Log in

View Full Version : SW Pinks vs. "IRC" Girls



Pages : 1 [2] 3

Kylea2
12-06-2010, 10:34 PM
^^^ Gotcha, yes, that would be nice! Unfortunately I doubt they will do it though. That could actually end up with Jay having problems since many of his dancers aren't licensed.

AmyLynne
12-08-2010, 05:07 PM
I still laugh about when Jay got busted while he was using his moms garage (lol) for his office and she couldnt bail him out because she was there too.

he started calling girls who worked for him or used to work for him to get him out. I just laughed at him.





^^^ Gotcha, yes, that would be nice! Unfortunately I doubt they will do it though. That could actually end up with Jay having problems since many of his dancers aren't licensed.

Kylea2
12-08-2010, 05:38 PM
I still laugh about when Jay got busted while he was using his moms garage (lol) for his office and she couldnt bail him out because she was there too.

he started calling girls who worked for him or used to work for him to get him out. I just laughed at him.

As far as I know, while he has been arrested, he's never been charged with actually pimping or anything along those lines. Have you heard different?

AmyLynne
12-08-2010, 05:54 PM
it was just thornton pd or whatever harassing him. I only worked for him like 3 days. I know a girl who has worked for him for like 3 years and shes always complaining about him deducting money because he took a check from a customer that bounced so he makes his girls pay him for it etc.

while cedric is an aholetoo he at least doesnt live with his mom and has other businesses with the mens salons and cell phone stores.

the only indictment I know about though in denver is beth stewart or sugar mama from denver players.

CCRiderM
12-20-2010, 10:33 AM
I mean in places where extras are rampant they tend to be super cheap, that could be a relative personal opinion though. For example, when I was in FL the girls were doing toy shows for $150, HJs for $300, & FS starting around $500. To me those prices seem insanely cheap... although they are more than what I see many escorts charging OTC.

Kylea, if you think those prices are cheap, you are out of touch with what is reality around the country. As you say, a full hour of an escort is around $300 so how could a girl possibly get $300 for a quickie HJ in the club.

Reality says that the prices are MUCH lower than that and from a value perspective should be.

Just my $.02.

Kylea2
12-22-2010, 04:36 AM
Kylea, if you think those prices are cheap, you are out of touch with what is reality around the country. As you say, a full hour of an escort is around $300 so how could a girl possibly get $300 for a quickie HJ in the club.

Reality says that the prices are MUCH lower than that and from a value perspective should be.

Just my $.02.

HAHA We need a "just died from laughing" smilie... I could use it right now!

I'm far from being out of touch with reality. I travel the country, & I both hear & see prices. Beyond that, there is that whole supply & demand issue. I'm afraid that if you think:

"Reality says that the prices are MUCH lower than that & from a value perspective they should be.

Well, obviously it depends on where you are getting it, who you are getting it from, & how much "supply", she is offering. I'd venture to say that any numbers you are hearing are from girls who are offering a lot of supply, even beyond the club I mentioned, & have de-valued themselves.

For myself though, I laugh & walk away. No amount of money is worth the risks for me.

yoda57us
12-22-2010, 08:17 AM
I get a huge chuckle anytime we start comparing what a dancer thinks full service is worth vs. what an escort actually gets for it. Now, the last thing I'm interested in doing is telling a woman what an hour or so of sex with her is worth on the open market, outside of the club environment. That being said, I've been seeing escorts, strippers, escort/strippers and stripper/escorts for quite a few years so I can't help but opine here.

A dancer who can get $300 for an hour of slap and tickle or chit-chat in VIP is certainly not going to see $300 for an hour of sex as worth her trouble or the risk. If she is getting that $300 an hour on a regular basis she is never going to spread her legs, ITC or OTC, for that same $300. Honestly, I don't blame her one bit.

A dancer's point of reference when it comes to what sex for money is worth to her starts at the baseline of what she can get for "just dancing". An escort's frame of reference is completely different. Sure there are a few women who can escort without having sex but that segment of the market is minuscule. A "GFE" type escort in most parts of the country is going to price herself in the $250 to $400 an hour range if she wants to keep busy and make good money. NYC, Vegas and LA girls can get more but even in those cities there are plenty of ladies working in the range I just mentioned.

In the gray area we have the dancers who also escort. I'm not talking about a dancer who will give it up to a high roller willing to pay a king's ransom for her pussy. I applaud those girls for getting what they get but I'm not shopping in that price range. I'm talking about dancers who dance ITC and escort OTC. The smart ones run it as two separate businesses. The ones willing to take a bit more risk will look for customers inside the club. In both cases however these girls have a more realistic view of what they can charge for sex and they will be as busy as they want to be.

I've seen a lot of escorts over the years and the majority of them also danced either before, during or after their time as escorts. Being successful at both jobs means having a clear understanding of the differences. There really isn't as much in common between the two options as some folks seem to think there is. The one girl who I would have gladly over-paid for a few years ago couldn't seem to get her act together on either the escort or stripper side and eventually wound up getting out of both businesses.

rickdugan
12-22-2010, 09:34 AM
^I suppose it has been a while since we waded in this pool, so...

I actually find that, outside of Boston and possibly Chicago, the going escort rates are a very reliable gauge for what one can pay for an hour with an OTC girl. As I have always said, in order to determine what is reasonable for a given area, I take the eyeball averages of the going rates on Eros (too high) and CL/BP (too low and often bad quality), add them up and divide by 2, and voila.

Now for the most part I agree with the notion that if a dancer could consistently bank in a club then she would probably never have sex for $$$ OTC. The reality, however, is that many are NOT making $300 for an hour of chatting or cuddling ITC, at least not consistently. In many locations, a $500 night ITC (after house fees and tip outs) is considered pretty damned good, and many are not doing even that consistently, so imagine the enticement of picking up $300 for a one hour side trip on the way home.

I would also contend that there is actually a certain amount of logic in picking up OTC customers from the club. The club is a captive marketplace where the girl has significant opportunities to market herself while still picking up cash for other ITC services. As many know better than I, marketing oneself as an escort is difficult, particularly now, and there is a lot of established competition out there.

Now we all know that there are girls who sit at the top of each profession and who make a lot of money doing it, but the vast majority of girls working either as a dancer or an escort are not in that position. Occupational flexibility for some of these girls allows them to maintain multiple streams of revenue, which can be huge when one source of income is underproducing.

yoda57us
12-22-2010, 10:14 AM
Now for the most part I agree with the notion that if a dancer could consistently bank in a club then she would probably never have sex for $$$ OTC. The reality, however, is that many are NOT making $300 for an hour of chatting or cuddling ITC, at least not consistently. In many locations, a $500 night ITC (after house fees and tip outs) is considered pretty damned good, and many are not doing even that consistently, so imagine the enticement of picking up $300 for a one hour side trip on the way home.

I think we share a similar POV here Rick. I know your preferences for choosing your P4P partners differ from mine but I think we both understand the options. The kind of girls you are talking about-the "side trip on the way home" girls-are what I consider to be dancers who escort. They understand the dynamic of both professions and can work successfully in both


I would also contend that there is actually a certain amount of logic in picking up OTC customers from the club. The club is a captive marketplace where the girl has significant opportunities to market herself while still picking up cash for other ITC services. As many know better than I, marketing oneself as an escort is difficult, particularly now, and there is a lot of established competition out there.


Well, I think there are other things to consider on this point thought the choice is ultimately up to the lady. A dancer/escort's decision to look for business inside the club is generally going to effect her reputation with management and other dancers at that club. This may or may not matter to her but it is a reality nonetheless. A club I frequent in Mass has had a long standing policy of firing dancers if they feel that their outside activities are effecting the atmosphere inside the club. Do the girls care? Well, some come back begging for their jobs and some just move on so I guess the best answer I can give is a resounding maybe!

Honestly Rick, establishing yourself as an escort is not really all that difficult in the internet age. There is no captive market as there is inside the club but there is plenty of business out there. Whichever route a lady decides to pursue there are advantages and potential pitfalls to all of them. The same of course holds true for potential customers since trying to book with an escort will almost always require giving up more information than many guys are willing to divulge. Fortunately there is something out there for everybody!

rickdugan
12-22-2010, 12:55 PM
^Well, nothing surprises me when one speaks about a club in MA, but of course there are clubs in many other places that will straight out fire a girl if they know about p4p OTC.

Most of the OTC girls that I deal with tend to be discreet. Now I've had a couple this past year that became much less so, and they were dropped soon after. Even in clubs where it is tolerated by management, many of the girls that do this (at least with me) do not advertise it. IME other dancers really don't know for sure exactly which girls are doing things OTC and which are not - at least with respect to the ones that don't run their mouths - and, all too often, accusations of a girl going home with customers are pure speculation by other bitter dancers.

I certainly don't have your experience in the escort side of things, but I have heard that it can be very difficult to get up and running. What I can say is that there is no substitute for in person sales, and I have to imagine that it is easier to sell yourself to a guy who has smelled and touched you than it is to one trolling through hundreds of escort ads on EROS or one of the other sites.

Now of course she also needs to pick her customers carefully as it is important that he not come back into the club the next day with wagging tongue syndrome, but IME most OTC girls develop good instincts in picking out who they can safely play with.

yoda57us
12-22-2010, 05:00 PM
I certainly don't have your experience in the escort side of things, but I have heard that it can be very difficult to get up and running. What I can say is that there is no substitute for in person sales, and I have to imagine that it is easier to sell yourself to a guy who has smelled and touched you than it is to one trolling through hundreds of escort ads on EROS or one of the other sites.

It's really all relative to what one is comfortable with Rick. I saw a lady last month who had never escorted before. She got a little help from an escort friend of hers, ran an ad on TER's Boston board with a link to her very basic website. I liked what I saw and decided to roll the dice based on knowing her friend's reputation. When I saw her we had a great time but she told me that she had been completely overwhelmed with the amount of guys who had contacted her for appointments-way more than she was even interested in seeing. She actually asked me NOT to write a review or mention her on the escort boards as she was getting way more attention than she wanted already. You see it's not really that hard to promote yourself but you do have to actually promote yourself. The dancers offering OTC in the clubs are not, I suspect, too enamored with the idea of actually putting themsleves out there as escorts. That's fine. They have their approach and the gals doing it on line have theirs. It's all good as long as everyone exercises caution and plays safe.

CCRiderM
12-23-2010, 12:16 AM
HAHA We need a "just died from laughing" smilie... I could use it right now!

I'm far from being out of touch with reality. I travel the country, & I both hear & see prices. Beyond that, there is that whole supply & demand issue. I'm afraid that if you think:

"Reality says that the prices are MUCH lower than that & from a value perspective they should be.

Well, obviously it depends on where you are getting it, who you are getting it from, & how much "supply", she is offering. I'd venture to say that any numbers you are hearing are from girls who are offering a lot of supply, even beyond the club I mentioned, & have de-valued themselves.

For myself though, I laugh & walk away. No amount of money is worth the risks for me.

Actually, I too travel the country extensively and I'm representing rates in the California, St. Louis area, Philly, NJ, Florida, Texas, Toronto (see, even threw in some International) The story is the same. I'm guessing that the "prices" you are hearing are what the girls are TELLING you they are getting, not what they are actually charging. It's like the hotel business, there is a vast difference between the "Rack Rate" and what is charged to the guests.

JoeUnCool
12-23-2010, 07:12 AM
Ah, the old "What is pussy worth" discussion, how I have missed you. :D

I remember a discussion in my industry that went along the lines of:
Someone bitching about our rates: "All X are the same. They are just like hookers. Pay'em a little, pay'em a lot, you get the same."
Me: "Here's $25. I'm going out with $750, lets compare notes in the morning and we'll see who had the better time."

JoeUnCool
12-23-2010, 07:23 AM
Now that I got that out of my system, seriously, what does the price of pussy matter? If you had a good time, wasn't it worth it? Negotiations over pussy are one of the truest forms of capitalism. The buyer and seller are typically (assuming no company/pimp is in the middle) right there. Negotiations can go on, though, I don't think they do too much. Its such a beautiful thing.

As to Yoda and Rick's point about getting up and going, I would think it would easy to get started, however, I think that there are numerous problem points. These are (on both sides): getting beaten up, stolen from, getting your money, maybe getting killed, going up the ladder to higher paying gigs. I bet its hard from being a $250/hr girl to being a $5000/hr (or night) girl. I bet Ashley Dupre isn't making $5000/night now - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Alexandra_Dupr%C3%A9

rickdugan
12-23-2010, 08:10 AM
...The dancers offering OTC in the clubs are not, I suspect, too enamored with the idea of actually putting themsleves out there as escorts...

I agree. Most of the dancers that I do OTC with would not consider themselves to be "escorts" and do not see p4p sex as their primary occupation. I have no doubt that many of them would have no interest in having their pictures up on escort sites or in meeting guys cold.


Actually, I too travel the country extensively and I'm representing rates in the California, St. Louis area, Philly, NJ, Florida, Texas, Toronto (see, even threw in some International) The story is the same. I'm guessing that the "prices" you are hearing are what the girls are TELLING you they are getting, not what they are actually charging. It's like the hotel business, there is a vast difference between the "Rack Rate" and what is charged to the guests.

I can see both viewpoints on this. Kylea is having trouble fathoming dancers giving out FS OTC for $300, and I don't blame her if she is doing well in the clubs. However, many of us who monger in different parts of the country know that there are girls out there giving it up for that and even cheaper, and some of these girls are quite attractive. But Kylea is also right with her point that location plays a role, and I would agree with her in that in "cleaner" locations the prices tend to creep higher for taking a dancer OTC.

Hell, in Boston, where there are only two clubs in the downtown area, I can tell you that most dancers would indeed laugh at an offer equivalent to what you would pay for an hour with an escort. There is simply too much money chasing too little supply in the clubs. Same generally holds true for Manhattan, where you can get laid for $250 by placing a call, but many willing dancers would want much more than that for an OTC encounter.

But outside of certain very controlled areas and regions, I also agree with your point that the pricing grids are comparable.

yoda57us
12-23-2010, 09:01 AM
I bet its hard from being a $250/hr girl to being a $5000/hr (or night) girl. I bet Ashley Dupre isn't making $5000/night now - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Alexandra_Dupr%C3%A9

Ashley Dupre was already out of escorting when Spitzer got caught but, for the record, She wasn't making $5000 an hour though that may have been what her agency was charging for her.

Redwolf
12-23-2010, 09:53 AM
I happened to be visiting with a lady very recently who has done both stripping and escorting. She is doing escorting now. She told me that prefers doing a date or two and making more money than the typical whole night of stripping. Sure, she sometimes would bring in close to a $1K or even a $1K in a night but just as much she would work long hard hours for little. She said that now she knows that if she is working, she is making money. Now, her success is based more upon marketing, reputation, and customer service than it is hustle.

She surprised me by telling me that she has found her clients now to be generally more respectful, interesting, and fun to be with than the guys who came to watch her strip and wanted a whole lot for a little.

I don't know for sure that she did OTC while she danced, but I think that she did.

yoda57us
12-23-2010, 02:42 PM
She surprised me by telling me that she has found her clients now to be generally more respectful, interesting, and fun to be with than the guys who came to watch her strip and wanted a whole lot for a little.


I have heard the same sort of things from escorts who have done both jobs. Most of them have also said that they prefer escorting even though, when all is said and done, the money is about the same. That being said, there are plenty of misogynistic a-holes hiring escorts just as there are showing up at strip clubs. Just when you think you are having a good run some dick-head shows up at the door smelling like sewage and carrying a short envelope...

Kylea2
12-23-2010, 04:12 PM
Actually, I too travel the country extensively and I'm representing rates in the California, St. Louis area, Philly, NJ, Florida, Texas, Toronto (see, even threw in some International) The story is the same. I'm guessing that the "prices" you are hearing are what the girls are TELLING you they are getting, not what they are actually charging. It's like the hotel business, there is a vast difference between the "Rack Rate" and what is charged to the guests.

Re-read what I wrote. Again, I think its the supply & demand. I really shouldn't have to reiterate this on here, but I will: the demand is not the same for all "similar" items. In other words, I wouldn't walk into Wal-mart to buy a pair of black dress slacks & expect the price to be the same as black dress slacks from Armani. The material, marketing, production costs, etc. have increased the demand for one, yet the producer keeps the supply down, thus increasing the cost they can charge. Regardless of what you want to think, women are pretty much the same. While at the core they may have the same physical functioning mechanism between their legs, access to it, aesthetics, personality, style, personal care, marketing, location etc can all drive up her value. If she doesn't know her own value, it's because she lacks business sense, so that is her own fault.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that many women do not have a great sense of business. I know that their are girls advertising $30 "blow 'n' go" (BnG) services online... but the experience of getting blown in a car by a woman who offers LOTS of supply because her rate is so cheap will be vastly different than one who charges in the neighborhood of $150 - $500 at a mid-grade hotel. Think how many BnGs that low end girl would have to make in order to afford a decent hotel, have nice clothes, be able to stay well maintained (hair, nails, etc.) as well as getting tested for STDs. That's a whole other matter, many guys forget that these women end up at the Gynecologists office far more than the average woman. They do pick up things up more often & some get regularly tested... which again drives up costs. That $30 BnG won't really cover the cost of a $50-$100 STD test, so again she'll have to do more to make a decent profit.

Also, again, you think I'm far more naive than I am. I don't talk about things that I don't know about & can stand on solid ground regarding. I've been in the same room when negotiations were occurring & even when PAYMENT was occurring... on multiple occassions. Just because I am a woman who doesn't personally provide the service does not mean I am clueless.




I can see both viewpoints on this. Kylea is having trouble fathoming dancers giving out FS OTC for $300, and I don't blame her if she is doing well in the clubs. However, many of us who monger in different parts of the country know that there are girls out there giving it up for that and even cheaper, and some of these girls are quite attractive. But Kylea is also right with her point that location plays a role, and I would agree with her in that in "cleaner" locations the prices tend to creep higher for taking a dancer OTC.

Nope, I don't have problems fathoming any price... I just don't think that all services are equal - which means the prices shouldn't be either. I know free sex, cheap sex, mid-range priced sex, & expensive sex are all out there... I just know that they aren't all equal. Now, if you want to take a pair of identical twins or triplets, all with the same sexual experience level & talent, tell them they can't express their personalities, & strip them of any clothing/makeup/hairstyle differences - yes, I'd venture to bet they would all collect the same price from prospective customers for the same service... at the same location. That's simply not how it works though.

yoda57us
12-23-2010, 05:50 PM
Also, again, you think I'm far more naive than I am. I don't talk about things that I don't know about & can stand on solid ground regarding. I've been in the same room when negotiations were occurring & even when PAYMENT was occurring... on multiple occassions. Just because I am a woman who doesn't personally provide the service does not mean I am clueless.


I don't think that anyone here is saying that you are clueless but neither are we. We all have opinions based on our experiences. A buyer's perspective, a seller's perspective and an observer's perspective will all differ a bit...or a lot, based on what is at stake, or not at stake for the person giving the opinion.

rickdugan
12-23-2010, 07:00 PM
Kylea, I know where you are going with this but the reality is that there are very few places where big whales can be found willing to lavish large sums of money for sex with a girl, and even in these places only a small % of dancers that have the skills necessary to make it happen.

Now I know something of which I speak on this as I was clubbing in some of the most moneyed places in the country during the heydays of 1995-2000 and 2003-2007, both of which were boom periods for the financial types in NYC, the Gold Coast of Connecticut and Boston, all places I spent concentrated amounts of time in during those periods. Guys would fly in to town just to see their favorite dancers, and jewelry, expensive clothes, generous cash payments and other items were all part of the game when big spenders were chasing some of the sexy, smart and sophisticated dancers that worked in some of the top clubs. But even then it was a relative handful of top girls in this mix, and those days are largely gone now.

The prices we have been mentioning are as much a function of demand as supply, and a girl who is going to maximize her OTC profits needs to find the right balance. Now perhaps you might think that $300 for an hour is cheap, but the reality is that even that is far from a "gimme" sale in many places. And once you move past a certain "ouch" point you can easily price yourself to a place where these sales are rare.

Now I have seen girls try to hold the line, only to come down over time. Hell, on some nights I have had girls try to quote me $500+ for the hour that I wanted, but quickly move down to what I considered reasonable when I told them (kindly) that they were coming in a little high. Many of these girls did not lack in the looks or charisma department, but simply took a sale for $300 rather than walking away empty handed. Now again, were these the top girls in the top clubs in the country? No, but they were very pretty and charismatic, and I greatly enjoyed my time with many of them.

safado
12-23-2010, 07:22 PM
Kylea, I know where you are going with this but the reality is that there are very few places where big whales can be found willing to lavish large sums of money for sex with a girl, and even in these places only a small % of dancers that have the skills necessary to make it happen.

Now I know something of which I speak on this as I was clubbing in some of the most moneyed places in the country during the heydays of 1995-2000 and 2003-2007, both of which were boom periods for the financial types in NYC, the Gold Coast of Connecticut and Boston, all places I spent concentrated amounts of time in during those periods. Guys would fly in to town just to see their favorite dancers, and jewelry, expensive clothes, generous cash payments and other items were all part of the game when big spenders were chasing some of the sexy, smart and sophisticated dancers that worked in some of the top clubs. But even then it was a relative handful of top girls in this mix, and those days are largely gone now.

The prices we have been mentioning are as much a function of demand as supply, and a girl who is going to maximize her OTC profits needs to find the right balance. Now perhaps you might think that $300 for an hour is cheap, but the reality is that even that is far from a "gimme" sale in many places. And once you move past a certain "ouch" point you can easily price yourself to a place where these sales are rare.

Now I have seen girls try to hold the line, only to come down over time. Hell, on some nights I have had girls try to quote me $500+ for the hour that I wanted, but quickly move down to what I considered reasonable when I told them (kindly) that they were coming in a little high. Many of these girls did not lack in the looks or charisma department, but simply took a sale for $300 rather than walking away empty handed. Now again, were these the top girls in the top clubs in the country? No, but they were very pretty and charismatic, and I greatly enjoyed my time with many of them.

I find it funny when dancers say how cheap $300 dollars is. According to Wikipedia the median household income in the U.S. in 2009 was $49,777 which works out to $23.93 per hour. I would say that a lot of dancers are out of touch with reality not only with what they think is a cheap price for sex but also the price of the VIP rooms that they try to sell and claim it is cheap.

In my area I have paid between $150 and $300. I consider the $300 to be expensive but the girl who I was paying $300 was not a clock watcher, and she had a porn web page and a few movies so I get to say that I fucked a porn star.

she sells sanctuary
12-24-2010, 05:00 AM
This biggest difference is as everyone has already noted--extras are ostensibly unavailable via the preponderance of SW girls, but practically ubiquitous in the clubs. A lot of SW girls deny that situational flexibility plays into their decision-making process with regard to the circumstances under which they will or will not provide extras--and that's understandable given the unreasonable and vitriolic responses they get from their peers. But that lack of honesty makes SW less useful to its own members as a result.

As someone else here once said, when it comes to Pinkies and extras, it's like prison here--everyone is innocent.

it's funny. i've had some times where i was desperate enough for some money that i would've done extras, and for normal market price. and for the life of me, i couldn't find a guy willing. either they were bs'ing me to see what i'd say, or otherwise jerking me around for a laugh. or they thought that i was lying to them. i guess because, since it wasn't something i was in the habit of doing, i wasn't saying the right things and was therefore not convincing. or something.

i ended up deciding that the universe doesn't want me to do extras. lol. i've actually considered escorting (completely apart from the club, though cos i hate it when girls do that), but anytime i think of my complete failure to get a guy to pay me 200$ to fuck him at his hotel room, when the economy was still decent and i was in amazing shape, i'd probably make even less whoring myself out now than i can just stripping.


I actually find that, outside of Boston and possibly Chicago, the going escort rates are a very reliable gauge for what one can pay for an hour with an OTC girl. As I have always said, in order to determine what is reasonable for a given area, I take the eyeball averages of the going rates on Eros (too high) and CL/BP (too low and often bad quality), add them up and divide by 2, and voila.

otc girls are prostitutes. that's why they are realistic about the price. they aren't just doing it just this once for a little extra money. they do it all the time. they are prostitutes who go to the stripclub to facilitate their prostitution, while making a bit of extra money giving lapdances (and likely doing extras and often straight up prostitution itc too).

so if a girl is a stripper, and does not regularly prostitute herself, she will expect more money for doing so. it's likely that she also knows the fair market value of the services. it's just that she isn't willing to do it for that price.


I agree. Most of the dancers that I do OTC with would not consider themselves to be "escorts" and do not see p4p sex as their primary occupation. I have no doubt that many of them would have no interest in having their pictures up on escort sites or in meeting guys cold.

of course they don't think what they're doing is prostitution. whatever they've got to tell themselves in order to not break down in tears, right?


I find it funny when dancers say how cheap $300 dollars is. According to Wikipedia the median household income in the U.S. in 2009 was $49,777 which works out to $23.93 per hour. I would say that a lot of dancers are out of touch with reality not only with what they think is a cheap price for sex but also the price of the VIP rooms that they try to sell and claim it is cheap.

In my area I have paid between $150 and $300. I consider the $300 to be expensive but the girl who I was paying $300 was not a clock watcher, and she had a porn web page and a few movies so I get to say that I fucked a porn star.

you know what? a bottle of lotion and redtube are a lot cheaper. if you're looking for a bargain, fuck your hand.

finding a hot chick to fuck you well at a cheap price is not a right. either you compromise, save up, or get lucky.

and there's a lot of ugly skanks who've done porn. a lot of dudes don't care. the ones who do are probably willing to spend more than you are.

AmyLynne
12-24-2010, 08:28 AM
I know agencies in L A and Vegas that charge in the thousands of dollars per hour. Im pretty sure if I wanted to have sex for money Id just do porn- at least its supposedly safer and with less risk!

yoda57us
12-24-2010, 01:29 PM
It is safer and less risky in that everyone is tested and it's a controlled environment but there isn't really much money in Porn anymore. Many of the girls end up escorting for just that reason.

rickdugan
12-27-2010, 06:55 PM
...otc girls are prostitutes. that's why they are realistic about the price. they aren't just doing it just this once for a little extra money. they do it all the time. they are prostitutes who go to the stripclub to facilitate their prostitution, while making a bit of extra money giving lapdances (and likely doing extras and often straight up prostitution itc too).

so if a girl is a stripper, and does not regularly prostitute herself, she will expect more money for doing so. it's likely that she also knows the fair market value of the services. it's just that she isn't willing to do it for that price.

of course they don't think what they're doing is prostitution. whatever they've got to tell themselves in order to not break down in tears, right?

That is not really accurate IME.

In fact, take your own story before this quote, where you actually offered services up but couldn't seem to find a buyer. OTC is hit or miss at best, and there is a wide gulf between the theoretical discussion with a guy in the club and the actual event.

Some guys are just plain scared and/or chicken out. Others assume that they are being led on but play along. Yet others cannot actually afford it, but pretend that they are game in order to gain more of her attention ITC. And of course let's not forget about the guys that seem pursue it vigorously in the club, but suddenly go radio silent - for any of the above or other reasons - when she is already on her way to his hotel.

Many girls are also careful about who they will do OTC with, and it is really a crime of opportunity rather than an everyday thing. Most of the girls that I’ve done OTC with try to ensure that the guy seems safe, is not prone to wagging tongue syndrome and is not likely to become attached. Married guys are generally considered to be safer and traveling, married businessmen tend to be ideal for some of the girls I deal with.

It is fairly simplistic, and usually not accurate, to say that dancers that agree to OTC encounters are primarily in the game of prostitution. Many of them will take select opportunities when they present themselves, but most are not running off with any swinging dick that claims to have money to spend.

yoda57us
12-27-2010, 09:13 PM
I always wind up having to post the same thing at this point....

If you sell sex for money you are engaging in prostitution. Does that make you a Prostitute? Well, if you get caught it sure does in the eyes of the law but that's pretty easy to avoid. The fact is any woman who exchanges sex for money can find a justification for doing it. What makes the dancer who goes home with a guy once in a while any different than a woman with a website and pages of reviews on the escort boards? The answer of course is everything and nothing, depending on who you ask.

Kylea2
12-27-2010, 09:18 PM
I'm guessing that the "prices" you are hearing are what the girls are TELLING you they are getting, not what they are actually charging. It's like the hotel business, there is a vast difference between the "Rack Rate" and what is charged to the guests.

Good thing you didn't place a wager on that bet... you would have lost.

Kellydancer
12-28-2010, 12:19 AM
I always wind up having to post the same thing at this point....

If you sell sex for money you are engaging in prostitution. Does that make you a Prostitute? Well, if you get caught it sure does in the eyes of the law but that's pretty easy to avoid. The fact is any woman who exchanges sex for money can find a justification for doing it. What makes the dancer who goes home with a guy once in a while any different than a woman with a website and pages of reviews on the escort boards? The answer of course is everything and nothing, depending on who you ask.

Yep. Reminds me of that joke asking if a woman would sleep with a man for a million dollars then he asks her for $10 (or an amount around), she asks what does he think she is, and he says "we know what you are, it depends on price". I'm paraphrasing of course.

In my years of dancing I've heard girls getting busted for prostitution just for agreeing to a date. Of course we can ask if she meant for money but the law is pretty weird on this and I've heard iof girls getting busted for things most of us wouldn't consider prostitution but the law would. I've known a few dancers who had sex with a few customers for money (mostly regulars) but no one else, does that make them hookers? How about a woman who goes out with a guy, he buys dinner then she sleeps with him for payment? This one I see a lot more than the others and not with dancers usually. I know a girl who went to a customers house to watch him jack off, does this make her a prostitute? It's all a matter of opinion. I've had people call me a hooker because I sold whipped cream shots at parties. These are where I put a lot of whipped cream on my breasts and the guys licked it off, rarely touch my breast.

rickdugan
12-28-2010, 07:39 AM
I always wind up having to post the same thing at this point....

If you sell sex for money you are engaging in prostitution. Does that make you a Prostitute? Well, if you get caught it sure does in the eyes of the law but that's pretty easy to avoid. The fact is any woman who exchanges sex for money can find a justification for doing it. What makes the dancer who goes home with a guy once in a while any different than a woman with a website and pages of reviews on the escort boards? The answer of course is everything and nothing, depending on who you ask.

We all know that it is ultimately prostitution, but I really don't get stuck on labels. Though of course I nod and gently communicate my appreciation and understanding each time I hear something like "I really don't do this very often", sometimes followed by "but you're different/a nice guy/[insert here]." ;)

My only issue is with the theory that OTC girls use the club primarily as a means to pick up johns, which is simply not true in most cases. The reality is that a lot of stars need to align right in order for an OTC event to happen. There are many guys unable or unwilling to shell out large sums of money just to get laid. Additionally, when one of these guys does appear, she has to determine whether she can trust him enough to go out with him, knowing of course that he could create a lot of problems for her at her job if she makes a mistake.

There is a reason that it took me months to talk my current local fav out, and that (to my knowledge) I am the only one that she is currently doing this with. There is also a reason that, when I show up to one of my travel clubs, girls that I've done OTC with in the past are almost invariably available that night for a repeat.

Now I certainly hold no illusions about being special or the extent to which these girls act on a variety of opportunities. My only point here is that making OTC sales as a dancer is far more difficult than is portrayed here, at least if the girl is acting with any degree of common sense. For most, OTC is an additional revenue source rather than a primary means of support.

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 07:39 AM
I always wind up having to post the same thing at this point....

If you sell sex for money you are engaging in prostitution. Does that make you a Prostitute? Well, if you get caught it sure does in the eyes of the law but that's pretty easy to avoid. The fact is any woman who exchanges sex for money can find a justification for doing it. What makes the dancer who goes home with a guy once in a while any different than a woman with a website and pages of reviews on the escort boards? The answer of course is everything and nothing, depending on who you ask.

Agree with Yoda on this one. If you offer sex for money, you are a prostitute, hooker, or escort. If you pay for sex with money, you are a john or trick. You can dress it up however you want, call it "sugar daddy" or "sugar baby" but its still the same thing. If you don't like the words, then don't be involved. Someone will use them in a hateful way to hurt you if you are involved. It stinks, but that's the world we live in. Some people feel that the only way to make themselves feel better is to put others down.

BTW, I am not trying to speak down to anyone. I've been dragged through this. I know of what I speak. Think of me as the recovering drug addict (or the great buzz killer).

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 07:49 AM
We all know that many girls that do OTC do not consider themselves prostitutes, yet in the eyes of many others it is indeed prostitution. I really don't get stuck on labels, though of course I nod and gently communicate my heartfelt understanding and gratitude each time I hear something like "I really don't do this very often", sometimes followed by "but you're different/a nice guy/[insert here]." ;)

My only issue is with the theory that OTC girls use the club primarily as a means to pick up johns, which is simply not true in most cases. The reality is that a lot of stars need to align right in order for an OTC event to happen. There are many guys unable or unwilling to shell out large sums of money just to get laid. Additionally, when one of these guys does appear, she has to determine whether she can trust him enough to go out with him, knowing of course that he could create a lot of problems for her at her job if she makes a mistake.

There is a reason that I am the only one that my current local fav is doing OTC with. There is also a reason that, when I show up to one of my travel clubs, girls that I've done OTC with in the past are almost invariably available that night for a repeat.

Now I certainly hold no illusions about being special or whether these girls act on a variety of opportunities. My only point here is that it is making OTC sales as a dancer is far more difficult than is portrayed here, at least if the girl is acting with any degree of common sense. For most, OTC is an additional revenue source rather than a primary means of support.

Interesting, I think you are thinking this through way too much. You are assuming that the girls working that are prostitutes in a club have some sense. If they had any sense, why are they working as prostitutes on the side?

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Yep. Reminds me of that joke asking if a woman would sleep with a man for a million dollars then he asks her for $10 (or an amount around), she asks what does he think she is, and he says "we know what you are, it depends on price". I'm paraphrasing of course.

In my years of dancing I've heard girls getting busted for prostitution just for agreeing to a date. Of course we can ask if she meant for money but the law is pretty weird on this and I've heard iof girls getting busted for things most of us wouldn't consider prostitution but the law would. I've known a few dancers who had sex with a few customers for money (mostly regulars) but no one else, does that make them hookers? How about a woman who goes out with a guy, he buys dinner then she sleeps with him for payment? This one I see a lot more than the others and not with dancers usually. I know a girl who went to a customers house to watch him jack off, does this make her a prostitute? It's all a matter of opinion. I've had people call me a hooker because I sold whipped cream shots at parties. These are where I put a lot of whipped cream on my breasts and the guys licked it off, rarely touch my breast.

"we know what you are, we're negotiating now" is the line I am familiar with.

I think I know prostitution when I see it, which is the ultimate problem. Unfortunately, its like porn. I would not consider licking whip cream off a woman's nipples prostitution. Having sex with a guy, even a regular, for money, yeah, that's prostitution. Watching a guy jerk off, while strange(life takes all kinds), that wouldn't fall into prostitution in my list.

Here's an interesting scenario. A guy goes into a club. They guy is GirlA's type. GirlA does a bunch of dances for the guy and is paid for the dances. They arrange to meetup afterwards and have lots of sex. No money changes hands outside the club. Is that prostitution?

rickdugan
12-28-2010, 08:12 AM
Interesting, I think you are thinking this through way too much. You are assuming that the girls working that are prostitutes in a club have some sense. If they had any sense, why are they working as prostitutes on the side?

I'm neither "thinking this through" nor "assuming" anything. OTC with dancers has been my primary, almost exclusive, source of p4p sex for many years. I do this a lot and am speaking from direct interactions with a number of dancers working in clubs spread out around the eastern and southern parts of the country.

And I'd be interested to hear exactly how a girl that earns in the club, while also picking up extra chunks outside the club, lacks sense.

Redwolf
12-28-2010, 08:32 AM
I always wind up having to post the same thing at this point....

If you sell sex for money you are engaging in prostitution. Does that make you a Prostitute? Well, if you get caught it sure does in the eyes of the law but that's pretty easy to avoid. The fact is any woman who exchanges sex for money can find a justification for doing it. What makes the dancer who goes home with a guy once in a while any different than a woman with a website and pages of reviews on the escort boards? The answer of course is everything and nothing, depending on who you ask.

Remember for every similarity in an analogy, there are more differences. Nonetheless, a good analogy can be helpful.

We do not call someone who takes one shot in the backyard a basketball player. Someone who practices frequently, plays regularly, watches basketball, and talks about it all the time is definitely considered a basketball player. At what point does someone become a 'basketball player'? I would say joining a team or playing in several pick-up games and practicing at least occasionally outside of that. Basketball has become important to this individual.

By legal or moral law, one act of prostitution may make someone a prostitute. I don't think that one act of pay for play makes one a prostitute. Nor does one act of stripping make one a stripper. Sending sexy pics one time does not make one a cam girl. Following the analogy of the basketball player, IMO the one-night hookup for cash done once does not make a lady a prostitute.

As Rick said, all ladies who do OTC do not just work at the club merely as the homebase of their OTC operations, even if some do. Some, and I believe most, are legit dancers who go to work to make money dancing. And if money is tight at home, take-home pay is not sufficient, and the right guy is met (trust, safety, $$$, etc.), this kind of legit dancer will engage in OTC activity.

So to get back to the OP, there are dancers who say they will never no-matter-what do OTC for pay. This seems to be the overwhelming vast majority on SW. IRC, this percentage is significantly smaller. There are girls who would only do OTC for compensation but only in need - perhaps desparate - and when the stars align. IRC, IMO and IME, this is a large percentage of dancers. Here on SW, very few honestly would admit to this. And then we have the regular OTC girls, the professional prostitutes making connections in the club. If there are any of these on SW, they know enough to keep their mouths shut, that is, if there are any. IRC, IME the number of girls who use the club to grow their number of OTC johns is very small, although surely more numerous than the mythical one or two girls here on SW who fall into this category.

yoda57us
12-28-2010, 09:00 AM
Agree with Yoda on this one. If you offer sex for money, you are a prostitute, hooker, or escort. If you pay for sex with money, you are a john or trick.

Dude, I didn't say that. You read my post and drew that conclusion. My post was all about the futility of getting hung-up on labels. You are the one doing the labeling here, not me.

yoda57us
12-28-2010, 09:03 AM
Interesting, I think you are thinking this through way too much. You are assuming that the girls working that are prostitutes in a club have some sense. If they had any sense, why are they working as prostitutes on the side?

And you are not thinking at all! Selling sex, in any capacity, does not disqualify a woman from being an intelligent and rational human being.

yoda57us
12-28-2010, 11:37 AM
By legal or moral law, one act of prostitution may make someone a prostitute. I don't think that one act of pay for play makes one a prostitute. Nor does one act of stripping make one a stripper. Sending sexy pics one time does not make one a cam girl. Following the analogy of the basketball player, IMO the one-night hookup for cash done once does not make a lady a prostitute.


Um, again, A woman who accepts money for sex is engaging in prostitution. That is the legal and dictionary word for the act. Once, twice or a thousand times doesn't matter. Who and when doesn't matter. Is she a prostitute? Again, that is a matter of individual opinion with the most important opinion being that of the perpetrator. I did not say she was. The description of the act is not an accusation. A guy playing basketball is playing basketball regardless of what you call him.

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 08:02 PM
I'm neither "thinking this through" nor "assuming" anything. OTC with dancers has been my primary, almost exclusive, source of p4p sex for many years. I do this a lot and am speaking from direct interactions with a number of dancers working in clubs spread out around the eastern and southern parts of the country.

And I'd be interested to hear exactly how a girl that earns in the club, while also picking up extra chunks outside the club, lacks sense.

Earning extra money on the side is not the issue. Earning extra money on the side by having sex with someone for money, is what I am referring to. Understand, I don't judge anyone on this. I do not judge you, a dancer, or anyone else in this. However, in general, I have found the girls that do this tend to give themselves away fairly easily and quickly, at least to me. I'm not referring to someone that is just playing a game. I'm referring to a girl that is rather blatant about wanting to "meet up." Now, I realize that there are lots of girls that will play the game of "I'll act like I want to have sex to get some money." However, I find girls, especially girls that are playing the OTC game, are much more blatant about it than you apply. While I admit that my local clubs are dives and I think this happens more there, I've seen it at much nicer clubs as well. I wouldn't need, want, or desire a girl that runs her mouth because it will run every where.

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 08:11 PM
Dude, I didn't say that. You read my post and drew that conclusion. My post was all about the futility of getting hung-up on labels. You are the one doing the labeling here, not me.

Apologies as my statement was really more along the lines of my frustration with others that use these terms to hurt people. I don't judge you, rick, or anyone else over your own choices.

JoeUnCool
12-28-2010, 08:54 PM
And you are not thinking at all! Selling sex, in any capacity, does not disqualify a woman from being an intelligent and rational human being.

I guess we live in different worlds. In my world, the girls that do OTC don't have enough sense to shutup.

yoda57us
12-28-2010, 09:26 PM
I guess we live in different worlds.

My experiences, and perhaps my outlook, are a bit different than yours...

Casual Observer
12-28-2010, 09:38 PM
In my world, the girls that do OTC don't have enough sense to shutup.

Perhaps a change in operating environment is in order; I don't find it difficult to pick discreet OTC girls out of the crowd, generally speaking--their behavior tends to stand out, ironically.

rickdugan
12-29-2010, 07:13 AM
I guess we live in different worlds. In my world, the girls that do OTC don't have enough sense to shutup.


Perhaps a change in operating environment is in order; I don't find it difficult to pick discreet OTC girls out of the crowd, generally speaking--their behavior tends to stand out, ironically.

Joe, I agree with CO. As you stated, you hang out in dives. Hell, in the dives I sometimes visit there is no reason to leave with the girl as she will usually do the job - and cheaply at that - right at the club, but IME they are normally not girls that you would want to take out.

My OTC partners are usually sourced from mid to upper level clubs. IME these girls ARE discreet as known OTC can cause a lot of problems for them, including potential termination.

IMHO you need to find some better clubs, better girls or both. Perhaps a few good experiences to mitigate the crappy ones that you hold on to so dearly would limit the amount of shrill "WATCH OUT, BE CAREFUL, WARNING:THE SKY IS FALLING" posts that we see from you every time some OTC topic is raised.

Just my :twocents:

JoeUnCool
12-29-2010, 07:30 AM
Joe, I agree with CO. As you stated, you hang out in dives. Hell, in the dives I sometimes visit there is no reason to leave with the girl as she will usually do the job - and cheaply at that - right at the club, but IME they are normally not girls that you would want to take out.

My OTC partners are usually sourced from mid to upper level clubs. IME these girls ARE discreet as known OTC can cause a lot of problems for them, including potential termination.



Local clubs here are dives. That is all that is here. I have found no difference between the actions of girls at the dives to actions at high end clubs in major cities. At the Gold Club (before it closed), Pink Pony in Atlanta or local clubs, they are all fairly bold in asking. Any activity seems to be known within moments of it happening. The only difference is the attractiveness of the girls.



IMHO you need to find some better clubs, better girls or both. Perhaps a few good experiences to mitigate the crappy ones that you hold on to so dearly would limit the amount of shrill "WATCH OUT, BE CAREFUL, WARNING:THE SKY IS FALLING" posts that we see from you every time some OTC topic is raised.

Just my :twocents:

There seems to be some amount of bragging. Look at me not as Chicken Little, but as someone that brings you back to reality. Its not all unicorns and rainbows. Experience has taught me that they have many tricks. }:D

JoeUnCool
12-29-2010, 07:36 AM
My experiences, and perhaps my outlook, are a bit different than yours...

I think we all have different experiences that shape our decisions in the present. No one's experiences are more valid than anyone else's. They are what they are.

yoda57us
12-29-2010, 07:49 AM
I think we all have different experiences that shape our decisions in the present. No one's experiences are more valid than anyone else's. They are what they are.

Of course, those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it...

rickdugan
12-29-2010, 08:13 AM
There seems to be some amount of bragging. Look at me not as Chicken Little, but as someone that brings you back to reality. Its not all unicorns and rainbows. Experience has taught me that they have many tricks. }:D

So which tricks do you think have been run on you that have not been tried on other blues in here? Advance payment for services NOT rendered? Requests for loans? Shake downs for rent/bill payments using sob stories combined with hints of "genuine" affection? Stringalongs with girls pretending to be truly interested? ITC and OTC "you stole my money" or "you shorted me" cons? Upsell games? Others? Please do tell.

Most seasoned blues became so because they paid a certain amount of emotional and monetary tuition, myself very much included. The difference is that they learned from the experiences and, hopefully, they were smart and strong enough to limit the monetary damage done to them in the process.

As someone else said in another post, the fact that you got taken down is a YOU issue. I sincerely doubt that any seasoned blue in here is unaware of the variety of cons and games played by some strippers, but with tuition already paid they are generally savvy enough to sniff them out and to have rules of behavior designed to limit their exposures to these games.

If you want hide under your covers with your milk and cookies then cool beans, but you really shouldn't project your issues onto others.

yoda57us
12-29-2010, 09:10 AM
There seems to be some amount of bragging. Look at me not as Chicken Little, but as someone that brings you back to reality. Its not all unicorns and rainbows. Experience has taught me that they have many tricks. }:D

I guess there are also different versions of reality...

If you actually read our posts, instead of simply waiting for a spot where you can insert your agenda, you will see that none if use here are going into strip clubs with blinders on. High end club or low end club the fact is there are always going to be dancers looking to rip you off, suck you in to becoming an ATM or cause drama. Guess what? This is bad human behavior, not just bad stripper behavior...

What you call bragging is simply a few guys preferring to talk about our positive experiences rather than dwelling on the negative. We have learned that we can control what happens to us in the clubs. To a certain extent we do this by learning from our previous bad experiences. Being a bit cynical is a good thing. Being paranoid will get you nowhere.

lopaw
12-29-2010, 10:53 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but what rick & yoda said is oh-so-true. Most of us seasoned blues (or purples, in my case) have long ago paid our dues in learning the wiley ways of dancers. Even the newbs will best learn their lessons the hard way - experiencing things first hand tend to make a more lasting impression on people, so that they don't tend to make those same mistakes twice (hopefully).