View Full Version : Men, the chances of you dating a dancer are slim.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:20 AM
Actually, Yoda and I are proposing that four custies debating dancer self-esteem is ironic because it is incongruous to therm. We are as knowledgeable on the topic as we would be on menstruation or some other specifically feminine condition. We are just saying "admit its out of your realm of expertise and move on"
Whatever you are proposing now, your original criticism of Jack's post was that he was telling strippers how to feel, and he was not. Don't change the subject.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:23 AM
Unfortunately many men think that once a woman gets older she's less attractive. Many men datingwise think that because a woman is 40 she doesn't want kids or can't have them. This is wrong of course because women can be naturally fertile until mid's and some much later, while many younger women aren't fertile at all.
If children are the issue, you can adopt. Only problem there is that the man may want to continue his line by having children of his own.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:26 AM
LOL!
I hate to say it, but you are SO right on the money (no pun intended).
When MM started hanging out with a top earner who has ZERO scruples inside the club - and I mean this chick brags about how bad she can rip people off - she had her first 4 figure night ever (she'd come close a couple times but never quite broke $1,000) within a couple weeks. Then did it again a week later. Then set another personal best - just shy of $2k - a couple nights after that.
2+ years where $300 was a good night and $500 was a great night, 4 or 5 nights over $500 in that time, never broke a grand.
2 months with this girl as her mentor and suddenly $200-$300 is a slower night, $500 decent, and she broke $1,000 three times in less than 2 weeks.
She isn't willing to screw custies over quite as bad as the girl in question, but her attitude has definitely changed, and her money has skyrocketed as a result.
It really is all about attitude, hustle, and drive. There is no reason why any dancer can't make $75k in a reasonably sized city. In the down economy I know dozens who were well past $100k last year, and the only real difference between them and most others are those three things - they work their asses off, hustle like used car salespeople, and keep their heads up no matter how bad it gets.
What exactly do you mean by "rip off" and "screw over'? Do you mean expressly agree to something and not deliver? Or just lead men to believe something and not deliver? Or just manipulate them into spending more using pretense/fantasy? Talk him into buying something he doesn't want?
bem401
01-05-2011, 03:33 AM
The one Jack was using is: "an outcome of events contrary to what was, ormight have been, expected." Saying an outcome is different to what is expected is not the same as saying the outcome is unjustified.
An outcome is "unjustified" when its not supported by the facts of the matter. When people with no knowledge or experience with an issue speak out about it, they can't justify what they say or expect.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:38 AM
I agree that older women are at some disadvantage, because of our society's obsession with youth and looks, but I think their situation is improving.
I've dated younger women, but I've also dated older women. In fact, my GF is a few years older.
Also, the whole "couger", "Mature" and "MILF" genres have made it evident that older women can be extremely sensual and sexy. (I anticipate the attack on my logic will be something like this: Jack, you are too simplistic, cougers and MILFs are for casual sex and porn fetishes, not for romantic coupling. -- But, my point is that older women are becoming more sexy than they've ever been in the past... and that's better than them being ignored by our society completely.)
Confidence is one of the sexiest things in a woman. If an "older" woman shows a lack of confidence around young pretty things, this will make her look weak, insecure and unappealing. On the other hand, a confident "older" sexy woman can be extremely appealing.
The trend which needs to change is not in men's attraction towards older women but in the age women stop playing around and start looking for a mate. If we follow the first line, what do we do about truly elderly women? You are all only thinking about women your own ages, but there is a point where sexual attractiveness really is pretty much gone, at least in the eyes of far younger men. It's illogical for a woman to complain about older women not being attractive to younger men when the reason she is complaining is that she is not attracted to older men.
I don't lay this all at women's feet. There are reasons why it is hard for women who want to marry to get married and for why other women would not wish to get married. Men are as preoccupied with eternal youth as women, so many of them are in no rush to be married. The general attitudes and philosophies which have been popularized in our society have also made many men unsuitable or non-ideal husbands. Many wouldn't know how to even attract and keep a woman. Of course there are female counterparts as well, which is also part of the problem. There are financial and institutional obstacles to having a family. There is the "feminist dream" of "fulfilment" which has caused many women to postpone marriage and a family for the sake of career success, because they don't believe they can manage both.
Society has gone in the wrong direction and most people don't realize it (or they wouldn't be going in the wrong direction). But they feel the effects.
bem401
01-05-2011, 03:38 AM
The word "incongruous" appears in one of the definitions I linked to, and something which is ironic could also be incongruous, but "incongruous" is not given as a synonym.
As I posted earlier, dictionary.com lists irony and incongruity as synonyms.
bem401
01-05-2011, 03:43 AM
Whatever you are proposing now, your original criticism of Jack's post was that he was telling strippers how to feel, and he was not. Don't change the subject.
If that wasn't what he was doing, what was he doing? My comment was to be careful commenting on anything you have no experience in to people who have experience there.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:45 AM
An outcome is "unjustified" when its not supported by the facts of the matter. When people with no knowledge or experience with an issue speak out about it, they can't justify what they say or expect.
Jack didn't say that his expectations were justified. He was using the term "ironic" fairly loosely. As yoda said about his own posts, Jack was not posting a legal brief or a dissertation. I think the intended meaning of Jack's post was fairly clear, even if it is not carefully articulated. You are taking him too much to task for the careful wording of his post. The fact is that you and yoda read something into his post which clearly was not said in it and instead of admitting error you started picking apart the literal reading of his post in an overly technical manner to try to make your reading fit.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:47 AM
As I posted earlier, dictionary.com lists irony and incongruity as synonyms.
No, that's the same site I linked to, and it does not list incongruous as a synonym; it merely uses the word "incongruous" in one of the definitions. Not the same thing. Look again.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 03:52 AM
If that wasn't what he was doing, what was he doing? My comment was to be careful commenting on anything you have no experience in to people who have experience there.
He was speculating and querying, not just commenting. His post was posed as a question.
bem401
01-05-2011, 04:52 AM
Jack didn't say that his expectations were justified. He was using the term "ironic" fairly loosely. As yoda said about his own posts, Jack was not posting a legal brief or a dissertation. I think the intended meaning of Jack's post was fairly clear, even if it is not carefully articulated. You are taking him too much to task for the careful wording of his post. The fact is that you and yoda read something into his post which clearly was not said in it and instead of admitting error you started picking apart the literal reading of his post in an overly technical manner to try to make your reading fit.
The whole point being made was this was a topic customers ought not debate because none of them ever walked in a dancer's shoes, figuratively speaking. I wasn't so much being critical of what was being said but rather that customers thought themselves qualified to comment at all.
bem401
01-05-2011, 04:58 AM
No, that's the same site I linked to, and it does not list incongruous as a synonym; it merely uses the word "incongruous" in one of the definitions. Not the same thing. Look again.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
On that page, look in the left hand column under "synonyms". What's the first one listed?
Hopper
01-05-2011, 05:31 AM
^ You are right there, but some or all of the other words in that list don't look like exact synonyms.
bem401
01-05-2011, 05:40 AM
^ You are right there, but some or all of the other words in that list don't look like exact synonyms.
Point taken, but the only word I used was "incongruous" and i took it to mean (post #132) "doesn't make sense". This is the only way I intended "ironic" or "unjustified" to be taken.
Hopper
01-05-2011, 05:46 AM
^That's clearly not what Jack intended "ironic" to mean.
KS_Stevia
01-05-2011, 06:40 AM
I like a lot of what you have to say Hopper, and agree with some of the hard, ugly truth. My mom tells me this all the time. I'll be 34 next month and have felt the effects of aging and a lowered self-confidence about getting a proper mate. My career is awesome, life is wonderful, so there are other aspects to balance it out.
This year was the first time a man I went on a date with made a comment on my weight and a comment on my age (too old for him, he was only 3 years younger than me). So....I feel it man, I feel it. During my 20's, partied like a rock star with rock stars worldwide. But I also put things into place to have a career and a positive social network to fall back on.
The only thing that remains is my mate. And NOW, I want to wait because I need to get myself back to the illusion of youth and vitality to attract a quality one. The one I have is a broken rodeo bull and I'm just sitting on him because I'm too lazy to find a chair. ;)
More later, worky time!
bem401
01-05-2011, 07:57 AM
^That's clearly not what Jack intended "ironic" to mean.
Seemed to me he was opining that he found dancers' reactions incongruous to him, but perhaps I misunderstood.
The irony (incongruity) I saw involved customers (who are a if not the major source of dancer stress) weighing in on how dancers should or should not react to the things they do.
yoda57us
01-05-2011, 08:12 AM
If children are the issue, you can adopt. Only problem there is that the man may want to continue his line by having children of his own.
So now you are telling women that they can simply ignore their desire to procreate? It's only a problem if the man doesn't get what he wants-a chance to carry on his blood line.
Have you ever actually talked to a woman who was trying to have a baby about this? Adoption is a wonderful thing. I have a very close friend who adopted a few years ago and she, her husband and the child couldn't be more of a family. That does not however erase the mental anguish she went through for the years that she was trying to conceive a child. A man's bloodline is not the only problem.
princessjas
01-05-2011, 08:14 AM
I wonder what percentage of guys think they can buy a dancers/womans love? Thinking that the more they spend she will some day realize "wow he's spending a lot of money on me he must really like me, i'm going to date him now!"
lol
Hey, you can totally buy my love! I'm sure I'd feel it after yanno....bout 30-40 CR, or just a large cash infusion. I'd be so happy, I'm entirely sure I'd forget that I don't believe in love and would follow you around like a lost puppy. }:D
jack0177057
01-05-2011, 09:30 AM
Unfortunately many men think that once a woman gets older she's less attractive. Many men datingwise think that because a woman is 40 she doesn't want kids or can't have them. This is wrong of course because women can be naturally fertile until mid's and some much later, while many younger women aren't fertile at all.
Agreed, that's why I emphasized large family - like four kids. A 40 year old woman could easily have one or two children - no problem. (This is becoming very common, as more and more women decide to develop their careers before starting a family.) She might even be able to have four children in quick succession, but that's probably not a good idea, unless she can afford a live-in nanny to help her.
jack0177057
01-05-2011, 09:32 AM
Hey, you can totally buy my love! I'm sure I'd feel it after yanno....bout 30-40 CR, or just a large cash infusion. I'd be so happy, I'm entirely sure I'd forget that I don't believe in love and would follow you around like a lost puppy. }:D
Do you take payment plans spread out over 15 years?
jack0177057
01-05-2011, 09:43 AM
Seemed to me he was opining that he found dancers' reactions incongruous to him, but perhaps I misunderstood.
First you were trying to interpret my statement beyond the literal text (as if I were a prophet with deep hidden meaning beyond the literal text)...
Now you are shamelessly replacing my words with your own - to twist my statements. I'm glad Hopper is paying attention and calling you on it.
For the last time, "ironic" means (at least the way I use it, and many other people use it) a condition or outcome that is the opposite of what you would expect to occur or be true.
Again, my post was -
"That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case."
Read the last sentence again... and again... and again...
If I intended to say that something was incongruous, I would have used the word "incongruous" and not the word "ironic". Clearly, looking at the last sentence quoted above, I was using "ironic" in regards to my expectations, not to tell people how they should be feeling.
Furthermore, this post was actually a question - very first sentence: "why do dancers have low self-esteem?" - which KS_Stevia answered.
bem401
01-05-2011, 10:40 AM
it.
For the last time, "ironic" means (at least the way I use it, and many other people use it) a condition or outcome that is the opposite of what you would expect to occur or be true.
Again, my post was -
"That's what's ironic - why do dancers have low self-esteem? Guys are worshiping them and spending tons of money on them - They are getting hit on by hundreds of guys a week (granted, many of those guys are disgusting, but a few are probably not too bad).
I would expect Jessie_tinydancer's confident/conceited attitude to be more prevalent, but sadly, that's not the case."
Read the last sentence again... and again... and again...
Basically, you're saying you don't understand why they are reacting the way they are to the attention they are getting. In other words, their reactions are incongruous to you. Or at least they were until KS posted her comment.
jack0177057
01-05-2011, 11:10 AM
^ No.
Redwolf
01-05-2011, 12:42 PM
How about starting a different thread to argue about the difference between irony and incongruity?
Kellydancer
01-05-2011, 03:32 PM
Agreed, that's why I emphasized large family - like four kids. A 40 year old woman could easily have one or two children - no problem. (This is becoming very common, as more and more women decide to develop their careers before starting a family.) She might even be able to have four children in quick succession, but that's probably not a good idea, unless she can afford a live-in nanny to help her.
Yep, in fact the highest growing number of women having babies is early 40's, though I've known many years ago who had kids this late, including my great grandparents. While there is a higher risk later in life, it's not as bad as people think. My doctor in fact that I could probably have a kid or two still naturally and an added benefit of being older is the strong likelihood of twins. She said that the biological clock ramps up in the early 40's because of menopause coming eventually. Add in that twins run in my family anyway (and long suspicion that I was a twin) so it's very possible that I'll have kids at 42 or 43 and they'll be twins. Besides, in this day and age with technology there are women past menopause having babies, while many younger women are infertile. Not to mention how many people actually want a large family? Hard to support 2 kids, let alone 6 or more.
Kellydancer
01-05-2011, 03:44 PM
I like a lot of what you have to say Hopper, and agree with some of the hard, ugly truth. My mom tells me this all the time. I'll be 34 next month and have felt the effects of aging and a lowered self-confidence about getting a proper mate. My career is awesome, life is wonderful, so there are other aspects to balance it out.
This year was the first time a man I went on a date with made a comment on my weight and a comment on my age (too old for him, he was only 3 years younger than me). So....I feel it man, I feel it. During my 20's, partied like a rock star with rock stars worldwide. But I also put things into place to have a career and a positive social network to fall back on.
The only thing that remains is my mate. And NOW, I want to wait because I need to get myself back to the illusion of youth and vitality to attract a quality one. The one I have is a broken rodeo bull and I'm just sitting on him because I'm too lazy to find a chair. ;)
More later, worky time!
Some of what Hopper says is right, but some is off, and some of it is blaming the wrong sources. While yes women were valued for their bodies for childbearing this isn't always the case now.
What I do disagree with Hopper about though is that men can get younger women. So many men think that a 40 year old single man is in demand and he can attract a 25 year old. The reality is that there are far more single men in the late 30's-mid 40's range than there are single women. Also, there are more single women with kids in that range than dads. Men think they can date young, but unless they are good looking or rich I have a better chance of dating young than he does. I was surprised myself until I started investigating. I will say though that my mom too used to tell me to find a mate because as I aged there would be less. Having said that, if women are looking for a certain type of guy it narrows it. I am looking for a never married childless man and there are still a few around, especially since I live near a major city. I've known several men who married for the first time in their 40's and know a few women too. However, the reality is though that to get a man like this I had to let go of the idea of a handsome man. Most of the good looking men by this age have either been married or are still players. I know there are still good looking men at this age, but far easier to find childless men than a handsome man.
However the hard truth is that women are judge more harshly based on looks. Women, especially large women, have a hard time in jobs.
jack0177057
01-05-2011, 05:54 PM
^ Some older men may be able to get younger women with "daddy issues", but I agree that, generally, an older man dating a young lady (more than 15 years younger) is either rich or powerful (or both).
This is an artificial relationship - a more subtle type of pay-to-play situation. Its only different because it is exclusive (if she's honest) and his payments are made indirectly and spread out, i.e., instead of paying her cash immediately before or after sex, he provides her a nice opulent home in an affluent neighborhood and lavishes her with nice things on a continuous basis.
If he understands this and is okay with it, its all good for both parties. However, if he thinks she actually loves him, and would stand by him no matter what,... he's a PL very much like SC PL's who think "she really loves me!"
Almost Jaded
01-05-2011, 09:06 PM
What exactly do you mean by "rip off" and "screw over'? Do you mean expressly agree to something and not deliver? Or just lead men to believe something and not deliver? Or just manipulate them into spending more using pretense/fantasy? Talk him into buying something he doesn't want?
All that and much, much - and I mean a LOT - more, lol.
Kellydancer
01-05-2011, 11:26 PM
^ Some older men may be able to get younger women with "daddy issues", but I agree that, generally, an older man dating a young lady (more than 15 years younger) is either rich or powerful (or both).
This is an artificial relationship - a more subtle type of pay-to-play situation. Its only different because it is exclusive (if she's honest) and his payments are made indirectly and spread out, i.e., instead of paying her cash immediately before or after sex, he provides her a nice opulent home in an affluent neighborhood and lavishes her with nice things on a continuous basis.
If he understands this and is okay with it, its all good for both parties. However, if he thinks she actually loves him, and would stand by him no matter what,... he's a PL very much like SC PL's who think "she really loves me!"
Agreed to all of the above. I don't understand why many men think that they can get a much younger woman but the most boring men possible (talking guys with little money and no looks) try. I often lurk at online sites and see all these average and below average men trying to get 18-25's. Then these guys wonder why they are still single. I've actually been told I should date 55+. What would I have in common with a guy only a few years younger than my dad?
When I was younger I dated a few older men but it was mostly because at the time I was mature and the guys my age weren't. However, when I started dancing most of my regulars were much older. I've had people think because of that these guys were my regular boyfriends. This of course was a lie because these were guys I never dated, or slept with, or even kissed. If they weren't paying me I never would have danced for them. As I stated earlier I dated only one customer and he is 3 1/2 years older than me, and not wealthy. This kind of guy for me wasn't usually a regular.
Hopper
01-06-2011, 12:10 AM
So now you are telling women that they can simply ignore their desire to procreate? It's only a problem if the man doesn't get what he wants-a chance to carry on his blood line.
I was of course only suggesting that for cases in which the woman cannot procreate. It was in the context of men not wanting to marry a woman in her 40s out of fear she cannot or doesn't wish to, which is why I mentioned the male's wish to continue his line.
Have you ever actually talked to a woman who was trying to have a baby about this? Adoption is a wonderful thing. I have a very close friend who adopted a few years ago and she, her husband and the child couldn't be more of a family. That does not however erase the mental anguish she went through for the years that she was trying to conceive a child. A man's bloodline is not the only problem.
Again, I was talking about it from the male side because Kellydancer was talking about reasons men may not wish to marry 40+ women.
If ever you think the intended meaning of my posts is unclear, please feel free to ask.
Hopper
01-06-2011, 12:23 AM
Basically, you're saying you don't understand why they are reacting the way they are to the attention they are getting. In other words, their reactions are incongruous to you. Or at least they were until KS posted her comment.
He didn't say they were incongruous, at best he was implying that they appeared incongruous and was asking for the reason behind it. KS_Stevia resolved it, and that's where it should have ended. Because you and yoda misread him, it did not.
Hopper
01-06-2011, 03:02 AM
I'm glad Hopper is paying attention and calling you on it.
By calling it when it happens to somebody else I might avoid having it happen to me.
Hopper
01-06-2011, 04:59 AM
Yep, in fact the highest growing number of women having babies is early 40's...
Probably because the number of women not having babies before their early forties is growing.
Some of what Hopper says is right, but some is off, and some of it is blaming the wrong sources. While yes women were valued for their bodies for childbearing this isn't always the case now.
I did not mean that women were chosen for their bodies according to their apparent childbearing ability. I said that women were chosen according to their sexual desirability (which is not all about their bodies) and after marriage became valued as wives and mothers (not "childbearers"). In fact, this misconception of married life for women is a big part of why women are not getting married while still young today. (I should have explicitly stated that in my original post.) That conception of wives and mothers is cynical, shallow, unimaginative and derogatory. It is this popular image of married women as being a lifeless drudge and incubator which hides from many single women the happiness and self-worth which they could have as a wife and mother.
The reason being a wife and mother is not attractive to young women these days is because the rewarding and valuable things about that role are not emphasized. The role of wife and mother is not thought to have any substantial, intrinsic worth. They cook, clean, shop, change nappies and drive the kids to school etc. and if they also have paid jobs, their husbands probably share all that anyway. The usual media images of wives/mothers are along the lines of: subjugated, boring drudge; dull, frumpy, battle-axe; idealized, one-dimensional, prim-and-proper doll; harried, zany neurotic etc. All very superficial, cold and uninspiring - and nothing at all to do with what wives and mothers are supposed to do.
In times now long past, wives and mothers were respected, valued, intelligent, creative and caring. Matriarchs even. I have met these women; they are not fictional idealizations from an antiquated tradition. I recall being in the home of one such elderly lady with the family of one of her daughters who were visiting (i.e. her daughter and son-in-law, their adult children and their children's children - four generations). A little old lady who sat in an armchair in the the corner with a blanket over her, but who commanded the whole room. What will today's "independent, sassy, sexy and savvy gal" command at that age? A pet cat, martini and TV set most likely.
We already see popular films ("chick flicks") and books about such women in their mid-to-later years, apparently produced to anesthetize the victims (so that they never wake up to what is happening) as well as exploit them as a market in doing so. Sometimes they have happy but unrealistic endings, sometimes they make it look like an adventure (because it's a movie).
What I do disagree with Hopper about though is that men can get younger women.So many men think that a 40 year old single man is in demand and he can attract a 25 year old. The reality is that there are far more single men in the late 30's-mid 40's range than there are single women. Also, there are more single women with kids in that range than dads. Men think they can date young, but unless they are good looking or rich I have a better chance of dating young than he does. I was surprised myself until I started investigating. I will say though that my mom too used to tell me to find a mate because as I aged there would be less. Having said that, if women are looking for a certain type of guy it narrows it. I am looking for a never married childless man and there are still a few around, especially since I live near a major city. I've known several men who married for the first time in their 40's and know a few women too. However, the reality is though that to get a man like this I had to let go of the idea of a handsome man. Most of the good looking men by this age have either been married or are still players. I know there are still good looking men at this age, but far easier to find childless men than a handsome man.
However the hard truth is that women are judge more harshly based on looks. Women, especially large women, have a hard time in jobs.
I didn't really mean to assume the first bit, though I don't know what the case actually is. But since women are judged on looks, they are at a disadvantage in finding a mate the older they get past a certain age.
Hopper
01-06-2011, 04:59 AM
^ Some older men may be able to get younger women with "daddy issues", but I agree that, generally, an older man dating a young lady (more than 15 years younger) is either rich or powerful (or both).
This is an artificial relationship - a more subtle type of pay-to-play situation. Its only different because it is exclusive (if she's honest) and his payments are made indirectly and spread out, i.e., instead of paying her cash immediately before or after sex, he provides her a nice opulent home in an affluent neighborhood and lavishes her with nice things on a continuous basis.
If he understands this and is okay with it, its all good for both parties. However, if he thinks she actually loves him, and would stand by him no matter what,... he's a PL very much like SC PL's who think "she really loves me!"
Or he has charm, character and vitality even in his middle and later years. Some men are like this. They don't truly age. That's the way it should be.
And then there is the "hot older guys in suits" fetish, which has a whole thread dedicated to it on this site.
http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?t=146374&highlight=hot+older
Neither category are "PLs".
Hopper
01-06-2011, 05:04 AM
All that and much, much - and I mean a LOT - more, lol.
This would make an interesting thread. However, I don't think this kind of thing could work on me - not to any serious financial gain for the dancer. I'm there for just one thing (a naked girl) and if that's not forthcoming in the first dance, there are no more dances.
Almost Jaded
01-06-2011, 07:01 AM
A lot of guys here probably think they would never be talked into a 4 digit tip on top of the VIP room, all paid in advance. And many of "us" probably wouldn't be. But you'd be SHOCKED how many guys can and are when dealing with a girl that is as shockingly beautiful and as fiercely charming and forward as this girl is. I've been in sales almost as long as she's been alive, trained others and managed whole floors. And on my best days I have 10% of the skills this chick has through sheer natural drive and natural intuition.
I once watched her tell a guy who had just turned her down exactly how much he was capable of spending (which was 3.5x what he budgeted for the night and he laughed and told her so) and that he was going to spend it. He laughed at her, and rudely. 2 hours later, as he stepped out of the VIP with another dancer that he hadn't intended to buy, she was waiting. Asked the dancer he walked out with - right in front of him - if he'd spent the 700 dollars she'd told her he was good for. The other girl laughed and said yes, to the penny, and handed this girl her "cut" for the tipoff right in front of him. She looked at him, winked, and told him to have a good night. Watching the reality of the situation sink in across his expression was something to behold, lol. She had told the other girl exactly how to approach hi, what to say, and what to charge him - and it worked, and she'd even called what he had available on his debit card to within $20. No joke.
yoda57us
01-06-2011, 09:00 AM
If ever you think the intended meaning of my posts is unclear, please feel free to ask.
My comment was my way of asking. I think that's part of the back and forth that drives any chat board.
yoda57us
01-06-2011, 09:08 AM
Because you and yoda misread him, it did not.
No, you agreed with him, we did not. There is a difference.
Misreading or misunderstanding a post is not really a valid argument on a chat board. You post what you post. We all read it and react in whatever way we react. I don't view disagreement as a bad thing in this venue. A chat board is constant back and forth among the participants. Debate and disagreement are what makes it all interesting. As long as it doesn't degenerate into personal insults it's all good...sometimes inane and picayune, but good.
jack0177057
01-06-2011, 01:21 PM
A lot of guys here probably think they would never be talked into a 4 digit tip on top of the VIP room, all paid in advance. And many of "us" probably wouldn't be.
It depends on many variables. Where I am in my life right now, I wouldn't spend more than $150 on a dancer, even if she was Angelina Jolie. I'm in a healthy and happy relationship and I only go to the SC (once every 1 or 2 months) for entertainment and to satisfy my itch for "variety".
But, have I had moments of vulnerability and loneliness in my life, when a stunning dancer (or any stunningly gorgeous woman for that matter) could have taken me for a ride?.... Maybe.
I don't think the best "hustlers" (or worst - depending on how you look at it) have jedi mind powers. Obviously, they are hot and have mastered the "Art of Seduction", but most importantly,... I believe they have an excellent ability to spot the guy that is at his low point - lonely and insecure, in a "loveless" marriage, hasn't had sex in a year, recently widowed, a 40-year old virgin, etc. -- and they are ruthless in leading him on. (This is the equivalent of the "player" or "pick up artist" preying on women with low self-esteem issues.)
jack0177057
01-06-2011, 01:25 PM
No, you agreed with him, we did not. There is a difference.
Guys... It doesn't matter anymore, five pages of this is enough!... Let's all get along and move on.
(I didn't actually count the pages, but please -- no debate about how many actual pages.)
Kellydancer
01-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Probably because the number of women not having babies before their early forties is growing.
Very true and this has both advantages and disadvantages. I personally didn't want babies before 35. I was too career obsessed.
I did not mean that women were chosen for their bodies according to their apparent childbearing ability. I said that women were chosen according to their sexual desirability (which is not all about their bodies) and after marriage became valued as wives and mothers (not "childbearers"). In fact, this misconception of married life for women is a big part of why women are not getting married while still young today. (I should have explicitly stated that in my original post.) That conception of wives and mothers is cynical, shallow, unimaginative and derogatory. It is this popular image of married women as being a lifeless drudge and incubator which hides from many single women the happiness and self-worth which they could have as a wife and mother.
The reason being a wife and mother is not attractive to young women these days is because the rewarding and valuable things about that role are not emphasized. The role of wife and mother is not thought to have any substantial, intrinsic worth. They cook, clean, shop, change nappies and drive the kids to school etc. and if they also have paid jobs, their husbands probably share all that anyway. The usual media images of wives/mothers are along the lines of: subjugated, boring drudge; dull, frumpy, battle-axe; idealized, one-dimensional, prim-and-proper doll; harried, zany neurotic etc. All very superficial, cold and uninspiring - and nothing at all to do with what wives and mothers are supposed to do.
In times now long past, wives and mothers were respected, valued, intelligent, creative and caring. Matriarchs even. I have met these women; they are not fictional idealizations from an antiquated tradition. I recall being in the home of one such elderly lady with the family of one of her daughters who were visiting (i.e. her daughter and son-in-law, their adult children and their children's children - four generations). A little old lady who sat in an armchair in the the corner with a blanket over her, but who commanded the whole room. What will today's "independent", "sassy, sexy and savvy" gal command at that age? A pet cat, martini and TV set most likely.
We already see popular films ("chick flicks") and books about such women in their mid-to-later years, apparently produced to anesthetize the victims (so that they never wake up to what is happening) as well as exploit them as a market in doing so. Sometimes they have happy but unrealistic endings, sometimes they make it look like an adventure (because it's a movie).
I am glad we live in a time where women have choices. Do I care that a woman decides to stay at home? As long as I'm not paying I don't care. However, the reality is it does hurt her future prospects. What if her husband dumps her or abuses her then what? In the past when women had no career they had no choice except to stay. I am glad that women don't have to be pushed into a role. Not all women liked being pressured to be housewives. I personally would hate it. I don't idolize a housewife more than I would a career woman because to me it's all about choice.
Btw, I've noticed something about the whole housewife debate which I find interesting. Men who were raised by housewives think more about them. For instance, every guy I dated with a working mom felt women should work. Those with stay at home moms wanted the same. The guy I want had a mom with a great job and he feels women should work full time and both people should do housework. He knows how to vacuum, wash clothes, etc. Men I've dated with housewife mom really didn't know that. One guy I knew (guyfriend) bought his own house but refused to learn how to cook because 'that's woman's work'. Needless to say he married a woman who's only interest is being a wife and mother.
Yes women were chosen for their bodies, just not always ways we realized. For instance women who were unable to bear children were often either divorced right away or never married in many cases. I've heard several horror stories of men getting another woman pregnant then wanting their wife to raise it.
I didn't really mean to assume the first bit, though I don't know what the case actually is. But since women are judged on looks, they are at a disadvantage in finding a mate the older they get past a certain age.
Everyone is judged by looks in the mate selection. Most of the women I know who are fit for example would never accept a fat man as a mate. Yet for some reason men seem to think being men they can be slobs while getting hot wives. That only happens on tv or the movies. The only times when men really can date younger are the cases where he's good looking or has money. Yes, I've seen 40+ men in those cases date younger. The average or below average man at that age is actually at a disadvantage because there is something like 3 guys for every woman at that age. Just go to an online dating site or a singles group and you will see several men and not many women. Yet men are fed this line that women don't judge on looks or that single men can choose who they can when it's not true. The only exception is that as everyone ages this is true. I can't remember when women actually outnumber men but I want to say after 60 or so. The average age for marriage is going up and expected to hit mid thirties very soon. In big cities the average age for first marriage is really going up and I think we will eventually see it hit late 30's-early 40's very soon. I know for me personally almost everyone I know got married in their early 30's up to mid 40's.
bem401
01-06-2011, 01:58 PM
By calling it when it happens to somebody else I might avoid having it happen to me.
Calling what when it happens to whom? I've no interest in torturing myself by trying to track down the statement you quoted so I' suggest we just drop it. The most convincing evidence I can offer that there was a problem with what he wrote (or the way he wrote it) is that Yoda and I are basically in agreement on things and we seldom are.
yoda57us
01-06-2011, 02:10 PM
Guys... It doesn't matter anymore, five pages of this is enough!... Let's all get along and move on.
(I didn't actually count the pages, but please -- no debate about how many actual pages.)
Ha! You've created a monster Jack. You can't control it. You can stop feeding it but it will still keep growing....Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!
I would have guessed six pages...
jack0177057
01-06-2011, 02:54 PM
^... I created that monster???? I'll bite my tongue for the sake of peace on Earth and good will toward men (and dancers)...
I'm too lazy to count pages... I'll agree to six.
yoda57us
01-06-2011, 03:00 PM
^ It wasn't intended as blame Jack. I'm thanking you. It's been very entertaining...
Hopper
01-07-2011, 12:45 AM
A lot of guys here probably think they would never be talked into a 4 digit tip on top of the VIP room, all paid in advance. And many of "us" probably wouldn't be. But you'd be SHOCKED how many guys can and are when dealing with a girl that is as shockingly beautiful and as fiercely charming and forward as this girl is. I've been in sales almost as long as she's been alive, trained others and managed whole floors. And on my best days I have 10% of the skills this chick has through sheer natural drive and natural intuition.
I once watched her tell a guy who had just turned her down exactly how much he was capable of spending (which was 3.5x what he budgeted for the night and he laughed and told her so) and that he was going to spend it. He laughed at her, and rudely. 2 hours later, as he stepped out of the VIP with another dancer that he hadn't intended to buy, she was waiting. Asked the dancer he walked out with - right in front of him - if he'd spent the 700 dollars she'd told her he was good for. The other girl laughed and said yes, to the penny, and handed this girl her "cut" for the tipoff right in front of him. She looked at him, winked, and told him to have a good night. Watching the reality of the situation sink in across his expression was something to behold, lol. She had told the other girl exactly how to approach hi, what to say, and what to charge him - and it worked, and she'd even called what he had available on his debit card to within $20. No joke.
I don't see how that is cheating, just good sales and good product. As far as I can tell from this post the guy got whatever he paid for - he just bought more of it than he originally planned to.
Hopper
01-07-2011, 04:10 AM
Very true and this has both advantages and disadvantages. I personally didn't want babies before 35. I was too career obsessed.
I am glad we live in a time where women have choices. Do I care that a woman decides to stay at home? As long as I'm not paying I don't care.
They should have choices and not be misled or misinformed about their options.
I don't know why other people would have to pay for wives to stay at home. Except that feminists have long called for women to be paid wages by the government, with our money.
http://business.highbeam.com/5449/article-1G1-92724019/wages-housework-movement-and-numbers-woman-work-home
However, the reality is it does hurt her future prospects. What if her husband dumps her or abuses her then what? In the past when women had no career they had no choice except to stay. I am glad that women don't have to be pushed into a role. Not all women liked being pressured to be housewives. I personally would hate it. I don't idolize a housewife more than I would a career woman because to me it's all about choice.
If a married woman is dumped she can't stay. If she is dumped or abused, he divorces her or she divorces him and she receives alimony and child support, and often a good share of the assets. She can also get a job. There have always been charities which took in women in financial difficulty and for decades now they have had access to state welfare. But if a woman works while married, she does not have to have a career to be economically independent of her husband. Most husbands don't have careers. All she really needs is a wage job. If she wants a career, she can have that, but a career is something a person devotes himself to out of a calling or some other ambition (perhaps just wealth), not for mere economic security.
And then there is the "wages for housewives" movement.
I'm not talking about women being pressured into being housewives. I am talking about women forgetting the value and reward of being married and being mothers, neither of which require being a housewife; though my own opinion is that being a housewife is ideal.
Btw, I've noticed something about the whole housewife debate which I find interesting. Men who were raised by housewives think more about them. For instance, every guy I dated with a working mom felt women should work. Those with stay at home moms wanted the same. The guy I want had a mom with a great job and he feels women should work full time and both people should do housework. He knows how to vacuum, wash clothes, etc. Men I've dated with housewife mom really didn't know that. One guy I knew (guyfriend) bought his own house but refused to learn how to cook because 'that's woman's work'. Needless to say he married a woman who's only interest is being a wife and mother.
Not surprising that a man would take on the values of his parents, especially the parent he was attached to from his earliest age; and be inclined toward the arrangement he lived within from birth. Both of those are a strong influence on adult mindset. Add the fact that a man raised by a working mother probably has no idea of what a good housewife does; and therefore would see no value in that role. However, sometimes the next generation rebels instead, if their home life was not ideal and they find reasons to be attracted to the alternative.
Cooking and cleaning are not solely "women's work". Men in the military are trained to do both. Men cook and clean professionally. If a man lives alone, before marrying, then he has to cook and clean his house (or hire a maid). By "woman's work" is meant that in a family, it is economically more advantageous for the wife to stay home and tend the house and provide meals while the husband earns the income (i.e a division of labor) and also that these are types of work which women innately are more disposed or inclined toward than men. I'll be called a sexist for that last comment (it's a conditioned knee-jerk response), but it is most women's experience. I shared a house with a radical feminist activist for a year and I can tell you she liked cleaning, cooking and decorating as much as any woman and far more than I did. I never said anything to her about it, but she behaved like a typical housewife. Despite the transformation in her thinking, she was still quite "traditionally" feminine in every way, because it is innate to women.
Yes women were chosen for their bodies, just not always ways we realized. For instance women who were unable to bear children were often either divorced right away or never married in many cases. I've heard several horror stories of men getting another woman pregnant then wanting their wife to raise it.
I know women were chosen for their bodies, but after marriage a woman comes to be valued for other things by her husband and chldren. And yes childbearing ability had a lot to do with them being chosen (as well as for being valued after their marriage), because the reason most people married at all was to start a family, because to have a family the parents have to stay together. (If you don't want a family, you may as well fuck whomever you like your whole life until your are too old.) That is the reason why women also did not wish to marry men who were not virile - it didn't only go one way. If a man or woman wanted a family, they would need a partner they could procreate with. I have heard of wives who got pregnant by other men if their husbands couldn't do it. (Remember that awful Heart song from the early 90s?) Sometimes a surrogate is used with consent of both spouses. However, a man and woman don't have to procreate in order to have a family. If a man finds a woman he is attracted to and who would be a good wife and mother, but cannot conceive, he might be prepared to adopt.
Everyone is judged by looks in the mate selection. Most of the women I know who are fit for example would never accept a fat man as a mate. Yet for some reason men seem to think being men they can be slobs while getting hot wives. That only happens on tv or the movies.
I'd never try that, but I have often seen fat guys who have nice-looking girlfriends.
The only times when men really can date younger are the cases where he's good looking or has money. Yes, I've seen 40+ men in those cases date younger. The average or below average man at that age is actually at a disadvantage because there is something like 3 guys for every woman at that age.
A below-average-looking/wealthy male is at a disadvantage at any age, all other things being equal.
Just go to an online dating site or a singles group and you will see several men and not many women. Yet men are fed this line that women don't judge on looks or that single men can choose who they can when it's not true.
It goes against all casual observation to think that women do not care at all about how a man looks. But I think that looks are ranked lower by women than by men with other qualities which determine attraction. But all other things being equal, a man is delusional if he thinks he can choose who he likes if he is less good looking than other men.
The only exception is that as everyone ages this is true. I can't remember when women actually outnumber men but I want to say after 60 or so. The average age for marriage is going up and expected to hit mid thirties very soon. In big cities the average age for first marriage is really going up and I think we will eventually see it hit late 30's-early 40's very soon. I know for me personally almost everyone I know got married in their early 30's up to mid 40's.
Or there could be a backlash.
Hopper
01-07-2011, 04:24 AM
My comment was my way of asking. I think that's part of the back and forth that drives any chat board.
It sounded like you were criticizing. I'll have to remember that. It is still easier for me to clarify what I said than to correct what you say about it. If you'd just read it properly in the first place neither would be necessary. One person's sloppiness means more work for others.
No, you agreed with him, we did not. There is a difference.
Misreading or misunderstanding a post is not really a valid argument on a chat board. You post what you post. We all read it and react in whatever way we react. I don't view disagreement as a bad thing in this venue. A chat board is constant back and forth among the participants. Debate and disagreement are what makes it all interesting. As long as it doesn't degenerate into personal insults it's all good...sometimes inane and picayune, but good.
I don't view disagreement as a bad thing either. It's just that in order to disagree with somebody, first you have to know what he actually said. Correction of somebody else's misreading/misunderstanding is a valid and necessary when arguing anywhere. It is impossible to debate at all if people don't even comprehend what others say. Debate is more than just a series of back-and-forth "reactions" - there needs to be proper communication. If not, then it is not interesting, it is tedious. There is enough "reaction" and disagreement when people do understand what others are saying. We don't need to make it more "interesting" by throwing in sloppy reading.
Calling what when it happens to whom? I've no interest in torturing myself by trying to track down the statement you quoted so I' suggest we just drop it. The most convincing evidence I can offer that there was a problem with what he wrote (or the way he wrote it) is that Yoda and I are basically in agreement on things and we seldom are.
Calling somebody out who criticises another person unfairly. That is an odd coincidence, enough to make me question whether Jack really did say what you claim he did; but I did question it and I still disagreed. Two people agreeing does not make somebody else wrong, even if they usually don't like agreeing. What makes somebody wrong is errors in their statements.
Ha! You've created a monster Jack. You can't control it. You can stop feeding it but it will still keep growing....Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!
I would have guessed six pages...
^ It wasn't intended as blame Jack. I'm thanking you. It's been very entertaining...
Thanking him for it, blaming him for it - both imply that he caused it.
Almost Jaded
01-07-2011, 05:00 AM
That story was an example of excellent saleswomanship, not of a ripoff. I don't share those stories - some of them are bad enough to make one consider whether or not it'd be an arrestable offense, lol. Let's just say that guys dumb enough to get passing out drunk or to ask her for drugs (funny things happen when you think you're snorting coke and it's a couple of ground up sleeping pills) are likely to find quite a surprise on their next CC statement.
However, talking a guy into a 1,000 or more dollar tip on top of the room, paid upfront, for a 1/2 hour VIP in which he's lucky if she even dances (extras in her book is making contact, lol) or does more than remove her top is par for the course with her. I mean almost nightly, sometimes several times a night. Is that "ripping a guy off"? It's not actually theft, but very few customers leave feeling they got their money's worth, lol.
What I really don't get is that she has regulars. She treats them like shit and they never get anything from her - the one that got ANY OTC contact took her out to dinner occasionally but she wouldn't even hold his hand - spent literally tens of thousands and into the hundreds of thousands of dollars on her.
:shrug: