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jack0177057
01-03-2011, 08:31 PM
^ Its very helpful and educational when the guys finally shut up and the ladies get a chance to speak.

KS_Stevia - So, to become a better and more sensitive custie and BF, how should I compliment: (a) the next dancer I chat with, and (b) my GF (in her high 30s)?

yoda57us
01-03-2011, 09:09 PM
Accusing another guy here on SW of being insensitive or "not getting" what a dancer says, specially on a sensitive topic, is a game like the cockblocking bullshit that one guy tries to do to another at a bar or club. You kiss ass, while you try to sink me. When I call you on it, your defense is that you "draw your own conclusions" from my posts. Its just an opinion, right, you don't have to back it up...


Dude, seriously, this is an internet chat board, not a strip club. What exactly is it that I have to gain by disagreeing with you? I don't know what sort of "man code" you live by but count me out! Cock-blocking? On Line? That's some good stuff your smoking their!

Whether you like it or not the fact is I have a right to post my opinion of anything that anyone else posts here and I am not obligated to provide quotations or footnotes. I'm not submitting legal brief or an academic dissertation, I'm just disagreeing with you.

Kellydancer
01-04-2011, 12:14 AM
I wasn't talking about strippers, I was talking about women. And I haven't forgotten a thing about how stripping related to my self-esteem.

Here's the thing JackL I am well aware of the validation I get from being considered sexy and sexually desirable: both as a stripper and as a current civilian. But....what occurs to our self-esteem when the inevitable, horrible "A" word occurs. Its something we can't stop....

AGING

At some point, no matter how much Vic Secret we buy, we are no longer going to be classified as generally sexually desirable by the average male. They are no longer going to give us compliments and accolades with the sly intention of getting in our pants. We all age. And whilst there is still beauty with age, and tons of anti-aging products and surgeries, the compliments and the knowledge that you are turning heads will dwindle.

How about two more things:
1. Losing your looks do to illness or an accident
2. Generally unattractive people in general

Do you think Janet Reno has low self-esteem?

All I'm saying...is that good looks and sexual attractiveness are fleeting. If a stripper or any civilian woman wants to prevent spending the second half of her life in an void of depression from feeling worthless...there had better be something she sees in herself besides her looks.

That is all I'm saying. Self-confidence can be largely based on looks for a long time. True self-esteem must come from something deeper than the superficial, or you will be dealing with a very miserable lady.

You are completely right and I'm finding out the hard way looks are fleeting. Oh, I am still attractive, and I look much younger than my age. However, the reality is yes I am getting older. I am heavier than I was dancing (though not obese), I am getting grey strands (at this point they look like highlighting but who knows when they will become more than my dark hair?). My breasts, long my moneymakers because they looked fake but are real are starting to sag. People treat me differently when I don't look as hot, like days when I run out without makeup and not wearing hot clothes. I have to work harder to look good. I will say though that my mom is 63 and still looks good.

I am lucky because I have a brain. Recently I told a friend that sometimes I wish I was born average looking because my life would be different. I wouldn't have been a stripper or model and though there was positives about doing both I relied on my looks more than I should have. It was a rude awakening in my late 20's to see the modeling and dancing jobs start to dry up because I wasn't as hot as I was a few years earlier. I did look about the same, but many people would rather just hire the new 18 year old.

Unfortunately, older women are often left at a disadvantage because of this. For instance I will often lurk at online dating sites. I often see unattractive men seeking out hot women much younger. While they are delusional in most cases, in some, especially if they have money will get that. Also, when it comes to jobs, women are often discriminated if they are older or less attractive.

I think about the whole looks thing a lot lately. I see that I am getting older and quite frankly it scares me. The man I want I think is still hurting because I rejected him years ago because I was shallow and wanted a hot man. If he doesn't come around I face trying to date and this is hard because many of the decent looking guys my age can date younger, whereas women often can't.

girlfromipanema
01-04-2011, 02:56 AM
Men have a difficult time as well. Balding must suck. Erectile dysfunction can be devastating. They have to compete with younger men for jobs. A lot of men are delusional about how they look, though. An old man who dates 20 year olds looks just as silly and desperate as an old woman with too much plastic surgery.

Anyway the whole looks and sexual attractiveness thing is largely market driven and irrelevant. A painful and time consuming preoccupation.

Shit as I age I am more concerned with the fleetingness of life itself. The fact that I could tell my grand kids that I was once a looker is a novelty at best.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:22 AM
^ The only thing worst than being treated as a sex object, is not being treated as a sex object.
- Actual quote from a woman, but I forgot who said it.

It sounds like Mae West, but she put it this way: "It's better to be looked over than overlooked."


Scratch most feminists and underneath there is a woman who longs to be a sex object. The difference is that is not all she wants to be. ~Betty Rollin

Not just feminists. And many feminists often act like they do want to be sex objects - it's what many of them think being liberated means.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:23 AM
And what makes you so sure you see through the fantasy? Yes, the job is about more than my body, as evidenced by the unfortunate fact that I need to spend so much time talking to men at work, heh. But it's still not the real me they're getting to know. Even if a guy thinks he's "getting to know" me in the club, he's not. Because I'm not sharing anything real about my life. By which I mean I'm 1) not revealing any depth. I'm not going to express my intimate thoughts and feelings to a stranger I see in a bar as I would with my friends, families, partners, people I have genuine relationships with, and 2) I'm even lying about the superficial stuff, because I don't want strangers knowing where I really work for a day job, where I really go to school, what I'm studying, etc. Even if a guy is crazy about me and thinks I'm the greatest thing ever, it's not the real Elvia he's saying that about. He's talking about an Elvia that's 5 years younger, has a sexy day job that plays into cliched fantasies, loves socializing and partying, etc. He'd never even met the Elvia that is pushing 30, sits around playing on the internet all day, cries in the dressing room, and spends every free night sitting on the couch in pajama pants.

When I said I "see right through" the fantasy, I did not mean I can see the real person. I merely meant that I don't take the fantasy as real. I may not know the dancer's real persona but that does not mean I believe the fantasy is real. Not only strippers present themselves differently to how they really are. It's just that for them it is more necessary and contrived than is usual IRL.

I know from first-hand experience what you are talking about. I know how differently from her real self a stripper can behave, because sometimes they drop the mask.

My original point was nothing to do with whether a stripper is being herself in the club. It was merely that even when she is acting, her personal attributes and qualities come into play. They can be the reason she is better at being able to create such an alluring persona than other strippers.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:24 AM
Not guilty on both counts Jack...

I am expressing an opinion that happens to disagree with yours. I can't force you to think anything that you don't want to think...nor do I care to. As far as putting thoughts into your head how could I possibly do that? Your words are here for all to see. I am free to draw my own conclusions from them and comment just as you appear to have drawn your own conclusions of my posts.

He means that you are putting words into his mouth - reading the wrong thing into the words he said. Though I may be putting words into his mouth.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:25 AM
I pretty much just clarified and elaborated on yoda's posts and never tied what you were saying to KS.

In posts 54 and 78, you pontificated on how women and/or dancers ought or ought not feel about the lustful attention they get from men. Nothing is universal in such matters but any woman or dancer couldn't care less how you, I, yoda , or any other guy think they should be reacting to it

Jack didn't pontificate about anything in either of those posts. He did not say anything about how dancers should feel. He remarked that how they do feel appears ironic and speculated about why. What happened then is that KS_Stevia got pissed off (not necessarily at Jack, and she said it was largely because she was besieged in her bathroom by her abusive boyfriend) and went on a tirade about the actual reason she she does feel like she does.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:26 AM
You obviously have a very superficial view of what its like to work in a club. Most of the girls I know personally (and I assume this applies to most of the rest) see the money made as the only positive of the job. It is the one and only reason they are there. Everything else they deal with ranges from meaningless to emotionally challenging. The fact that some customers try to be inoffensive and generous doesn't make them thrive on what they are doing any way other than financially.

You could read that same point into the passage you quoted, since it does mention that the customers are spending a lot of money on her.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:28 AM
Dude, seriously, this is an internet chat board, not a strip club. What exactly is it that I have to gain by disagreeing with you? I don't know what sort of "man code" you live by but count me out! Cock-blocking? On Line? That's some good stuff your smoking their!

Whether you like it or not the fact is I have a right to post my opinion of anything that anyone else posts here and I am not obligated to provide quotations or footnotes. I'm not submitting legal brief or an academic dissertation, I'm just disagreeing with you.

That's right, it's a chat board, so if you post your opinion people are going to comment on it. I didn't hear Jack question your right to post it.

If you post your opinion on somebody else's post, you should properly represent what they said in doing so. If you don't, he is entitled to challenge it. You don't have to spend time in a library referencing it, but you should properly read the post you are responding to and you should give an actual reason for criticizing it. Challenging somebody else's opinion is not the same thing as just posting a different opinion to theirs. You directly criticized Jack's opinion. If you don't want to justify it, don't tell him not to respond to it.

By criticizing Jack's opinion and then telling him not to comment on your opinion of what he said, you are clearly applying a double standard. You are criticizing another person and then running for cover of your "right to state your opinion" when he challenges you back. Regardless of what your rights are, this is extremely disingenuous. It's as silly as trying to hide behind a pole two meters away in a game of hide-and-seek and then getting angry because the finder didn't pretend not to see you.

Hopper
01-04-2011, 05:43 AM
Fascinating. Two men trying to explain how a woman should feel about herself...

No, I was explaining how I feel. KS_Stevia's post about how she feels was based on her notion of how customers feel about strippers. But Jack asked about how strippers feel and why and KS_Stevia answered it.

I realize that strippers are basically sex objects to customers and strippers generally don't seem flattered by the attention they get from customers. I was just pointing out that, regardless of how a stripper may feel about it, a woman's sexual desirability is not divorced from her personal qualities or attributes; whereas KS_Stevia was characterizing it as purely physical. But however much a customer may like a stripper's personal qualities as well as her body, and however much a woman's esteem may rely on her body, women IRL don't find it flattering when they get the kind of attention strippers get in SCs. SC customers also are not likely to be choosing a stripper for an LD out of especially good taste in women, even if they have it. That happens IRL as well.

Remember that some strippers actually like what they do and like their customers and therefore, in their jobs, might enjoy that kind of attention. All I said is that Jack had a point, not that stripping actually does boost self-esteem. Jack didn't say that it does. He said it is ironic that they don't.

A stripper may feel her body is less important to her esteem when in the club than when outside the club in the "real" world, because (as Jack pointed out) in the club she is getting almost nothing but attention for her body, and often the kind of attention she doesn't enjoy, from men she doesn't like. Getting attention from men she doesn't like probably doesn't do a lot for a woman's feeling of self-worth; attention from men she does like is what makes her feel worthy. (However, the fact that a girl is getting attention from any man is itself a boost to her ego, though she may take this for granted. Like Jack said, she'd miss it if it didn't happen - she really does like it that she can knock back unwelcome attention.)

Consider also that while the customer's attention itself may not boost a stripper's self worth, her ability to succeed at her job probably will, and that is based on her sexual desirability also. A stripper who is not desirable enough to succeed will feel less self-worth. Success in our work gives us all self-worth, regardless of how much we care about what our customers think.

I don't believe in popular notion of the "body/mind" or "body/spirit" as seperate domains. I don't believe that that sexual desirability is completely (or even primarily) physical, therefore I don't understand why talking about a woman only in terms of her sexual desirability is necessarily "objectification". That notion goes against common experience. However, in the mind of the man sexual attention can be impersonal. Whatever personal qualities caus a man to be attracted to a woman, he can still treat her only as an object for satisfying his sexual urges.

Almost Jaded
01-04-2011, 06:17 AM
I was focusing on the looks "GYT" thing as an example; I'm not ALL that shallow, lmao. And I did utterly fail to differentiate between self confidence and self esteem, a critical error in lazy terminology that shall not be repeated.

Getting past some of the back & forth of the last two pages, there's a lot of good stuff in there. :)

PS - KS - there are guys out there with ready access to GYT's (I am SO stuck on that forever now lol) that can appreciate a woman in her middle age. Hell, one of our favorite "playmates" is 42 years old. She's quite a looker for 42, but after 3 kids she's most assuredly not 22 anymore. Still an amazing woman and absolutely beautiful in her own rite, as I'm sure you are and will continue to be.

Damnit, now I feel the need to expound on that even more and I know it's unnecessary but I'll do it anyway. *sigh*

I just missed out on an amazing lady I met on OKC because she became intimidated by MM and our GF. She was in her mid 30's, brilliant, funny, sensual, and truly beautiful; a few middle age pounds don't bother me at all. One of the most amazing women I've ever met in my life, and I will be forever saddened that she was unwilling to be even friends after deciding that she couldn't continue on even casually. She knew about our relationship beforehand and was fine with everything - until she saw the girls. She have me a couple of ho-hum reasons and never spoke to me again. Really sad. :(

KS_Stevia
01-04-2011, 07:06 AM
Almost Jaded - but of course there are those men with constant access to GYT. They certainly exist. I meant, for the readership here, and for decent guys everywhere. I don't consider access to GYT because of wealth to be any more valuable than access to yachts and private jets. GYT become a commodity. I meant inter-personal relationships.


Kellydancer.
I feel exactly the same as you do, in my mid-30's now. Like, exactly the same. This is why I don't think jack and some of the others really get what we're saying because its something that has to be experienced to be understood.

Except I don't wish I was average looking because I honestly think I'm just average anyway...when it comes to marketable beauty. I was never raised with the idea that I'd be a model or a beauty queen, my mom is the breadwinner and professional in a highly respected occupation. But I absolutely adored learning how to use what I had, looks wise, to improve upon an ok pallette in order to get what I needed from men. Would I have caught the attention of the Donald Trump's of the world, who only go for the most beautiful models. No. But is appears there is an endless supply of lonely and/or horny men willing to help out, or just give you attention...or, there was.


Jack..how to compliment your girl: Aside from the obvious, that is complicated and I will get you it
later.

How to be a more sensitive customer and compliment your stripper better? EASIEST thing in the entire world:
1. Treat her with the professional courtesy you would expect in your own business, with obvious modifications for the environment you are in. Don't waste her time or ask her for business services she doesn't provide. Think about your best client and worst client as an attorney. Mimic the best one

2. Spend money and tip well. Compliment her for things you feel should be complimented, not empty contrived drivel.

And have fun, show her you appreciate her time with you. Oh, and spend and tip well. Its much easier with a stripper than your girlfriend, lolz.

yoda57us
01-04-2011, 07:37 AM
He means that you are putting words into his mouth - reading the wrong thing into the words he said. Though I may be putting words into his mouth.

I actually agree with you. It's a fairly common response when one poster doesn't agree with another. I get accused of "misunderstanding" people all the time on chat boards when all I am doing is not agreeing with them. All I can do is read the words and comment accordingly. If something said after the original post clarifies a POV I may change my opinion but that rarely happens. Most folks are pretty well invested in their thought process.

Honestly, to me it's just not that big of a deal. We are a bunch of strangers on the internet. Debate is what keeps things interesting.

Kellydancer
01-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Kellydancer.
I feel exactly the same as you do, in my mid-30's now. Like, exactly the same. This is why I don't think jack and some of the others really get what we're saying because its something that has to be experienced to be understood.

Except I don't wish I was average looking because I honestly think I'm just average anyway...when it comes to marketable beauty. I was never raised with the idea that I'd be a model or a beauty queen, my mom is the breadwinner and professional in a highly respected occupation. But I absolutely adored learning how to use what I had, looks wise, to improve upon an ok pallette in order to get what I needed from men. Would I have caught the attention of the Donald Trump's of the world, who only go for the most beautiful models. No. But is appears there is an endless supply of lonely and/or horny men willing to help out, or just give you attention...or, there was.

In terms of say celebrity like Trump I am certainly not at that level either. I (and I'm sure you as well) are above average looks but not at that level and it's fine. I see photos of several women here and I personally don't think I am as hot as many of them, but of course it's all in perspective and some guys here would think either of us are hotter than some of them.

My mother was always a beauty (I often tell people she was a living Barbie doll because that's what she looked like) and in a way I always wanted to have her popularity with guys. She was never a model or dancer, but could have been. She would tell me stories on how she had several boyfriends and how she could have had any guy. I know to some extent since I was never as popular with men as she was (for one I was brunette and brunettes are treated worse than blondes) I wanted to overcompensate for this. I suspect because of this I wanted to work in a looks based field. Because I was attractive I gravitated towards modeling and dancing, sometimes with horrifying results such as rejection. While I sometimes do get modeling and dancing jobs they are nowhere near what they were and as I age they will slim to nothing.

This of course translates into all aspect of life. For instance, dating. I love someone but if I don't end up with him I am terrified. People often say men have it just as rough but I disagree. I've seen unattractive men find wives, but unattractive women rarely find husbands, unless they are unattractive too. I know at my age there are still single men (I'm finding single men into the mid 40's around here) but many don't want me. I see many guys in their early 40's online still looking for hot girls. I fear that if the guy I want never comes around that I'll either have to give up several important things to find a mate or not find one at all.

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 12:29 PM
Unfortunately, older women are often left at a disadvantage because of this. For instance I will often lurk at online dating sites. I often see unattractive men seeking out hot women much younger. While they are delusional in most cases, in some, especially if they have money will get that. Also, when it comes to jobs, women are often discriminated if they are older or less attractive.

I think about the whole looks thing a lot lately. I see that I am getting older and quite frankly it scares me. The man I want I think is still hurting because I rejected him years ago because I was shallow and wanted a hot man. If he doesn't come around I face trying to date and this is hard because many of the decent looking guys my age can date younger, whereas women often can't.

I agree that older women are at some disadvantage, because of our society's obsession with youth and looks, but I think their situation is improving.

I've dated younger women, but I've also dated older women. In fact, my GF is a few years older.

Also, the whole "couger", "Mature" and "MILF" genres have made it evident that older women can be extremely sensual and sexy. (I anticipate the attack on my logic will be something like this: Jack, you are too simplistic, cougers and MILFs are for casual sex and porn fetishes, not for romantic coupling. -- But, my point is that older women are becoming more sexy than they've ever been in the past... and that's better than them being ignored by our society completely.)

Confidence is one of the sexiest things in a woman. If an "older" woman shows a lack of confidence around young pretty things, this will make her look weak, insecure and unappealing. On the other hand, a confident "older" sexy woman can be extremely appealing.

bem401
01-04-2011, 01:04 PM
Jack didn't pontificate about anything in either of those posts. He did not say anything about how dancers should feel. He remarked that how they do feel appears ironic and speculated about why.

Telling someone their reaction is ironic is the same as telling them it is unjustified. Telling someone their reaction is unjustified is the same as telling them they ought to react differently.

bem401
01-04-2011, 01:14 PM
You could read that same point into the passage you quoted, since it does mention that the customers are spending a lot of money on her.

But I am acknowledging that that is the only part of the job they don't hate (or at least dislike). They like the money, they tolerate the regulars who give it to them, and they intensely dislike everything else about the job, from what they wear to getting on stage to dealing with the assortment of guys in the place. Unless I am mistaken, the attention heaped on them by the general patrons is part of the price they have to pay for the opportunity to make what they're hoping to make.

yoda57us
01-04-2011, 01:36 PM
You could read that same point into the passage you quoted, since it does mention that the customers are spending a lot of money on her.

LOL, and this brings us back to square one...

Bem is not equating that money to a dancer's self esteem, which is the the point we are arguing here. He is simply stating, factually IMHO, that for many women it is the only reason that they tolerate the job.

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 01:57 PM
Telling someone their reaction is ironic is the same as telling them it is unjustified.

This is getting so silly, that even I'm getting bored... Now, you're reaching past the actual literal text of my posts, to get deep down to subtext and interpretation. I'm not a prophet, no need to dig so deep.

"Ironic" just means... ironic,... despite what you want it to mean when I'm using the word.

A lot of things are ironic, yet true and "justified"... Life is full of irony. Four custies arguing ad infinitum about a woman's self-esteem on an exotic dancer's site is ironic - but "justified"... LMAO.

Kellydancer
01-04-2011, 02:12 PM
I agree that older women are at some disadvantage, because of our society's obsession with youth and looks, but I think their situation is improving.

I've dated younger women, but I've also dated older women. In fact, my GF is a few years older.

Also, the whole "couger", "Mature" and "MILF" genres have made it evident that older women can be extremely sensual and sexy. (I anticipate the attack on my logic will be something like this: Jack, you are too simplistic, cougers and MILFs are for casual sex and porn fetishes, not for romantic coupling. -- But, my point is that older women are becoming more sexy than they've ever been in the past... and that's better than them being ignored by our society completely.)

Confidence is one of the sexiest things in a woman. If an "older" woman shows a lack of confidence around young pretty things, this will make her look weak, insecure and unappealing. On the other hand, a confident "older" sexy woman can be extremely appealing.


I'm starting to hear of more older woman-younger men marriages so I feel better about this. I don't mean huge age gaps, just a few years difference, which is no big deal to many people. I found a singles group near me and according to the guy in charge (it's a Catholic singles group) there are a few men even into their early 40's in the group. While lurking at a singles dating site I found a guy who mentioned he attended this singles group looking for a wife. While I have no idea if he'd be interested in me or me in him he's 36 so really not that much younger than me. My only fear though is these guys will see my age and not be interested because I am going to be 40 and close to menopause (though I am not even close to menopause). However, when I show my photos people think I am younger and awhile back a club offered me a dancing job.

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Bem is not equating that money to a dancer's self esteem, which is the the point we are arguing here. He is simply stating, factually IMHO, that for many women it is the only reason that they tolerate the job.

Not sure what your point is yoda... Every person "tolerates" their job only for money - that's why its a "job" and not a recreation or hobbie.

If what you're saying is that every dancer despises her job more than "normal" people despise their job, and subjects herself to what she considers to be a uniquely despicable job, solely for monetary award, then,... I think you're overgeneralizing a tad and being condescending at the same time.

bem401
01-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Four custies arguing ad infinitum about a woman's self-esteem on an exotic dancer's site is ironic - but "justified"... LMAO.

Actually, Yoda and I are proposing that four custies debating dancer self-esteem is ironic because it is incongruous to therm. We are as knowledgeable on the topic as we would be on menstruation or some other specifically feminine condition. We are just saying "admit its out of your realm of expertise and move on"

bem401
01-04-2011, 02:34 PM
If what you're saying is that every dancer despises her job more than "normal" people despise their job, and subjects herself to what she considers to be a uniquely despicable job, solely for monetary award, then,... I think you're overgeneralizing a tad and being condescending at the same time.

Try this on for size..... " The overwhelming majority of dancers seem to despise their job more than typical workers despise their jobs because they consider it to be a uniquely despicable job, solely for monetary award".

yoda57us
01-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Not sure what your point is yoda... Every person "tolerates" their job only for money - that's why its a "job" and not a recreation or hobbie.

Um...Really? I happen to love what I do for a living. Would I do it for free? No, but that doesn't mean I despise it and just tolerate it in order to make a living.


If what you're saying is that every dancer despises her job more than "normal" people despise their job, and subjects herself to what she considers to be a uniquely despicable job, solely for monetary award, then,... I think you're overgeneralizing a tad and being condescending at the same time.

Actually Bem is taking it to that level, not me. I don't happen to think that every dancer "despises" her job. Though I have met many who do I have also met quite a few who actually look forward to going in to the club and getting paid a lot of money for looking pretty while sitting around a bar. Again, this doesn't mean it's easy and it doesn't mean that some guys don't piss them off but no job that pays well is truly easy...though others may sometimes see it that way.

I'm not personally over generalizing anything. In fact, the reason you and I are even having this argument and the reason you think I am nothing more than a dancer suck-up, is because I don't buy into generalizations about women in general or dancers in particular.

yoda57us
01-04-2011, 02:40 PM
A lot of things are ironic, yet true and "justified"... Life is full of irony. Four custies arguing ad infinitum about a woman's self-esteem on an exotic dancer's site is ironic - but "justified"... LMAO.

I knew we'd agree on something sooner or later...

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 02:40 PM
My only fear though is these guys will see my age and not be interested because I am going to be 40 and close to menopause (though I am not even close to menopause). However, when I show my photos people think I am younger and awhile back a club offered me a dancing job.

Personally, I don't think age matters much, unless the guy wants to have a big family, like four kids. Why do you even have to disclose your age?

My favorite dancer was around 40. She was stunning - excellent shape, super hot body, exuberant, confident, smart and extremely erotic. I even started a thread about how she made me change my personal preferences from younger dancers to older dancers.

http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?t=140539

bem401
01-04-2011, 04:53 PM
Um...Really? I happen to love what I do for a living. Would I do it for free? No, but that doesn't mean I despise it and just tolerate it in order to make a living.

I agree with Yoda yet again. I absolutely love teaching math and golf to motivated, capable students though such students aren't nearly numerous enough. Depending on the student and the circumstances, doing it pro bono is not out of the question.

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 05:51 PM
^ You guys are so very lucky not to be dancers... (sarcasm).

To me, my job is just a job - there are some things I love about it and there are some things I hate about it.

This seems to be the way many (NOT ALL) dancers feel about their job, too, - and I say this based NOT on my subjective version of reality, but on the way they express themselves here on SW.

Things dancers have said they love about their job, besides the money - flexible hours, they set their own schedule, they can go to school while working, they can travel, they are independent, they can retire young (if they invested their earnings wisely - like Melonie), etc.

Of course the most attractive feature of their job is the money - compare working in an entry level job or working in the bottom rung of a corporation, for next to minimum wage, with making $75,000 or more as a dancer. Some dancers have said here on SW that their only regret is not getting into dancing sooner.

I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture of dancers, but I am trying to balance your dim picture of a low self-esteem woman who dances for survival, but, tragically hates herself for doing it. Yes, there are probably some women on opposite extremes of the spectrum, but most are probably in the middle. Also, there are many other variables - a young dancer without kids who is a college student or grad, and has many work options, but chooses to be a dancer, is not in the same position as a dancer with no college education who is a single mom with two kids to feed.

Almost Jaded
01-04-2011, 05:53 PM
I'm going to make this REALLY messy and say that the only real irony here is that you are all using the word irony incorrectly. :P

bem401
01-04-2011, 06:13 PM
I'm going to make this REALLY messy and say that the only real irony here is that you are all using the word irony incorrectly. :P

I dunno, I'm a math person but afaik ironic and incongruous are synonyms and I used both words in that context once the word was introduced. To me, something "ironic " "just doesn't make sense".

jack0177057
01-04-2011, 06:30 PM
I'll pass on the new debate of what "ironic" means, except to say that "ironic" and "incongruous" are definitely not the same thing...

"Ironic" to me means something that turns out to be the opposite of what you expected, e.g. something that should have been good, but turned out to be bad... Read lyrics of Alanis Morissett's "Ironic":
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/ironic.html

"Incongruous" is similar to the concept of inconsistent (i.e., not congruent)... Like if you tell a woman that you only have eyes for her, but, while saying this, your attention is diverted to a really hot woman standing in the corner of the room.

bem401
01-04-2011, 06:38 PM
I'll pass on the new debate of what "ironic" means, except to say that "ironic" and "incongruous" are definitely not the same thing...


According to dictionary.com, "irony" and "incongruity" are synonyms. Therefore the corresponding adjectives would also be. (BTW, one of my side jobs is teaching SAT English Prep on Saturdays.)

Almost Jaded
01-04-2011, 06:47 PM
Like if you tell a woman that you only have eyes for her, but, while saying this, your attention is diverted to a really hot woman standing in the corner of the room.

The correct use of irony and/or ironic has been watered down in the common vernacular. The above example could be incongruous, yes.

To make it ironic, the person telling the women they only have eyes for her would be blind.

Four custies talking in the example used previously is incongruous for sure. The fact that the convo in question is being had on a Vb board for strippers does lend an element of irony I suppose.

The example I once heard - and I laughed a bit - was this: A porn star moving to Virgin, Utah would usually be referred to as ironic, but it's actually incongruous. A porn star moving to Knob Hill, Montana is ironic.

bem401
01-04-2011, 06:52 PM
^ You guys are so very lucky not to be dancers... (sarcasm).

More than one dancer has said essentially this to me,


Things dancers have said they love about their job, besides the money - flexible hours, they set their own schedule, they can go to school while working, they can travel, they are independent, they can retire young (if they invested their earnings wisely - like Melonie), etc.

These are things they might tell themselves when they wrestle over the worthwhileness of the job, but they are not things exclusive to dancing. The only thing fairly exclusive to the dancing is the earning potential.


your dim picture of a low self-esteem woman who dances for survival, but, tragically hates herself for doing it.

Where on Earth did I (or Yoda, for that matter) say anything resembling this? We just said it was not our place to tell dancers how they ought to react to things about their job they found unpleasant.

yoda57us
01-04-2011, 06:57 PM
^ You guys are so very lucky not to be dancers... (sarcasm).

I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture of dancers, but I am trying to balance your dim picture of a low self-estee

You're trying to paint Bem and I with the same brush here Jack. We may be agreeing on a few things in this thread but his words are not mine.

I am not painting any pictures here. I know better. All I have done is take exception to a theory that you put forward regarding a certain aspect of the job. I don't think I've ever said anywhere, on this thread or any other, that dancers are miserable human beings. I was married for 27 years and, trust me, I know what it's like to be with a miserable woman. I wouldn't spend time and especially not money on any woman that was truly miserable...and it really isn't that hard to tell.

hockeybobby
01-04-2011, 07:03 PM
Alanis Morisette's song should have been called "Isn't it a bummer?" imo.

/end threadjack of threadjack

Almost Jaded
01-04-2011, 08:20 PM
^I actually LOL'd at that.

Kellydancer
01-04-2011, 08:30 PM
Personally, I don't think age matters much, unless the guy wants to have a big family, like four kids. Why do you even have to disclose your age?

My favorite dancer was around 40. She was stunning - excellent shape, super hot body, exuberant, confident, smart and extremely erotic. I even started a thread about how she made me change my personal preferences from younger dancers to older dancers.



Unfortunately many men think that once a woman gets older she's less attractive. Many men datingwise think that because a woman is 40 she doesn't want kids or can't have them. This is wrong of course because women can be naturally fertile until mid's and some much later, while many younger women aren't fertile at all.

KS_Stevia
01-04-2011, 08:55 PM
I loved dancing and being a stripper! But the environment can be so toxic that its hard to get much out of it long term, aside from the freedom of fast money for working relatively fewer hours than a civilian counterpart.

Yes, I said it. Most strippers don't make $75K plus. Not at all. Not even the ones in Vegas and NYC. No point in going into it; some of it is the nature of the industry: young girls making a bunch of cash become pretty lazy because they don't see the long-term benefits of maximizing profit now. The people you see everyday, custies and managers...trying to get a piece of you.

BUT, regardless, I totally think stripping was awesome for me and I also wish I had started earlier and stuck with it more consistently. OR, maybe I shouldn't have ever done it at all and would have been a gooddam executive VP right now!

Kellydancer
01-04-2011, 09:39 PM
I loved dancing and being a stripper! But the environment can be so toxic that its hard to get much out of it long term, aside from the freedom of fast money for working relatively fewer hours than a civilian counterpart.

Yes, I said it. Most strippers don't make $75K plus. Not at all. Not even the ones in Vegas and NYC. No point in going into it; some of it is the nature of the industry: young girls making a bunch of cash become pretty lazy because they don't see the long-term benefits of maximizing profit now. The people you see everyday, custies and managers...trying to get a piece of you.

BUT, regardless, I totally think stripping was awesome for me and I also wish I had started earlier and stuck with it more consistently. OR, maybe I shouldn't have ever done it at all and would have been a gooddam executive VP right now!

Agreed. I think that if I was going to do it again I'd screw over far more men than I did. There I said it. I should have led more men one.

Almost Jaded
01-04-2011, 10:08 PM
LOL!

I hate to say it, but you are SO right on the money (no pun intended).

When MM started hanging out with a top earner who has ZERO scruples inside the club - and I mean this chick brags about how bad she can rip people off - she had her first 4 figure night ever (she'd come close a couple times but never quite broke $1,000) within a couple weeks. Then did it again a week later. Then set another personal best - just shy of $2k - a couple nights after that.

2+ years where $300 was a good night and $500 was a great night, 4 or 5 nights over $500 in that time, never broke a grand.

2 months with this girl as her mentor and suddenly $200-$300 is a slower night, $500 decent, and she broke $1,000 three times in less than 2 weeks.

She isn't willing to screw custies over quite as bad as the girl in question, but her attitude has definitely changed, and her money has skyrocketed as a result.

It really is all about attitude, hustle, and drive. There is no reason why any dancer can't make $75k in a reasonably sized city. In the down economy I know dozens who were well past $100k last year, and the only real difference between them and most others are those three things - they work their asses off, hustle like used car salespeople, and keep their heads up no matter how bad it gets.

Rookie2010
01-04-2011, 11:44 PM
I wonder what percentage of guys think they can buy a dancers/womans love? Thinking that the more they spend she will some day realize "wow he's spending a lot of money on me he must really like me, i'm going to date him now!"

lol

Djoser
01-05-2011, 02:04 AM
...the only real difference between them and most others are those three things - they work their asses off, hustle like used car salespeople, and keep their heads up no matter how bad it gets.

They also don't drink or use serious drugs--though I have known a very few who could bank while getting wasted, they would probably have made even more if they'd stayed sober.

kisakim99
01-05-2011, 02:16 AM
im sick of this pua thing lol someone tried some tricks on me entertaining, just give me money please. not to mention how obvious it was X_X it still isnt going to work if i know im not going out with you while i have to play along. i do enjoy my customers, just keep in mind this isnt the place to be trying to pick up chicks

Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:08 AM
I wasn't talking about strippers, I was talking about women. And I haven't forgotten a thing about how stripping related to my self-esteem.

Here's the thing JackL I am well aware of the validation I get from being considered sexy and sexually desirable: both as a stripper and as a current civilian. But....what occurs to our self-esteem when the inevitable, horrible "A" word occurs. Its something we can't stop....

AGING

At some point, no matter how much Vic Secret we buy, we are no longer going to be classified as generally sexually desirable by the average male. They are no longer going to give us compliments and accolades with the sly intention of getting in our pants. We all age. And whilst there is still beauty with age, and tons of anti-aging products and surgeries, the compliments and the knowledge that you are turning heads will dwindle.

How about two more things:
1. Losing your looks do to illness or an accident
2. Generally unattractive people in general

Do you think Janet Reno has low self-esteem?

All I'm saying...is that good looks and sexual attractiveness are fleeting. If a stripper or any civilian woman wants to prevent spending the second half of her life in an void of depression from feeling worthless...there had better be something she sees in herself besides her looks.

That is all I'm saying. Self-confidence can be largely based on looks for a long time. True self-esteem must come from something deeper than the superficial, or you will be dealing with a very miserable lady.

It's a weird state of affairs for women today, that they have to worry about aging. Many of them (like some talking here) are approaching or have reached middle age and have not yet married. It's very common today, but it didn't used to be.

Back then, women cared about their looks basically because they wanted a mate, because their ambition was to have a family. (Nobody start on me about careers, because a family doesn't exclude a career.) But they only had to worry about their looks for the short time before they married. Today they care about their looks because they want to be "independent" and have fun their whole young lives instead. They wait until they can't have fun for much longer before they think about marriage and children (or else are sad just because they can't go on having fun), but for the same reason that the fun is gone, their chances of attracting a suitable husband are far less.

When women married reasonably young, the pressure was off as far as looks. They still cared about their looks, as did their husbands (they still had to be able to keep him), but their source of self-worth moved on from sexual attractiveness to their value as wife and mother by their families. This was a natural result of simply being tied to them by marriage and birth and also because she worked to materially, emotionally and spiritually support them.

It's harder to do that with something else, like a career. Both married men and women are valued by their families because they support their families and are tied to them as a family. Men aren't valued by their families because of their career achievement, but by how that achievement enables them to support their families and, outside of their career altogether, what sort of husbands and fathers they are to their families. Not all men derive self-worth directly from their jobs - for many it is only a means of providing income.

So married women have it easy in the self-worth department. They have a captive audience so to speak. With a career, it has to be achieved through sheer work, so you had better enjoy it and had better start early. And to enjoy it, it has to be a calling. Or else it has to be based on some kind of heart-felt, driving ambition.

But when a single woman gets to age 35-40 and then has to start worrying about her self-worth, and about whether she can still attract good men - for either dating or marriage - then what is she going to do? Start a career? If she had a genuine calling to a profession, achievement in that would be a source of self-worth, but she would also likely have begun it decades earlier and accomplished something with it. She is not considering a career for that reason now, she is just looking for alternatives to her fading attractiveness. She might have had a calling all along and just put if off until now, but she still has her work ahead of her to succeed in it and derive self-worth from it.

I'm not saying women's self-worth was entirely based on appearance before they got married; it's just that our self-worth tends to rely on how capable we are of achieving our ambitions, which is tied to how others value us, because achieving our ambitions usually involves the cooperation of other people. So indirectly our self-worth does come to rely on how others perceive us. "Worth" implies "worthiness", which implies how others receive us. People are by nature individuals (though many don't show it), but they are not entirely self-sufficient. If you disagree, try living alone on a deserted island for a year. In what way we care about others perceiving us depends on our personal ambitions, to the extent that we need the aid of others in fulfilling them. In other words, who we care about impressing and in what way depends on what we wish to gain from it for ourselves.

The point of all this is that by the time women start to age, it shouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter if they didn't plan their lives as if they are never going to age.

I am not saying that older women cannot get married. Just that they will probably only find someone around their own age, and even that will be hard because men their age also want a younger spouse.

The reason I'm going into this is that many women just seem oblivious to what is going on. They cruise along until close to when age sets in and then seem surprised because dating is harder and marriage seems improbable. Up to then they didn't want to be tied down but suddenly now that dating is coming to an end, they do want it. They actually seem to wonder why it's happening. It's an indictment on our society's attitudes to life and sex that this actually takes them by surprise. In their magazines and other media, they have been promised something else, something which is not in the natural order of things.

Please don't criticize me for talking about appearance and self-worth - KS_Stevia is the one who said (in the above post) that when a single woman ages, she has to find a new source of self-worth to replace her vanishing youth. Argue with her if you disagree. I'm just agreeing.

Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:12 AM
Telling someone their reaction is ironic is the same as telling them it is unjustified. Telling someone their reaction is unjustified is the same as telling them they ought to react differently.

There are several definitions or usages of the word "irony".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

The one Jack was using is: "an outcome of events contrary to what was, ormight have been, expected." Saying an outcome is different to what is expected is not the same as saying the outcome is unjustified.

Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:17 AM
But I am acknowledging that that is the only part of the job they don't hate (or at least dislike). They like the money, they tolerate the regulars who give it to them, and they intensely dislike everything else about the job, from what they wear to getting on stage to dealing with the assortment of guys in the place. Unless I am mistaken, the attention heaped on them by the general patrons is part of the price they have to pay for the opportunity to make what they're hoping to make.

Okay, I misread you. But KS_Stevia didn't say anything about how she hated the job in her response to Jack's post. She said later that she liked it. She was only talking about the relation between attention from customers and self-worth.

But the fact remains that even though the stripper may not get self worth directly from the customers' attention, and though she may hate the work, if she is deriving a large income from her personal attributes, it may still give her some self-worth. By "self esteem" Jack meant only confidence in her attractiveness to other men. That doesn't require that she enjoys the attention she gets from other customers. Jack's original point still seems good to me. He wasn't careful to specify exactly what he meant, so it is ambiguous. But because he didn't specify, it was wrong for people to assume that he meant something which he did not explicitly state.

Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:19 AM
Not sure what your point is yoda... Every person "tolerates" their job only for money - that's why its a "job" and not a recreation or hobbie.

If what you're saying is that every dancer despises her job more than "normal" people despise their job, and subjects herself to what she considers to be a uniquely despicable job, solely for monetary award, then,... I think you're overgeneralizing a tad and being condescending at the same time.

True. There are varying degrees of work enjoyment, from loving it, to loving your profession but not the actual job, to dull or unpleasant. What is "normal"? There are various kinds of jobs and many of them are worse than stripping, unpleasant as that may be for many strippers. If stripping were the worst job, many strippers would be doing something else, despite the higher pay.

Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:20 AM
I dunno, I'm a math person but afaik ironic and incongruous are synonyms and I used both words in that context once the word was introduced. To me, something "ironic " "just doesn't make sense".

The word "incongruous" appears in one of the definitions I linked to, and something which is ironic could also be incongruous, but "incongruous" is not given as a synonym.