View Full Version : The TSA touched my vagina
ArmySGT.
11-24-2010, 05:08 PM
"Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither". -name the famous author
Benjamin Franklin for 500 hundred, Alex!
An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.
Next!
KS_Stevia
11-24-2010, 06:46 PM
I've flown out of Ben Gurion in Israel. Holy hell there is some serious security there. If I recall, we had to show up 4 hours early. Multiple scans, multiple pat downs. And whilst it was tedious, it was always professional and actually moved very efficiently. Which is odd, because if anyone else has been to the Middle East, people have NO concept there of what a line is, or personal space, or general public organization.
KS_Stevia
11-24-2010, 06:47 PM
The thing about Israel is that they have a whole two international airports, the US has over eight hundred of them. Their security measures are incredibly good yes, but it is not something we could duplicate because of the difference in scale.
I have this medical device in my arm so I can't use the scanners. I don't really care if they see me naked but I have to let them touch my cunt because mt arm is broken.
And I have to go back to the Dr soon, so I have to fly again :-(
OMG hon, that looks intense. What happened, if you don't mind me asking? Glad you are ok.
nelly33
11-24-2010, 08:08 PM
I wouldn't say "racial profiling" is a good idea, but profiling in general...yes...is a good idea. That does not mean we should ignore blue-eyed blond-haired middle-aged women. However, the chances that a young male of apparent middle-eastern descent is a terrorist are a lot greater than an elderly woman who is obviously WASP-y. Failing to recognize this and use it is just plain stupid, as is treating both as equal terrorist threats.
I wouldn't say "racial profiling" is a good idea, but profiling in general...yes...is a good idea. That does not mean we should ignore blue-eyed blond-haired man. However, the chances that a young male of apparent African-American descent is a drug dealer are a lot greater than a young caucasion who is obviously WASP-y. Failing to recognize this and use it is just plain stupid, as is treating both as equal potential criminals.
Barely any words were changed, but I seriously doubt many people would look to the second paragraph and say it was reasonable, while many would look at the first and say it was reasonable. Middle-easterners are being discriminated against in a much more socially acceptable way than any other group these days, and to me it is sad...
Arialandre
11-24-2010, 09:30 PM
I would like to stand up and say that both those paragraphs SUCKED. Bloody racial profiling. Nelly23 I totally get what you were trying to say there and you're right, it IS sad.
LuvlyDancer
11-25-2010, 07:45 AM
It is a reconstructive surgery, I don't know why everyone with a medical device gets treated as high risk. We're really the most unlikely to try something, people with casts and canes and grannies. I have 9 pins in my arm (see x-ray). I need help to get to my seat, I can't attack anyone.
And the screeners are so ignorant. One asked me if I can REMOVE the device for inspection? Like, it's holding my arm together bitch, no I can take it off.
CuriousLatina
11-25-2010, 08:33 AM
No one reported them, even confidentially? I'm pretty sure the charges for that would be pretty serious.
The Passenger had no clue what went on, and that all was control by the Agents. She did what she though it was correct on her part. She was as young as I was, so a guess a bit naive.
I did reported the event and the agents to the supervisor. Sadly for me SHE just rolled her eyes, and shake her head as a "No No"..went to the agents, talk to them in a very casual manner, I saw her sharing laughs and smiles. I became the "Party Pooper" of the Check Point.
Understand, not because they are Supervisors, or Manager means their education level is higher than yours. Some get promoted due to Seniority, or because they got the job through a friend.
I had to quit, this was not a job for me. Specially when my priority was college, and not dealing with that kind of stress.
papillonluvr
11-25-2010, 09:17 AM
Just gonna pop in a bit on the racial profiling.
My maiden name is Hassan. But the rest of my name is as american as Brittany or Jennifer. And to top it off, I look as white, girl-next-door as Jennifer Aniston half the time. But, I always got pulled aside for additional screening.
Then I got married and my name changed to Ritchie. Do I get pulled aside anymore? Hardly ever.
Am I still the same person? Look the same? Yes. Is that profiling? Totally.
It was so annoying. I have missed flights before because of it. I purposely started going super-early to the airports because chances were I would get pulled aside. Now, I get there super early because I have a toddler to tote around. It is such a god-damn hassle.
I don't like it at all. I find have the time they miss things. I had a god damn wrench in my bag and some pliers, and somehow they missed it! But did they miss the unopened carton of juice for my little girl? Of course not!
Benjamin Franklin for 500 hundred, Alex!
Supposedly, it's a misquote. Regardless, still an accurate quote regardless of who actually said it. Freedom is not free. Freedom and liberties we enjoy, come with a cost, and that cost is people can and do take advantages of those freedoms, to do us harm. Freedom and liberty come with potential risks, and the problem is, people want their cake and eat it to: perfect security with all their freedoms and liberties intact.
The point is, at some point the level of liberties you give up "for your own safety" becomes not worth what you lost.
People either have to deal with the fact there's risk to a free society, or deal with ever reduced liberties and freedoms in the name of national security, etc.
Freedom, is not free.
Do these scanners cross that line of overly intrusive government in the name of questionable improvements in safety?* I do understand peoples discomfort with being scanned in such a manner that strangers are looking below their clothing (even if the actual images are not the least bit exposing) but can't agree with the the position some seem to take that essentially anything that makes flying safer (which is questionable...) is OK with them, is short sited thinking and a poor understanding the larger picture.
Government will always be happy to take away your freedoms and liberties (your Rights) for "your own good" and it's up to citizens to realize when what they lost/may lose is not worth the small increase in "safety" they received in the exchange.
Personally, I think that line was crosses a while ago but the sheeple must be protected...
* BTW, there are two types of these scanners, one that puts out a very low dose of X ray radiation, and one that puts out none, as it uses radio waves. Both appear equally effective, and cost approx the same as I understand it, and both are being tested at airports. People should make it clear, if we have to be scanned, the version using radio waves is preferred as any dose of ionizing radiation is best avoided if possble.
AmyLynne
11-25-2010, 10:34 AM
I was going to fake an orgasm as I got groped and have my BFvideo it so i could see how many youtube hits I get but then I heard you can get arrested for filming TSA!
CKXXX
11-25-2010, 11:16 AM
They take water bottles away not because of a power trip, but because it could be any one of dozens of liquid explosives or flammable agents that look just like water.
Yes thank you...I'm not an idiot, I know WHY it started. But it has become..."haha...we get to take shit away and control people all in the name of "security"
Tell me there was a REASON that I was lectured (yes...like a CHILD) over the SEALED 5 hr energy shot I forgot was in my purse at the Memphis airport a year or two ago..? For SO long I had to run, shouting as they closed the door on my flight to make it. He couldnt just take it....he had to puff up his idiot chest and tell me how stupid I was for forgetting I had it. Oh..and thats the same guy that totally missed my Taser and let me get on the plane with a 400,000 volt stun gun. Tell me this guy...who has an IQ of a sweat sock and an ego thats out of control..is making us SAFER?
And this is FAR from an isolated incident. If it was just one moron..then fine. Whatever. But I'd say, conservatively, 85% of the TSA agents I've had to deal with over the years were pretty similar. As have been the ones I have observed. Or friends have dealt with.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to break an old mans colostomy bag and make him sit in his urine for the whole flight without so much as an apology.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to pat down the bare legs of a 4 year girl while she screams "dont touch me" and climbs into her fathers arms.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to make a woman pull out her prosthetic breasts (after surviving breast cancer) in public.
These are just a FEW of the incidents lately.
I am all for security. That works. That makes sense. That doesnt cause more problems then it is supposed to avoid.
This isnt one of them.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 12:00 PM
Yes thank you...I'm not an idiot, I know WHY it started. But it has become..."haha...we get to take shit away and control people all in the name of "security"If something is banned and you try to pass security with it (by accident or not), how is that their fault and how is not letting you board with it controlling you????. If you simply didn't try to enter with the banned items you could avoid the "haha" incident all together. I'm a very frequent flyer- 500+ flights in the last 7 years, I make myself aware of the restrictions and show up to security with nothing prohibited, my belt, phone and metallic objects in the bin along with my shoes, my laptop in another bin. In all those flights I've never had a problem or a security person say anything to me other than, "have a nice flight".
Tell me there was a REASON that I was lectured (yes...like a CHILD) over the SEALED 5 hr energy shot I forgot was in my purse at the Memphis airport a year or two ago..? For SO long I had to run, shouting as they closed the door on my flight to make it. He couldnt just take it....he had to puff up his idiot chest and tell me how stupid I was for forgetting I had it. Oh..and thats the same guy that totally missed my Taser and let me get on the plane with a 400,000 volt stun gun. Tell me this guy...who has an IQ of a sweat sock and an ego thats out of control..is making us SAFER?
And this is FAR from an isolated incident. If it was just one moron..then fine. Whatever. But I'd say, conservatively, 85% of the TSA agents I've had to deal with over the years were pretty similar. As have been the ones I have observed. Or friends have dealt with.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to break an old mans colostomy bag and make him sit in his urine for the whole flight without so much as an apology.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to pat down the bare legs of a 4 year girl while she screams "dont touch me" and climbs into her fathers arms.
Tell me it was a matter of national security to make a woman pull out her prosthetic breasts (after surviving breast cancer) in public.
These are just a FEW of the incidents lately.
Hundreds of millions of people pass through security checkpoints in the U.S. each year, by the law of averages there are going to be many thousands of of bad, unfair and outrageous experiences that will occur. This is the case with any industry or activity that has that high a number of interactions. Given the volume and complexity of what's involved I think they are doing a great job.
I am all for security. That works. That makes sense. That doesnt cause more problems then it is supposed to avoid. This isnt one of them
Bottom line is out of the approx. 13 million flights per year in the U.S. exactly how many successful terrorist attacks have there been?. I'd say it works amazingly well.
Bottom line is out of the approx. 13 million flights per year in the U.S. exactly how many successful terrorist attacks have there been?. I'd say it works amazingly well.
Bottom line is i've never been attacked by a rampaging wildabeast, therefore my lucky wildabeast repellent sock has worked amazingly well.
hockeybobby
11-25-2010, 03:51 PM
^^^fucking wildabeasts. I need one of those socks.
Optimist
11-25-2010, 05:00 PM
And that is what makes it disturbing. I would feel more comfortable if they had more professional people doing this job.
While I was in college I was TSA Agent for a few months, could not tolerate working with such pure IGNORANCE. Way before these more invasive pat downs, I saw how many agents will purposely made the machines make the "BEEP" sound just to pat down a female of their likeing..after that female walked away, they would make comments, remarks, give each other the "You Go" smirk and looks... I just could not take it anymore. Also, I worked with 2 male agents that were in jail before for "minor drug charges" (according to them)
The qualifications to become TSA agents are very very low. Like KellyDancer mention, many are high school dropouts. They pay is pretty low also, so don't think they get pay a prestigious salary, normally is minimum wage or a dollar or two more. And drug tests are made not as often as they should. And training is the most absurd ever!!
I hate traveling by air due to the Check Point's experience. I know we need to be safe, and I agree with rigorous and intense searches, but if they are moving to more aggressive/invasive searches like this they need to start recruiting more professional people, (maybe health care professionals) or give them intense training on Handling the passengers, do regular drug tests, and criminal background checks, (some get the job through someone they know etc, so background checks are not made to all, at least not back then.) etc
I KNOW that's the fucking truth because I can't tell you how many times I've been "RANDOMLY" selected for further screening. Do they think I'm hiding bombs in my bra???? In my jeans??? and not just me but another dancer friend of mine. There's nothing random about it! I try not to fly and prefer taking the train and bus because I'm sick of being victimized.
They need to get actual security professionals instead of any old garbage they can scrape off the sidewalks and pay $8.
No one reported them, even confidentially? I'm pretty sure the charges for that would be pretty serious.
Who oversees these people? They are an authority unto themselves. Have you ever worked a bullshit entry level minimum wage job? They tend to have a juvenile culture because that's the level the people are on. So you go from one set of clowns to the head idiot in charge just to be ignored. They ignore the fact that they were supposed to STOP forcing people to take their shoes off years ago. They still brazenly do what they want.
Does anybody think for a minute that Obama would let his precious daughters and wife be crotch searched by some dumb bitch from the TSA??? Didn't think so.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 06:45 PM
My point is that with the media saturation that we have and with the amount of terrorist and crazy people running around that as a new threat is exposed, the powers that be have to take action to eliminate that security gap in the future before copycatters or opportunists take advantage of the gap. Before the shoe bomber we were fine with not having to have our shoes x-rayed, one he tried that, had they not implemented a well publicized change in procedure and started x-raying the shoes, it's pretty likely that another terrorist or a local crazy would have felt compelled to try the same thing. Same thing for the explosives in the underwear that are responsible for the latest security regulations.
There will be a new creative threat in the future and another security change to deal with that as well. Yes, it sucks, yes if they were smart they could hit us with a different one each week and completely ruin air travel and the economy, but that's just the way it is. I honesty hate the extra security both for the lines and inconvenience but I think the alternative of planes falling out of the sky and the economy in ruins is a much worse alternative.
There are lots of car bombing in quite a few trouble areas. The security forces in those areas have not figured out a way to stop them, so they continue unabated. Luckily, every attack so far attempted on an airplane has been able to have a security revision that's able to limit the chance of someone else doing it in the future. The terrorists and crazies then check that one of their lists. If you don't scan the shoes or check the crotch now- you will have dozens of copycatters taking their shot for fame and glory.
No one is arguing that security "checkpoints" aren't needed, but the procedures that have been in place for approximately a month are not.I would love for you to be right, but I haven't heard anyone suggest a reasonable idea to detect someone trying to board a plane with an explosive liquid or plastic explosive in their skivies. If you come up with something I'll be all ears and lobby for it's implementation.
Another article for consideration:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20004436-504083.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20004436-504083.html)
This not only depicts the behavior of TSA agents, but the possible human behavior and reactions of the general population. How do you think the Columbine High School Massacre was built? Bullying is a process that takes time..... invasion to personal space, shame, guilt, fear, intimidation, threat of punishment (in this case fines), manhandling, treating them like animals.... I read the story and this just relates to what I said earlier- human beings are imperfect and lots of them are defective. There are tens of thousands of TSA workers, you're going to have dozens and dozens of them involved in all kinds of criminal actions, flipping out and doing really horrible things. But you are going to have those same stories for dentists, police, teachers and priests too. It's just a numbers game- there is no way around it until you get robots handling security.
Just what type of population will this create in the generation to come? Do you really think 4 year olds are going to process that in a way that won't be problematic? There will be some that will repress and internalize, but then some who will process that as fuel for violence. On one hand, we say we don't want any more Timothy McVeighs......but this is where it starts... in their childhood.I think this issue is almost completely defined by how the parent or caretaker handles it with the child in question. If they explain it in a calm manner and say that there are some bad people out there and thank goodness we have these people here and some fantastic machines that are able to protect us, there will be very little negative impact. If however they react with anger, hostility and are exuding a lot of tension, many of those feeling will be transferred to the child and it's likely the child will have negative feelings about travelling and also may have fearful thoughts about the world at large.
(And again I want to say this is not an attack against you, but rather the issue at hand).No worries at all, I love discussing topics and exhanging thoughts and ideas.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 07:14 PM
Who oversees these people? They are an authority unto themselves. Have you ever worked a bullshit entry level minimum wage job? They tend to have a juvenile culture because that's the level the people are on. So you go from one set of clowns to the head idiot in charge just to be ignored.http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/mgmtrpts/OIGr_09-05_Oct08.pdf
They are overseen by the Department of Homeland Security, which means you can go pretty far up the food chain if you have a legitimate complaint. In addition all these areas are under heavy video surveillance, so there should be plenty of evidence to back up any claims that might be made. In addition, there is almost never a time you are inderacting with TSA without quite a few witnesses around. Infractions and crimes committed pertaining to this job are very serious with pretty bad as far as consequences.
There is a formal established process for filing complaints that can be done pretty easily and may be done through the TSA, the Department of Homeland Security or both.http://www.tsa.gov/research/civilrights/civilrights_travelers.shtm
I still contend that if you're aware of the restrictions, aren't trying to bring any banned items through, mind your own business and move along as instructed, you'll have very few problems. I'm usually a singe male traveler with dark hair and get flagged all the time, I answer their questions, go through the extra search and am on my way.
loren
11-25-2010, 07:23 PM
I almost got arrested for protesting. Apparently McCarren is private property. I was talking to a reporter from the Las Vegas Review Journal when 3 cops and 1 department of aviation guy surrounded me and escorted me to the exit. They said if I did not leave with them voluntarily I would be fined and put in jail. They made me give them my social security number and they wrote down my home address from my ID card. All I did was stand with a sign. I did not yell or scream or argue with anyone.
loren
11-25-2010, 07:48 PM
Why am I being accused of being a Muslim terrorist simply for wearing shoes. The officials who worked for Mussulini, Franco, Hitler and Stalin got paid too didn't they? Wasn't the economy really bad? Weren't they convinced that violating the rights of others and killing "the enemy" was for the Safety of their country? They actually thought they were doing something good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8f_-dLYKCY
I am not afraid of Muslims. I am afraid of the economic bankorrists who want a New World Order.
I am shocked that business owners are not protesting like hell. They don't realize that the economy is going to get a lot worse if people are afraid to come here. No body went to Russia when it was a communist country because they were afraid. That is what the US is becoming.
We are like lobsters in a pot of room temperature water. The chef is slowly turning up the heat little by little so we won't jump out. By the time we figure it out we won't be able to jump out because we will already be partially cooked.
If you are one day late on government mandated car insurance you will be fined $250. No excuses. If you are one day late on your car registration you will have your license suspended and if you drive you will be put in jail.
We already have submitted to corporate communism in just the last few years. People just keep making excuses because they want to think everything will be better next year. But each year we get more and more you must do this exactly when we say or go to jail laws.
We are being dehumanized more and more each year. Things are not getting better they are getting worse and worse. Why - because everyone is silent while the chef just keeps turning up the heat little by little. The chef knows if he turned up the heat full blast right away we would all jump out.
CKXXX
11-25-2010, 08:26 PM
If something is banned and you try to pass security with it (by accident or not), how is that their fault and how is not letting you board with it controlling you????. If you simply didn't try to enter with the banned items you could avoid the "haha" incident all together. I'm a very frequent flyer- 500+ flights in the last 7 years, I make myself aware of the restrictions and show up to security with nothing prohibited, my belt, phone and metallic objects in the bin along with my shoes, my laptop in another bin. In all those flights I've never had a problem or a security person say anything to me other than, "have a nice flight".
Hundreds of millions of people pass through security checkpoints in the U.S. each year, by the law of averages there are going to be many thousands of of bad, unfair and outrageous experiences that will occur. This is the case with any industry or activity that has that high a number of interactions. Given the volume and complexity of what's involved I think they are doing a great job.
Bottom line is out of the approx. 13 million flights per year in the U.S. exactly how many successful terrorist attacks have there been?. I'd say it works amazingly well.
Unless I forget...I'm human..I DONT bring anything banned onboard. Up until this year, I traveled very frequently for work and was always ready with everything in the bins, laptop out, etc... And you CAN get on a plane with all the water bottles you want....as long as you buy it from them of course. Think that has nothing to do with it? Think again...airports are capitalists like everyone else.
And I'm glad that you think that the incidents I cited were perfectly acceptable exceptions. I do not. I dont think that ONE of them is acceptable and that the agents who did them should be fired if not prosecuted.
To accept that anything and everything is fine in the name of national security is an insanely slippery slope that we absolutely should NOT be on. If they say they need to do a cavity search will you submit to that happily as well? What if it is your child? Or your grandmother...are you ok with someone slipping their fingers inside them in the name of "national security"? Because if you dont think thats coming, you are naive.
There has been exactly ONE act of terrorism involving an plane on US soil in the past 50 years. This is not the huge problem people want to make it out to be.
On this Thanksgiving Day...I'm thankful that I dont have to fly constantly anymore.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 08:41 PM
Bottom line is i've never been attacked by a rampaging wildabeast, therefore my lucky wildabeast repellent sock has worked amazingly well.How many wildabeast are actively planning to attack you currently?. There are thousands of muslim extremists that have as their number one goal the bringing down of a U.S. airplane, there have been close to a dozen attempts that we know about as well as one successful attack that killed 4,000 civilians.
I have to ask, do you think the threat is not credible?, or that if we cease the new scanners and the crotch-pat, that no one else will attempt the underwear bomb like the bomber from last Thanksgiving?. Do you have an alternative to detect someone bringing plastic explosives on board?. Not trying to be a smart-ass, just genuinely curious.
rickdugan
11-25-2010, 08:51 PM
What exactly is the TSA of Federal government gaining by doing these scans or pat downs?. Each of the responses of the TSA has been the result of an actual attack attempt. The reason for the pat-down and the new scans and the reason they are being deployed right now is from the underwear bomber last Thanksgiving en route to Detroit. Unless the gov't is planting these people to carryout the attacks so they can remove freedom etc., it just seems like they are responding to the actual threats the best way they can.
Do you have any suggestions?, how do you stop the white girlfriend of a muslim extremist who's been brainwashes/coerced into getting on a plane with plastic explosives sewn in her underwear?.
Got it. Heck, why stop there? If every vehicle was equipped with cameras and bomb detection equipment we would never have car bombers.
In fact, we could also equip every vehicle with breathalyzers to ensure than nobody ever drives drunk because, after all, hundreds are killed each year due to drunk driving. And while we are at it, why not require each person to submit to random drug tests? After all, drugs are illegal and do you know how many people die each year due to drug violence? ::)
There is always a "good reason" to implement invasive procedures, but as a society we strike a balance between the need to protect others from bad acts and the need to protect personal liberties. And IMHO, body scans and crotch grabbing cross that line. Once we allow this sort of thing in airports, it is a short jump to their application in other places.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 09:09 PM
Unless I forget...I'm human..I DONT bring anything banned onboard. Up until this year, I traveled very frequently for work and was always ready with everything in the bins, laptop out, etc... And you CAN get on a plane with all the water bottles you want....as long as you buy it from them of course. Think that has nothing to do with it? Think again...airports are capitalists like everyone else.If there is even the smallest possibility of having a problem with the water, why not just wait 10 minutes and buy it on the other side of the concourse. Since you had everything all set and in the bins etc., how many problems did you personally experience?.
And I'm glad that you think that the incidents I cited were perfectly acceptable exceptions. I do not. I dont think that ONE of them is acceptable and that the agents who did them should be fired if not prosecuted.Please show where I posted anything about those incidents being acceptable. I said that out of the hundreds of millions of interactions there were going to be thousands and thousands of problems and bad incidents. I wasn't implying it was OK, I was stating the law of averages. I am completely in favor of reprimanding, firing or imprisoning any TSA who does something improper. As I would be for any doctor, police officer or priest who does likewise.
To accept that anything and everything is fine in the name of national security is an insanely slippery slope that we absolutely should NOT be on. If they say they need to do a cavity search will you submit to that happily as well? What if it is your child? Or your grandmother...are you ok with someone slipping their fingers inside them in the name of "national security"? Because if you dont think thats coming, you are naive.Flying is in no way a right, it's a luxury. I currently do and will in the future weigh out the inconvenience vs. my desire to fly. I am OK with a pat-down/screen and so I go. If in the future they start exploring rectums, I would likely stay grounded till they have the technology to do the exam non-invasively. Same goes for my child-my grandmother can make her own decision.
There has been exactly ONE act of terrorism involving an plane on US soil in the past 50 years. This is not the huge problem people want to make it out to be.I've been trying to be open-minded and polite in this discussion, but on this one....ARE YOU INSANE??????. That one attack killed 4,000 civilians. From your comments I don't think you lived in New York at the time of the attack and felt it's aftermath. Besides losing a family member I also had dozens of friends lose their businesses and jobs, some of them have still not recovered. From my perspective and also for reasons of common sense, it seems very logical to me to put up with a pat-down or a hard-core screening to avoid even the smallest chance of a replay of that day. It also crippled our economy for months and may have been fatal in destroying the economy had follow-up attacks occured.
Financial markets never opened on Sept. 11, 2001, and remained closed for the next four trading sessions. When stocks began trading again on Sept. 17, the results were predictably gloomy. The Dow Jones industrial average plunged 684.71 points, its biggest one-day point loss in history. http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/08/markets/markets_fiveyearslater/index.htm
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 09:13 PM
That's awesome!. The minute that it is proven affective and is implemented in the airport- I will be on board 100%- likewise for anything else that can get the job done.
jimboe7373
11-25-2010, 09:25 PM
And I agree with you as well, but I still say that until those alternatives are in place, you shouldn't leave yourself exposed with the stakes as high as they are.
BTW, the scanners emit almost no radiation:
"Despite the hype, the radiation risk from the airport scanners is very, very small.
One scan from a typical "backscatter" security scanner might deliver 0.005 to 0.01 millirem - far, far below the 10,000 millirem that is considered the danger threshold.
"There is no known risk" from being scanned, Dr. Francis Marre, former director of radiation safety at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, tells CBS News. "It's never been demonstrated."http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-204_162-10005685-2.html?tag=page
Austinrox
11-25-2010, 10:29 PM
Benjamin Franklin for 500 hundred, Alex!
An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.
Next!
Thomas Jefferson. I like these also:
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
ArmySGT.
11-25-2010, 11:00 PM
The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.
The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.
I'm sure some of you remember, post 9/11, pilots were supposed to be trained, and armed. I asked someone who is in the know regarding the program that was suppose to arm the pilots, he said:
"Research into the FFDO program will show you that the bureaucrats have fought it, crippled it and actively sabotaged it from the first time it was suggested.Senior airline captains with thousands of hours who are former military pilots with security clearances have been disqualified as "unstable"."
So, spend millions on high tech machines and questionable pat downs, and prevent some of the obvious solutions already passed and approved. Once again, passenger safety is secondary to politics and feel good BS. Some additional reading:
Unarmed Pilots, Unsafe Skies Thanks to TSA (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/unarmed-pilots-unsafe-skies-thanks-to-tsa/)
I have to ask, do you think the threat is not credible?, or that if we cease the new scanners and the crotch-pat, that no one else will attempt the underwear bomb like the bomber from last Thanksgiving?. Do you have an alternative to detect someone bringing plastic explosives on board?. Not trying to be a smart-ass, just genuinely curious.
I think the threat is credible, if overblown. What i don't think is credible is our defense to it. Test after test has shown that if someone wants to sneak a bomb into a plane they can do so incredibly easy, terrorist plots are not stopped in airports. Everything the TSA does is to make people feel secure, not to stop any credible threats and frankly i don't want some asshole cupping my junk because grandma is afraid of brown people.
phoenixchk88
11-26-2010, 11:26 AM
I would also highly reccomend Amtrak if you can take the time instead of flying... Perzonlly Im terrified of flying to the point I have to be sedated to get on a plane but whatever the reason Amtrak is pretty fun! You get a huge seat, you can get up and walk around, you can even get a provate care if you have the $$$.
Athenathefabulous
11-26-2010, 12:28 PM
My point is that with the media saturation that we have and with the amount of terrorist and crazy people running around that as a new threat is exposed, the powers that be have to take action to eliminate that security gap in the future before copycatters or opportunists take advantage of the gap. Before the shoe bomber we were fine with not having to have our shoes x-rayed, one he tried that, had they not implemented a well publicized change in procedure and started x-raying the shoes, it's pretty likely that another terrorist or a local crazy would have felt compelled to try the same thing. Same thing for the explosives in the underwear that are responsible for the latest security regulations.
There will be a new creative threat in the future and another security change to deal with that as well. Yes, it sucks, yes if they were smart they could hit us with a different one each week and completely ruin air travel and the economy, but that's just the way it is. I honesty hate the extra security both for the lines and inconvenience but I think the alternative of planes falling out of the sky and the economy in ruins is a much worse alternative.
There are lots of car bombing in quite a few trouble areas. The security forces in those areas have not figured out a way to stop them, so they continue unabated. Luckily, every attack so far attempted on an airplane has been able to have a security revision that's able to limit the chance of someone else doing it in the future. The terrorists and crazies then check that one of their lists. If you don't scan the shoes or check the crotch now- you will have dozens of copycatters taking their shot for fame and glory.
I would love for you to be right, but I haven't heard anyone suggest a reasonable idea to detect someone trying to board a plane with an explosive liquid or plastic explosive in their skivies. If you come up with something I'll be all ears and lobby for it's implementation.
I read the story and this just relates to what I said earlier- human beings are imperfect and lots of them are defective. There are tens of thousands of TSA workers, you're going to have dozens and dozens of them involved in all kinds of criminal actions, flipping out and doing really horrible things. But you are going to have those same stories for dentists, police, teachers and priests too. It's just a numbers game- there is no way around it until you get robots handling security.
I think this issue is almost completely defined by how the parent or caretaker handles it with the child in question. If they explain it in a calm manner and say that there are some bad people out there and thank goodness we have these people here and some fantastic machines that are able to protect us, there will be very little negative impact. If however they react with anger, hostility and are exuding a lot of tension, many of those feeling will be transferred to the child and it's likely the child will have negative feelings about travelling and also may have fearful thoughts about the world at large.
No worries at all, I love discussing topics and exhanging thoughts and ideas.
In regards to this:
A. nobody has attempted to put a bomb in their underwear since las thanksgiving. we did not get a rush of underwear bomber copy cats.
B. Serious question- what do we do when someone shoves a bomb up their asshole? seriously,... it could happen. what next?
also, if im not mistaken, these scanners dont even pick up all types of explosives. it sounds like the method christany posted would be better at detecting bombs. however, considering each scanner runs at 170,000$, someone is making a pretty penny and would probably not be pleased if all this money went to a different company....
Wolverine
11-26-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm a very frequent flyer- 500+ flights in the last 7 years, I make myself aware of the restrictions and show up to security with nothing prohibited, my belt, phone and metallic objects in the bin along with my shoes, my laptop in another bin. In all those flights I've never had a problem or a security person say anything to me other than, "have a nice flight".
This is what I've been telling people as well. Read the rules (TSA is linked on nearly every airline website), and you won't have any issues. I don't fly quite as much as you, but I do get around. I follow the rules and have never had any problems. Plain and simple. I do feel really bad for the bladder cancer guy (there may have been any number of ways that could have been handled), though.
CKXXX
11-26-2010, 06:07 PM
If there is even the smallest possibility of having a problem with the water, why not just wait 10 minutes and buy it on the other side of the concourse. Since you had everything all set and in the bins etc., how many problems did you personally experience?.
Please show where I posted anything about those incidents being acceptable. I said that out of the hundreds of millions of interactions there were going to be thousands and thousands of problems and bad incidents. I wasn't implying it was OK, I was stating the law of averages. I am completely in favor of reprimanding, firing or imprisoning any TSA who does something improper. As I would be for any doctor, police officer or priest who does likewise.
Flying is in no way a right, it's a luxury. I currently do and will in the future weigh out the inconvenience vs. my desire to fly. I am OK with a pat-down/screen and so I go. If in the future they start exploring rectums, I would likely stay grounded till they have the technology to do the exam non-invasively. Same goes for my child-my grandmother can make her own decision.
I've been trying to be open-minded and polite in this discussion, but on this one....ARE YOU INSANE??????. That one attack killed 4,000 civilians. From your comments I don't think you lived in New York at the time of the attack and felt it's aftermath. Besides losing a family member I also had dozens of friends lose their businesses and jobs, some of them have still not recovered. From my perspective and also for reasons of common sense, it seems very logical to me to put up with a pat-down or a hard-core screening to avoid even the smallest chance of a replay of that day. It also crippled our economy for months and may have been fatal in destroying the economy had follow-up attacks occured.
Financial markets never opened on Sept. 11, 2001, and remained closed for the next four trading sessions. When stocks began trading again on Sept. 17, the results were predictably gloomy. The Dow Jones industrial average plunged 684.71 points, its biggest one-day point loss in history. http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/08/markets/markets_fiveyearslater/index.htm
1) as far as personally experienced problems....did you read what I wrote before? Those were just a cpl of the issues I have dealt with personally
2) I'm well aware it is not a right.However, civil liberties ARE. This is a violation of them.
3)no I'm not insane. I'm FROM that area and am well aware of the impact. But it was also ONE incident (or 3 actually at the same time). Its not like terrorists are crawling all over airports every day strapped with bombs. If this tragedy was not repeated BEFORE these scans were put into place...I dare say they are not a necessity.
I'm glad you accept whatever the government tells you. I however, prefer to use common sense.
Melonie
11-27-2010, 01:34 AM
well, it might go pretty far ... since it could be based on the same legal rationale that justified banning smoking for reasons of protecting the health of others via 'second-hand' exposure ... or the same legal rationale that allows cities to ban nude lap dances !!!
(snip)"Syphilis, lice, gonorrhea, ringworm, chlamydia, staph, strep, noro and papilloma viruses all are part of the possible fringe benefits when airline passengers next go through a full hands-on pat-down by agents of the federal government's Transportation Security Administration, according to doctors. (snip)
(snip)"Now two doctors and several others have confirmed that there is the definite possibility that passengers will be able to catch whatever someone in front of them in line was suffering from via the latex gloves TSA workers use."(snip)
(snip)"Air travel passengers across America have been complaining of the TSA fingering their genitalia and touching their sex organs. Just this week, an ABC News employee was fingered by a TSA agent who felt around inside her underwear. ... This process of touching traveler's genitals without consistently changing latex gloves means the TSA is involved in extremely risky behavior that could spread disease," the website warned."(snip)
from
Clara_M
11-27-2010, 10:43 PM
the point that everybody seems to be missing here is that every one of the TSA's supposed safety measures is a case of 'locking the barn door after the horse is gone'.
... and the ultimate ridiculous example of it is the new ban on printer cartridges, because someone tried to use one to hide a bomb. Obviously a laptop/phone/toaster/coffeemaker (etc) can be used just as much, but the reactive mentality is "ban printer cartridges from flying" (which is more ridiculous than annoying, as it's not an item that one will commonly want to fly with anyway).
That being said, I'm amazed at some of things I *have* been allowed to take as carry-on, because they're not explicitely forbidden!
rubyredlipsss
11-27-2010, 11:51 PM
i've carried on scissors. the tsa agent literally pulled them out, looked at them and put them back in my bag. i don't really have much to add because so many of you have taken the time to write out the precise reasons why these scanners are absurd. it really disturbs me that the war on terror has become such a blatant excuse to continuously erode our 4th amendment rights. so, i just wanted say a big thank you who are participating in this conversation and are educating yourselves in regards to this issue.
Tyler True
11-28-2010, 12:12 AM
This has been going on in other countries for decades. Their children don't know no other way. I am sad that this country has lost its innocents but we all lose it sometime don't we.
jester214
11-28-2010, 10:14 AM
4. Aliens get a hold of the scans and find you have the perfect body type for a human host of the alien-human hybrid they want to make. You are abducted in a space ship, probed, and used to make an alien baby. ::)
jester214
11-28-2010, 12:26 PM
When you reach a certain level of ludicrousness mockery and ::) emoticons are really the only tools that make sense. Your situations are about as realistic as mine.
LuvlyDancer
11-28-2010, 01:08 PM
My most popular thread ever!
But, can I get some sympathy for the condition of my arm?
The screws are through the skin, very susceptible to infection... these dirty gloves are so risky to me because they INSIST on touching the medical device and they are so ignorant they don't understand open wounds need to be kept STERILE. They touched one of the pins with that cloth on a stick once to swab for bombs. It makes me so upset, I'm flying again in 7 daysl
Athenathefabulous
11-28-2010, 06:44 PM
Trem, you will appreciate this.
http://www.feminisnt.com/2010/my-experience-mocking-tsa-security-theater-at-seatac-as-a-nearly-naked-enfant-terrible/
this girl is in porn and decided to strip down to her see thru skivvies in the airport. i think she also faked an orgasm during the grope down. why they needed to pat her down after seeing her in her see thru underwear where bombs could have been seen? i dont know. well i do, its because logical thinking is not in line with the TSA. this chick is awesome though.
also, a guy in a speedo goes thru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sL3uMWujmw
Bwahahaha, that chick is freaking awesome!
unbeleavable
11-28-2010, 07:52 PM
I love it great vid..Athenathefabulous...I think I'm going to try that!
jester214
11-28-2010, 11:34 PM
You don't know much about the high level security back ground checks done on by people in sensitive governmental positions and certain military careers... Oh and the employers asking for passwords was, I beleive, a few Police departments. You act if that was some widespread thing that is now customary.
The idea that an employer would care about the health of someone 25+ years down the road is just silly... The idea that they would go to great lengths to try and figure out something like that is even crazier. MAYBE MAYBE one job in several million MIGHT be like that. Even stretching my imagination I have trouble trying to figure out a job where it would be worth it.
They would be better off, more accurate and likely cheaper results, from just requiring a medical exam for applicants.
I could dissect your other two crazy scenarios as they are equally unlikely, but what's the point.
There are legitimate issues with the scans. Recognize those instead of trying to create crazy theorecticals that might scare people into beleiving you. Which is in fact, what certain people have suggested is the whole point of said scanners.
jimboe7373
11-29-2010, 12:07 PM
1) as far as personally experienced problems....did you read what I wrote before? Those were just a cpl of the issues I have dealt with personallyI went back and read your posts, unless I missed something the only two incidents you mentioned were when the agent didn't know what your asthma inhaler was- but seemed to have let you board with and when you accidentely forgot the 5 hour energy drink bottle. The first one doesn't sound like too much of an incident and as for the second, that was as mentioned earlier a case of YOU forgetting and having a hassle as a result.
2) I'm well aware it is not a right.However, civil liberties ARE. This is a violation of them. Civil liberties many times don't extend to optional areas of life, especially when other people's safety is involved. For example, if you want to drive legally, you HAVE to have a license and you HAVE to have insurance and your car HAS to be inspected. Driving is a luxury and not a right and as such in our society you have to adhere to specific rules to ensure the public safety as much as possible. If you don't want to bother with the hassle then you can use alternate modes of transportation, it's your call. Same goes for air-travel.
3)no I'm not insane. I'm FROM that area and am well aware of the impact. But it was also ONE incident (or 3 actually at the same time).I didn't accuse you of not being aware of the impact, I surmised that you hadn't "felt" the impact, as in going to 19 wakes and 11 funerals in a 2 month span and seeing dozens of children in shock from losing a parent in their prime as well as having $0 income from your business for 6 months.
Its not like terrorists are crawling all over airports every day strapped with bombs. If this tragedy was not repeated BEFORE these scans were put into place...I dare say they are not a necessity.Part of the reason there are not terrorists all over is the deterrent value of what we've done security wise. 99% of people are followers and will copycat but won't innovate. After 9/11 they secured the doors in every plane, after the shoe bomber they scan all shoes-these things won't stop the 1% of terrorists who are going to figure out a new way to do damage, but it will severely curtail the 99% who would be likely to copycat something that worked that didn't have a response to correct it.
Melonie frequenly uses the example of these reactions being like "locking the barn door after the horse has escaped". The question is, if one horse has escaped because the door was unlocked, don't you then lock it immediately so that the other 12 horses still in the barn don't escape as well?. In addition, local crazies most likely don't currently have access to the explosives necessary to do something like this-that can change. Al Qaeda typically plans an operation for a minimum of 12 months or longer. They attacked the World Trade Center in '93 and then again in '01. They don't operate on "our" time frame.
I'm glad you accept whatever the government tells you. I however, prefer to use common sense.You've got the wrong guy on this one, I believed so little of what the government told me during the previous administration that I left the country. With this however, I KNOW that there are terrorists plotting to blow planes up, I KNOW the damage that will result to the economy and the country if they are able to routinely bring down planes, I KNOW that I would rather have a bunch of people b*tching and complaining than have people get killed and the economy ruined because sufficient action wasn't taken to deterr a terrorist or crazy person.
jimboe7373
11-29-2010, 02:20 PM
Got it. Heck, why stop there? If every vehicle was equipped with cameras and bomb detection equipment we would never have car bombers.
In fact, we could also equip every vehicle with breathalyzers to ensure than nobody ever drives drunk because, after all, hundreds are killed each year due to drunk driving. And while we are at it, why not require each person to submit to random drug tests? After all, drugs are illegal and do you know how many people die each year due to drug violence? ::)
There is always a "good reason" to implement invasive procedures, but as a society we strike a balance between the need to protect others from bad acts and the need to protect personal liberties. And IMHO, body scans and crotch grabbing cross that line. Once we allow this sort of thing in airports, it is a short jump to their application in other places.There are several difference between all your examples and security concerning airlines. For one, we can absorb tens of thousands of deaths from drunk driving. Besides the very unfortunate people who are killed or injured there is little extenuating fallout. There are lawsuits and insurance payouts, but those are already factored into premiums and therefore do not have too much of an impact.
The airline industry is so vital to our economy that, if terrorists were able to exploit a gap in our defense MULTIPLE times over a period of time and we were unable to stop them from doing it- the airline business would collapse and take a good portion if not our entire economy with it.
Another difference is that while lots of people may hem and haw about these issues, it's very likely that the insurures of the airlines or the airlines themselves would not let the planes fly if "every" precaution to a "known" threat were not employed. Lastly, the Department of Homeland Security and the TSA, have as their most important mission protecting U.S. citizens from harm. In their point of view, people being offended, embarrassed or upset about these scans and searches takes a backseat to people being blown out of the sky 100-300 at a time. Also from their perspective is the fact that IF a terrorist strike did occur and the method was a KNOWN threat that they didn't act on- they would be liable for huge amounts of financial damages and other sever repurcussions. I also have very little doubt that should that ever take place, many of the most vocal critics of these policies would then be accusing them of incompetence and failing to protect us etc.
loren
11-29-2010, 06:30 PM
To accept that anything and everything is fine in the name of national security is an insanely slippery slope that we absolutely should NOT be on. If they say they need to do a cavity search will you submit to that happily as well? What if it is your child? Or your grandmother...are you ok with someone slipping their fingers inside them in the name of "national security"? Because if you dont think thats coming, you are naive.
There has been exactly ONE act of terrorism involving an plane on US soil in the past 50 years. This is not the huge problem people want to make it out to be.Thank you.
I am to the point now where I realize that ALL AMERICANS need to get their ass in gear and put on their thinking caps. I am not afraid of republicans anymore because we all need to start talking about looking behind the mask, not at it.
Hate and Fear of Muslims and Mexicans is being used to take our focus off of that private banking cartel that we pay our taxes to; the falsely named US Federal Reserve.They are not elected by the people and they have complete control over our economy.
When I first started learning about the information below I was sad and upset- you will probably be sad and upset too. But like me, at least you will be more aware.
Our politicians have absolutely no control over the economy at all. The Commander in Chief - our President- only knows about 20% of black op military projects. US citizens pay 6% interest to the economic bankorrists who own the falsely named US Federal Reserve. Why? Because the IRS collects our taxes and then gives it to the bankorrists. The bankorrists LOAN Our Money to OUR Government at 6% interest! They also own the mainstream media. They want us to be afraid of Mexicans and Muslims even though the bankorrists are causing entire families to be homeless.
It seems like a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum in the US are missing some information about the brutal reality of the banking/tax system, Eugenics/Elitism and some very important facts regarding 911. They also don't seem to realize that Communism and Monarchy are essentially the same thing. A few super rich people at the top with everyone else living in extreme poverty; and fear of those at the top.
Most people take what the Tea Party, Independents, Republicans, Democrats and Libertarians say at face value. They don't realize that our elected "government" are like Hanzel and Gretyl. They are doing their best to leave a trail of bread crumbs. But the people just keep eating the bread. If only they had a brain, and courage, and the heart to follow the trail. They would see the same beautiful white pigeon sent by the evil witch, that Hanzel and Gretyl followed. This beautiful pigeon would lead them to the cottage built of cake and candy where Hanzel and Gretyl are being held; aka the falsely named US Federal Reserve. They would meet the evil witch and listen to her phony promises of security. The witch is the big 9 PRIVATE bank cartel which OWNS the falsely named US Federal Reserve. The SECRET of Oz is that the big 9 are NOT ELECTED by the people. Yet the falsely named US Federal Reserve has been in charge of our economy since 1913. Wouldn't it be nice if all we had to do was CLICK OUR SILVER SLIPPERS 3 TIMES?
http://www.youtube.com/user/bstill3#p/a/u/1/U71-KsDArFM
911 Loose Change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE at 15 minutes - mentions George W's plane crashing into a light pole on November 22, 2004. Compare this to the 911 pentagon attack. Remember that JFK was assassinated on November 22nd 1963. JFK wanted to federalize the US Federal Reserve.
What happened on November 22, 2004 was either an act of God, or a warning by people who are not really as powerful as we think.
President Regan also wanted to federalize the US Federal Reserve.
George W's dad was the head of the CIA. When Bush Senior was serving as the Vice President, an assassination attempt was made on President Regan. If the former head of the CIA, who was serving as the Vice President of the US, was unable to protect the President from the economic bankorrists... we have a big big big problem.
The real reason JFK was assassinated and why no President can do anything about the economy. It's up to us. 310 million strong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWWO-FZKscY
There is no reason for anyone to take off their shoes or submit to an underwear check!
Michele.2
11-30-2010, 07:14 PM
http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment
k is Bliss
11-30-2010, 07:26 PM
I'm sorry but I can't feel bad for you. They are doing this to protect us! Unfortunately the way the world is today, we have to go to extreme measures to prevent another 9/11... I am so sick of hearing people bitch about this! If they didn't do this and you got on a plane and it was taken over by a terrorist and your plane was heading for a building, then I bet all the people that complained about security measures would be begging to go back in time and get searched. It's better to be safe than sorry.
oh my oh my...i couldn't even read the other posts past this one without stopping to reply. Shame Shame on you! It is truly un-American to hand over our security and liberty and freedom in the name of the ignorant fear of what might happen if we don't. Shame on you for saying such a thing as women should not bitch about feeling violated because it is for our own protection. Perhaps we should insist that police officers come door to door and check to make sure our neighbors aren't hiding explosives in their coochies as well. This is retarded! Maybe if you are so afraid of being attacked by the bad guys....maybe you should tell your government to stop going to wars on foreign soil and keep our brave home to protect us here. Maybe attacking other countries and policing people who never asked for it isn't a wise strategy of keeping others from wanting to attack us. But no you are probably right, let's just do whatever they tell us is in our best interest and bend over and take it up the ass to fight terror!
xxxchili
11-30-2010, 07:36 PM
So I was going through security and I'm pretty sure that it was my piercings that was making things go off. So, this old guy wands me down and I'm still beeping. He directs me over to this machine that is a "puffer" machine (i really don't know what its called), it blows air at you from all angles. The dress that I was wearing was skin tight and then flared out over my butt. It was pretty short.
Anyway, my boyfriend and my two children were with me and they're watching everything happen. So I am directed over to this machine that has four completely clear walls. So everyone in the security checkpoint can see what is going on. Also, I need to mention that I always wear tiny thongs. So the next thing that happens is that the machine starts puffing air everywhere. Next thing I know is that my dress is blown up and everyone in line at security can see my ass. I pulled my dress down right away, but not before everyone was staring. I was so embarrassed! My children were completely shocked and my boyfriend was pissed at the security guy. I felt like it was inappropriate. It could have been done in private and supervised by a female security guard. I don't know how showing the entire airport my ass is helping security. Anyway...I'm wearing pants to the airport for now on!!!!!!!!!!