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Casual Observer
11-11-2010, 02:18 PM
I never said I didn't want the responsibility of raising kids, I said I refuse to give up my career to raise them.

See, this is where the disconnect with reality comes into view.

Honest question--if career is so important--maybe the most important to you, why do you even want children? There are no rational reasons to have children--only emotional reasons. People lie to themselves about that fact all the time, but that's reality.

I don't recall anyone here saying that Mr. Moms are losers (except for those admitted mercenary entitlement Pinkies here that relate to the OP topic) or that career-motivated women are inherently poor parents. There's the issue of serving two masters, but let's set that aside for a moment.

If the idea of single men raising their own kids is so offensive to you (for some ambiguous moral reasoning of dubious value), why would you want to have any of your own? Are they some kind of fashion accessory or status symbol? What are kids going to give you that you don't have now?

I'm not asking these questions rhetorically or glibly--I'm honestly curious why you would bother with kids.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 02:24 PM
^^As the child of a career woman, here is my take on it. Just to add some perspective.

My mother was the primary breadwinner and the only time she tried to do the stay at home mom thing she turned into a total bitch and had to go back to work. I've hated her my entire life. I literally despise the woman, partly for other reasons but partly because I have always felt she chose her family (her parents and brother who she worked with) over OUR family (still does as a matter of fact). I don't think I will ever forget the fact that staying home and taking care of me made her more miserable than anything else in her life.....and before you ask, I was a good kid, never got in any trouble, never disobeyed or anything. I was too terrified of my mom to do anything wrong, because I always knew she never gave a shit about me, so what would stop her from doing something awful. Oh, and yes, she played the doting mother when she got home, but I always knew it was nothing but an act, a carefully put on performance. After her attempt to stay at home with me, I would shudder in revulsion every time she kissed or hugged me. It just seemed so fake.

Now, I've never admitted this to anyone other than a few of my friends who also had working mothers when we were kids, because it sounds awful. I've lied to everyone, even the psychiatrist I had to see after my suicide attempt at 14 (which yes, my mother was the direct cause of). Told them all I respected her and all, when really, I think she is the fakest person on the planet and should have never been allowed to raise a child. All but one of my childhood friends who had working mom's felt similarly, btw, we just couldn't say anything because god forbid you speak out against women doing whatever they want, you'll be crucified. Oh, and the friend who didn't feel this way, never knew her father and yes, when Steph, Edie, Beth, Lynn, Dawn and I tried to talk to her about it, she made us feel like scum.



I'm sorry that happened to you, but not all working mothers are that way. I know many who are reluctant to work (men too actually) but know that if they don't the bills won't get paid. Others really love their job but love their kids too. I know a few kids (now adults) who despised their moms for working, but also know people who despised their stay at home moms for staying at home. Working or staying at home doesn't make a difference whether one is a good parent or not. Even though I would work I would be a good mom. I would read to my kids, I would spend time with them and be a disciplinarian when needed.

My mom went back to work when I was a kid and she was a lot happier. She gave up a great career (this was the 60's) and she regrets this. She's only admitted recently she regrets it but this was back when women gave up careers to stay at home. Even though she went back to work both her and my dad were devoted to me and my brother. She was a room mother and Brownie leader and my dad was a coach for my brother's soccer team. I suspect the difference is that neither my parents worked 70+ hours. My dad worked 40 hours mostly as a blue collar worker (mechanic) and this is partly why I personally seek out blue collar men. My mom did a variety of jobs but her biggest one was managing a printing shop, and she loved it. If my parents had worked more than 40 it's possible I'd resent them for it, but the kids came before the job and that I actually agree with, though I'd work.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 02:33 PM
See, this is where the disconnect with reality comes into view.

Honest question--if career is so important--maybe the most important to you, why do you even want children? There are no rational reasons to have children--only emotional reasons. People lie to themselves about that fact all the time, but that's reality.

I don't recall anyone here saying that Mr. Moms are losers (except for those admitted mercenary entitlement Pinkies here that relate to the OP topic) or that career-motivated women are inherently poor parents. There's the issue of serving two masters, but let's set that aside for a moment.

If the idea of single men raising their own kids is so offensive to you (for some ambiguous moral reasoning of dubious value), why would you want to have any of your own? Are they some kind of fashion accessory or status symbol? What are kids going to give you that you don't have now?

I'm not asking these questions rhetorically or glibly--I'm honestly curious why you would bother with kids.

Actually, I've never said anything about single dads raising their own kids. I think these guys are admirable. I just said I don't date dads for many reasons. I may consider dating a man who was a widow, but not divorced or never married dads. Many reasons but I don't want to be a stepmom, nor do I want to support kids not mine or an ex. Yes this happened to a friend of mine. She ended up not being able to have kids because the kids from her husband and his exwife cost him so much. Plus I am Catholic and I generally oppose divorce or out of wedlock children.

No a career isn't the most important part, nor should it be for everyone. I just don't think it's fair that women are often expected to give up their careers no matter what, even though the dad might be a better stay at home parent or even that it would make them miserable.

rickdugan
11-11-2010, 02:44 PM
Kelly, I'm not attacking you, simply disagreeing with you. And I most certainly don't despise working mothers, particularly those that need to do so.

But you are actually engineering the situation so that you HAVE to work, which I find sad. I do believe that those first years are critical and that there is no substitute for a parent. And yes I do think that mothers that have a choice, but choose to work during early development years, tend to be very bad mothers with little real interest in raising their children. To me these are the mothers who never learned that it is not supposed to be about them or their careers, but rather their children.

We'll have to agree to disagree about your actual interest in raising a child. To me your accumulated comments say otherwise. And the relevance of your dating dads comments was that, instead of understanding and accepting their need to care for their kids instead of cater to you, you took exception to it. Not a good starting indicator of one's empathy regarding the need to push aside other wishes to care for a child. ;)

But I have to say that I agree with CO about one thing: Why have them at all at this point?

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 02:48 PM
But what about the fathers? I think men who put their careers over their kids or work long hours are just as bad as the mothers who do it. Yet for some reason people think this is fine. See, this is what bothers me because people assume the mother is the better caregiver and this isn't always the case. I know several stay at home dads, and like moms they vary. Some are great, some are not.

Like I said earlier my dating dads really isn't because the kids will take preference over me. Yes that is a point but not the main one. The main one is financial. I also don't want my kids to suffer because of other kids or even be denied children because he can't afford others.

princessjas
11-11-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm sorry that happened to you, but not all working mothers are that way. I know many who are reluctant to work (men too actually) but know that if they don't the bills won't get paid. Others really love their job but love their kids too. I know a few kids (now adults) who despised their moms for working, but also know people who despised their stay at home moms for staying at home. Working or staying at home doesn't make a difference whether one is a good parent or not. Even though I would work I would be a good mom. I would read to my kids, I would spend time with them and be a disciplinarian when needed.

My mom went back to work when I was a kid and she was a lot happier. She gave up a great career (this was the 60's) and she regrets this. She's only admitted recently she regrets it but this was back when women gave up careers to stay at home. Even though she went back to work both her and my dad were devoted to me and my brother. She was a room mother and Brownie leader and my dad was a coach for my brother's soccer team. I suspect the difference is that neither my parents worked 70+ hours. My dad worked 40 hours mostly as a blue collar worker (mechanic) and this is partly why I personally seek out blue collar men. My mom did a variety of jobs but her biggest one was managing a printing shop, and she loved it. If my parents had worked more than 40 it's possible I'd resent them for it, but the kids came before the job and that I actually agree with, though I'd work.

Nothing happened to me to be sorry about. I just had a working mother. Of course, you didn't mind your mom going back to work once you started school. I have no issues with that, you are only missing an hour or two of your childs day at that point and they are way more independent anyway. It's when they are infants that they need you there. I am actually going back to work as soon as I get my RN liscense, but my kiddos are now in school. I've done the whole nurturing thing (and good thing, my Pediatrician assures me that if I hadn't been a sahm and breastfed Ethan, he would be completely detached and probably just sit in a corner rocking all the time instead of interacting with others).

I think you are deluding yoruself about being a good mother if you are at work all but 2-3 hrs of your child's day (infants are usually in bed by 7-8pm, so even working a standard 9-5 you wouldn't have enough time to bond). My mother thought she was a good mom too. All the adults around thought she was a good mom. Only other kids got it. She read to me, and cuddled me (ugh) and was my Brownie troop leader and was present for every recital, dance, and most parent teacher conferences, even a few ballgames, when I was a majorette, she was also the major disciplinarian.

It didn't matter. I knew from her choices where I was on the priority list. No action could have ever convinced me otherwise. Every "good mom" thing she did just made me hate her more because it came across as fake. If I was a priority she would have stayed home with me. Period. Oh, and my mom worked from 30-40hrs a week, it varied throughout my childhood. It doesn't logically make sense to me now as an adult, but those feelings have never went away. None of my childhood friends that had working mothers are now close to their family either....I think that speaks volumes.

Also, most women are full of shit when they say they have to work to pay the bills. I worked with quiet a few women in NJ that said that crap, but when it came down to it, they paid almost as much for daycare as they brought home, or were just working so they could trade in their current SUV for another brand new, outrageously expensive, gas gussling SUV every other year (I call this picking possesions over family). Factor in gas, work clothes and lunch out vs at home and they were just breaking even to avoid staying home and being a mother. (I realize not every case is this way, but there are a LOT that are.)

Casual Observer
11-11-2010, 03:24 PM
But I have to say that I agree with CO about one thing: Why have them at all at this point?

Notice she glazed over that section...

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 03:44 PM
I want them just because I want to be a mother. It doesn't matter why I just do. I don't have to explain why except that I want a child. I want to give them a great life and cuddle them and have unconditional love. I'm also hoping that it will be a bond I share with my husband (I'm a firm believer in dad being in the delivery room and at the doctor's appointments).

I just think so many are bashing working mothers and that's not really called for (and no I'm not saying I'm being bashed because I don't have kids). I don't think that a miserable stay at home mom is better than a happy career mom. In fact I would think it was the opposite. I think if kids see their parents are happy they are happy and it shows they can be anything.

Btw I am not talking about the women who work just to pay the babysitter or to buy an SUV. I know a few like that but for the most part these are women with real careers who want to pay bills. In this area it's almost impossible for a parent to stay at home unless the working parent makes close to $100,000. That's how it is near major cities.

Just because staying at home works in a specific situation doesn't mean it works in all situations. I know several cases where a woman gave up her career to stay at home. The husbands of these women are cheating and the women know it but can't leave. They regret giving up their career because they could leave him. One is also addicted to drugs too and is usually asleep when the kid is home, though she has a fulltime nanny raising her child.

princessjas
11-11-2010, 07:17 PM
I don't think that a miserable stay at home mom is better than a happy career mom. In fact I would think it was the opposite. I think if kids see their parents are happy they are happy and it shows they can be anything.

Btw I am not talking about the women who work just to pay the babysitter or to buy an SUV. I know a few like that but for the most part these are women with real careers who want to pay bills. In this area it's almost impossible for a parent to stay at home unless the working parent makes close to $100,000. That's how it is near major cities.

Just because staying at home works in a specific situation doesn't mean it works in all situations. I know several cases where a woman gave up her career to stay at home. The husbands of these women are cheating and the women know it but can't leave. They regret giving up their career because they could leave him. One is also addicted to drugs too and is usually asleep when the kid is home, though she has a fulltime nanny raising her child.

Well, first off, if a woman is miserable staying at home with her children, she shouldn't have had them in the first place. I think that is evident to anyone with half a brain. If she is simply a little less happy and slightly more stressed than she could otherwise be, then it is a sacrifice that anyone worthy of being a parent should be able to easily make. The type of sacrifice that parents (if they are halfway decent) make on a near constant basis.

The druggie, I have nothing to say about, except that I know far more druggies that work outside the home than I know of druggie sahm's. I actually only know one sahm druggie and she works when she can get hired, but just gets fired all the time. I know A LOT of druggie working mom's. They are all over the place down here. IMO though, if you are going to be a terrible person and do drugs, you are going to do that regardless of which life path you take.

I also don't get your insistance on relating raising your kids instead of paying someone to do it, to cheating. Cheating is pretty widespread and working certainly doesn't make you immune to it. Staying at home with your child also doesn't trap you. As long as you have a skill set and degree before you start your family, you should be able to find work once the kiddos start school or whenever the need arises (my ex & I owned a resume writing company and we did a TON for former sahm's returning to the workforce and they all seemed to get hired pretty easily.)

Also, we lived in NJ for years, I know what you need to support a household. What I don't get though is why someone with a degree wouldn't make that much by the time they are getting near 40? My ex admittedly had his masters, but he pulled in between 3-400k a year. Everyone, except for a teacher, that we were friends with brought in close to 100k, if not more.

Casual Observer
11-11-2010, 07:25 PM
I want them just because I want to be a mother. It doesn't matter why I just do. I don't have to explain why except that I want a child. I want to give them a great life and cuddle them and have unconditional love.

If that's the degree of self-analysis you've put into a desire for children, I don't think there's anymore to be said.

rickdugan
11-11-2010, 08:12 PM
But what about the fathers? I think men who put their careers over their kids or work long hours are just as bad as the mothers who do it. Yet for some reason people think this is fine. See, this is what bothers me because people assume the mother is the better caregiver and this isn't always the case. I know several stay at home dads, and like moms they vary. Some are great, some are not.

IDK but I think that there are a lot of reasons for this. Obviously traditional concepts play a role but there are plenty of practical considerations as well.

The father is not the one who has to carry to child to term and many women cannot work through the entire pregnancy. Between this and potential post-pregnancy problems the wife can be out of work for some time, even if she wishes otherwise, so it is wise to try to have a father who can carry the financial load.

Also, many mothers choose to nurse their children for health reasons, but of course we already know your take on this.

Finally, however, many mothers, once they have actually carried a baby for nine months, come to find it inconceivable to leave this newborn in the care of others. Yet another problem that I suspect will not burden you too much, but who knows, surprises may happen.

Net-net, until the time when men can carry a baby, give birth and feed the baby, it is usually considered wise to have a father who can shoulder the load if needed.

rickdugan
11-11-2010, 08:30 PM
I just think so many are bashing working mothers and that's not really called for (and no I'm not saying I'm being bashed because I don't have kids). I don't think that a miserable stay at home mom is better than a happy career mom. In fact I would think it was the opposite. I think if kids see their parents are happy they are happy and it shows they can be anything.

I hear this once in a while and if there is a dumber argument in support of ditching your baby each day I don't know of it. Do you think your 6 month old gives a shit about how you feel? Of course not, all it knows is whether its mother is there or not. This is completely a "you thing."

And on the topic of the need to work for financial reasons, if that is the case then so be it, but it sounds like you've done everything humanly possible to engineer this need. Also, if you were really motivated to do this then you could work nights while he worked days, or he could work a second job, or...(etc.,etc.). There are also many ways to cut expenses, including moving to a more budget friendly area, etc.

Oh, and on the topic of fairness, who ever promised you that having a kid would be fair to both parties? Sacrifices are made by both people in a variety of ways.

But of course, now that you've made sure to rule out anybody that might actually be able to shoulder the financial load or who demonstrated any responsibility to their children, you are left chasing Flakey. Who knows, in your pursuit of him nature may make this whole debate academic anyway.

Jessie_tinydancer
11-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I just think some people are meant to be "mothers" and some people are not and it doesnt make a difference if you have a career or not. Some mothers are just cold (my godmother was one) she was a great stay at home mom but exactly like what you describe your mom as PrincessJas. It was like it was all fake and she really just found her children an annoyance. My neighbour growing up was a massive career woman and studied too but she still has an amazing relationship with her two boys who are now adults because her and her husband worked as a team. They have always been a loving and close family and their boys turned out fantastic. Both start atheletes and ones in med school now. Some women are just naturals at showing a child love and nurturing them and others arent. I really dont think I could be a good mother whether or not I stayed at home and thats why I choose not to have children. If I were going to have them I want to be 100% confident that I could always be there for them emotionally regardless of my employment status. And I know I would not be happy staying at home because its just not how I get fulfilment. But I have nothing against those moms that do. I think its wonderful when a woman can look after her home and family and enjoys it and I know for sure there's lots of moms that wouldnt change it for the world. Definitely in the infancy years though, I agree children need parent bonding time, but it should come from both parents. One thing I do resent is fathers who think that just because they provide the money and the mom is home thats good enough. Its not. Even if its only a little time after work or weekend adventures. Kids need dad bonding too. Thats why we have so many screwed up people IMO. Daddy never loved the girls enough or taught the boys to be men.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 11:31 PM
Jessie, I think you'd make a great mother and that's a fantastic post of which I agree 100%.

Jessie_tinydancer
11-11-2010, 11:42 PM
^haha thanks but I really wouldnt. I know what it takes and I dont have it. Thats ok though you cant be perfect at everything and I prefer to focus my attention on being a good wife. Im much more confident in my skill set there. Luckily my husband doesnt want kids either.

I am an awesome dog mommy though. These dogs have a better life than most children ahaha.

Kellydancer
11-11-2010, 11:49 PM
I really admire people who know they don't want kids and don't have them. I've had so many friends who had kids because it was "expected" and they are miserable. I absolutely love my animals and they are completely spoiled so I know what you mean. If it came down to never having kids, I would be fine with it.

jester214
11-12-2010, 01:19 PM
If that's the degree of self-analysis you've put into a desire for children, I don't think there's anymore to be said.

What should be behind the desire to have children? Tax Breaks? Cheap Nursing Care for your later years?

I expect if I ever have children it will just happen... I'll be overjoyed, but I'm not going to analyze it any farther than that.

KS_Stevia
11-13-2010, 04:08 PM
I'm gonna agree with Jester about the parenting thing. Are there any perfect reasons to want kids?

However, everyone has made some really excellent points, particularly about pregnancy complications and post-partum issues.

Oh, and no one has mentioned post-partum depression. That's a very real and relevant issue that prevents many women from going back to work. Hence, as the laws favor mothers having more free time off work than dads, and the issues that can arise from pregnancy and childbirth, it makes sense for the mother to at least CONSIDER she might need to take extended time off work, and not set up the father to be the primary caregiver until a few months down the road. This is all in terms of a long-term plan. When one plans, they must make concessions for unexpected circumstances.

As for me, I'm from a country where my mom got a year paid leave when she had me. She also breastfed me that entire year and we lived with my grandparents, who were retired and all raised me. Although I am screwed up in many ways, I believe I turned out really well as far as intelligence, education, and social adaptation.

My brother was born in the US and mom had to go back to work 2 weeks after she had him...by c section. Yup, what a nightmare. Although he is doing ok now, he has had a lot more issues than I have. But we both have our vices, so who knows.

I can't have kids and don't want them..except for the occasional pang of sadness that I really don't have the choice anyway (without spending A LOT of money on artificial means). Its for the best, I prefer cats. They lie next to me quietly most of the time.

Kellydancer
11-13-2010, 06:09 PM
I'm gonna agree with Jester about the parenting thing. Are there any perfect reasons to want kids?

However, everyone has made some really excellent points, particularly about pregnancy complications and post-partum issues.

Oh, and no one has mentioned post-partum depression. That's a very real and relevant issue that prevents many women from going back to work. Hence, as the laws favor mothers having more free time off work than dads, and the issues that can arise from pregnancy and childbirth, it makes sense for the mother to at least CONSIDER she might need to take extended time off work, and not set up the father to be the primary caregiver until a few months down the road. This is all in terms of a long-term plan. When one plans, they must make concessions for unexpected circumstances.

As for me, I'm from a country where my mom got a year paid leave when she had me. She also breastfed me that entire year and we lived with my grandparents, who were retired and all raised me. Although I am screwed up in many ways, I believe I turned out really well as far as intelligence, education, and social adaptation.

My brother was born in the US and mom had to go back to work 2 weeks after she had him...by c section. Yup, what a nightmare. Although he is doing ok now, he has had a lot more issues than I have. But we both have our vices, so who knows.

I can't have kids and don't want them..except for the occasional pang of sadness that I really don't have the choice anyway (without spending A LOT of money on artificial means). Its for the best, I prefer cats. They lie next to me quietly most of the time.

I'm not so sure the law favors women because I don't believe there is a law except that employers need to give people 12 weeks off unpaid for family reasons. However employers are different but this is actually changing. My former employer gave anyone 12 weeks paid leave whether it was pregnancy or something else. Many employers don't even have this option and I've known women who didn't even get leave and that's wrong because women need to recover from birth, especially a c section.

The one thing I have never understood though are the women who come from the hospital and end up doing everything from taking care of the baby to cleaning and cooking. This is wrong but I would say this is why people need to pick a mate better. I've known men who refused to change diapers or feed the baby and that's partly why I state I couldn't have a baby on my own or with a guy like this. Or I would consider adoption.

Golden_Rule
11-14-2010, 07:09 PM
Do you think it's fair to pay all the rent and completely take care of your girl financially?
Or do you think responsibilities should be shared??

Just genuinely curious. :)
(and hope I'm allowed to do this!)

You want the truth?

I think far too many women are confused about the 'cause and effect'' thing. They can't rationalize that changing a social framework in one aspect effects other aspects of that same social framework.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. So with total equal rights [which I totally believe in] comes total equal responsibility AND consideration for the other gender.

What I mean is, in this current day and age of equality between the sexes, men and women should take care of each other in ALL facets of their lives together. This would include financial, equal rights to child rearing, a termination of alimony except in the most unusual cases and such cases should NOT be gender biased, even compelled civil service if the draft is reenacted, etc, etc, etc.

If we are truly equal, and we are, its the only fair way to handle it.

Golden_Rule
11-14-2010, 07:33 PM
While I don't have a problem with the idea of "taking care" of a lady I have found over the years that I get along much better with a woman who has a strong sense of independence and wants her own life. Income and a career is a part of that.

My wife made considerably less than me when we started out together. I paid most of the bills. Now we share everything based on percentage of income.

Until I started my part-time biz recently she had passed me and was making slightly more in the last couple of years. [51% of our total household income, so she paid 51% of the bills AND got 51% of the disposable income.]

When she made less I never looked down on her because my income was greater. When she started making more I didn't feel anything other than proud of her for her accomplishments. I never considered her to be anything other than an equal partner in our relationship.

Funny thing was, when I retired and she began to make a little bit more than I did with my combined pension and investments she started to treat me a little bit differently. Not all at once, but in dribs and drabs.

I finally got her to state that it was my being retired that was at the root of her resentment. I suppose it is one of the reasons I started the business I've been working in recently. I love her and don't want her pissed off at me.

Still, I can't truly fathom why my career and investment choices, which I started with long before we were a couple and that she knew about before she became my wife [including my retirement plans being aimed at my late 40's] would be fair reason for her to feel the resentment about my retirement that she apparently feels?

She doesn't want to necessarily be a partner. She wants to feel taken care of... [her words].

{sigh}

Women!?!

So now I am working again, the business is more successful than I initially imagined it would be, and my retirement is beginning to look like full time employment again. NOT what I had in mind. Now I am the one starting to feel a little resentful at not having my retirement as I planned.

Why can't women figure out what they actually want: Equality or weaker sex that has to be taken care of? Its NOT FAIR to ask for it BOTH ways.

Golden_Rule
11-14-2010, 07:47 PM
^^I never expected to be supported, but after we had the boys it worked out that way. Even though it was his idea and he never had to lift a finger around our spotless mansion and I was the best mother I could be (organized, scheduled learning activities all day long), a gourmet cook, who spent hours a day on his food and hours on the weekends organizing dinner parties and doing the laundry (he went through 20+ shirts and 10 slacks, 10 pairs of shorts, 15ish t-shirts EVERY single week), always took care of myself and was all done up every day, he still always resented me. Yep, resented me for what he ask me to do, and when I ask about going back to work and mentioned his attitude, I was demonized.

Nope, I don't ever think a woman should allow herself to be taken care of.

Just for the record.

I think the tending of hearth and home is of GREAT value and equal in every way to that of the other spouse earning an income.

If one partner is taking care of ALL the business on the home front and the other on ALL the business of providing a household income these are EQUAL partners in their JOINT endeavor.

Kellydancer
11-14-2010, 08:38 PM
You want the truth?

I think far too many women are confused about the 'cause and effect'' thing. They can't rationalize that changing a social framework in one aspect effects other aspects of that same social framework.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. So with total equal rights [which I totally believe in] comes total equal responsibility AND consideration for the other gender.

What I mean is, in this current day and age of equality between the sexes, men and women should take care of each other in ALL facets of their lives together. This would include financial, equal rights to child rearing, a termination of alimony except in the most unusual cases and such cases should NOT be gender biased, even compelled civil service if the draft is reenacted, etc, etc, etc.

If we are truly equal, and we are, its the only fair way to handle it.

Agreed 100%. I actually do believe in drafting women for military service (though I am opposed to forced drafting in all cases). I believe alimony should be eliminated in most cases, only case being a stay at home parent, but only for a limited amount of time until they go to school or work. I also believe child custody issues should be equal meaning that both parents automatically share rights and it's not always the mom who should have primary custody.

jester214
11-15-2010, 08:02 PM
Agreed 100%. I actually do believe in drafting women for military service (though I am opposed to forced drafting in all cases). I believe alimony should be eliminated in most cases, only case being a stay at home parent, but only for a limited amount of time until they go to school or work. I also believe child custody issues should be equal meaning that both parents automatically share rights and it's not always the mom who should have primary custody.

I might love you a little bit... ;D

Though alimony... Ehh.... I've situations where alimony makes sense, but yeah certainly not all the time.

Kellydancer
11-15-2010, 08:23 PM
I might love you a little bit... ;D

Though alimony... Ehh.... I've situations where alimony makes sense, but yeah certainly not all the time.

Alimony should be very limited because let's be honest it usually hurts the man financially. I know there are women who paid alimony but most of the time it was a man (usually a rich man) paying money to his trophy wife. I know several cases where a woman only married the guy for his money then divorced him for it. This of course is different than child support (which I believe in).

nelly33
11-15-2010, 08:46 PM
Alimony should not be very limited IMO, and the reasons I believe that have come up in this thread over and over. If a woman is a stay at home mom, and has put her career on hold in order to take care of the kids, that was a decision made by the family. As soon as the divorce becomes final the woman cannot be expected to pick up where she left off before she became a stay-at-home mom.

FBR
11-15-2010, 09:12 PM
This of course is different than child support (which I believe in). I agree. Fighting alimony is one thing, but IMO any man who dodges his child support is a POS. Way back in the day (before I got custody of my kids from her) I paid not only the support but also other things the boys needed plus having her gas and electric turned back on and paying her late rent payments more than once. My ex not fighting me that hard for me to get custody was one of the biggest blessing of my life.

FBR

Kellydancer
11-15-2010, 09:19 PM
Alimony should not be very limited IMO, and the reasons I believe that have come up in this thread over and over. If a woman is a stay at home mom, and has put her career on hold in order to take care of the kids, that was a decision made by the family. As soon as the divorce becomes final the woman cannot be expected to pick up where she left off before she became a stay-at-home mom.

This is why women who stay st home have to seriously consider the serious consequences. If I had a daughter I would advise her against staying at home if she had a career that would be affected. The same would be for a guy who also stayed at home and yes many do. The main difference though is women already have a disadvantage being a woman and staying at home makes it worse because that's years out of the workforce. We all like to think divorce never happens but it does, and both spouses need to be prepared in the event the marriage ends. In many cases they aren't and taxpayers end up supporting them.

However many people stay at home doing nothing then when they get divorced expect alimony. I've seen this happen a few times and even with stay at home dads (yes there are men). Alimony should be limited to people who stayed at home and should be limited while the former stay at home parent restarts their career or goes back to school.

Kellydancer
11-15-2010, 09:22 PM
I agree. Fighting alimony is one thing, but IMO any man who dodges his child support is a POS. Way back in the day (before I got custody of my kids from her) I paid not only the support but also other things the boys needed plus having her gas and electric turned back on and paying her late rent payments more than once. My ex not fighting me that hard for me to get custody was one of the biggest blessing of my life.

FBR

I've known a few guys who didn't pay child support and yes they are pos. Same with women too who don't pay (though it's mostly men who pay). That's great you got custody. I've known so many guys who were better parents but lost custody to their wives. If we want full equality this has to be with child custody too. I believe the better parent should get custody regardless of gender.

rickdugan
11-15-2010, 10:32 PM
This is why women who stay st home have to seriously consider the serious consequences. If I had a daughter I would advise her against staying at home if she had a career that would be affected. The same would be for a guy who also stayed at home and yes many do. The main difference though is women already have a disadvantage being a woman and staying at home makes it worse because that's years out of the workforce. We all like to think divorce never happens but it does, and both spouses need to be prepared in the event the marriage ends. In many cases they aren't and taxpayers end up supporting them.

IMHO if you think like that it's doomed from the start.

Yes divorce happens, but IMO people who divorce with children are stunningly selfish (FBR this is no shot at you - if she was willing to let go of her children then there was likely something deep seated happening there). Too many people divorce for silly reasons, and it is almost always the children that suffer.

Kelly, like you I used to stay clear of most divorced women when I was dating, unless he left her and she retained custody of the kids. But the second I heard bullshit like "we grew apart", "we never got along" or some other BS reason all bets were off. If she didn't have the character to stick it out with the father of her kid(s) then I certainly had no interest in putting another child in her belly.

Kellydancer
11-15-2010, 10:55 PM
IMHO if you think like that it's doomed from the start.

Yes divorce happens, but IMO people who divorce with children are stunningly selfish (FBR this is no shot at you - if she was willing to let go of her children then there was likely something deep seated happening there). Too many people divorce for silly reasons, and it is almost always the children that suffer.

Kelly, like you I used to stay clear of most divorced women when I was dating, unless he left her and she retained custody of the kids. But the second I heard bullshit like "we grew apart", "we never got along" or some other BS reason all bets were off. If she didn't have the character to stick it out with the father of her kid(s) then I certainly had no interest in putting another child in her belly.

I support divorce in limited cases (like abuse for example) but yeah those excuses would make me run like hell. I've dated a few divorced men without kids and they gave ridiculous reasons for divorcing and I knew they would do it to me too. Luckily these weren't serious relationships. I dated a few divorced guys with kids and I knew once I found out they had kids I could never date them seriously. One of the guys even admitted his kids were having problems with the divorce. People think I am terrible for not dating dads but it really is a lot of work to date someone with kids, especially if there's drama with the ex.

I like to think all marriages last but the divorce rate tells us otherwise. I hope to marry once. That's why I plan to pick a spouse very carefully. That's yet another reason I never plan to marry a dad because close to 80% of marriages between a parent and a childless person ends in divorce.

jester214
11-16-2010, 12:10 AM
This is why women who stay st home have to seriously consider the serious consequences.

I dunno about that... My Mom put my Dad in the position so that he could be making 160K+ a year. She worked before, during, and after he did Med School. Followed him all around the country while he got to the position, then worked in his office as a nurse off and on for years...

Then he ditches her around age 60+??? Her earning potential is practically shot? He can do another 10 years at at least 100+ if he wants...

I don't have a problem with alimony in that case.

Kellydancer
11-16-2010, 12:14 AM
I dunno about that... My Mom put my Dad in the position so that he could be making 160K+ a year. She worked before, during, and after he did Med School. Followed him all around the country while he got to the position, then worked in his office as a nurse off and on for years...

Then he ditches her around age 60+??? Her earning potential is practically shot? He can do another 10 years at at least 100+ if he wants...

I don't have a problem with alimony in that case.

That would be acceptable way to get alimony. I know of cases where the wife put the husband through medical or law school, then once he built a career he left her for a trophy wife. In that case yes the women deserve a alimony. I know a few women who became nurses, took off a few years and came back at the same pay. Teachers too. But like I said these are notable exceptions.

Mr Hyde
11-16-2010, 04:04 PM
I dunno about that... My Mom put my Dad in the position so that he could be making 160K+ a year. She worked before, during, and after he did Med School. Followed him all around the country while he got to the position, then worked in his office as a nurse off and on for years...

Then he ditches her around age 60+??? Her earning potential is practically shot? He can do another 10 years at at least 100+ if he wants...

I don't have a problem with alimony in that case.

Agree on this. My general feelings on this whole subject are...

1-Any man that dodges child support is a worthless sack of shit
2-Alimony should be given sparingly, but when given, should be generous. 60 year old wife who supported her doctor husband, put him through med school, etc..and then got ditched on her 60th birthday for a younger model? Put the screws to him. 30 year old woman who cheated on her hub and then demands a divorce and alimony settlement? Go pound salt. Basically...use common sense.
3-The best way to avoid all of this? Don't rush into marriage, don't get married young, and do your best to choose a spouse that you feel good about growing old with...and then stick it out through any rough patches.

princessjas
11-16-2010, 04:57 PM
This is why women who stay st home have to seriously consider the serious consequences. If I had a daughter I would advise her against staying at home if she had a career that would be affected. The same would be for a guy who also stayed at home and yes many do. The main difference though is women already have a disadvantage being a woman and staying at home makes it worse because that's years out of the workforce. We all like to think divorce never happens but it does, and both spouses need to be prepared in the event the marriage ends. In many cases they aren't and taxpayers end up supporting them.

However many people stay at home doing nothing then when they get divorced expect alimony. I've seen this happen a few times and even with stay at home dads (yes there are men). Alimony should be limited to people who stayed at home and should be limited while the former stay at home parent restarts their career or goes back to school.

This is a classic example of someone giving advice and spouting opinions on a topic they have zero experience with. It reminds me a lot of my ideals about raising children before I had them. Pfft. Ideals are great, but reality is the place where I have to live, I don't get the luxury of living in perfectland.

Personally, I supported my husband by working a well paying day job and dancing at night while he got his MBA and Masters degrees in Finance and Management. He always promised that as soon as we could afford it I could go back and finish up my degree, but of course, his wild shopping sprees of around 20k or more every 6 mos always meant that WE had to watch what WE were spending (which translated to mean I had to count every dime I spent, even had to slash our grocery bill in half, while he continued to buy whatever he wanted or needed). Then he lost his day job which caused a complete personality change. He became abusive and plain mean. Constantly ragged on me for staying at home and not bringing in enough cash, even though I wrote more resumes for our business than he did and continued to do 100% of the childcare, housework, laundry, cooking, etc, while he sat on his ass and watched TV all day.

I never believed in divorce, but feel I was cornered and pushed into it and personally, I think I deserve alimony until I can graduate with my RN license. What about all the women much older than me, where going back to school isn't really an option? Should they just be destitute if their husband becomes abusive or wants to leave for a younger woman?

You also mention that women need to seriously consider the consequences of staying at home, what about considering the consequences your child will suffer if you don't stay home with them? Although considering your earlier statements about how not being breastfed and not having a sahm was good enough for you therefore it will be good enough for your child, I doubt you'd care that much. Not trying to sound harsh, but I've never met a halfway decent parent that didn't want a better life for their child than what they had. Yes, before you mention it, I'd wager that well over half of parents these days have the same attitude you seem to have, but that doesn't make them good parents. It's sad really.

jester214
11-16-2010, 05:10 PM
^I thought you had a graduate level bio-chem degree?

princessjas
11-16-2010, 05:38 PM
^I thought you had a graduate level bio-chem degree?

No, one class to finish my bachelor's + about 50 hrs (now more, lol) allowed me to work in many positions that required a degree though. I'm a typical idealistic, tree-hugging, Bio major. I took a bunch of grad level classes that interested me without completing that one damn class that was taught by a professor I despised. I got in on all the research I wanted without my degree, so before I had kiddos to support it wasn't a biggie.

The crap thing about a BioChem degree is unless you have 20 yrs experience you aren't going to make squat unless you are damn lucky and are willing to travel around to wherever the decent pay is....obviously with kiddos, I need another degree, which is why I'm pursuing Nursing. My NP + Masters in BioChem should have me pretty well set and I can achieve that in around 2.5 yrs. Then we're talking Dr's wages. Hell, I'll pay HIM alimony if he just supports me while I finish school. ;)

rickdugan
11-16-2010, 05:55 PM
I understand the position that princess is in and agree with it. Nobody gets married with the belief that it will end in divorce. A good marriage is one where both people are supposed to push aside their selfish wants and work together towards a common goal. In this case, princess was rightly putting her own desires aside in order to build a stable and loving household for her children.

Unfortunately her ex wasn't willing to do the same, even though he no doubt told her that he would and she relied upon this when she decided to stay home and raise the children.

He was a falure as a husband, failure as a father and failure as a human being. If he is now in a position to pay for his failures, then in my opinion that is the least he can do.

Kellydancer
11-16-2010, 09:15 PM
This is a classic example of someone giving advice and spouting opinions on a topic they have zero experience with. It reminds me a lot of my ideals about raising children before I had them. Pfft. Ideals are great, but reality is the place where I have to live, I don't get the luxury of living in perfectland.

Personally, I supported my husband by working a well paying day job and dancing at night while he got his MBA and Masters degrees in Finance and Management. He always promised that as soon as we could afford it I could go back and finish up my degree, but of course, his wild shopping sprees of around 20k or more every 6 mos always meant that WE had to watch what WE were spending (which translated to mean I had to count every dime I spent, even had to slash our grocery bill in half, while he continued to buy whatever he wanted or needed). Then he lost his day job which caused a complete personality change. He became abusive and plain mean. Constantly ragged on me for staying at home and not bringing in enough cash, even though I wrote more resumes for our business than he did and continued to do 100% of the childcare, housework, laundry, cooking, etc, while he sat on his ass and watched TV all day.

I never believed in divorce, but feel I was cornered and pushed into it and personally, I think I deserve alimony until I can graduate with my RN license. What about all the women much older than me, where going back to school isn't really an option? Should they just be destitute if their husband becomes abusive or wants to leave for a younger woman?

You also mention that women need to seriously consider the consequences of staying at home, what about considering the consequences your child will suffer if you don't stay home with them? Although considering your earlier statements about how not being breastfed and not having a sahm was good enough for you therefore it will be good enough for your child, I doubt you'd care that much. Not trying to sound harsh, but I've never met a halfway decent parent that didn't want a better life for their child than what they had. Yes, before you mention it, I'd wager that well over half of parents these days have the same attitude you seem to have, but that doesn't make them good parents. It's sad really.

Because I would consider to work that makes me a bad would be parent? Not hardly. Staying at home should be a choice but not for everyone. Just look at women from the 50's who got into drugs because they were forced to stay at home. It's great that it worked for you but wouldn't work for me and that doesn't mean I'd be a bad mother. Just because a woman stays at home doesn't make her a good mother. I've known MANY bad housewives who were too busy screwing the gardener while the nanny watched the kids. Couples need to decide what's best for them. And since you were able to stay at home, doesn't mean all women can. You mentioned $100,000 and I don't know many people who make even close to that here, and I know Ph.D's and lawyers. Besides why should it be just the woman? What if my husband wanted to stay at home? I would be fine with that.

And yes women need to make sure they are protected in the event of a divorce. I have several friends who were sahm and they are going back to work because their husbands (who were cheating btw) are divorcing them for their girlfriends. Like I mentioned there are exceptions for alimony but no, if a woman can work she should. Women aren't needy creatures who need to be protected in most cases. An older woman who gave up a career (or never had one) is far different than a 30 year old who just chose not to work.

I am tired of discussing this and am tired of people judging me for not wanting to stay at home. Working parents aren't always bad and sahm aren't always good.

Kellydancer
11-16-2010, 09:18 PM
Agree on this. My general feelings on this whole subject are...

1-Any man that dodges child support is a worthless sack of shit
2-Alimony should be given sparingly, but when given, should be generous. 60 year old wife who supported her doctor husband, put him through med school, etc..and then got ditched on her 60th birthday for a younger model? Put the screws to him. 30 year old woman who cheated on her hub and then demands a divorce and alimony settlement? Go pound salt. Basically...use common sense.
3-The best way to avoid all of this? Don't rush into marriage, don't get married young, and do your best to choose a spouse that you feel good about growing old with...and then stick it out through any rough patches.

Yes. I agree with all of it. Like I said I understand alimony in certain instances but have known trophy wives (some had kids, some didn't) who spent all day shopping and working out while the nanny and the maid watched the kids. I don't think they should get more than child support.

princessjas
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
Because I would consider to work that makes me a bad would be parent? Not hardly. Staying at home should be a choice but not for everyone. Just look at women from the 50's who got into drugs because they were forced to stay at home. It's great that it worked for you but wouldn't work for me and that doesn't mean I'd be a bad mother.

What would make you a bad mother isn't that you would choose to work, it's that you don't seem to even care if that would be the best choice for your child or not, or to even acknowledge that you may have a child that needs you at home. You keep glossing over the point we are trying to make here and that is the fact that you seem much more concerned with your own happiness than with any future childs welfare and happiness.

It's scary to see this attitude, because so many mom's I've known have had children with serious problems at birth, and have had to stay at the hospital for days on end for a period of 3 or 4 mos and pump breast milk (another thing which you've vehemently spoke out against) in order to give their child a fighting chance at life. I can't imagine what would have become of my nephew or my friends daughter, both of whom had severe breathing difficulties and were in NICU for months, if they would have had mothers with such opinions. I seriously doubt either would be with us today.

Also, it's ridiculous how you keep bringing up women in the 50's getting into drugs. Drugs are much more prevelant today and in my experience the working mom's are much, much more likely to experiment and be occassional users than any sahm's (probably because they have more free time away from their children, I'm not saying it has to do with their choice to work, just more opportunity). Besides a few junkies that started using while they were working and then got fired, I don't know of any sahm's who even occassionally use drugs, but I know of several working women (both with and without children) who experiment at weekend parties and go out drinking after work regularly and such.

Kellydancer
11-16-2010, 09:57 PM
If my kid "needs" a parent at home then my husband can stay at home, I'm fine with that. But of course that's not acceptable it has to be me, which is complete bs. Like I said it's great it worked for you but it doesn't for all moms and we need to accept that. It's not right to expect women to always stay at home when they don't want to, but never ask that of men. Yes I realize women give birth but many men I've known are better parents and make less than their wives. And btw if there's a serious risk to me or a child I won't have any. I'm fine with adopting. I worked way too hard to give my career up.

As for breastmilk, most babies in the 50's were bottlefed and they did just fine. I'm not against pumping I'm against the whole feeding process from the breast which I am not discussing here because there's another thread all about that. Besides many women I've known with babies with issues couldn't even breastfeed.

I'm not going to worry about "what if".

princessjas
11-16-2010, 10:54 PM
If my kid "needs" a parent at home then my husband can stay at home, I'm fine with that. But of course that's not acceptable it has to be me, which is complete bs. Like I said it's great it worked for you but it doesn't for all moms and we need to accept that. It's not right to expect women to always stay at home when they don't want to, but never ask that of men. Yes I realize women give birth but many men I've known are better parents and make less than their wives. And btw if there's a serious risk to me or a child I won't have any. I'm fine with adopting. I worked way too hard to give my career up.

As for breastmilk, most babies in the 50's were bottlefed and they did just fine. I'm not against pumping I'm against the whole feeding process from the breast which I am not discussing here because there's another thread all about that. Besides many women I've known with babies with issues couldn't even breastfeed.

I'm not going to worry about "what if".

Once again, complete disconnect from reality. You likely wouldn't know if there was going to be an issue where breast milk was necessary to give your child even half a fighting chance (like underdeveloped lungs which was the case with all four of my friends children, none of whom were high risk, two were even full term.) Also, mothers are by our very natures the nurturers in the family unit. You can argue it all you want, but psychology has proven the differences in the sexes time and time again. We are, simply put, better at it than dad's tend to be, while they are better at the fun, rough play than we are and tend to aggravate and pester their kiddos to death. I actually read numerous articles by different psychologists before I believed that this is normal and healthy for the child and just how men bond with them, very different from us, but also very important.

If "just fine" is good enough for your child though, I think that says all there is to be said about your mothering instincts. Personally, nothing has ever been good enough for my babies. I want and demand over and above what is considered "good enough" for my kiddos and couldn't fathom a mother who would settle for mediocre.

Kellydancer
11-16-2010, 11:12 PM
Whatever you say. Staying at home is what all women should do if they want good kids (sarcasm). Ok that's quite funny because I know plenty of decent kids from career moms. I guess all moms are great, you better tell Susan Smith that one. I'm sure she was a far better parent than her husband.

Believe what you want I am done with this nonsense. I'll believe what I want, and that is I have no intention of staying at home because I worked hard for my career. I could say more but I'll leave it at that. I stand by what I say and no intention of being a housewife. I didn't spend 6 years in college to be a housewife. If that was my only interest I wouldn't have gone to school. You think career women are bad mothers I think housewives are lazy. Like that stereotype? Didn't think so, though I've known far more lazy housewives (actually most I've known were lazy) than career women who were bad mothers.

Oh and Hillary Clinton was a working mom, Chelsea didn't turn out bad, did she? I prove my point. Then again for all his faults Bill Clinton is no chauvinist pig.

princessjas
11-17-2010, 09:24 AM
^^Once again, let me reiterate, since even with your degree, you are apparently illiterate...I am NOT saying that career mom's are bad parents. What I am saying is a potential mother that can't imagine giving up what she wants for her future children WILL be a terrible mother.

Thanks for calling all sahm's lazy once again though. Way to keep it classy! I won't even bother responding to the lazy comment since I've posted everything that my day includes when you bashed us into oblivion a few years ago. I also don't get why you keep bringing up cheating and drug abuse in the 50's. It makes no sense and has zip to do with someone being ready to put their children before themselves. :-\

Let me paraphrase every one of my posts. If you aren't ready to put your child before your own wants and needs and those of your husband in all instances, then you aren't ready to become a parent. Period. If you aren't ready and willing to accept that your plans will likely fly out the window when the reality of becoming a mother smacks you in the face, then you aren't ready to become a parent. There are no take backsies in parenting. It's one time, get it right, pass or fail, everything on the line. Parenting is not for wimps. ;)

jester214
11-17-2010, 10:56 AM
^The vast majority of people aren't ready to be parents when they have their first children.

I doubt you were, and I'm sure I won't if it ever happens. The odds are against it.

princessjas
11-17-2010, 11:26 AM
^The vast majority of people aren't ready to be parents when they have their first children.

I doubt you were, and I'm sure I won't if it ever happens. The odds are against it.

Before I even considered having children, I was more than willing to sacrifice anything for their well being. I was settled, already spent every night at home instead of our partying or dating, had studied up for several years on different parenting techniques and endlessly quized everyone I knew that had children. I had read voraciously about pregnancy and childrens health, ideal nutrition, vaccines, etc. I was also aware that everything I learned from books was mere theory and that every ideal I held may have to change (many, but not all did change in the face of the reality of parenting.) I was also willing to put my own wants and needs on the backburner until my children were old enough to have a measure of independence and not need constant attention.

So, while you may be correct that no one is ever completely ready, I was as ready as it is possible to be when experiencing something that throws you so many curveballs for the first time. Also, I think I've been clear in my opinion that the vast majority of people who have children are shitty parents. Why do you think we are having all the videotaped fighting among kids, such a high instance of illegal drug/alcohol use among teens, a ridiculously high number of teen/unmarried mothers and even such disasters as Columbine happening with frightening regularity. It certainly isn't because this new, modern form of parenting is working. ::)

jester214
11-17-2010, 11:53 AM
Well clearly you are the exception to the rule! Years of study and preperation, reading and asking questions! ::)

So many things on the tip of my tongue, but I'm gonna take the highroad and follow Kelly out the door.

princessjas
11-17-2010, 12:22 PM
Well clearly you are the exception to the rule! Years of study and preperation, reading and asking questions! ::)

So many things on the tip of my tongue, but I'm gonna take the highroad and follow Kelly out the door.

Ok, I don't get why that would be odd? I had been with my husband for quiet a while and as soon as we agreed that we would one day have children I started studying up on it. I had no experience with kids, so how was I supposed to know what I was doing without reading up on it? Also, if I made it sound like it was YEARS, I didn't mean too, it was from about Dec of 01 or Jan of 02 (I think I got my first book, "What to expect when you're Expecting" for Christmas that year) until Dec of 03 when I had Ty. I had a collection of about 30-40 books and several large folders of pamphlets and other miscellaneous info by the time I delivered. It really helped me feel more secure in my ability to handle the basics.

Personally I think people who don't read up on experiences they are planning in the future are stupid. I research everything. A good example of this is when we decided to move away from NJ. I researched different cities, their crime rates, unemployment rates, even the number of educated minorities in the area, because I wanted my son to be exposed to a variety of different cultures presented in a positive light.

I realize your dislike of me may mean your knee-jerk response is simply to insult me, but read back over my posts over the years. I talk about researching and planning every life decision over and over again. I feel sorry for people like you who don't plan and educate themselves before making decisions. It must be pure hell to live in that kind of chaos. At least it would be for me. :P

Chili Palmer
11-17-2010, 05:14 PM
^^...I am NOT saying that career mom's are bad parents. What I am saying is a potential mother that can't imagine giving up what she wants for her future children WILL be a terrible mother.

I must say, between your posts and rickdugan's posts on this very, very volatile subject, the two of you have made point after salient point without turning it into a classic SW FUCK YOU! NO FUCK YOU! personal attack. A little snark here and there to be sure, but nothing over the top. You've done your best to reach out, and, despite having your hand knocked away again and again, have kept it very cordial. My applause to both of you.

I quoted the above passage because out of everything that's been said, this is the most salient opinion. But, like the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water..."

CP