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YKnot
11-04-2010, 07:07 PM
I agree that Democrats are pussies, and they need to get their shit together and take a stand.

But you know what? Starting January 1 of 2011, I once again get complete health, vision, and dental coverage from my Mom's insurance through her work. It used to be I could only get it through the age of 22 if I was in school full-time. Now, thanks to Obama's health care reform, I get total coverage again, and my taxes have been lower these past two years than they ever were when Bush was in office. So it really does make a difference, and this stuff really does effect people's lives.

Hmmmm, wonder why my health care coverage is Higher?

hockeybobby
11-04-2010, 07:14 PM
My vote gets the Green Party a buck and a half in funding. Every little bit helps.

nicole84
11-04-2010, 07:27 PM
if you dont believe in the system and dont vote and think they are all evil, then i hope you never try to take advantage of things like medicare, medicaid, food stamps, WIC, social security, or any other gov't run benefit/assistance program.

since those are all run by the system you so hate.

As has been said in the past....by choosing not to choose, you still make a choice.

one drop on a bucket might not count for much, but put thousands, or millions of them together and you get something significant.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 07:34 PM
I vote because I want to be able to get an abortion if I ever get raped.

Which, according to some candidates, shouldn't be an option.

You know, silly stuff like that.

I'm quoting myself.



As has been said in the past....by choosing not to choose, you still make a choice.

one drop on a bucket might not count for much, but put thousands, or millions of them together and you get something significant.

Yes. Yes. Yes. It also sickens me to think of all of the Democrats sitting at home wallowing in political apathy while the country goes to shit in the Republican majority.

Elvia
11-04-2010, 07:36 PM
^^^ I don't think it's that black and white. You don't have to hate every aspect of the government or love every aspect. If you pay your taxes, you have a right to take advantage of the very programs you helped support when you need them, even if you don't feel there's any issues worth voting on in an election, even if you feel there is more integrity in not voting than choosing between the lesser of two evils. Voting isn't the only way of supporting your country and community, voting isn't the only way of being politically involved.

Elvia
11-04-2010, 07:38 PM
Hmmmm, wonder why my health care coverage is Higher?

I think the reason hers has stayed the same price has more to do with the employer she's getting her health insurance through than any real healthcare reform. Most everyone's health insurance prices are rising, and will likely continue to.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Blergh. I should never have subscribed to a political thread. :ill:

Elvia
11-04-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm quoting myself.



Yes. Yes. Yes. It also sickens me to think of all of the Democrats sitting at home wallowing in political apathy while the country goes to shit in the Republican majority.


The democrats have brought it upon themselves by being pussies who would rather just roll over to the republicans than actually fight to keep the campaign promises they've made. Just look at Biden, calling people "whiners" for criticising Obama for not living up to his promises. The people elected them based on certain promises, and when THEY don't live up to it, they blame us, the people who voted for them. Of course we are becoming apathetic when we elect candidates to do something and then have the blame thrown back at us when they continually cave at the first sign of having to fight for us, i.e., do the damn job we hired them to do.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 07:44 PM
The democrats have brought it upon themselves by being pussies who would rather just roll over to the republicans than actually fight to keep the campaign promises they've made. Just look at Biden, calling people "whiners" for criticising Obama for not living up to his promises. The people elected them based on certain promises, and when THEY don't live up to it, they blame us, the people who voted for them. Of course we are becoming apathetic when we elect candidates to do something and then have the blame thrown back at us when they continually cave at the first sign of having to fight for us, i.e., do the damn job we hired them to do.

In response to this, I quote myself again.


Blergh. I should never have subscribed to a political thread. :ill:

Aaaaand bow out.

eagle2
11-04-2010, 07:45 PM
I vote because I want to be able to get an abortion if I ever get raped.

Which, according to some candidates, shouldn't be an option.

You know, silly stuff like that.

When Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle was asked about what a 13 year old girl who was raped by her father should do about her pregnancy, she said we should "err on the side of life" and talked about turning a lemon situation into lemonade.

Republican Senate candidate Ken Buck also opposes allowing rape victims to get an abortion. As a prosecutor, he refused to prosecute a rape case because the victim was drunk and let the perpetrator in, even though the perpetrator admitted she said "no". Another reason why he refused to prosecute is because the victim allegedly had an abortion. (She said she had a miscarriage)

What's scary is, both of these candidates came close to winning. This is why women, and rational people in general, need to vote.

nicole84
11-04-2010, 07:49 PM
the problem is that the US is a country of people who want instant results. instant gratification.

obama has been president for less than a full 2yrs and they are pissed that he didnt wave a magic wand and turn the country into utopia.

change happens over time, not overnight. I voted for him and still stand by him.

then again, im someone who has not missed an election since i was 18, loves politics, is a liberal (though lean conservative fiscally), in law school, and think there are too many damn uninformed, stupid people out there voting.

eagle2
11-04-2010, 07:49 PM
Perhaps.....but knowing that Athena has our backs makes me feel alot better should it ever occur ;) .



On the cali political front - we lost our ganja quest (booooooooooo!), but at least our dysfunctional state is still blue :).

Yes, I would definitely want Athena on my side, in the unlikely event a zombie apocalypse should occur. Unfortunately, right now the Republicans are a much bigger threat to our country than zombies.

What's the difference between the captain of the Titanic and the Republican Party?

The captain of the Titanic was trying to avoid the iceberg.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 07:50 PM
When Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle was asked about what a 13 year old girl who was raped by her father should do about her pregnancy, she said we should "err on the side of life" and talked about turning a lemon situation into lemonade.



Republican Senate candidate Ken Buck also opposes allowing rape victims to get an abortion. As a prosecutor, he refused to prosecute a rape case because the victim was drunk and let the perpetrator in, even though the perpetrator admitted she said "no". Another reason why he refused to prosecute is because the victim allegedly had an abortion. (She said she had a miscarriage)



What's scary is, both of these candidates came close to winning. This is why women, and rational people in general, need to vote.

^Same in Wisconsin. One of the candidates for...was it Congress?...pro-life even in the face of rape, health risk to woman, etc etc.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 07:53 PM
the problem is that the US is a country of people who want instant results. instant gratification.

obama has been president for less than a full 2yrs and they are pissed that he didnt wave a magic wand and turn the country into utopia.

change happens over time, not overnight. I voted for him and still stand by him.

then again, im someone who has not missed an election since i was 18, loves politics, is a liberal (though lean conservative fiscally), in law school, and think there are too many damn uninformed, stupid people out there voting.

Exactly. I mean seriously, it takes some couples years just to get through the divorce process. It's gonna take longer than 2 years to put a country back together.

Elvia
11-04-2010, 08:04 PM
the problem is that the US is a country of people who want instant results. instant gratification.

obama has been president for less than a full 2yrs and they are pissed that he didnt wave a magic wand and turn the country into utopia.


No, we're pissed because Obama promised us real health care reform and without much of a fight, rolled over and gave us a "solution" that now just requires us all to give money to the same corrupt people who have been fucking us over forever. We're pissed because he stabbed the gay community in the back when he promised again and again to do away with DOMA and then turned around and openly supported it. So please don't reduce our very real and valid objections by pretending we want him to "wave a magic wand."

Elvia
11-04-2010, 08:06 PM
Aaaaand bow out.

Feel free to go ahead and do that anytime now.

nicole84
11-04-2010, 08:06 PM
No, we're pissed because Obama promised us real health care reform and without much of a fight, rolled over and gave us a "solution" that now just requires us all to give money to the same corrupt people who have been fucking us over forever. We're pissed because he stabbed the gay community in the back when he promised again and again to do away with DOMA and then turned around and openly supported it. So please don't reduce our very real and valid objections by pretending we want him to "wave a magic wand." What an empty, childish thing to say.

if you waited for "perfect" to get passed, we'd all be dead first.

Get something basic, with some basic starting points passed, and then work on it. it's getting a foot in the door quickly, rather than waiting forever to just smash the door down.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 08:07 PM
Feel free to go ahead and do that anytime.

...Ouch?

Elvia
11-04-2010, 08:10 PM
^^^ I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, I don't actually want you to leave the thread. I just find it irksome when people continually announce that they are leaving a thread, as if it must be announced. Even more so when they do it repeatedly. Even more so when they do so as a "response" to something I've posted. Even more so when they apparently have no interest in leaving the thread, just periodically announcing that they are leaving the thread. It often looks like they want to portray themselves as being above it, while still continuing to participate. I just don't get it. If you want to contribute, do so. If you don't, don't. *shrug*

Athenathefabulous
11-04-2010, 08:12 PM
--------

MarvelGirl
11-04-2010, 08:14 PM
if you dont believe in the system and dont vote and think they are all evil, then i hope you never try to take advantage of things like medicare, medicaid, food stamps, WIC, social security, or any other gov't run benefit/assistance program.



Call me crazy but I think people who pay their taxes but don't vote have more right to assistance programs and benefits than those who vote religiously but never pay a dime in taxes.

charlie61
11-04-2010, 08:16 PM
^^^ I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, I don't actually want you to leave the thread. I just find it irksome when people continually announce that they are leaving a thread, as if it must be announced. Even more so when they do it repeatedly. Even more so when they do so as a "response" to something I've posted. Even more so when they apparently have no interest in leaving the thread, just periodically announcing that they are leaving the thread. I just don't get it. If you want to contribute, do so. If you don't, don't. *shrug*

Touché. I have problems bowing out of political debates. It's something I'm working on.

Elvia
11-04-2010, 08:19 PM
if you waited for "perfect" to get passed, we'd all be dead first.

Get something basic, with some basic starting points passed, and then work on it. it's getting a foot in the door quickly, rather than waiting forever to just smash the door down.


Slow change is not going to happen because the system is broken. Our politicians are owned by corporations, and as long as that system is in place our politicians will act according to their interests. Which is why we ended up with "health care reform" that just gives more money to the crooks who gave us this healthcare crisis to begin with. No one is asking for perfect, what we are saying is that Obama has compromised waaaayyy too much. Republicans fight for what they want. Democrats don't, that's why they're suffering. It's not the people's job to stand by the democrats no matter what. If the democrats are concerned that this is turning people off to them and leaving people less enthusiastic about voting for them, maybe they should take the hint and actually do something to try to reverse that.

Elvia
11-04-2010, 08:22 PM
Touché. I have problems bowing out of political debates. It's something I'm working on.


I am sorry Charlie. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or give the impression you're not wanted in this thread. As I said, so often when people announce they are leaving a thread but continue, it seems like they are trying to say they are above the discussion, even though they clearly aren't since they're going to keep participating actually. I don't think that's what you were doing anymore though.

nicole84
11-04-2010, 08:29 PM
ok...i am actually going to bow out because it is not my job to change peoples minds and all this thread is doing is annoying me. But, I knew that it would going in and just couldnt help myself. my bad.

vote or dont vote. but if you dont, then dont bitch to me about how you dont like what the gov't is doing.

i hope all of you who hate the system can find a place that has one you like.

eagle2
11-04-2010, 08:36 PM
also, eagle2, did you actually take my zombie comment seriously? /:O

i hope so, zombies are not something to fuck around with. :wizard:



Of course! Do you think I want to be eaten by zombies? Did you look at my link?

Trem
11-05-2010, 09:20 AM
No, we're pissed because Obama promised us real health care reform and without much of a fight, rolled over and gave us a "solution" that now just requires us all to give money to the same corrupt people who have been fucking us over forever. We're pissed because he stabbed the gay community in the back when he promised again and again to do away with DOMA and then turned around and openly supported it. So please don't reduce our very real and valid objections by pretending we want him to "wave a magic wand." What an empty, childish thing to say.

As much as i wanted single payer universal health care too we have to face the reality that we voted for a president, not a dictator.

lemiwinks31
11-05-2010, 11:28 AM
As much as i wanted single payer universal health care too we have to face the reality that we voted for a president, not a dictator.


the healthcare bill...as it is now.....is going to cost hundreds of thousands more jobs......

Our company is either going to drop our healthcare, like many other companies are considering(except big companies like McDonalds who are in the process of getting waivers so they dont have to comply) or cut 8-10% of our workforce.

The economy is going to go up and down.....you cant do anything about it going down....it happens from time to time...and if you leave it alone....it comes back...without fail...everytime.

What you can do though, is do things to delay and postpone the recovery....

KS_Stevia
11-05-2010, 11:32 AM
That's pretty fucked up that employers are going to cut their sales force rather than foregoing the one extra new ferrari in order to give their workers benefits.

That's what it boils down to. I'm not socialist and I believe in greed and riches and all that. But really, this is what its all about. Small business owners will get tax breaks with healthcare benefits but the up front cost might eat into their bonuses and fancy shit. We can't stop them because its the American way. But don't think that the rich guy you work for gives a single shit about you. Make your own way if you can....

Melonie
11-05-2010, 01:40 PM
and think there are too many damn uninformed, stupid people out there voting.

I would argue that there are relatively few truly stupid people out there voting. It is not 'stupid' to vote for someone who promises to continue / expand gov't benefits which the voter is eligible to receive and which the voter will not personally have to pay for out of their own pocket within a short term time frame. Arguably, more than 50% of US voters now fall into this scenario ( since ~46% of US income tax filers definitely do).

I would also argue that uninformed doesn't apply as often as mis-informed. For example the small business tax break in Obamacare trades a one time credit of a few thousand dollars against having to pay an unknown level of future benefit costs for that new employee for an unknown number of years PLUS having to pay the additional administrative costs of complying with the Obamacare 1099 rule.

In point of fact, from an overall viewpoint, Obamacare hurts small businesses and helps big corporations. The vacationing business guys I get to talk to down here south of the border all seem to have a common future point of convergence. When the 'public option' insurance pools get up and running, virtually all of these business guys are looking at dumping company coverage of providing employee health care benefits in favor of paying the $2,000 a year fine for leaving their employees uninsured ... plus dumping some number of current employees in favor of contracting / outsourcing their workload to save on mandated employee benefit costs ( which includes unemployment insurance premiums, disability and worker's comp insurance premiums etc in addition to health insurance premiums and/or fines).

lemiwinks31
11-05-2010, 02:05 PM
That's pretty fucked up that employers are going to cut their sales force rather than foregoing the one extra new ferrari in order to give their workers benefits.




FYI....MANY small business are struggling to stay afloat....Ours particularly, nobody here has seen a bonus in 4 years.....EVERYONE has cut salaries)owners, upper management..everyone).....workforce has been reduced down to the bone......every expense imaginable has been looked at.

ANY additional burdens to the company HAS to result in cuts elsewhere. Or we go out of business.

Our owners arent cruising around on yachts, lighting cigars with $100 bills while laughing at the 20 more people who we will have to lay off....They are selling a vacation homes, cashing out 401Ks, liquidating all their investment and putting the proceeds back into the company, taking their kids out of their private schools, driving around a 5 yr old honda accord

They arent kicking up their tanned heels in the carribean on a private island....they are here with us day after day, pouring over the healthcare bill trying to find any possible solution that wont result in more firings of people we consider family......and wondering why on earth the federal government would even consider throwing this huge additional burden on already struggling businesses.

And we are not alone....you hear the same story with just about EVERY business we deal with.


Its not the reality that you hear from the career politicians.........

Its just the reality.

lemiwinks31
11-05-2010, 02:09 PM
..end of ranting.....


I just get a little pissed that most of congress didnt even read the bill before voting it into existence.


OK...NOW end of ranting.

Elvia
11-05-2010, 03:17 PM
As much as i wanted single payer universal health care too we have to face the reality that we voted for a president, not a dictator.


And yet, opinion polls continue to reveal that more Americans are upset because they feel the health care bill does not go far enough. Obama's compromising has nothing to do with what the people want. It's about Obama bending over to the health insurance industry.

KS_Stevia
11-05-2010, 03:44 PM
I understand Lemiwinks, I sell to small businesses across the world every day. Perhaps I was being hyperbolic. But don't think what I said doesn't have merit, that the rich aren't trying to weasel themselves out of this.

Also, can someone please inform me...if a business reports negative revenues or a high debt ratio, can they be excused from offering the required benefits? Or will that just cause the owners to keep funneling money somewhere else?

There should be a way for legitimate struggling businesses to be excempt from mandatory health for their employes for a certain time. Again, I'm not actually all that into politics and haven't studied the health propositions as well as I've hoped. I'm just fortunate to work for a really big, very profitable company, and have spectacular benefits. But I've been without insurance frequently in my life, and that really sucks too.

eagle2
11-05-2010, 04:15 PM
I would argue that there are relatively few truly stupid people out there voting. It is not 'stupid' to vote for someone who promises to continue / expand gov't benefits which the voter is eligible to receive and which the voter will not personally have to pay for out of their own pocket within a short term time frame. Arguably, more than 50% of US voters now fall into this scenario ( since ~46% of US income tax filers definitely do).


I would argue that there are many truly stupid people out there voting, which is why the Republicans are able to keep their status as a major party. Their policies only benefit a small number of the wealthiest Americans, at the expense of everyone else, yet they're able to consistently get large numbers of poor and middle class Americans to vote for them. In any other western country, where most of the people are well educated and informed, the Republicans would be a fringe party.



I would also argue that uninformed doesn't apply as often as mis-informed. For example the small business tax break in Obamacare trades a one time credit of a few thousand dollars against having to pay an unknown level of future benefit costs for that new employee for an unknown number of years PLUS having to pay the additional administrative costs of complying with the Obamacare 1099 rule.

In point of fact, from an overall viewpoint, Obamacare hurts small businesses and helps big corporations. The vacationing business guys I get to talk to down here south of the border all seem to have a common future point of convergence. When the 'public option' insurance pools get up and running, virtually all of these business guys are looking at dumping company coverage of providing employee health care benefits in favor of paying the $2,000 a year fine for leaving their employees uninsured ... plus dumping some number of current employees in favor of contracting / outsourcing their workload to save on mandated employee benefit costs ( which includes unemployment insurance premiums, disability and worker's comp insurance premiums etc in addition to health insurance premiums and/or fines).

Health care reform doesn't hurt most small businesses. Businesses with less than 50 employees aren't affected.

firemaiden04
11-05-2010, 05:28 PM
I would argue that there are relatively few truly stupid people out there voting. It is not 'stupid' to vote for someone who promises to continue / expand gov't benefits which the voter is eligible to receive and which the voter will not personally have to pay for out of their own pocket within a short term time frame. Arguably, more than 50% of US voters now fall into this scenario ( since ~46% of US income tax filers definitely do).

I would also argue that uninformed doesn't apply as often as mis-informed. For example the small business tax break in Obamacare trades a one time credit of a few thousand dollars against having to pay an unknown level of future benefit costs for that new employee for an unknown number of years PLUS having to pay the additional administrative costs of complying with the Obamacare 1099 rule.

In point of fact, from an overall viewpoint, Obamacare hurts small businesses and helps big corporations. The vacationing business guys I get to talk to down here south of the border all seem to have a common future point of convergence. When the 'public option' insurance pools get up and running, virtually all of these business guys are looking at dumping company coverage of providing employee health care benefits in favor of paying the $2,000 a year fine for leaving their employees uninsured ... plus dumping some number of current employees in favor of contracting / outsourcing their workload to save on mandated employee benefit costs ( which includes unemployment insurance premiums, disability and worker's comp insurance premiums etc in addition to health insurance premiums and/or fines).


So basically what you're saying is that the only stupid people voting are the ones voting Democrat.

majordon
11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
the problem is that the US is a country of people who want instant results. instant gratification.

obama has been president for less than a full 2yrs and they are pissed that he didnt wave a magic wand and turn the country into utopia.



Originally Posted by Elvia http://forum.stripperweb.com/images/themes/sw4/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?p=2005554#post2005554)
No, we're pissed because Obama promised us real health care reform and without much of a fight, rolled over and gave us a "solution" that now just requires us all to give money to the same corrupt people who have been fucking us over forever. We're pissed because he stabbed the gay community in the back when he promised again and again to do away with DOMA and then turned around and openly supported it. So please don't reduce our very real and valid objections by pretending we want him to "wave a magic wand." What an empty, childish thing to say.


The funny thing is, Elvia and Nicole are both right ! Many who backed Obama in '08 are very disillusioned because he "rolled over" on the public option for health insurance, didn't end enough wars, didn't let gays serve openly, or whatever the main promise was that they were counting on. I doubt that many of these folks went over to the Tea Party, but a lot fewer voted than 2 yrs ago.

But, IMHO, what this election showed was that many naive people think that the gov't role is to create jobs and fix the economy. Turned out, the magic wand didn't ( won't ever ) work; so vote them out. (Or at least, stay home and let all those new congresspeople who came in on Obama's coattails get rolled back by the TP ). Reality bites: this downturn was 60 years in the making: across many smaller boom/bust cycles, based on overbuilt housing, subsidized mortgages, and debt/leverage that built up on both the public and private side, until it couldn't anymore. Then the defaults on sub-prime mortgages provoked the resurgence of fear over greed, and, what with 1 thing and another, here we are. To imagine that somehow Obama and Congress could have used "hope" or "stimulus" to turn things around in 2 yrs shows a lack of understanding that is sadly very typical of our electorate. I don't see how we can govern ourselves much longer when so many just assume that government creates jobs and wealth.

As an aside: I haven't found out yet what the vote totals were this Tues, but my sense is they were MUCH LESS than 2 yrs ago. What is perceived as this repub/TP tidal wave is really the result of the people who came out for hope and change last time staying home this time.

And also, because I'm coming late to this thread: I don't know whether big muscles or firearms are best for resisting zombies. But if a zombie gets you, don't you become a zombie ? You gotta go sometime, maybe I'd rather try going undead rather than have the OBAMACARE death panel decide if it's time to detach my tubes ?

Melonie
11-05-2010, 11:38 PM
So basically what you're saying is that the only stupid people voting are the ones voting Democrat.

wow whatever happened to reading comprehension. What I said, if spun towards partisanship, is that a significant number of the people who vote Democratic are NOT stupid - and in fact are voting in a very logical matter re their own self- interest. Specifically, low income Americans who overwhelmingly vote Democratic ( 90% of Blacks, 67% of Hispanics in this week's election, who have disproportionately low earnings levels on the average ) want to see the continuation / expansion of social welfare benefits for which they are eligible, and toward which they contribute little or nothing in the way of income taxes paid. By the same token, low income voters are more likely to vote for politicians supporting increased taxation of the rich ... as this provides an additional source of funding for their future social welfare and other gov't benefits.

On the flip side, if also spun towards partisanship, swing voters moving toward Republican support mostly consisted of middle class white women during the most recent election - who are statistically more likely to be net income tax PAYERS, and who see the negative economic fallout. poor jobs prospects, and rising middle class tax rates as a threat to their family's standard of living and their children's present and future opportunities. Thus voting for Republican politicians who promise lower taxes and pro-business policies can be interpreted as a vote in their own self-interest as well.

Overall, I guess what I am saying is that votes cast for either party on the basis of short term self-interest aren't the best way to achieve beneficial long term goals for the country as a whole ! But voting in one's self-interest is far from stupid ! And ever since the original intent of the US constitution to limit voting to those who actually had 'skin in the game' was widened to allow voting by every American with a pulse ( plus some who are not Americans plus some without a pulse in certain states LOL ), major divergence is now possible between what constitutes short term voter self-interest versus what constitutes longer term positive improvement for the country as a whole.



In any other western country, where most of the people are well educated and informed, the Republicans would be a fringe party.

In point of fact, in western countries that are similarly confronted with growing population segments of poorly integrated 'minorities' that have little to contribute in the way of skilled labor and much to consume in the way of social welfare benefits, the exact opposite is true ...

from wiki ...

(snip) (N-VA) is a Flemish right-wing political party ... As of the 2010 federal elections the party gained a substantial plurality in the Dutch-speaking region of Belgium with 28% of the votes in Flanders and 17% of the national vote, becoming the largest party in both Flanders and Belgium altogether. This was the first time in which a non-traditional political party dominated the outcome of a Belgian election.(snip)

from freerepublic ...

(snip)Dutch PVV party leader Geert Wilders wants to resume talks on forming a right-wing coalition with the VVD Liberals and Christian Democrats, Nos tv reports on Tuesday.

Wilders pulled out of the talks after four weeks on Friday, saying he no longer had confidence in the CDA.

But now Ab Klink, the CDA's biggest critic of the right-wing alliance, has stepped down as an MP, Wilders says he would like to start talking again.

In an initial reaction, VVD leader Mark Rutte said he would be pleased to resume talks on a right-wing government.

And CDA leader Maxime Verhagen also wants to reopen the negotiations. My position is the same as it was on Friday, Verhagen said. 'The CDA wants to continue.'

Debate

MPs are due to debate the collapse of right-wing cabinet talks with the queen's negotiator Ivo Opschelten on Tuesday afternoon.

Meanwhile, queen Beatrix is currently consulting her advisors and party leaders about what should happen next in terms of forming a new government.

The Netherlands has been without effective government since the end of February when the cabinet collapsed over support for Afghanistan. The VVD emerged as the biggest party with 31 seats after the June general election. Labour has 30 and the PVV 24.(snip)


I would point out that prior to Geert Wilder's PVV party's 24 seat win in the most recent election ( which made the PVV a near equal third party ) the PVV only held 9 seats. Prior to that previous 9 seat win election the PVV was indeed a fringe element. Thus the trend in Holland, Belgium etc. would appear to be toward the clear growth of conservative political elements at the expense of the historically liberal elements. The 'gold foil hat' crowd would attempt to point out that the most recent US election results are in fact trailing those of Holland, Belgium etc. and in fact yielded the result they did for similar reasons.


Arguably, these days, your assertion about right wing political elements being relegated to fringe status by western countries ONLY still applies to highly homogeneous western countries like Sweden or Switzerland or Norway who have strictly controlled immigration for decades, and who therefore do not have poorly integrated minority communities with high birth rates, high social welfare benefit consumption, and low tax contributions which threaten their country's social welfare systems, economy and indeed culture. Even traditionally liberal western european countries like France and Germany have growing conservative elements within their established political mainstreams these days ... as evidenced by the recent large scale deportation of illegal immigrant Rom (gypsies) by the French and German gov'ts.

~

jester214
11-06-2010, 12:04 AM
I would argue that there are many truly stupid people out there voting, which is why the Republicans are able to keep their status as a major party. Their policies only benefit a small number of the wealthiest Americans, at the expense of everyone else, yet they're able to consistently get large numbers of poor and middle class Americans to vote for them. In any other western country, where most of the people are well educated and informed, the Republicans would be a fringe party.


This is classic.

It's amazing Angela Merkel is in charge or David Cameron... But the UK and Germany must be FULL of uneducated idiots who don't know shit.

Or maybe you mean Fillon in France, or Berlusconi in Italy? Oh wait... all those people are from parties that are either Center-Right or Right...

Aren't those Fringe-Republicans on the right? I can't remember I must be one of the uneducated masses who votes Republican. ::)

You do realize that only like... a 3rd of registered voters are Republican? Probably less since Obama and his campaign of "change".

The Republicans might get a "large number" of poor rural voters. But the Democrats get a "large number" of poor urban voters.

I could go on... but it would probably just confuse you.

eagle2
11-06-2010, 12:47 AM
Jester,

None of those leaders would be considered "center-right" in the United States. All of those countries you mentioned have some type of universal health care, and all of those leaders support it. None of those "conservative" leaders are calling for "reversing and repealing" their health care systems. All of those countries are committed to reducing greenhouse gases, not increasing them. All of those countries have high-speed rail systems and high gasoline tax. None of these leaders are calling for abortions to be outlawed or "abstinence only" sex education to be taught in their schools. There is no comparison between "conservative" European leaders and the Republican Party. The "conservative" leaders in Europe are sane. If they were to propose the policies advocated by the Republican Party in their countries, they would be laughed out of office.

firemaiden04
11-06-2010, 12:57 AM
Specifically, low income Americans who overwhelmingly vote Democratic ( 90% of Blacks, 67% of Hispanics in this week's election, who have disproportionately low earnings levels on the average ) want to see the continuation / expansion of social welfare benefits for which they are eligible, and toward which they contribute little or nothing in the way of income taxes paid. By the same token, low income voters are more likely to vote for politicians supporting increased taxation of the rich ... as this provides an additional source of funding for their future social welfare and other gov't benefits.

I find this to be extremely offensive. Saying that black and Hispanic people vote Democrat because they want a free ride and need their welfare checks... Ugh.

There is soooo much more that goes into politics than this kind of shit. I find comments like this to be extremely ignorant, no matter how many links you post with them.

Trem
11-06-2010, 06:44 AM
And yet, opinion polls continue to reveal that more Americans are upset because they feel the health care bill does not go far enough. Obama's compromising has nothing to do with what the people want. It's about Obama bending over to the health insurance industry.

The people don't get to decide what programs get made into law or don't. Obama has to work with congress, he can't simply do whatever he pleases. And frankly any president who governed based on what polls said would be a horrible one and completely unnecessary, we might as well run our government via internet polls at that point.

exotic0690
11-06-2010, 06:57 AM
I don't believe in this discusting system and I don't like squares.
I did not vote.. I feel I'm not part of that part of society anymore and I will not support it.
I couldn't care less about that garbage.. I don't even read the news (propaganda) other then it involving sex workers.

Thank you for posting this wonderful thread.

Optimist
11-06-2010, 08:05 AM
And also, because I'm coming late to this thread: I don't know whether big muscles or firearms are best for resisting zombies. But if a zombie gets you, don't you become a zombie ? You gotta go sometime, maybe I'd rather try going undead rather than have the OBAMACARE death panel decide if it's time to detach my tubes ?

She's a zombie already and doesn't realize it. She gave her power away instead of using it and that's exactly what powerful elites/corporate sector count on. /:O

eagle2
11-06-2010, 01:49 PM
Edit by mod, sorry Eagle, the quotes were deleted so your replies are as well. I am trying to keep the useless political provocation/flaming to a minimum.



And if you think Berlusconi would be "laughed out" of office for suggesting abstinence only education or outlawing abortion... Well, A. you don't know much about Italian politics and B. you don't know the power of the Catholic church in Italy.

Here's an article about sex education in a very Catholic town in Italy:

http://www.beginningwithi.com/comments/2005/02/20/sex-education-in-italian-schools/

--snip--
Lecco is a very Catholic town, and the ASL lady told the class that, although abortion is legal, they would have trouble finding anyone in Lecco to perform one. I guess it’s good to be warned; fortunately, Milan is easily reached, should the need arise. More importantly, local health authorities are taking the correct steps to prevent the *need* for abortion: the kids were given detailed information on birth control and the use of condoms for disease prevention as well as birth control. They were also told that they can go to a youth clinic at their local ASL for more information, with or without their parents’ knowledge. The ASL lady said that they do try to involve parents in any big decisions (such as abortion), but that the kids have the right to keep their parents out of it if they prefer.

Interestingly, abstinence was never mentioned. I asked Ross why she thought the ASL lady didn’t discuss it as an option. “Oh, everyone would have jumped all over her.” It was clear that a number of the kids are already sexually active, and no judgment upon them was given or implied. Wow. Health care professionals who are allowed to approach teen sex realistically. What a concept.
--snip--

It's pretty sad when a bunch of teenage students in Italy are more rational than the leaders of a major party in the US, including the previous President.

Melonie
11-06-2010, 02:44 PM
I find this to be extremely offensive. Saying that black and Hispanic people vote Democrat because they want a free ride and need their welfare checks... Ugh.

well, there are a number of other possible explanations ... for instance that the 90+% of black voters who supported Obama did so for racist reasons ! Personally. I find THAT offensive.

Offensive or not, the history of voters casting their votes based on their own short term self-interest goes all the way back to the Roman Empire. And in terms of American voting history, voters have always tended to vote first based on 'war' and second based on 'economics'. The previous 2008 election was an exception to this rule. This year's election was not, and was clearly dominated by 'economics'.

If you want to discuss other aspects besides 'economics' consider this Machiavellian breakdown. With 90+% of the black vote going towards Democrats no matter what, NEITHER political party has much reason to accomodate issues of specific interest to black voters. Same is true of gays, greens etc. This means that Democrats can expect to receive essentially every vote from these subgroups, and also means that Democrats can also expect to continue to receive essentially every vote from these subgroups in future elections REGARDLESS of whether the Democrats actually deliver on any "promises" made. But receiving essentially every vote from these subgroups is NOT sufficient to win elections !

With 67% of the hispanic vote going towards Democrats, and with hispanic voters comprising a significantly larger group than the above subgroups combined, this is a different story. The Machiavellians would tell you to keep a very close eye on newly elected senator Marco Rubio over the next couple of years to see where this is headed !

But as this election has again shown, there is a huge group of swing voters who are primarily white, who are primarily middle class, and who are primarily located between the Northeast states and the West Coast states. These swing voters experienced the greatest 'change of opinion' between the last two elections, arguably based on their also having experienced the greatest negative economic changes to their own lives over the past two years. Outside of the Northeast and West Coast states, elections cannot be won without significant support from these primarily white, primarily middle class swing voters. And the Machiavellians would also point out that the Northeast and West Coast states are losing population (thus political clout at the national level ), while the other states are gaining.

~

Djoser
11-06-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm staying out of this one, except to say I am going to try to keep it open, unless or until it becomes too political/heated.

No point in whining about how unfair it is, etc. In fact, further whining complaints about moderation of political posting will result in points for mishandling a moderation issue.

charlie61
11-06-2010, 10:06 PM
Politiks iz stewpid.

Melonie
11-07-2010, 07:22 AM
None of those leaders would be considered "center-right" in the United States

oh really ? This is Geert Wilders the next Dutch PM with a 'warning' for America

part 1

part 2

.

eagle2
11-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Does he want to repeal and defund universal healthcare? Does he want to make pot illegal? Is he opposed to reducing carbon emissions?