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KS_Stevia
09-05-2010, 04:01 PM
LMFAO!!!

And they do "ladies things!"

I love the hell out of Little Britain. Finally bought the complete DVD set last Xmas. Along with Kids In The Hall, they are the funniest group of men in drag EVER!

I've seen everything they've ever done! My SO, or former SO at this point, is a Brit, so he introduced me to the show before it aired in the US.

Another great one, with lots of cross-dressing is "Leaugue of Gentlemen." Its darker, but also very funny.

KS_Stevia
09-05-2010, 04:04 PM
Here's one test: Ask the "girl" for anal sex. All t-girls love anal sex, right? I will only have sex with women that REFUSE and HATE anal sex - this will eliminate all t-girls. Of course some women-by-birth love anal-sex, too - its an imperfect test.


Your mind is so unique jack. But really, relax dude. The likelihood that you've been with a trans woman is very slim. AND, not all trans and gay people are into anal sex. Actually, more than you think aren't down for it, various reasons. So......don't worry so much. 8)

Tasha_xoxo
09-05-2010, 11:35 PM
Have you ever seen any of the prosthetic vaginas?
http://www.transgendered.net/fem-cp.html
I know some of them will wear them under their thongs if they have to sit on the guys lap during a dance.

omg iv never actually seen them.

femmefatale88
09-09-2010, 09:59 PM
It's unbelievable how hot some of them are. I'm like, how does she have such an amazing apple butt with NO cellulite.
Have you ever seen any of the prosthetic vaginas?
http://www.transgendered.net/fem-cp.html
I know some of them will wear them under their thongs if they have to sit on the guys lap during a dance.

wow that is so cool. those vaginas are too bulbous though but i guess there is no getting around that haha.

jack0177057
09-10-2010, 08:32 AM
Your mind is so unique jack. But really, relax dude. The likelihood that you've been with a trans woman is very slim. AND, not all trans and gay people are into anal sex. Actually, more than you think aren't down for it, various reasons. So......don't worry so much. 8)

Not really worried, since I am in a committed relationship right now with a real woman (I've never asked for her birth certificate, but I've seen pics of her dating as far back as a little girl of 4yoa). I was most promiscuous in college and I'm sure those were all real women (it would have been impossible to keep a secret like that in my college). Then, I was married for a while (I know my ex-wife was a real woman, because she had my kids). I dated a few women after that - some were MILFs, so I know they were real women.

When I go to the SCs, I don't buy happy ending extras. So, at the very worst, I get a lap dance in the SC from a hot "woman" that was born a man. If I ever found out about it, it would make me feel sick for a while (no offense to anyone), and probably make me stay away from SCs for a long time, but I could get past it - its just a dance.

SnuffleUffleGrass
09-10-2010, 01:11 PM
Threadjack/Random question- I know some pre-op trans save up money for surgeries, or get people to help them with the cost of gender re-assignment surgery.......but has anyone heard of those surgeries being approved by government health assistance programs? Can those surgeries be covered by health insurers too?

I was reading about an male Army vet turned pre-trans female (just hormones being used) and I started wondering about how some of the superstar trannies get these surgeries paid for....

(Side note, if I was a guy, I'd be all over dating pre-op trannies. I like dong too much lol)

safado
09-10-2010, 03:05 PM
Here are a few quizzes to see if you can find the shemale.

http://joeschwartz.net/shemale/index.html#

http://www.shemalelinkdump.com/test/quiz.php

Rockette
09-11-2010, 11:53 AM
My brother... well, now my sister... actually had a gender reassignment (the politically correct term). I actually referred her to a strip club position, and she danced there for a few years, completely paying off all her medical debt. You really wouldn't know that she wasn't born female unless you were really paying attention...

PleasureVictim
09-11-2010, 01:00 PM
More men are turned on by the idea than you would ever imagine, or they would ever admit.

This is a great thread, I've always wanted to see a man-made vagina.

velvet
09-12-2010, 11:02 PM
that first quiz i got them all right! the second one i only got half.

Pretty_Penny
09-15-2010, 12:22 AM
I don't believe that, with the skimpy g-string and panties a dancer wears, a customer wouldn't notice that she has a penis. Post-sex change... maybe, but definitely not pre-sex-change.

My guess is that these customers knew what they were getting.


As someone who has been fairly good (non work) friends with a post op and whom has also worked with another post op, I can tell you that's not always the case. IF said transexual is on hormone therapy there is often a decent amount of "shrinkage" which happens to the penis. That (or a naturally smaller sized penis) combined with excellent tucking and taping skills fools plenty of people. The transgendered person I worked with got tons of dances and looked great.

Elusive21
12-17-2010, 04:50 PM
^ You girls are way too competitive. I think it would go down like this:

Customer walks in...

Dancer: Hi there, you want some company?

Customer: Thanks, but I'm looking for Candy, I had a great time in the VIP room with her last time I was here, and I want to spend more time with her.

Dancer: Candy?! Are you sure that's what you want? (Looks around, then whispers in his ear.) You do know she's a post-op t-girl, right? Don't go for a fake girl,... take ME to the VIP room - I'm a real girl.

Customer: (Spits out his drink.) Candy used to be a dude?!!! WTF!!! WTF!!! WTF!!! She fucking gave me a... and I fucking licked her... oh, man,... WTF!!! WTF!!! WTF!!! (Goes to the bathroom and vomits profusely.)


my mother in law worked in titty bars in texas in the 1970s and 1980s. She said there were several transexual dancers that danced there, even back in those days. They did make good money and some of the girls would get jealous and tell customers. One transexual dancer was found dead after her secret was found out :(

There's also a transexual post op feature dancer that frequently works in Montana. I don't know her name but have heard of her from other dancers in my club. She apparently looks pretty manly but still makes money.

Raider
12-17-2010, 05:00 PM
Just a heads up. I clicked on links listed above and was warned by my anti-virus software that there was an attempt on my computer that was blocked.

Elusive21
12-17-2010, 05:06 PM
I saw something on HBO's "Real Sex" about this happening I think it was in Hawaii.. They street walk and the guys dont know they're men. One guy even asked and she said "Does this look like a man honey?" And he said hell no and they did the deed. Little does he know.... lol

did the deed? as in the guy getting a blow job from the transexual, or actually having sex with him, but thinking it was a girl the whole time? :O

jayzack
12-17-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't believe that, with the skimpy g-string and panties a dancer wears, a customer wouldn't notice that she has a penis. Post-sex change... maybe, but definitely not pre-sex-change.

My guess is that these customers knew what they were getting.

Exactly. The customer might touch under the panty too.

jester214
12-17-2010, 07:25 PM
I don't know... I've always gotten a vibe.

In Amsterdam I walked down streets of extremely attractive "women". Just looking I knew something wasn't perfectly right. I don't know how but I knew somehow something was off, only later did I figure out exactly why.

livingdeadgirl
12-17-2010, 07:53 PM
BTW, I suspect CO may have a higher number of tranny dancers than many places. Trinidad, CO is considered the sex change capital of the world.



had no idea :O

MarvelGirl
12-17-2010, 08:56 PM
Doesn't that constitute rape by deception in some states?


Yeah, go tell the cops that the prostitute you paid to suck your dick "raped" you by sucking your dick.

Good luck with that.

charlottenh
02-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I have to say as a trans-woman that a lot of the posts in this thread are pretty upsetting.:-[

jack0177057
02-07-2011, 06:37 PM
^ Are you a dancer? If so, do guys know that you are a trans-woman?

Again, my personal opinion is that trans-women should be honest about themselves. I have no problem with trans-women being in the SCs, as long as they are honest.

But, if there is not adequate and honest disclosure, then I will stop going to that SC.

Its nothing against trans-women. But, lap dances are a very personal and intimate service/entertainment and I have a right to make a decision about who provides these services to me and to be very discriminating, based on my personal preferences.

charlottenh
02-07-2011, 06:54 PM
^ Are you a dancer? If so, do guys know that you are a trans-woman?

Again, my personal opinion is that trans-women should be honest about themselves. I have no problem with trans-women being in the SCs, as long as they are honest.

But, if there is not adequate and honest disclosure, then I will stop going to that SC.

Its nothing against trans-women. But, lap dances are a very personal and intimate service/entertainment and I have a right to make a decision about who provides these services to me and to be very discriminating, based on my personal preferences.

Do you tell complete strangers about your medical history? Recent studies have show that it is in fact a medical issue, and that the brain is intersexed even prior to hormone therapy. I certainly don't feel as though I am being deceitful in finally fixing a biological issue.

What you stated in this post is not what I have an issue with however. Things like "all transsexuals like anal sex" (some aren't even interested in men at all such as myself) among the numerous other things in this thread are what bother me. It's not acceptable to call a transperson "him" or refer put the word "wife" in quotes as if it's somehow invalidated based on a person's birth sex. It isn't.

Also, people claiming they can "always tell" when someone is trans...how exactly do you account for all of the people you've missed? I won't even delve into sexual reassignment surgery and common misconceptions (yes, we can get wet, and yes it does have the same aroma).

For the record, I don't dance, and came here because I am interested in webcam modeling. I've learned a lot from that section, and stumbled into this section because I am incredibly interested in getting different perspectives from the girls/customers. If any of my post came across as rude, I don't intend it to be. Text has its flaws :)

jack0177057
02-07-2011, 10:02 PM
Do you tell complete strangers about your medical history?

Obviously, this type of medical history is unlike any other medical history - it is controversial and stirs strong emotions in people. I think adequate disclosure should be given.

Also, I'm sure there is a market for attractive trans-women, so honesty should not translate into no business. A few years ago, I was listening to a radio station programs (mainstream local station) and, in between music tracks, they were interviewing a trans-woman, who was looking for guys to date. She was described as being very attractive. A lot of guys called in, saying they were interested and curious about trans-women.

charlottenh
02-07-2011, 10:16 PM
Obviously, this type of medical history is unlike any other medical history - it is controversial and stirs strong emotions in people. I think adequate disclosure should be given.

Also, I'm sure there is a market for attractive trans-women, so honesty should not translate into no business. A few years ago, I was listening to a radio station programs (mainstream local station) and, in between music tracks, they were interviewing a trans-woman, who was looking for guys to date. She was described as being very attractive. A lot of guys called in, saying they were interested and curious about trans-women.

There is a huge market in trans-women in the adult industry (camming included). While I understand your position, and certainly want to agree on some level, disclosing trans status is often life-threatening.

It's also not unlike any other medical history in that intersexed people are treated all the time for this sort of thing. The rate of intersex people strictly speaking on a statistical level (this is not totally applicable to what we are discussing, but bears mentioning as variation among intersexed conditions exist) is estimated to be 1 in 100 births.

Personal feelings aside, I don't think it's fair to ask someone to jeopardize their life because you may have an issue with their largely irrelevant past.

zombee
02-08-2011, 12:16 AM
Obviously, this type of medical history is unlike any other medical history - it is controversial and stirs strong emotions in people. I think adequate disclosure should be given.

It seems to me there are several things in a girl's past, some medical and some not, that might make a customer object to spending money on her even though they are not factors that affect how much he would enjoy his time with her. Getting an abortion or being previously convicted of a violent crime come to mind, as they both are controversial and/or stir strong emotion in people. I am sure you would not expect a girl to disclose things like these as part of her hustle. What is the difference?

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 09:57 AM
Personal feelings aside, I don't think it's fair to ask someone to jeopardize their life because you may have an issue with their largely irrelevant past.

Granted, I wouldn't want anyone's life to be jeopardized.

I could be wrong, but I suspect its lack of disclosure which causes outbursts of violence. I would expect that, in most SC, no one will be outraged that one or more of the dancers is a trans-woman, as long as she's honest about it. I would expect that any resentment or hate will be the result of lack of disclosure - for example, some guy develops a crush on a trans-woman dancer, becomes her regular, spends lots of money on her, buys her gifts, gets extras, etc...... and later, he discovers she was born a man. He feels humiliated, ashamed, disgusted and defrauded - whether or not his feelings are justified or homophobic, they are REAL feelings, REAL emotions with REAL consequences.

My point is this - I'm a fairly liberal and open-minded guy (though my personal preferences tend to be conservative). I wouldn't mind there being identifiable trans-women in SCs and would even be curious to watch them, though I highly doubt I'd ever buy a LD from them. The only thing that would cause me to have any sort of prejudice against a trans-women would be her lack of disclosure.

One of the greatest fears of most contemporary men - is to have sex with, date, and/or marry a woman,... and later discover that she was born a man. Maybe is homophobic, "ignorant" and unfair, but its the reality -- and nothing is more "ignorant" than to ignore reality.

From Tucker Max's book, I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell -

[WARNING TO ALL GUYS: You might want to stop reading here. The ensuing conversation I am about to recount prevented me from sleeping for a full two days, and has permanently and irreversibly scarred me. Save your psyche while you still can. Females have nothing to fear.]

At one point during a lull in the conversation, a random gay guy got involved in our conversation, and figured out that I was straight and they were trying to get me to have a homosexual experience. He dropped possibly the biggest, most disturbing conversation bomb EVER DROPPED ON ANYONE EVER:

Him "I bet you've already slept with a man."

Tucker "Alright, come on man--I invented Tucker Max Drunk, but not even Tucker Max Drunk makes you switch teams."

Him "How many women have you been with?"

Tucker "I don't know, about [number]."

Him "Oh yeah, I bet you've ****ed a man."

Tucker [Getting obviously frustrated] "How??"

Him "I have three words for you: Post Op Transsexual."

It took three seconds for the full meaning and significance of that statement to filter through my drunken brain. Then came the first stage of loss: Denial.

Tucker "What? Get the **** out of here. I've never ****ed one of those."

Him "You wouldn't know."

Tucker "Man, give me some credit."

Him "Have you ever slept with a woman who told you she couldn't naturally lubricate, that she had to use KY?"

Oh no.

Tucker "Well...yeah...two, actually."

Him "Uh-huh."

Tucker "No. No way. Stacey was one, I went to college with her, she was definitely a woman. Everything about her was woman. And she was like 17 when we ****ed. You can't be post-op that young."

Him "Probably not. What about the other one?"

Please no…

Tucker "Uhhh, I met her in Miami..."

Him "What did she do?"

Tucker "She was a stripper."

Him "Did she have fake tits?"

Tucker "Yes."

This isn’t happening. He is ****ing with me.

Tucker "No, man, she was not a ****ing man. She didn't have an Adams apple."

Him "That is a two hour outpatient surgery. Easily done. Cheap too."

Tucker "But it was...she had a pussy. IT FELT LIKE A PUSSY."

Him "Surgery is amazing these days. She probably even had a clit.”

WHAT THE ****??


It seems to me there are several things in a girl's past, some medical and some not, that might make a customer object to spending money on her even though they are not factors that affect how much he would enjoy his time with her. Getting an abortion or being previously convicted of a violent crime come to mind, as they both are controversial and/or stir strong emotion in people. I am sure you would not expect a girl to disclose things like these as part of her hustle. What is the difference?

Unless the guy is ultra-conservative, ultra-religious, or high profile and/or running for an elected office, most guys can get over stuff that their wife or GF did in the past (assuming no life-threatening STDs),... but the one thing that hardly any man will be able to get over (unless they already knew and accepted it) is the discovery that his GF or wife was born a man. Even "liberal" and "enlightened" men will regard this as deception and betrayal of the highest magnitude.

With regards to the dancer I choose to buy LD from - she doesn't care about my past and I don't care about hers. I choose her because she represents a female ideal of beauty and eroticism - she is my sex goddess for an hour. Her dance is very intimate and erotic - like having sex with our clothes on. She will rub her breasts on my face, grind on me, etc.... and set my passion on fire for her. If I learn later that she was born a man, this will be, to say the least, very disappointing and upsetting.

charlottenh
02-08-2011, 11:17 AM
Granted, I wouldn't want anyone's life to be jeopardized.

I could be wrong, but I suspect its lack of disclosure which causes outbursts of violence. I would expect that, in most SC, no one will be outraged that one or more of the dancers is a trans-woman, as long as she's honest about it. I would expect that any resentment or hate will be the result of lack of disclosure - for example, some guy develops a crush on a trans-woman dancer, becomes her regular, spends lots of money on her, buys her gifts, gets extras, etc...... and later, he discovers she was born a man. He feels humiliated, ashamed, disgusted and defrauded - whether or not his feelings are justified or homophobic, they are REAL feelings, REAL emotions with REAL consequences.

My point is this - I'm a fairly liberal and open-minded guy (though my personal preferences tend to be conservative). I wouldn't mind there being identifiable trans-women in SCs and would even be curious to watch them, though I highly doubt I'd ever buy a LD from them. The only thing that would cause me to have any sort of prejudice against a trans-women would be her lack of disclosure.

One of the greatest fears of most contemporary men - is to have sex with, date, and/or marry a woman,... and later discover that she was born a man. Maybe is homophobic, "ignorant" and unfair, but its the reality -- and nothing is more "ignorant" than to ignore reality.


Being honest with a significant other is a completely separate issue than being honest with a random person at a strip club. The SC is a fantasy environment, and the reality of both the patrons and the girls that work there is usually far less attractive than what is presented. Not only does disclosure present a very real danger, but no transsexual I know wants to be known as such, and this sort of news travel fast. It's very possible that such information would come to light in their everyday lives, and hinder their ability to live seamlessly as female. That's something that once taken away, cannot be reacquired without a change in location.

Personal sexual relationships are a completely different matter. I absolutely agree that if someone is going to enter into such an arrangement that they disclose prior to intimacy. I don't think telling person long before that step is needed.

For example, I date women exclusively, and until they get to know me as a person, I don't tell them, because it tends to color their opinion of me prior to them getting to know me as an individual. If I tell them after they've developed an interest, but before we've become sexual, it becomes much more of a non-issue. In my experience, 95% of the women I tell have no issue with it, and are usually into it (which came as a surprise to me). The same is true for most men I tell in an effort to get them to stop pursuing me. It only makes the pursuit 10 times worse.

On getting over news about a wife or GFs past, I'd again say that their is a huge difference between personal sexual relationships and the SC. I see very little similarity between the two, and I don't think one is relevant in a discussion about the other. One is a service, and the other is something totally different.

A common misconception is that lack of disclosure is the main cause for violence. While this certainly does happen, more often than not the person knew about the tran-woman's past, but only reacted violently AFTER they had sex fearing that they somehow made them gay. Another common situation is that the person is more than okay with sleeping with a TS, but only takes an issue with it when their friends find out, and then in an effort to protect their manhood, brutally murder the girl. These people often use the "trans panic" defense, and get away with brutally stabbing and dismembering the victim with 2 years in prison. It's appalling.

One more thing I'd like to add is that separating trans-women (who have a very real biological issue) and cis-gendered women with the term "real" is rather offensive and incorrect in it's application. Furthermore, nobody is "born a man" as that denotes a mature male body and mind, which is an impossibility for someone who is TS.

Lilian
02-08-2011, 11:28 AM
Yeah - just to give my two sense as someone who's not trans, it's no more a customer's business how a girl's genitals were shaped when she was born than it is for him to know where she lives or grew up. Transpeople are more likely to be assaulted or murdered than any other part of the population. Factor in how sex work is a career with risks we always have to negotiate and - well, I'm sorry getting a dance from a transwoman would bother you, but between a customer maybe feeling 'deceived' (which is...showing some prejudice, I have to say) and a woman having to look after her safety, the latter is a lot more important.

lemiwinks31
02-08-2011, 11:29 AM
I think my distinction on whether or not you should disclose would be if you were pre-op or post op. Because while a pre-op(sorry dont know the preferred term) considers herself a woman, if she still has a penis, her customer probably doesnt.

But in reality, its not a huge deal because you arent doing anything in a strip club other than getting a lap dance...............right?....so, no harm no foul.........

And if you are doing something that you shouldnt be doing, its a risk you take having sexual relations with strangers in any setting......

I think i just changed my mind during this post.

sananeko
02-08-2011, 11:46 AM
Skimming thru this.. I say the easiest way to not have a problem with this to not ask for extras in a strip club.. Go outside and find a girl (maybe) at a bar.

I wouldn't believe in what other girls say about other girls.. They do whatever they can to get the money.. And you stop seeing a girl just cause she says she use to be a he.. Well guess who wins and has a better chance at getting your money.

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 11:57 AM
The SC is a fantasy environment

The fantasy element is that the dancer LOVES dancing for ME - yes that part is 100% fantasy, I accept that.

But, the one thing that is supposed to be real is that she is a "real" woman - which I (and most heterosexual males) define as being born with female genitalia. I'm sorry if that use of "real" is offensive, I'm only using it to make my point - replace it with a less offensive term (authentic, original, natural, by-birth?)

The point is that, while I respect your opinion that you are a "real" woman, most people do not consider a trans-woman to be the same as a "real" (authentic, original, natural, etc.) woman. In some cases, a trans-woman may not appeal to certain men, in other cases, a trans-woman might be more appealing - as your personal experience suggests. The point is that MOST people do treat them VERY differently. If I ever got curios about it and wanted to experiment with a trans-woman, that should be my choice to make. I don't appreciate someone else making that choice for me by concealing the truth from me. (And arguing about the subjective nature of "truth" - is no consolation.)

How do you feel about the opposite situation - Lets say a woman who was born with female genitalia (i.e., a natural woman; not a trans-woman) markets herself as a post-op trans-woman to men with a trans-woman fetish. She is very hot and banks on this, and takes business away from real trans-women. Is that not a misrepresentation?

charlottenh
02-08-2011, 12:10 PM
The fantasy element is that the dancer LOVES dancing for ME - yes that part is 100% fantasy, I accept that.

But, the one thing that is supposed to be real is that she is a "real" woman - which I (and most heterosexual males) define as being born with female genitalia. I'm sorry if that use of "real" is offensive, I'm only using it to make my point - replace it with a less offensive term (authentic, original, natural, by-birth?)

The point is that, while I respect your opinion that you are a "real" woman, most people do not consider a trans-woman to be the same as a "real" (authentic, original, natural, etc.) woman. In some cases, a trans-woman may not appeal to certain men, in other cases, a trans-woman might be more appealing - as your personal experience suggests. The point is that MOST people do treat them VERY differently. If I ever got curios about it and wanted to experiment with a trans-woman, that should be my choice to make. I don't appreciate someone else making that choice for me by concealing the truth from me. (And arguing about the subjective nature of "truth" - is no consolation.)

How do you feel about the opposite situation - Lets say a woman who was born with female genitalia (i.e., a natural woman; not a trans-woman) markets herself as a post-op trans-woman to men with a trans-woman fetish. She is very hot and banks on this, and takes business away from real trans-women. Is that not a misrepresentation?

It's not simple opinion, as we have the biological evidence that shows that being trans is a developmental issue that arises in-utero. It doesn't matter what "most people think", and frankly I find that to be much less the case as time goes on. Also, people who I've told who met me after my transition tell me all the time that it is impossible to see me as male, so much so that they ask me things about PMS and I have to remind them about my situation. There is also a huge danger in speaking for "most people" as there is no way to verify a statement like that.

If you get a dance from someone and enjoyed the experience, then as far as I am concerned, information you may find out after the fact is not relevant.

I would have no issue with a girl marketing herself as a trans-person. It's business, and I don't take it personally.

charlie61
02-08-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm personally offended by the rampant use of "tranny" in this thread as an identifier for trans people, but since a legitimate discussion has emerged from this hot mess of a thread, I'll leave it for now.

My comments on the topic: There isn't much, when all is said and done, that makes someone a man or a woman. Studies consistently show a continuum of all qualities that are merely human, and not either male or female. Pretty much the only thing that generally qualifies someone as female or male is a person's chromosomes (even hormones vary too widely to make someone either m or f). And it's ridiculous to claim that you're attracted to someone's chromosomes.

So what it comes down to is that most of us are attracted to how someone presents their gender. Heterosexual males are attracted to people with feminine presentations, etc. So for people to be horrendously offended to have received sexual favors in a strip club from people who have extremely feminine presentations, people who happened to be born with male chromosomes, IMHO, is absolutely ridiculous.

charlie61
02-08-2011, 12:24 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how widely acceptable it is in most cultures to be so openly homophobic.

Seriously, that was so last millenium.

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 12:51 PM
^ Define "homophobic"... I think lesbians are awesome - the lesbian pic thread is super hot! Also, I have nothing against homosexual men - more power to them (less competition - which is great because many gay guys are in much better shape than straight guys). As mentioned before, I have nothing against trans-women as long as I don't get a lap dance from one believing she was a natural-born woman.

Does the fact, and only this fact - that I love vagina - natural-born vagina - make me a homophobe? I like to "eat" vagina, and the idea of mistakenly eating a... surgically-engineered vagina from penis material... is most unpleasant to me. Does that make me a homophobe? There may be others to whom that appeals to very much - more power to them.

In addition to personal preferences, which are... well, personal, and not necessarily logical,... the issue might be one of identity (or self-branding)... A so-called homophobe male wants to preserve a certain identity - i.e., a virile masculine man, with no "sissy" attributes - which is what most women prefer (even though they might say otherwise). You cannot downplay the importance of identity and branding. The "tough and masculine" identity/brand/label might be essential for social interaction and even for survival, depending on a person's set of circumstances and psyche. You throw in the fact that his ATF of many years was born a male - and this is a bomb on that person's psyche, self-esteem, reputation and social survival.

We're not all enlightened - neither pschologically, nor socially - nor do we live in an enlightened society. To some extent, our identity and branding is a self-preservation survival adaption mechanism. You mess with it, and unexpected adverse consequences result.

I guess in about 100 years, people will be able to change genders like people today change clothes. Gender, chromosones and body shapes will become an "accessory". What will be our true "identities" and "brands" then? Our emotions (including sexual orientation, attraction and "love") will be readily programmable. Underneath this, what else is left?

lemiwinks31
02-08-2011, 01:15 PM
There is also a huge danger in speaking for "most people"


and even moreso when that person is Jack:)

safado
02-08-2011, 03:54 PM
because while a pre-op(sorry dont know the preferred term) considers herself a woman, if she still has a penis, her customer probably doesnt.


-deleted by mod-

charlottenh
02-08-2011, 04:13 PM
Really offensive. The correct term is pre op.

Lilian
02-08-2011, 04:39 PM
Does the fact, and only this fact - that I love vagina - natural-born vagina - make me a homophobe? I like to "eat" vagina, and the idea of mistakenly eating a... surgically-engineered vagina from penis material... is most unpleasant to me. Does that make me a homophobe? There may be others to whom that appeals to very much - more power to them.

In addition to personal preferences, which are... well, personal, and not necessarily logical,... the issue might be one of identity (or self-branding)... A so-called homophobe male wants to preserve a certain identity - i.e., a virile masculine man, with no "sissy" attributes - which is what most women prefer (even though they might say otherwise). You cannot downplay the importance of identity and branding. The "tough and masculine" identity/brand/label might be essential for social interaction and even for survival, depending on a person's set of circumstances and psyche. You throw in the fact that his ATF of many years was born a male - and this is a bomb on that person's psyche, self-esteem, reputation and social survival.

We're not all enlightened - neither pschologically, nor socially - nor do we live in an enlightened society. To some extent, our identity and branding is a self-preservation survival adaption mechanism. You mess with it, and unexpected adverse consequences result.

Wooooow. Look, this obviously isn't getting through to you, but a big virile heterosexual guy is privileged with not having to worry about being systematically abused by society. You're right that society isn't generally enlightened, but that's exactly why transpeople have to be careful about who they disclose information to, and why any dancer with even a shred of human decency wouldn't go blabbing personal information to customers or anyone else.

But frankly it's clear that other people's personal safety, privacy, and human rights matter less to you than whether or not you might have been given a dance by or had sex with someone you thought was born with a set of chromosomes she wasn't. Considering the fact that cisgendered (your idea of a 'real woman', generally) women can have Y chromosomes or might have been born with vaginas that either required surgery or were surgically altered later, your distaste for the idea you might have, omg, had anything that was once composed of the same tissue as a penis near you doesn't make any sense. Because it's based on prejudice, which is inherently illogical.

Charlotte (I'm guessing that's your name based on your username), I just want to say I'm sorry that you have to cope with assholes like this on the web and IRL. It's not fair or right in any way, and you seem like a pretty awesome and patient woman; personally, I'm proud to share a gender with you.

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 05:35 PM
But frankly it's clear that other people's personal safety, privacy, and human rights matter less to you

That's not fair, I did say - "Granted, I wouldn't want anyone's life to be jeopardized." If her life is really threatened, then, in that case, I would agree that she should stay quiet... I don't want anyone to die. But, that would seem like the only exception to being honest.

Having said that, my feeling is that any animosity and resentment towards trans-women will be the result of "deception", not honesty. I don't know of any one that wants to go around hurting trans-women, just because they are trans-women - but on the other hand - I can easily imagine many men becoming extremely upset to lean that their ATF turns out to be a trans-women.

If charlottenh lives in a place is that so violent and intolerant that her honesty (i.e., the truth ) would place her life in peril, the best thing for her to do is move somewhere else - its an aweful place to live.

Dirty Ernie
02-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I don't know of any one that wants to go around hurting trans-women, just because they are trans-women


You must live in a part of Texas I've never heard of.

hockeybobby
02-08-2011, 06:42 PM
^^^hahaha

bugsy
02-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Chances are you haven't danced with a post-op trans woman. Cool your jets. And if you have, well then chances are even higher that you'll never, ever know, so go on with life as if you haven't.

That said, keep this thread in mind next time you're scouting for extras. Think really, really hard about the woman who agrees to them, too :)

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 07:07 PM
You must live in a part of Texas I've never heard of.

I've lived in Houston and Dallas - both of which have a sizeable GLBT community. Our Houston Mayor is a lesbian (and lesbian activist). When I lived in Dallas, one of the council members and mayor pro term was openly gay (and gay activist). I'm not suggesting we're San Francisco, but, as far as I know, neither of them has had death threats.

Mr Hyde
02-08-2011, 07:09 PM
^ I've never met a t-girl, but I'm guessing that only one out of 100 looks, talks and feels anything like a "real" woman. I have seen crossdressers, though, and they don't look anything like real women. I don't think those customers were fooled, its more likely that they knew or suspected, and wanted a "t-girl".

I dated a girl a long time ago that was dumped by her BF (before we hooked up) for a t-girl. She learned during the breakup about a subculture of t-girls and guys that were into them. It was shocking to me that she (super hot girl and former stripper) was dumped for a t-girl, but that's what happened. Some guys are into t-girls.

Besides, why would a club hire "t-girls", unless customers wanted them? If customers would be repulsed and scared away from the club, this would be business suicide. On the other hand, if there was an untapped market for t-girls, only then, would hiring t-girls dancers make sense.

I've met a number of them, and been to a number of drag shows. To be perfectly honest, if some of the, uh.....girls, in these shows were in a regular bar, and I hit on them, I wouldn't know the difference until it came time to get below the belt.

That doesn't mean I would want such an encounter, just saying that you'd be surprised at how attractive they can be. A club owner could be fooled.

charlottenh
02-08-2011, 07:19 PM
I've lived in Houston and Dallas - both of which have a sizeable GLBT community. Our Houston Mayor is a lesbian (and lesbian activist). When I lived in Dallas, one of the council members and mayor pro term was openly gay (and gay activist). I'm not suggesting we're San Francisco, but, as far as I know, neither of them has had death threats.

The odds of being murdered as a transsexual are 1 in 12. Being open about it is literally putting your life in danger. I've had to say goodbye to a few friends, and let me tell you, it's always over senseless crap.

bugsy
02-08-2011, 07:30 PM
The odds of being murdered as a transsexual are 1 in 12. Being open about it is literally putting your life in danger. I've had to say goodbye to a few friends, and let me tell you, it's always over senseless crap.

I had no idea the numbers were that high:O. Thank you for enlightening us all

jack0177057
02-08-2011, 08:42 PM
The odds of being murdered as a transsexual are 1 in 12. Being open about it is literally putting your life in danger. I've had to say goodbye to a few friends, and let me tell you, it's always over senseless crap.

I'm sorry to hear that. When you say "senseless crap", do you mean that bigots pick fights using trivial senseless crap as a pretext? Does this happen in dangerous "ghetto" neighborhoods, or all over the place?

Where do you live? Why not move to a more GLBT-friendly city, like San Francisco, NYC - or even Houston or Dallas?

charlottenh
02-08-2011, 08:54 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. When you say "senseless crap", do you mean that bigots pick fights using trivial senseless crap as a pretext? Does this happen in dangerous "ghetto" neighborhoods, or all over the place?

Where do you live? Why not move to a more GLBT-friendly city, like San Francisco, NYC - or even Houston or Dallas?

I don't live in a bad area for that sort of thing, but neither did my friends. Google "TDOR". I live in New Hampshire, which is a great place to be as I'm very close to Boston, but I don't feel as though people should have to segregate themselves to be safe.

It happens all over the place for any number of reasons, and more often than not, it's for nothing but existing. I have however considered moving to NYC or SF as I have friends in both places.

charlie61
02-09-2011, 08:17 PM
::searches for an excuse to close this thread so I won't have to cringe every time someone says something ignorant and / or offensive::

charlie61
02-09-2011, 08:21 PM
It astounds me that anyone would pick on this group of people. I mean feel free to have your own opinions--they are yours to have--but why do people find it acceptable to criticize this specific group of minorities?

This is the race issue of the new millineum. In 50 years, after all of the old farts and bigots have died off, people will be HORRIFIED to hear that this group of people was once treated so cruelly. I mean christ, they're people. They're just people.