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Jessie_tinydancer
08-05-2010, 03:44 AM
^ I'm certainly not bored of my husband. And I do feel completely fulfilled in my relationship and thats why I have the confidence to swing. I adore my husband. Its just fun to bang other hot people every once and a while - plain and simple. We have a varied sex life... do lots of fun stuff together, porn, bondage, pictures, costumes, toys all that jazz. The we also have fun with our swinging mates. We have romantic times and vanilla sessions too. Just a few weeks back we got a expensive hotel room, ordered room service, drank champagne, bubble bath, and banged all night.

We may not swing forever, but it doesnt make or break our relationship. We could stop tomorrow and both still be happy as two peas in the pod. :) Its really just fun for us. You could say a hobby LOL.

Now I could never have done this with my ex. I wasnt sure of how strong our love was and something like that would destroy it.

I've got nothing against monogamy. I think a lot of people are confused about open relationships though..

jack0177057
08-05-2010, 08:11 AM
^ Exactly, you swing for the "right" reasons... But, if either partner in a relationship said, "I'm getting bored in bed with you, let's fuck other people," that's not the "right" reason to swing and that relationship is going to fizzle really quick. There are hundreds of ways to "spice" up sex when it gets "boring" and two people that "love" each other should be willing to explore them all before giving up on each other.

In your case - your husband is not bored with you and he doesn't need to swing (he is complete with you), but yet, it is an activity that you both enjoy and approve - like kayaking or rock climbing. I can respect that, even though my own attitudes and personal preferences (for myself and my GF) are different.

princessjas
08-05-2010, 08:54 AM
^^You assume that most people in open relationships are bored though? Eh, not even remotely. Basically, here it is....I like girls...a LOT, but I like men more. So, why not be in a relationship that allows me to have a girl every now and then?

Plus there is an honesty that you just can't touch in most monogamous relationships. Last semester I had a crush on my lab partner (a guy). In a regular relationship I would have to have been sure to hide this even though it was a passing thing and I had no interest in actually having sex with him. I didn't have to stress about it though. Nope, I just told Daddy about my day to day stuff without worrying about editing out someone that I had class with. Didn't worry that he would start a fight or tell me to fuck-off like I would have with most men. Stuff like that you can't put a price on imo.

jack0177057
08-05-2010, 12:53 PM
^^ Trem said that, not me...


The reason people are in open marriages is because they DO find traditional relationships boring, this is a matter of opinion and shouldn't be taken as an insult. It's no different than me saying i find your favorite TV show boring, that's just how i feel and sorry if it bugs you.

I said - "But, if either partner in a relationship said, "I'm getting bored in bed with you, let's fuck other people," that's not the "right" reason to swing and that relationship is going to fizzle really quick. There are hundreds of ways to "spice" up sex when it gets "boring" and two people that "love" each other should be willing to explore them all before giving up on each other."

The reference to "giving up on each other" was specifically related to the people whose sole motivation for swinging is boredom with their partner. In your case and Jessie_tinydancer, that doesn't apply.

I agree with you about honesty. But, here is the problem -

Hypothetical person 1 speaking - "I truly believe in a traditional marriage and a monogamy 'till death do us part'. But, I cheat on my wife out of weakness and I regret it later and feel a lot of guilt. I know what is 'right', but I lack the self-control to live according to my convictions."

Is this person monogamous or polygamous? Intellectually, morally and philosophically, he is monogamous, but his personal "weakness" causes him to act in a polygamous manner.

On the other hand, consider this person:

Hypothetical person 2 speaking - "I don't believe in a traditional marriage - it is the creation of a patriarchal ancient and absolete system that always had a double standard for men and women. I believe "true love" means letting your partner experience everything life has to offer, whether it's with you or with anyone else. I believe in free and unconditional love, without possessiveness - any efforts to limit my partner's sexual curiosity and adventure is selfish and irrational... Yet, my emotions get the better of me and it pains me to see him with another woman. I hide this pain when we swing, because it is a sign of my emotional weakness."

Is this person monogamous or polygamous? Intellectually, morally and philosophically, she is polygamous, but her personal "weakness" causes her to act in a monagamous manner.

(Ignore the genders used for these examples, they are just random.)

lemiwinks31
08-05-2010, 01:47 PM
Plus there is an honesty that you just can't touch in most monogamous relationships......... Stuff like that you can't put a price on imo.

Honesty & openness.....absolutely key in any relationship.

...and also have absolutely nothing to do whether it is a sexually open relationship or a monogamous one.

princessjas
08-05-2010, 03:38 PM
^^ Trem said that, not me...



I said - "But, if either partner in a relationship said, "I'm getting bored in bed with you, let's fuck other people," that's not the "right" reason to swing and that relationship is going to fizzle really quick. There are hundreds of ways to "spice" up sex when it gets "boring" and two people that "love" each other should be willing to explore them all before giving up on each other."

The reference to "giving up on each other" was specifically related to the people whose sole motivation for swinging is boredom with their partner. In your case and Jessie_tinydancer, that doesn't apply.

I agree with you about honesty. But, here is the problem -

Hypothetical person 1 speaking - "I truly believe in a traditional marriage and a monogamy 'till death do us part'. But, I cheat on my wife out of weakness and I regret it later and feel a lot of guilt. I know what is 'right', but I lack the self-control to live according to my convictions."

Is this person monogamous or polygamous? Intellectually, morally and philosophically, he is monogamous, but his personal "weakness" causes him to act in a polygamous manner.

On the other hand, consider this person:

Hypothetical person 2 speaking - "I don't believe in a traditional marriage - it is the creation of a patriarchal ancient and absolete system that always had a double standard for men and women. I believe "true love" means letting your partner experience everything life has to offer, whether it's with you or with anyone else. I believe in free and unconditional love, without possessiveness - any efforts to limit my partner's sexual curiosity and adventure is selfish and irrational... Yet, my emotions get the better of me and it pains me to see him with another woman. I hide this pain when we swing, because it is a sign of my emotional weakness."

Is this person monogamous or polygamous? Intellectually, morally and philosophically, she is polygamous, but her personal "weakness" causes her to act in a monagamous manner.

(Ignore the genders used for these examples, they are just random.)
Why the need to label everything? Hypothetical person #2 does not need to be in an open relationship imo. Why do something that hurts you? Ughh! Can't stand when girls decide to go along with whatever to please a guy. Personally, if I wasn't playing too, I wouldn't be there, but whateves. I have zero interest in swapping, my interest lies in having another girl join in.


Honesty & openness.....absolutely key in any relationship.

...and also have absolutely nothing to do whether it is a sexually open relationship or a monogamous one.

They really have more to do with how secure both parties are...but in my experience, most men can't handle actually hearing about who their partner finds attractive. So, theoretically you are correct, but in all my 34 years I've only met one guy who wasn't into open relationships that was that secure and non-possesive.

Trem
08-05-2010, 06:13 PM
I said people in open relationships were bored with vanilla relationships, NOT bored with their partners.

princessjas
08-05-2010, 06:24 PM
I said people in open relationships were bored with vanilla relationships, NOT bored with their partners.

Yeah, I got that before. Or at least it's what I assumed you meant.

My take on relationships....If you can't spank me and make me your dirty little slut then basically I've got zero interest. Jeez, my earliest fantasies had bondage in them. I was about 5-6 when I started fantasizing about being tied to a steel table and kissed/touched, around this time I also realized I got crushes on girls almost as often as I crushed on boys. The submissive thing is not even like a choice I make, it's more like who I am. If I can boss around a guy then I will. I'll make him my wittle bitch and have no respect for him. I can do this with damn near anyone I meet, so the handful of times that guys have told me to cut the shit....I'm hooked.

classyguy
08-05-2010, 07:22 PM
Jack - It doesn't seem that either of your hypotheticals should be in an open relationship.

#1 sounds just like all these politicians, evangelists, athletes, and celebrities who get caught committing "adultery" (even the word sounds dirty). They tearfully and publicly confess their "weakness", check themselves into treatment centers for their "addiction", and join prayer groups to seek redemption (at least whenever they can get the cameras there). Just once, wouldn't it be refreshing to hear one of them say "hey - I was just having some fun that night - it doesn't take anything away from the love I have for my wife and family.

#2 sounds like what I expect a lot of people feel. Although intellectually they understand that it may be unreasonable and unnatural to demand a lifetime of fidelity from their partner, they just can't wrap their mind around the thought of their partner enjoying sex with someone else. We don't have to label this insecurity, jealousy, or mental illness to recognize that if either person has that strong emotional reaction, it would be foolish and dangerous for either to experiment with sexual experiences with others.

You described the rationale for a monogamoous relationship beautifully. If that works for you, keep at it. Most people in our society are striving to achieve just what you described. But the problem comes when one or the other "cheats". Even if it was just once - even if it didn't really mean anything - many react with such a sense of betrayal that they are perfectly willing to throw away years of shared joys and love. Even single acts of adultery are grounds for divorce in every state - and our courts are full of "betrayed" spouses taking full advantage of those laws.

Seeking sex with another person absolutely does not have to mean that you are "bored" with your spouse. I used the words "unreasonable" and "unnatural" when talking about fidelity and monogamy. Before this stirs the waters again - let me explain.

It is a basic element of our nature to seek variety in all we do. It doesn't matter how great a job you have, after doing it a few years, you get restless and start thinking about what else you could do. It doesn't matter if you've been served your favorite meal, in your favorite restaurant, you look at the plate being served at the next table and wonder what it would taste like (the longing to sample your neighbor's food would be even more intense if you had been eating the same meal, in the same place, for months or years). It doesn't matter how much you love your favorite author or musician, you want to read books and listen to music by others.

Only in the marriage contract does society require an absolute promise that you will "cleave" to one thing and "forsake all others", for the rest of your life.

Then, the forbidden fruit thing kicks in. If you don't think that is a factor, try going on a no carb no dairy diet for a while. Even if you never liked them much before, after a couple of weeks, all you can think about is bread, pasta, and ice cream.

So, monogamy is hard. Because it forces us to suppress our natural craving for variety, it is also unnatural.

Many monogamous couples can do this, despite the difficulty, without apparent difficulty.They are worthy of respect and admiration. Others remain monogamous, but do so by repressing natural sexual desires in ways that manifest themselves in other, unhealthy behavior (fighting, anger, depression, withdrawal, irrational outbursts, etc). Then there are those (numbering in the millions) who cannot meet this high standard. When that happens, all hell breaks loose.

Think of all the drama, heartache, broken homes, broken families, damage to innocent children, violence, and chaos that we experience in our world - because so many people "cheat" and so many people will not understand that an occaisional sexual experience with another person does not have to mean an irreparable break from the love and respect that previously existed in their relationship.

To Hockeybobby - "bringing about world peace through promoting dialog" is probably stretching it a bit (although that was a great comment - I'll think about it).

But it would be nice to think that dialogs like this might contribute, in some small way, to greater understanding between otherwise loving couples, or greater domestic harmony, if infidelity does occur.

Having said all that, I still would rather talk about the ideal fantasy woman. And I must say that Princessjas is coming pretty close.

jennsweet
08-05-2010, 07:26 PM
^got some spare time huh?

classyguy
08-05-2010, 07:30 PM
Not any more

jack0177057
08-06-2010, 04:53 PM
If you can't spank me and make me your dirty little slut then basically I've got zero interest.

Can I cane and whip you, too? }:D

jack0177057
08-06-2010, 05:56 PM
Think of all the drama, heartache, broken homes, broken families, damage to innocent children, violence, and chaos that we experience in our world - because so many people "cheat" and so many people will not understand that an occaisional sexual experience with another person does not have to mean an irreparable break from the love and respect that previously existed in their relationship.

While I agree that honest swinging is better than fraudulent monogamy, I don't think swingers are immune from drama, heartache, broken homes, broken families, damage to innocent children, violence, and chaos.

My grandmother was not a swinger, but, she tolerated my grandfather's infidelities (in those days, in their country in South America, it was unheard of for a woman to leave her husband, and they had to put up with everything). At one point, my grandfather had two other families besides his "legitimate" family... The "illegitimate" kids suffered and the "legitimate" kids suffered, each set of them resenting the other. My grandmother suffered and the mistresses suffered, each one jealous of the other... everybody suffered. Even my grandfather suffered in the end, because some of his children (both "legit" and "illegit") grew to despise him and had issues growing up.

Humans have a lot of obnoxious and base inclinations - wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony - but, we can't resolve the human conflict of temptation by approving of base conduct - e.g., men are full of lust, so let's approve of sexual licentiousness; men are full of greed, so let's be more accepting of scoundrels like Bernie Madoff, etc...

Discipline is the control over base desires like wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. But, discipline is not easy, it takes a lot of practice and effort, and there are lapses along the way. But, the answer to the problem is not to encourage absence of discipline. I am sure that swingers also have "rules" and "boundaries" and that people "cheat" by violating them.

There is a fictional story -- Brave New World -- about a futuristic perfect society were monogamy is outlawed, because it makes people jealous, possessive, insecure and territorial. Recreational sex is an integral part of society and is a social activity, rather than a means of reproduction. Sexual activity is encouraged from early childhood. The maxim "everyone belongs to everyone else" is repeated often, and the idea of a "family" is considered pornographic.

A man and a woman fall in love and desire to be together exclusively... This is offensive to sociey, but they hide and risk their lives to be together.

classyguy
08-06-2010, 09:20 PM
But you keep citing extreme examples - that are easy to agree with - and that really don't address the point we are talking about. We're talking about partners who are willing to accept an occaisional sexual fling, with a safe and discrete partner. We're not talking about gang bangs or bigamy. Doesn't that make a difference?

And wrath, greed, sloth, and what Bernie Madoff did, are bad things. Sex is a good thing.

I'm encouraged though that we do seem to be developing some common ground. Princess sounds pretty hot doesn't she.

Casual Observer
08-08-2010, 05:24 AM
There are hundreds of ways to "spice" up sex when it gets "boring" and two people that "love" each other should be willing to explore them all before giving up on each other.

This belies the fact that even in the strongest relationships, familiarity breeds contempt, even sexually. Maybe especially sexually.

If my partner has an itch she wants to scratch, I have zero issues with that, so long as she abides by three basic rules: be safe, be discreet, enjoy yourself. I don't attach any labels to that, and that's half the problem with this discussion--people get so busy trying to categorize and define the behavior of others in an attempt to validate and affirm their own behavior choices. It's just unnecessary and ultimately polarizing.

Pretending that we as individuals are the be-all-end-all sexual experience for our partners is simply ridiculous, ego-centric and denies the basic nature of the human experience.

Golden_Rule
08-08-2010, 12:09 PM
If you say it is possible to love romantically without being the least bit possessive and exclusive, and that you've done it,... then, it is possible... But, I've never meet anyone like that... It is rare.

You are correct on both counts: It is possible and it is rare.

When I was very much involved in he swingers community I saw jealousy being the major component that broke swinging couples up. Most people just can't handle it long haul.

I, on the other hand, never experienced jealousy personally. I believe jealousy is all about self-esteem issues and/or mistrust. If you don't believe you are good enough for someone, work on yourself. If you can't, or don't, trust your lover figure out why. If it's a good reason you need a new lover. Sitting about feeling jealous is simply a waste of time in my book.

That said I will point out that the topic at hand: What is and isn't monogamy and what is and isn't cheating, has little directly to do with jealousy.


I don't think the no-extras dancer is "cheating" when she is only dancing, because this is only entertainment... And I don't think her BF is "cheating" when he is buying lapdances from her friends, because again, this is only entertainment (just like jerking off to porn is not "cheating")... But, any "extra" by either of them is cheating.

That's just the point. That would only count if YOU were in the relationship with the dancer in question.

If a woman is involved in a committed relationship with an actor and he has a kissing scene and she believes kissing other women, even when acting, is cheating then that is the way she will perceive it and to her she feels cheated on if he kisses the other actress during a scene.

If the boyfriend of the dancer believes it is cheating when she wiggles her naked breasts or her g-string covered buttocks at a man during an air dance in his mind he's been cheated on if his girl-friend does that.

When it comes to relationships perception is reality.

So the idea is to TRULY COMMUNICATE with anyone you intend to become committed to so as to know that you are on the same page about the topic of what constitutes a committed relationship. Make sure you continue to do so as you grow and change together. You'll prevent a lot of misery that way.

Golden_Rule
08-08-2010, 12:45 PM
we all play the monogamy game.... until the price is right LOL. you'd turn down 10G for a one night fuck? ......BULLSHIT:)

You do know that your quoted comment above is a paraphrasing of the punch line of a very old joke.


Middle-aged man in a strip-club to a dancer: I find you very attractive and incredibly sexy. Would you consider having sex with me for $One Million$ ?

Dancer to Middle-aged man: I might.

Middle-aged man to dancer: How about $500$ ?

Dancer to Middle-aged man: Of course not! What do you think I am, a hooker?

Middle-aged man to Dancer: Madam, we have already established what you are, now we are just negotiating price.

Golden_Rule
08-08-2010, 12:53 PM
Because I did discuss it with my partner before I went into stripping. And it's not so much a matter of "checking with" as much as it's a matter of being open with them and discussing it, as opposed to doing it in secret. If my partner knows what I do already when we meet and decides to proceed with a relationship, there might not be much to discuss. If someone decides to go into sex work, I think that's something the partner deserves to know.

Agreed.

The only thing I see missing, and it may simply have been unspoken on your part and not missing at all then, is that knowledge that people change attitudes and beliefs as they grow with experience and age.

So while a partner may be fully aware, and comfortable, with their other half being involved in sex work that may change over time. The communication has to remain constant. It's not enough that it was simply done upfront at the very beginning of the relationship.

jack0177057
08-09-2010, 01:44 PM
Pretending that we as individuals are the be-all-end-all sexual experience for our partners is simply ridiculous, ego-centric and denies the basic nature of the human experience.

You are being as judgmental as a monogamous person stating that swinging is immature and immoral.

We each weigh all the pros and all the cons, and decide for ourselves what is the best option. That doesn't mean that a monogamous person will never feel temptation to "cheat" nor does it mean that a swinger will never feel jealousy. We are in eternal conflict because both monogamy and polygamy are "natural" elements in the human psyche. (Even though one may be stronger than the other.)

By all accounts, monogamy should be dead. My parents' generation experimented with hippie "free love" and swinging parties. My generation (I'm 38 ) spent its college years casually hooking up. We drank alcohol, got high and fucked to release tension before and after exams. If all these advances were in the "right" direction, why are most of us still reverting to monogamy as we grow up and "mature"?

I spent 15 years of my life trying to fuck as many different hot girls as I possibly could. Often, the fantasy of fucking them was a lot better than the reality. Often, the bragging rights were worth more than the actual sexual experience. Now, I plan on spending the next 30 years fucking one very special hot girl as many different ways as I can. She is my partner in every aspect of my life. The sexual variety with her comes from trying different things, I'm just limited by my creativity. The sex is so much hotter because I am not doing it for my ego or bragging rights, I am doing it purely for her and my deep sexual fulfillment.

classyguy
08-10-2010, 10:54 PM
OK Jack - Here's the question. Its squarely on the point that this debate has raised.

The question is "what would you do?"

You have told us repeatedly how much you love your woman, how much she means to you, and how you expect to spend the rest of your life with her. I believe you.

So, if you learned that she had a sexual fling with another - but she told you it didn't take anything away from the love that she feels for you - would you throw away the whole relationship? Would you kick her out and file for divorce?

What would you do? (and responding that she would never do that is dodging the question)

jack0177057
08-11-2010, 08:47 AM
^ I wouldn't know until it happened - that's the honest answer. My choices would be:

(1) Terminate the relationship because of her deceit and lack of self-control (more than the fling itself). This would end the relationship in anger and resentment.

(2) Forgive her, but terminate the relationship because of lack of compatibility. Obviously we want and need different things. If my GF wants to swing, she's better off with another partner, so breaking up is a mutually beneficial thing. We can still be friends. We can even be fuckbuddies (and she's free to fuck other people), until I find a new monogamous partner.

(3) Forgive her and continue to be her BF, but write her off as non-marriageable - again, for reasons of honesty, compatibility and concerns over her discipline and self-control.

(4) Forgive her and experiment with an "open" relationship. I doubt this, but who knows. Like I said, just because I've decided to be in a monogamous relationship, doesn't mean I don't lust for other women. (But before you ask why am I depriving myself of what is a "natural" passion - consider that when I was promiscuous, I fantasized about meeting someone very special to be in a monogamous relationship with. -- So both fantasies and desires exist in my psyche: to fuck many hot insubstantial girls, but marry one very special substantial girl (the "ONE") and be exclusive with her. Also, keep in mind that my requirements for a marriage candidate are very long and my standards very high, so only ONE (or at the very best, one in a million) is worthy of such exclusivity.)

(5) I could experiment with "swinging". I doubt this, but who knows.... (same comments as above apply).

lemiwinks31
08-11-2010, 10:45 AM
OK Jack - Here's the question. Its squarely on the point that this debate has raised.

The question is "what would you do?"

You have told us repeatedly how much you love your woman, how much she means to you, and how you expect to spend the rest of your life with her. I believe you.

So, if you learned that she had a sexual fling with another - but she told you it didn't take anything away from the love that she feels for you - would you throw away the whole relationship? Would you kick her out and file for divorce?

What would you do? (and responding that she would never do that is dodging the question)


Not Jack, but I will answer this.......

1) My wife......She would never do that........but your question, your rules...

fine.

Yes, the relationship would be over. Because knowing that she was risking our whole relationship....she did it anyway....for something that meant nothing to her. That means she did not value our relationship nearly as much as I did.

I would expect the same from her if I did it. Which is why i have never remotely considered cheating on her. (other than in fantasy, which i share with her)

Golden_Rule
08-11-2010, 02:37 PM
So, if you learned that she had a sexual fling with another - but she told you it didn't take anything away from the love that she feels for you - would you throw away the whole relationship? Would you kick her out and file for divorce?

What would you do? (and responding that she would never do that is dodging the question)

The answer to this in a monogamous relationship is pretty cut and dry, but not the knee jerk response that most people, I gather, would think of first.

You have to ask and find out the answer to two questions:

The first is to ask yourself if you still love her enough to want to stay. If the answer is yes then you find out the answer to question number two.

You ask her if she wants to stay with you, keeping to your agreed upon standards.

If the answer to that is yes the rest is communication, working out the fine details, regaining trust and healing. [You know, the hard part]

If the answer to either question is truly no, you leave.

she sells sanctuary
08-12-2010, 10:23 AM
classyguy...do you fantasize about being cuckolded? does that turn you on?

a lot of guys are into that.

classyguy
08-12-2010, 08:36 PM
Of course not. "Cuckolded" is another word that is laced with all sorts of negative connotations. It implies deceict. It implies something done behind my back. It implies making a fool of me. The cuckolded husband merits pity or scorn, depending on the circumstances.

Sorry to disapoint, but the humiliation thread was started by sissy. No disrepect to him
(... whatever floats your boat ...), but I just don't get it. Being humiliated does not turn me on.

This thread is about the perfect woman - and about the perfect relationship.

I'm suggesting that my perfect woman is one who loves me enough, and who is confident enough in herself, to understand and accept that, although I love her completely, situations may arise when I want to fuck someone else.

I'm suggesting that the perfect relationship is one where she enjoys the same love, respect, and trust. If she does something that makes her feel good, I can be happy for her.

Because I love her.

Just like I am happy if she gets a promotion at work - or if she wins an award - or if she experiences anything else in her life that makes her happy.

I think that's what true love means.

But that's just me.

salemsexy
08-12-2010, 09:38 PM
I am a stripper and thats got nothing to do with my view on cheating.

A real loving realtiohship to me is being 100% faithful in everyway and my view has not gotten more open because of my job at all..

I don't work in clubs with that much contact as you talked about. If i did i could see that hard for a man to take that.

but again stripping is a job sure maybe its fun and a great way to party but i do not consider it cheating. Nor do i want to be in a realtionship with a man who cheats or goes to strip clubs..

Thats my personal choice and i stick to it.

We are not stripping to get cheap thrills or fill a sexual need it's a job only the guys who come to strip clubs are looking at it in a sexual way.

If i was dating a man who felt what i was doing was sexual and felt that made it ok for him to do something with a nother woman no questions asked he would be out the door..

Thats how i live my life anyways, i don't take crap like that..

princessjas
08-13-2010, 06:45 AM
^^While I respect that view, I don't think most of us that prefer open relationships do so because of the job. I was able to dance because of my open view of sexuality, the job didn't influence who I was....who I was just made it easier to be naked in front of a baziilion peeps.

IMHO cheating is what the couple has defined it as and it's pretty much a dealbreaker. Being lied to and deceived is never an acceptable thing. Peeps need to be honest even about the stuff that is hard, gawd knows I'm flawed as all get out but I at least own it.

jack0177057
08-13-2010, 07:45 AM
This thread is about the perfect woman - and about the perfect relationship.

I'm suggesting that my perfect woman is one who loves me enough, and who is confident enough in herself, to understand and accept that, although I love her completely, situations may arise when I want to fuck someone else.

I'm suggesting that the perfect relationship is one where she enjoys the same love, respect, and trust. If she does something that makes her feel good, I can be happy for her.

Because I love her.

This sounds like a female best friend. I had someone like this a long time ago (we still keep in touch) - we both knew that as a "traditional couple" we wouldn't work out. For one thing, she was very ambitious and had no desire to "settle down" with family responsibilities. (On the other hand, I have always wanted a family.) She was certain to be (and is) an outstanding career woman, but not likely to be the best mom, if she ever decides to be one (very unlikely). I respected, encouraged and admired her in every way and she was my best friend for life. I even felt a crush for her once in while, but realized "love" would ruin our friendship. She and I were sexually involved with other people, but did not have the same "connection" with anyone else.

So, my point is -- it only worked out with her, because she was my "best friend" and not my wife.

Having a wife, even if you swing, will necessarily involve responsibilities, restraints, commitments and sacrifices -- things you obviously don't want. A wife is a partner in the creation of a family and a partner in your finances, wealth, assets, etc. You will have tense disagreements about how money is spent, who does more around the house, spending enought time with the family, how to control and discipline the children, etc..., etc..., etc... Swinging with your wife poses many practical issues/risks -- e.g., stds, pregnancy (you getting someone else pregnant or her having someone else's child), hygiene, distractions from family responsibilities, expensive gifts to other lovers, spending more time with other lovers, etc..., etc..., etc...

My Islamic friend tells me that in her faith polygamy (one man with several wives) is permitted, but only if he loves and treats them all the same. She correctly adds - but that is impossible - so she will not live in a polygamous marriage. Same thing would apply with an "open" relationship. She'll love you the most (maybe), but some other dude has a bigger dick or is rougher in bed (and therefore better). Maybe he gets her involved in some kinky stuff that is hot to them, but gross to you - like licking each other's assholes... Let's say you're not jealous, you say - Well, fuck him all you want, go at it. - But, she spends more nights at his house than at yours. If you have kids, you'll feel that she's not carrying her weight, because she's leaving you to watch the kids when she's out fucking around... or vice versa - she may not be jealous of your other sex partners, but she wants you back in 30 minutes to "spend time with the kids" and take them to the zoo, but your mistress wants you to take her shopping for lingerie, instead.

One most days, I can barely deal with the demands of one woman,... but you want to have to deal with several of them? (No offense to female readers - you're all precious creatures.)

So, why not just find a best friend with benefits? -- Avoid all the complexities of marriage and family altogether. -- This is what I don't understand.

Jessie_tinydancer
08-13-2010, 08:16 AM
^LOL Jack you make swinging sound waaaaaaay more complicated than it is.

jack0177057
08-13-2010, 08:27 AM
^ Jessie_tinydancer - If I ever change my views on this (a few more of your pics might do it), I'm hoping you can teach me to do it right.

But seriously - I'm a bordeline sex-addict - I need sex all the time. My GF doesn't have the same level of libido, but she accomodates me as much as possible (like with HJs or BJs, when we've already had sex that day and she's not in the mood to it again). In a monogamous relationship, my sex-addiction is not a major problem (so long as my GF is accomodating and I am willing to settle for HJs). But,... if I got into swinging, it would totally consume me... things would get out of control... I would chase after swinger girls every minute of my free time. Between work (I work about 50-60 hours a week) and swinging, there wouldn't time left for anything else productive, "romantic" or family-related in my life. Also, what's the point of having a "wife" if I'm spending all my free time chasing other sex partners? It would get too complicated...

princessjas
08-13-2010, 11:06 AM
This sounds like a female best friend. I had someone like this a long time ago (we still keep in touch) - we both knew that as a "traditional couple" we wouldn't work out. For one thing, she was very ambitious and had no desire to "settle down" with family responsibilities. (On the other hand, I have always wanted a family.) She was certain to be (and is) an outstanding career woman, but not likely to be the best mom, if she ever decides to be one (very unlikely). I respected, encouraged and admired her in every way and she was my best friend for life. I even felt a crush for her once in while, but realized "love" would ruin our friendship. She and I were sexually involved with other people, but did not have the same "connection" with anyone else.

So, my point is -- it only worked out with her, because she was my "best friend" and not my wife.

Having a wife, even if you swing, will necessarily involve responsibilities, restraints, commitments and sacrifices -- things you obviously don't want. A wife is a partner in the creation of a family and a partner in your finances, wealth, assets, etc. You will have tense disagreements about how money is spent, who does more around the house, spending enought time with the family, how to control and discipline the children, etc..., etc..., etc... Swinging with your wife poses many practical issues/risks -- e.g., stds, pregnancy (you getting someone else pregnant or her having someone else's child), hygiene, distractions from family responsibilities, expensive gifts to other lovers, spending more time with other lovers, etc..., etc..., etc...

My Islamic friend tells me that in her faith polygamy (one man with several wives) is permitted, but only if he loves and treats them all the same. She correctly adds - but that is impossible - so she will not live in a polygamous marriage. Same thing would apply with an "open" relationship. She'll love you the most (maybe), but some other dude has a bigger dick or is rougher in bed (and therefore better). Maybe he gets her involved in some kinky stuff that is hot to them, but gross to you - like licking each other's assholes... Let's say you're not jealous, you say - Well, fuck him all you want, go at it. - But, she spends more nights at his house than at yours. If you have kids, you'll feel that she's not carrying her weight, because she's leaving you to watch the kids when she's out fucking around... or vice versa - she may not be jealous of your other sex partners, but she wants you back in 30 minutes to "spend time with the kids" and take them to the zoo, but your mistress wants you to take her shopping for lingerie, instead.

One most days, I can barely deal with the demands of one woman,... but you want to have to deal with several of them? (No offense to female readers - you're all precious creatures.)

So, why not just find a best friend with benefits? -- Avoid all the complexities of marriage and family altogether. -- This is what I don't understand.

First off I find it rather offensive that you keep insisting that any open relationship is like a fuckbuddy situation. It's like you are telling us "No, you really don't care about your partner." You have no clue what any of us feel or don't feel, and acting like you do is getting a bit monotonous.

Secondly, there are all different sorts of arrangements to the completely open like you are describing to the only when I'm there types, or the no dates only sex types....I could go on and on. A lot of people in these situations have rules about spending more time with their partner, no overnights, must be put first, etc. If you aren't open about what your expectations are then it will surely blow up in your face. Somehow you make it sound dramalicious, but in reality my monogamous relationships always had twice the drama of my more open arrangements.

Kellydancer
08-13-2010, 11:27 AM
This sounds like a female best friend. I had someone like this a long time ago (we still keep in touch) - we both knew that as a "traditional couple" we wouldn't work out. For one thing, she was very ambitious and had no desire to "settle down" with family responsibilities. (On the other hand, I have always wanted a family.) She was certain to be (and is) an outstanding career woman, but not likely to be the best mom, if she ever decides to be one (very unlikely)..

This part bothers me because it implies a lot. It implies that career women can't have a family and be family orientated. I can be both a career woman and a mother and don't see why it's not possible. Yet if we switched it, saying a man couldn't be a great dad because he was a career man, people would argue. This bothers me tremendously that guys still think this way. I don't think monogamy, swinging, etc has anything to do with whether one wants a family of not. I've known people in open marriages who were childless and others who had children, same with monogamous families.

Personally, I've known these types of non monogamous couples. One couple was a porn couple. Both were actors and they produced movies, often the one would film the movie with the other. They also attended swingers parties. Another couple was into the swinging parties but didn't make videos. A third couple had an agreement that they could date others, sleep with others, just not around each other. Still another couple would bring home a third person. For some of them it was just sex, but for others there was a bond with the additional person. I also knew a monogamous couple that would attend swinger parties to watch and participate only with themselves. Did they become full blown swingers? I doubt it because they were jealous but loved to watch others.

princessjas
08-13-2010, 11:37 AM
^ Jessie_tinydancer - If I ever change my views on this (a few more of your pics might do it), I'm hoping you can teach me to do it right.

But seriously - I'm a bordeline sex-addict - I need sex all the time. My GF doesn't have the same level of libido, but she accomodates me as much as possible (like with HJs or BJs, when we've already had sex that day and she's not in the mood to it again). In a monogamous relationship, my sex-addiction is not a major problem (so long as my GF is accomodating and I am willing to settle for HJs). But,... if I got into swinging, it would totally consume me... things would get out of control... I would chase after swinger girls every minute of my free time. Between work (I work about 50-60 hours a week) and swinging, there wouldn't time left for anything else productive, "romantic" or family-related in my life. Also, what's the point of having a "wife" if I'm spending all my free time chasing other sex partners? It would get too complicated...

These are your issues and not really a problem in most open relationships. I know of several girls who have complained that their partner rarely if ever wants to introduce another person anymore. If you really wanted to be with your partner more than anyone else, you'd be chasing after HER most of the time, not random other women. To be in an open relationship you have to want your partner more than anything, imho.

jack0177057
08-13-2010, 11:54 AM
First off I find it rather offensive that you keep insisting that any open relationship is like a fuckbuddy situation. It's like you are telling us "No, you really don't care about your partner." You have no clue what any of us feel or don't feel, and acting like you do is getting a bit monotonous.

I was speaking directly to the OP. Based on his posts, it seems to me he wants to avoid all the jealousies, insecurities, heartaches and drama of a traditional marriage, and my point is, swinging is not a magic pill that is going to guarantee that your marriage will last forever and be perfect. I think the OP is better off in a fuckbuddy or best-friends-with-benefits situation.

Secondly, I tried to emphasize how much I cared for, admired and respected P. She was not a mere "fuckbuddy" whom I didn't care about, she was a person I loved and cared for a lot (best friend forever), but without the drama of romantic "love". As best friends, we did a lot more than just fuck, we spent a LOT of non-sexual time together. But, if I had tried to make her my GF or wife, she would have resented the effort. SHE was too wild and free to consider such things. I never imposed my views, attitudes, beliefs, etc. on her and she never imposed hers on me. This was probably the best relationship I ever had with a woman, but marriage would have certainly screwed it up.

The point I'm trying to make is that men and women have more flexibility to define their relationship in a "friendship", than in a "marriage". I've had great female friends over the years (both with benefits and without benefits) and I don't see "friendship" as a negative, the way you do. If I look back on my life, I miss my female friends more than my GFs. I've selected some GF on artifical things, like how attractive they were, but my female friends were selected based on deeper things like mutual respect and admiration and comraderie. A few friends became GFs, and more often than not, that was a mistake.


A lot of people in these situations have rules about spending more time with their partner, no overnights, must be put first, etc.

That defeats the whole point, though. The OP does not want "rules", he wants freedom.


This part bothers me because it implies a lot. It implies that career women can't have a family and be family orientated. I can be both a career woman and a mother and don't see why it's not possible.

I did not intend to imply that. I was talking about one particular individual who had no intention of "settling down" or being a mom. In fact, she is now bisexual and is currently living with a female lover. (She went bi ten years after our last sexual encounter, so don't blame me.)

Also, there is another post here where women complain about the societal assumption that all single women dream about getting married and raising kids... Both assumptions are wrong. Some career woman want marriage and kids... some don't.

jack0177057
08-13-2010, 03:11 PM
If you really wanted to be with your partner more than anyone else, you'd be chasing after HER most of the time, not random other women.

I do want to be with my partner more than anyone else, that's why my other activities are limited to high contact lap dances. For ME (I am only saying what works for me), that's my limit - beyond that, raw uncontrollable lust would take over the driver's seat and overpower romantic "love" and all my other faculties.


To be in an open relationship you have to want your partner more than anything, imho.

When you sample too many different flavors, you tend to get a bit indecisive about which is your favorite flavor. -- Karen is cute, petite, sweet, tender and sensual. Margaret gives amazing head. Carol fucks like the world is ending and she has the strongest orgasms. Lilly is the tighest of them all. Jen knows how to ride cock the best in the woman-on-top position.

I might love my GF or wife profoundly on an emotional and spiritual level,... but when it comes to sex, she becomes just 1 out of 36 different flavors in a swinger lifestyle.

princessjas
08-13-2010, 03:47 PM
I do want to be with my partner more than anyone else, that's why my other activities are limited to high contact lap dances. For ME (I am only saying what works for me), that's my limit - beyond that, raw uncontrollable lust would take over the driver's seat and overpower romantic "love" and all my other faculties.



When you sample too many different flavors, you tend to get a bit indecisive about which is your favorite flavor. -- Karen is cute, petite, sweet, tender and sensual. Margaret gives amazing head. Carol fucks like the world is ending and she has the strongest orgasms. Lilly is the tighest of them all. Jen knows how to ride cock the best in the woman-on-top position.

I might love my GF or wife profoundly on an emotional and spiritual level,... but when it comes to sex, she becomes just 1 out of 36 different flavors in a swinger lifestyle.

See, I can't relate to this in any way. I have never compared lovers. Each person I've been with has been unique and to me it seems immature as hell and completely pointless to compare them to one another. Plus, why would someone be your primary partner if they weren't your exact "flavor?" I just don't get that one.

Jessie_tinydancer
08-13-2010, 05:52 PM
Hey Jack I do respect the fact that you recognise your weakness and you want to stay true to your partner. And I believe that swinging and more alternative relationships are definitely not for everyone. Just in regard to the flavour thing... I can tell you that there really is nothing more satifying than sex with the person you love. We have one cpl that we refer to as our "favourite" .. The 4 of us get along so well it's rediculous. So much fun! We've known them for almost 5 years now... And I can still say my number 1 experience ever is still with hubby... Love and sex just makes the ultimate experience. Why did I mention that cpl? Because they would come second... Because I know them so well I can be crazy confident and sure I'm not in love with them but they would beat a new flavour every time. Flavours are good but they are more of a novelty. Just another perspective to demonstrate it can't fit in a box. Also rules are absolutely essential in every open relationship. I've never met anyone in one with no rules. There's two of u... There's no way you both have the exact same needs...

jack0177057
08-13-2010, 06:30 PM
Princessjas & Jessie_tinydancer

I think its wonderful that you guys have made it work in a romantic "true love" situation (again, I could make it work in a "best friends" situation - but not a romantic "true love" & marriage situation).

I said it before - monogamy should be dead after the sexual revolution, the hippie "free love" movement, the "sexual liberation" of women, the "hook-up" college culture, the ecstacy rave parties, etc. -- all these things should have awakened us to a new world of free sexual expression and experimentation, non-jealousy, non-possessiveness, non-insecurity, etc,.... but yet, most of us keep coming back to monogamy (even after experimenting with the thrills of promiscuity). I am surprised that we (monogamous people) are not just an old-fashioned antiquated minority.

The OP should be encouraged that there are some women that will give him the sexual freedom he wants, but he should not try to impose his enlightened views on a woman who doesn't share his vision of utopia.

classyguy
08-13-2010, 10:51 PM
Where did you ever get the idea that I don't think there sould be rules? I've repeated many things that I think should be reasonable rules.

Outside encounters should be "occaisional" (because we don't want to take away time from the kids). The partners should be safe (because we want to do our best not to bring home STDs). The partners should be discrete (because neither of us want our friends, neighbors, or family to think we are being cuckolded). No falling in love (just because). ... etc.

And no gang bangs (because ... well ... that would just be totally unfair! - I'm not bad - but there is no way I could ever gang bang 6 or 7 women ... so, if I can't do it .....)

And where did you ever get the idea that I would impose my ideas on anyone who is not willing?

Kellydancer
08-13-2010, 11:21 PM
I did not intend to imply that. I was talking about one particular individual who had no intention of "settling down" or being a mom. In fact, she is now bisexual and is currently living with a female lover. (She went bi ten years after our last sexual encounter, so don't blame me.)

Also, there is another post here where women complain about the societal assumption that all single women dream about getting married and raising kids... Both assumptions are wrong. Some career woman want marriage and kids... some don't.

No problem, I just always wonder when I read comments because there are a few like that here. You always seem rational to me but had to wonder. You are exactly right that some career women want kids and some don't. I've actually known a few high powered career women who definitely didn't want kids, but many still did.

Golden_Rule
08-14-2010, 06:43 PM
IMHO cheating is what the couple has defined it as and it's pretty much a dealbreaker. Being lied to and deceived is never an acceptable thing. Peeps need to be honest even about the stuff that is hard, gawd knows I'm flawed as all get out but I at least own it.

If you stopped at the text in bold you would have been 100% on the money.

Cheating is what the two, three, four or more in the relationship have defined it as. What anyone else thinks, or society's view in general, is all well and good but doesn't enter into it.


^LOL Jack you make swinging sound waaaaaaay more complicated than it is.

I use to help run what was, at the time, the singular largest swingers meeting and self-help organization in the world. I can tell you from direct observation of hundreds of swinging couples, and indirect involvement with thousands more, that because of the nature of human beings it is frequently complicated.

In fact so much so that I saw many more couples who swing fall apart then stay together.

Unfortunate, but true.

classyguy
08-14-2010, 09:57 PM
I use to help run what was, at the time, the singular largest swingers meeting and self-help organization in the world. I can tell you from direct observation of hundreds of swinging couples, and indirect involvement with thousands more, that because of the nature of human beings it is frequently complicated.

In fact so much so that I saw many more couples who swing fall apart then stay together.

Unfortunate, but true.


That is really interesting. Why do you think that is?

Jessie_tinydancer
08-15-2010, 01:28 AM
If you stopped at the text in bold you would have been 100% on the money.

Cheating is what the two, three, four or more in the relationship have defined it as. What anyone else thinks, or society's view in general, is all well and good but doesn't enter into it.



I use to help run what was, at the time, the singular largest swingers meeting and self-help organization in the world. I can tell you from direct observation of hundreds of swinging couples, and indirect involvement with thousands more, that because of the nature of human beings it is frequently complicated.

In fact so much so that I saw many more couples who swing fall apart then stay together.

Unfortunate, but true.

Swingers meeting and self help organization? I dont get it so it was for swingers who need help??

Of all the couples we've ever met... granted its been only 5 years... But probably 30+ couples. Only 2 have broken up. One was because one partner had a drug addiction and the other was because one partner was only 19 and she decided to go back to university and had to move home which was on the other side of the world. I'm sure divorce rates are probably the same as the general population. No better, no worse. A lot of people break up.

Golden_Rule
08-15-2010, 05:19 PM
Swingers meeting and self help organization? I dont get it so it was for swingers who need help??

Of all the couples we've ever met... granted its been only 5 years... But probably 30+ couples. Only 2 have broken up. One was because one partner had a drug addiction and the other was because one partner was only 19 and she decided to go back to university and had to move home which was on the other side of the world. I'm sure divorce rates are probably the same as the general population. No better, no worse. A lot of people break up.


That is really interesting. Why do you think that is?

It dated back to pre-WWW days when the big way to get connected by computers were bulletin board systems. These systems were local and could have hundreds, maybe thousands, of members. However they were also connected with each other, nationally and internationally, through a network technology created by Tom Jennings called "Fido Net", which was the largest amateur computer network in the world.

"Adult Links", which was the BBS network whose management I was involved with* , used Fido Net technology to interconnect tens of thousands of swinging couples throughout North America, South America, Europe and Australia.

It was "self-help" as its forums were geared toward swingers helping other swingers with their questions about the life-style and how to handle the various aspects of it. The meeting part was obvious. Many thousands of small parties and get-togethers game out of the connections made on the network.

Twice annually we had a major get-together on what had been a farm outside of Rochester, NY.

Over 30 something years I have known these couples and more than half of them have broken up. Now I presume the majority had to do with the same things that break up most couples and 50% is about average for the married population of the US in general. However I know a fair share of them broke up due to the long term effects of living a life-style that pulls at the very human traits of jealousy and insecurity. Most of these having to do with too many times going outside some boundary that had been set. Boundaries not usual to non-swinging couples. [This is why my most given advice to couples in the the life-style is to set boundaries both can live within, understand them completely and hold to them]

The bottom line of it is that swinging requires couples that truly have their ca-ca together. People being people most of us don't have our shit together well enough to handle the extra tensions swinging can put on a relationship over the long haul.

There are couples that hold it together short term [five years of less] but long term its the rare couple that has their jealousies and insecurities so well in check that they don't eventually become an issue. At that point they get out of swinging or start having real problems.

*I was the regional coordinator for SE New York - including NYC, NJ and Eastern PA.

I did it until I started advancing in the law enforcement agency I worked for and they got wind of it. At that point they pointed out the moral turpitude clause in our contract and suggested I not help run international swingers organizations if I wanted to maintain my position within the agency. I stayed involved with the life-style but backed out of organizing.

Elvia
08-15-2010, 05:21 PM
In fact so much so that I saw many more couples who swing fall apart then stay together.

Unfortunate, but true.


Isn't that true of most couples in general though? Most relationships do end, after all.

Golden_Rule
08-15-2010, 05:40 PM
Isn't that true of most couples in general though? Most relationships do end, after all.

Yes, at least 50%. So my experience is that its not more than the average.

Still I saw couple break up over things that, while not unique to swinging, were present in their lives directly because of it.

As I said above, mostly due to violating some boundary/rule that had been set between them regarding swinging.

Hell, the founders of Adult Links, both bi-sexual, broke up because a third party [female] moved into their home and the wife eventually felt more strongly attached to her. She and her husband broke up and the two women became a couple. Though, in fairness, last time I chatted with them they were still together.

Redwolf
08-16-2010, 08:20 PM
What can I say? Men are weird. I've known that since realizing that they would pay for foreplay in the club, but many would never do it in the bedroom lol. Some things just don't make sense.

That is something for every guy to think about.

classyguy
08-16-2010, 08:24 PM
Don't know, but I'd guess that only about 10% to 20% of all couples in a comitted relationship end up getting married. And, of those that marry, we know that the divorce rate is about 50%. So its safe to say that the vast majority of monogamous relationships fall apart too.

If jealosy and insecurity are problems for those in open relationships, they're also problems for those in monogamous relationships.

Perhaps we could all agree that all of us need to work at overcoming our jealosies and insecurities,

Seems to me that open couples at least deserve kudos for confronting the issue head-on. In the end ... even if a relationship crashes and burns ... just maybe they might find that they are better people for having made the effort.

salemsexy
08-17-2010, 04:28 AM
if you cant be faithful it's real simple stay single why go throw the crap of having a realtionship when you really want to fuck around!

pick one or the other and own it but dont say true love is your mate being ok with you fucking someone else cause thats just nuts....

Stay single man.

jack0177057
08-17-2010, 08:14 AM
^ That's what I've been saying (but you said it more succinctly).

But, then again,... if there are beautiful and smart women like Princessjas & Jessie_tinydancer that will let their BFs/husbands have the best of both worlds,... the OP might have a chance to find his version of true happiness (i.e., to have his cake and eat his neighbor's cake, too).