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yoda57us
11-17-2010, 05:23 PM
Thanks for posting that Chili. I said my peace on this topic a while ago and, quite honestly, kinda tuned it out. Princessjas' quote says it all...

KS_Stevia
11-17-2010, 06:57 PM
est for them. And since you were able to stay at home, doesn't mean all women can. You mentioned $100,000 and I don't know many people who make even close to that here, and I know Ph.D's and lawyers.

Really? I make around that much from sales jobs and know lots of professionals that make close to or more than 6 figures. And my town doesn't have half the commerce and industry of Chicago. Also, PhD doesn't mean squat in regards to income. I know a PhD, in philosophy, lolz. What do you think he makes?



Let me paraphrase every one of my posts. If you aren't ready to put your child before your own wants and needs and those of your husband in all instances, then you aren't ready to become a parent. Period. If you aren't ready and willing to accept that your plans will likely fly out the window when the reality of becoming a mother smacks you in the face, then you aren't ready to become a parent. There are no take backsies in parenting. It's one time, get it right, pass or fail, everything on the line. Parenting is not for wimps. ;)

Agreed 100%, although people do often man up when unexpected pregnancies occur. I am okay with not having children because humans easily get on my nerves after a while. This is ok. Not all of us are meant to be parents.

dlabtot
11-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Really? I make around that much from sales jobs and know lots of professionals that make close to or more than 6 figures. And my town doesn't have half the commerce and industry of Chicago. Also, PhD doesn't mean squat in regards to income. I know a PhD, in philosophy, lolz. What do you think he makes?

I remember being at a party that was rousted by the cops. My good friend had had just enough drinks to argue with them. I will never forget when he loudly declaimed:

"I have a degree in philosophy!"

Let me tell you, those cops were impressed.. ::)

Kellydancer
11-17-2010, 10:27 PM
Really? I make around that much from sales jobs and know lots of professionals that make close to or more than 6 figures. And my town doesn't have half the commerce and industry of Chicago. Also, PhD doesn't mean squat in regards to income. I know a PhD, in philosophy, lolz. What do you think he makes?

I know many educated people in good careers but very few make that amount. Perhaps it's the fields where I know people but no I really don't know anyone who makes $100,000. People think because I worked in marketing I must have made close to that, but nope never have. I actually know people who are lawyers and make $40,000. I've known semi top radio dj's who make close but not quite.


I must say, between your posts and rickdugan's posts on this very, very volatile subject, the two of you have made point after salient point without turning it into a classic SW FUCK YOU! NO FUCK YOU! personal attack. A little snark here and there to be sure, but nothing over the top. You've done your best to reach out, and, despite having your hand knocked away again and again, have kept it very cordial. My applause to both of you.

I quoted the above passage because out of everything that's been said, this is the most salient opinion. But, like the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water..."

CP

No no one knows what would happen if someone has kids, but that wasn't my point. My point is that people often think that being a woman I would automatically give up my career. Yes I do find that offensive because if I was a man it would never have even been a comment. If I was a man no one would have even brought up the whole "to be a parent you must give up things". Would I give up things for a child? Certainly as I would expect a father to as well. That makes a good parent. Like I said before I wouldn't even consider children unless I have a guy equally involved so this really isn't important now. I am very sensitive when it comes to the whole career/staying at home issue because I've seen so many comments where people just brutally attack career mothers (not here btw just in general). because of that it has made me very sensitive about it. Even when I go out with a guy when the issue of children comes up (as in when they bring it up) I tell them don't expect me to stay at home. If this was something I desired I had the opportunity to marry years ago.

To answer the question if I was to have kids I would expect to give up time and money. I would expect my kids to come first. I would hope all PARENTS would do that to make the kids good kids. Instead of going out to eat, we'd probably have dinner at home cooked by me or my husband. Instead of spending money on some new gadget I might have to spend it on the kid's. If I gave birth I would expect to take time off (8 weeks)and expect my husband too as well to help. I would expect him to change diapers or feed the baby. There might be times where I couldn't attend a company function because I might need to spend time at my child's recital. I get all of that. It's just that I find the whole "you might decide to stay at home because your child needs you at home" demeaning and sexist. But like I said I wouldn't marry a guy who would expect me to stay at home so that point is moot.

Btw, just so this is clear (this is in general no one specific), I do not think ALL housewives are lazy, I was just making a point. I would say many of them are, just as I would say career people are often lazy too. However I don't think because someone stays at home (and yes I've known men who did as well) that makes it better for the kid. In SOME cases it's probably good for a PARENT to stay at home (I say whatever parent makes less) but in most of the cases I know that is not a reality. Now if a parent makes money to buy a second home then that's another issue, but most of the parents I know where both work don't make enough for that. I come from a blue collar area and though I am personally white collar almost everyone I know is blue collar and I don't date white collar guys for the most part. I will also state that in my case I'd rather have a grandparent watch the kids than a daycare. Yes I realize my opinion could change but that goes for everyone. I've had friends who intended to stay at home but were forced to work.

nelly33
11-18-2010, 10:29 AM
What career is so important to you that you cannot see anything else taking precedence over it? To me, I work and try to become successful so that I can enjoy the things outside of work. My career choice is a means to a better end, not my reason to get up in the morning. Kellydancer, it looks like you are saying that women should have careers to make them equal to men. You make it seem like a competition. "Women should work because men work. If they don't, it's not fair!" Marriage should not be a competition. You make it seem like any marriage you get into will be a contest for who has the power.

Also, 100,000 is not an unreasonable income, and if you truly know lawyers that don't make 100,000k, they must be terrible lawyers.

Kellydancer
11-18-2010, 11:10 AM
What career is so important to you that you cannot see anything else taking precedence over it? To me, I work and try to become successful so that I can enjoy the things outside of work. My career choice is a means to a better end, not my reason to get up in the morning. Kellydancer, it looks like you are saying that women should have careers to make them equal to men. You make it seem like a competition. "Women should work because men work. If they don't, it's not fair!" Marriage should not be a competition. You make it seem like any marriage you get into will be a contest for who has the power.

Also, 100,000 is not an unreasonable income, and if you truly know lawyers that don't make 100,000k, they must be terrible lawyers.

My point is men should have a career and their family should come before it, and women same thing. That's my point. I too work so I can become successful (trying to start a business again). It has nothing to do with women and men being equal, which they are. Just that both should be free to be able to have careers and families.

princessjas
11-19-2010, 12:09 PM
I know many educated people in good careers but very few make that amount. Perhaps it's the fields where I know people but no I really don't know anyone who makes $100,000. People think because I worked in marketing I must have made close to that, but nope never have. I actually know people who are lawyers and make $40,000. I've known semi top radio dj's who make close but not quite.
Ok, I don't know what in the world is up with this. The guy straight out of college in our marketing dept at SJP (the construction company I worked for in NJ) made between 120-140k. (I don't know exactly because I had to fill out the forms for the IRS which just meant I got the positions and salary ranges from the HR lady....yep it was a small company and we only had one HR person...still our marketing guys with more than a few yrs experience made over 300k though.)




No no one knows what would happen if someone has kids, but that wasn't my point. My point is that people often think that being a woman I would automatically give up my career. Yes I do find that offensive because if I was a man it would never have even been a comment. If I was a man no one would have even brought up the whole "to be a parent you must give up things". Would I give up things for a child? Certainly as I would expect a father to as well. That makes a good parent. Like I said before I wouldn't even consider children unless I have a guy equally involved so this really isn't important now. I am very sensitive when it comes to the whole career/staying at home issue because I've seen so many comments where people just brutally attack career mothers (not here btw just in general). because of that it has made me very sensitive about it. Even when I go out with a guy when the issue of children comes up (as in when they bring it up) I tell them don't expect me to stay at home. If this was something I desired I had the opportunity to marry years ago.

Just to make it clear, we had planned on putting Ty in daycare, but were both always scared about it (there were TWO deaths in local daycares while I was preggo with Ty.) When he was born, we both realized we couldn't leave him with anyone, so my husband took all 3 weeks of his vacay time and stayed home with him, while I ran home to nurse during lunch and pumped milk in a vacant office 2-3x's a day. I put in my notice my first day back, which saved a girl's job who had to work to support her daughters.

The only real difference in your attitude and my pre-kiddo attitude is the fact that I was willing to sacrifice any and everything for my child. I had a mother that sounds exactly like you and I knew what kind of special hell that was, so I knew I what mindspace I had to be in before I could even consider children and made certain I was ready first.

Honestly, the simple fact that you find the idea of giving up something for your child offensive, really says everything. It doesn't matter what it is, you have to be ready to give up everything or you aren't ready for kids....because you just might be ask to give up that which you hold most dear. (Take it from someone who knows. I've given up my entire circle of college friends for Ethan. Intellectuals can be nasty when you have a child who is cognitively delayed. This meant I had to give up several research opportunities as well as a shot at a great grad program at WVU. ;) )

jester214
11-19-2010, 12:37 PM
Also, 100,000 is not an unreasonable income, and if you truly know lawyers that don't make 100,000k, they must be terrible lawyers.

Most lawyers don't make 100K. For ever big time lawyer there are 25 small ones. There are way, way, too many of them. Most of them are probably happy to make 70K.

rickdugan
11-20-2010, 07:23 AM
My point is men should have a career and their family should come before it, and women same thing. That's my point. I too work so I can become successful (trying to start a business again). It has nothing to do with women and men being equal, which they are. Just that both should be free to be able to have careers and families.

Did you know that a newborn's favorite position is with its head on its mother's chest. Know why? Because the child is comforted by the heartbeat it heard for nine months while it was inside the womb.

You want to ditch your child each day, you really don't think you would be a good mother anyway, you have already decided to deprive your child of the health benefits of its mother's milk, and instead of looking for a potentially good father you are hoping to marry down to a man that not only lacks your level of education, but who is also a pathetic sissy that is very likely as self centered as you are. That about sum it up?

Unfortunately you are far from alone. There is a whole generation of "me" women out there, many of them around our age, who are confused, depressive and constantly trying to find themselves. Same holds true for the men, many of whom are putting kids in girls' bellies with no sense of obligation towards their offspring.

Fortunately, in recent years I have actually been seeing a reversal of this trend among the more educated, who have been rediscovering the importance of nursing and direct childhood development, but there it is.

In any event, good luck and I hope that you think on it for a few more years (or so) before having children.

jester214
11-20-2010, 08:06 PM
The sheer amounts of both hypocrisy and pure bullshit in this thread are startling/hilarious.

rickdugan
11-20-2010, 08:11 PM
The sheer amounts of both hypocrisy and pure bullshit in this thread are startling/hilarious.

Hmmm...care to elaborate? :)

princessjas
11-20-2010, 08:34 PM
Hmmm...care to elaborate? :)

Well, he's probably like many of the peeps who basically could give two shits about their kids these days. My cuz is one and she has said basically the same thing to me many times.....It's gross that I breastfed both kiddos till they were over a year, I got special hell because Ethan was close to 18 mos before he weaned. Oh, and I have mine on the alternate vaccine schedule and taught both some basic sign language skills before they could speak (a godsend, since Ethan is severly autistic and still doesn't communicate verbally unless forced to).

Oh, and my scheduled play and learning activities?? You don't even want to hear the lectures I've heard over those! I'm apparently, expecting them to focus more than I should, cause yanno, I should let them veg in front of the TV all day! ::)

Ah, and the pièce de résistance?? I have our days scheduled out. We have a set schedule every day and always have. We get up at 7am, eat brekky, watch our morning 15-30 min of cartoons on alternate days, brush our teeth, have reading time (Barnes and Noble when we were in NC and they had story time), one hour of play time, lunch, 30 min of learning activies, nap time....our whole day is scheduled like that and has been since Ty was born. According to my family, this means I'm an evil monster. lol :O After reading your posts, I'm sure your wife is a similar evil, monster mom. lol ;) God knows, our kids suffer horrendously....thats why I can barely manage a bathroom break without mine beating on the door. ;D

princessjas
11-20-2010, 08:46 PM
Did you know that a newborn's favorite position is with its head on its mother's chest. Know why? Because the child is comforted by the heartbeat it heard for nine months while it was inside the womb.

This is still Ty's favorite position to fall asleep in and he'll be 7 on Dec 4th. No, before someone asks, he doesn't sleep with me normally and is a completely normal indpendent 1st grader......but about once every 2-3 weeks he decides he wants to sleep with Mommy and he always falls asleep in record time, while he's draped across me like this. Until Ty and Ethan were about 18 mos I put them to sleep every night by letting him curl up on my chest.

rickdugan
11-20-2010, 08:46 PM
^Deja vu - lol. My wife is a similarly "evil mom" who makes sure that her children have support and a highly structured day. They know almost exactly what they should be doing during any given moment of the day and I wouldn't have it any other way. This system has promoted a high degree of development and security in my children and I am grateful every day for it.

And my wife does all of this without the additional challenges that you face (autism and divorce). IMHO you should be stunningly proud of yourself and I greatly admire what you are doing for your children.

princessjas
11-20-2010, 09:13 PM
^^A structured life = a secure child. Thanks for the compliments btw. I try very hard. I won't claim I'm as good a mom as those with support, but I do everything in my power to provide the best for my kiddos!

rickdugan
11-20-2010, 09:22 PM
^^A structured life = a secure child. Thanks for the compliments btw. I try very hard. I won't claim I'm as good a mom as those with support, but I do everything in my power to provide the best for my kiddos!

Don't sell yourself short - your children are probably better off than many that have an involved dad. Nobody is perfect and we all have our demons, but you do what is necessary despite your challenges.

jester214
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
Hmmm...care to elaborate? :)

Not without insulting at least two people directly and a whole host of others indirectly... FBR takes issue with me when I do that.

princessjas
11-21-2010, 06:18 AM
Not without insulting at least two people directly and a whole host of others indirectly... FBR takes issue with me when I do that.

Go ahead and call me out. I'll just point out how flawed your perception of me is. It's pretty comical actually. You've been on this board for a couple of years now and we've had it out over and over, yet you still know absolutely squat about me.

I'd at least do a little recon if I was gonna be such a dick to someone all the time. Well, that's a bit of an understatement, I'd know everything you could know about said individual, but thats just me being an overachiever. :P

KS_Stevia
11-21-2010, 12:13 PM
Ok, I don't know what in the world is up with this. The guy straight out of college in our marketing dept at SJP (the construction company I worked for in NJ) made between 120-140k. (I don't know exactly because I had to fill out the forms for the IRS which just meant I got the positions and salary ranges from the HR lady....yep it was a small company and we only had one HR person...still our marketing guys with more than a few yrs experience made over 300k though.)


See, this doesn't feel right either. Cost of living is significantly higher in Jersey, hence income is higher. But marketing professionals usually don't make that much money. C-level marketing people do, but that would take at least 10 years of consistent experience and a position in a successful enough company. Entry level marketing is something like $30-40K here, and an MBA in marketing doesn't pay any more without experience.

I've never heard of a marketing person making $300K unless they are the CMO of a large organization like Apple or BofA or Walmart.

This is my own personal work and educational experience though. Let's just say that I deal with average employee job function salaries on a regular basis. Not discounting your knowledge Jas, just seeing some disconnect. Marketing is a "cost center" position, it doesn't bring in obvious revenue like a sales role. Are you sure the $300K guys weren't also salesmen who brought in business?


Most lawyers don't make 100K. For ever big time lawyer there are 25 small ones. There are way, way, too many of them. Most of them are probably happy to make 70K.

Very true. And I know some that struggle with even less than that, but they are the ones building their own practice. Again, after about 10 solid, reputable years as an attorney in certain facets of the law, one can easily earn 6 figures. It depends on what they do though, and where they live.


Did you know that a newborn's favorite position is with its head on its mother's chest. Know why? Because the child is comforted by the heartbeat it heard for nine months while it was inside the womb.


Haha, I'm in my 30's and that's STILL my favorite position! ;) No really, I love cuddles in that position, with my girl friends. And when I go home to visit my dear mum, we cuddle up when watching tv and such.

It truly is a safe place, what a poignant observation.

princessjas
11-21-2010, 07:35 PM
See, this doesn't feel right either. Cost of living is significantly higher in Jersey, hence income is higher. But marketing professionals usually don't make that much money. C-level marketing people do, but that would take at least 10 years of consistent experience and a position in a successful enough company. Entry level marketing is something like $30-40K here, and an MBA in marketing doesn't pay any more without experience.

I've never heard of a marketing person making $300K unless they are the CMO of a large organization like Apple or BofA or Walmart.

This is my own personal work and educational experience though. Let's just say that I deal with average employee job function salaries on a regular basis. Not discounting your knowledge Jas, just seeing some disconnect. Marketing is a "cost center" position, it doesn't bring in obvious revenue like a sales role. Are you sure the $300K guys weren't also salesmen who brought in business?


Marketing brought in all our business basically. I never thought about it honestly. They just called them marketing, but yeah, they did sales as well and lots of off company smoozing time. Like golfing with potential clients and such.

jester214
11-21-2010, 07:54 PM
Go ahead and call me out. I'll just point out how flawed your perception of me is. It's pretty comical actually. You've been on this board for a couple of years now and we've had it out over and over, yet you still know absolutely squat about me.

I'd at least do a little recon if I was gonna be such a dick to someone all the time. Well, that's a bit of an understatement, I'd know everything you could know about said individual, but thats just me being an overachiever. :P

I say bullshit and hypocrisy and look who assumes its about them? What would Freud say about that? 8)

And since you already referenced me "not giving two shits about my kids" I think it's clear who doesn't know squat about who.

rickdugan
11-22-2010, 04:49 AM
The sheer amounts of both hypocrisy and pure bullshit in this thread are startling/hilarious.


Hmmm...care to elaborate? :)


Not without insulting at least two people directly and a whole host of others indirectly... FBR takes issue with me when I do that.

Ok then. You made a broad, sweeping comment but won't back it up.

Where I come from we'd say "man up or..." but you are probably from someplace different. ::)

jester214
11-22-2010, 09:40 AM
Ok then. You made a broad, sweeping comment but won't back it up.

Where I come from we'd say "man up or..." but you are probably from someplace different. ::)

What is that some kind of dare? Are you 12?

I made a comment and am not getting specific because I was aiming to not insult individual people. My comment is still relevant. If avoiding even more controversy is not "manning up"... Well, interesting attitude for a discussion focused on parenting, but each his own. ::)

rickdugan
11-22-2010, 10:04 AM
What is that some kind of dare? Are you 12?

I made a comment and am not getting specific because I was aiming to not insult individual people. My comment is still relevant. If avoiding even more controversy is not "manning up"... Well, interesting attitude for a discussion focused on parenting, but each his own. ::)

So instead you post an inflammatory comment that is open for interpretation, then refuse to provide attribution or context for fear of "offending" anyone, even playing cutesy when confronted directly by pj.

No, if you wanted to avoid offending anyone you would have typed something else somewhere else. You just wanted to make a statement without being held to task for it.

LOL - passive/aggressive behavior on an Internet discussion board. NICE. ;D

princessjas
11-22-2010, 03:49 PM
So instead you post an inflammatory comment that is open for interpretation, then refuse to provide attribution or context for fear of "offending" anyone, even playing cutesy when confronted directly by pj.

No, if you wanted to avoid offending anyone you would have typed something else somewhere else. You just wanted to make a statement without being held to task for it.

LOL - passive/aggressive behavior on an Internet discussion board. NICE. ;D

See, rick was being nice, jester. Where I'm from we'd call it spineless and sniveling, not passive/agressive, but whateves. When you made your statement about not being able to elaborate without insulting two people directly it was beyong obvious you were refering to the two people who have stood up and said people need to be held fucking accountable for their childrens quality of life and held to task if they don't place their child's welfare above their own selfish wants and desires....in other words, rick and I. I have no Freudian issues, but I have a reading comprehension which is beyond....what is it?? 3rd or 4th grade when they teach interpretation/inferences/analyzing the written word, etc?

jester214
11-22-2010, 04:29 PM
^And that's where you were wrong again. Rick was not one of the two people I was talking about. If you would like to keep pushing the issue though... I can forgo my earlier qualms and just start insulting you directly? You've made it pretty clear you have no problems with that.

Will it really matter though? You apparently live in a fantasy world where stories change to meet whatever point you'd like to make at the moment. Or you're just delusional... I've never been sure.

I chose not to elaborate. You and Rick though decided that I just had to be talking about you two! With your giant ego that doesn't really surprise me, though in this case you were right (broken clock is right twice a day). Rick... I dunno, perhaps he's got a case of white-horse syndrome or maybe his ego is giant too.

The thread was ridiculous. That was my only point. Apparently you two took that as an effront. Fine. Good for you. Jas get's her attention, which I think is all she ever wants and Rick gets?? Fuck if I know.

rickdugan
11-22-2010, 06:51 PM
^And that's where you were wrong again. Rick was not one of the two people I was talking about. If you would like to keep pushing the issue though... I can forgo my earlier qualms and just start insulting you directly? You've made it pretty clear you have no problems with that.

Will it really matter though? You apparently live in a fantasy world where stories change to meet whatever point you'd like to make at the moment. Or you're just delusional... I've never been sure.

I chose not to elaborate. You and Rick though decided that I just had to be talking about you two! With your giant ego that doesn't really surprise me, though in this case you were right (broken clock is right twice a day). Rick... I dunno, perhaps he's got a case of white-horse syndrome or maybe his ego is giant too.

The thread was ridiculous. That was my only point. Apparently you two took that as an effront. Fine. Good for you. Jas get's her attention, which I think is all she ever wants and Rick gets?? Fuck if I know.

Actually I wasn't sure what or who you were talking about, which was exactly my point. If you have a direct point to make then just spit it out.

But your rancor towards princess is a little harsh, no? It's fine to be passionate about an opinion - I sure am - but going after her with terms like "delusional", "giant ego", "fantasy world" and "broken clock" comes of as a personal grudge of some kind. And do you really have some need to insult her?

This is a discussion board dude - lighten up.

princessjas
11-22-2010, 07:45 PM
Actually I wasn't sure what or who you were talking about, which was exactly my point. If you have a direct point to make then just spit it out.

But your rancor towards princess is a little harsh, no? It's fine to be passionate about an opinion - I sure am - but going after her with terms like "delusional", "giant ego", "fantasy world" and "broken clock" comes of as a personal grudge of some kind. And do you really have some need to insult her?

This is a discussion board dude - lighten up.

Jester has held a grudge against me over me being a drunk goof-off and insulting him in chat years ago. A fact that I apologized for over and over again. It takes quiet the level of immaturity to continously make a fool of yourself by bringing old grudges that most would have long sense forgotten into current threads and ddiscussions. I'm sure there should be an award somewhere for making that big an ass of yourself over and over for about 3yrs now. Hell, honestly I don't even recall exactly what was said, just his blind hatred and complete rebuffal of all attempts at extending the olive branch of peace. ::)

jester214
11-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Actually I wasn't sure what or who you were talking about, which was exactly my point. If you have a direct point to make then just spit it out.

But your rancor towards princess is a little harsh, no? It's fine to be passionate about an opinion - I sure am - but going after her with terms like "delusional", "giant ego", "fantasy world" and "broken clock" comes of as a personal grudge of some kind. And do you really have some need to insult her?

This is a discussion board dude - lighten up.

"spineless, sniveling, don't give a shit about kids, and the reading comprehension of a 5th grader". What would you call those? She made it personal, after you two insisted.

My point was direct. The thread is/was full of bullshit and hypocrisy. How much more direct do I need to be? :O

Where do you stable the white horse?

jester214
11-22-2010, 08:50 PM
Jester has held a grudge against me over me being a drunk goof-off and insulting him in chat years ago. A fact that I apologized for over and over again. It takes quiet the level of immaturity to continously make a fool of yourself by bringing old grudges that most would have long sense forgotten into current threads and ddiscussions. I'm sure there should be an award somewhere for making that big an ass of yourself over and over for about 3yrs now. Hell, honestly I don't even recall exactly what was said, just his blind hatred and complete rebuffal of all attempts at extending the olive branch of peace. ::)

Yeah... delusional fits.

Do you realize I had no idea who you were until I asked about your degree, and even then I wasn't sure? Or that I hadn't "said" a word to you in probably 18 months if not longer?

And as far as whatever "issue" you think we had in the past. All I remember is you raging on people (including me) multiple times in chat, then apologizing on the boards later for being "drunk". Then repeating the whole process. Finally I think you quit coming to chat... Oh, and I've never brought that up. It's always you... Amazing how you've changed the story though.

Fantasy World.

FBR
11-22-2010, 08:55 PM
This has become a jester/PJ/Rick fest which is boring. Thanks to all for your participation.

FBR