View Full Version : Men, the chances of you dating a dancer are slim.
jack0177057
12-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Guys this is how you get a stripper to love you:
Step 1: Be rich
Step 2: Be generous, spend money in and out of the club.
Step 3: Be fucking hot.
See its quite easy really...
All kidding aside for a second, the sad and ironic fact is that many dancers (SW dancers excluded) are dating or married to (or separated from) a-hole bums.
When dancers learn that I'm a lawyer (I only mention it because they ask what I do for a living), 65% of the time, they will ask me legal questions about child custody, divorce and domestic abuse. One dancer recently pulled out her cell phone to show me pictures of herself after her BF assaulted her - it was very sad. She wanted to know what she should do. I referred her to the district attorney's office (I almost offered to take her there myself, but I decided not to, because it didn't seem appropriate).
Kellydancer
12-30-2010, 01:01 PM
^ All kidding aside for a second, the sad and ironic fact is that many dancers (SW dancers excluded) are dating or married to (or separated from) a-hole bums.
When dancers learn that I'm a lawyer (I only mention it because they ask what I do for a living), 65% of the time, they will ask me legal questions about child custody, divorce and domestic abuse. One dancer recently pulled out her cell phone to show me pictures of herself after her BF assaulted her - it was very sad. She wanted to know what she should do. I referred her to the district attorney's office (I almost offered to take her there myself, but I decided not to, because it didn't seem appropriate).
Sadly, dancers often have low self esteem and this is why I think they do it. I know even when I started dancing (or rather before) I dated a few guys I never should have. Oh they never abused me but weren't good guys. I've never understood why they didn't drop them. One dancer I worked with had a husband who beat her if she brought home less than $200 a night and other girls who's husband didn't work at all, nor did he cook or clean so they did all of that. There are even a few dancers here who are married/dating guys who are jerks.
jack0177057
12-30-2010, 01:53 PM
^ That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case.
Perhaps the dancer's low self-esteem also works against a dancer-custie relationship - for example: a "nice" and successful wealthy young guy who is perfect BF/husband material asks a low self-esteem dancer out on a date. She would love to date this guy, but, due to her low self-esteem, she thinks he only want her for sex, so she turns him down. She doesn't think an attractive, good, decent, wealthy guy would have a serious romantic interest in her... or... she might be intimidated by him, thinking she won't "fit in" in his social circles and his lifestyle.
ImNotOliver
12-30-2010, 03:17 PM
Jack - If I posted the details of my relationship(s), I'd be called a liar and much worse, lol.
Boy is that ever something that I can relate to!
Which brings us to the 'bad boys'. ….And the kind of women who go for these guys tend to be even more impressed if the guys are seen with other women hanging all over them--the 'groupie effect'.
Trust me, the groupie effect is a force to be reckoned with…
This, to me, is like one of those PUA misconceptions. In reality it isn’t that women flock to (ie the ‘groupie effect’) a guy because other women do, but rather that because that guy has qualities that attract multiple women to him. The groupie effect works just by walking in the door, by the way the guy makes an appearance, the way he moves, the image he projects… It tends to be more intense for a particular woman if he walks in alone, in control, without the need of an entourage or props, especially when his attention is happily directed her way.
Nonetheless, if there is a guy in a strip club and strippers are swarming around him you can be assured that he is either tipping generously or laying down little white lines.
…I'm thinking that the way this is done - i.e., picking up a dancer without paying for lap dances - is something like this: …
This guy is legit - he's not there to pickup dancers, but it may just happen. The PUAs try to imitate this guy…
Possibly. Years ago a stripper directed me to certain strip club where she worked Friday nights; told me that it was like Cheers, where everyone knows your name. There is a vibrant social setting there and also pool tables and video poker machines. So it’s rather easy to ignore the strippers, especially the ones that I’m not too fond of/attracted to.
Even though I watch my friend (the stripper who directed me there) dance and tip her, and sometimes one of the other girls, mostly I’m there catching up on the gossip at the bar. It’s at the bar where I talk with strippers and others.
More than once a guy has approached me, wanting to know my secret; having seen the interaction between my friend (the stripper) and myself, apparently thinking that what was happening was other than just part of her stripper act; a game between old friends.
It’s like with my girlfriend. We’ll meet up somewhere and immediately act as if we’ve just met. To an observer, it appears as if I’ve just walked up and swept her off her feet. All the world is a stage.
But believe me I have seen a whole hell of a lot of dancers who have gone for the non-spending deal/musician/bad boy types in a major way--that's the only guys some of these women will date.
You ever notice that most women are most attracted to guys that fit the image that they want for themselves. That is to say that if a woman thinks that her image/life would be to her liking if she were with a certain guy, or a type of guy then she will more likely to be attracted to that guy or type of guy.
Turns out, I believe, that musician/artist/bad boy types are the male versions of the girls that become strippers. They tend to indulge in simular degenerative self defeating activities that only exasperate their mental/emotional angst and instability.
Kellydancer
12-30-2010, 03:36 PM
^ That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case.
Perhaps the dancer's low self-esteem also works against a dancer-custie relationship - for example: a "nice" and successful wealthy young guy who is perfect BF/husband material asks a low self-esteem dancer out on a date. She would love to date this guy, but, due to her low self-esteem, she thinks he only want her for sex, so she turns him down. She doesn't think an attractive, good, decent, wealthy guy would have a serious romantic interest in her... or... she might be intimidated by him, thinking she won't "fit in" in his social circles and his lifestyle.
Then of course she goes back to another jerk because she feels she deserves nothing better. I don't get it. However, the dancers I've seen who had a long career had more self esteem.
Jessie_tinydancer
12-30-2010, 05:55 PM
All kidding aside for a second, the sad and ironic fact is that many dancers (SW dancers excluded) are dating or married to (or separated from) a-hole bums.
When dancers learn that I'm a lawyer (I only mention it because they ask what I do for a living), 65% of the time, they will ask me legal questions about child custody, divorce and domestic abuse. One dancer recently pulled out her cell phone to show me pictures of herself after her BF assaulted her - it was very sad. She wanted to know what she should do. I referred her to the district attorney's office (I almost offered to take her there myself, but I decided not to, because it didn't seem appropriate).
OMG seriously?? I must be seriously sheltered in some ways. I would think that most girls would hear "lawyer" and start ordering premium vodka and french. Sad. So the alternative route to dating a stripper is:
Step 1: find the stripper with the least self worth
Step 2: Tell her you play xbox 24/7, have bongs for breakfast and have never opened a bank account.
Step 3: Be marginally more attractive then her and make sure she knows it.
Between this and the original formula every guy is sure to win.
Almost Jaded
12-30-2010, 07:34 PM
Sadly, the first post you made like that Jessie came off as stereotyping and funny, while kinda true, and that one above comes off as - well - true... The first one might get them interested and get them OTC club, but they'll get bored of you and never get serious. The second one - she met in a bar, and dated for the next 3 fucking years. LMAO - yes, horrid stereotyping. But I'm with Jack here - I know a LOT of dancers. A LOT. And that scenario is, sadly, far more common.
Jack - I'm not going to get into it. Actresses/persons of note, not so much. Models - several. Quantity - yes. Quality - yes. Quantity AND quality - there's the dividing line, and I tend to keep things on the DL, especially on these boards. Otherwise, Id sound like that new guy up there.
Oliver - you actually kinda know what you're talking about. And you might even be legit and a good guy. Joining this board and talking like that in one of your first 4 posts - not going to go over well. Just sayin.
Hopper
12-31-2010, 12:24 AM
Not sure what you mean... are you talking about quantity or "quality"? I'd be impressed if you've dated/screwed famous models, actresses, pop stars, celebrities, etc.
One has little to do with the other as far as I can see.
Hopper
12-31-2010, 12:41 AM
^ I never wanted to date a stripper just because she is a stripper. I like striippers for what they are (i.e. what Jack called an "archetype"). But I have liked individual strippers only because of how attractive they actually were. I would like those girls if they were not strippers. However, they no doubt turned me on more because they were naked/wearing sexy costumes, dancing and flirting (as part of the hustle and the LDs) etc. But that is still different to me liking them just because they are strippers. If a non-stripper did the same thing IRL it would have a similar effect on me.
Exactly, any hot girl you date can put on a strip-tease show for you and it would be just as exciting/fun as dating a stripper... In fact, it would be a lot better, because - from what I've read here on SW - most dancers DO NOT give their BF strip-tease shows and lap dances! (For many reasons, like - she's been doing it all night and is tired, it feels like work to her, it makes her feel like her SO is a custie, it reminds them both of what she does with other guys at work, etc.)
Erotic dances have an immense charming/enthralling power on the male brain. Its like, when Indians charm snakes with flutes.
In the Bible, there is the famous story of King Herod who was so captivated, enthralled and charmed by his step-daughter's erotic dancing, that he promised to give her anything she desired, up to half of his kingdom! (And she didn't even give give him a lap dance!) She asked for the head of John the Baptist on a platter. Although Herod was appalled by the request, and had denied the same request to his wife countless times, he reluctantly agreed and had John executed in the prison.
Thus, the mind-controlling jedi powers of the female exotic dancer on the male brain is verified in the Bible, thousands of years before the first Vegas stripclub opened.
The good news is that you don't have to date/marry an exotic dancer to be charmed by erotic dancing. Any hot woman can peform the magical dance and have the same desired opium-like rapture effect on your brain.
I didn't mean "if a girl gave me a lapdance IRL", just if a girl was naked or wearing sexy clothes, dancing, flirting with me or all of the above IRL.
Hopper
12-31-2010, 12:48 AM
Ironic that strippers will only date customers in those rare cases where she thinks you are a stand-out guy but the kind many of them do date are bottom rung - even abusing them. I'd expect strippers with low self esteem (which is what others here who know strippers say many of them have) would date lots of customers. If nothing else because they might be better than their current BF.
jack0177057
12-31-2010, 01:49 AM
^ Just to be clear, I said about 65% ask me these types of question (indicating bad relationships)... Its not fair to generalize and say all dancers are in bad relationships. Most dancers here on SW that are married or in LTRs appear to be in good solid relationships.
Bottom line - Dancers know the custies that ask them out are only interested in sex. You have a hard-on from the lapdance and you don't know anything about her as a real person, so what else could you be after?
SW does offer the opportunity to get to know dancers as real persons and to really appreciate them for who they are. I've got a lot of respect for most of the ladies here, even though I like to argue with them and get flamed every once in a while. I've gotten to know a few dancers well.
If I wasn't already in a relationship, I'm sure I'd be dating one of these lovely ladies... Maybe the one that chats with me about relationship issues and e-mailed me all those beautiful sexy pics. ;) (Not you ______, I know you're happily married, I'm talking about someone else. - private joke.)... And Kellydancer... she's a fantastic lady and we have a lot in common,... if I wasn't dating anyone, I'd definitely ask her out - except she'd turn me down because of my past. :'(
Hopper
12-31-2010, 02:46 AM
^ Just to be clear, I said about 65% ask me these types of question (indicating bad relationships)... Its not fair to generalize and say all dancers are in bad relationships. Most dancers here on SW that are married or in LTRs appear to be in good solid relationships.
It was clear to me.
Bottom line - Dancers know the custies that ask them out are only interested in sex. You have a hard-on from the lapdance and you don't know anything about her as a real person, so what else could you be after?
Not always. Some strippers I have had LDs from I have liked on a deeper level than that, i.e. I liked them enough to want to date them. I might know as much about a stripper after a LD as I knew about many girls I asked out IRL before I asked them out. We are talking about asking for their phone numbers for a date here, not proposing. Dates are for finding out more about the real person. The difference with a stripper is that she is assuming a manner or a persona tailored to making me spend, so she is hiding some of her real self, but there is still a lot I can tell about a girl regardless of how she acts (she can't hide all of herself) and a similar thing can be true of first meeting a girl IRL.
Djoser
12-31-2010, 04:08 AM
This, to me, is like one of those PUA misconceptions. In reality it isn’t that women flock to (ie the ‘groupie effect’) a guy because other women do, but rather that because that guy has qualities that attract multiple women to him. The groupie effect works just by walking in the door, by the way the guy makes an appearance, the way he moves, the image he projects… It tends to be more intense for a particular woman if he walks in alone, in control, without the need of an entourage or props, especially when his attention is happily directed her way.
It's not a misconception at all.
It's something I have observed time and time again, in action, in regular clubs, in stripclubs, at parties, you name it, watching what kinds of guys are getting the attention. And I've had it happen to me many times, in clubs or situations in which I had previously been largely ignored. It works best with stupid women, though. This is extremely common in Daytona, for instance. I tend to like smart ones so I've never deliberately tried to use this trick, but without question it will work with a whole hell of a lot of women. Obviously the women of SW tend to be exceptional.
I will never forget going into a club I had been working for about 8 months with 5-6 SW girls during a SW fest, here in Key West. Dancers that treated me like just another asshole barback or whatever, and who wouldn't even give me a hug goodnight (not that I was trying to) were coming up, sitting on my lap, rubbing all over me, etc.
I immediately started getting tipped way better--something I have noticed always happens after I go to any club I work in with a good-looking date, or better still with a couple or three girls. Dancers tend to tip a lot better if they think you are attractive, I figured that out within a couple months of starting in the business.
One of them, who never paid me the slightest attention, and who had blown me off totally and obviously, when I asked her a simple work-related question a week earlier, came up and said she was really jealous, which one was my girlfriend, etc., etc. Very, very insistent.
And she's been even more flirtatious, on a permanent basis, since I showed up with two other very attractive out-of-town dancers about a year later, after I left that club for this one. That's just one example. I cannot count the times I have had this sort of thing happen. Stupid women love guys with a 'rep'.
I would agree that a lot of intelligent, independent women actually prefer a guy without the entourage, though. However in most clubs I have worked in, they tend to be rare. Maybe I need to get out of Florida lol! But from what I've seen of the party scene all over the country, the same dynamics tend to apply.
Almost Jaded
12-31-2010, 07:24 AM
^Hate to agree, but kinda have to.
Guys, it's not a mystery, and it's not limited in any way to SC's or dancers. Ever notice that when you're taken you have waaaaaaayy more opportunities for casual encounters, and more women showing you more attention? Jeez, the 2nd most attention I ever got was the 5 years I was married and wore a ring. After we broke up - 3x harder to get a DATE, much less random offers for casual sex (I was very faithful when I was married, but DAMN it would've been easy not to be, lol).
And now - again, not going into it - but seriously, I could fuck a different woman just about every night if I went out with the intention of doing so every night. I think they're curious - if she/they are so into him, there must be something there... Or so I suspect. If it's something else I have NO idea what it is, lol.
Oddly, I disagree with DJoser on one thing. The "quality" of the women showing interest in a guy with an entourage varies according to many factors. I have not found that it's largely smarter or dumber or more or less attractive women that this "effect" occurs with. One of the smartest and arguably the most beautiful woman I have ever known went for me while I was married. Some of the most amazing women I currently know showed far more interest when I started getting that "rep" as DJ puts it. Others - of both the more and less intelligent variety - showed less. Overall it definately went up though.
rickdugan
12-31-2010, 07:45 AM
You know, this is another one of those threads where reality and theory deviate to a degree. In any place where boys and girls meet there will be the chance of romances blooming. Now of course we know that a guy is a fool, and will likely be on the short road to going broke, if he goes into a club chasing after this sort of thing, but we also know that sometimes genuine sparks do fly, even in a strip club.
Now not only am I married now but also old enough that this would not really be in the cards anymore, but when I was in my early thirties a couple of opportunities opened up with dancers that were only 5-7 years younger than I. Back then I was not too hard on the eyes (if I do say so myself) and worked as a financial exec. with a big title and six figure income. I also used to visit (much less frequently back then) local clubs with a fair number of single moms struggling to make ends meet. I don't think I need to draw a diagram.
Now back then I also never bought dances or, in my ignorance, even tipped for time. In hindsight, I have to agree with Djoser that this probably helped my cause. In fact, one of the girls that I mentioned actually said to me "you really don't want me to do this for you, do you?" when I tipped her at the stage AFTER she had agreed to a date.
In the end I backed out of the planned dates. In all honesty, I just couldn't wrap my arms around dating a single mom who worked as a stripper. Now this was my issue and nothing against the girls who did what they had to do to feed their children, but it was just something that was too alien for me.
bem401
12-31-2010, 07:50 AM
I agree but I haven't read anything in this thread from any of the male posters indicating that they would expect a dancer to act like a dancer when they are civvie dating her. I also haven't read anything to indicate that any of these guys see the lady involved as a dancer first and a woman second. Of course it's possible but it's pure speculation.
Again, you misinterpret things I post. I merely said the dancer has to be sure that is not what the guy is expecting. They don't think particularly highly of the customers in general and it's going to take varying amounts of time, depending on the girl, for them to become comfortable enough to spend time with one away from work.
I think any guy who has spent enough time with a dancer to potentially have her spend her free time with him away from the club wouldn't need to ask the question.
I don't really see the issue with civvie dating a dancer that you have spent money on in the past. I've done it several times over the last couple years and it hasn't been a problem...In fact, it's been a f'n blast! Anyone with reasonable intelligence and a bit of experience with dancers understands that they are doing a job and that job ends when they put their street cloths on and leave the club. If a dancer understands that and the man involved understands that I really don't see the problem. Now, would I go into the club and spend money on a dancer that I was actively dating? No, but that's a different story.
Civvie dating a dancer you used to spend on is absolutely not an issue but that's the key... "used to spend on". In other words, you are not a current customer. If you are a current customer, I'm sure the girl realizes she is at least jeopardizing that regular stipend she gets spending time with a customer in the club when she agrees to spend time with him "off the clock". If you are a former customer, she is not risking any income at all.
Casual Observer
12-31-2010, 10:39 AM
This is the thing that absolutely kills me! Guys who walk in to a strip club and play the "I don't do dances, can I have your number and I will take you out" card. I've never met a dancer, including the ones I know who have dated customers, that this worked on.
Agreed; it's a generally stupid strategy that's insulting to the dancer and shows a lack of respect for what she does.
That said, specifically going to clubs with the intention of picking up a relationship is a fool's errand. When I hit the club, I'm not looking for a girlfriend, just a good-time girl.
Kellydancer
12-31-2010, 01:19 PM
^ Just to be clear, I said about 65% ask me these types of question (indicating bad relationships)... Its not fair to generalize and say all dancers are in bad relationships. Most dancers here on SW that are married or in LTRs appear to be in good solid relationships.
Bottom line - Dancers know the custies that ask them out are only interested in sex. You have a hard-on from the lapdance and you don't know anything about her as a real person, so what else could you be after?
SW does offer the opportunity to get to know dancers as real persons and to really appreciate them for who they are. I've got a lot of respect for most of the ladies here, even though I like to argue with them and get flamed every once in a while. I've gotten to know a few dancers well.
If I wasn't already in a relationship, I'm sure I'd be dating one of these lovely ladies... Maybe the one that chats with me about relationship issues and e-mailed me all those beautiful sexy pics. ;) (Not you ______, I know you're happily married, I'm talking about someone else. - private joke.)... And Kellydancer... she's a fantastic lady and we have a lot in common,... if I wasn't dating anyone, I'd definitely ask her out - except she'd turn me down because of my past. :'(
Nah, I think I'd make an exception for you. You are so sweet. ;)
Seriously, though I do think most women here seem to have good relationships but I think part of it is because most here seem to have their heads screwed on tight. I know some often think I seem to have some relationship issues, but they are much different than they really are in real life. The bad guys I dated for mostly guys who pretended to be nice, then when I got to know them they turned nasty. In most cases I dumped them right away. The one case where I put up with it was a situation where I moved in with the guy, and I didn't want to admit to my parents I made a mistake. Even the guy I want to be with isn't as terrible as it sounds. He's got issues and he told me this. He needs time to get his act together and since I'm trying to deal with other issues he's on the back burner. However, sometimes the stress of other things makes it worse and I shouldn't let it. In time if he doesn't come around I will move on, but I also think he will.
Having said that, yes I think many women get into dancing who do have destructive personalities and it makes them worse. I think some dancers do enjoy having terrible boyfriends. I know for myself I could never tolerate a man who cheated, beat women, or was lazy.
ImNotOliver
12-31-2010, 02:48 PM
It's not a misconception at all….
Perhaps we define groupie differently. Does having extra women along increase your chances of or rate of intimate encounters? Or does the growing crowd ensure that nothing goes too far? The girls who are the props, are they as enamored with you as you’d like the other girls to be of you? Just saying.
This reminds me of a guy who I used to see around. He was a short, overweight, middle aged, balding Italian who wore chains of gold around his neck. Every time I’ve ever seen him he has had one to four young pretty women in tow, all of who towered above him, especially so when they were in heels. Whenever he’d come around women would flock to him but they weren’t falling for him. My gf would tell me that he was good for a drink or two and maybe a twenty.
One day I went into my gf’s club and he was there talking with four or five dancers around him seemingly hunging on his every word. Among the dancers was my gf. As I approached the group I could hear him saying something about never buying underwear; that his girlfriends had always bought them for him. The sudden thoughts of some of the gaudy underwear that I have received from women led me almost instinctively to blurt out, “I always buy my own underwear because I never know when I might have to pull my pants down in public.” In one fell swoop his audience evaporated as its attention was suddenly shifted to the possibility of me pulling my pants down. (Which I didn’t do, just teased to.)
My experience has never been the case of where having a girlfriend/wife has increased the rate of other women presenting sexual/romantic relationship opportunities. Quite the opposite. Being in a relationship really does put a lot of dampers on one’s social activities. When you’re single it is pretty easy to flirt with every woman that strikes your fancy. With a girlfriend in tow, it’s not a good idea. But then being a good boyfriend and having a loyal girlfriend who brags that fact does, I suppose, inspire other women to wish that they were in her shoes. There are always women who will say, “if only you didn’t have a girlfriend…” But it doesn’t really mean anything substantial.
As to groupies, I define them as those women, and those with crushes, as those who pursue a man based almost solely upon his image. Which is to say they tend to be a bit like those guys who go to strip clubs and fall for a stripper based solely upon what he sees as she dances; knowing nothing else substantial about her. Just like the guy lusting after a stripper, it’s about the groupie’s fantasy, not yours. I’ve never meet a woman who dreamed of being part of a harem. The man of their dreams tends to come alone, his attention centered on her.
Almost Jaded
12-31-2010, 04:12 PM
About that last bit -
Firstly, this "harem" image is a negative one and not right.
Secondly - you'd be surprised, lol. When a guy can divide his attention effectively and each of several get more attention then they have previously from asshole previous "dedicated" bf's, they find group support to be a positive relationship dynamic.
And I never said relationships came easier when you're taken, just casual encounters. Though other relationships can and do present themselves as well; I had several of those "if only you weren't taken" things turn into near stalkers.
These days that's not an issue. :)
There is a girl or two out there with stories about each of us. There are a couple of women in the world I could refer you too who would tell you I'm the biggest asshole they ever dated (although there would be no claims of taking their money or stuff or of abuse). Some women go into a relationship to change a guy, and don't take it well when they can't or when the changes don't stick. In my experience, these are the girls who spread BS about a guy after a breakup - even if they were the one that caused or instigated it. Go figure.
Djoser
01-01-2011, 01:56 AM
This reminds me of a guy who I used to see around. He was a short, overweight, middle aged, balding Italian who wore chains of gold around his neck. Every time I’ve ever seen him he has had one to four young pretty women in tow, all of who towered above him, especially so when they were in heels. Whenever he’d come around women would flock to him but they weren’t falling for him.
I assure you, I am nothing whatsoever like any short, fat Italians with gold chains. Once in very great while I will meet a woman who is an inch or two taller--but they are wearing 8" heels. :D
“I always buy my own underwear because I never know when I might have to pull my pants down in public.” In one fell swoop his audience evaporated as its attention was suddenly shifted to the possibility of me pulling my pants down. (Which I didn’t do, just teased to.)
That wouldn't have worked in any of the situations I was describing, trust me. No need to speculate what the reaction of the SW dancers would have been to that one.
As to groupies, I define them as those women, and those with crushes, as those who pursue a man based almost solely upon his image.
Now you're getting the idea.
I’ve never meet a woman who dreamed of being part of a harem. The man of their dreams tends to come alone, his attention centered on her.
I've met hundreds, seen thousands. Though I don't usually go for that type at all. Which brings us back around to this:
The girls who are the props, are they as enamored with you as you’d like the other girls to be of you?
They are not props, they are women who like hanging out with me, possibly because I no longer give a flying fuck about trying to pick up women or acquire a harem. But I'd be a blind fool not to notice the effect. Not saying your experience hasn't been different. Just saying.
;D
But we are threadjacking here, I wouldn't want to offend my esteemed colleague Kellydancer...
yoda57us
01-01-2011, 08:25 AM
Again, you misinterpret things I post. I merely said the dancer has to be sure that is not what the guy is expecting.
LOL, I didn't misinterpret anything BEM, I simply commented on it. I'm allowed to do that here.
Civvie dating a dancer you used to spend on is absolutely not an issue but that's the key... "used to spend on".
Different strokes for different folks BEM. I think it's become pretty clear over time that, based on our posts here, you and your friends may see things a bit differently than I do. I have no issue with taking a dancer to dinner if she is so inclined and then subsequently visiting her at her club and spending money on her. In fact, and I know you're going to find this shocking, we may actually talk about what restaurant we are going to try next while she is naked on my lap! Sometimes people just get together to have some fun BEM. As I've said before two intelligent people can usually work out the boundaries on their own.
bem401
01-01-2011, 09:28 AM
Different strokes for different folks BEM. I think it's become pretty clear over time that, based on our posts here, you and your friends may see things a bit differently than I do. I have no issue with taking a dancer to dinner if she is so inclined and then subsequently visiting her at her club and spending money on her. In fact, and I know you're going to find this shocking, we may actually talk about what restaurant we are going to try next while she is naked on my lap! Sometimes people just get together to have some fun BEM. As I've said before two intelligent people can usually work out the boundaries on their own.
IMO, meeting a dancer (or escort) for drinks and/or dinner before patronizing her is not actually "dating" her and the word "dating" is in the title of the thread. I have done this as well and wouldn't refer to it as a date nor would anyone (especially the girl) I know have considered it one. In my eyes, the civvie dating we were commenting on and the scenario you presented above are not one and the same. I suppose it does speak well of the customer however that the girl is willing to spend that time with the guy.
yoda57us
01-01-2011, 10:19 AM
IMO, meeting a dancer (or escort) for drinks and/or dinner before patronizing her is not actually "dating" her and the word "dating" is in the title of the thread.
I would agree with you BEM. But that's not what I'm talking about here.
KS_Stevia
01-02-2011, 11:26 AM
^ That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case.
Perhaps the dancer's low self-esteem also works against a dancer-custie relationship - for example: a "nice" and successful wealthy young guy who is perfect BF/husband material asks a low self-esteem dancer out on a date. She would love to date this guy, but, due to her low self-esteem, she thinks he only want her for sex, so she turns him down. She doesn't think an attractive, good, decent, wealthy guy would have a serious romantic interest in her... or... she might be intimidated by him, thinking she won't "fit in" in his social circles and his lifestyle.
BECAUSE SELF ESTEEM DOESN'T COME FROM HORNY MEN WORSHIPPING YOUR BODY SO THEY CAN INSERT THEIR PENIS IN YOUR HOLES. THESE MEN AREN'T WORSHIPPING OR RESPECTING WOMEN, THEY ARE WORSHIPPING THEIR OWN FANTASY.
SELF-ESTEEM MUST COME FROM THE INSIDE, FROM THINKING THAT YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON, WORTHY OF LOVE. BEING WORTHY OF MONEY BECAUSE YOU FLASH YOUR TITS AND PUSSY TO STRANGERS MEANS NOTHING. AND STRIPPERS KNOW THIS BECAUSE THE COMPLIMENTS THEY GET ARENT GENUINE. THE PERSON GETTING COMPLIMENTED IS A FAKE STRIPPER PERSONA AND THE CUSTOMERS HAVE AN AGENDA.
YES I AM TYPING IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF.
Happy New year everyone. Sorry, I'm locked up in my bathroom right now avoiding my own abusive boyfriend. :(
Almost Jaded
01-02-2011, 06:16 PM
LEAVE HIS ASS!
Some girls are able to find a self esteem boost in it all, MM certainly does. But KS is right for the most part - it takes a certain type to enjoy and/or find gratification or positivity anywhere in the BS that is stripping.
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 09:14 AM
BECAUSE SELF ESTEEM DOESN'T COME FROM HORNY MEN WORSHIPPING YOUR BODY SO THEY CAN INSERT THEIR PENIS IN YOUR HOLES. THESE MEN AREN'T WORSHIPPING OR RESPECTING WOMEN, THEY ARE WORSHIPPING THEIR OWN FANTASY.
SELF-ESTEEM MUST COME FROM THE INSIDE, FROM THINKING THAT YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON, WORTHY OF LOVE. BEING WORTHY OF MONEY BECAUSE YOU FLASH YOUR TITS AND PUSSY TO STRANGERS MEANS NOTHING. AND STRIPPERS KNOW THIS BECAUSE THE COMPLIMENTS THEY GET ARENT GENUINE. THE PERSON GETTING COMPLIMENTED IS A FAKE STRIPPER PERSONA AND THE CUSTOMERS HAVE AN AGENDA.
YES I AM TYPING IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF.
Happy New year everyone. Sorry, I'm locked up in my bathroom right now avoiding my own abusive boyfriend. :(
^ Very well stated, and I appreciate your answer. I do understand where you are coming from... What are you doing with an abusive boyfriend? Get rid of this loser!
Your reply is well taken... However, on the other hand, women do base a large part of their self-esteem on their sex appeal. A HUGE part of the cosmetic, shoe and fashion industries are based on women looking stunningly SEXY and "turning heads"... even at the cost of extreme inconvenience and discomfort (e.g., torturous shoes)... Red lipstick, stilleto heels, mini dress or mini skirt, tight-fitting clothes, push-up bras, bikinis, etc... these things were designed and are used for one purpose only - to optimize a woman's sex appeal - which, in turn, generates a lot of male sexual attraction, which in turn boost her ego and her self-esteem (the more horny guys that notice her,... and the more of them she brutally rejects,... the more her ego and self-esteem grow).
Of course, extremes of anything (without a balancing force) are always bad and destructive. A female nobel laureate scientist might get sick and tired of the "you are so brilliant" compliment from the men she dates. She want a guys to tell her, "Gawd, you're fucking hot"... The dancer is sick of being told she is "fucking hot" by every PL that she talks to, so she wants to be told she is brilliant, worthy of love, etc.
yoda57us
01-03-2011, 09:23 AM
^So you read KS's response but you didn't really understand a word of it....
Hopper
01-03-2011, 09:43 AM
Jack had a good point. Both times. Women do invest a lot of their self-worth in their appearance, or more perhaps accurately their sexual attractiveness, which is not entirely to do with purely physical appearance alone. KS_Stevia has a point also, but I think she is forgetting that even in a SC women are not necessarily entirely judged by their "tits and pussy". The stripper persona and the fantasy are not totally seperate from the stripper as a "person". Customers don't just see the fake facade. A stripper can appeal as much on personal charm as her body. In fact, I don't believe physical appeal and personal appeal are separate things - they intertwine. I judge strippers' attractiveness and ability as strippers very much on the type of person they are, even though I am basically interested in them as sex objects. And even that is not always true.
The same applies to men - a lot of their self-worth is invested in things which make them attractive to women, and a lot of that is to do with the type of person they are. I don't understand why KS_Stevia is looking at them as two separate things, even in a SC. How much a stripper appeals to customers depends a lot on her personal qualities, and even her physical attractiveness depends partly on that. Body and mind are not separate.
Sex objects or not, I see right through the fantasy and I do respect strippers as people.
yoda57us
01-03-2011, 10:36 AM
Fascinating. Two men trying to explain how a woman should feel about herself...
bem401
01-03-2011, 12:08 PM
Fascinating. Two men trying to explain how a woman should feel about herself...
Agreed. More accurately though, two customers trying to explain how a dancer should feel about herself. That's even more fascinating.
KS's post is also very much in line with a dancer friend's description of working in a club as "compromising her dignity". Actually, it is damn close to verbatim.
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 12:52 PM
^ Good grief... I'm not telling KS_Stevia how to feel about herself... She is a unique individual and I hear where she's coming from and the pain she's feeling... Its well articulate in her post. I'm not trying to change her mind about how she should feel, for gawd's sake.
I was merely pointing out the obvious about most women in society, who want to be validated as sexually appealling and go through great efforts to do so. If I'm wrong about this, somebody needs to go and tell the CEO of Victoria Secrets that women don't want to be regarded as sexy.
Go to any bar (even your most upscale classy establishment) - stilletos, red lipstick, tight-fitting tiny black dresses, push-up bras, low neck-line, leg slits, etc. I never see women waving their college degrees or academic awards at a bar. The initial attraction tends to be mostly physical/sexual, and then, the conversation reveals additional positive qualities, such as intelligence, creativity, humor, education, professional success, etc.
Of course, dancers are in a unique situation - they experience excessive, rude and very intrusive sexual attention from PLs, so to them, sexual attention may become unflattering (other than the attention of their SO).
Almost Jaded
01-03-2011, 12:57 PM
Again - depends on the girl. MM gets pissy with me if she doesn't feel "properly objectified" - quotes there for a reason - in our relationship; if I go too long without treating her like a sex object she gets annoyed. Other women would leave your ass for treating them the way MM likes even once, lmao. :shrug:
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 01:19 PM
^ The only thing worst than being treated as a sex object, is not being treated as a sex object.
- Actual quote from a woman, but I forgot who said it.
Scratch most feminists and underneath there is a woman who longs to be a sex object. The difference is that is not all she wants to be. ~Betty Rollin
yoda57us
01-03-2011, 02:17 PM
You're trying to hard Jack. Everything you are posting here is your opinion of how a woman should feel about herself. The simple fact is that women who dance, and not just KS, don't see it the way you think they should. I know, it sucks when reality gets in the way of your fantasy. Seriously, no one expects you, me, or any other male, to understand how these women actually feel about what they are doing. Showing some empathy, rather than telling them how good it is for their ego to be naked in a room full of strangers, would seem to be a better approach.
But maybe that's just me...
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 04:02 PM
^ Now you're telling me how I should think - and putting thought into my head that are not mine.
I already agreed that dancers are in a unique situation and that KS-Stevia's feelings on this matter make perfect sense.
Clearly you're trying so hard to kiss dancer ass, that you are not reading my posts carefully.
bem401
01-03-2011, 04:55 PM
^ Now you're telling me how I should think - and putting thought into my head that are not mine.
I already agreed that dancers are in a unique situation and that KS-Stevia's feelings on this matter make perfect sense.
Clearly you're trying so hard to kiss dancer ass, that you are not reading my posts carefully.
Actually, he's telling you that you are not in a position to tell them how to think.
yoda57us
01-03-2011, 05:12 PM
^ Now you're telling me how I should think - and putting thought into my head that are not mine.
Not guilty on both counts Jack...
I am expressing an opinion that happens to disagree with yours. I can't force you to think anything that you don't want to think...nor do I care to. As far as putting thoughts into your head how could I possibly do that? Your words are here for all to see. I am free to draw my own conclusions from them and comment just as you appear to have drawn your own conclusions of my posts.
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 05:54 PM
I am expressing an opinion that happens to disagree with yours. I can't force you to think anything that you don't want to think...nor do I care to. As far as putting thoughts into your head how could I possibly do that? Your words are here for all to see. I am free to draw my own conclusions from them and comment just as you appear to have drawn your own conclusions of my posts.
Accusing another guy here on SW of being insensitive or "not getting" what a dancer says, specially on a sensitive topic, is a game like the cockblocking bullshit that one guy tries to do to another at a bar or club. You kiss ass, while you try to sink me. When I call you on it, your defense is that you "draw your own conclusions" from my posts. Its just an opinion, right, you don't have to back it up...
Actually, he's telling you that you are not in a position to tell them how to think.
Please quote for me from my posts where I am telling KS_Stevia how to think. I must have missed reading something in my own posts.
Yoda - Help your buddy out.
yoda57us
01-03-2011, 06:08 PM
Please quote for me from my posts where I am telling KS_Stevia how to think. I must have missed reading something in my own posts.
Yoda - Help your buddy out.
Sorry Jack it just doesn't work that way. This isn't a courtroom and I have no burden of proof, only the right to my opinion. You could re-read your posts from now until the next millennium and I can guarantee that you will never find what I did. We simply don't see it the same way.
rickdugan
01-03-2011, 06:18 PM
Jack, IMO you really are trying to hard. I also believe that your theory is vastly oversimplistic.
KS talked about what she believed to be her source of self-esteem and you responded with an essay on what you believe is a major driver of self-esteem for most women. However, as her belief conflicted with your broad theory, you attempted to reconcile the differences by theorizing that strippers are not normal because their sex appeal is continously affirmed by guys in the clubs.
You have never known sexy women with self-esteem issues? I have, to a point where they were self-destructive despite their attractiveness. Heck, I'd even go as far to say that some women base very little of their feelings of self worth on how many guys want to sleep with them. From my limited perspective, how women view their own worth seems to be very complicated, probably too much so for a simple animal like me, but IMHO you are placing far too much weight on one piece of the total emotional puzzle.
bem401
01-03-2011, 06:22 PM
Please quote for me from my posts where I am telling KS_Stevia how to think. I must have missed reading something in my own posts.
Yoda - Help your buddy out.
I pretty much just clarified and elaborated on yoda's posts and never tied what you were saying to KS.
In posts 54 and 78, you pontificated on how women and/or dancers ought or ought not feel about the lustful attention they get from men. Nothing is universal in such matters but any woman or dancer couldn't care less how you, I, yoda , or any other guy think they should be reacting to it
Elvia
01-03-2011, 06:27 PM
Jack had a good point. Both times. Women do invest a lot of their self-worth in their appearance, or more perhaps accurately their sexual attractiveness, which is not entirely to do with purely physical appearance alone. KS_Stevia has a point also, but I think she is forgetting that even in a SC women are not necessarily entirely judged by their "tits and pussy". The stripper persona and the fantasy are not totally seperate from the stripper as a "person". Customers don't just see the fake facade. A stripper can appeal as much on personal charm as her body. In fact, I don't believe physical appeal and personal appeal are separate things - they intertwine. I judge strippers' attractiveness and ability as strippers very much on the type of person they are, even though I am basically interested in them as sex objects. And even that is not always true.
The same applies to men - a lot of their self-worth is invested in things which make them attractive to women, and a lot of that is to do with the type of person they are. I don't understand why KS_Stevia is looking at them as two separate things, even in a SC. How much a stripper appeals to customers depends a lot on her personal qualities, and even her physical attractiveness depends partly on that. Body and mind are not separate.
Sex objects or not, I see right through the fantasy and I do respect strippers as people.
And what makes you so sure you see through the fantasy? Yes, the job is about more than my body, as evidenced by the unfortunate fact that I need to spend so much time talking to men at work, heh. But it's still not the real me they're getting to know. Even if a guy thinks he's "getting to know" me in the club, he's not. Because I'm not sharing anything real about my life. By which I mean I'm 1) not revealing any depth. I'm not going to express my intimate thoughts and feelings to a stranger I see in a bar as I would with my friends, families, partners, people I have genuine relationships with, and 2) I'm even lying about the superficial stuff, because I don't want strangers knowing where I really work for a day job, where I really go to school, what I'm studying, etc. Even if a guy is crazy about me and thinks I'm the greatest thing ever, it's not the real Elvia he's saying that about. He's talking about an Elvia that's 5 years younger, has a sexy day job that plays into cliched fantasies, loves socializing and partying, etc. He'd never even met the Elvia that is pushing 30, sits around playing on the internet all day, cries in the dressing room, and spends every free night sitting on the couch in pajama pants.
jack0177057
01-03-2011, 06:41 PM
I pretty much just clarified and elaborated on yoda's posts and never tied what you were saying to KS.
In posts 54 and 78, you pontificated on how women and/or dancers ought or ought not feel about the lustful attention they get from men. Nothing is universal in such matters but any woman or dancer couldn't care less how you, I, yoda , or any other guy think they should be reacting to it
Nice try. Here is what I said -
"That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case."
^ This was a question, first of all, and I was just saying what I expect to be the result of male flattery in the SC, I was not "pontificating" on what should be the result.
Jack, IMO you really are trying to hard. I also believe that your theory is vastly oversimplistic.
Okay, I'm not telling anyone how to think; I am only theorizing here, using deduction and basic psychology and not first hand knowledge. (Be forewarned: I may be totally wrong and not have a fucking clue about what I'm talking about.)
I think the key lies in this quote:
Scratch most feminists and underneath there is a woman who longs to be a sex object. The difference is that is not all she wants to be. ~Betty Rollin
A dancer may resent being objectified, because she is ONLY treated as a sex object. (I.e., no other recognition, validation, concern, or interest is expressed by her customers.)
Most "normal" women strive to be "sexy", but they also have other validations and recognitions - i.e., awards, promotions at work, completion of a big project, etc.
Also, (as I said previously) dancers experience excessive, rude and very intrusive sexual attention from PLs. To most women, the price of being sexy, might involve putting up with a rude comment here and there from a PL, but they can shoot him down and walk away. Dancers, on the other hand, have to cater to them and tolerate the worst type of crude male sexual expression.
This is why, I think, to some dancers, sexual attention becomes a negative experience, rather than a positive one.
KS_Stevia
01-03-2011, 06:59 PM
^ Very well stated, and I appreciate your answer. I do understand where you are coming from... What are you doing with an abusive boyfriend? Get rid of this loser!
Your reply is well taken... However, on the other hand, women do base a large part of their self-esteem on their sex appeal. A HUGE part of the cosmetic, shoe and fashion industries are based on women looking stunningly SEXY and "turning heads"... even at the cost of extreme inconvenience and discomfort (e.g., torturous shoes)... Red lipstick, stilleto heels, mini dress or mini skirt, tight-fitting clothes, push-up bras, bikinis, etc... these things were designed and are used for one purpose only - to optimize a woman's sex appeal - which, in turn, generates a lot of male sexual attraction, which in turn boost her ego and her self-esteem (the more horny guys that notice her,... and the more of them she brutally rejects,... the more her ego and self-esteem grow).
Of course, extremes of anything (without a balancing force) are always bad and destructive. A female nobel laureate scientist might get sick and tired of the "you are so brilliant" compliment from the men she dates. She want a guys to tell her, "Gawd, you're fucking hot"... The dancer is sick of being told she is "fucking hot" by every PL that she talks to, so she wants to be told she is brilliant, worthy of love, etc.
^ Good grief... I'm not telling KS_Stevia how to feel about herself... She is a unique individual and I hear where she's coming from and the pain she's feeling... Its well articulate in her post. I'm not trying to change her mind about how she should feel, for gawd's sake.
I was merely pointing out the obvious about most women in society, who want to be validated as sexually appealling and go through great efforts to do so. If I'm wrong about this, somebody needs to go and tell the CEO of Victoria Secrets that women don't want to be regarded as sexy.
Go to any bar (even your most upscale classy establishment) - stilletos, red lipstick, tight-fitting tiny black dresses, push-up bras, low neck-line, leg slits, etc. I never see women waving their college degrees or academic awards at a bar. The initial attraction tends to be mostly physical/sexual, and then, the conversation reveals additional positive qualities, such as intelligence, creativity, humor, education, professional success, etc.
Of course, dancers are in a unique situation - they experience excessive, rude and very intrusive sexual attention from PLs, so to them, sexual attention may become unflattering (other than the attention of their SO).
I wasn't talking about strippers, I was talking about women. And I haven't forgotten a thing about how stripping related to my self-esteem.
Here's the thing JackL I am well aware of the validation I get from being considered sexy and sexually desirable: both as a stripper and as a current civilian. But....what occurs to our self-esteem when the inevitable, horrible "A" word occurs. Its something we can't stop....
AGING
At some point, no matter how much Vic Secret we buy, we are no longer going to be classified as generally sexually desirable by the average male. They are no longer going to give us compliments and accolades with the sly intention of getting in our pants. We all age. And whilst there is still beauty with age, and tons of anti-aging products and surgeries, the compliments and the knowledge that you are turning heads will dwindle.
How about two more things:
1. Losing your looks do to illness or an accident
2. Generally unattractive people in general
Do you think Janet Reno has low self-esteem?
All I'm saying...is that good looks and sexual attractiveness are fleeting. If a stripper or any civilian woman wants to prevent spending the second half of her life in an void of depression from feeling worthless...there had better be something she sees in herself besides her looks.
That is all I'm saying. Self-confidence can be largely based on looks for a long time. True self-esteem must come from something deeper than the superficial, or you will be dealing with a very miserable lady.
rickdugan
01-03-2011, 07:06 PM
Okay, I'm not telling anyone how to think; I am only theorizing here, using deduction and basic psychology and not first hand knowledge. (Be forewarned: I may be totally wrong and not have a fucking clue about what I'm talking about.)
You said it, not me. ;)
The problem is that you are trying to apply simpler male self-esteem components to female psychology. It just doesn't work. Hell, if the same things that make me happy were enough to keep my wife happy then I wouldn't have to work nearly so hard in this life. :D
Like I said, I am not claiming any great insight into the female mind, but in my limited experience self worth issues can be much more complicated for women than they are for guys.
KS_Stevia
01-03-2011, 07:09 PM
Sexiness and how it affects:
1. Self-Confidence: woman is hot and receives a lot of compliments and preferential treatment from males and such. She works out, takes time to do her makeup and hair, gets facials, maybe a bit of Botox, and wears clothing that flatters her. The positive reinforcement of her hard work boosts her self-confidence.
2. Woman values her own self-discipline and routine. She sees that her actions achieve desirable results that gets her the things she needs in life. They may be a little thing, a personal emotional "boost" from a male compliment. Or it may help her earn more as a stripper, or get her more invitiations to lucrative trade shows as a sales person. Her self- esteem is enhanced by the fact that she has isolated a cause:effect and has followed through on some actions that cause benefits in her life. Her self-esteem is boosted not because a bunch of dudes are trying to fuck her, but she has helped mold her own destiny by the self-awareness that working with "what god gave her" furthers her own agenda for success.
Now, as she ages, if she maintains the attitude of #2, she will know to keep up her attractiveness rituals as needed to stay ahead. And, when one day, they fail, she may well have the insight to change something else in order to keep getting what she needs out of her life and goals.
Wait, did any of the above make sense? I'm not drunk, just not sure I'm articulating well today....
Almost Jaded
01-03-2011, 07:16 PM
I bet Janet Reno stays out of SC's, or is one of those arms-crossed don't talk to anyone at this table you little whore types if she does, LMAO. One's self esteem can fluctuate according to circumstance; these are situations where overcompensating with what bolsters you on one side is a crutch for the other. For JR, it might be her accomplishment and position when surrounded by gorgeous young things. For me, it's certain social accomplishments and being surrounded by gorgeous young things when in the company of some of what were once my contemporaries, who kept on in academic and technical fields that I left, lol.
bem401
01-03-2011, 07:18 PM
Nice try. Here is what I said -
"That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
You obviously have a very superficial view of what its like to work in a club. Most of the girls I know personally (and I assume this applies to most of the rest) see the money made as the only positive of the job. It is the one and only reason they are there. Everything else they deal with ranges from meaningless to emotionally challenging. The fact that some customers try to be inoffensive and generous doesn't make them thrive on what they are doing any way other than financially.
KS_Stevia
01-03-2011, 07:21 PM
Being a gorgeous young thing is fleeting. Being surrounded by gorgeous young things is fleeting.
Whaa......?
Well, in the case of the latter. At some point you are alone or not around the gorgeous young thing. OR, your gorgeous young thing has grown older and is no longer GYT. What do you do? Stop loving her and trade her in for a new model GYT? Sure you can do that, its done all of the time. But what kind of person does that make a man? Shallow? Shitty? Insecure. This isn't about you at all A_Jaded...just a counterpoint.
I stand by my original assertion that looks and sex appeal make up a small component of self-esteem (But can be a huge component of self-confidence, IMO) :)