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Arialandre
10-19-2010, 04:40 PM
I think they meant because Jack said she should have therapy because of her "low self esteem" that he equated to getting her into the situation in the first place. Booo.

Trem
10-19-2010, 04:40 PM
People need to stop worrying about a word and start worrying about a person who is obviously hurt and traumatized.

bambiblue
10-19-2010, 05:12 PM
@BAMBIBLUE: apparently you need to read better because where in my post did I say we talked about getting a condom?? You completely misunderstood so please feel free to read carefully. I also never said I willingly took my clothes off. I also don't appreciate you saying I was not raped. Yes I am confused but were you here? NO. I am not going to post every detail because..well its just too much info.




..this is why I feel like I wasn't raped because I feel like I was just being stupid and just had a lapse in judgment. A lot of it felt good and I contemplated just giving in and enjoying it because hey sex is sex right... I even had an orgasm because he wanted me to rub myself and I did because it was anal (didn't have a CONDOM and didn't want to get one cause I guess he thought I would get dressed and leave). We even talked afterward and I told him how I felt and he hugged me and told me he was sorry he just thought I was doing foreplay because that's how we usually did it (a bit rough). P.



Anyway. I am not saying you did or didnt get raped, ... but for me it was the most traumatizing and humiliating thing that ever happened to me, and I certainly didn't enjoy ANY of IT. ANd I KNEW I WAS RAPED...I didnt THINK I was... there was no question... That's why I said it sounded more like something you regretted AFTERWARDS...like a regret over sleeping with him. My words have been misconscewed or I may have written them to sound different than what i meant...either way... what I was trying to say was what it SOUNDED like was you didnt feel comfortable having sex with your ex anymore, and he talked you into it even though deep down you didnt want to... would that make someone a rapist? IDK... my experience was MUCH different than yours. but thats how I took your post.

jack0177057
10-19-2010, 06:16 PM
I get what you're saying. I just don't think that you realise how counter-productive what you're saying is.
Just because every teenage boy will at one point do something does not make it okay. All that it means is that we need teenage boys to be educated properly on what is and isn't okay sexual conduct.

I agree. I never said it was okay - here is what I said about physical force vs. duress and manipulation:


Both involve hurting a vulnerable person for someone else's pleasure... the fact is that this boy is somebody that does not love you or value you anymore. So, for him to just TAKE your body (either by pressure and manipulation or by force) for his sole pleasure, is dehumanizing.


All I did is explain the legal/technical difference between rape (penetration by physically overwhelming force) and duress/pressure/manipulation which is evil and cruel in itself, but is not the same as legal/technical rape. Either way, she was dehumanized and is a victim.


^ I support the OP 100%, and I emphasized that she is a victim who was dehumanized - whether it was rape, bullying, duress, manipulation, intimidation,... or whatever this was exactly... she is a victim.... Also, don't interpret me saying it wasn't legally rape, as me saying the guy's duresss and manipulation is acceptable behavior. I am not saying this. What he did was totally dehumanizing to her and it was wrong and evil.

Although I started believing that there was a difference between physical coercion and emotional coercion - I later conceded, based on my review of a rape site, that both are forms of rape.

The "difficulty" is in quantifying how much emotional pressure/coercion is sufficient to constitute rape. Teenagers pressure each other to do drugs, have sex, cut school, etc., etc.,... Adolescence is all about coping with peer pressure. I am not condoning it; peer pressure is a terrible thing, kids die from it (e.g., drugs, drunk driving, stupid dares, etc.).

What if the pressure to have sex is not coming from the girl's BF, but from her best friends. In my case, the pressure to lose my virginity was from my friends, who ridiculed me constantly for still being a virgin at 17. I went to a brothel to finally end the torment and I regretted it - I wasn't ready and it was a humiliating experience.

Maybe, we should make all forms of negative peer pressure illegal. -- I'm all for that. If a child is pressured by another child to do something that causes them emotional or physical pain - this should constitute a crime.


I can say with all confidence that THIS WAS RAPE. Jack you are an idiot. The term "Normal sexual pressure" Shouldn't even exist. These are the terms that make boys think emotional/sexual blackmail is worth nothing more than a slap on the wrist. So he blackmails her into sex before she is ready and then after she feels empty dirty and spends the next week bawling her eyes out. But hey, boys will be fucking boys right? Because VERY SINGLE TEENAGE BOY will try to beg, pressure and guilt their girlfriend into having sex when HE wants it and who vcares about how she feels? They're going to do what they gotta do to get their nut right? And this is just normal sexual pressure right? That is fucked up.

I’m not sure what gave you the impression that I condone pressuring a woman into sex or that I suggested that it "is worth nothing more than a slap on the wrist". I said again and again that it is "wrong and evil". If you think all teenage boys that pressure their GF to have sex should be incarcerated - I have no problem with this. I support it.

SexxySadie
10-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Bambiblue:
Just because your experience was different than mine does not make you an expert on knowing everything about rape. Believe me there was no talking me into it..but I guess if you want to say that him yanking my clothes off, covering my mouth so I couldn't speak, prying my arms away from protecting myself, and leaving bruises on my neck then go ahead and think whatever you want..I am done justifying my experience on here.

Harlequin_Phoenix
10-19-2010, 09:37 PM
My heart goes out to you, Sadie.

SexxySadie
10-19-2010, 09:56 PM
ty all

jester214
10-19-2010, 10:42 PM
Did you want it: No

Did you vocalize you didn't want it: Yest

Rape.

That said "no" can become "yes", but those situations are unequivocal.

jack0177057
10-20-2010, 01:00 PM
Bambiblue:
Just because your experience was different than mine does not make you an expert on knowing everything about rape. Believe me there was no talking me into it..but I guess if you want to say that him yanking my clothes off, covering my mouth so I couldn't speak, prying my arms away from protecting myself, and leaving bruises on my neck then go ahead and think whatever you want..I am done justifying my experience on here.

SexxySadie -- That sick bastard belongs in jail. Again, I'm sorry if anything I said seemed insensitive... I hope you heal and I hope he goes to jail.

Elvia
10-20-2010, 03:59 PM
We aren't continually changing the definition of rape. Rape is defined as sex without consent. Therefore rape is committed when a girl is violently pulled off the street, when she is unconscious, when she says no and is coerced, when she is married and is threatened and when she is too young to know how to say no.

Yes, those are all examples of rape, but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about being pressured. If that comes in the form of a threat, then I'd agree that's rape. Someone simply pressuring you and saying "come on!" until you DO CONSENT, I would not say fits under the definition of rape.

Rape is sex without consent. I understand that women who have been violently raped feel that their experience is being downplayed when situations like this exist. But we, as women as a whole, should not disbelieve or even say that someone elses' experience isn't as valid as our own.

And as I've already said, this situation is certainly rape. But that does not mean any and all "pressure" to have sex constitutes rape. It's a terrible thing to do to someone, but I would not say being talked into consenting to something is the same as being forced into it.



My response in bold

SexxySadie
10-20-2010, 07:17 PM
Thanks Jack. The self esteem thing was a bit insensitive and wrong but I'm not upset with you. I appreciate your support.

bambiblue
10-20-2010, 08:32 PM
I just want you to know that I deeply apologize, I dont think I understood your post, much of it was confusing and I took it to mean something other than what you were trying to say. Again, I thought you were saying you made a mistake and acted out of weakness and slept with him... consentually after being talked into it.... I was not trying to undermine your experience or make you feel bad. Everyone's experience is different, and everyone reacts differently to situations. I hope you are able to talk to someone and get some some type of counseling or go to a support group to help you deal with what happened to you.

SexxySadie
10-20-2010, 10:25 PM
Thanks for apologizing. I guess it can get confusing when I didn't give away all the details. I am working on getting to see a group so hopefully it will help.

Avery90
10-20-2010, 11:48 PM
Its coercion or sexual assault in the least and is rape. This shit pisses me off. I was raped and abused several times (which most ppl dont believe):-[:'( and when i hear this it makes me want to hack off balls and dick and want to force them to deep throat their own and sew their mouth shut>:(>:(>:(so they choke on it!!!!!! Im sorry this happeded it makes me want to cry when i read this shit happening to other women.

laurcon
10-21-2010, 11:57 AM
So dude anally raped you and you're not going to the police? I don't get it.

I don't get how if you said to him "dude, I am not fucking into this and I do not want your cock in my asshole!" he takes that as foreplay? Why did you seriously not punch him in the face? I just can't wrap my brain around the situation, I must be a very different person.

I understand marital rape when a woman feels like she has no choice but to submit to her husband (b/c of kids, finances, society), but I don't see any outside pressure here, besides not wanting him to be mad at you for not doing it. Sounds like if he got violent with you, why didn't you get violent back? Were you really afraid for your life with this man?

I just don't believe women are that weak these days that we need to be protected from men talking us into having sex. And if you do think so, then do something about it and go to the police please. And obviously the support group is a great idea, I'm not saying you're not upset about what happened, as you should be. But next time you'll be stronger and first off won't put yourself in that situation where he even started to do anything, secondly, be able to fully express when you don't want to do something, so that it doesn't happen.

If he raped you, he needs to go to jail period. So go to the police already. You took pictures of your bruises I'm assuming. I can't imagine who would get anally raped and have bruises and not report it. It just seems careless for other people, like you don't care if it happens to someone else? Or do you not think he's a danger?

BananaPajama
10-21-2010, 12:44 PM
So dude anally raped you and you're not going to the police? I don't get it.

I don't get how if you said to him "dude, I am not fucking into this and I do not want your cock in my asshole!" he takes that as foreplay? Why did you seriously not punch him in the face? I just can't wrap my brain around the situation, I must be a very different person.

I understand marital rape when a woman feels like she has no choice but to submit to her husband (b/c of kids, finances, society), but I don't see any outside pressure here, besides not wanting him to be mad at you for not doing it. Sounds like if he got violent with you, why didn't you get violent back? Were you really afraid for your life with this man?

I just don't believe women are that weak these days that we need to be protected from men talking us into having sex. And if you do think so, then do something about it and go to the police please. And obviously the support group is a great idea, I'm not saying you're not upset about what happened, as you should be. But next time you'll be stronger and first off won't put yourself in that situation where he even started to do anything, secondly, be able to fully express when you don't want to do something, so that it doesn't happen.

If he raped you, he needs to go to jail period. So go to the police already. You took pictures of your bruises I'm assuming. I can't imagine who would get anally raped and have bruises and not report it. It just seems careless for other people, like you don't care if it happens to someone else? Or do you not think he's a danger?

Most rapists (even ones that are reported) don't go to jail.
A lot of victim blaming goes on. Like people asking "why did you put yourself in the position to be raped" "why were you wearing revealing clothing." Some victims just want to forget. There's many reasons why someone wouldn't report a rape.

Athenathefabulous
10-21-2010, 12:47 PM
^^she said she did fight back and punch him but he tore off her clothes.

why might she not go to the police? to play devils advocate here, she is posting on a support forum now and people are doubting whether or not she was raped. if she went to the police with this same story, even with the bruises, do you really think that they would do much? you have to remember this is compiled with the fact that society looks down on sex workers. we are a group of pro-sex worker sympathetic ears and even here, she is getting questioned. is the legal system going to be any more sympathetic?

i understand you think that she should go to the police. but honestly, the police are often so useless in things like this. especially a couple of days after the fact and because it is reported by a sex worker.

and also, there is the additional emotional stress of going to the police. what if the police are dismissive of the case for the aforementioned reasons? that might mentally do more harm.

but if you think you can prove it-- then yes, please go. this fucker deserves no mercy. you sound too sympathetic to him on here which i think is why some people might have doubted you. and if you dont think you have a case that the police will take seriously then i would try to find some other way to ostracize him from everyone you know so no other female friends go near him again.

best of luck. i am sorry this happened to you and i hope you are able to find peace.

laurcon
10-21-2010, 12:58 PM
Well I called the police on an ex that "raped" me before. I was young, 19, and mostly an idiot. We were drinking at a party, I was "passed out" in a room, except I wasn't really passed out. When he started touching me, I knew what he was doing, and I liked it. I pretended to be sleeping while he had sex with me. Then I guess just to be a bitch, I pretended to wake up in the middle and start screaming rape. I called 911 but then hung up, but obviously the police still showed up and it was a mess. I felt terrible because I wasn't really asleep, and he was like "we've done it like that before, I thought you liked it" which was true. So the whole thing was really fucked up, and obviously not the same thing as the OP AT ALL. Only sharing a situation to show that women aren't always helpless angels.

Trem
10-21-2010, 01:03 PM
A lot of victims don't go to the cops because rape is very very difficult to prove. It really comes down to he said/she said and that is going to favor the accused every time. That's why people say stuff like "don't put yourself in a position to be raped", it's not blaming the victim it is simple acceptance that prevention is a lot easier than conviction. The last thing a traumatized victim needs is to go to court just to have the whole world tell her she wasn't raped because there isn't enough evidence. How could she prove in a court of law that she did not give consent? bruises? not with a guy with whom she has a history of having rough sex. Semen? you are not trying to prove you had sex, you are trying to prove it was rape.

Trem
10-21-2010, 01:06 PM
Well I called the police on an ex that "raped" me before. I was young, 19, and mostly an idiot. We were drinking at a party, I was "passed out" in a room, except I wasn't really passed out. When he started touching me, I knew what he was doing, and I liked it. I pretended to be sleeping while he had sex with me. Then I guess just to be a bitch, I pretended to wake up in the middle and start screaming rape. I called 911 but then hung up, but obviously the police still showed up and it was a mess. I felt terrible because I wasn't really asleep, and he was like "we've done it like that before, I thought you liked it" which was true. So the whole thing was really fucked up, and obviously not the same thing as the OP AT ALL. Only sharing a situation to show that women aren't always helpless angels.

So uh, the guy didn't go to jail did he?

laurcon
10-21-2010, 01:09 PM
^ Haha nah, it was difficult thought to convince the police that he didn't really rape me and everything was fine, understandably. I'm so glad I'm not 19ish anymore!

But I really didn't mean to take away what the OP is going through, but I guess I am. Sorry for that, and I hope you feel better about things soon.

Elvia
10-21-2010, 01:12 PM
why might she not go to the police? to play devils advocate here, she is posting on a support forum now and people are doubting whether or not she was raped.

I agree with most of what you've said. But I'd just like to point out, some people had their doubts at the beginning precisely because SHE had her doubts. If you go to the police and say that you've had a sexual experience but you don't know if it was rape, obviously they're going to be somewhat at a loss as to how to procede as well. Reporting a crime is a bit different than saying you're not sure if a crime has been committed or if you should press charges or not. If she does decide to go to the police, she should probably be pretty clear in her own mind as to what happened before she tries to tell them what happened.

Of course, if someone is unsure, that doesn't mean they should necessarily do nothing. I'm sure there are professionals who can help a person to make sense of such traumatic experiences. Whether the police are the right ones to direct you to them or not, I have no idea.

bambiblue
10-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Alot of people that DO go to the police are revictimized and made to feel worse for saying something. I can totally understand why she didnt go to the police. Most times, it is a long dragged out legal prcess that a lot of times never brings about any justice. The only bad thing is that now he's free to do this again. For those of you doubting why she didnt turn him in...just imagine sitting on a witness stand in front of a crowded courtroom and ur abuser and reliving the rape over and over again...and being cross examined, blamed, judged, doubted and made to feel ashamed for ever saying something.

dlabtot
10-21-2010, 07:01 PM
I have no words of advice but only an e-hug and thank you for posting this... frankly I think every guy should hear a story like this before he's 14....

beckatron
10-22-2010, 05:51 AM
Its coercion or sexual assault in the least and is rape. This shit pisses me off. I was raped and abused several times (which most ppl dont believe):-[:'( and when i hear this it makes me want to hack off balls and dick and want to force them to deep throat their own and sew their mouth shut>:(>:(>:(so they choke on it!!!!!! Im sorry this happeded it makes me want to cry when i read this shit happening to other women.
I'm so sorry this happened to you Avery.

laurcon
10-22-2010, 09:30 AM
Alot of people that DO go to the police are revictimized and made to feel worse for saying something. I can totally understand why she didnt go to the police. Most times, it is a long dragged out legal prcess that a lot of times never brings about any justice. The only bad thing is that now he's free to do this again. For those of you doubting why she didnt turn him in...just imagine sitting on a witness stand in front of a crowded courtroom and ur abuser and reliving the rape over and over again...and being cross examined, blamed, judged, doubted and made to feel ashamed for ever saying something.

Hmm I guess I'm some sort of freak because no one else in the world can make me feel anyway that I don't feel. So that's why it seems simply logical to me that if you believe you were anally raped, to bring the man to justice to protect others. But I def do understand that not everyone is at that point.

I just wonder if she's gonna hang out with the guy again.

Optimist
10-22-2010, 12:17 PM
^^^^^^^^Are you here to support her or play passive aggressive games with her? First you attack her for not going to the cops then relate your long bizarre tale of setting up a guy and fantasize that there are plenty of girls who aren't angels just like you weren't. WTF? You know nothing of "bringing justice" to others just playing games to get people jammed up with the cops for your amusement. Why are you even still posting??

Mr Hyde
10-22-2010, 12:44 PM
Bambiblue:
Just because your experience was different than mine does not make you an expert on knowing everything about rape. Believe me there was no talking me into it..but I guess if you want to say that him yanking my clothes off, covering my mouth so I couldn't speak, prying my arms away from protecting myself, and leaving bruises on my neck then go ahead and think whatever you want..I am done justifying my experience on here.

You didn't say this in your initial post, and subsequent posts didn't really bring out this level of detail.

Based solely on what you said in your initial post, that does not sound like rape but more like confused coercion. You said several things that indicated that you put up some sort of initial "no" but then acquiesced...and then saying that you had an orgasm...rape is a violent, horrifying crime and I can't imagine someone having an orgasm while they are being raped.

Now that I will bring down the wrath of 90% of this board,...I have to add...HOWEVER, if you add the details above in (yanking your clothes off...does that mean you resisted him yanking them off?), covering your mouth, prying your arms away, leaving bruises), then I can see the possibility.

As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys. Was what this guy did right? No, it doesn't sound like it...but I would like to get the fly-on-the-wall's POV of this encounter to see exactly what happened here. Every story has a he said-she said component to it.

ALL THAT SAID....the OP's emotional state appears fragile over this, and if the means are available to you to do so, I would recommend seeing a counselor about this. I'm sorry that you're feeling the way that you are. I hope you recover.

Christany
10-22-2010, 01:23 PM
You didn't say this in your initial post, and subsequent posts didn't really bring out this level of detail.

Based solely on what you said in your initial post, that does not sound like rape but more like confused coercion. You said several things that indicated that you put up some sort of initial "no" but then acquiesced...and then saying that you had an orgasm...rape is a violent, horrifying crime and I can't imagine someone having an orgasm while they are being raped.

Now that I will bring down the wrath of 90% of this board,...I have to add...HOWEVER, if you add the details above in (yanking your clothes off...does that mean you resisted him yanking them off?), covering your mouth, prying your arms away, leaving bruises), then I can see the possibility.

As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys. Was what this guy did right? No, it doesn't sound like it...but I would like to get the fly-on-the-wall's POV of this encounter to see exactly what happened here. Every story has a he said-she said component to it.

ALL THAT SAID....the OP's emotional state appears fragile over this, and if the means are available to you to do so, I would recommend seeing a counselor about this. I'm sorry that you're feeling the way that you are. I hope you recover.

I'm not going to put any wrath out on you, but I just wanted to make some clarification about the issue of orgasm. It is possible due to the physical stimulation and the reflex biological response. Thus, it becomes even more confusing for the victim, and they might start to internalize the blame because of a physical response they could not control. I think this was discussed in previous threads in years past.

Elvia
10-22-2010, 02:49 PM
As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys.

It really confuses me when guys say this. I mean, let's imagine a scenario in which this is happening. I imagine a man and a woman together, he's touching her, maybe talking to her trying to coerce her into having sex, and she says "no." Why doesn't a guy back off right then when he hears the word "no?" Why the hell is he continuing? It just seems obvious to me that if I were to feel someone up or invite them to have sex with me and they said "No" or "Stop" that I should...well...STOP. Really, if you continue after that point, you've already committed sexual assault at that point by refusing to stop when someone tells you to stop. Someone says No, you stop. Follow this simple rule and there should be no "confusion".

Athenathefabulous
10-22-2010, 02:55 PM
As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys. Was what this guy did right? No, it doesn't sound like it...but I would like to get the fly-on-the-wall's POV of this encounter to see exactly what happened here. Every story has a he said-she said component to it.


honestly, its better to turn down and not fuck a girl who has this attitude than it is to "mistakenly" "get confused" and fuck a girl who you wrongly believe has this attitude.

if you have a girl into the rape fetish stuff thats fine, get a safety word and have at it. but most girls dont fit into this and its better to assume they dont fit into this category than to assume they do and fuck them for the sake of getting your dick wet then find out you actually raped them and left them with a lifetime of mental trauma.

camille27
10-22-2010, 04:14 PM
let's just assume that my "no" always means "no" and not bother with if i'm playing mind games.
a lot of "sometimes, women say no when they mean yes" stems from the female "NO" constantly being ignored anyway. so, let's get classy in 2010 agree that no means MOTHERFUCKING NO.

words are important.




As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys. Was what this guy did right? No, it doesn't sound like it...but I would like to get the fly-on-the-wall's POV of this encounter to see exactly what happened here. Every story has a he said-she said component to it.

Trem
10-22-2010, 04:19 PM
As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys.

You know in 32 years i've never had a single girl say no then go "wait wait, i meant YES" when i stopped. Not have i ever heard of it happening to anyone else.

jack0177057
10-22-2010, 05:14 PM
STOP DEBATING ON THIS THREAD.

I started a new thread - Rape Debate - on Life Support to continue this debate.

SexxySadie asked for support and sympathy. Let's take the debate to a another thread...

JayATee
10-22-2010, 05:36 PM
You didn't say this in your initial post, and subsequent posts didn't really bring out this level of detail.

Based solely on what you said in your initial post, that does not sound like rape but more like confused coercion. You said several things that indicated that you put up some sort of initial "no" but then acquiesced...and then saying that you had an orgasm...rape is a violent, horrifying crime and I can't imagine someone having an orgasm while they are being raped.

Now that I will bring down the wrath of 90% of this board,...I have to add...HOWEVER, if you add the details above in (yanking your clothes off...does that mean you resisted him yanking them off?), covering your mouth, prying your arms away, leaving bruises), then I can see the possibility.

As far as the broader debate about coercion vs rape...some of you are being disingenuous with that. MANY MANY women play the game of "no, no, no....TAKE ME NOW" and that shit is confusing for guys. Was what this guy did right? No, it doesn't sound like it...but I would like to get the fly-on-the-wall's POV of this encounter to see exactly what happened here. Every story has a he said-she said component to it.

ALL THAT SAID....the OP's emotional state appears fragile over this, and if the means are available to you to do so, I would recommend seeing a counselor about this. I'm sorry that you're feeling the way that you are. I hope you recover.

Thank god no one defines rape based on your fucked up idea of what it is. You've obviously never been raped. It's not always violent and there are plenty of documented experiences that say that people have orgasmed while being raped. The mere fact that you don't know this makes me question your very presence in this thread. On behalf of the OP, myself and rape victims everywhere, HOW DARE YOU.

If she said no it should've stopped then and there. Confused coercion??? Are you fucking kidding?! NO MEANS NO. NO MEANS STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND TAKE YOUR FUCKING HANDS OFF ME - NOW. NO MEANS I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

No leaves no room for debate. It means no confusion. It's very clear. NO. FFS I can't believe this is still something to argue over.

To the OP, I've been there. Any help you can get, friends, family, professional, seek it out. Don't let this consume you. Don't blame yourself, it's not your fault and you didn't do anything wrong. There's support (though this thread sucks for it and I'm sorry for that) and help for you out there. Please talk to someone, and if you can find the strength (I was too young and scared and I regret it every day) file charges. No one ever has the right to not listen when you say no and mean it honey. ::hugs::

Mr Hyde
10-22-2010, 07:44 PM
It really confuses me when guys say this. I mean, let's imagine a scenario in which this is happening. I imagine a man and a woman together, he's touching her, maybe talking to her trying to coerce her into having sex, and she says "no." Why doesn't a guy back off right then when he hears the word "no?" Why the hell is he continuing? It just seems obvious to me that if I were to feel someone up or invite them to have sex with me and they said "No" or "Stop" that I should...well...STOP. Really, if you continue after that point, you've already committed sexual assault at that point by refusing to stop when someone tells you to stop. Someone says No, you stop. Follow this simple rule and there should be no "confusion".

Because that shit happens A LOT.

You'll be getting hot and heavy with a girl who starts saying "no, I shouldn't..." and then grabs your cock and starts kissing you harder.

Now, did that happen in this case? No, it doesn't sound like it...but the OP herself says that the way this whole thing happened, that their foreplay had included things like it in the past.

Should he have stopped? Probably, but should she have said "NO STOP RIGHT NOW MOTHERFUCKER"...yes, and unless she made it unequivocally obvious that she wasn't down for this, there is ambiguity here.

And I knew I'd get a Jay A Tee-esque reaction about my response. I almost didn't post it because the thought police are ready to jump down anyone's throat who doesn't just roll over for any accusation of rape...bambiblue is a prime example of the groupthink that dominates this board on this subject. For you, Jay, I am NOT saying she wasn't raped. I'm saying there is room for question here about its veracity. That said, the OP sounds like she needs help and I sympathize with her.

Christany
10-22-2010, 07:58 PM
Now, did that happen in this case? No, it doesn't sound like it...but the OP herself says that the way this whole thing happened, that their foreplay had included things like it in the past.

It needs to be clarified that in this case, the relationship had recently dissolved and they were no longer together. This manner of his sexual aggression should have ceased with that also.



Should he have stopped? Probably, but should she have said "NO STOP RIGHT NOW MOTHERFUCKER"...yes, and unless she made it unequivocally obvious that she wasn't down for this, there is ambiguity here.


I'm not sure if you realize this, but this is actually a blaming statement, which in effect might make her feel responsible for what what happened to her. This is not the appropriate way to speak to someone who is trying to sort out their feelings about what has just happened. She came to this board because she is confused and wanted to try and sort it out. This is very normal. So if it didn't come out clearly to you in her initial post, that is because these situations are confusing to whom it has happened to. Don't bash her for that. There are already so many other people who will be attempting to chastise her for what she "should have done."



I'm saying there is room for question here about its veracity. That said, the OP sounds like she needs help and I sympathize with her.

This is also not appropriate.

Harlequin_Phoenix
10-22-2010, 08:29 PM
Mr Hyde (and others), you are arguing about what you think the definition of rape should be, not what it is. There are a number of posts on here by girls who actually know what they're talking about, and they say that this situation is unequivocally rape, and everything I have ever been taught by sex ed etc. affirms their opinions. Stop trying to argue that it isn't. All you're doing is demonstrating your own ignorance.

Now, if you want to argue that the definition should be different, feel free. I support and encourage that, even if I don't necessarily agree with your opinions about it (although, thanks to Jack for creating another thread in which to do so).

Mr Hyde
10-22-2010, 08:44 PM
Harlequin, let me relate a story to you about an incident in my sexual past.

When I was 20, I met a girl at a bar. She was 19. We hit it off, and eventually both left together in her car after the bar that we were at closed. We went to a convenience store and managed to get a 12 pack before they closed off alcohol sales. We got drunk, parked somewhere and started getting down and dirty in her car. I got her shirt off, and then she pushed me away and said "No...no...I can't"...so I pulled back. Then she got on top of me in the passenger seat and started grinding on me and kissing me, so we went back at it...got her bra off...and she sort of jumps off me back in to the driver's seat and says "no...stop...no"...so I stopped. Then she looks at me and starts playing with herself, so I start kissing her and she grabs me and pulls me over, sort of on her, and eventually we end up in the back seat with me on top of her, clothes completely off at this point, and she says "NO....no...(whimper)" so I stop a third time, and then she starts stroking my dick and moving like she wants me back on her, and so I get back on her and we start fucking, and go at it.

Now....did I rape her?

Christany
10-22-2010, 09:03 PM
Now....did I rape her?

Dude, take a hint already. This not the thread to address your personal issues in.

SexxySadie
10-22-2010, 09:05 PM
I appreciate all the support, kind words etc..HOWEVER, I posted this hoping to feel relief or encouragement because I was confused at the time and I just really needed to get it out. Instead I come back to this thread and feel angry and upset that it has turned into a damn debate and people blaming me. Like I said before: I DID NOT POST EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE ITS EXTREMELY PERSONAL, HARD TO THINK ABOUT AND IS JUST WAY TMI!! So really when people are saying "oh well at first it sounded like it might have been coercion but then when you posted more it sounded like there might be more to it" I think "wtf did you think I could do after that happened? Write a novel without any typos and win a prize for it? NO I was shaken and upset my first post was more of a "oh fuck, oh fuck this just happened."
I didn't go to the cops because all the evidence was washed down the drain, I don't want anyone knowing about this except my best friend in CA, its classic he said she said so my chances of a conviction are slim, I don't want my face in the paper because I am a sex worker and people would probably recognize me etc etc..

Please, if you have more to debate take it to another thread.

laurcon
10-22-2010, 09:48 PM
I appreciate all the support, kind words etc..HOWEVER, I posted this hoping to feel relief or encouragement because I was confused at the time and I just really needed to get it out. Instead I come back to this thread and feel angry and upset that it has turned into a damn debate and people blaming me. Like I said before: I DID NOT POST EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE ITS EXTREMELY PERSONAL, HARD TO THINK ABOUT AND IS JUST WAY TMI!! So really when people are saying "oh well at first it sounded like it might have been coercion but then when you posted more it sounded like there might be more to it" I think "wtf did you think I could do after that happened? Write a novel without any typos and win a prize for it? NO I was shaken and upset my first post was more of a "oh fuck, oh fuck this just happened."
I didn't go to the cops because all the evidence was washed down the drain, I don't want anyone knowing about this except my best friend in CA, its classic he said she said so my chances of a conviction are slim, I don't want my face in the paper because I am a sex worker and people would probably recognize me etc etc..

Please, if you have more to debate take it to another thread.

I am very sorry for my previous posts in this thread. You are completely right, and have every way to feel just as you do, and I don't have any right to be anything but supportive, or nothing. It's completely my issue, and I did discuss this with my therapist today. Everyone has their own path and I just should not have said anything.

I'm sorry I brought any of my own shit into your thread Sadie. Good luck with dealing with everything, you seem to be headed in the right direction by getting support. Please don't let people like me or whomever else distract you one bit, you are really strong and your feelings are valid and important.

laurcon
10-22-2010, 09:50 PM
^^^^^^^^Are you here to support her or play passive aggressive games with her? First you attack her for not going to the cops then relate your long bizarre tale of setting up a guy and fantasize that there are plenty of girls who aren't angels just like you weren't. WTF? You know nothing of "bringing justice" to others just playing games to get people jammed up with the cops for your amusement. Why are you even still posting??

That was 9yrs and lots of therapy ago. I realize what I did was completely wrong, doesn't mean I'm the only woman in the world that ever did anything like that, or slept with an ex when she didn't really want to.

However you are completely right in that I am posting like a psycho and my story has nothing to do with Sadie's and shouldn't have been in this thread at all. Thanks for bringing this up.

eagle2
10-22-2010, 09:59 PM
I didn't go to the cops because all the evidence was washed down the drain, I don't want anyone knowing about this except my best friend in CA, its classic he said she said so my chances of a conviction are slim, I don't want my face in the paper because I am a sex worker and people would probably recognize me etc etc..

Please, if you have more to debate take it to another thread.

Papers don't post the faces of rape victims. In general, papers keep the names of rape victims confidential.

SexxySadie
10-22-2010, 11:31 PM
^^thats true, having a blonde moment..

JayATee
10-23-2010, 12:40 AM
Because that shit happens A LOT.

You'll be getting hot and heavy with a girl who starts saying "no, I shouldn't..." and then grabs your cock and starts kissing you harder.

Now, did that happen in this case? No, it doesn't sound like it...but the OP herself says that the way this whole thing happened, that their foreplay had included things like it in the past.

Should he have stopped? Probably, but should she have said "NO STOP RIGHT NOW MOTHERFUCKER"...yes, and unless she made it unequivocally obvious that she wasn't down for this, there is ambiguity here.

And I knew I'd get a Jay A Tee-esque reaction about my response. I almost didn't post it because the thought police are ready to jump down anyone's throat who doesn't just roll over for any accusation of rape...bambiblue is a prime example of the groupthink that dominates this board on this subject. For you, Jay, I am NOT saying she wasn't raped. I'm saying there is room for question here about its veracity. That said, the OP sounds like she needs help and I sympathize with her.

I'm completely appalled I'm even reading this. You know who needs to stop? You do. There is no room for question. The instant the word no was even uttered IT SHOULD HAVE STOPPED. No probably about it.

Now I'm stopping because you're obviously too thick headed to understand and I can only hope that someday you're put in your place for it, however, the OP is here for support and this isn't helping.

Mr Hyde
10-23-2010, 09:32 AM
I'm completely appalled I'm even reading this. You know who needs to stop? You do. There is no room for question. The instant the word no was even uttered IT SHOULD HAVE STOPPED. No probably about it.

Now I'm stopping because you're obviously too thick headed to understand and I can only hope that someday you're put in your place for it, however, the OP is here for support and this isn't helping.

Give me a break. I'll take this up with you in the other thread, since this is no longer about her.

KaylaM
10-23-2010, 01:33 PM
^^^^^^^^Are you here to support her or play passive aggressive games with her? First you attack her for not going to the cops then relate your long bizarre tale of setting up a guy and fantasize that there are plenty of girls who aren't angels just like you weren't. WTF? You know nothing of "bringing justice" to others just playing games to get people jammed up with the cops for your amusement. Why are you even still posting??

Agreed! I was a bit confused there ..

flickad
10-23-2010, 07:16 PM
like I said... anyone who has ever BEEN raped doesnt decide half way through that she should just go along with it and enjoy it... iM SORRY but if you willfully take your clothes off... willfully "do things that we used to do" and willfully hug and talk with someone afterwards...TO ME... that doesnt sound like rape... sounds more like she did something that AFTERWARDS she didnt feel too good about... Unfortunatelt too may people cry rape who werent and the people who actually are raped are discredited as a result... I personally was victimized so I think I know what RAPE IS.. this TO ME..doesnt sound like rape. No means no... I agree but everything she posted after that doesnt sound like rape... they even discussed getting a condom... Anyway.. move along... I am entitled to my opinion.

I have been raped in a situation not unlike the OP's and did decide to go along with it halfway through because I felt he'd wrecked my life already anyway and there was no point fighting it anymore. it was also physically quite pleasurable, but was a very different story mentally.

Bottom line: rape is rape. Every victim's experience is different and having a non-stereotyped experience doesn't make it not rape. Penetration without consent is penetration without consent however you cut it.