Log in

View Full Version : Balance of Power



Pages : 1 [2] 3

KS_Stevia
08-05-2010, 06:12 PM
If there's been any balance of power in the last 5-10 years, I'd say it's been in favor of the club owners, who've reacted to dwindling attendance by raising the price on everything (cover, drinks, dances, CR's, house fees, percentage of dances/CR's sold) to stick it to the suckers that remain.
.

You think? In 1997, a drink at my Houston SC cost $9. Now, they regularly have $2 u-call-t nights. Even on weekends, a brand name well drink isn't more than $6 or so.

Also, tons of discounts for cover charges and no cover nights.

Dances in Texas have been the same price the last 15-20 years. By average inflation, they should have doubled by now.

House fees...FUCK fucking house fees. That's how the owners are getting away with the drink discounts to get more bodies in the door. Dislike.>:(

lopaw
08-05-2010, 08:13 PM
You think? In 1997, a drink at my Houston SC cost $9. Now, they regularly have $2 u-call-t nights. Even on weekends, a brand name well drink isn't more than $6 or so.

Also, tons of discounts for cover charges and no cover nights.

Dances in Texas have been the same price the last 15-20 years. By average inflation, they should have doubled by now.

House fees...FUCK fucking house fees. That's how the owners are getting away with the drink discounts to get more bodies in the door. Dislike.>:(


I noticed here in L.A. that in the beginning of this recession clubs initially started hiking prices for anything and everything. But as business declined even more due to this, the smarter clubs have been offering more incentives to customers - not only to get 'em in the door (free parking, no cover), but to keep 'em inside as well (constant 2fer's, drink specials, giveaways, etc.).

rickdugan
08-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Dude, your on the wrong site in that case...

Dancers are managing the process. They choose to talk about it here. What part of that don't you get? You walk into your favorite club and there are girls there waiting to take your money right? Well, if they where not "managing the process" those clubs would be empty except for all of the newbies who haven't been dancing long enough to have ever been pissed off by a customer...meaning that they are probably working their very first shift!

Yoda, no comment on the lap dog pic? I was particularly proud of finding a lap dog with ears and facial contours so similar to your avatar ;D

And are you dealing with the same girls I am? I may not have a bevy of retired strippers clogging my phone memory, but I have enough experience doing this to see a dramatic difference in the personalities of strippers in the 'old days" vs. now. While there was a lot of crap back then also, overall there seems to be a lot more girls openly displaying bitterness and desparation today.

Somewhat understandable? Perhaps. Healthy? Of course not.

If your definition of "managing the process" is simply the ability to show up, then I can't diagree. But personally I believe that someone filled with bitterness and despair is being managed by the situation, not the other way around.

But, of course, perhaps I'm being overly tough on the bitter ones.

yoda57us
08-06-2010, 12:52 PM
If your definition of "managing the process" is simply the ability to show up, then I can't diagree. But personally I believe that someone filled with bitterness and despair is being managed by the situation, not the other way around.

Rick, the simple fact is that, the vast majority of the time, you have absolutely no idea what a dancer may think of you, her job, her life or her customers when you are buying dances or even when you are fucking her in your hotel room. Unless she is total head case, she has "managed the process" and learned how to deal with the things that bug her and move on. The point that is being made here and understood by everyone but you is that crying or bitching in the dressing room or talking about negative issues on this web site is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

If a dancer shows up on Strip Club Lost or TUSCL and gripes about her nasty customers she is asking for a shit-storm and will most likely be ridiculed. This is not SCL or TUSCL.

yoda57us
08-06-2010, 12:54 PM
Yoda, no comment on the lap dog pic? I was particularly proud of finding a lap dog with ears and facial contours so similar to your avatar ;D



nope, no comment.

rickdugan
08-06-2010, 01:35 PM
Rick, the simple fact is that, the vast majority of the time, you have absolutely no idea what a dancer may think of you, her job, her life or her customers when you are buying dances or even when you are fucking her in your hotel room. Unless she is total head case, she has "managed the process" and learned how to deal with the things that bug her and move on. The point that is being made here and understood by everyone but you is that crying or bitching in the dressing room or talking about negative issues on this web site is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

If a dancer shows up on Strip Club Lost or TUSCL and gripes about her nasty customers she is asking for a shit-storm and will most likely be ridiculed. This is not SCL or TUSCL.

Thank you for channeling that deeper than normal blue understanding of the dancer life for me. I also appreciated your ability to speak for every other poster, other than me, on this thing. You are truly gifted sir ;)

And I have defended, and will continue to defend, this as the place for dancers to vent.

But if you think that all dancers working in the clubs are coping well then you are either blind or thick. As I mentioned before, the bitterness and desperation evident in some of the clubs now is hard not to see, even for someone without your enhanced dancer emotional awareness ;) More of these girls are quicker to snap, emotionally charged, getting more viscious with each other, and are displaying other signs of unhealthy behavior.

This leads me to believe that there are some girls currently doing this that are just not emotionally suited to it. I wonder how many clubs are doing psych evals prior to hiring? :P

I don't know if this is because the job has become harder, the girls are from a more sensitive generation, or some combination, but there it is.

And FWIW, my MO on here is the same as on TUSCL. If a guy posts whiney shit about how he got scammed, more often than not I tell him he is a moron who got what he deserved.

rickdugan
08-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Rick, you don't have to concern yourself with this. Just saying, this is what leads the girls to cry and whine on SW. It doesn't so much make a stripper cry in the dressing room..unless she's leaving the club in the negative and has to go home and find a way to feed mouths. That certainly would make someone cry.

Why should strippers be forced to resort to escorting if they don't want to? Me, I did it occasionally because it was fun, not all women are as slutty as me, and they shouldn't have to be.

KS, I'm not unfamiliar with what leads some of these girls to do it. Frankly, the vast bulk of my OTC hookups have been single mothers and a few were women also supporting some useless fuckup of a guy. Heck, when I learn in conversation that the dancer I am speaking with is a mother I know that my OTC chances just got much better ;D

But I question whether or not a stripper has to resort to escorting, or even work as a stripper if it doesn't pay the bills. There are plenty of women out there who work normal jobs and pay the bills without stripping OR escorting.

What I think you mean to say is that she shouldn't be forced to escort to make the money that she should be making as a stripper.

Athenathefabulous
08-06-2010, 02:14 PM
KS, I'm not unfamiliar with what leads some of these girls to do it. Frankly, the vast bulk of my OTC hookups have been single mothers and a few were women also supporting some useless fuckup of a guy. Heck, when I learn in conversation that the dancer I am speaking with is a mother I know that my OTC chances just got much better ;D


again, i am wondering how you dont see a moral problem with the fact that you knowingly are reveling in peoples desperation. the fact that you are aware that a single mother is more desperate to help her kids and therefore is more willing to put out for you for pay doesnt bother you at all? not even a little?

safado
08-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Yoda, no comment on the lap dog pic? I was particularly proud of finding a lap dog with ears and facial contours so similar to your avatar ;D

The lap dog pic would have been better if the lap dog was sitting in a naked stripper's lap.

rickdugan
08-06-2010, 03:50 PM
again, i am wondering how you dont see a moral problem with the fact that you knowingly are reveling in peoples desperation. the fact that you are aware that a single mother is more desperate to help her kids and therefore is more willing to put out for you for pay doesnt bother you at all? not even a little?

Not at all, nor do I think I should. I don't put a gun to anyone's head or pressure anybody.

Hell, about half the time they raise the possibility before I have a chance to. It may have to do with being a suited up, married traveling businessman in a nice hotel, but who really knows. Or it could be the cash role that I subtly let show as I'm paying for the drinks. ::) Ultimately I suspect that it is some combination of all of the above.

There are no victims coming to my hotel rooms - these girls are grown adults. They had, and continue to have, plenty of choices in life but they made their previous choices and leaving the club with me is yet another choice that they willingly make.

And I never treated any of them badly. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for a girl that is selfless and strong enough to do what she needs to do in order to provide a better life for her children.

Hell, over the years I've probably put more food in little babies' bellies than Save The Children - lol :D

KS_Stevia
08-06-2010, 04:12 PM
KS, I'm not unfamiliar with what leads some of these girls to do it. Frankly, the vast bulk of my OTC hookups have been single mothers and a few were women also supporting some useless fuckup of a guy. Heck, when I learn in conversation that the dancer I am speaking with is a mother I know that my OTC chances just got much better ;D

But I question whether or not a stripper has to resort to escorting, or even work as a stripper if it doesn't pay the bills. There are plenty of women out there who work normal jobs and pay the bills without stripping OR escorting.

What I think you mean to say is that she shouldn't be forced to escort to make the money that she should be making as a stripper.

Sometimes the money isn't there, guys only want the extras and OTC, its frustrating and risky and not all guys are as generally pleasant and respectful as you.

I have no kids and have never supported a man. I did have a lovely drug habit for some time, but it wasn't so bad that my SC earnings couldn't cover it. After all, strippers can get their blow for free. It was just something I was not opposed to when the guy vibe was right. Although there were maybe 2 occasions I did it when money was really bad in the clubs and I just had to pay my bills. One time ended up a blast. The other time, still scars me and I cringe to think about it.

That's all, we make our choices. If prostitution was more accessible, in the way of nice brothels everywhere...where the girls could dance and sit around and chit chat with you, etc...the problem wouldn't be as bad. That's the way it is in Australia.

KS_Stevia
08-06-2010, 04:13 PM
The lap dog pic would have been better if the lap dog was sitting in a naked stripper's lap.

I welcome yoda to sit in my naked lap!!!

Chili Palmer
08-06-2010, 11:11 PM
...The point that is being made here and understood by everyone but you is that crying or bitching in the dressing room or talking about negative issues on this web site is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

If a dancer shows up on Strip Club Lost or TUSCL and gripes about her nasty customers she is asking for a shit-storm and will most likely be ridiculed. This is not SCL or TUSCL.

Where I would respectfully disagree with you is that this isn't the place either. This is the Strip Club Junkie Forum, "A site For customers," to quote the link on the Pink side.

Stripperweb was absolutely designed (initially) as a place for dancers to vent and share info, and they have multiples avenues there on which to do so with zero customer interaction allowed (Stripping, Newbie Board, Private Party, Club Chat, Hustle Hut and especially Ladies Only), and many others where customer comments are strongly discouraged.

As I have written before, when I met the Owner of this site at SWfest-Phoenix a few years ago, he made it quite clear to me that SCJ was at the bottom of the links for a reason (even below Site Issues). I have no problem with that or his original intentions, but because of that I do try to guard against our basement tilting too far to dancerdom. And the true dancer toadies/sycophants rarely post down here, btw. ;)

CP

Chili Palmer
08-06-2010, 11:12 PM
again, i am wondering how you dont see a moral problem with the fact that you knowingly are reveling in peoples desperation. the fact that you are aware that a single mother is more desperate to help her kids and therefore is more willing to put out for you for pay doesnt bother you at all? not even a little?

I wonder, don't you see the irony in someone who (self-admittedly) revels in overcharging their customers and engages in bait & switch tactics trying to take the moral high ground in an ethics argument?

CP

Athenathefabulous
08-06-2010, 11:50 PM
I wonder, don't you see the irony in someone who (self-admittedly) revels in overcharging their customers and engages in bait & switch tactics trying to take the moral high ground in an ethics argument?

CP

1. as i said a couple of times already in this thread, i dont typically use the ethos or pathos arguement as i am a rather calloused person.

2. as i have also said many times on this board, the only customers who i have ever arguably ripped off have been customers who have wronged me first. also, since this is the second time that you have brought up the bait and switch post, maybe you should go back and re-read it, because if you did you would know that i have NEVER explicitly used the bait and switch (i.e. never have i promised a blowjob or whatever) but i have implictly used it when customers hounded me for extras (i.e. didnt deny that i would NOT give said blowjob). if a customer comes in, is grabby, then begs me for a blowjob in the CR, i wont really lose any sleep if i dodge the question, sell the cr, then refuse to give said blowjob. i never promised it to begin with so technically i never lied, and its their bad for being stupid enough to assume a blowjob comes with the cost of a champagne room anyway. i did say i was TEMPTED to explicitly use the bait and switch, but i was always too much of a coward to do so. maybe you should spend some time attacking some of the other dancers who have explicitly promised to do ___ and not followed through?

and also, since you bring up the overcharging again, i feel like i have beaten the subject to death in the other thread, to which you never really gave a reply back, and i think the conclusion was a better term would have been "upselling" as i was still offering 10$ dances, but offered a better 20$ dance with more contact to which customers could accept or decline beforehand. i never used the trick a customer and charge more later

but considering you have ignored these points before, i am sure you will again. i would prefer it if you would address these points though before bringing them up again.

Chili Palmer
08-07-2010, 12:40 AM
First off, I cannot recall any other dancer but you has started not one, but two "How to Rip Off a Customer" threads. Point them out to me, and have them post on Blue, and I will gladly do the same to them.

Secondly, I must apologize. I guess someone using your log-in and password wrote:


also im not looking for any sort of moral lecture on overcharging. im used to 20$ a dance and i think im at least 2x as hot [emphasis added] as most of the girls there, so why should i not be charging double?

so how do you girls go about overcharging? im still new to the whole thing and i want to get better at it.

Note to FBR, please don't ding me for quoting from Hustle Hut. She asked, I delivered.

Athena, I've never met you, you may the nicest, sweetest dancer that ever existed. But by your own hand, you're the sine qua non definition of a ROB. I don't post on Pink because I know some of my more strident posts may offend, and I respect the fact that the dancers want Pink to be their own domain. You may put whatever spin and rationalizations on your statements you choose, but a ROB is a ROB is a ROB, and as long as you post on Blue, expect me to remind everyone of that fact.

CP

Kylea2
08-07-2010, 12:48 AM
Dances in Texas have been the same price the last 15-20 years. By average inflation, they should have doubled by now.

House fees...FUCK fucking house fees. That's how the owners are getting away with the drink discounts to get more bodies in the door. Dislike.>:(

This irks me too! While the price of living goes up, the price of lap dances does not seem to.

When I first started dancing table dances (no touching, usually a good distance between dancer & customer) were $15 - $20. Then lap dances started getting popular & the price was generally $20 with the dancer keeping all.

Now, many years later, the average lap dance is still $20. However I also see clubs with lap dances at $10, & table dance for $5. My even bigger gripe is that 95% of the dancers these days don't know the difference between a table dance & a lap dance so they are giving lap dances on the floor for the price of the $5 table dance! ::) Basically they are undercutting themselves & the rest of the dancers.

I RARELY see clubs raising their lap dance prices. Last year I worked multiple clubs which had lowered/kept their lap dance prices to $10 (1/2 the national average), & only one club that had raised them to $25. I won't give nude lap dances when working with other dancers... but I've noticed the price for those in my area is $30. I had one young dancer try to tell me that I won't make any money if I don't give nude dances, I looked at her & said " I make money regardless". Personally, I don't think most guys are going to pay $10 just to look at a small bit more... or at least not most of the really good customers. A lot of the guys willing to "upgrade" to the nude dance are actually hoping to either "cop a feel" or else get more sensation from grinding. I'm not into either of those. I'm also not rubbing my body all over a guy that had some girl rubbing her bare snatch (yes, I just used that word) & juices on him 10 minutes before.


Athena & I have differing opinions on sales tactics. I believe in being very straight forward that I don't provide anything other than the dance, & she is willing to take the money of customers who try to solicit her for illegal activities knowing she has no intention of providing. I think her way is risky because it could be vice setting her up for a sting, or a customer could get really mad & violent about it. However, I do have a lot more respect for her doing that than the dancers who actually provide extras in the club. The fact is that both her tactic & my own are helping "just dancing" to survive. If these guys get "ripped off" enough times by asking & paying for services inside a club rather than a brothel then maybe they will decide not to return or not to ask next time. That means that we dancers won't have to waste our time on them. I do think that if dancers simply went back to saying "no" though that the guys would stop asking or start looking elsewhere.

I do however agree with a previous poster that a lot of this is the fault of the club managers who got greedy. They were the ones that in the beginning encouraged: dancers to mingle with customers, floor work, dirtier moves on stage, lap dances. They did that to avoid having to book the national touring burlesque dancers while making more money. They thought if the local house dancers did more or put on a dirtier show than the burlesque dancers that they'd make more money without having to pay: booking fees, agency fees, travel expenses etc. What ended up happening though is the girls stay at the club for too long & have to compete for attention to make money to pay living expenses... often that competition leads to them becoming dirtier in order to survive.

If management started cracking down more on the extras then there would be less of them. The alternative is for the dancers to do the policing themselves. The other option is for the government to put pressure on the clubs by creating stronger laws, issuing tickets, or closing clubs down... & none of us want that.

Athenathefabulous
08-07-2010, 01:15 AM
First off, I cannot recall any other dancer but you has started not one, but two "How to Rip Off a Customer" threads. Point them out to me, and have them post on Blue, and I will gladly do the same to them.

Secondly, I must apologize. I guess someone using your log-in and password wrote:



Note to FBR, please don't ding me for quoting from Hustle Hut. She asked, I delivered.

Athena, I've never met you, you may the nicest, sweetest dancer that ever existed. But by your own hand, you're the sine qua non definition of a ROB. I don't post on Pink because I know some of my more strident posts may offend, and I respect the fact that the dancers want Pink to be their own domain. You may put whatever spin and rationalizations on your statements you choose, but a ROB is a ROB is a ROB, and as long as you post on Blue, expect me to remind everyone of that fact.

CP


im not the nicest, sweetest dancer that ever existed. or even close.

and yes, at this particular club i am twice as hot as most the other girls. its a club known for having overweight chicks. if the customer opted, they could buy teh 10$ dance, but i made them sit on their hands and did no grinding and light contact. and honestly dude, its 10$. i dont know what the hell guys expect for 10$. other girls might have been doing a lot for it but fuck that, if guys want a dance with contact from my end that doesnt require them to sit on their hands then they can pay 20$.

and since prices were said upfront i dont see how it was ripping them off. i didnt dance for them when they assumed it was 10$ dances, then surprise them by demanding 20$ from them at the end. in my book that would be ripping a customer off... as you mentioned in the other thread if i said that a real worthwhile dance was 20$ you would decline... which is fine. so i STILL dont see how i am ripping a customer off if they know what they are getting into before hand. its all on the table and as far as i am concerned its honest business. if they want a high contact 10$ dance then they can take their business to one of the larger girls at the club who will happily do hand stands in their faces and get her titties groped for 10$. its their decision, not mine.

and again, the bait and switch thread was largely a curiosity poll. it was certainly not a 'how do i use the bait and switch'. it was because i was curious how many girls did use it and to what extent. i wasnt one of the girls on there who clicked that i "explicitly use the bait and switch" or however i paraphrased that option.... to make this clear... i have NEVER told a customer that i would do ___ sexual act/meet them OTC for __$. ever. i am too paranoid about getting arrested. I have skirted the question on several occasions while making sales for DANCES and CHAMPAGNE ROOMS, NOT BLOWJOBS in the process. if what i am doing is technically not soliciting and would pass the undercover cop test (i.e. if a cop was wired, the recording would show that i was not guilty of solicitation in court) then in my book its fine. no sex was promised. not my fault that a customer is stupid enough to assume i am a prostitute when i never promised them any such services.

also i would like to add, that in my opinion, slickly dodging the extras question while managing to make a sale is a legitimate sales tactic in a business where half the customers come in looking for a product which in theory is not offered. if the customer really does press and demands a flat out answer, then finally i will be left with no choice but to tell them no, that is not offered here and them nastily tell them to fuck off... but if they try to be sly about asking for extras, i will be sly right back. and customers will try to be tricky about getting you to agree to do things that could get you in trouble. i KNOW that you know that a large part of sales is about overcoming objections. The 'i will only spend money if you do sexual favors for me' objection is pretty unique to this business and as a result, i have adapted a way to overcome this objection through changing the subject, making jokes, distracting them, using a sense of humor about it etc etc... all in a way where i can still sell my product and simultaneously not promise them prostitution.

really, what it boils down to, my general rule of thumb has always been treat the customer as well as they treat me. if they dont want to spend on me, fine, i ignore them. if they spend on me and are polite, then i entertain the hell out of them. if they insist on being rude and disrespectful, then i return the favor. if they get violent, i return the favor. if they try to trick me into doing extras, i dont promise extras but i will use my slick tongue to make a sale for a product that i do sell. im actually a very uncomplicated woman.

SpeakngEZ
08-07-2010, 04:55 AM
...the bitterness and desperation evident in some of the clubs now is hard not to see, even for someone without your enhanced dancer emotional awareness. [annoying wink] More of these girls are quicker to snap, emotionally charged, getting more viscious with each other, and are displaying other signs of unhealthy behavior.

This leads me to believe that there are some girls currently doing this that are just not emotionally suited to it. I wonder how many clubs are doing psych evals prior to hiring?

You must not work in sales! Go to a Sears full-line store and watch the appliance salesmen fight over customers. I used to be a commission-only saleslady there. I have literally seen a coworker run down customers who go to pay for a vacuum at the front of the store instead of at his register. I have seen said catty behavior from the female sales crew fight over whose customer it was who bought the Kenmore Elite in powdered steel (one made the sale, but it was the other's regular customer--I'm serious). And you know what? I've seen a salesman offer several discounts to a couple before they even hinted disinterest about a dishwasher, just because he was desperate for a sale. (At least he didn't have to feel gropey hands on his no-no areas.)

And guess what? Sears does evalute employees before hiring them. And we all passed.

Having to work day in and day out but still have to FIGHT with your coworkers about who gets their paycheck this week . . . well, that would drive anyone crazy. It's not just us strippers.

ETA: and I have seen a saleslady cry there after a talk with her manager, who wanted to know if "she really wanted to keep her job." Why? Because her Protection Plan (extended warrenty) sales were down for that period.

ETA: I lied. I'm the one who chased down that vacuum.

yoda57us
08-07-2010, 06:53 PM
But if you think that all dancers working in the clubs are coping well then you are either blind or thick.

I can assure you rick that I am neither. Nor am I claiming that "all" dancers are anything. All I am claiming is that men are easily fooled when they are being led around by their dicks...

You're a smart guy rick and I'd like to think that I am as well. We both know that it's all a game designed to get our money and we are both fine with that. That being said, just because we are willing participants in the game doesn't mean that we actually know what is going on in a dancer's head when she is working us.

rickdugan
08-08-2010, 05:53 AM
I can assure you rick that I am neither. Nor am I claiming that "all" dancers are anything. All I am claiming is that men are easily fooled when they are being led around by their dicks...

You're a smart guy rick and I'd like to think that I am as well. We both know that it's all a game designed to get our money and we are both fine with that. That being said, just because we are willing participants in the game doesn't mean that we actually know what is going on in a dancer's head when she is working us.


We disagree on certain core concepts but I think you're a smart guy, even when you take a position that baffles me as a healthy heterosexual male ;)

But to your last sentence all I can say is: Amen and 100% agreed.

Casual Observer
08-08-2010, 07:06 AM
I have to agree in large measure with the girls here; the balance of power has inexorably moved in the favor of men, and it's destroying the clubbing industry.

First, I am of the opinon (as many are) that the ubiquity of sex services via the internet were the beginning of the end of strip clubs. Prior to widespread adoption of the internet, strip clubs were still places of wonder and excitement and most of the overt sex trade was more discreet and controlled. That's all gone now.

Second, the crassness of the clientle--whose sexual expectations have soared since the internet revolution--has led to a general coarsening of the strip club experience. The girls posting here in this thread (about being assaulted, dealing with cheap-ass negotiators, et al) offer prime examples of that crassness. It's why so many of my initial experiences with new girls on the road are a challenge--they're steeled against the rude, inconsiderate and offensive gestures (both physical and psychological) of a seemingly ever-devolving clientle. The callous mercenary attitude of so many dancers is like a nailbomb to the libido. Connecting with dancers is more of a chore than it used to be--and as customers go, I'm a fucking dream catch by any standard.

Third, the temporal convergence of the first two points has resulted in the dramatic and broad reduction of quality talent in the industry. Like CP said, it's getting damn hard to find girls of an elevated aesthetic caliber in a club--they've all gone to camming, and while I don't see the point in that service, I can't blame them.

I'm not some weak-ass White Knight running around the DR handing out tissues to the sobbing strippers--I've always been on the lookout for potential regular OTC candidates that are so inclined toward discreet, mutually satisfactory arrangements. But if we as customers can't see that we're systematically destroying the very recreational resource so many of us want, we deserve to lose that resource.

Athenathefabulous
08-08-2010, 01:25 PM
I have to agree in large measure with the girls here; the balance of power has inexorably moved in the favor of men, and it's destroying the clubbing industry.

First, I am of the opinon (as many are) that the ubiquity of sex services via the internet were the beginning of the end of strip clubs. Prior to widespread adoption of the internet, strip clubs were still places of wonder and excitement and most of the overt sex trade was more discreet and controlled. That's all gone now.

Second, the crassness of the clientle--whose sexual expectations have soared since the internet revolution--has led to a general coarsening of the strip club experience. The girls posting here in this thread (about being assaulted, dealing with cheap-ass negotiators, et al) offer prime examples of that crassness. It's why so many of my initial experiences with new girls on the road are a challenge--they're steeled against the rude, inconsiderate and offensive gestures (both physical and psychological) of a seemingly ever-devolving clientle. The callous mercenary attitude of so many dancers is like a nailbomb to the libido. Connecting with dancers is more of a chore than it used to be--and as customers go, I'm a fucking dream catch by any standard.

Third, the temporal convergence of the first two points has resulted in the dramatic and broad reduction of quality talent in the industry. Like CP said, it's getting damn hard to find girls of an elevated aesthetic caliber in a club--they've all gone to camming, and while I don't see the point in that service, I can't blame them.

I'm not some weak-ass White Knight running around the DR handing out tissues to the sobbing strippers--I've always been on the lookout for potential regular OTC candidates that are so inclined toward discreet, mutually satisfactory arrangements. But if we as customers can't see that we're systematically destroying the very recreational resource so many of us want, we deserve to lose that resource.

oh internet porn, the cause and solution to all the world's problems... :D


fortunately clubs do still exist where there is an equal balance of power. they are just fewer and far between. at this point i try to stick to these clubs, overall i think it is better for my mental health. also, not surprisingly these are the clubs where management actually pays attention to extras-- go figure. hence one of many reasons why i think management is the biggest culprit in the issue (other than arguably internet porn-- which is more of an indirect factor just because it increases the levels of what is considered to be taboo.) i just flat out prefer these clubs, the girls are happier and i think the guys are happier too, even if they are not getting extras (or if they are they are getting them very secretly OTC) since the overall improved environment makes the dancers less mercenary, vengeful, desperate to make money either thru trickery or prostitution, etc etc.

so yea IMO, a fair balance where neither party is desperate (well some PLs will always be desperate, but thats just kind of how it goes... i dont think it will ever stop ;D) just leads to a better work environment. and it can benefit the customer too if we are happy vs. if we are pretending to be happy or not even bothering pretending to be happy because we are so burnt out.

safado
08-08-2010, 02:38 PM
I have to disagree with some of the posts here some of the changes in the clubs and girls. Over the last two months I have gone and checked out some of the clubs in my area. The contact levels are up but I am happy about that. In the last few months I have not run into these defensive unhappy and mercenary strippers. The ones that I have met have been friendly, of course I know that I may have just been lucky.

I think that the biggest factor in the balance of power is the economy, the clubs that I have gone to recently have been slow and not many of the customers were spending money. The customers not spending money just makes me look better.

I have noticed that the quality of dancers is down but I think that that has to do with that fact that the U.S. population is getting fatter every year. It is not just the clubs, every where I go I see fat chicks and I don't like it. It seems like there are a lot more fat people now than there were 10 years ago. I don't tip or get lap dances from fat chicks. It makes sense that if the population is getting fatter that there will be more fatties working in the clubs. However there is one local club that has several hotties.

I like extras and OTC so the changes are good with me. I see some good OTC possibilities at a few of the local clubs. The one thing that has happened that I don't like is a few of the girls have stuck their tongue in my ear, I hate it when they do that!

rickdugan
08-08-2010, 03:36 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the notions that clients have become much more crass and dancers more hardened. It is indeed a shame and, in some ways, makes the experience less intoxicating than it once was.

But I disagree with the notion that the shift in the balance of power is ruining/destroying the industry. In fact, since the widespread adoption of the Internet the number of clubs in the U.S. has increased. IMHO the Internet, including sites like SCL and TUSCL, have increased awareness of, and traffic to, strip clubs. I remember the days when finding a SC was hit or miss and involved phone book searches, trolling through certain newspapers or discreetly asking asking a hotel concierge or cabbie (who would direct you to the club that paid him the most). For several years now this information has been much more readily available, and I believe that this contributed to the influx of cash into this industry during the late 90s until 2001 and then again from 2003 to 2008.

I also very much disagree with the notion that the girls have become less appealing. Perhaps this is regional, but some of the clubs that I frequent are filled with beautiful women. Now I can agree that there is also a lot more mediocre talent out there, but I would argue that this was necessitated by an increase in the number of mid-level clubs over the years.

Overall I am happy with some of the changes and I do not believe that they are killing the industry, just changing it a bit. There are more clubs than ever before and I would not be surprised to see that growth trend continue, particularly when the economy gets better.

FBR
08-08-2010, 04:58 PM
I am a simple guy and to be honest don't have the history to debate a change of the balance of power over a couple of decades. All my OTC has been way outside the POP index. I am familiar with local escort rates and have indulged several times but there is something about wooing a stripper even though you know it's the same thing but more money.
FBR

Kylea2
08-08-2010, 08:50 PM
^^^ Maybe it's just me, but in all of the years I've been dancing I've never seen a stripper wooed into OTC full on sex for money. Most of the dancers I know either do it or don't do it. The ones that do were typically doing it before they started dancing, got into other fields that involved paid sex & figured seeing private clients wasn't much different, or they were introduced to it via other OTC dancers who escorted on the side.

rickdugan
08-09-2010, 06:03 AM
^^^ Maybe it's just me, but in all of the years I've been dancing I've never seen a stripper wooed into OTC full on sex for money. Most of the dancers I know either do it or don't do it. The ones that do were typically doing it before they started dancing, got into other fields that involved paid sex & figured seeing private clients wasn't much different, or they were introduced to it via other OTC dancers who escorted on the side.

I can understand FBR's perspective. I have a situation now with a girl that I am fairly sure does not do it routinely. It took me two months to work it out.

IME there are no bright lines that apply to all dancers or their boundaries. On the extreme ends of the spectrum are the girls who would never have sex for $$$ and those that do so as their primary source of income. But IMHO for some it seems to be a "crime of opportunity" in that it may not be routine but, if the situation is right for them from a number of perspectives, they may do it.

But I absolutely agree with you that someone who would never do p4p is not going to change just because a customer continues to seek it.

FBR
08-09-2010, 07:33 PM
^^^ Maybe it's just me, but in all of the years I've been dancing I've never seen a stripper wooed into OTC full on sex for money. Most of the dancers I know either do it or don't do it. The ones that do were typically doing it before they started dancing, got into other fields that involved paid sex & figured seeing private clients wasn't much different, or they were introduced to it via other OTC dancers who escorted on the side.

Point taken. Miss B yes I believe I did woo her. During the time of our two engagements she talked about being curious about being with an older man. Considering there were only two effs, I guess she thought better of it and scurried home to younger dudes. My current estranged fav approached me years ago with terms and conditions (obviously some OTC experience) and my Indy ATF in retrospect was a player as I almost divorced my wife over her. So I agree.

FBR

yoda57us
08-09-2010, 08:00 PM
Where I would respectfully disagree with you is that this isn't the place either. This is the Strip Club Junkie Forum, "A site For customers," to quote the link on the Pink side.


Yeah, I can certainly respect your view CP, I just think the blue side would be boring without the contributions of the ladies. I've always seen blue a fairly self-policing. The ladies who don't "get it" don't last long down here in Blue and the ones who do make interesting contributions.

Kylea2
08-09-2010, 08:41 PM
Point taken. Miss B yes I believe I did woo her. During the time of our two engagements she talked about being curious about being with an older man. Considering there were only two effs, I guess she thought better of it and scurried home to younger dudes.

Sounds like she was doing some self experimentation with older men, I can respect that. Personally, most of my longterm (3-5yr) boyfriends have been anywhere from 15 - 30 years my senior. The young boys don't last long with me... maybe two weeks tops. It seems like the older the guy is who I'm with, the longer our relationship seems to last. Maybe that's because I have very little patience for younger men, or because the older ones tend to treat me better with less drama? At any rate, I've said before that I much prefer older men. I'm glad to hear that your friend at least tried being with an older man... but I suppose it isn't for everyone.

mortalman
08-09-2010, 09:41 PM
At any rate, I've said before that I much prefer older men.

I got that covered ;)

Now how do you feel about fat and balding? :-\

Kylea2
08-09-2010, 10:25 PM
^^^ Personality & brains are more important to me.

Chili Palmer
08-09-2010, 10:36 PM
Yeah, I can certainly respect your view CP, I just think the blue side would be boring without the contributions of the ladies. I've always seen blue a fairly self-policing. The ladies who don't "get it" don't last long down here in Blue and the ones who do make interesting contributions.

I absolutely agree with you on that. I did not mean to imply only customers could post here, but the "dancer venting" aspect and now we're all supposed to march in lock step sympathy with a disgruntled dancer was more my point. If a dancer wants to vent to a more sympathetic ear, she has all of Pink. If you come to the basement, expect to get a little dankness on you.

Hockeybobby, quoting Arthur C Clarke's 2010, said it best a couple years ago, "All these worlds are yours, save Europa."

CP

majordon
08-10-2010, 12:06 AM
Athena:

So did you not find it worthwhile to spend any time in Denver/Boulder ? I've been reading this thread and it seems to me that the balance of power here is fair, girls have to spend time with guys to get dances but then they will in fact get them and can set reasonable limits.

I was hoping to see you here, worship you from afar if need be, but I guess you came and went in short order. Maybe you're out of my league, and I can't chase you around the country, but I will say that your posts ( + many others of course ) have taught me a lot about how strippers approach their craft.

SCJ guys, don't hit me too hard about sucking up, this is just what I felt at this point in time. Where else can I go to say what I feel about strippers?

startngate
08-10-2010, 11:19 AM
To answer the original question, I don't think there is any question the 'balance of power' has shifted toward the customer who spends, at least at the clubs I have been to anyway (primarily mid-west and mid-sized cities) . There seems to be a far greater difference in both the quantity of customers and size of bankroll between the average customer and one who spends money. I haven't changed the size of the bankroll I normally bring to the club when I go, but while I suspect I was one of the 'decent' customers ten years ago, I now get treated like I'm a 'high-roller' by the dancers.

So IMO a lot of it has to be the economy being what it is today. A customer who spends some money these days is a lot harder to find. Once a dancer has figured out that you will spend, many will do whatever it takes to keep you from moving on to another girl, whether it be extras or OTC. I think for that same reason I have experienced far fewer 'games' being played. Nearly every dancer I have spent any amount of time with in the last couple of years has given me her phone number without my even asking, and offered up something (OTC, getting together for dinner, 2-1 dances the next time I come in, etc.) that would have required a much longer 'courtship' to get ten years ago.

The other thing that seems to be happening is that there are far fewer 'professional' dancers in the clubs any more. Very few of the younger dancers actually take the time to 'learn the craft' ... most don't know how to perform on stage, and don't know how to sell or even just talk to a customer in a manner to get them interested. Because they don't really take the time (or care) to 'learn the craft' it's much easier for the customers to assume the power in the club. I am starting to hear things like 'I always do 2-1's' and 'pay me what you want' when I ask what I owe at the end of a set. Ten years ago if a dance was $20.13 per song a dancer would have calculated what I owed to the penny.

I swear a lot of the younger dancers seem like they are just there to drink for free and hang out. I've seen beautiful girls sit at a table for hours with a guy who doesn't even tip the stage dancers (much less actually buy a dance), knowing they should easily be the top earner at the club and would have had a great night financially if they had said hello to me. Instead my money went to someone else, and I suspect she was probably bitching in the dressing room about what a bad night she had come closing time.

Bottom line is it just seems to me that it's easier and cheaper to have a great time now than it was ten years ago. I still basically spend about the same amount as I did ten years ago, but get a better experience now. I'm sure it won't always be that way, so I'll just enjoy it while it lasts ... :)

Kylea2
08-10-2010, 11:39 AM
The other thing that seems to be happening is that there are far fewer 'professional' dancers in the clubs any more. Very few of the younger dancers actually take the time to 'learn the craft' ... most don't know how to perform on stage, and don't know how to sell or even just talk to a customer in a manner to get them interested. Because they don't really take the time (or care) to 'learn the craft' it's much easier for the customers to assume the power in the club. I am starting to hear things like 'I always do 2-1's' and 'pay me what you want' when I ask what I owe at the end of a set. Ten years ago if a dance was $20.13 per song a dancer would have calculated what I owed to the penny.

You are correct about that, & we've discussed that topic on here before. The majority of dancers don't make it past the 4yr mark. Salary.com states that 70% of strippers have between 0-4 years of experience. Right now as a seasoned dancer only 19% of dancers have as much or more experience than I do... personally I think that is sad!

yoda57us
08-10-2010, 08:15 PM
I absolutely agree with you on that. I did not mean to imply only customers could post here, but the "dancer venting" aspect and now we're all supposed to march in lock step sympathy with a disgruntled dancer was more my point. If a dancer wants to vent to a more sympathetic ear, she has all of Pink. If you come to the basement, expect to get a little dankness on you.


I'm in total agreement CP.

JoeUnCool
08-10-2010, 08:48 PM
I came on board in the mid 90's so I don't remember what some of you are talking about. To be honest a dancer flirting around with her top and bottom on is not that interesting to me despite her pole skills or whatever. Drilling down to my motivations, I will only spend significant money on a dancer (over time) that I believe I can take OTC in some fashion. I may or may not be successful (my record is not that great) but teasing is not that hot IMO.

FBR

Are you saying that I have you by almost 10 years with regards to going to clubs? Holy shit, and I thought you hooked up dino to your wagon to get to the club. wow, just wow. Of course, I had a fake id to get in the clubs then, but I was hooked from the beginning. I still remember the first night, just like it was yesterday.

The biggest change I have seen is the amount of touching and the vip rooms. Initially, I never found a girl that would dance anywhere near me. Touching was definitely not allowed. Finally some lap dancing with touching, then mutual touching, and vip rooms came in. Once the VIP rooms came in, I think that's when the real race to the bottom started in earnest. Don't get me wrong, there are a number of clubs today where girls won't let you touch. However, the number of clubs that sell themselves as cheap and allow touching has greatly increased as the number of clubs with vip rooms/areas has increased. I think the vip rooms allowed more dancers to be escorts, be tempted, and escorts to work as dancers. After all, what are two adults with some drinks, one is naked, one has money, and no supervision supposed to do in a dark area left to their own devices? I call this a race to the bottom because I see a lot of girls will try to sell themselves as the cheapest. Hey, its capitalism.

FBR
08-10-2010, 08:52 PM
Sounds like she was doing some self experimentation with older men, I can respect that. Personally, most of my longterm (3-5yr) boyfriends have been anywhere from 15 - 30 years my senior. The young boys don't last long with me... maybe two weeks tops. It seems like the older the guy is who I'm with, the longer our relationship seems to last. Maybe that's because I have very little patience for younger men, or because the older ones tend to treat me better with less drama? At any rate, I've said before that I much prefer older men. I'm glad to hear that your friend at least tried being with an older man... but I suppose it isn't for everyone.Indeed she did give it a try and I say that in the context that I certainly couldn't expect anything beyond that. But I have to admit engaging in sexual rompings with her was a huge buzz even if only twice. Alas now I am left with nothing.

FBR

JoeUnCool
08-10-2010, 08:52 PM
I got that covered ;)

Now how do you feel about fat and balding? :-\

Personally, I think it should be a rule that all dancers have to like guys with small penis' and dunlop's disease, like me. ;)

JoeUnCool
08-10-2010, 09:06 PM
I absolutely agree with you on that. I did not mean to imply only customers could post here, but the "dancer venting" aspect and now we're all supposed to march in lock step sympathy with a disgruntled dancer was more my point. If a dancer wants to vent to a more sympathetic ear, she has all of Pink. If you come to the basement, expect to get a little dankness on you.

Hockeybobby, quoting Arthur C Clarke's 2010, said it best a couple years ago, "All these worlds are yours, save Europa."

CP

Yeah, I'm in agreement with you and Yoda on this. I have no problem with an entertainer posting in the basement. My complaint about the entertainer's posting here is:


Don't come to the basement and assume that we are all the same. I'm not the guy that slapped her ass last night or tried to stick my finger/tongue/whatever in her last night, or offered her $50 for fs, so don't b**** at me about it screaming "all men are the same." In exchange, I'll not assume that you are a hooker or prostitute and won't treat you like one. For example, when I say that "I've found that 36% of the entertainers that I have met and known are escorts, I am speaking from my personal experience, not saying that all entertainers (or you) are hookers."
Don't feed me the line about blue being a supportive and nurturing environment for entertainers. I never signed up for that when I entered. I came to this site through scj.com. I don't remember signing an agreement on that, but I will admit its been a while since I created my account. In exchange, I'll give you my opinion and attempt to do so in a non-combative way. Don't hate on me because I have 24 years of experience in this and have seen clubs from the insider operators point of view as well as the customer's and have a fairly balanced point of view.

FBR
08-10-2010, 09:06 PM
Yeah, I can certainly respect your view CP, I just think the blue side would be boring without the contributions of the ladies. I've always seen blue a fairly self-policing. The ladies who don't "get it" don't last long down here in Blue and the ones who do make interesting contributions.

I like the influx of ladies who have been posting lately. T&A as they stumble down the basement steps in 6" stilletos works for me.

FBR

Kylea2
08-10-2010, 09:23 PM
^^^ You must be referring to Athena, & possibly JD. JD, do you wear 6" heels?

Athenathefabulous
08-10-2010, 09:25 PM
why would SCJ be tied to SW if interaction wasnt supposed to take place? ive never seen any reason not to post here, and also there is the obvious fact that most dancers double as customers at some point, some on a regular basis.

i know that some of you like your extras... and i dont think ive spent that much time yelling at you for paying for sex. my main issue here simply is the idea of taking glee in others desperation disturbing. i try to be somewhat fair, and for the most part i dont have anything against the blue side, although i obviously disagree with a lot of what is posted here, and of course there are a few members that i get into arguments with. but thats just what happens when opinionated people gather on a forum to discuss, isnt it?

lopaw
08-10-2010, 09:26 PM
T&A as they stumble down the basement steps in 6" stilletos works for me.

FBR


Lol - that's quite an image there! ;D

mortalman
08-10-2010, 09:27 PM
Personally, I think it should be a rule that all dancers have to like guys with small penis' and dunlop's disease, like me. ;)

:-[
Uh yea I got that covered too

Athenathefabulous
08-10-2010, 09:28 PM
Lol - that's quite an image there! ;D

you will never know fear until you try to go down stairs without railings in 8 inch stilettos. :no:

FBR
08-10-2010, 09:34 PM
why would SCJ be tied to SW if interaction wasnt supposed to take place? ive never seen any reason not to post here, and also there is the obvious fact that most dancers double as customers at some point, some on a regular basis.

i know that some of you like your extras... and i dont think ive spent that much time yelling at you for paying for sex. my main issue here simply is the idea of taking glee in others desperation disturbing. i try to be somewhat fair, and for the most part i dont have anything against the blue side, although i obviously disagree with a lot of what is posted here, and of course there are a few members that i get into arguments with. but thats just what happens when opinionated people gather on a forum to discuss, isnt it? Athena what are you talking about? The ballers enjoy the back and forth with the ladies who come down here. Don't be defensive. We know you will disagree from time to time...your posts are welcome.

FBR

Athenathefabulous
08-10-2010, 09:40 PM
Athena:

So did you not find it worthwhile to spend any time in Denver/Boulder ? I've been reading this thread and it seems to me that the balance of power here is fair, girls have to spend time with guys to get dances but then they will in fact get them and can set reasonable limits.

I was hoping to see you here, worship you from afar if need be, but I guess you came and went in short order. Maybe you're out of my league, and I can't chase you around the country, but I will say that your posts ( + many others of course ) have taught me a lot about how strippers approach their craft.

SCJ guys, don't hit me too hard about sucking up, this is just what I felt at this point in time. Where else can I go to say what I feel about strippers?


Unfortunately for almost all parties involved, the "balance of power" in denver isnt in the dancers' or customers' favor. its in VCGH's favor. almost completely. I think kylea would agree with this...