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yoda57us
09-24-2010, 05:15 PM
I love going into restaurants where friends work, ordering food, eating it, and then leaving without paying the tab. I mean, they're friends, right? Friends don't want you to pay them in their place of business. ::)

Honestly this is not a very good analogy. Not paying the check in a restaurant is stealing. Hanging out in a club and not spending any money, while not looked upon with great favor by dancers, is not.

A better comparison would be if you went to that same restaurant where your friend was working, ordered a big meal and several rounds of drinks, paid the check but didn't leave a tip...

KS_Stevia
09-24-2010, 06:19 PM
Stripperweb death match!

Yoda vs BEM

In this corner.....

Meh, yoda won this a long time ago by having fun and being honest with himself. Men in a stripclub are very easily and narrowly defined:

1. Employees
2. Customers
3. Non-spending wastes of space

Even the nicer non-spending bar regulars would be shunned, if the strippers had any say in it. But a bar is a bar and strippers know that the owners have a business to run when guys come in and only pay for drinks.

For the ones that pay nothing...well, it makes it look like there are warm bodies in the club. Customers, of all sorts, tend to shy away from empty bars, clubs, and restaurants.

But really, REALLY...how hard is it to be a well respected regular SC customer? Don't bother the girls, tip regularly. Even if some bar trolls don't want to get dances, as long as they are sitting there leering for free, they are resented. Come in, bring $20, stay an hour, tip it all out to each dancer onstage. Leave.

KS_Stevia
09-24-2010, 06:22 PM
Honestly this is not a very good analogy. Not paying the check in a restaurant is stealing. Hanging out in a club and not spending any money, while not looked upon with great favor by dancers, is not.

A better comparison would be if you went to that same restaurant where your friend was working, ordered a big meal and several rounds of drinks, paid the check but didn't leave a tip...

Or, even better...going to a bar when its dead and not many customers are around. The bartender is captive to working there and staying behind the bar. So why not rattle on and on and on while bartender has to sit there with a smile on his face in case his manager is watching or other customers come in there.

And while you're at it, don't order any drinks for the bartender, and certainly don't tip him for his time listening to you.

Sure the bartender will occasionally be bored and engage you in conversation, since you're sitting there and he has to stand there anyway. Doesn't make you friends, doesn't make him think you're a douche bag. He is just being professional and going off on you isn't worth risking his job.

Is that really friendship though?

hockeybobby
09-24-2010, 07:44 PM
Come in, bring $20, stay an hour, tip it all out to each dancer onstage. Leave.

Add: order the daily featured meal, and tip the bartender, waitress, and cook, and you have a typical lunchtime visit for me. I do get the occasional lapdance if a favourite is working.

ilbbaicnl
09-24-2010, 10:45 PM
Believe me or disbelieve me, I never intended to find myself in the position in which I do. Years ago, I used to spend quite heavily in the club on certain girls. My preference was strictly Asian but many of their friends were not. I spent time at the bar with these friends if my fave wasn't available or wasn't working. They knew who I was there to see and were smart enough to realize I was not a potential customer. Hell, they'd even inform me when a new Asian girl was in the club. Over the years (yes, years) I became fairly friendly with them. When my time as a customer to the girls I was visiting ended, I was still friendly with them and their friends. I now found myself in a situation with a bunch of girls I was friendly with but not interested in dancing with and they were not interested in dancing with me. What would you have me do? BTW, I'm quite generous with my time and money with friends away from the club.

I never entered a club with the intention of seeking RL friendships and would never advise anyone to consider doing that. It would be idiotic. I now consider going in to kill an hour if my friends are on, I'm bored, and I think my friends might be bored. And I'm talking about some of the friends I've never been a customer to. They even text me to do just that on occasion so they clearly don't think of me as some sort of parasite. I haven't even been to my club of choice for a couple of months now despite being texted a couple of times to swing by. I've been to one club I generally never visit because one of the dancers I'm friends with in RL wanted me to accompany her there. My friends are all on the verge of retirement from the business and I spend significant time with some of them now away from the club so the frequency of my visits has declined. Once they leave for good, I think I'll find myself hard-pressed to find a reason to bother going in. I'm not interested in being a customer again nor am I interested in wasting anyone's time.

The reason I do what I presently do is because it is what presently works for my friends and I.

Suppose your friend begs you to go see a movie. You don't really want to see it, you just go to keep you're friend company. They won't let you in for free, even if you promise to keep your eyes closed.

When you go to a strip club, you should go with the honest intention of buying dances and/or tipping dancers. If there is honestly no dancer in the club that you find attractive enough, it's fine to get up and leave. You don't have to do this, often in life no will force you to do the honorable thing, it's left to your own conscience.

Weird as it may sound, maybe the best analogy is that it's like going to church every Sunday but never giving a penny to the church.

The dancers could see you when they're not working. If they won't it's a pretty limited sort of friendship. Many dedicated salespeople will never give up on a prospect, they just switch to a very soft sell and continue indefinitely. Good chance that's what's really going on. Some guys feel like it's like watching TV, since you listen to the ad, that entitles you to watch the show for free. The big difference is that the companies running the ads on TV would agree with you. But the dancers giving you the show by and large (as you can see here) do not agree it's OK for you to just listen to the ad with no intent to buy.

Hopper
09-25-2010, 12:12 AM
...you insist of muddying issues here repeatedly with irrelevant, inane repetitive facts about occurrences in your existence as a strip club non-customer that have nothing to do with the topic at hand most of the time.

He can't be muddying the waters if it is not related to the topic.


... I'm not actually confused about any aspect of your relationship with any dancer bem because I really don't give a flying fuck.

If you care about him muddying the waters, you do care about his relations with dancers in that sense.

This issue with bem comes up so often that it is about time it got a thread of its own so that it can be resolved with a long and focused discussion and/or not keep coming up in other threads.

ilbbaicnl
09-25-2010, 03:20 AM
...

This issue with bem comes up so often that it is about time it got a thread of its own so that it can be resolved with a long and focused discussion and/or not keep coming up in other threads.

Although threads ostensably are limited to a topic, the practical reality, on every message board I've ever seen, is that they are conversations. They meander from topic to topic, as good conversations often do. It's swimming upstream against a strong current to try to change that.

Hopper
09-25-2010, 05:01 AM
^This is more like having two conversations at once. I'd just like the off-topic conversation to be moved to it's own thread. It never goes anywhere in other threads. If bem is just being evasive, at least he can be evasive in just one thread and others can give him a hard way to go in that.

yoda57us
09-25-2010, 06:35 AM
^This is more like having two conversations at once.

Agreed but that's pretty much the way things work. This thread is almost four months old. As threads run out of gas they tend to go off topic.

yoda57us
09-25-2010, 06:40 AM
He can't be muddying the waters if it is not related to the topic.

I know you are bored with this thread but seriously, are we down to playing semantics games?


If you care about him muddying the waters, you do care about his relations with dancers in that sense.


OK, you're either in or your out. I'm not going to debate my responses to another poster's thoughts when the guy trying to start the debate wants the thread to be moved...

Promnesiac
09-25-2010, 12:23 PM
Honestly this is not a very good analogy. Not paying the check in a restaurant is stealing. Hanging out in a club and not spending any money, while not looked upon with great favor by dancers, is not.

A better comparison would be if you went to that same restaurant where your friend was working, ordered a big meal and several rounds of drinks, paid the check but didn't leave a tip...

Ok, good point.

bem401
09-26-2010, 10:45 AM
At least Yoda is honest about what he wants and pays accordingly. He's the customer who "gets it". You Bem, from your posts don't. You claim in many threads you are "friends" with these dancers but I haven't found many examples of this friendship beyond the basic "we see each other outside". This tells me nothing. If I was in a store and saw a customer he could say we saw each other outside of the club. I also had a few friends who were friends long before dancing often came in the clubs, but didn't pay me for dances because that was weird (they got dances from other women).

If this sounds harsh it's because I am tired of customers (you aren't the only one who does this) who claim they got a date with a dancer even though they never paid or that they were "friends". Do you know how many guys have come into clubs claiming they were a friend of mine though I never met them before the club? Let me put it this way. Customers weren't usually friends (notable exception I mention frequently). Guys that never paid had no chance with me talking to them, let alone a date. Guys that were actual non club friends that came into clubs I had them get dances from other girls.

First off, bumping into someone outside the club definitely doesn't count as being friends outside the club. Paying someone to spend time with you outside the club would not count either though it would certainly show the guy is at least trusted. Meeting for lunch where the guy pays for no more than the lunch (if even that) is a step in the friendship direction. In my eyes, what does count would be making plans to be in each other's company IRL where you behave like the SC doesn't exist and you do it more than once. You don't have to pay $$$ or buy gifts for her time any more frequently than you would a RL friend and each other's residence, friends, and occasionally even family are not strategically concealed from each other indefinitely. In other words, the fact that she is (or was) a dancer and you met in a SC has nothing to do with your interaction.

I am intentionally vague about what my friendships involve because I don't want things to be spun into something they are not and then repeated as such. you see me continually forced to correct people's interpretations on this board.

bem401
09-26-2010, 12:15 PM
Bem, I present myself as only myself. I don't claim normalcy or maturity. I just do what works for me. You're questioning my morality? Hah! That's a good one!

Where did I mention morality? I just said you present yourself as speaking ex cathedra in your pontifications. On top of that, WTF, you decided to call yourself yoda for chrissake! That could only mean you think you resmble him physically or mentally and if you did think you look like him, I doubt you'd be pointing that out .



See my post #137. Those are direct contradictory quotes from you on this very thread bem...

As far as I can determine, there only two women of the many you have mentioned in past emails to me that I know well. One of them has never seen you OTC as a friend or anything else and the other hasn't returned your calls in years.

Actually the two pairs of women you refer to in post #137 represent 4 different women so I am not contradicting myself at all. They are also not the two you mention knowing well. That means the girls I mention and the two you mention mean we are talking about 6 different women here so there is no contradiction.

And just to be clear, the one that has never met me outside the club has never been asked to meet me outside the club but she is the one of the ones who text me to come in when guys like you aren't there to pay for her time. The other one I haven't tried calling since the last time she called me, which was a few years ago.

The really interesting thing here is you've often gone on and on in other threads about not discussing either other dancers or customers with dancers, yet you have obviously done that as far as I'm concerned.



So, to be clear, you showed up on a thread devoted to the topic of dancers being interested in dating customers and dropped your usual load of irrelevant crap about your IRL dancer friends who you don't date but also don't spend any money in the club. You, once again, feel the need to disrupt a topic that you clearly have nothing to contribute to by flaunting your perceived superiority complex based on the theory that you are somehow above guys who go into strip cubs and actually spend money.

Trust me bem, I can live with my decision to call BS when I read it...

Actually I entered this thread only when the issue (through Hopper, I believe) went to whether or not being an active customer influenced a dancer's decision whether or not to meet a guy away from the club. I offered my observations as someone who has been on both sides of the spender/non-spender line. The fact that I said "In my experience..." put you on the attack like it always seems to do. I still maintain the girls I was an active spending customer to were far more reluctant to agree to meet in RL. I will however concede that I was acquainted with the girls who agreed for years whereas I had only known for a few months the ones who refused.

As far as superiority is concerned, I'll grant you this : as a customer, you are superior to me, hands down.

bem401
09-26-2010, 12:18 PM
A better comparison would be if you went to that same restaurant where your friend was working, ordered a big meal and several rounds of drinks, paid the check but didn't leave a tip...

Should you still tip them if you are not sitting in their section and not taking up any of their time except the time when they can find absolutely nothing else to do?

Oh and Hopper, I disdain of this as much as you. It seems the fact that it is me posting something that riles some people. They attack me more than what I write.

Kellydancer
09-26-2010, 12:59 PM
First off, bumping into someone outside the club definitely doesn't count as being friends outside the club. Paying someone to spend time with you outside the club would not count either though it would certainly show the guy is at least trusted. Meeting for lunch where the guy pays for no more than the lunch (if even that) is a step in the friendship direction. In my eyes, what does count would be making plans to be in each other's company IRL where you behave like the SC doesn't exist and you do it more than once. You don't have to pay $$$ or buy gifts for her time any more frequently than you would a RL friend and each other's residence, friends, and occasionally even family are not strategically concealed from each other indefinitely. In other words, the fact that she is (or was) a dancer and you met in a SC has nothing to do with your interaction.

I am intentionally vague about what my friendships involve because I don't want things to be spun into something they are not and then repeated as such. you see me continually forced to correct people's interpretations on this board.

No, bumping into someone outside of the club doesn't count as seeing a friend, but have seen that happen. Guys often think if a woman is interested she's friendly. I happen to be friendly to most people. If I was to make plans to spend time with a guy out of the club, then that might be a friendship. However, being that I've done many parties for customers outside of the club doesn't mean these guys are my friends. They aren't, they are my customers.

The only case I state as someone being my friend is the one I often mention. We would get together and discuss other things. We would go to dinner or the show and spend time together. He's met my family and he knows the real me. In fact awhile back he asked me what my stage name was at the club we met because he couldn't remember it! He's never paid me for anything sexual, nor has that ever come up. We both assume that when we sleep together it will be because we want to.

This is why I question guys who claim they are friends with dancers without more information. I never would have gotten to known him if he wasn't a customer. If he had come in the club and never tipped I would never have spoken to him. I know dancers and 90% of them (or more) would never talk to a customer without being tipped.

ilbbaicnl
09-26-2010, 01:12 PM
Should you still tip them if you are not sitting in their section and not taking up any of their time except the time when they can find absolutely nothing else to do?

Oh and Hopper, I disdain of this as much as you. It seems the fact that it is me posting something that riles some people. They attack me more than what I write.

If you're in the club, you're in the dancers' section though.

Ask one of your dancer friends "if I get a dance, do you care if I get it from you or not?" If she says "pick whoever you like, whether it's me or someone else", you can be pretty sure she's really your friend. My dancer friend always made a point of telling me I did not have to get any dances from her. Some dancers encouraged me to come to the club "just to hang out". But I didn't, I felt pretty sure they would try (and succeed) to get me to spend money beyond my budget.

bem401
09-26-2010, 01:20 PM
No, bumping into someone outside of the club doesn't count as seeing a friend, but have seen that happen. Guys often think if a woman is interested she's friendly. I happen to be friendly to most people. If I was to make plans to spend time with a guy out of the club, then that might be a friendship. However, being that I've done many parties for customers outside of the club doesn't mean these guys are my friends. They aren't, they are my customers.

The only case I state as someone being my friend is the one I often mention. We would get together and discuss other things. We would go to dinner or the show and spend time together. He's met my family and he knows the real me. In fact awhile back he asked me what my stage name was at the club we met because he couldn't remember it! He's never paid me for anything sexual, nor has that ever come up. We both assume that when we sleep together it will be because we want to.

This is why I question guys who claim they are friends with dancers without more information. I never would have gotten to known him if he wasn't a customer. If he had come in the club and never tipped I would never have spoken to him. I know dancers and 90% of them (or more) would never talk to a customer without being tipped.

You and I seem to be nearly 100% in agreement. Over the years, some of my faves and I became RL friends. I also became friends with some of their dancer friends. The dancer/customer thing just stopped working or never existed in the first place. The relationship I've had IRL with them is pretty much the same as what you described. A couple even decided that being in the club simultaneously made them uncomfortable.

bem401
09-26-2010, 01:40 PM
If you're in the club, you're in the dancers' section though.

Not if you're paying zero attention to them. I would agree that once you start interacting with them or watching their stage show, you ought to start tipping. I was in the club yesterday for an hour, don't recall even glancing at the stage. Did buy a drink though for a dancer I'd previously been introduced to in a regular bar.



Ask one of your dancer friends "if I get a dance, do you care if I get it from you or not?" If she says "pick whoever you like, whether it's me or someone else", you can be pretty sure she's really your friend. My dancer friend always made a point of telling me I did not have to get any dances from her. Some dancers encouraged me to come to the club "just to hang out". But I didn't, I felt pretty sure they would try (and succeed) to get me to spend money beyond my budget.

Most of the girls I consider RL friends (not club acquaintances) will not dance for me and couldn't care less if I decided to dance with another girl afaik. Given that, if they are encouraging me to dance with another girl, aren't they being more of a friend to her than me?

yoda57us
09-26-2010, 08:44 PM
On top of that, WTF, you decided to call yourself yoda for chrissake! That could only mean you think you resmble him physically or mentally and if you did think you look like him, I doubt you'd be pointing that out .

Actually I picked the handle because yoda comes off as a know-it-all smart ass...


The really interesting thing here is you've often gone on and on in other threads about not discussing either other dancers or customers with dancers, yet you have obviously done that as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, so now you are a customer?

Suffice to say when you gossip about someone you should always know who you are gossiping to. When you don't it may come back to bite you in the ass...

Athenathefabulous
09-26-2010, 09:27 PM
I was in the club yesterday for an hour, don't recall even glancing at the stage.






I think im missing something here, why were you in the strip club?

yoda57us
09-26-2010, 09:31 PM
I think im missing something here, why were you in the strip club?

LOL, Here we go again...

rubyredlipsss
09-26-2010, 10:47 PM
i can't believe this thread is still going.

Hopper
09-27-2010, 12:32 AM
Should you still tip them if you are not sitting in their section and not taking up any of their time except the time when they can find absolutely nothing else to do?

Oh and Hopper, I disdain of this as much as you. It seems the fact that it is me posting something that riles some people. They attack me more than what I write.

It wasn't meant to be a dig at you. It only becomes an argument when others challenge what you say. That is not necessarily your fault.

I don't understand why the issue of being friends with strippers is important. Why would I especially wish to be friends with a stripper?

bem401
09-27-2010, 05:17 AM
I think im missing something here, why were you in the strip club?

Since you ask, to meet a friend coming down from Boston to go to an event elsewhere. It is an easy location to find.

bem401
09-27-2010, 05:37 AM
It wasn't meant to be a dig at you. It only becomes an argument when others challenge what you say. That is not necessarily your fault.

I didn't take your comment as such. The fact that I am no longer a customer doesn't make me less knowledgeable about what goes on in the clubs and shouldn't disqualify me from weighing in. At one point in time, I was every bit the customer as anyone else here.


I don't understand why the issue of being friends with strippers is important. Why would I especially wish to be friends with a stripper?

Never said it was important. Never said it was my goal or should be any patron's goal. In my case, I may have met them because they are strippers, but I'm not friends with them for that reason.

bem401
09-27-2010, 05:53 AM
Suffice to say when you gossip about someone you should always know who you are gossiping to. When you don't it may come back to bite you in the ass...

Particularly if the person being spoken to is so engrossed in the world of dancers, escorts, and pornography that he can't see innocent statements and pictures as such.

Hopper
09-27-2010, 06:18 AM
I didn't take your comment as such. The fact that I am no longer a customer doesn't make me less knowledgeable about what goes on in the clubs and shouldn't disqualify me from weighing in. At one point in time, I was every bit the customer as anyone else here.

I think what others are challenging you on is your claims about knowing strippers out of the clubs. I don't know why they challenge you about it though, unless they go to the same clubs and know the same people. Some of it is to do with your comments about it supposedly being inconsistent.


Never said it was important. Never said it was my goal or should be any patron's goal. In my case, I may have met them because they are strippers, but I'm not friends with them for that reason.

Sorry - that wasn't addressed to you, it was in response to this whole discussion about friends with dancers out of the club, which comes up time after time in these forums. I just don't get what is so special about being friends with strippers that people always discuss it.

yoda57us
09-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Particularly if the person being spoken to is so engrossed in the world of dancers, escorts, and pornography that he can't see innocent statements and pictures as such.

Ah bem you are so predictable. In spite of your repeated assumptions to the contrary, I have a very firm grip on reality and an acute understanding of the difference between friendship and P4P. Since my texts aren't the ones getting ignored I think I'm on solid ground.