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JayATee
10-29-2010, 11:05 AM
I dont agree with women who use abortion as birth control. I know a girl here who has had so many abortions I cant even count.
I had one, and before I was faced with that choice, I always told myself I would NEVER have an abortion. I felt so sick about it, and thought it was the most awful thing ever. But once the shoe was on my foot, it was hard, but I knew what i had to do. I had sex with a man who intentionally tore the condom because he wanted to have kids, and I didnt even like the man at all, I just liked his money. He disgusted me and I would have never wanted to have his child. I already had a child, I surely couldnt raise yet another one.. I was using the patch also, as birth control.. but that failed. I got pregnant, and told him he needs to help me pay for an abortion because Im not having a child he fooled me into conceiving. He then went on to call me all these terrible things, and didnt pay for it at all or be supportive.
Guess I put myself into that situation, but he had no right to tear up the protection. It killed me to have an abortion, I still wonder, 4 years later, how that baby would have been. I pray for him/her everyday to watch over us, and that I am sorry for what I did, but I just couldnt raise him/ her.
Ok, so I agree in certain situations. But if its over and over again, its no good.

::in tears:: wow its strange putting that experience in writing
^ :hug:

Zinaida
10-29-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm totally for it.

jack0177057
10-29-2010, 02:20 PM
*sigh* Because my ex husband never wanted one. He didn't have the temperament for it. It would've been unfair to everyone involved. I just had a miscarriage in February and due to several health conditions the windows closing (if it even exists at all) and I've been emotionally drained (and damaged) to the point where I don't know if I can handle getting into something serious with someone ever again. At least not to the point where children would be a discussion. It's all I want at this point and it's been dangled in front of me and taken away so many times I just don't think I can take anymore.

I'm sorry JayATee... How do you feel about adoption (either alone or with a new SO down the road)? There are a lot of beautiful children all over the world waiting for adoptive parents.

jack0177057
10-29-2010, 03:08 PM
You never know how you'll respond until you're there. I'm pro-choice. That doesn't mean I'm pro abortion. I don't think it's a good thing and that everyone should have one, however I do believe that everyone has the right to choose their own future. I 100% agree with it being moms decision entirely. It's her body. It's ultimately her life. She's the one waking up in the middle of the night. She's the one changing diapers and comforting screaming babies. She's the one who, if something were to go wrong, could die.

I agree with this, but here are the assumptions you are making:
(1) that she is acting rationally, and not in FEAR or PANIC-mode with a debilitated state of mind,
(2) that she has all the information necessary to fully evaluated ALL her options,
(3) that she is not being unduly pressured by her mother, father, SO, friends, financial situation, doctor, planned-parenthood, etc., and
(4) that she is fully aware of the potential long-term psychological (regret, guilt, etc.) and medical effects (risk of sterility) that an abortion may have on her.

I think back to the times in my life when I've been in serious trouble -scared and desperate - and the extents to which I would have gone to make the problem go away. I would have done things that I would have regretted later.

I don't mean to be critical of anyone who has been confronted with this extremely difficult decision. My only suggestion is that there should be an education and empowerment opportunity for women prior to them making this life-altering decision. Moms need to be placed in a protected zone (away from the pressure of other people) for a few hours or days and be educated/empowered with complete information about ALL of their options (e.g., child-care assistance while they go to school, financial assistance, government and faith-based support for single moms, adoption, etc.). They also need to know about the long-term potential psychological and medical effects of their decision. They should know about the current state of health and progress of their unborn baby. Then, they need time to think clearly and to weigh everything and make the best decision - the one they can live with.

I don't believe that most women that "choose" to have an abortion have been provided the opportunity to make a careful, sound and fully informed decision. A decision is not a "voluntary" choice when you have guns drawn and pointed at your head (figuratively speaking). It is also not a "voluntary" choice when you don't know what ALL your options are. These women need to escape the pressure for a while, and they need COMPLETE and OBJECTIVE information about all the relevant facts and the available alternatives and support.

_Avery_
10-29-2010, 03:16 PM
I agree with this, but here are the assumptions you are making:
(1) that she is acting rationally, and not in FEAR or PANIC-mode with a debilitated state of mind,
(2) that she has all the information necessary to fully evaluated ALL her options,
(3) that she is not being unduly pressured by her mother, father, SO, friends, financial situation, doctor, planned-parenthood, etc., and
(4) that she is fully aware of the potential long-term psychological (regret, guilt, etc.) and medical effects (risk of sterility) that an abortion may have on her.

I don't mean to be critical of anyone who has been confronted with this extremely difficult decision. My only suggestion is that there should be an education and empowerment opportunity for women prior to them making this life-altering decision. Moms need to be placed in a protected zone (away from the pressure of other people) for a few hours or days and be educated/empowered with complete information about ALL of their options (e.g., child-care assistance while they go to school, financial assistance, government and faith-based support for single moms, adoption, etc.). They also need to know about the long-term potential psychological and medical effects of their decision. They should know about the current state of health and progress of their unborn baby. Then, they need time to think clearly and to weigh everything and make the best decision - the one they can live with.

I don't believe that most women that "choose" to have an abortion have been provided the opportunity to make a careful, sound and fully informed decision. I think back to the times in my life when I've been in serious trouble -scared and desperate - and the extents to which I would have gone to make the problem go away. I would have done things that I would have regretted later.

A decision is not a "voluntary" choice when you have guns drawn and pointed at your head (figuratively speaking). It is also not a "voluntary" choice when you don't know what ALL your options are. These women need to escape the pressure for a while, and they need COMPLETE and OBJECTIVE information about all the relevant facts and the available alternatives and support.


I mostly agree with this, but what about the mom's who have like 10 kids and are just living off the system? I'm not saying they should abort their children, but they really need to start practicing safe sex. You shouldn't have kids if you can't financially support them. I understand that at times, people need help.
(I know I have), but when it gets to the point that you keep having kids and expect the government to provide for them, then I think it's time to stop having kids. :-\

JayATee
10-29-2010, 03:16 PM
I agree with this, but here are the assumptions you are making:


I'm not making a single assumption. Thanks.

jack0177057
10-29-2010, 03:32 PM
I mostly agree with this, but what about the mom's who have like 10 kids and are just living off the system? I'm not saying they should abort their children, but they really need to start practicing safe sex. You shouldn't have kids if you can't financially support them. I understand that at times, people need help.
(I know I have), but when it gets to the point that you keep having kids and expect the government to provide for them, then I think it's time to stop having kids. :-\

Agreed. At some point (like after 3 or 4 kids), the government should encourage (not force) them to get sterilized. For example, the government can do this by conditioning financial assistance on sterilization or giving them some sort of financial incentive (like cash or tax credit/refund) for sterilization.

Yeah, I know sterilizations can be reversed. If reversed, they would either have to pay back the government for the incentive received or they would be charged with criminal fraud.

Kellydancer
10-29-2010, 04:22 PM
I mostly agree with this, but what about the mom's who have like 10 kids and are just living off the system? I'm not saying they should abort their children, but they really need to start practicing safe sex. You shouldn't have kids if you can't financially support them. I understand that at times, people need help.
(I know I have), but when it gets to the point that you keep having kids and expect the government to provide for them, then I think it's time to stop having kids. :-\

There's many issues with this (I don't mean you, I mean single parents on welfare). Unfortunately most of the welfare queens I knew kept having babies to get more welfare money (usually for drugs). That's why I support a stricter welfare system so only people who need it get it for a short time.


I'm sorry JayATee... How do you feel about adoption (either alone or with a new SO down the road)? There are a lot of beautiful children all over the world waiting for adoptive parents.

I was looking at the Illinois adoption website (forget the name) of all the kids who need homes in this state alone and there are many. People think the kids are all bad kids or special needs but not true. There are kids of all kinds. There are all races (in Illinois it's mostly black, but every race too), ages, etc. I actually narrowed my choices to 3-5 year old white girls (just to see how many in each group) and pulled up several cases. In one case there was a 3 year old blonde girl who was an orphan because she lost her parents in a car accident. Completely normal. I would seriously consider adopting.

KaylaM
10-30-2010, 07:08 AM
I dont agree with women who use abortion as birth control. I know a girl here who has had so many abortions I cant even count.
I had one, and before I was faced with that choice, I always told myself I would NEVER have an abortion. I felt so sick about it, and thought it was the most awful thing ever. But once the shoe was on my foot, it was hard, but I knew what i had to do. I had sex with a man who intentionally tore the condom because he wanted to have kids, and I didnt even like the man at all, I just liked his money. He disgusted me and I would have never wanted to have his child. I already had a child, I surely couldnt raise yet another one.. I was using the patch also, as birth control.. but that failed. I got pregnant, and told him he needs to help me pay for an abortion because Im not having a child he fooled me into conceiving. He then went on to call me all these terrible things, and didnt pay for it at all or be supportive.
Guess I put myself into that situation, but he had no right to tear up the protection. It killed me to have an abortion, I still wonder, 4 years later, how that baby would have been. I pray for him/her everyday to watch over us, and that I am sorry for what I did, but I just couldnt raise him/ her.
Ok, so I agree in certain situations. But if its over and over again, its no good.

::in tears:: wow its strange putting that experience in writing

:hug:

JayATee
10-30-2010, 10:18 AM
I'm sorry JayATee... How do you feel about adoption (either alone or with a new SO down the road)? There are a lot of beautiful children all over the world waiting for adoptive parents.

I don't want to adopt I want to be pregnant. I want to get through the whole experience from beginning to end, and at the end I want a beautiful healthy baby that's all mine.

Not to mention, do you have any idea what it takes to actually adopt?

sugartaste
10-30-2010, 02:06 PM
Ugh, I hate when men think they know what's better for a woman who's pregnant, than the actual woman herself. Or when they assume women are just naive little girls who don't know what an abortion "really" entails. Just..ugh.

Kellydancer
10-31-2010, 12:11 AM
Ugh, I hate when men think they know what's better for a woman who's pregnant, than the actual woman herself. Or when they assume women are just naive little girls who don't know what an abortion "really" entails. Just..ugh.

I hate it because many of these guys hate women in general. I hate both guys running for governor in Illinois, but the Republican candidate is strongly anti choice even when women die. He also believes women should be paid less and he hates gays as well. Even though the Democratic candidate loves to spend he's pro choice and pro woman. Guys who are against abortion even in his case are dangerous and these guys hate women except when they are in the kitchen.

missplayful
10-31-2010, 12:36 AM
I hate it because many of these guys hate women in general. I hate both guys running for governor in Illinois, but the Republican candidate is strongly anti choice even when women die. He also believes women should be paid less and he hates gays as well. Even though the Democratic candidate loves to spend he's pro choice and pro woman. Guys who are against abortion even in his case are dangerous and these guys hate women except when they are in the kitchen.


Those guys should go hell then:)))

KaylaM
10-31-2010, 05:35 AM
Not to mention, do you have any idea what it takes to actually adopt?


Some places have an age requirement like 32 and up

A good and stable home environment

Clean background/They'll do an intensive background check on you.

and a lot more ...

JayATee
10-31-2010, 10:27 AM
Some places have an age requirement like 32 and up

A good and stable home environment

Clean background/They'll do an intensive background check on you.

and a lot more ...

This is the way downplayed/edited version.

Kellydancer
10-31-2010, 10:47 AM
Those guys should go hell then:)))

This Republican running for governor is a bad choice and quite scary. How anyone could be against abortion in ALL cases and feel women should be paid less (he actually proposed a bill in Illinois allowing employers to discriminate based on gender and sexual preference) is beyond me and not "Christian" by any means.

Promnesiac
10-31-2010, 12:52 PM
My responses in bold.


I agree with this, but here are the assumptions you are making:
(1) that she is acting rationally, and not in FEAR or PANIC-mode with a debilitated state of mind,

For fun, let's pretend that this is the case. If so, reacting with fear or panic because you find you're pregnant is a sign you shouldn't be having a child.

(2) that she has all the information necessary to fully evaluated ALL her options,

"ALL of her options" meaning what? Either terminate and move on with her life or carry an unwanted child to term? How is the latter even reasonable on any level? How is it fair to either the mother OR the potential child?

(4) that she is fully aware of the potential long-term psychological (regret, guilt, etc.) and medical effects (risk of sterility) that an abortion may have on her.

Risk of sterility is another scientifically unsound bugbear anti-abortionists pull out of their hats when grasping at straws to intellectually support their wholly emotional arguments. Statistically speaking, there is LESS chance of permanent damage during a normal termination than during a live birth. "[L]ong-term psychological effects" wouldn't be such a risk if we didn't ridiculously shame women who have terminated pregnancies.

I don't believe that most women that "choose" to have an abortion have been provided the opportunity to make a careful, sound and fully informed decision. A decision is not a "voluntary" choice when you have guns drawn and pointed at your head (figuratively speaking). It is also not a "voluntary" choice when you don't know what ALL your options are. These women need to escape the pressure for a while, and they need COMPLETE and OBJECTIVE information about all the relevant facts and the available alternatives and support.

This is just staggeringly patronizing. Abortion is in most cases absolutely a voluntary choice. Contrary to what you inexplicably believe, most women do not pine for years about it, or wonder about the fate of the bundle of cells that could have been (but was not) a person. Some do, yes, but for most it is a reasonable, obvious choice when faced with the decision. Want a child? No? THEN DON'T HAVE ONE. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to the kid you make.

You sound like one of those "women's options" centers which masquerade as clinics and in fact pressure women to keep fetuses they don't want. Terms like "unborn child" make me roll my eyes so hard my face hurts. Inflammatory, emotional nonsense. If it is not viable outside the womb, it's not a person. It is a potential person, and it is absolutely the woman's choice whether or not she wants to bring it to fruition.

Even people who say they're "pro-choice" I notice have this "well it's SO awful when you have to do this awful thing".....making women feel guilty, making them second-guess themselves, and perpetuating a mood of shame and fear around what is, at the end of the day, a medical procedure.

If you as a woman (which, funnily enough, you're not and therefore have not a shred of an ounce of a hair of a say in) decide that abortion is not for you, then that's fine. But don't you dare project your emotions onto anyone else -- because most of us consider ownership of the cellular contents of our uteruses to be sacrosanct.

shasta
10-31-2010, 01:02 PM
Some places have an age requirement like 32 and up

A good and stable home environment

Clean background/They'll do an intensive background check on you.

and a lot more ...

And a LOT of money and a LOT of waiting.

JayATee
10-31-2010, 01:13 PM
My responses in bold.



This is just staggeringly patronizing. Abortion is in most cases absolutely a voluntary choice. Contrary to what you inexplicably believe, most women do not pine for years about it, or wonder about the fate of the bundle of cells that could have been (but was not) a person. Some do, yes, but for most it is a reasonable, obvious choice when faced with the decision. Want a child? No? THEN DON'T HAVE ONE. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to the kid you make.

You sound like one of those "women's options" centers which masquerade as clinics and in fact pressure women to keep fetuses they don't want. Terms like "unborn child" make me roll my eyes so hard my face hurts. Inflammatory, emotional nonsense. If it is not viable outside the womb, it's not a person. It is a potential person, and it is absolutely the woman's choice whether or not she wants to bring it to fruition.

Even people who say they're "pro-choice" I notice have this "well it's SO awful when you have to do this awful thing".....making women feel guilty, making them second-guess themselves, and perpetuating a mood of shame and fear around what is, at the end of the day, a medical procedure.

If you as a woman (which, funnily enough, you're not and therefore have not a shred of an ounce of a hair of a say in) decide that abortion is not for you, then that's fine. But don't you dare project your emotions onto anyone else -- because most of us consider ownership of the cellular contents of our uteruses to be sacrosanct.

Thank you for taking the time to put all this into words. You said everything I wanted to yet didn't have the patience to actually write.

Elvia
10-31-2010, 03:46 PM
I don't mean to be critical of anyone who has been confronted with this extremely difficult decision. My only suggestion is that there should be an education and empowerment opportunity for women prior to them making this life-altering decision. Moms need to be placed in a protected zone (away from the pressure of other people) for a few hours or days and be educated/empowered with complete information about ALL of their options (e.g., child-care assistance while they go to school, financial assistance, government and faith-based support for single moms, adoption, etc.). They also need to know about the long-term potential psychological and medical effects of their decision. They should know about the current state of health and progress of their unborn baby. Then, they need time to think clearly and to weigh everything and make the best decision - the one they can live with.

I don't believe that most women that "choose" to have an abortion have been provided the opportunity to make a careful, sound and fully informed decision. A decision is not a "voluntary" choice when you have guns drawn and pointed at your head (figuratively speaking). It is also not a "voluntary" choice when you don't know what ALL your options are. These women need to escape the pressure for a while, and they need COMPLETE and OBJECTIVE information about all the relevant facts and the available alternatives and support.

FUCK THAT. If I am dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, I do NOT need to be taken away from my community and the support system I would choose for MYSELF to be sent to some bullshit scary re-education camp. This post is disgusting. I can do my own research and make my own choices and live with the consequences myself thank you. I do not need some jackass man to save me from myself because he feels I can't be trusted to make my own damn life choices. Life is full of lots of difficult decisions, do you think we should all be dragged off unwillingly to some damn internment camp before we're allowed to make any other decisions? Probably not. This post reeks of misogyny. Blech!

Promnesiac
10-31-2010, 06:37 PM
FUCK THAT. If I am dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, I do NOT need to be taken away from my community and the support system I would choose for MYSELF to be sent to some bullshit scary re-education camp. This post is disgusting. I can do my own research and make my own choices and live with the consequences myself thank you. I do not need some jackass man to save me from myself because he feels I can't be trusted to make my own damn life choices. Life is full of lots of difficult decisions, do you think we should all be dragged off unwillingly to some damn internment camp before we're allowed to make any other decisions? Probably not. This post reeks of misogyny. Blech!

If I could give you 400 thanks for this, I would.

I would never presume to tell an anti-abortionist why they should agree with me, or that they should make the same choices I would. Curious how they have no problem inserting themselves into my life and acting like they have a right to tell me a single fucking word about my choices. I think that they're not in full possession of the facts, and I think that they're not thinking rationally. But the difference is that I"m aware that it's none of my fucking business.

I find few things more depressing than seeing a teenager with a child. I always wonder if they weren't swayed by these hateful, insidious arguments about "options", if they weren't lied to and told made-up horror stories about "partial birth abortions" and "dangers of infertility", if they weren't led to feel that they were somehow obligated to change the rest of their lives because of one mistake.

ETA: I don't think that all young women who have had kids have made a mistake. Some really want to and are ready for it. I want to make that clear - I'm not shitting on all young moms. My mom was 19 when I was born...*shrug* sometimes it's right. It just saddens me when I see obvious KIDS with babies they don't know how to handle and probably didn't want.

Kellydancer
10-31-2010, 07:34 PM
If I could give you 400 thanks for this, I would.

I would never presume to tell an anti-abortionist why they should agree with me, or that they should make the same choices I would. Curious how they have no problem inserting themselves into my life and acting like they have a right to tell me a single fucking word about my choices. I think that they're not in full possession of the facts, and I think that they're not thinking rationally. But the difference is that I"m aware that it's none of my fucking business.

I find few things more depressing than seeing a teenager with a child. I always wonder if they weren't swayed by these hateful, insidious arguments about "options", if they weren't lied to and told made-up horror stories about "partial birth abortions" and "dangers of infertility", if they weren't led to feel that they were somehow obligated to change the rest of their lives because of one mistake.

ETA: I don't think that all young women who have had kids have made a mistake. Some really want to and are ready for it. I want to make that clear - I'm not shitting on all young moms. My mom was 19 when I was born...*shrug* sometimes it's right. It just saddens me when I see obvious KIDS with babies they don't know how to handle and probably didn't want.

Depending on the area, the teen moms might be a bigger issue than abortion. I lived in an area that went from upper middle class to ghetto and the issue of teen parenthood really changed. When it was upper middle class, yes teen pregnancies happened but in many cases the teens married or the girl was a single mom but through the help of her parents she graduated school and got a career. When it turned ghetto, I saw girls getting pregnant intentionally welfare and to have a "baby daddy". Most of these guys left and of course they had multiple babies with many women. One of my neighbors actually got two girls pregnant at the same time. Unfortunately most of these kids will never be productive members of society and many will repeat this cycle. I've tried helping several of these girls, but it didn't help.

I think there are several things that need to be done to break this cycle. One, tell these teens they don't have to have sex with someone because of this. Two, make sure they are protected with condoms. Three, get rid of the entitlement system and make sure everyone knows they are involved with a pregnancy, they pay not me.

Promnesiac
10-31-2010, 07:40 PM
Depending on the area, the teen moms might be a bigger issue than abortion. I lived in an area that went from upper middle class to ghetto and the issue of teen parenthood really changed. When it was upper middle class, yes teen pregnancies happened but in many cases the teens married or the girl was a single mom but through the help of her parents she graduated school and got a career. When it turned ghetto, I saw girls getting pregnant intentionally welfare and to have a "baby daddy". Most of these guys left and of course they had multiple babies with many women. One of my neighbors actually got two girls pregnant at the same time. Unfortunately most of these kids will never be productive members of society and many will repeat this cycle. I've tried helping several of these girls, but it didn't help.

I think there are several things that need to be done to break this cycle. One, tell these teens they don't have to have sex with someone because of this. Two, make sure they are protected with condoms. Three, get rid of the entitlement system and make sure everyone knows they are involved with a pregnancy, they pay not me.

I agree with you to a point, except I don't see abortion as a "problem" on any level. Yes, teens should be better educated. Yes, they should be protecting themselves. But when there is unwanted pregnancy (and god knows there will be no matter how much we try to teach headstrong kids), abortions should be available safe and free of charge (because a lot of these girls simply might not be able to afford them) so that we don't perpetuate this cycle of kids making kids they neither know how to nor want to care for.

Kellydancer
10-31-2010, 07:45 PM
I agree with you to a point, except I don't see abortion as a "problem" on any level. Yes, teens should be better educated. Yes, they should be protecting themselves. But when there is unwanted pregnancy (and god knows there will be no matter how much we try to teach headstrong kids), abortions should be available safe and free of charge (because a lot of these girls simply might not be able to afford them) so that we don't perpetuate this cycle of kids making kids they neither know how to nor want to care for.

I don't think abortion is a problem, I wish more of these girls had abortions. I tried to talk a friend of mine into an abortion when she got pregnant while unemployed. I believe in having money for free abortions, but am mixed on tax payer funded. I would have no problem paying for abortion but others do and I don't think they should have to pay if they don't want to.

Promnesiac
10-31-2010, 07:49 PM
I don't think abortion is a problem, I wish more of these girls had abortions. I tried to talk a friend of mine into an abortion when she got pregnant while unemployed. I believe in having money for free abortions, but am mixed on tax payer funded. I would have no problem paying for abortion but others do and I don't think they should have to pay if they don't want to.

That's a good point. If someone had a moral stance against it, it would be unfair to make them fund it. I hate that my taxes go to support the death penalty, and I wish that were a choice I could make to support or not.

Kellydancer
10-31-2010, 07:53 PM
That's a good point. If someone had a moral stance against it, it would be unfair to make them fund it. I hate that my taxes go to support the death penalty, and I wish that were a choice I could make to support or not.

Exactly. I personally have no problem paying for abortions (I look at it that I'd rather pay a one time deal than 18 years) but other people for religious reasons oppose paying for it. This goes for other issues too. I generally don't support the death penalty, the war in Iraq, companies that outsource, etc. Abortion is a controversial topic and that's why it's not covered in the universal healthcare debate (though various insurances cover it for medical reasons).

eagle2
10-31-2010, 08:55 PM
Jack,

I'm not trying to instigate anything or persecute you, but based on your comments in this forum, you really do seem to have very little respect for women. Do you really think that for most women, the decision to have an abortion is something they take very lightly? Do you really think that most women who get abortions don't take the time to seriously think about what they are about to do?

You seem to think that women are no more capable of making intelligent choices than little children, and they need adults to guide them. Women are the ones who have to live with the consequences of their decision, not some strangers giving them "counseling" against their wishes. Women are capable of making decisions on their own. They're not going to automatically get an abortion just because someone else tells them to, just like they're not going to have sex with someone just because someone else tells them to. Women have brains just like you. They're fully able to think and make decisions just like you are.

I don't even think you're aware of your problem. There are some men who are very open about their beliefs that women are inferior, and openly admit it. I really do think that in your mind, you're completely respectful of women, and you're not even aware of how condescending some of the things that you do and say are. May I suggest that you think about how you would feel if someone said/did the same things to you, that you say/do to women? How do you think you would feel if after someone forcibly had sex with you after you told them "No", someone told you this happened because you have low self esteem? How would you like it if after telling your SO you weren't interested in having sex, she just continued with foreplay until you eventually had sex with her? How would you like being forcibly placed in isolation for a few days and forcibly given advice because someone didn't think you were capable of making a decision on your own? I doubt you would like this very much and most women wouldn't either. You will even support things for others that you know are wrong for yourself. You have stated that you do use condoms to prevent pregnancies and STD's, yet you agree with your church's policy of discouraging/preventing others from doing the same. How would you like it if you were the one that was being prevented from getting condoms and you had to choose between risking unwanted pregnancy or HIV, or not have sex at all? Please try placing yourself in other peoples' position before you start making judgments about them. Maybe then you will understand why so many people are offended by some of the things you say.

Elvia
10-31-2010, 08:58 PM
^^^ I cannot thank you for that post enough. I really hope Jack considers what you have to say.

ashiepants
11-01-2010, 12:22 AM
I'm very pro choice. I think women get the short end of the stick when it comes to pregnancy. Once that stick turns blue, you're faced with a huge decision to make, and huge responsibility that oftentimes gets cast aside by your partner/guy who knocked you up. Women need to look out for themselves, and if they don't have a support system or a supportive partner, then she's in her right to be able to choose to abort. Why should she get stuck having to deal with something as monumental as a pregnancy and child when she has no man to stand by her and the baby? (first trimester abortions only though, anything more than that is sick) And of course, in the case of rapes, danger to the mother, etc...of course abortion is obviously necessary.

However, I do believe that there should be a limit on abortions. In Canada, because of our healthcare system, abortions are free of cost. But I think that only the first two should be covered, and if a woman comes in a third time, she'll have to pay a huge fee unless she consents to getting her tubes tied. Women who don't practice safe sex (and men too) should be neutered IMO. Too many unwanted babies out there, and too many people leeching off the system. If you can't respect your body and your life enough to keep yourself from getting knocked up, then you don't deserve your uterus in the first place. I might sound harsh, but women like that shouldn't be able to breed. Just my two cents.

KaylaM
11-01-2010, 04:31 AM
Jack,

I'm not trying to instigate anything or persecute you, but based on your comments in this forum, you really do seem to have very little respect for women. Do you really think that for most women, the decision to have an abortion is something they take very lightly? Do you really think that most women who get abortions don't take the time to seriously think about what they are about to do?

You seem to think that women are no more capable of making intelligent choices than little children, and they need adults to guide them. Women are the ones who have to live with the consequences of their decision, not some strangers giving them "counseling" against their wishes. Women are capable of making decisions on their own. They're not going to automatically get an abortion just because someone else tells them to, just like they're not going to have sex with someone just because someone else tells them to. Women have brains just like you. They're fully able to think and make decisions just like you are.

I don't even think you're aware of your problem. There are some men who are very open about their beliefs that women are inferior, and openly admit it. I really do think that in your mind, you're completely respectful of women, and you're not even aware of how condescending some of the things that you do and say are. May I suggest that you think about how you would feel if someone said/did the same things to you, that you say/do to women? How do you think you would feel if after someone forcibly had sex with you after you told them "No", someone told you this happened because you have low self esteem? How would you like it if after telling your SO you weren't interested in having sex, she just continued with foreplay until you eventually had sex with her? How would you like being forcibly placed in isolation for a few days and forcibly given advice because someone didn't think you were capable of making a decision on your own? I doubt you would like this very much and most women wouldn't either. You will even support things for others that you know are wrong for yourself. You have stated that you do use condoms to prevent pregnancies and STD's, yet you agree with your church's policy of discouraging/preventing others from doing the same. How would you like it if you were the one that was being prevented from getting condoms and you had to choose between risking unwanted pregnancy or HIV, or not have sex at all? Please try placing yourself in other peoples' position before you start making judgments about them. Maybe then you will understand why so many people are offended by some of the things you say.


Love this!

jack0177057
11-01-2010, 01:40 PM
Jack,
I'm not trying to instigate anything or persecute you, but based on your comments in this forum, you really do seem to have very little respect for women. Do you really think that for most women, the decision to have an abortion is something they take very lightly? Do you really think that most women who get abortions don't take the time to seriously think about what they are about to do?

You seem to think that women are no more capable of making intelligent choices than little children, and they need adults to guide them. Women are the ones who have to live with the consequences of their decision, not some strangers giving them "counseling" against their wishes. Women are capable of making decisions on their own. They're not going to automatically get an abortion just because someone else tells them to, just like they're not going to have sex with someone just because someone else tells them to. Women have brains just like you. They're fully able to think and make decisions just like you are.

When did I say that most women "are no more capable of making intelligent choices than little children".

I merely said that I agree with pro-choice, but only if the girl is given full information of all options and relief from societal pressures. I was not referring to adult women, but to young girls - mostly teenagers, who are the ones that often make the wrong decision (based on fear alone) and later regret it.

To say that most 16, 17 or even 18 year old girls, who are petrified of telling their parents about their pregnancy, are sufficiently mature to weigh all their options, overcome their fear and anxiety and make an intelligent choice, all by themselves, is ludicrous.

If anyone thinks this is sexist - then I'll balance it - 16, 17 or even 18 year old boys are no better, only worst. A boy that age is either going to (1) want to have the baby, but only because he doesn't bear the real responsibility (i.e., he gets to play "father" on his free time, but doesn't bear any of the real responsibility) or (2) want the girl to have an abortion (like its no big deal), and will not consider the effect this decision will have on her.


I don't even think you're aware of your problem. There are some men who are very open about their beliefs that women are inferior, and openly admit it. I really do think that in your mind, you're completely respectful of women, and you're not even aware of how condescending some of the things that you do and say are. May I suggest that you think about how you would feel if someone said/did the same things to you, that you say/do to women? How do you think you would feel if after someone forcibly had sex with you after you told them "No", someone told you this happened because you have low self esteem?

I'm not going to respond to this. You are using references to a sensitive thread, in which many people (including women) said things that were insentitive. I was the first one to apologize and the OP graciously accepted my apology. You references to this sensitive thread, merely to score "points" is shameful.


How would you like it if after telling your SO you weren't interested in having sex, she just continued with foreplay until you eventually had sex with her?

Ridiculous question - I would LOVE it - but, that's just me.

If you really want to know,... you don't,... you're just an instigator... but, I'll tell you anyway. I had a heart-to-heart with my GF about this and she said the following:

(1) Because I often come home from work late (we live together), she's often tired and not in the mood (plus, she doesn't want to have to shower again), but when we start kissing and fooling around, she usually gets in the mood. She wouldn't ask me to make her cum first (with clitoral stimulation), unless she was really turned on, so she thought the question itself was silly. (I.e. - My question to her - Do you only pretend to change your mind because I pressure you?)

(2) I asked her whether I should wait for her to initiate sex, and she said she's used to me initiating sex, and she thinks she's be too timid to initiate sex. She want's me to initiate.

(3) She said she does feel some pressure to have sex with me, because of my high libido, but she doesn't feel forced. She knows that I would respect her clear unequivocal decision not to have sex, but she also feels bad rejecting me, because she knows how much I crave/need sex. Her compromise is to give me a handjob or a quickie.

(4) I asked her, what should I change about my approach to sex. She said she doesn't want anything to change. If she's not in the mood, even after kissing and messing around, she's willing to give me a HJ, and if I can settle for that (which I do), then she's comfortable with the way things are.


How would you like being forcibly placed in isolation for a few days and forcibly given advice because someone didn't think you were capable of making a decision on your own? I doubt you would like this very much and most women wouldn't either. You will even support things for others that you know are wrong for yourself.

When did I say "forcibly placed in isolation"? You have a silly imagination. Withdrawal should be an option, not mandatory. It should be a protection available - like a woman's shelter, which protects women while they make the important decision whether to leave their husbands.


You have stated that you do use condoms to prevent pregnancies and STD's, yet you agree with your church's policy of discouraging/preventing others from doing the same. How would you like it if you were the one that was being prevented from getting condoms and you had to choose between risking unwanted pregnancy or HIV, or not have sex at all? Please try placing yourself in other peoples' position before you start making judgments about them. Maybe then you will understand why so many people are offended by some of the things you say.

I'm very impressed by how interested you are in my personal opinions (across many threads) and how hard you try to twist them. With so many lovely women to obsess over, why are you obsessing over me?

Two points on your arguments about religion:

Number One: My church holds the the Christian God of the New Testament designed man and woman to be fruitfull and multiply. If you believe in the sacredness of New Testament, then, we can debate scripture and condom use. If you don't believe in the sacredness of Holy Scripture, then how my church interprets the New Testament is irrelevant to you. Why does a non-believer argue about how my church interprets the New Testament? Its ludicrous, isn't it? That's like me arguing with a Jew about how their synogogue interprets the Torah.


Number Two: I do not use my church to judge others. In fact, I acknowledge that I am no saint, I am a sinner. I do a lot of things that are inconsistent with my church - but, I don't try to change my church to accomodate me. It doesn't work that way.

I accept my shortcomings, and I'll even graciously accept your criticism. Whereas you,... on the other hand, think that you are above it all... You make the most hostile and ridiculous anti-religion arguments - arguing that Christians, like Hitler, want to exterminate the Jews because the Jews killed Christ.

You continued to argue this (ad naseum) even after I produced for you links showing dozens of texts that proved that the Nazis were not acting on religious conviction, but rather on sheer racism.