View Full Version : Immigration rant no. 137
jester214
10-18-2010, 10:04 PM
In Arizona, a lot of businesses are hurting because many immigrants left the state, so most of their customers are gone.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/22/nation/la-na-immigration-phoenix-20100723
Further illustration of the problem.
But if you don't think a lot of them are sending some or all of the money home...
eagle2
10-18-2010, 10:49 PM
I'm sure a good number of them send some of the money home. They can't send it all home because they need food and a place to sleep.
nelly33
10-18-2010, 10:55 PM
There was even a book being passed around various countries (In Asia I think) called how to get welfare in America (or a related name).
This sounds kind of like an urban legend... link to source?
I think her case and many others are legit. The case I posted is not and that woman needs to pay for her hospital. If that sounds cruel, I've known people who got hit with medical bills yet we let people like her off the hook. I'm not sure what you mean about the Republican Party since I don't support them. I used to be a Democrat and agree with them on social issues, but not money issues.
If you agree with democrats on social issues, where do you think the money for the social programs come from? I think if it were possible to have the democratic social policies with republican taxes, most of us would choose that side.
Also, hospitals are required to treat anybody that comes through the door, payment possible or not; I don't think that treating a person with absolutely no money because they can't pay is "letting them off the hook." They are still dirt poor and in bad health, they just haven't been let to die in the street. And just because you know somebody that has been wronged does not make it the rule... it may be the exception. The people you know will be "let off the hook" as well if they become poverty stricken. There is no advantage to not being able to pay bills.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:02 AM
it is an absurd argument when people use this "my great grand parents came here from italy and they did it legally" rationale. it is an extremely rare thing for an immigrant to not do SOMETHING illegal, whether it be bribing someone, changing a birthdate on a document to increase the odds of getting a visa, lying about something on an application, whatever.
it is VERY difficult to get into the united states. the likelihood for entry decreases with age, skin darkness, socioeconomic status, education level...so again, there are far too many people who are ranting and raving about doing shit the "legal" way when they don't know the obstructions in place that make the legal way nearly impossible for so many people.
and if you really don't see the bigotry inherent to "arizona is starting to look like mexico", then i don't know what to tell you. if you do not want to live in close proximity to mexicans, perhaps you should not live so close to the mexican border.
and why should i have to move? i haven't done anything wrong.if i wanted to go to another country i would never have the balls to do it illegally. period. have you ever been to arizona?? phoenix? glendale? peoria? surprise? probably not. doesn't sound like you have. i really have to question the character of these people when they are so willing to break such huge laws. and last time i checked identity theft is a HUGE felony. this is a BIG problem here whether people want to realize it or not. and btw I WAS BORN HERE LEGALLY.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:12 AM
yes, i watched it.
i suppose you would rather the doctors let her bleed out on the ground outside of the hospital? or maybe waited for the mother and baby to die from complications? if you cannot see the obvious reason why she was given a free c-section courtesy of u.s. taxpayers, then i don't know what to tell you.
the fact is, your tax dollars go to lots of shit. if you knew about all the things that tax money is used for, you would probably be very unhappy. but you are choosing an easy scapegoat for your hostility.
your tax dollars provide rapists in prison with medical care, wifi internet access, and three meals a day, but a pregnant woman who just crossed a river should be turned away from a hospital? please.
again. compassion. a lovely trait to possess.
deleiver the baby and send the baby, mother and hospital bill back to mexico. k thanks.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:18 AM
how many "mooch" off the system? where are you getting your information from? what are the numbers of undocumented immigrants who are "mooching"? because there are very few progressive countries in which a hospital will turn ANYONE away because of their inability to pay, whether it's for a childbirth, a papercut, a heart attack, whatever.
so what are the welfare systems that mexican immigrants are draining? public education? public education has been failing for decades. healthcare? this is provided in any humane society despite one's ability to pay. any stable country you go to, no doctor will let you die because you cannot pay. food subsidies? so people should starve? and then they will end up in the emergency room anyway? show the significant drain that mexican immigrants are placing on society. jobs? that was the goal of nafta! u.s. citizens want cheap everything and then they get shocked when jobs have to go to non-us citizens in order to keep costs low.
so where is the drain on the "system"? your tax dollars are going mostly to build highways and to fund weapon research for present and future wars, not to pregnant mexican women.
even if you kicked every undocumented immigrant out of the united states, the public education system would still be a trainwreck, the healthcare system would still me a mess, government aid would still be ineffective. that is the problem with a scapegoat. you are blaming something that is not the cause for the problem. it is so common during a bad economy to blame an easy target for everything. hitler did this. he was extremely successful at getting rid of his problem. isn't this what the other poster was suggesting? rounding up all of "them", jailing anyone who tried to protect "them", getting "them" out of our country?
that is not even a valid arguement. nobody is trying to mustard gas or kill the illegal aliens. do you know of any other country that just allows illegal immigrants to pour over their borders all day every day?? if you do please share. i'm dying to hear this. really. i'll wait....
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:24 AM
and truth be told Camille; this has been a very long going problem here. the sad thing is that yes, it did take the shitty state of the current economy for people outside of az, tx, and ca to start noticing that something does need to be done. now i will say this as everyone pretty much knows where i stand when it comes to the topic of illegal immigration; our policy on how foreigners become citizens here definitely DOES need a HUGE makeover. but that does not make it OK for people to cross into a foreign country illegally and they should be aware of the possible consequences that can happen.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:46 AM
If it all just comes down to a buck, do you think there are ways to save a buck that don't involve picking on desperately poor immigrants and their babies? If I'm not mistaken, didn't Trillions just disappear due to Wall Street shenanigans, and an unnecessary war? This is small potatoes. Welcoming immigrants and being generous is what the US is known for. That's a good thing to be known for....as opposed to making war, and corporate welfare. Right?
ETA: btw, every nickle you gift these people gets spent right there in your community. You all benefit indirectly from it in a thousand unseen ways.
while i do agree with this to a certain extent; we the people can not support these illegal aliens while we can barely support our selves with our 9.7% unemployment rate in arizona! and yes we are a country that is founded on being welcoming to immigrants; legal ones though. not illegal ones that come here and steal identities and milk welfare and pop out 20 kids and sell drugs out of their section 8 houses! mkay?
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:56 AM
In Arizona, a lot of businesses are hurting because many immigrants left the state, so most of their customers are gone.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/22/nation/la-na-immigration-phoenix-20100723
it balances itself out when i don't have to pay to feed, educate, clothe, house, insure, and jail them.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 04:59 AM
it's just fabulous how most of the people that are pro illegal immigration are from way up fucking north and most have never even been to az, tx, ca or even mexico. yeah i said it.
princessjas
10-19-2010, 05:00 AM
^^The multiquote button is right beside the quote button. Click it and that little box will turn pink, click it on every post you want to quote, but on the last one click the quote button.....this will add them all in one post, so you don't have to post like 6 different times.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 05:01 AM
i am aware of this. i was responding as i was reading. normally i would not post like this but holy jeebus this topic gets my blood boiling.
KS_Stevia
10-19-2010, 05:02 AM
I have no problem with the disabled or the spouses and kids getting it. My big issue is people who never paid in like the Soviet couple. I know most immigrants aren't a drain, but I'd like to see a system where those who are only coming for the welfare deported. There was even a book being passed around various countries (In Asia I think) called how to get welfare in America (or a related name). When people come to make a better life I welcome them. In fact I worked in ESL and enjoyed meeting immigrants. My issue is strictly a money one and it's across the board. I don't want to pay for American freeloaders either.
Did you read the link I sent you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_May_Fuller
She paid in $24 buck and got $24,000 from social security. Also, "old soviet people" aren't going to receive full social security pension benefits, there is no way they can. Do you know what they qualified for? Are you sure they didn't have any other money put away or help from their family? Also, many religious organizations helped emmigrating Soviets. They helped our family and we paid them back. Seriously, look at your own social security statements, and look at the social security disability portion on the left side, you receive the booklet annually.
Tell me, can you live on that stipend? NO ONE comes here for the "welfare" this is just ridiculous. It costs way more to live in the US than in a third world country. And people from those countries tend to have familial and community support to make up for lack of resources. People come here for opportunity and to make money. No one gives a shit about patriotism, even more americans.
People care about their families and loved ones and will do what it takes for them to survive, then prosper. This is human nature and you cannot fight it or stop it with borders.
Also, re: Melonie's statistics. LA County is going to be skewed in its results due to having probably the highest Mexican/Hispanic population in the US. And the Mexican culture and neighborhoods in LA go back hundreds of years with a very rich history and heritage. Last part is sort of irrelevant, I guess. Point is, I wouldn't use LA County's stats to prove anything.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 05:10 AM
ida may fuller was a legal u.s. citizen and resident born in the u.s. and worked a job that paid into payroll taxes not some under the table job. there is a difference between her and the illegal immigrant problem. the two are not comparable.
Ida May Fuller (September 6, 1874 – January 1975) was the first American to receive a monthly benefit Social Security check. She received the check, amounting to $22.54, on January 31, 1940.
Fuller was born on a farm outside Ludlow, Vermont. She spent most of her life in Ludlow, working as a legal secretary, but lived with her niece in Brattleboro, Vermont, during her last eight years. She retired in 1939, having paid just three years of payroll taxes. She received monthly Social Security checks until her death in 1975 at age 100. By the time of her death, Fuller had collected $22,888.92 from Social Security monthly benefits, compared to her contributions of $24.75 to the system.
and again she was the first person to ever start paying into it where most of these illegal immigrants don't pay a penny into it.
KaylaM
10-19-2010, 05:14 AM
Lol... Ok you know how HARD it is to become a citizen of the United States? I came here in 96 meaning I've been here since 96 AND I am still NOT a citizen of the united states. My family and I came her on a visitation visa and overstayed and became "Out of Status".. When I turned 18 I took measures to Adjust my status. What those measures are? I will not say. To adjust your status in America after an expired visa.. You have to pay $1400 to USCIS to file your paperwork. The $1400 is ONLY to file.. and to file yourself. Some people pay up to $4000 to a lawyer to do this for them but I decided to do it myself.
After you file your docs, a few weeks later they send you a letter for fingerprinting (to make sure you're not a criminal amongst other things) 3 months later they send you a social security card that should be used for WORK ONLY and in that time you will also get a travel stamp (which allows you to travel to your home country for emergencies but did I use my stamp? Hell no I was too scared they wouldn't let me back in the country)
After another 3 months they call you for interview and ask you a series of questions and notifiy you if you passed interview or not. I know people that have been arrested and deported right after this interview. If you pass they give you a greencard if you don't pass you can file again OR they deport you depending on WHY you failed interview.
ALOT of you don't know that during this process they require you to get a physical. If you are HIV positive or have any deadly disease they deport you RIGHT AWAY. America does NOT play about having sick immigrants in their country.
Anyways, Today I am a green card holder/Legal Resident of this country. In a few years I will be able to file for citizenship but will I? Hell no. I just want you all to know that to become an american citizen is NOT easy. Some of you keep saying it is easy and don't even know the process. IT IS A VERY RIGOROUS PROCESS...
However, Obtaining REAL (fake) documents is EASY! I know 3 guys off the top of my head that MAKE social security cards for a living. I also know 2 ladies at my local dmv that issues drivers license to illegals. Oooh and mind you my dad is a diplomat and has connections around the world. I am sure a birth certificate from the Virgin Islands is VERY easy to obtain..... ;) Hey I am just stating facts here.
Alot of you Americans need to READ up on the laws. You guys really DO NOT know what is going on in this country but can make good argument.
Just to back up what I have just said. This is how I adjusted my status in the States .
KS_Stevia
10-19-2010, 05:23 AM
and yes we are a country that is founded on being welcoming to immigrants; legal ones though. not illegal ones that come here and steal identities and milk welfare and pop out 20 kids and sell drugs out of their section 8 houses! mkay?
Good majority of the people who do this are actually legal citizens born here into a multi-generational culture of poverty and despair.
Have you ever owned a rental property and rented it to illegals? They are the BEST tenants you will ever have. Try renting to a section 8 person. They trash their properties because they do not care, they have no value for hard work.
KaylaM
10-19-2010, 05:25 AM
^ Because they don't want trouble.. of course
KS_Stevia
10-19-2010, 05:25 AM
ida may fuller was a legal u.s. citizen and resident born in the u.s. and worked a job that paid into payroll taxes not some under the table job. there is a difference between her and the illegal immigrant problem. the two are not comparable.
Ida May Fuller (September 6, 1874 – January 1975) was the first American to receive a monthly benefit Social Security check. She received the check, amounting to $22.54, on January 31, 1940.
Fuller was born on a farm outside Ludlow, Vermont. She spent most of her life in Ludlow, working as a legal secretary, but lived with her niece in Brattleboro, Vermont, during her last eight years. She retired in 1939, having paid just three years of payroll taxes. She received monthly Social Security checks until her death in 1975 at age 100. By the time of her death, Fuller had collected $22,888.92 from Social Security monthly benefits, compared to her contributions of $24.75 to the system.
and again she was the first person to ever start paying into it where most of these illegal immigrants don't pay a penny into it.
Of course. I was countering Kelly's argument that only those who paid into SS should receive it.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 05:27 AM
kayla, i get what you're saying and i never said that the legal way of getting citizenship is easy; not actually saying that you said i did but i have read this whole thread and i honestly don't remember anyone actually saying that it was "easy" unless i missed something. none the less you yourself are not out there stealing identities of innocent also hard working people and you your self are hard working and paying taxes and your fair share into the pool so kudos to you. just because the system is tough though does not make it right or ok or fair to the taxpayers for all these ridiculous amounts of undocumented people pouring over our borders. i have several immigrant friends from different parts of the world who came here legally and while they said it was not 'easy' it was worth it because they don't have to constantly look over their shoulder and worry about immigration picking them up. nothing in life that is worth having is ever easy to get.
Kitten Foster
10-19-2010, 05:30 AM
Good majority of the people who do this are actually legal citizens born here into a multi-generational culture of poverty and despair.
Have you ever owned a rental property and rented it to illegals? They are the BEST tenants you will ever have. Try renting to a section 8 person. They trash their properties because they do not care, they have no value for hard work.
um again; most of the illegal immigrants out here ARE on section 8 housing and DO trash their housing. i have lived in several apartment complexes FULL of them. now i'm in a house and most of my neighbors are on section 8 and are still illegal as fuck and trashing their houses and the neighborhood. i dont even want to take my niece to the park here because SR-13 has tagged it all up with their b.s. and they are all over in these parts.
KaylaM
10-19-2010, 05:51 AM
See this was the reason why I made the post I made. Most Illegals don't live like illegals. They live like US citizens. They have fake REAL ids (like you said kitten) they have REAL fake ss cards. Have you ever met an illegal Nigerian? and Don't say there are not alot of illegal nigerians because there are. They're not living in Section 8. They will never use government assistance because they are scared of being traced. How do I know? I've been there. They live pretty lavish lifestyles if not, normal lifestyles just like Americans. In fact before 9/11 fake documents were easy to make/come by now that it's harder due to the strict laws now put in place. Illegal immigration hasn't stopped .. They haven't ran out of ideas. They're getting smarter. Every time the US adds a new law they find a way around it.
Oh and just FYI, Just to be clear on where I stand on this. I feel the US should secure it's boarders. I think mexicans should go through the same process I went through to become legal here. I don't think illegal immigrants should be deported. They should be given a chance.. everyone deserves a chance. The US should grant amnesty to those immigrants that have completed high school or obtained a GED, disease free and have a clean criminal record. I thought Obama was going to do this... but I guess he was all talk. ::)
bem401
10-19-2010, 05:51 AM
This may not go over too well but here goes. Where does it say we owe US citizenship to anyone, no matter where they are from? If you sneak in, you you should be sent back to where you came from, no matter where that is, and told to come back and do it legally.
I'm going to the movies today (gonna see Red). Should I just sneak by the cashier and ushers and see if it works? If I get caught, should I argue that I should be allowed to stay?
Immigrants are welcome but they have to enter legally. No exceptions. If you make exceptions, you encourage more illegal immigration.
KaylaM
10-19-2010, 05:55 AM
and.. I am starting to notice that when you all speak on illegal immigration .. it's mexicans you are referring to. Do you understand that there are OTHER illegal nationalities here? They don't sneak in. Like Nigerians can't swim here.. can they? Their status expire and just stick around...
The U.S have a bigger fish to fry...It's not just illegal mexicans they are dealing with. All the money this country has and the border isn't secured? There is something wrong.
rickdugan
10-19-2010, 05:59 AM
Wow, just wow.
Wanna' know the quickest way to ensure that illegal immigrants pay taxes? Make them legal. Most immigrants I know would be thrilled to be in the system and would have no problem in paying taxes.
But of course the people who who claim that they oppose illegal immigration because of the resource drain don't really want this either, because the truth is that they just don't want immigrants here at all.
And for those rocket scientists that just don't want immigration period, riddle me this: who will be working and paying Social Security taxes when all of those Gen X'ers hit retirement? In case anyone hasn't noticed, the nation's population is getting older and people born here are not reproducing at a very fast rate. We are eventually going to need some new blood from somewhere if we are going to pay for the swell of retirees that will be collecting checks in the next 10 years.
Also, if we kick the immigrants out, who will do the jobs that they currently do? Not the little sissies and weak minded children that many families are raising here in the U.S. today. Hell, it is actually amazing to me when I see kids that would rather earn $8 per hour ringing a register than earn $12-16 per hour in a slaughterhouse or fish plant. Never mind washing dishes, cleaning offices and factories, etc. I would suggest renting "A Day Without a Mexican" - it is a fascinating movie.
The unemployment rates are high now, but wait and see what happens when all of these old folks hit retirement, but still need a variety of services.
bem401
10-19-2010, 06:24 AM
Wow, just wow.
Wanna' know the quickest way to ensure that illegal immigrants pay taxes? Make them legal. Most immigrants I know would be thrilled to be in the system and would have no problem in paying taxes.
Then they should have done it legally if they love America so much.
But of course the people who who claim that they oppose illegal immigration because of the resource drain don't really want this either, because the truth is that they just don't want immigrants here at all.
Thank God we have you here to tell us why we feel the way we do.
The unemployment rates are high now, but wait and see what happens when all of these old folks hit retirement, but still need a variety of services.
What's your point here? The retirements and need for services will cause the unemployment rate to go down whether there are illegals here or not. The presence of illegals causes the unemployment rate to be higher because they are taking up some jobs that could be done by American citizens or holders of green cards.
Here's a news flash for you too. The new politically correct term for illegals is "new Americans". You managed to phase out the word "illegal" when discussing immigrants. Why not just go right to the new term and be walking lock-step with the looney left?
Jay12
10-19-2010, 06:37 AM
Also, if we kick the immigrants out, who will do the jobs that they currently do? Not the little sissies and weak minded children that many families are raising here in the U.S. today. Hell, it is actually amazing to me when I see kids that would rather earn $8 per hour ringing a register than earn $12-16 per hour in a slaughterhouse or fish plant. Never mind washing dishes, cleaning offices and factories, etc. I would suggest renting "A Day Without a Mexican" - it is a fascinating movie.
Very true! When I was in college, I wanted to work as a construction aide because the pay was good. When I told my mom, she hated the idea, saying how "dangerous" that was, and I should rather consider a fast food joint or a clothing store, despite that the money won't be that good.
rickdugan
10-19-2010, 07:28 AM
Then they should have done it legally if they love America so much.
Thank God we have you here to tell us why we feel the way we do.
Really? Any suggestions on how they could have done that? Since '96 it has been virtually impossible for Latinos to immigrate to the country legally, but no doubt you have some thoughful insights as to how this could be accomplished.
And as to why you feel the way you do, my deepest apologies. It is clear that it really is the legality that is jamming you up and I have no doubt that you would welcome immigrants with open arms if an open immigration policy was the law. ;)
What's your point here? The retirements and need for services will cause the unemployment rate to go down whether there are illegals here or not. The presence of illegals causes the unemployment rate to be higher because they are taking up some jobs that could be done by American citizens or holders of green cards.
Let me explain it more s-l-o-w-l-y for you. In the early days of Social Security there were roughly 50 working adults for every retiree, which made the system fairly easy to support. In the last few decades that ratio has been less than 4 to 1 and in two decades that number may actually go to as low as two working adults for every retiree, which is going to cause an enormous strain upon the working adults when it occurs. Hence, the more people we have working here legally, the more people we have supporting what will soon be an enormous retiree population. Also, when this wave of retirements occurs somebody is going to have to fill all of the job vacancies, both skilled and unskilled. There simply are not enough younger Americans to bear these burdens without being tax slaves to the retirement population.
Here's a news flash for you too. The new politically correct term for illegals is "new Americans". You managed to phase out the word "illegal" when discussing immigrants. Why not just go right to the new term and be walking lock-step with the looney left?
I'm a Republican, boy blunder. I support immigration not only for personal and humanitarian reasons, but I firmly believe that it is also good for our long-term economic wellness, both for the reasons noted above and for many other reasons. Ask Mayor Bloomberg if he wants the immigrants gone. He doesn't, because he knows what it would do to the support infrastructure of NYC. Ask the farmers who in the past year had to let crops rot in the fields, because Americans would not fill the job vacancies, how they feel about immigration. And so forth and so on, but there it is.
Btw, if you are going to take an alternate position on a topical argument it is generally customary to respond to the entire argument rather than cherry-picking pieces you think you may have some counter for. The need to cherry pick pieces while avoiding others is a sign of a weak mind.
camille27
10-19-2010, 08:48 AM
THANK YOU for posting one way to obtain documents!! it is one of the most difficult and expensive procedures ever! i don't care enough to type out how my family obtained citizenship but it eventually got too expensive and so the rest of my family is still overseas.
that is not even a valid arguement. nobody is trying to mustard gas or kill the illegal aliens. do you know of any other country that just allows illegal immigrants to pour over their borders all day every day?? if you do please share. i'm dying to hear this. really. i'll wait....
the united states wanted free trade and cheap labor. multiple policies were put into place to make it easier to mexican citizens to cross the border for work. you happen to be mad now because the economy is bad. this is not a new problem. if you want to get mad, go back in time twenty years and write letters to your representatives in congress. tell them that you would rather pay double for your quality of life if that meant giving jobs to u.s. citizens only.
i think some of you are not realizing that, if you did not obtain citizenship via application process, it is only BY LUCK that you were born here. that's it. if you can't see past the fact that you were lucky enough to be born in a country that has a sewage system and a stable government, then i don't know what to tell you.
as for being "way up north", i JUST left mexico last week. worked texas last year and made lots of new mexican friends.
and as kayla pointed out, rounding up mexicans and deporting them en masse will not address all of the immigrants here without documentation. my psychiatrist in college was out of status. people from all countries overstay their work/travel/student visas. it is not specifically a mexican problem. but then, you have already found your scapegoat, so you're not interested in hearing anything but the anti-mexican sentiment that is dripping out of your mouth.
jester214
10-19-2010, 09:04 AM
Really? Any suggestions on how they could have done that? Since '96 it has been virtually impossible for Latinos to immigrate to the country legally, but no doubt you have some thoughful insights as to how this could be accomplished.
And as to why you feel the way you do, my deepest apologies. It is clear that it really is the legality that is jamming you up and I have no doubt that you would welcome immigrants with open arms if an open immigration policy was the law. ;)
I'm a Republican, boy blunder. I support immigration not only for personal and humanitarian reasons, but I firmly believe that it is also good for our long-term economic wellness, both for the reasons noted above and for many other reasons. Ask Mayor Bloomberg if he wants the immigrants gone. He doesn't, because he knows what it would do to the support infrastructure of NYC. Ask the farmers who in the past year had to let crops rot in the fields, because Americans would not fill the job vacancies, how they feel about immigration. And so forth and so on, but there it is.
Btw, if you are going to take an alternate position on a topical argument it is generally customary to respond to the entire argument rather than cherry-picking pieces you think you may have some counter for. The need to cherry pick pieces while avoiding others is a sign of a weak mind.
So the 14 or 15 million people that have become legal immigrants since 96' were from everywhere else? ::)
Seriously, open immigration is your answer? Our population would double in no time! South America and the Carribbean would flock to our country, followed by Africa and South East Asia. Even if that could be beneficial to our economy, the speed with which it would happen would overwhelm many places to the point of ruination. Not to mention what it would do to the countries that saw a mass exodus of their people. Not to mention what it would do politically (a selfish reason, but a accurate one).
Again, I don't think the deportation of all illegals is the right answer, and I would support a structured move to legalize them all, but we still need to crackdown on letting MORE into this country. With almost 10% unemployment I don't think too many crucial infrastructure jobs would crumble. As for migrant workers... Historically we brought them in, let them work, and sent them home.
I ignored your social security section, because frankly I don't care and I find it some what off-topic.
If cherry-picking shows a weak mind, then just about everyone in this thread has a "weak" mind.
rickdugan
10-19-2010, 09:29 AM
So the 14 or 15 million people that have become legal immigrants since 96' were from everywhere else? ::)
Seriously, open immigration is your answer? Our population would double in no time! South America and the Carribbean would flock to our country, followed by Africa and South East Asia. Even if that could be beneficial to our economy, the speed with which it would happen would overwhelm many places to the point of ruination. Not to mention what it would do to the countries that saw a mass exodus of their people. Not to mention what it would do politically (a selfish reason, but a accurate one).
Again, I don't think the deportation of all illegals is the right answer, and I would support a structured move to legalize them all, but we still need to crackdown on letting MORE into this country. With almost 10% unemployment I don't think too many crucial infrastructure jobs would crumble. As for migrant workers... Historically we brought them in, let them work, and sent them home.
I ignored your social security section, because frankly I don't care and I find it some what off-topic.
If cherry-picking shows a weak mind, then just about everyone in this thread has a "weak" mind.
About the only way a Latino can move to the U.S. legally is through a naturalized or American spouse, and only then if the person did not previously enter the country illegally. It is almost a pointless exercise to go to a U.S. consulate in Chile or Equador and try to get approval to move to the U.S. Hell, you might not know this but it is extremely difficult in some countries to even get a temporary visa to visit family, for fear that you might not go back home.
There is no way of knowing how many of those naturalized in the last 15 years were Latino, but I would bet that a good chunk were from European and Asian countries.
I don't think anyone is saying that we should just open the flood gates, but a rational system to allow immigration would be the right approach. And you might not care about the massive elder burden coming our way, but I sure do, both for myself and my children. It is very much on topic and a real concern - we are going to need fresh blood in the form of workers and taxpayers, which we are simply not producing enough of here. I don't want my kids working their whole lives simply to pay for a swelled (and voting) retirement class.
And as far as the need for these immigrants - really? How many of us are raising our kids to pick crops, or to care for animals, or to wash dishes, or to clean offices, or to butcher animals, etc.? Even WITH today's unemployment rate, farmers are STILL having trouble finding enough help to get fields and orchards picked, particularly with the recent crackdowns. Crops have been left to rot. And how much do you want to pay for your food and basic services? If we need to start paying soft American kids $20 per hour to get them to wash dishes, pick crops, clean offices, etc., how expensive are our goods and services going to get?
jack0177057
10-19-2010, 10:19 AM
We stole this land from other people fair and square (i.e., brutal violence and deception), why can't they be good sports about it and not try to sneak back in to take some of the crumbs that drop from our lavish tables?
The whole immigration issue is a total joke. This is a country of immigrants discriminating against other immigrants. "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" - so that we can deport their asses!
US businesses are taking jobs and tax revenues (property taxes, school taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and federal income taxes) to third world countries for cheap labor. Ironic, because so much cheap labor is already in this country and all we have to do is legalize it. Don't worry so much about immigration, people - in a few more decades, all the manufacturing jobs will be in Mexico (and other 3rd world countries), and Mexicans won't have to immigrate into the US. The tax dollars will shift to Mexico, and your kids or grandkids (in bankrupt US cities) will be looking to immigrate to Mexico.
I want cheap labor in the US because: (1) keeps US businesses in the US, (2) keeps US businesses competitive with those that establish themselves in 3rd world countries, (3) services (maids, gardners, nannies, crop pickers, etc.) are more affordable, (4) the grocery and restaurant industry is more affordable, (5) the hospitality industry is more affordable, (6) construction is a lot cheaper (this includes residential homes, schools, public libraries, hospitals, business offices, retail property, etc.) and (7) US manufactured goods are more affordable.
However, I want immigrants to go through a strict probationary period. I want them to be registered with Homeland Security, the FBI and the local law enforcement agencies. They must come here to work and must stay out of trouble. If they cause any trouble in the first 5 years or if they rely on public support agencies, I want them deported. They are here to be exploited, like all immigrants before them.
jester214
10-19-2010, 10:42 AM
About the only way a Latino can move to the U.S. legally is through a naturalized or American spouse, and only then if the person did not previously enter the country illegally. It is almost a pointless exercise to go to a U.S. consulate in Chile or Equador and try to get approval to move to the U.S. Hell, you might not know this but it is extremely difficult in some countries to even get a temporary visa to visit family, for fear that you might not go back home.
There is no way of knowing how many of those naturalized in the last 15 years were Latino, but I would bet that a good chunk were from European and Asian countries.
I don't think anyone is saying that we should just open the flood gates, but a rational system to allow immigration would be the right approach. And you might not care about the massive elder burden coming our way, but I sure do, both for myself and my children. It is very much on topic and a real concern - we are going to need fresh blood in the form of workers and taxpayers, which we are simply not producing enough of here. I don't want my kids working their whole lives simply to pay for a swelled (and voting) retirement class.
And as far as the need for these immigrants - really? How many of us are raising our kids to pick crops, or to care for animals, or to wash dishes, or to clean offices, or to butcher animals, etc.? Even WITH today's unemployment rate, farmers are STILL having trouble finding enough help to get fields and orchards picked, particularly with the recent crackdowns. Crops have been left to rot. And how much do you want to pay for your food and basic services? If we need to start paying soft American kids $20 per hour to get them to wash dishes, pick crops, clean offices, etc., how expensive are our goods and services going to get?
600K a year get turned from illegal to legal... Yeah, none of them are Latino. ::) Not to mention the other 400K we let in...
Your points sounded like "opening the flood gates". That's the path we are headed down if we don't do something quickly.
Inserting a massive and uncharacteristically large generation into the social security system is one of the major issues (Bill Clinton and other politicians dipping into it is another) that led to the current problems. If now we try and insert a bunch of extra immigrants in an attempt to pay for the baby boomers and their children, then what will we do? Insert even more immigrants in to pay for the next generation? I think you can see the problem.
Again, my point was clear. With unemployment as high as it is, I don't think "infrastructure" is really much of an argument. Not to mention the arguably good jobs that some illegals take, i.e. construction. Once again... I don't mind migrant workers, as long as they go home afterwards. And to be frank, some of them do very well, albeit no benefits.
We need to
A. Shut down the borders.
B. Move to legalize more of the illegals
C. Massively overhaul and improve the system of process legal immigration
D. Crack down on people who just stay after they are supposed to
But people don't want to do this, on both sides of the spectrum. Because it would involve doing some things that they want and some things they don't. Politically this country sucks at compromise.
Kellydancer
10-19-2010, 11:10 AM
Of course. I was countering Kelly's argument that only those who paid into SS should receive it.
But like mentioned she was a citizen. I will admit there are Americans who get more in social security than they paid in, but that's another issue. What I'm talking about is the people from other countries like the Soviet couple who took money they never paid into. Sure, maybe they had familiy help and savings but the fact that they took money they weren't entitled to makes me sick.
Kellydancer
10-19-2010, 11:25 AM
and truth be told Camille; this has been a very long going problem here. the sad thing is that yes, it did take the shitty state of the current economy for people outside of az, tx, and ca to start noticing that something does need to be done. now i will say this as everyone pretty much knows where i stand when it comes to the topic of illegal immigration; our policy on how foreigners become citizens here definitely DOES need a HUGE makeover. but that does not make it OK for people to cross into a foreign country illegally and they should be aware of the possible consequences that can happen.
I'm in Illinois but we have a huge illegal population. We had a huge immigration rally here in 2006 and 2007 and the amount of people unable to speak English and carrying Mexican flags astounded me. Where I was working then was asking all its bilingual workers to volunteer to translate (I declined because I never work for free). My comments do not come from out of thin air, it comes from having worked with an ESL department and a social service agency. It's gotten worse and now you can't even work for public aid or WIC here without being fluent in Spanish. In an article it was stated that the highest growing population getting welfare here were "non English speaking Hispanics". While technically that doesn't mean illegals, Illinois is known as a state that doesn't ask for immigration status.
Incidentally I live in a farm area and see many migrant workers picking fruit. I actually have no issue with them at all because they are working hard and not taking a job an American would want. I certainly wouldn't want their job. Most of them go back to Mexico after the season is done and they are back when it starts again.
Btw I would also agree the immigration policy needs to change. My grandmother had to go through a lot to stay here.
tempest666
10-19-2010, 11:40 AM
Doesn't canada have a sensible guest worker/resident alien program? I heard something about it a few months back...
Melonie
10-19-2010, 11:47 AM
US businesses are taking jobs and tax revenues (property taxes, school taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and federal income taxes) to third world countries for cheap labor. Ironic, because so much cheap labor is already in this country and all we have to do is legalize it.
Actually I am in total agreement ... as long as we're talking about a globally competitive wage rate of US $3 an hour being paid to 'unskilled labor' in the USA. Of course, the way the FED money printing is going, it actually shouldn't take more than a couple of years before today's US $7.50 an hour minimum wage will actually be worth what US $3 an hour is worth today versus competing world currencies !!!
On the social security tax contribution issue, from a real world economic standpoint this has to be 'netted out' against taxpayer funded social welfare benefit consumption. For a minimum wage worker, you're looking at something on the order of $1,200 a year in social security contributions, plus a few hundred dollars per year in sales taxes and a couple of hundred dollars per year in imputed property taxes in rent. This is versus something on the order of $15,000 a year in equivalent cash value of medicaid, food stamps, subsidized utilities, subsidized rent etc. Thus every additional low skill minimum wage worker's family COSTS higher skill higher earning US taxpayers something like $13,500 a year in direct subsidies ! And this of course does not count additional costs for education, law enforcement and corrections etc. Now if you want to do away with the medicaid, food stamps, subsidized utilities, subsidized rent benefits etc. there is a CHANCE of breaking even on the deal. Of course, with the only incentive for moving to America being the $14,000 or so in annual earnings from a minimum wage job ( without tacking on another $15,000+ per year in equivalent cash value of social welfare benefits by removing benefit eligibility), odds are that America's illegal immigration problem would quickly disappear of its own accord.
And by the same token, if medicaid, food stamp, subsidized utilities, subsidized rent benefits etc. were scaled back for 'permanently unemployed' unskilled Americans, there also would be much less of a problem finding American citizens willing to take minimum wage job openings that currently depend on illegal aliens to be filled.
bobby, every time you post a nice liberal post, it always makes me want to visit canada =)
... with the operable point being that, where Canada is concerned, all you can DO is visit !!! If you overstay your 'visit', the Canadian gov't will promptly deport you !!!
(snip)"Canada has begun deporting its illegal immigrants with only a few days notice - and the result:
Portugal's ambassador to Canada, João Silveira Carvalho, has publicly told people to avoid trouble and to "stop feeding the myth" in Portugal that you can come to Canada without documents, several community members said
Some estimates hold that 15,000 people are working illegally in southern Ontario's construction and hospitality industries, and the Canada-wide figure is 300,000.
Immigration Canada said there will not be an amnesty. The federal agency said they have a legal duty to remove people who have come to this country without following the proper procedures.
Many in the group deported Sunday say they will try to return to Canada and resume the lives they have built.
"Shame on the Canadian government for deporting people who are working hard. We need those people here," Barata said.
"We have an obligation to the hundreds of thousands of people who play by the rules," Immigration and Citizenship Minister Monte Solberg said Sunday on CTV's Question Period."(snip)
Doesn't canada have a sensible guest worker/resident alien program?
... of course Canada recognizes the costs involved in providing social welfare services to both legal and illegal immigrants, and is very pro-active in reducing such costs ...
(snip)"When people tell you how much more humane government-run health care is, ask them to explain the case of Juana Tejada in Canada. Tejada came to Canada as part of the government�s attempt to attract foreigners to fill roles as live-in caregivers, apparently to help the Canadians to save some money on wages. When Tejada herself became sick with cancer a few years after her arrival, suddenly the Canadians didn�t find her valuable enough to treat (via QandO):
Juana Tejada wants to stay � and die � in Canada.
A live-in caregiver from the Philippines, the terminally ill cancer patient will be forced to leave when her work permit expires in two months, even though her period of service here as a nanny was supposed to be the gateway to permanent residency.
Tejada has twice been denied a chance to stay, however, because her illness puts a burden on the health-care system. �
The 38-year-old came to Canada in 2003 under the federal live-in caregiver program, which grants permanent resident status to domestic workers after they complete their three-year assignments and obtain the necessary medical and criminal-record clearances.
Her cancer was found in 2006, during an exam for her immigration application. Tejada appealed to immigration officials to waive the good-health requirement for humanitarian reasons.
�While I am sympathetic to your situation, I am not satisfied that these circumstances justify granting an exemption,� a case processing officer in Alberta wrote in the latest decision. �In the opinion of a medical officer, this health condition might reasonably be expected to cause excessive demand on health and social services.�
Got that? They wanted Juana to come to Canada so she could serve Canadians who needed home health care. When Juana got sick, the same health care service for which she worked couldn�t be bothered to foot the bill for her treatments. Juana worked and paid into that system for three years before they discovered that she would �cause excessive demand� for her treatment."(snip)
from
^^^ meaning that Canada not only aggressively deports illegal aliens, they also deport LEGAL aliens if they become a 'liability' to Canadian taxpayers. Could someone please initiate a basic 'reality check' on the issue of US immigration policy relative to the actual immigration policies of other western countries ? The apparent hypocracy of criticizing US policy while praising Canadian policy is simply astounding !
And of course other western countries have their own renditions ...
(snip)" France's deportation of more than 8,000 ethnic Roma, commonly referred to as gypsies, "is a disgrace" that could trigger legal action, a senior European Commission official said Tuesday.
"I personally have been appalled by a situation which gave the impression that people are being removed from a member state of the European Union just because they belong to a certain ethnic minority," said Viviane Reding, vice president for justice of the European Commission, the executive arm of the European Union.
"Let me be very clear: Discrimination on the basis of ethnic origin or race has no place in Europe," she added.
Authorities in France conducted raids recently at camps in Lyon and other cities that forced out a total of 8,300 Romanian and Bulgarian nationals of Roma origin. Close to 10,000 Roma were expelled in 2009. Officials said the raids were part of a broader crackdown on illegal immigration."(snip) from
(snip)" In the midst of a wave of anti-foreigner violence, much of it directed against Gypsies, Germany has decided to deport thousands of Romanians, most of them Gypsies.
The mass deportation comes as German political parties near agreement on limiting the constitutional guarantee of political asylum that West Germany adopted after World War II to symbolize its atonement for Nazi genocide.
Gypsies, many fleeing oppression by Romanian nationalists, make up about 30,000 of the 280,000 foreigners who have entered Germany this year seeking asylum. The flood of immigrants into a country that officially permits no immigration has prompted a huge public outcry"(snip) from
... and before the racism card is played yet again in regard to US immigration policy toward Mexicans ...
(snip)"Last week a study by the Friedrich Ebert foundation found more than 30% of people questioned agreed that Germany was "overrun by foreigners", while a similar number said they believed that some immigrants had only come to Germany to take advantage of its social welfare, and therefore "should be sent home when jobs are scarce".
What they said
"At the start of the 60s we invited the guest-workers to Germany. We kidded ourselves for a while that they wouldn't stay, that one day they'd go home. That isn't what happened. And of course the tendency was to say: let's be 'multikulti' and live next to each other and enjoy being together, [but] this concept has failed, failed utterly."
Angela Merkel, German chancellor
"Germany should … get tougher on those who refuse to integrate before opening itself up to further immigration."
Horst Seehofer, Bavarian state premier
"Integration is the achievement of one who has integrated … I don't have to recognise anyone who lives from the state, rejects that state, refuses to ensure his children receive an education and continues to produce little headscarfed girls."
"A large number of the Arabs and Turks living in this city (Berlin) has no productive function other than selling fruit and vegetables".
"Turks are conquering Germany in the same way as Kosovars conquered Kosovo – with a high birth rate."
Thilo Sarrazin, former Bundesbank board member"(snip) from
If anyone is willing to learn from history, here it is ! Immigration of low skill level foreigners is simply incompatible with countries that provide generous social welfare benefits. 50+ years ago, if an immigrant ( legal or illegal ) was unable to earn enough money to cover his family's cost of living, that family faced a strong incentive to A. work harder / longer, or B. go back to where they came from. But with the advent of generous social welfare programs, the 'minimum standard of living' made possible by receiving social welfare benefit assistance from the state, in many cases, exceeded the standard of living that was achievable via hard work in the immigrant's home country. This created a 'moral hazard' situation where immigrants had everything to gain and very little to lose ... and arguably created a flip side situation where citizen taxpayers ( who higher taxes are paying for those social welfare benefits for low skill level immigrants ) had everything to lose and very little to gain.
Canada, France, Germany, and other western countries are acutely aware of this trend, and are taking strong action to end this 'moral hazard' situation via extremely limited legal immigration criteria plus aggressive deportation of illegal immigrants, with little public criticism. So far, the USA has taken no such action, but those Americans who openly discuss the topic are heavily criticized for their supposed 'racism', their 'lack of compassion', their 'greed' etc.
~
eagle2
10-19-2010, 02:44 PM
it balances itself out when i don't have to pay to feed, educate, clothe, house, insure, and jail them.
You don't have to feed, educate, clothe, house, insure, and jail all illegal immigrants. There are some who abuse the system or end up in jail, but there are many who pay more into the system then they receive. There are many illegal immigrants that come here without children, do an honest day's work, pay their taxes, and stay out of jail.
hockeybobby
10-19-2010, 03:23 PM
... of course Canada recognizes the costs involved in providing social welfare services to both legal and illegal immigrants, and is very pro-active in reducing such costs ...
(snip)"When people tell you how much more humane government-run health care is, ask them to explain the case of Juana Tejada in Canada. Tejada came to Canada as part of the government�s attempt to attract foreigners to fill roles as live-in caregivers, apparently to help the Canadians to save some money on wages. When Tejada herself became sick with cancer a few years after her arrival, suddenly the Canadians didn�t find her valuable enough to treat (via QandO):
Juana Tejada wants to stay � and die � in Canada.
A live-in caregiver from the Philippines, the terminally ill cancer patient will be forced to leave when her work permit expires in two months, even though her period of service here as a nanny was supposed to be the gateway to permanent residency.
Tejada has twice been denied a chance to stay, however, because her illness puts a burden on the health-care system. �
The 38-year-old came to Canada in 2003 under the federal live-in caregiver program, which grants permanent resident status to domestic workers after they complete their three-year assignments and obtain the necessary medical and criminal-record clearances.
Her cancer was found in 2006, during an exam for her immigration application. Tejada appealed to immigration officials to waive the good-health requirement for humanitarian reasons.
�While I am sympathetic to your situation, I am not satisfied that these circumstances justify granting an exemption,� a case processing officer in Alberta wrote in the latest decision. �In the opinion of a medical officer, this health condition might reasonably be expected to cause excessive demand on health and social services.�
Got that? They wanted Juana to come to Canada so she could serve Canadians who needed home health care. When Juana got sick, the same health care service for which she worked couldn�t be bothered to foot the bill for her treatments. Juana worked and paid into that system for three years before they discovered that she would �cause excessive demand� for her treatment."(snip)
from http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cec_1213120658
^^^ meaning that Canada not only aggressively deports illegal aliens, they also deport LEGAL aliens if they become a 'liability' to Canadian taxpayers. Could someone please initiate a basic 'reality check' on the issue of US immigration policy relative to the actual immigration policies of other western countries ? The apparent hypocracy of criticizing US policy while praising Canadian policy is simply astounding !
This woman was granted her wish to remain in Canada:
12/12/2009Minister Kenney proposes significant improvements to the Live-in Caregiver Program. (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2009/2009-12-12.asp)3/8/2009Juana passed away on International Women's Day. Viewings will be held at DeMarco Funeral Home, 3725 Keele St., North York, (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3725+Keele+St.,+North+York,+ontario&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.157795,44.296875&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=addr) Ontario, between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Sunday and from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Monday. In lieu of flowers, a donation can be made to the Princess Margaret Hospital Foundation.7/18/2008To all caring and compassionate people who signed the online petition and opened their hearts to Juana:
We are pleased to confirm that Juana's dying wish to be given permanent residency status in Canada has been granted by Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC). At a press conference held July 18, 2008, Juana's lawyer, Rafael Fabregas, announced that CIC has found Juana eligible for permanent residency status and will grant her visa application once all landing requirements have been met.
This is great news for Juana and all her supporters. The threat of deportation that has been hanging over Juana's head, and weighing down her spirits, has been lifted. As Juana herself stated during the press conference, she can now focus on fighting her deadly medical condition.
We were at the press conference and were asked by Juana personally to extend her thanks to all of you. So, on Juana's behalf, we thank you for signing the online petition. Without a doubt, your strong show of support for Juana helped persuade the authorities to reverse the deportation order.
We also thank Prime Minister Harper and Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, Diane Finley, for listening to Juana's appeal for humanitarian consideration and acting accordingly. They have restored our faith in the innate goodness of Canadians.
Last but not least, we also thank Juana for remaining steadfast in her fight against the deportation order. She has said that she is fighting not just for her rights but also for those of other caregivers like her. Her resolute determination to pursue her case until the end has in our view paved the way for the establishment of a precedent-setting decision that will likely benefit many of the thousands of caregivers in Canada who may find themselves in a similar situation. The CIC decision in Juana's case may lead to the removal of the requirement for a second medical examination as a condition for obtaining permanent residency status for caregivers, an onerous and unfair requirement that applies only to the caregiver class of temporary workers. For her heroic fight for better treatment of caregivers, Juana deserves our praise, admiration and gratitude.
Juana's fight with the CIC is all but over, but her fight against her deadly cancer is not. As was reported in the news media, Juana has stage 4 cancer that has spread to her lungs and is taking morphine to ease her pain. We ask you to please remember Juana in your prayers. Please lift her up in your daily prayers and ask the Almighty for her speedy recovery so that her joy will be complete. She still needs our help.
Gratefully,
Oswald and Mila Magno
www.juana-tejada.info (http://www.juana-tejada.info/)
Click here (http://www.scribd.com/full/3994278?access_key=key-27sw8mhtfiiezz107g9v) link to view press release issued by Juana Tejada's lawyer.
Click here (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/5465364_nRJHq) to view photos taken during the press conference.
7/17/2008Citizenship and Immigration Canada has rendered its decision on Juana Tejada's dying wish that she be granted permanent residence on humanitarian and compassionate grounds.
The decision will be announced on Friday, July 18 at 10:00 a.m. during a press conference at the offices of Mamann & Associates Immigration Lawyers, 74 Victoria Street, Suite 303, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The formal announcement will be made by her lawyer, Rafael Fabregas.
Juana Tejada, her husband Noli Azada, and some members of the community who supported Juana's application will be in attendance to answer any questions.
Juana Tejada will be making a plea to the Government of Canada to make changes to the Live-in Caregiver program so that no other live-in caregiver will have to go through the hardship that she has experienced.
7/4/2008Juana's lawyer, Rafael Fabregas, submitted documents to CIC case officer in support of Juana's appeal for humanitarian consideration. (timeline cont'd....see url below)
http://juana-tejada.weebly.com/
We have our own right wing nasties here that have to be bitch slapped occasionally by the power of the people. We have a huge bureaucracy too, and occasionally it makes mistakes, but we aspire to being a just society, and doing the right thing. People saw that this wasn't fair, and they rallied.
Mel: how's that for a 'reality check' ?
Regards,
your friendly neighbourhood hockeybobby
camille27
10-19-2010, 04:11 PM
yayyyyyy bobby your canadian posts always cheer me up even though i have no idea why haha all that left-winged optimism gives me hope =D
4everresolutions
10-19-2010, 04:37 PM
My honey and I are currently going through the process of getting his immigration papers. It's really, very easy to immigrate to Canada.
Also, I've never heard of a Canadian hospital turning away people who need treatment. Maybe I sound naive, but I've taken American relatives to the ER many times in my life (Yay for Family Christmases) and the hospital has accepted them no questions asked. Same goes for friends from France. 'Free' health care is free health care for all here, it seems. Edit: Has been brought to my attention that visitors from other countries still need to pay for health-care in Canada.....leaving me wondering why a law would state one thing, but then in practice do something different. *sigh* I could never hack it in politics - I don't like inconsistency. :(
A health care debate would be an interesting thread, too....
tempest666
10-19-2010, 04:55 PM
A health care debate would be an interesting thread, too....
God, no. lol I don't think my possibly pregnant brain can take more. Health care is the last thing I want to debate. :-[
4everresolutions
10-19-2010, 04:59 PM
^ Oh my, my darling. You've had a lot of surprises this week, haven't you?
*hugs* Sending happy-time vibes your way. Chin up, as best you can.
tempest666
10-19-2010, 05:11 PM
^ Oh my, my darling. You've had a lot of surprises this week, haven't you?
*hugs* Sending happy-time vibes your way. Chin up, as best you can.
THREADJACK!!!! but its my thread so I can't really threadjack it right? It's like OJ being arrested for stealing his own property :D yeah I'm being silly. thanks for the hugs. I'm gonna take a test tomorrow. I'm kinda on the fence about kids since he has 2 already. :P
ArmySGT.
10-19-2010, 05:30 PM
Wow, just wow.
The unemployment rates are high now, but wait and see what happens when all of these old folks hit retirement, but still need a variety of services.
Yes indeed "wow, just wow".
The unemployment rate would plummet now wouldn't it? Since with retirement, that means those job opportunities are opened up doesn't it. More jobs = less unemployment.
2+2 still equals 4 right?
Not to mention all those service jobs that cater to Seniors too.
princessjas
10-19-2010, 08:25 PM
Lol... Ok you know how HARD it is to become a citizen of the United States? I came here in 96 meaning I've been here since 96 AND I am still NOT a citizen of the united states. My family and I came her on a visitation visa and overstayed and became "Out of Status".. When I turned 18 I took measures to Adjust my status. What those measures are? I will not say. To adjust your status in America after an expired visa.. You have to pay $1400 to USCIS to file your paperwork. The $1400 is ONLY to file.. and to file yourself. Some people pay up to $4000 to a lawyer to do this for them but I decided to do it myself.
After you file your docs, a few weeks later they send you a letter for fingerprinting (to make sure you're not a criminal amongst other things) 3 months later they send you a social security card that should be used for WORK ONLY and in that time you will also get a travel stamp (which allows you to travel to your home country for emergencies but did I use my stamp? Hell no I was too scared they wouldn't let me back in the country)
After another 3 months they call you for interview and ask you a series of questions and notifiy you if you passed interview or not. I know people that have been arrested and deported right after this interview. If you pass they give you a greencard if you don't pass you can file again OR they deport you depending on WHY you failed interview.
ALOT of you don't know that during this process they require you to get a physical. If you are HIV positive or have any deadly disease they deport you RIGHT AWAY. America does NOT play about having sick immigrants in their country.
Anyways, Today I am a green card holder/Legal Resident of this country. In a few years I will be able to file for citizenship but will I? Hell no. I just want you all to know that to become an american citizen is NOT easy. Some of you keep saying it is easy and don't even know the process. IT IS A VERY RIGOROUS PROCESS...
However, Obtaining REAL (fake) documents is EASY! I know 3 guys off the top of my head that MAKE social security cards for a living. I also know 2 ladies at my local dmv that issues drivers license to illegals. Oooh and mind you my dad is a diplomat and has connections around the world. I am sure a birth certificate from the Virgin Islands is VERY easy to obtain..... ;) Hey I am just stating facts here.
Alot of you Americans need to READ up on the laws. You guys really DO NOT know what is going on in this country but can make good argument.
Just to back up what I have just said. This is how I adjusted my status in the States http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis.
My ex was like this. His dad wasn't a diplomat but was a higher up in the Algerian gov't. Kinda like our secretary of denfense I believe. We still went through never-ending hell with the immigration office and if we would have actually worked out I'm sure it would have been worse. I mean, hell, how many people know what brand of toothbrush THEY use, much less their SO? I was all like.....mine is the pink one with the white stripes and his is the green one with a blue grip....they both have wavy bristles....is that not good enough? (It apparently was not.) The immigration dude looked at me like I was an idiot.
Oh, I also got asked stupid shit, like what brand of underwear he wore....uh, dunno, varies, but I can tell you the size, if that'll work? We damn near went to jail for me being scatterbrained. I finally pleaded with the guy and told him, I can tell you his favorite food and his fav shirt and his bedtime ritual and what position he likes to sleep in and how he takes his tea and coffee and all his fav foods and I even know that his mom tossed a pair of his sneakers when he was 11 cause his feet are stinky after soccer.....wth do you expect me to know? I can tell you about b-days and Christmas's and his HS experience, but I may not remember if we are using an Oral B or a Colgate toothbrush at this moment, it was what was on sale at the time
I think it is weird that these exams are so bad even established couples "study" for them. Stupid.
KaylaM
10-19-2010, 08:34 PM
My ex was like this. His dad wasn't a diplomat but was a higher up in the Algerian gov't. Kinda like our secretary of defense I believe. We still went through never-ending hell with the immigration office and if we would have actually worked out I'm sure it would have been worse. I mean, hell, how many people know what brand of toothbrush THEY use, much less their SO? I was all like.....mine is the pink one with the white stripes and his is the green one with a blue grip....they both have wavy bristles....is that not good enough? (It apparently was not.) The immigration dude looked at me like I was an idiot.
Oh, I also got asked stupid shit, like what brand of underwear he wore....uh, dunno, varies, but I can tell you the size, if that'll work? We damn near went to jail for me being scatterbrained. I finally pleaded with the guy and told him, I can tell you his favorite food and his fav shirt and his bedtime ritual and what position he likes to sleep in and how he takes his tea and coffee and all his fav foods and I even know that his mom tossed a pair of his sneakers when he was 11 cause his feet are stinky after soccer.....wth do you expect me to know? I can tell you about b-days and Christmas's and his HS experience, but I may not remember if we are using an Oral B or a Colgate toothbrush at this moment, it was what was on sale at the time
I think it is weird that these exams are so bad even established couples "study" for them. Stupid.
Jas, we have wayyyyyy too much in common!
Yes the United states don't give a damn about a person's status outside the country. I really did think that they would issue me a green card with no problem but I had another thing coming.
I was also asked these questions along with "When was the last time you had sex" and "What is his favorite color".. Humiliating? Yes!
This is one tough ass country.
Melonie
10-20-2010, 03:35 AM
2009Minister Kenney proposes significant improvements to the Live-in Caregiver Program.3/8/2009Juana passed away on International Women's Day. Viewings will be held at DeMarco Funeral Home, 3725 Keele St., North York, Ontario, between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Sunday and from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Monday. In lieu of flowers, a donation can be made to the Princess Margaret Hospital Foundation.7/18/2008To all caring and compassionate people who signed the online petition and opened their hearts to Juana:
Yes the Canadian gov't 'did the right thing' in Juana's case ... after she hired an attorney, after the attorney got a couple of liberal MP's on board who used Juana's case to make digs against the conservative gov't, a petition drive, and a ton of adverse free publicity churning in liberal Canadian media. I wonder how many other 'Juana's' simply got deported without publicity ?
'Free' health care is free health care for all here, it seems. Edit: Has been brought to my attention that visitors from other countries still need to pay for health-care in Canada.....leaving me wondering why a law would state one thing, but then in practice do something different.
... because Canada recognizes the huge costs associated with providing these 'free' benefits, and attempts to limit eligibility for those benefits strictly to legal Canadian citizens. It isn't the 'inconsistencies' that bother me ... it's the hypocracy !
flickad
10-20-2010, 05:34 AM
^^
Yep, have to agree here. Social programs like universal health care cost money, and some limitations must apply if they are to remain affordable. There's no shame in limiting them to citizens. If they become total free-for-alls, they won't be sustainable for long. Every country that does provide universal health care has this limitation or a similar one (for instance, limiting it to citizens of that country and those with reciprocal arrangements). It's simply not possible to provide for everyone without imposing the kind of tax burden that the public won't tolerate.
I also second Melonie's point that the Canadian government only acceded to Juana's request when they were shamed into doing so. It is very likely that others in similar situations received no such indulgence.
bem401
10-20-2010, 05:38 AM
Really? Any suggestions on how they could have done that? Since '96 it has been virtually impossible for Latinos to immigrate to the country legally, but no doubt you have some thoughful insights as to how this could be accomplished.
And as to why you feel the way you do, my deepest apologies. It is clear that it really is the legality that is jamming you up and I have no doubt that you would welcome immigrants with open arms if an open immigration policy was the law. ;)
Actually, it is the legality of it all. If they come here illegally, even from the UK or Canada, they shouldn't be allowed to stay unless they do it legally.
There simply are not enough younger Americans to bear these burdens without being tax slaves to the retirement population.
This is why the system needs to be reformed. It is a Ponzi scheme, just like you described it.
I'm a Republican, boy blunder. I support immigration not only for personal and humanitarian reasons, but I firmly believe that it is also good for our long-term economic wellness, both for the reasons noted above and for many other reasons. Ask Mayor Bloomberg if he wants the immigrants gone. He doesn't, because he knows what it would do to the support infrastructure of NYC. Ask the farmers who in the past year had to let crops rot in the fields, because Americans would not fill the job vacancies, how they feel about immigration. And so forth and so on, but there it is.
Actually you aren't even a RINO if you suppoprt the things you do. So your solution in the face of high unemployment is to open the doors to anyone who wants to come, regardless of what they have to offer. That makes as much much sense as the government thinking the way to control defecits is to increase spending. The reason the jobs you mention are not being filled by Americans is because too much is given to people in the form of public assistance that they can get by without it.
Melonie
10-20-2010, 08:17 AM
The reason the jobs you mention are not being filled by Americans is because too much is given to people in the form of public assistance that they can get by without it.
Not wanting to drift off topic, but ... I guess this also applies to illegal immigrants in the USA who via fake ID etc. or via 'anchor babies' wind up being eligible for a cornucopia of social welfare benefits. At any rate ...
In New York, and undoubtedly in many other US states with generous social welfare programs, the 'equivalent cash value' of those social welfare benefits really adds up. For example, medicaid replaces something like $5,000 a year worth of health insurance premiums / copays. Food stamps replaces something like $3,000 a year worth of purchased food. Section 8 housing replaces something like $3,000 a year worth of out-of-pocket rent payments. Low income utilities replaces something like $1,500 a year worth of electricity bills. Heating assistance replaces something like $ 1,500 a year worth of gas/oil bills. So in essence, these state gov'ts are creating a 'moral hazard' situation where a person earning $14,000 a year receives another $14,000 worth of 'free' benefits from social welfare programs ... but where the same person earning $25,000 a year ( via more hours worked, more job responsibility assumed, more education etc. ) loses eligibility for those social welfare programs and must pony up full price for health insurance premiums / co-pays. food, rent, electricity and oil/gas.
The end result would be that putting forth the effort to achieve an $11,000 a year pay increase for themselves actually REDUCES that person's standard of living by $3,000 per year !!! This 'moral hazard' situation has been documented to cause low income workers to refuse overtime, to refuse promotions, to outright quit their jobs etc. in order to insure that their officially reported income levels do not exceed the state social welfare program benefit eligibility threshold. Also, this very same 'moral hazard' situation also motivates many 'officially' low income workers to seek 'under the table' work ... from exotic dancing to construction to drug sales ... a situation which provides the 'best of both worlds' i.e. social welfare benefit coverage plus tens ot thousands of dollars per year in 'walking around' money !
Where immigrants ( both legal and illegal ) are concerned, this 'moral hazard' now creates an entirely different paradigm than that which existed historically for earlier 'waves' of US immigrants. Unless today's immigrants are able to find jobs that ( officially ) pay $40,000+ a year, their de-facto standard of living will not be significantly better than if they were ( officially ) earning $15,000 a year with full eligibility for social welfare benefits. Thus in real world terms, virtually every low skill immigrant ( both legal and illegal ) creates a significant tax burden on other higher skill level higher earning Americans which reduces their standard of living, which limits the future options for their children etc. THIS is the reason that virtually every other western gov't sets criteria for legal immigration that attempts to insure that immigrants possess the skills necessary to, at the very least, 'pay their own way'. However, since LBJ's 1965 immigration law changes, the US has been following a policy i.e. 'anchor babies' that ensures that a large percentage of legal immigrants are low skill level blood relatives of that 'anchor baby'.
It is no coincidence that Arizona and some other states are now attempting to pass state laws that require the parents of all new babies to present proof of citizenship / legal residence before hospitals in that state will issue a US birth certificate ( which renders the baby a US citizen). In the absence of such documentation of the parents' status, the hospital can only issue a certificate of live birth ( which does not confer US citizenship status to the baby ). See . Also, the widespread birth certificate fraud in Puerto Rico is now about to render all past US birth certificates issued by Puerto Rican authorities void, with 'replacement' birth certificates now requiring solid proof of citizenship. See . However, in New York and certain other states, state social welfare agencies don't bother to thoroughly investigate such 'trivial details' as actually being a US citizen before signing up new social welfare recipients !
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