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Kellydancer
11-03-2010, 07:40 PM
True just gets annoying when (my personal experience) your loser BF always makes you pay for everything and then blows his money on booze and video games and other things sorry Im a bit old fashioned I like the GUY paying for dates but hes not living with me while we are dating or paying my rent I can take care of myself that way.

I actually went out with a few guys like that. A couple of them asked me out but then expected me to pay for the first date. I paid for myself only and they never got a second date. A few other guys I was dating then they started to pay for everything. I dumped them after that. Now when I go on a date I watch to see what the guy does. I offer to pay but if he expects me to pay (I'm talking if he asked me out) then I assume he's probably a loser.

threlayer
11-05-2010, 07:18 PM
True just gets annoying when (my personal experience) your loser BF always makes you pay for everything and then blows his money on booze and video games and other things sorry Im a bit old fashioned I like the GUY paying for dates but hes not living with me while we are dating or paying my rent I can take care of myself that way.

Agreed. Why spend time with an abuser like that?

threlayer
11-05-2010, 07:22 PM
Well, I have...

And one thing I learned was that whatever works for you works for you. My ex planned on taking two years off from work when our daughter was born...after six months she was climbing the walls and went back to work part time. Within 9 months she was back full time. The money was helpful of course but my ex being happy and adjusted made her a better and more patient mom when my daughter was small. It also made us all try very hard to make the most of our time spent together.

I'm thinking that the first few years are when most brain and behavior development occurs. Seems to me that mothers (and fathers) have more at stake in the development period than and paid babysitter does. If it were me (and it isn't), I'd do my best to foster the best development that I could muster up. Yes, it's a very intense activity and short breaks for the adults need to be taken frequently.

yoda57us
11-06-2010, 12:05 PM
I'm thinking that the first few years are when most brain and behavior development occurs. Seems to me that mothers (and fathers) have more at stake in the development period than and paid babysitter does. If it were me (and it isn't), I'd do my best to foster the best development that I could muster up. Yes, it's a very intense activity and short breaks for the adults need to be taken frequently.


Who said anything about a paid babysitter? You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions on a topic about which you clearly know nothing. It's not about "short breaks for adults" Being a happy and complete person makes you a better parent. It's about quality of time not quantity of time.

Come back and talk about it when you actually have a kid and raise her to be a responsible, hard working, intelligent and independent adult.

rickdugan
11-06-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm thinking that the first few years are when most brain and behavior development occurs. Seems to me that mothers (and fathers) have more at stake in the development period than and paid babysitter does. If it were me (and it isn't), I'd do my best to foster the best development that I could muster up. Yes, it's a very intense activity and short breaks for the adults need to be taken frequently.


Who said anything about a paid babysitter? You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions on a topic about which you clearly know nothing. It's not about "short breaks for adults" Being a happy and complete person makes you a better parent. It's about quality of time not quantity of time.

Come back and talk about it when you actually have a kid and raise her to be a responsible, hard working, intelligent and independent adult.

I have two children and I agree with threlayer's general comment. IMO daycare is no substitute for what a mother (or father) can do for a child in the early days. Now this does not mean that a child put in daycare is going to turn out to be anything other than healthy or happy, but the development and security already displayed by my older child, who is just about in kindergarden, makes me believe that we made the right decision.

IDK, but I struggle to see how a person who sees her kid only a few waking hours a day can be a better parent than one that devotes her day to her child's development and care. I have never been a big believer in the theory that a baby or young child really cares if his/her mother feels fulfilled, just about about where Mommy is when he/she scrapes a knee, is scared or lonely, etc.

Now there are a lot of options besides daycare, including family members, but I see a lot of young children shuffled off to baby storage during the day and cannot help to be saddened by it. Now for many there are no other options, but for parents that can do it I believe that there is no substitute for hands-on child rearing.

Just my :twocents:

Kellydancer
11-06-2010, 12:57 PM
There is a difference between paid childcare and a family member. I have discussed this topic with the guy I hope I end up with and we are on the same page. We've discussed that in the event we have children we will have one of the grandparents watch the baby during the day. We both come from intellectual families (both of us have high IQs) so this will give any children we have an extra advantage. However, for me to have to be the one to give up my career would make me extremely resentful. The fact is I have worked hard for my career and I hate being at home. I'm currently doing freelance work while looking for another fulltime job but being at home now is driving me nuts, having a crying child would make it worse. Plus, if I do marry the guy I want he's far less career orientated (ie has less career potential) and more tolerant than I would be. I've actually told him if we do have kids I would be fine with him staying at home, but he doesn't like that because of the job unstability in this society.

Also interesting to note that in my case if I don't end up with him I will either not have kids or adopt as a single woman. Most guys I meet don't feel like he does, most guys I've come around think women are the ones who should give up their careers. That's why I never considered having kids with any of them. His mom was a working woman and he feels all women should work.

threlayer
11-06-2010, 02:05 PM
Who said anything about a paid babysitter? You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions on a topic about which you clearly know nothing. It's not about "short breaks for adults" Being a happy and complete person makes you a better parent. It's about quality of time not quantity of time.

Come back and talk about it when you actually have a kid and raise her to be a responsible, hard working, intelligent and independent adult.

Debating objectively is what I try to do. Parents, when both are working, in the large majority of cases, have to hire someone to take care of their infants and toddlers. The days of an extended family doing such duties are largely gone.

I am not discussing your family life, nor should you be discussing mine. Thank you .

nelly33
11-06-2010, 02:37 PM
Come back and talk about it when you actually have a kid and raise her to be a responsible, hard working, intelligent and independent adult.

This is a blatant appeal to accomplishment fallacy. Having a child that turns into a success does not make you an expert or even mean that you had anything to do with it. If it reflected directly on the parents, than following that logic all abused or foster kids would be in shambles... not the case. Also, not having raised children does not mean your ideas are invalid.
Examples of "appeals to accomplishment" taken from various websites online...

I don't see those chickenhawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28politics%29) and keyboard warriors (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Keyboard_warrior&action=edit&redlink=1) going out to the front lines in a war effort that they support, but their opinions about why our soldiers must stay in harm's way continues to be given undue weight in the media. Why?
Why can't black people act more like Asians and Middle Easterners who come to this country? They come with very little in their possession but they're educated, rich and powerful; they don't complain, kill each other and subsist off welfare like black people.
Get back to me when you've built up a multi-billion dollar empire of your own. Until then, shut up.

Kellydancer
11-06-2010, 02:57 PM
This is a blatant appeal to accomplishment fallacy. Having a child that turns into a success does not make you an expert or even mean that you had anything to do with it. If it reflected directly on the parents, than following that logic all abused or foster kids would be in shambles... not the case. Also, not having raised children does not mean your ideas are invalid.
Examples of "appeals to accomplishment" taken from various websites online...

I don't see those and going out to the front lines in a war effort that they support, but their opinions about why our soldiers must stay in harm's way continues to be given undue weight in the media. Why?
Why can't black people act more like Asians and Middle Easterners who come to this country? They come with very little in their possession but they're educated, rich and powerful; they don't complain, kill each other and subsist off welfare like black people.
Get back to me when you've built up a multi-billion dollar empire of your own. Until then, shut up.

What? Actually I know many black people and none are on welfare. Most are college educated and are professionals.

nelly33
11-06-2010, 04:28 PM
I was pointing out how those comparisons DO NOT make sense Kellydancer... It is the whole point of a fallacy. The examples stated follow the same train of thought as Yoda's, at least in my humble opinion

rickdugan
11-06-2010, 05:05 PM
...Also interesting to note that in my case if I don't end up with him I will either not have kids or adopt as a single woman. Most guys I meet don't feel like he does, most guys I've come around think women are the ones who should give up their careers. That's why I never considered having kids with any of them. His mom was a working woman and he feels all women should work.

Like I said before, there is no shame in deciding not to have kids. Some people just aren't emotionally suited for it.

Kellydancer
11-06-2010, 05:07 PM
I was pointing out how those comparisons DO NOT make sense Kellydancer... I was that is the whole point of a fallacy. The examples stated follow the same train of thought as Yoda's, at least in my humble opinion

Ah ok, just wondering.

Kellydancer
11-06-2010, 05:09 PM
Like I said before, there is no shame in deciding not to have kids. Some people just aren't emotionally suited for it.

You're right. I will consider adopting though but who knows. Right now I'm not in the right place financially or emotionally to be a mom now anyway. I might have kids or might not only God (or whatever higher power people believe) knows.

yoda57us
11-06-2010, 08:56 PM
I am not discussing your family life, nor should you be discussing mine. Thank you .

Dude, I'm not discussing your family life or mine. I telling you that, in my opinion, until you raise kids you have no business telling anyone else how to do it. Theory goes out the window when one is faced with real life.

yoda57us
11-06-2010, 09:04 PM
This is a blatant appeal to accomplishment fallacy. Having a child that turns into a success does not make you an expert

Never said that it did. Of course, never having had a child certainly doesn't make you an expert either...


or even mean that you had anything to do with it.


Sure it does. No child is raised in a vacuum. Genes are what they are. Many inherited traits have everything to do with how a child's mind develops.

The nature vs. nurture argument is a myth. It's both!

yoda57us
11-06-2010, 09:13 PM
I was pointing out how those comparisons DO NOT make sense Kellydancer... It is the whole point of a fallacy. The examples stated follow the same train of thought as Yoda's, at least in my humble opinion

You are way off base here. My comments are based directly on my experiences as a child raised by a single parent, a parent of a now grown child and a relative or friend of many other parents and children. If you think my comments are simply about a parent trying to take credit for something then I dare say you have no freaking clue about what actually motivates a good parent to be a good parent. Trust me, it's much easier to be a crappy parent. I've seen the end results of what can happen when a parent or parents decide not to fully engage themselves in the obligation of responsible and active child rearing.

It takes a lot of sweat, tears, sacrifice and love to raise a child. Anyone who has never actually done it is, of course, entitled to an opinion...but I don't have much use for it...

nelly33
11-06-2010, 09:42 PM
Yoda, you are misinterpreting me again. I agree with you that nature v nurture is a pointless agreement... I think we can both agree that the answer to the argument lies somewhere in the middle. I am not attempting to attack you as a person or as a father; it seems you are trying to discredit my argument by making it look like I am attacking you personally.
My point is that one does not have to be a father to make observations on children or parents. For you to insist otherwise seems way off base to me. "Theory goes out the window when one is faced with real life" is what you said a few posts ago...then how do you comment on anything you have not experienced? How do you comment on the president, having never been a president? How do you talk about Iraq if you have never served there? How do you give advice to anyone having never been in their exact position?
And saying that your comments are based on your experiences makes them valid in your case certainly, but just because your child is successful and you were a good parent does not make it a universal truth.

sadbuttrue
11-06-2010, 10:55 PM
Ahhhh... armchair parents (takes out pop corn and pops open a beer). Gotta love it. They're the same ones that have ideas about how to raise children based on logical assumption, their experience as a child with their parents, child psychologist opinions and other nonsense. If you do x and y and z consistently you have a perfect product just like an assembly line.

The truth is, not one of your kids turns out the way you expect. As my ex-boss once said, "before I was a parent I had two theories on parenting (he didn't say what they were) and now I AM a parent and I have no theories!"

I mean, you may be lucky and have those magic compliant kids who do everything the parent says and if you correct them, they say "... yes dad" and realizes the great wisdom of someone who has lived life longer. HA! And then you find out fifteen years later all the shit that they've done that you never knew about. :eye-poppi

Sad

yoda57us
11-07-2010, 03:46 AM
Yoda, you are misinterpreting me again.
No, I'm just not agreeing with you. There is a difference. One of the things that constantly amazes me about some folks who choose to debate a point on the internet is their insistence that they are being misunderstood when in fact they are just being disagreed with.

I'm not taking it personally. How could I? We don't know each other.

yoda57us
11-07-2010, 03:53 AM
The truth is, not one of your kids turns out the way you expect. As my ex-boss once said, "before I was a parent I had two theories on parenting (he didn't say what they were) and now I AM a parent and I have no theories!"


Bingo! The reality is that being a parent of a child can't be isolated from being a human being in society and having to deal with all of the realities that every day life throws at you. Priorities shift from day to day and what you should do is often over-ruled by what you must do. Striking the proper balance is the key and that is determined by instinct and the situation at hand. Not by something you read in a book.

nelly33
11-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Ahhhh... armchair parents (takes out pop corn and pops open a beer). Gotta love it. They're the same ones that have ideas about how to raise children based on logical assumption, their experience as a child with their parents, child psychologist opinions and other nonsense. If you do x and y and z consistently you have a perfect product just like an assembly line.
I don't think I ever said anything about there being a perfect way to raise a child. While I can accept that Yoda just doesn't agree with my point of view, it looks like you have invented one for me.
I don't assume that what works for one parent will work for all. Children are different and so are circumstances. To believe in an assembly line approach is clearly ignorant, and I don't see anybody that proposed that.
Although I will grant you that I do put stock into child psychologist opinions... I fail to see how somebody could not.

yoda57us
11-07-2010, 01:10 PM
Although I will grant you that I do put stock into child psychologist opinions... I fail to see how somebody could not.

LOL, child psychology (like all psychology) is a regurgitation of what we as a society have learned about child rearing. In essence, conclusions are drawn by compiling data. While the conclusions may be entirely valid they are all based on what good parents have already done for centuries. Good parenting works and good parents already know that.

nelly33
11-07-2010, 01:28 PM
that was kind of my point... tons and tons of data on a wide range of subject samples means that child psychologists have a lot of valid information...

yoda57us
11-07-2010, 05:35 PM
that was kind of my point... tons and tons of data on a wide range of subject samples means that child psychologists have a lot of valid information...

I agree with you. My point is that the world, and good parenting, survived and thrived before child psychology existed...

Look, there are people who won't take a dump much less try to raise a child without reading a book about how to do it. That's fine if that's what works for them. My concern is that people have a tendency to spend way too much time reading books and surfing the internet for solutions instead of simply spending time with and nurturing their kids. I was raised in the 60's by a divorced mom. Now, there were no books back in the sixties about how a single mom was supposed to work a full time job, go to college at night and raise two kids but you know what, my mom managed just fine. No books needed. She did it by working her ass off and by finding a way to make every minute with her kids count.

Now, if you have a problem with your child that needs to be diagnosed that's fine, go see a doctor, a shrink or do whatever you have to do to get the kid the help he or she needs. If, on the other hand, you just can't seem to figure out how to simply be a good parent then my thought is that you probably where not ready for parenthood in the first place...

Of course, that's a whole other subject...

threlayer
11-07-2010, 08:42 PM
Dude, I'm not discussing your family life or mine. I telling you that, in my opinion, until you raise kids you have no business telling anyone else how to do it. Theory goes out the window when one is faced with real life.

Mr. Dude, I'm not telling anyone HOW to raise kids. I'm just saying what I think about what kids need, based on my personal experiences and observations, the details of which I'll keep to myself.

If you do not agree with it, fine. Just don't tell me that I am not entitled to my opinion. Look at my siggy.

Kellydancer
11-07-2010, 10:33 PM
I agree with you. My point is that the world, and good parenting, survived and thrived before child psychology existed...

Look, there are people who won't take a dump much less try to raise a child without reading a book about how to do it. That's fine if that's what works for them. My concern is that people have a tendency to spend way too much time reading books and surfing the internet for solutions instead of simply spending time with and nurturing their kids. I was raised in the 60's by a divorced mom. Now, there were no books back in the sixties about how a single mom was supposed to work a full time job, go to college at night and raise two kids but you know what, my mom managed just fine. No books needed. She did it by working her ass off and by finding a way to make every minute with her kids count.

Now, if you have a problem with your child that needs to be diagnosed that's fine, go see a doctor, a shrink or do whatever you have to do to get the kid the help he or she needs. If, on the other hand, you just can't seem to figure out how to simply be a good parent then my thought is that you probably where not ready for parenthood in the first place...

Of course, that's a whole other subject...

Yoda you are so right and you said what applies to everything across the board. That would be that everyone relies on the internet and books to answer questions. If someone tells me I should read some stupid self help book to solve my issues (whatever issue they mean) I will smack them. Too many people rely on the internet and these stupid book to help them and it's scary.

princessjas
11-08-2010, 06:08 AM
Who said anything about a paid babysitter? You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions on a topic about which you clearly know nothing. It's not about "short breaks for adults" Being a happy and complete person makes you a better parent. It's about quality of time not quantity of time.

Come back and talk about it when you actually have a kid and raise her to be a responsible, hard working, intelligent and independent adult.

Ok, I have to say something about this. I lived in NJ for 6ish years and worked with a ton of women and men from NJ/NY. Being southern and sweet meant I was used as a confessional by the majority of them and what I heard does not support this AT ALL.

First off, you can't even go out to eat up there all the kids are such brats. They will run to your table and try to yank the table cloth off and the parents will just sit there and do nothing. If we ate out 4 times a week, it was guaranteed to happen at least once (and these were upscale places, not Applebee's). It was horrible living around that all the time.

Next I'll mention that many of these women (and 2 of the men) confessed that they felt their children behaved this way as well, but because they spent all day with the babysitter or in daycare they felt to guilty to correct the behavior. When I got preggo, everyone really freaked me out with all the horrible stories of bratty behavior and insane guilt and destroyed marriages, I literally thought my life was just OVER and was depressed for the first 4-5 mos due to all their advice. My immediate boss and one of my best friends was always crying over her kids calling their Nanny Mommy sometimes and going to the Nanny instead of her for comfort, she tried to go with the quality over quantity theory, but what ended up happening is her son's slept in their bed and took over so much of their at home life that it destroyed 2 of her marriages.

While I'll agree parents need to be happy to be good parents, in probably 80-90% of the cases of working parents I saw while living up there, it was EPIC failure. The other 20% I'll gladly admit seemed to work out very well. One of the secretaries on the other side of the building had this kinda thing going (but then she worked 9-6 and I think her hubby was an 8-5er, in contrast wtih accountants hours, probably 70hrs a week, like the other women and men I worked with). Maybe it was simply the amount of hours put in by the people in the field I was in, but I dunno, that seemed pretty standard for nearly all the finacially comfortable peeps I met while living in NJ. :-\

rickdugan
11-08-2010, 06:52 AM
^This. I am amazed at the number of little animals running around now, just as I am equally amazed at the horrible work ethic and self centered nature of many young adults today. All of this leads me to believe that the transition from home raised children to a daycare/sitter model has been a failure. How does one instill values in a child when one is not there to do it?

Now idk how my two little girls are ultimately going to turn out, but they are remarkably better behaved than many of the other kids their ages. IMHO this is a direct result of a mother that does not tolerate much nonsense and is with them all day. The older one is bright, has manners and does not become a little animal in social settings.

Like I said before, some people simply have no choice. But for those who do, I think it is a travesty to shuffle a baby into daycare. And for those who say "my child will be happier if I am happier" or "I'm a better parent when I am more fulfilled" or some other such nonsense, I can only say that your child really doesn't give a shit about how fulfilled you feel - only you do, and IMO it is always at the expense of the child.

princessjas
11-08-2010, 08:36 AM
How does one instill values in a child when one is not there to do it?

Now idk how my two little girls are ultimately going to turn out, but they are remarkably better behaved than many of the other kids their ages. IMHO this is a direct result of a mother that does not tolerate much nonsense and is with them all day. The older one is bright, has manners and does not become a little animal in social settings.

Like I said before, some people simply have no choice. But for those who do, I think it is a travesty to shuffle a baby into daycare. And for those who say "my child will be happier if I am happier" or "I'm a better parent when I am more fulfilled" or some other such nonsense, I can only say that your child really doesn't give a shit about how fulfilled you feel - only you do, and IMO it is always at the expense of the child.

I couldn't agree with this more. My kids, even my severly autistic 3 1/2 yr old behave VERY well in social settings. My son just had a playdate at his friends house and he is the ONLY child to ever be allowed to visit their house because he is the only child his friends grandma (who is raising him) thought was well behaved enough to have in her home. Yes, I would have been more fulfilled if I would have continued to work outside the home, but I knew I was doing what was best for my sons and that it was only till they started school and that was all I needed to remind myself of when I started to get to antsy. I don't think anyone should have children if they aren't prepared to do every single thing in their power to ensure their childrens well-being....and yes, I mean, even if they have to sacrifice their own wants for a time being. Too damn many adults behave like selfish adolescents these days.

Kellydancer
11-08-2010, 12:14 PM
I actually think it depends and I don't think it is right blaming working parents for being brats. I will say though that I don't get these parents who work 70+ hours so their kids have the fanciest toys. That to me is the problem. I am a big believer in only working 40 hours or so but this is why I generally chose low powered careers. This is also why I always choose men with the same mentality. I generally avoid doctors and lawyers because of this. Also, I think daycare can be good depending on the situation. In my case my parents are retired so they would be willing to babysit during the day. If I marry the guy I hope his parents are also retired and they would also be willing to babysit. I think grandparents is really the best solution for daycare if one of the parents can't or won't stay at home. Also, I don't think staying at home or working really makes a difference. I've known career parents with good kids and stay at home parents with brats.

rickdugan
11-08-2010, 01:36 PM
^ Kelly, with all due respect I think that you've avoided lawyers and doctors because many of them would expect that their wives take to care of the children, which is something that you have made crystal clear that you just don't want to do. You have also made it clear that you have no interest in nursing your baby should you ever have one, I expect largely for the same reason.

So instead of looking for a guy that can provide for his family, you chase after a head case that can barely keep his own shit straight. This way, you both HAVE to work to make ends meet because, of course, both of you have low powered careers and neither of you could likely cover all of the bills alone.

As princessjas mentioned, raising a child well involves sacrifice and putting one's own interests behind those of the child. My wife has sacrificed a lot in order to be home with her children. Heck, for the first year of each of our two daughters' lives we could never even go out on a date together because nursing babies need to feed frequently and my wife had the food sacks ;) Our big date night each week involved cable tv and some snacks. And traveling for vacations? LOL.

And, with respect to the role of father/breadwinner, despite what you believe about the glorious life of someone working to support a family, it is also a damned difficult job with a lot of pressure attached. I cannot falter, period. While I make very good money and work a lot of hours, it is not out of a sheer love of working, but rather to provide my children with (1) a mother who is there when they need her; and (2) opportunities that I never had as a child.

Many parents today have found ways to rationalize taking easier roads. It is sad to see.

Kellydancer
11-08-2010, 02:33 PM
^ Kelly, with all due respect I think that you've avoided lawyers and doctors because many of them would expect that their wives take to care of the children, which is something that you have made crystal clear that you just don't want to do. You have also made it clear that you have no interest in nursing your baby should you ever have one, I expect largely for the same reason.

So instead of looking for a guy that can provide for his family, you chase after a head case that can barely keep his own shit straight. This way, you both HAVE to work to make ends meet because, of course, both of you have low powered careers and neither of you could likely cover all of the bills alone.

As princessjas mentioned, raising a child well involves sacrifice and putting one's own interests behind those of the child. My wife has sacrificed a lot in order to be home with her children. Heck, for the first year of each of our two daughters' lives we could never even go out on a date together because nursing babies need to feed frequently and my wife had the food sacks ;) Our big date night each week involved cable tv and some snacks. And traveling for vacations? LOL.

And, with respect to the role of father/breadwinner, despite what you believe about the glorious life of someone working to support a family, it is also a damned difficult job with a lot of pressure attached. I cannot falter, period. While I make very good money and work a lot of hours, it is not out of a sheer love of working, but rather to provide my children with (1) a mother who is there when they need her; and (2) opportunities that I never had as a child.

Many parents today have found ways to rationalize taking easier roads. It is sad to see.

I worked hard for my career and see no justification for giving it up to be a stay at home mom. Not my thing at all but I still want a child. I love the idea of being the main breadwinner which is why I went to graduate school. By low powered I don't mean I'll struggle jobwise, just that I really don't want to be a CEO, though I do eventually want to be director of a department. I just don't see the purpose of ANYONE working 70+, including single people. For what? so they can lose their job due to downsizing? No way and then you wasted years you could have been spending with the kids. I have dated teachers and these guys are great because they work fulltime but no 70+ hours.

What I want certainly doesn't apply to everyone, but there are a lot more like me out there than many realize. I am a career person and have always been career orientated. I'll be damned if I would even consider giving it up to stay at home. When guys have mentioned they'd want someone at home I told them then THEY could stay at home and I could be the breadwinner. After all why should I be the one to sacrifice my career when I worked so hard to achieve it?

yoda57us
11-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Mr. Dude, I'm not telling anyone HOW to raise kids. I'm just saying what I think about what kids need, based on my personal experiences and observations, the details of which I'll keep to myself.

If you do not agree with it, fine. Just don't tell me that I am not entitled to my opinion. Look at my siggy.


You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. As I am entitled to disagree with it.

lopaw
11-08-2010, 08:32 PM
I worked hard for my career and see no justification for giving it up to be a stay at home mom. Not my thing at all but I still want a child. I love the idea of being the main breadwinner which is why I went to graduate school. By low powered I don't mean I'll struggle jobwise, just that I really don't want to be a CEO, though I do eventually want to be director of a department. I just don't see the purpose of ANYONE working 70+, including single people. For what? so they can lose their job due to downsizing? No way and then you wasted years you could have been spending with the kids. I have dated teachers and these guys are great because they work fulltime but no 70+ hours.

What I want certainly doesn't apply to everyone, but there are a lot more like me out there than many realize. I am a career person and have always been career orientated. I'll be damned if I would even consider giving it up to stay at home. When guys have mentioned they'd want someone at home I told them then THEY could stay at home and I could be the breadwinner. After all why should I be the one to sacrifice my career when I worked so hard to achieve it?


Amen, sister! :yes:



In regard to the 70+ hr workweek....one of my favorite expressions concerning this :

"no one on their deathbed has ever regretted not working more hours."

I've remembered that line on many an occasion while pulling yet another late night at the office, and got my ass the hell home, pronto.

Kellydancer
11-08-2010, 11:56 PM
Amen, sister! :yes:



In regard to the 70+ hr workweek....one of my favorite expressions concerning this :

"no one on their deathbed has ever regretted not working more hours."

I've remembered that line on many an occasion while pulling yet another late night at the office, and got my ass the hell home, pronto.

It's something I never thought about until my last job. I would see my boss and the coworker right below him work 70+ and when it came to downsizing they both got fired. Woke up my eyes entirely and never again will I work more than 40unless it's certain cirumstances (and I get paid). I don't want to regret all the times when I could be doing something else and instead I was working.

GrlWithTheMost
11-09-2010, 12:34 AM
^ Kelly, with all due respect I think that you've avoided lawyers and doctors because many of them would expect that their wives take to care of the children, which is something that you have made crystal clear that you just don't want to do. You have also made it clear that you have no interest in nursing your baby should you ever have one, I expect largely for the same reason.

So instead of looking for a guy that can provide for his family, you chase after a head case that can barely keep his own shit straight. This way, you both HAVE to work to make ends meet because, of course, both of you have low powered careers and neither of you could likely cover all of the bills alone.

As princessjas mentioned, raising a child well involves sacrifice and putting one's own interests behind those of the child. My wife has sacrificed a lot in order to be home with her children. Heck, for the first year of each of our two daughters' lives we could never even go out on a date together because nursing babies need to feed frequently and my wife had the food sacks ;) Our big date night each week involved cable tv and some snacks. And traveling for vacations? LOL.

And, with respect to the role of father/breadwinner, despite what you believe about the glorious life of someone working to support a family, it is also a damned difficult job with a lot of pressure attached. I cannot falter, period. While I make very good money and work a lot of hours, it is not out of a sheer love of working, but rather to provide my children with (1) a mother who is there when they need her; and (2) opportunities that I never had as a child.

Many parents today have found ways to rationalize taking easier roads. It is sad to see.

LMFAO. Well said.

JoeUnCool
11-09-2010, 07:05 AM
going off on a tangent for no reason than the fact that the memory just popped into my head............

Many years ago, when I was in college and ran around with my friend that worked at the Goldrush in Atlanta.............They used to have features nearly every week. This was 1990, when the girls could make really good money from it. Anyway, they had one feature that kept her 7 year old daughter in the car while she went in and did her show. Now, this was at night and in the March/April timeframe so the girl wasn't going to freeze or burn up. According to my friend, after the last show on the night the child was found, the club told the feature that she was not welcome back. The girls were kind enough to bring the child into the back locker room and take care of her. Now, I don't say this to say that features are bad people, or that dancers/management/security are good people. I merely state this as a sign that there are all different types out there with different values.

Having said that, I think that anyone that leaves a child in a car (winter, summer, or inbetween) for more than a couple of minutes is pushing the limits of what is acceptable behavior. I was so glad to have met the owner, management, and security of the GoldRush at that time and that they told her to get out. Unfortunately, the owner was killed in a robbery about 2 years later.

Apologies for taking us off on a tangent about parenting.

rickdugan
11-09-2010, 08:51 AM
I worked hard for my career and see no justification for giving it up to be a stay at home mom. Not my thing at all but I still want a child. I love the idea of being the main breadwinner which is why I went to graduate school. By low powered I don't mean I'll struggle jobwise, just that I really don't want to be a CEO, though I do eventually want to be director of a department. I just don't see the purpose of ANYONE working 70+, including single people. For what? so they can lose their job due to downsizing? No way and then you wasted years you could have been spending with the kids. I have dated teachers and these guys are great because they work fulltime but no 70+ hours.

What I want certainly doesn't apply to everyone, but there are a lot more like me out there than many realize. I am a career person and have always been career orientated. I'll be damned if I would even consider giving it up to stay at home. When guys have mentioned they'd want someone at home I told them then THEY could stay at home and I could be the breadwinner. After all why should I be the one to sacrifice my career when I worked so hard to achieve it?

Okay, so to sum it up...

You would like to have a baby, but only if: (1) he wants it as much, or more, than you do; (2) you do not have to be the primary caregiver; and (3) you do not have to nurse the litte thing, a practice that you find to be disgusting.

And you would like to focus on your career instead, but you have no interest in climbing too far up the ranks as that would require too many hours working.

Got it. ::)

Now in all seriousness I am not trying to be too harsh, but have you thought of looking for an option C here?

Haven't you been out of work for a long time now? In reading other posts I seem to remember you getting to a point that you were applying for a job at Target. Aren't you also living at your parents' house now? I bring these things up not to be mean, but simply to question how well that whole career focus thing has been going for you to this point in your life. Is your current career path really stable enough for you to be the main breadwinner?

And with respect to children, you yourself have said that you needed someone who could be a better father than you could be a mother. If that is your mindset then IMHO you should absolutely hold off on children. When you have them they own you, day and night. You might escape them for 40 hours per week, but what will you do when they wake you up all night for feedings, diaper changes, night terrors, fevers (little babies get these a lot as their immune systems develop), etc., etc? Will you have the patience and the fortitude to place your own needs (including sleep) on the backburner?

Heck, you even resented dating fathers because they actually did the right thing and placed their childrens' needs ahead of their desire to go on a date with you. Think about that for a minute. Rather than date a guy who actually might be a good and responsbile father, your preference is to try to start a family with a headcase that can't even take care of himself, never mind anybody else.

Again, not trying to be mean, but perhaps there is an option C out there for you? Might there be another life path that you would find more fulfilling than either of the ones that you are contemplating now?

Anyway, just a thought. Not trying to be harsh, but it seems to me that you are hitting one of those life crossroads. I wish you nothing but the best as you try to navigate through.

RD

princessjas
11-09-2010, 08:51 AM
I worked hard for my career and see no justification for giving it up to be a stay at home mom. Not my thing at all but I still want a child.

I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, just insert some reality. If you can't justify giving up something you want for a child, you really need to reconsider becoming a mother. What if your child has major developmental delays or other problems? You will HAVE to give up many of your wants, desires and dreams to do what is best for your child if that would occur. (I speak from experience.) If you can't justify giving up your wants and needs in any way, you really just aren't ready. You need to be at a point where, even if you don't want to, and it isn't your ideal situation, you are ready to give up everything you want and think you need in order to raise your child to the best of your ability. Sacrifice is unfortunately often a big part of parenthood (not that the positives don't more than make up for it, but it is something you have to be ready for). I've seen so many disasters that happen if you aren't in that mindframe (my cuz who had hers at 21 & 22.)

Kellydancer
11-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Right now I am doing freelance work so I'm not really unemployed. So being unemployed and living with my parents (which I am not) is not what's going on here. Even if that was true, you are aware the economy is crap now, aren't you? There just aren't jobs out there. Besides even if my husband was the main breadwinner what if he lost his job? I have MANY friends who were stay at home wives who had to go back because of this. Others went back because they decided to leave their cheating husband. I just don't think it's right when people think the mother should give up her career but they never say that to the father, ever. I enjoy working but that doesn't mean I don't deserve to have a child either.

I don't date dads, that is true, but not because I resent them. Basically, I don't want to pay for them or worse yet the ex. I don't want to be denied anything because his kids need something. Not to mention the whole divorce situation which I have serious problems with.

I will give up things for a child, but I expect the dad too as well. I will be giving up sleep and money and time. I realize that things change when you have kids, but it should be both parents not just the mom. We live in a time where women have freedom to be what they want, so women can very well be a wife mother and career person.

KaylaM
11-09-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, just insert some reality. If you can't justify giving up something you want for a child, you really need to reconsider becoming a mother. What if your child has major developmental delays or other problems? You will HAVE to give up many of your wants, desires and dreams to do what is best for your child if that would occur. (I speak from experience.) If you can't justify giving up your wants and needs in any way, you really just aren't ready. You need to be at a point where, even if you don't want to, and it isn't your ideal situation, you are ready to give up everything you want and think you need in order to raise your child to the best of your ability. Sacrifice is unfortunately often a big part of parenthood (not that the positives don't more than make up for it, but it is something you have to be ready for). I've seen so many disasters that happen if you aren't in that mindframe (my cuz who had hers at 21 & 22.)

Mommy here.. I second this.

Jessie_tinydancer
11-10-2010, 01:17 PM
I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, just insert some reality. If you can't justify giving up something you want for a child, you really need to reconsider becoming a mother. What if your child has major developmental delays or other problems? You will HAVE to give up many of your wants, desires and dreams to do what is best for your child if that would occur. (I speak from experience.) If you can't justify giving up your wants and needs in any way, you really just aren't ready. You need to be at a point where, even if you don't want to, and it isn't your ideal situation, you are ready to give up everything you want and think you need in order to raise your child to the best of your ability. Sacrifice is unfortunately often a big part of parenthood (not that the positives don't more than make up for it, but it is something you have to be ready for). I've seen so many disasters that happen if you aren't in that mindframe (my cuz who had hers at 21 & 22.)

K so I haven read all the posts so excuse me if Im way off here.

I totally agree that with motherhood comes sacrifice. (one of the biggest reasons I probably will only ever mother fur children who are significantly less demanding hehe). But as a child whose mother did give up everything for her... it caused major problems in my relationship and perspective of my mother and also mental health of my mom in the long run. Four kids in my family and we became her entire life which often caused issues as we grew and needed space and freedom to be ourselves. Also as we are all grown up and leaving home she cannot cope and at times tries to hold us back (I dont think she does it intentionally but without us she has nothing). Her mental health has been affected because she left her career years ago (although has always worked just not in management as she did before I was born), she is no longer a confident person. She has less friends, few hobbies and is pretty lost. This puts immense pressure on us as her children to look after her. I really wish that my mom had not given up everything for me. I really dont think it would have made a massive difference in my development. A mother is not the only influence on your life. Fathers, grandparents, aunts and uncles, siblings and family friends (the community) supporting that child need to band together so that mothers do not lose themselves through mothering. Should a mother be willing to sacrifice it all? Definitely. Especially when there will be times when the needs of the child are going to demand it whether the child has a disability or not. Should they have to sacrifice it all? Definitely not. If I were to have children I would understand that the time may come when I have to give up things that I once cherished but I do see the value in demonstrating to your children (especially daughters) that women are empowered and capable and that fathers are just as important as mothers.

princessjas
11-10-2010, 07:29 PM
^^I'm in no way supportive of giving up everything. I just think you have to be of the mindset that there is absolutely nothing that you wouldn't sacrifice or give up if you had too.

I have seen waaay too many moms lose their identity, but I don't get why, children fit into most non-partying lifestyles very easily. When Tyler was born, honestly, other than quiting work to care for him, my life barely changed. We still went to dinner 2-3 nights a week, we still went on outings every weekend, etc. We simply incorporated him into our life and since we had already settled down, there were very few changes to be honest. I worked quiet a bit harder during the day but I still had my entire day scheduled full of activities/work from 8-6pm. Dunno, but I never felt like I let my kids take over my life or lost myself in any way. I have a cousin though, who's wife did this and now their first son (who she had when they were both 17) is turning 18 and getting his own apt and she is seriously losing her mind. It's really sad, he has no real world coping skills because he has been homeschooled all but 1 yr of his life and she has used him as a babysitter for their other 3 children since he was about 7, so she is also in a position of not knowing how to cope without him around.

GrlWithTheMost
11-10-2010, 08:12 PM
Okay, so to sum it up...

You would like to have a baby, but only if: (1) he wants it as much, or more, than you do; (2) you do not have to be the primary caregiver; and (3) you do not have to nurse the litte thing, a practice that you find to be disgusting.

And you would like to focus on your career instead, but you have no interest in climbing too far up the ranks as that would require too many hours working.

Got it. ::)

Now in all seriousness I am not trying to be too harsh, but have you thought of looking for an option C here?

Haven't you been out of work for a long time now? In reading other posts I seem to remember you getting to a point that you were applying for a job at Target. Aren't you also living at your parents' house now? I bring these things up not to be mean, but simply to question how well that whole career focus thing has been going for you to this point in your life. Is your current career path really stable enough for you to be the main breadwinner?

And with respect to children, you yourself have said that you needed someone who could be a better father than you could be a mother. If that is your mindset then IMHO you should absolutely hold off on children. When you have them they own you, day and night. You might escape them for 40 hours per week, but what will you do when they wake you up all night for feedings, diaper changes, night terrors, fevers (little babies get these a lot as their immune systems develop), etc., etc? Will you have the patience and the fortitude to place your own needs (including sleep) on the backburner?

Heck, you even resented dating fathers because they actually did the right thing and placed their childrens' needs ahead of their desire to go on a date with you. Think about that for a minute. Rather than date a guy who actually might be a good and responsbile father, your preference is to try to start a family with a headcase that can't even take care of himself, never mind anybody else.

Again, not trying to be mean, but perhaps there is an option C out there for you? Might there be another life path that you would find more fulfilling than either of the ones that you are contemplating now?

Anyway, just a thought. Not trying to be harsh, but it seems to me that you are hitting one of those life crossroads. I wish you nothing but the best as you try to navigate through.

RD

Seriously. Glad Im not the only one that sees this.

Kellydancer
11-10-2010, 09:13 PM
I don't get why people see things wrong with the way I feel. Being a housewife is NOT for everyone. I should mention that the same person who said I was being conflicted has admitted cheating on his wife with strippers. To me that is just as conflicting as what I said, which isn't conflicted at all.

Yes, I want to have a kid, but not now until my financial situation clears up. However I don't feel I should be pushed into being a housewife because that's not for me. I am a career person and I find it pretty sad that people think it's great that a dad works 70+ hours but if a woman works 40 she must not be a good mom. Staying at home is NOT for everyone and I love that I have that option. Also, we all know some women who are miserable having given up her career.

Being a housewife does not make one a better parent. What makes a good parent is being there for the kid and that doesn't matter whether one works or not, though working 70+ hours is a bad idea for either parent. You don't need to work that many hours to build your career, 40 hours works fine for many fields including my field training.

I won't even go into why it's a terrible idea to date parents but it really is. If you love drama and paying for others, date parents. Otherwise avoid them like I do. Of course there are other reasons I avoid dads and these have to do with moral issues.

rickdugan
11-11-2010, 08:43 AM
Kelly, my issues are well chronicled on here and there is no doubt that I am an imperfect human being. However, raising that in this case is nothing more than a desperate attempt to deflect from the point at hand, which is whether you have the right mindset to be a mother.

And btw, when I am traveling for work and otherwise doing the admittedly dumb things that I do, my children are sleeping the sleep of angels, fresh out of the bathtub with warm, homecooked food in their little bellies. They sleep in a big, clean house with a loving and devoted mother watching over them. They also have a devoted father who, as imperfect as he is, is at the dinner table each night he is not traveling (my offices are close to my house) and works his ass off to provide for their security. They are also well mannered and their cognitive development is actively stimulated by a mother who makes the effort to teach and discipline them.

I shudder to think about how different your child's experiences will be from that. You seem to have an "I, me, my" complex that goes far beyond just your desire to work. Form everything you have said in this and other threads, it is clear that you want a child, but just not the responsibility of raising it. Like I said before, you yourself have said that you needed someone who could be a better father than you could be a mother. You also automatically poo pooed the thought of nursing your child, even if it might be a healthier option and if you were capable of doing so, because you find it "disgusting."

I found your comments regarding fathers also telling, and find your backtracking excuse about paying for their kids and exes to be weak at best. You SAID (in another thread) that you resented them for breaking dates to care for their children. You also went on to say that you did not think that it was fair to have to put up with that in a new dating situation and implied that they should be focusing on you.

When I add all of these things up, I can only come to the conclusion that you will likely not be a very good mother as your head is in the wrong place. And frankly I wouldn't wish a headcase like Flakey on any child as a father either.

Oh, and as to your comment about deserving a child, nobody deserves a child. It is a tremendous burden and responsibility and you could do a lot of permanent damage to a child if you are not in the right mindset to care for, and nurture, that child properly.

Like I said before, I wish you nothing but happiness, but I seriously question whether this would be right for you and strongly suspect that you will be very unhappy with the reality of it.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 12:05 PM
Since that is an attack because I called you out on previous comments I see no reason to respond. While you think I would make a lousy mother because I refuse to give up my career I think you are a lousy husband (if not a father) because you are too busy cheating on your wife. I feel for your wife because I'm sure she's not aware you cheat on her and I wonder if your situation would be different if she knew. Cheating is the one reason I support divorce.

Why I don't date dads has little to do with this thread so why you brought it up no idea. Perhaps to glorify that dads are terrific which they are not. They are like anyone else but no I have no reason to date them. I have several posts why I go into detail about never dating dads and it goes beyond financial. Simply put I don't want to be a stepmom. Childless people should be aware of the problems with dating parents.

I never said I didn't want the responsibility of raising kids, I said I refuse to give up my career to raise them. That doesn't make me a bad mother because most women keep their jobs after children. In fact that is a wise idea because no one knows if this will be important. What if the father lost his job? What if the mother wanted to leave the father but couldn't because she didn't have money? This is an unstable economy and no job is safe. Just because the guy I want is a headcase (as you put it) doesn't mean that he can't support others. He could, but once again I am the one with the masters degree, he didn't got to college. I am the one with the white collar skills, he's blue collar.

I'm done discussing this with you. You have made it known that you despise working mothers so I am done with this.

princessjas
11-11-2010, 01:11 PM
Oh, and as to your comment about deserving a child, nobody deserves a child. It is a tremendous burden and responsibility and you could do a lot of permanent damage to a child if you are not in the right mindset to care for, and nurture, that child properly.

Like I said before, I wish you nothing but happiness, but I seriously question whether this would be right for you and strongly suspect that you will be very unhappy with the reality of it.

This is so true! No one deserves a child unless they are willing to do whatever it takes to insure that childs well being Yes, even at the expense of their own happiness. Unfortunately 90% of the people having kids out there today are waaay to selfish to ever deserve the privledge of having children. That's why we have all these little monsters shooting up schools and beating their peers for fun and don't even get me started on the childhood obesity trend, which YES is 100% the parents fault. Blame it on the fastfood chains? Well, who the hell is taking them there?

Oh, and I love how childless people inform parents that children don't need a full-time parent as a caregiver or don't need to be breastfed. Well, check with your local pediatrician, they'll sure as hell tell you differently. Until they are about a year old, they need near constant interaction and cuddling. Do you really think it's okay for someone other than the parents to be doing this? How is your child ever going to form that bond with you if someone else is doing 80% of their daily care? Babies bond to who meets their daily needs, not by who plays with them or is the most cuddly or fun. Newborns are going to be asleep all but 2-3 of hours of the time after you get home. That isn't much time to get to know your child.

Oh, and if they don't get enough physical contact and interaction, they don't form a connection with anyone. The first 2 years of life are crucial, if they don't get enough attention they develop an inability to have empathy for anyone or anything and are basically sociopath's. It's a very sad thing to see. They could literally kill their parents (or anyone else)with zero regret if they don't get whatever they want....and yes, I've seen this in a young teenager, it is truly terrifying.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 01:28 PM
With all due respect I think you are blaming working parents for everything and it's not right. Yes obesity and shooting up schools is a problem but I've known stay at home moms who had monsters of kids and fat kids so no it's not just a career issue.

Sure in a PERFECT situation it would be the best to have a parent (not always a mother) stay at home but we don't live in a perfect world. Most of the people I know are working parents because both have to work. I know people (male and female btw) who'd love to stay at home but they can't because they can't afford it and no I don't mean because they are buying a second house. No these are people working to afford ONE house and maybe two decent cars. Like I said before if I married a guy who wanted to stay at home and at the time I had a great job then no problem (and no I'm not having kids until my job situation clears up which it will soon). I also happen to live in an area with high cost of living and most couples both have to work to afford it. I've also explained that if I have kids my parents (or perhaps my husband's parents depending on who I marry) will watch the kids during the day. This is much better than daycare, which I would prefer not to have.

Just because I wouldn't stay at home doesn't mean my kids will struggle. I've known many kids who were from stay at home moms who were terrible people. One raped three people, others are just terrible people. Actually if anything my daughter will see that she can be anything she wants because her mom was a role model. There was an article I read about the daughters of high powered women and these women really respected that their mothers had careers. They were able to see that they could choose to work.

Oh and for those who think it's so terrific for mothers to always stay at home, just read studies from mothers in the 50's. Many were angry at their situation and drug use was a problem with them. Sure, there were some who loved it, but certainly not all.

princessjas
11-11-2010, 01:59 PM
^^As the child of a career woman, here is my take on it. Just to add some perspective.

My mother was the primary breadwinner and the only time she tried to do the stay at home mom thing she turned into a total bitch and had to go back to work. I've hated her my entire life. I literally despise the woman, partly for other reasons but partly because I have always felt she chose her family (her parents and brother who she worked with) over OUR family (still does as a matter of fact). I don't think I will ever forget the fact that staying home and taking care of me made her more miserable than anything else in her life.....and before you ask, I was a good kid, never got in any trouble, never disobeyed or anything. I was too terrified of my mom to do anything wrong, because I always knew she never gave a shit about me, so what would stop her from doing something awful. Oh, and yes, she played the doting mother when she got home, but I always knew it was nothing but an act, a carefully put on performance. After her attempt to stay at home with me, I would shudder in revulsion every time she kissed or hugged me. It just seemed so fake.

Now, I've never admitted this to anyone other than a few of my friends who also had working mothers when we were kids, because it sounds awful. I've lied to everyone, even the psychiatrist I had to see after my suicide attempt at 14 (which yes, my mother was the direct cause of). Told them all I respected her and all, when really, I think she is the fakest person on the planet and should have never been allowed to raise a child. All but one of my childhood friends who had working mom's felt similarly, btw, we just couldn't say anything because god forbid you speak out against women doing whatever they want, you'll be crucified. Oh, and the friend who didn't feel this way, never knew her father and yes, when Steph, Edie, Beth, Lynn, Dawn and I tried to talk to her about it, she made us feel like scum.