View Full Version : Arizona and Immigration
I have no problems with them asking anyone who can't speak English for papers.
Right there?
Where did I say I had no problems with racism? That's a lie. Yes, I have a problem with ILLEGALS. I don't care what country they are from. I do not want ILLEGALS here. I do not want them leeching off the system, taking money from my future kids (who will be citizens), I do not want them selling drugs. I do not want ILLEGALS here. ONCE AGAIN, I DO NOT CARE WHAT RACE THEY ARE, THEY ARE ILLEGAL!
And you hate illegals so much that you are willing to have racist laws that treat perfectly LEGAL american citizens different because of the color of their skin, and you seriously see no problem with this do you?
Kellydancer
05-24-2010, 12:50 PM
Because if they are here, they need to speak English. I don't care what race, speak ENGLISH. Why is that hard for you to understand? That doesn't make me a racist.
Because if they are here, they need to speak English. I don't care what race, speak ENGLISH. Why is that hard for you to understand? That doesn't make me a racist.
You keep telling yourself that.
Kellydancer
05-24-2010, 12:53 PM
Fine, I'm a racist because I don't want illegals here, no matter the race. Incidentally, the Illinois Minutemen Militia (probably a racist organization according to you) is getting powerful here and most of the head people are Mexican, so I guess that makes them racist too. I am not against any race, just come here LEGALLY.
ArmySGT.
05-24-2010, 01:08 PM
How do you stop Illegal immigration?
One year in prison for each illegal immigrant working for a corporation, to be served by the CEO and Board of Directors.
Repeal the 14th Amendment or make a revision. Its not 1866 anymore.
Build the Fence.
Require that 51% of any Real property or Corporation is owned by an American Citizen.
Federal Law stating English is the official language. This has been debated before in American history and luckily for Great Britain we didn't choose Deutsch.
One year in prison for each illegal immigrant working for a corporation, to be served by the CEO and Board of Directors.
That would work wonderfully, too bad the side that is anti immigration is also pro corporation so it will never actually happen.
AudrinaN
05-24-2010, 01:11 PM
I have to say that I aree with Kellydancer.
Kellydancer
05-24-2010, 01:56 PM
That would work wonderfully, too bad the side that is anti immigration is also pro corporation so it will never actually happen.
I am not pro corporation (once again a generalization) and yes I would support going after corporations that hire illegals.
I am not pro corporation (once again a generalization) and yes I would support going after corporations that hire illegals.
I was actually speaking about the political parties, not individual people. Most people would be glad if they went after the corporations that hired illegals but neither party will go for that.
Mr Hyde
05-24-2010, 02:07 PM
YOU ARE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT. It doesn't matter when they ask for papers, they are not going to ask white people for EVER. But but but they must be stopped for other crimes first!!! who gives a flying fuck? you are making the law different for people based on their race, this isn't the fucking 60s anymore. There are no god damn "obvious warning signs that they might be illegal" that are not based on race, NONE.
You are so hell-bent on being PC that you can't see the forest for the trees. You won't admit you're wrong, so arguing with you is pointless, so I'll just ask you...how would YOU stop the inflow of illegal aliens from Mexico?
So far, you said you'd go after those that employ them. I'm good with that. Is that all you've got? What sort of onus do you put on employers? Is a SSN good enough? How about a green card or visa? Because all of those things can easily be forged. Now we have a whole crop of illegals with forged credentials who are working. What then?
Wait, maybe it's racist to ask these people to prove to employers that they're legal! Is that the next arrow in your ridiculous quiver?
If you are going to put a "those can be forged" restriction on any solution i bring up then this law and any other law is just as meaningless as anything i would come up with isn't it? Yes, shit can forged, if someone wants it bad enough. Wanting laws to be applicable to people of all races is not just "being PC".
Mr Hyde
05-24-2010, 02:18 PM
And you hate illegals so much that you are willing to have racist laws that treat perfectly LEGAL american citizens different because of the color of their skin, and you seriously see no problem with this do you?
Dude, stop cheapening that word. You're fucking it up for people who have real racial problems.
If hordes of poor, white trash Canadians started flooding the border, leaching the social welfare system and working off the books was happening in Minnesota, I'd want that stopped too. I'd support stopping people who say "eh" and "aboot" and asking them for their papers.
People like you allow REAL racism to happen because you just throw the word around when it's not really happening. You cheapen and make people tired of it. You're like Al Sharpton with Tawana Brawley, or the Duke lacrosse team rape accuser.
Dude, stop cheapening that word. You're fucking it up for people who have real racial problems.
If hordes of poor, white trash Canadians started flooding the border, leaching the social welfare system and working off the books was happening in Minnesota, I'd want that stopped too. I'd support stopping people who say "eh" and "aboot" and asking them for their papers.
People like you allow REAL racism to happen because you just throw the word around when it's not really happening. You cheapen and make people tired of it. You're like Al Sharpton with Tawana Brawley, or the Duke lacrosse team rape accuser.
Please explain to me how a law that treats people differently depending on their race is not racist.
AudrinaN
05-24-2010, 04:56 PM
This is so simple, yet being blown way out of proportion. . I'm lost just reading thru all the posts,er,arguments.
Mr Hyde
05-24-2010, 08:19 PM
Please explain to me how a law that treats people differently depending on their race is not racist.
It's not about race. If a white police office pulls over the car of a white person who can't speak English but appears capable of speaking great German...and that person has no ID and can't prove their citizenship, they're in trouble.
There, I win. I will answer no more questions about "race" as your race-baiting has just been proven false.
Now tell me what you'd do to solve the illegal alien problem. This is the second time I've asked.
It's not about race. If a white police office pulls over the car of a white person who can't speak English but appears capable of speaking great German...and that person has no ID and can't prove their citizenship, they're in trouble.
There, I win. I will answer no more questions about "race" as your race-baiting has just been proven false.
Now tell me what you'd do to solve the illegal alien problem. This is the second time I've asked.
Holy shit, i really don't know how to talk to someone who thinks the situation you just described is not racist. You are describing EXACTLY what makes this law racist and you are so god damn blind you can't even see it. Treating people different because of their skin color or because they speak another language is the problem with that law, your "win" proves ME right. The sad thing is that in your broken brain using a white person as an example makes it somehow not racist.
Deogol
05-24-2010, 09:19 PM
Fine, I'm a racist because I don't want illegals here, no matter the race. Incidentally, the Illinois Minutemen Militia (probably a racist organization according to you) is getting powerful here and most of the head people are Mexican, so I guess that makes them racist too. I am not against any race, just come here LEGALLY.
There comes a point where it is obvious continuing a line of thought is going no where. People see the world from different perspectives and unfortunately that is just the way it is. There is no changing their minds. Have your say, they'll have their say. Those of us reading have already chosen our sides.
Mr Hyde
05-24-2010, 10:36 PM
Holy shit, i really don't know how to talk to someone who thinks the situation you just described is not racist. You are describing EXACTLY what makes this law racist and you are so god damn blind you can't even see it. Treating people different because of their skin color or because they speak another language is the problem with that law, your "win" proves ME right. The sad thing is that in your broken brain using a white person as an example makes it somehow not racist.
Third time...what's your solution?
If you don't answer, or your answer is yet another nonsensical non-sequitur, then I will assume you have no answer and agree that the Arizona law is a great idea.
Kellydancer
05-24-2010, 11:18 PM
There comes a point where it is obvious continuing a line of thought is going no where. People see the world from different perspectives and unfortunately that is just the way it is. There is no changing their minds. Have your say, they'll have their say. Those of us reading have already chosen our sides.
You're right, I can keep talking about this on and on and it'll revert back to the same thing.
Third time...what's your solution?
If you don't answer, or your answer is yet another nonsensical non-sequitur, then I will assume you have no answer and agree that the Arizona law is a great idea.
I answered the first time you asked, if you are not going to bother to read that is not my problem.
PRETTYdangerous
05-25-2010, 04:51 AM
I figured I'd say this because I actually LIVE in AZ, have my entire life, pay taxes here and vote here. (Can I say BTW I think it's hilarious that nearly every single post in this threat thus far has contained incorrect information ie; IDs, SSNs and Birth Certificates as Proof of Citizenship)
I'm actually scared to be out and about in the wrong parts of town because I have a legitimate fear of being pulled over or questioned simply because I'm not white.
... and no I'm not Mexican either.
A person in the state of Arizona can be pulled over solely for the color of their skin.
If that in an of itself is not racist, then what is? Should I have no proof of my citizenship then it is perfectly legal to be held, FOR NO OTHER REASON, than the suspicion of being an Illegal.
I, as a legal resident of this state, find it sad that I have to fear the people that are paid to protect me.
shasta
05-25-2010, 08:47 AM
I lived in Washington DC most of my life, then moved to AZ. I don't see what speaking English has to do with being a citizen.
ArmySGT.
05-26-2010, 04:55 PM
I lived in Washington DC most of my life, then moved to AZ. I don't see what speaking English has to do with being a citizen.
The Laws and Courts are conducted in English. Just sayin.
The Laws and Courts are conducted in English. Just sayin.
If you don't speak english translators are provided for you. Just sayin.
ArmySGT.
05-26-2010, 05:03 PM
If you don't speak english translators are provided for you. Just sayin.
At the Taxpayers expense for a non citizen. just sayin.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 05:06 PM
If they wanted to be serious about stopping illegal immigration they would make the law apply to everyone, not just brown people. Drop the "suspicion of being illegal" racist bullshit and make white people have to carry their birth certificate, i guarantee you the law wouldn't last a day.
Not everyone has a birth certificate, white, brown, or otherwise.....
At the Taxpayers expense for a non citizen. just sayin.
Because no matter how hard you cry english is not the official language of the united states, its just the language most people speak. I bet not one of you will feel the same about learning spanish when most people speak it in a few decades.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 05:25 PM
I have no problems with them asking anyone who can't speak English for papers.
Well I'm glad my dear sweet LEGAL grandma, who spoke no english, passed away before a law like this could get enacted. I would have to commit some crime against any police that harrassed the sweet old lady for ID because she didn't understand him.
Mind you, she was a caucasian but everyone tried to speak to her in spanish anyway when we went places. High level of assumptions going around.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 05:32 PM
Because if they are here, they need to speak English. I don't care what race, speak ENGLISH. Why is that hard for you to understand? That doesn't make me a racist.
It takes time for someone to learn english. Also, as humans age, the capacity to learn new languages greatly diminishes. That's why an 8 year old coming from a foreign language country will likely speak their language and english perfectly, their parents will speak english with an accent, and the elderly may never be able to learn beyond a few words.
How many foreign languages do you speak and how long did it take you to learn? Its not that simple. People that are here LEGALLY do not always immediately speak conversational english, from many countries.
We live in Texas and the border patrol ALWAYS harrassed my family coming back from the gulf coast because they heard my dad speak with an accent...even though we don't particularly look Mexican and we certainly do not speak spanish (well, I do, but that was learned here in the US).
My two comments to you Kelly are not about the law, its about the American "speak perfect english or GTFO" attitude, which IS xenophobic and sometimes racist.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 05:36 PM
How do you stop Illegal immigration?
One year in prison for each illegal immigrant working for a corporation, to be served by the CEO and Board of Directors.
.
Corporations, business owners, rich board of director sitting-ass politicians (cough, Kay Bailey Hutchinson) do not WANT to lose the slave labor that is illegal immigration. They do not care about the tax burdon on illegals because they have the means to find as many tax-shelters for their money as possible. Its us, the middle class that are paying for their care.
The people in power are creating fear in the minds of the average citizen to fuel anti-immigration sentiment whilst profiting from the toils of illegals at the same time.
How many middle class taxpaying people have a staff of illegal maids, nannies, and gardeners? Not so many....
rubyredlipsss
05-26-2010, 05:46 PM
i think my head would explode if i tried to enter this debate. so i'm just gonna say, i agree with ks_stevia.
also, can we please stop saying prove your citizenship...when clearly there are many people here legally with green cards and visas, but are not citizens. and that illegals don't pay taxes...um so they never buy anything at stores, where items are taxed?
ArmySGT.
05-26-2010, 06:03 PM
also, can we please stop saying prove your citizenship...when clearly there are many people here legally with green cards and visas, but are not citizens. vThey did prove their Citizenship and paid their fees, no one has a problem with them as they are here LEGALLY. They are called Naturalized Citizens or Resident Aliens and both pay taxes and are here Legally.
and that illegals don't pay taxes...um so they never buy anything at stores, where items are taxed?Most States don't have Sales tax. Some like Oregon have Property taxes and Income taxes, but no Sales tax.
Just to be clear. It is not ok to be in the United States illegally; even if you live in a State that has a sales tax (and give something back that way).
When I lived in Spain I had to pay for a Professional bilingual Lawyer for things like a bank account, public utilities, and such.
I was the foreigner there and can't see why Spaniards should be forced to accommodate me.
Melonie
05-26-2010, 06:08 PM
and that illegals don't pay taxes...um so they never buy anything at stores, where items are taxed?
This is a famous 'red herring' argument ... that the payment of state sales taxes and/or Social Security taxes and/or gasoline taxes in some way offsets the cost of providing educational / health care / social services for those illegal aliens. For the most part, funding for education, health care ( medicaid ), food stamps etc. come from federal and state income taxes, which illegal aliens DO NOT PAY.
Keep in mind that sales taxes, Social Security taxes and/or gasoline taxes might amount to a couple of thousand dollars per year for an illegal alien. In comparison, the cost of educating an illegal immigrant child is on the order of $12,000 per year ... the cost of providing medicaid benefits is on the order of $5,000 per year ... the cost of providing food stamps and other typical social welfare benefits ( such as subsidized rent, subsidized utilities etc. ) is on the order of $ 10,000 per year. Most people would consider receiving up to $27,000 per year worth of services at a cost of $2,000 is a damn good deal.
Of course, middle class taxpayers who wind up paying $30,000+ per year in federal and state income taxes on top of sales taxes, Social Security taxes and gasoline taxes, and who are not eligible to receive any of these benefits, might feel differently.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Most States don't have Sales tax.
All states but 6 have sales tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States
Also I believe that cities and counties can impose sales tax even if the state does not.
Sheeet, I wish there was a no sales-tax state near me. Texas has no income tax so our sales and property taxes are mad high. Wish I never bought property here, fuckers.
ArmySGT.
05-26-2010, 07:14 PM
All states but 6 have sales tax.
Also I believe that cities and counties can impose sales tax even if the state does not.
Sheeet, I wish there was a no sales-tax state near me. Texas has no income tax so our sales and property taxes are mad high. Wish I never bought property here, fuckers.
Wow things have changed. Better to have sales tax and no property tax. If I stay in the States I will be moving to Nevada.
Kellydancer
05-26-2010, 07:23 PM
It takes time for someone to learn english. Also, as humans age, the capacity to learn new languages greatly diminishes. That's why an 8 year old coming from a foreign language country will likely speak their language and english perfectly, their parents will speak english with an accent, and the elderly may never be able to learn beyond a few words.
How many foreign languages do you speak and how long did it take you to learn? Its not that simple. People that are here LEGALLY do not always immediately speak conversational english, from many countries.
We live in Texas and the border patrol ALWAYS harrassed my family coming back from the gulf coast because they heard my dad speak with an accent...even though we don't particularly look Mexican and we certainly do not speak spanish (well, I do, but that was learned here in the US).
My two comments to you Kelly are not about the law, its about the American "speak perfect english or GTFO" attitude, which IS xenophobic and sometimes racist.
I know it takes time to learn English, I taught ESL years ago. However, many of the illegals don't want to learn English. I've seen it many times working in various jobs. If someone wants to come here they need to learn English. Btw, I once went out on a date with a guy who could barely speak English. I spoke Spanish to him (yes I speak Spanish, I also speak a little bit of French too). He was trying to learn English. My boyfriend's mother has a strong Italian accent yet she learned English (she came as an adult). He really dislikes illegals because of the ones who refuse to learn English. It's not a matter of learning perfect English, but rather trying to learn.
And no, I do not think it's fair that public aid here (and probably other states) requires all employees to speak Spanish. Yes, in Illinois illegals can get assistance.
eagle2
05-26-2010, 07:28 PM
This is a famous 'red herring' argument ... that the payment of state sales taxes and/or Social Security taxes and/or gasoline taxes in some way offsets the cost of providing educational / health care / social services for those illegal aliens. For the most part, funding for education, health care ( medicaid ), food stamps etc. come from federal and state income taxes, which illegal aliens DO NOT PAY.
YES THEY DO. Not only do most illegal aliens pay federal and state income taxes. They're not eligible for Medicaid or Food Stamps, so if anything, most are paying for others' benefits that they are not eligible to receive themselves.
From:
http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.
One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.
What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
KS_Stevia
05-26-2010, 07:32 PM
. If someone wants to come here they need to learn English. .
Sure, for kids and adults. But its pretty much impossible for senior citizens to learn a new language. Anyway, it wasn't a problem for us, we took care of her and she managed to get around for 10 years without learning any english (not that she didn't try, just not able to learn an entire new language at 70 years of age).
If someone wants to come here they need to learn English.
You keep saying that but it is nothing more than your own opinion, not something laws should be based on.
Kellydancer
05-26-2010, 07:51 PM
Sure, for kids and adults. But its pretty much impossible for senior citizens to learn a new language. Anyway, it wasn't a problem for us, we took care of her and she managed to get around for 10 years without learning any english (not that she didn't try, just not able to learn an entire new language at 70 years of age).
But would be the purpose of a senior citizen to come here unless they either have relatives taking care of them (ok I get this) or coming here for freebies (this is wrong).
Kellydancer
05-26-2010, 07:52 PM
You keep saying that but it is nothing more than your own opinion, not something laws should be based on.
So I guess you are fine with people not speaking English getting free welfare? Well, I'm not. Come here LEGALLY and learn English. Even if one can only learn basic English, fine. And no, I am NOT fine with illegals who don't learn English.
So I guess you are fine with people not speaking English getting free welfare? Well, I'm not. Come here LEGALLY and learn English. Even if one can only learn basic English, fine. And no, I am NOT fine with illegals who don't learn English.
I don't see how the language they speak has absolutely anything to do with getting welfare. Illegals don't get benefits first of all and second you keep adding that "and learn english" in there like its some kind of law when it's not. They don't have to learn english if they don't want too.
Kellydancer
05-26-2010, 08:14 PM
I don't see how the language they speak has absolutely anything to do with getting welfare. Illegals don't get benefits first of all and second you keep adding that "and learn english" in there like its some kind of law when it's not. They don't have to learn english if they don't want too.
Yes illegals can get welfare in Illinois through their kids (who may or may not be citizens). Illinois has many programs and they say regardless of immigration status. Then if they don't want to learn English what would be the purpose of coming here? I speak Spanish and if I go to Mexico I'll speak it. Sure, they don't have to learn English, but we shouldn't have to learn Spanish to cater to them. Let them learn how to survive in a country where nothing is bilingual. After all, if you go to Mexico you better learn Spanish.
rubyredlipsss
05-26-2010, 08:34 PM
also to those who keep saying well besides building a fence and kicking out all the illegal immigrants...what's the solution? imo, simply put, for a real long term sustainable solutions south of us look at nafta and the effects it's had. we need to be looking at our governments actions and american corporations who have taken work from the us for cheaper labor in mexico and central american countries and exploited the workers.
Kellydancer
05-26-2010, 08:54 PM
also to those who keep saying well besides building a fence and kicking out all the illegal immigrants...what's the solution? imo, simply put, for a real long term sustainable solutions south of us look at nafta and the effects it's had. we need to be looking at our governments actions and american corporations who have taken work from the us for cheaper labor in mexico and central american countries and exploited the workers.
True. NAFTA screwed over the American people big time. Because of that I know many long time workers who lost jobs and never recovered.
Melonie
05-27-2010, 12:21 AM
Yes illegals can get welfare in Illinois through their kids (who may or may not be citizens). Illinois has many programs and they say regardless of immigration status.
yes ... the same is true of many other states. This is also the reason that there are so many pregnant women racing to get across the border before they go into labor ! If their child is born on the north side of the line it is automatically granted citizenship ... which in turn provides a legal route for the illegal parents to secure social welfare benefits and avoid deportation. And even in circumstances where the child is not a US citizen, many states will allow the parents to sign up for social welfare benefits ... either wilfully or by failure to check immigration status.
bem401
05-27-2010, 05:52 AM
You keep saying that but it is nothing more than your own opinion, not something laws should be based on.
What's the first thing you'd try to do if you moved to a new country?
Learn the language (not fight learning the language). I concede it takes time but why should people here have to accommodate people unwilling to learn the language we speak.
No matter what race that person is, if he or she is here illegally, they should be deported and invited to re-enter through the proper channels the way my ancestors did like 150 years ago.
Melonie
05-27-2010, 08:02 AM
I concede it takes time but why should people here have to accommodate people unwilling to learn the language we speak.
because the US Supreme Court said so ! Thanks to that ruling, major cities are legally required to provide all sorts of different language documents / interpreters etc. While Spanish is the major 'other' language, legally it extends to Farsi, Mandarin etc.
sugartaste
05-27-2010, 10:43 AM
Just an FYI, it is typically not the actual immigrants who assimilate fully into American culture (including learning and/or speaking English), but their children. This is true of ANY foreign group who ever immigrated here, from the Irish on. I have yet to meet anyone in my age group (let's say, 20-35), whose parents immigrated here and mostly speak their home language, who DIDN'T speak fluent English. Not to mention, it is not uncommon for foreign groups to remain isolated in their own communities, speaking their own language, but still being able to communicate in English if necessary. Ever been to Chinatown, NYC???? Or Lancaster Pa, with their huge Amish community? Should we demand to see their birth certificates and green cards as well??
Part of why I love America is because we are so diverse, people from all over the world come to live here and learn from one another. Cultural homogenezation is overrated.