View Full Version : Woman threatens to cut off husbands wee wee for visiting titty bars
Kisca
05-08-2011, 08:17 PM
Interesting AJ. Now I'm going to avoid taking my lead from a fringe group website, but I'm curious - which less westernized societies might you be referring to? Russia or the other former Soviet states? China? Eastern Europe? African tribal areas?
I am truly curious to know where males are so free with their mates that they do not feel territorial urges to prevent other guys from trying to fuck them. :)
Dude, where'd you get Russia out of your statement? The family and marriage values are strong there. Sure some of them are drunken fucks but most are very loyal to family and their wives.
rickdugan
05-08-2011, 08:22 PM
^^^ Dude seriously?
First, don't knock it 'til you try it. Second, what gives you the impression that you have the right to judge?
AJ might know a little more about it, considering that he has to defend his stance, since it's a minority view, in our monogamy-centric society. Either way, he's probably done his homework. ;) I'm not suggesting that you take his word at face-value and accept that as gospel truth...
Either you're right or you're not. Either way, it's really not that serious.
LOL.
Mindy, as I made clear earlier in this thread, I'm not knocking how he lives at all. In fact, I've had a few 2 girl experiences myself and they were a lot of fun. For all I care, AJ and MM can do a 3-some with anyone they want or even a farm animal for that matter, at least so long as the farm animal consents. ;)
AJ took a position that the territorial behaviors of men as they relate to females are learned behaviors rather than instinctive and I am challenging that position, no more and no less. Who's really right here? Who knows, but I'm finding that it makes for interesting discussion fodder.
AJ's a big boy and can speak for himself, unless of course you actually have something substantive to add. But if you just don't like the tone of my comments, then too bad. :P
rickdugan
05-08-2011, 08:26 PM
Dude, where'd you get Russia out of your statement? The family and marriage values are strong there. Sure some of them are drunken fucks but most are very loyal to family and their wives.
Exactly my point Kisca - read the previous comments and you'll get the context of my question.
Kisca
05-08-2011, 08:32 PM
^ Oh ok.. I was just skimming through.. Didnt read it all. Nevermind then! Im iffy today.. Continue on... :)
AngelKing
05-08-2011, 09:44 PM
I think the guy in that news article lost his balls sometime around when he called the cops on his lady anyhow.
Almost Jaded
05-09-2011, 02:39 AM
LOL @ AngelKing
Mindy & others - Rick isn't condemning me & mine or our lifestyle, hes debating me. And he's pretty darn good at it. Something, I might add, that I appreciate given recent events in this very thread.
His comment about Russia, China, etc, was a tongue-in-cheek way to point out that I said "westernized" instead of "industrialized" (my mistake, two thought trains running too close together as I was writing). It is primarily western media that is found to propagate the effect in question, in cultures found in less industrialized areas (though to be fair, most industrialized nations these days are almost completely "westernized", including both China and Russia).
His method of response also allows for gauging the others' response; either I get defensive and miss his point (score one for Rick), or I catch it and see the humor in it (tie) and the conversation continues. I extrapolate all of this from his use of emoticons, which he uses exactly the same way I do. :D
I think I should like to debate this Rick Dugan person on all kinds of things, lol.
And Mindy - while Googling "polygamous cultures" would land some good results, it would only land you those where multiple wives are the norm, whilst missing all the cultures that practiced polyandry (multiple husbands) or various other forms of non-monogamy.
Off to dig up some specifics for Rick...
Almost Jaded
05-09-2011, 06:07 AM
Wow. So much information in my head has been picked up here & there over time; I've never really gone on an in-depth research kick on the topic. I'm soaking up so much information it's almost over whelming.
As a result, I'm going to hold off on posting anything specific until I've put some tings together, but I can say a couple of things with certainty:
1 - I am largely wrong in my claims to lagirl that women cheat more than men. The vast majority of studies do in fact indicate that within the strictures of formal relationships, men cheat more than women.
2 - I am largely wrong in my claim that polyandry is historically almost as common as polygamy, as instances of the latter significantly outnumber the former. In my defense, regarding the reasons for this I was right on the money across the board. I still claim, however, that in the modern and predominately western polyamory movement this is not the case, and I continue to believe this.
3 - Many studies have been conducted and are being conducted on the subject of divorce rates and relationship patterns in "monogamous" cultures that are leading researchers to regard "serial monogamy" as a form of polygany. Basically, they're saying that humans as a whole are definitely NOT wired for monogamy and have found a way around socially enforced monogamy by having multiple partners in a string rather than at once. Personally, I think that's funny as hell, lol.
So far an easy and succinct summary can be found by quoting a line from the Wiki page on monogamy:
"...only approximately 17.8% (100) of 563 societies sampled in Murdock’s Atlas of World Cultures has any form of monogamy."
As for the claims that jealousy is a learned behavior, well, I'm working through this one at a time, so that will come soon. I will say that so far, preliminary results seem to back my position.
:)
rickdugan
05-09-2011, 06:26 AM
"...only approximately 17.8% (100) of 563 societies sampled in Murdock’s Atlas of World Cultures has any form of monogamy."
As for the claims that jealousy is a learned behavior, well, I'm working through this one at a time, so that will come soon. I will say that so far, preliminary results seem to back my position.
:)
Interesting. I wonder how many of those societies sampled were/are patriarchal in their polygamist tendencies? I'm guessing almost all of them, which would further support the theory of instinctive male territorialism, no? :)
But I am actually interested (no sarcasm intended) to see if you come up with anything that points to the contrary and a sincere thanks for sharing your results thus far.
Almost Jaded
05-09-2011, 06:59 AM
You are quite correct in your assumption that the majority of on-monogamous cultures are based on a polygamy (multiple wives/women) model. You may or may not be correct in your position that this is due to male territoriality; it would seem to be more a matter of fewer productive males than females due to various hazards and war. There is some debate on the topic among researchers and studies.
I am actually finding "experts", researchers, and studies on jealousy to be every bit as divided on the topic as we are, lol. Some claim a biological basis and ingrained behavior, others claim a starvation-economy developed behavior, and still others land either in between or on one of the two poles but with a different premise.
It is however well documented that male territoriality over their partners decreases as the female partners fertility declines. Interestingly, different groups do different things with this data and draw differing conclusions.
It is very nearly universally agreed (I'm paying bare lip service to the VERY few dissenters) that jealousy IS in fact a secondary emotion, though. Furthermore, jealousy stemming from and about romantic and sexual relationships in both men and women seems to be VERY culturally based, supporting a learned-behavior POV in that regard.
princessjas
05-09-2011, 03:22 PM
^^Since studies are few and far between that aren't influenced by soci-economic issues or the like, why not ask for the opinions of some poly ladies? We have actual experience with it?
IME btw, men are more territorial and much more jealous than women, but younger woman can be pretty darn close.
MissMynxx
05-09-2011, 03:49 PM
^^^ Ask Jaded what it was like when territorial-ness and jealousy reared it's head in our household when GF#2 was living here.
We were worse than a man could EVER be. Not even joking.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 03:02 AM
It is very nearly universally agreed (I'm paying bare lip service to the VERY few dissenters) that jealousy IS in fact a secondary emotion, though. Furthermore, jealousy stemming from and about romantic and sexual relationships in both men and women seems to be VERY culturally based, supporting a learned-behavior POV in that regard.
AJ, you just came back almost full circle.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Call it jealousy, territorialism, possessiveness, or whatever, but I believe that the evidence that men have protective/possessive instincts relating to their mates is stunningly overwhelming, both in current world cultures and throughout history in an almost endless variety of societies and cultures. You disagree, and no doubt will eventually unearth that current or historical culture where males sit benignly by as other males mate with their females. :)
And I wish you nothing but luck in your conditioning...er...I mean unlearning when that aforementioned 25 year old stud shows up at your door looking for MM. No doubt that the hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach will be attributable to bad societal conditioning. And don't worry about the varying degrees of trepidation, frustrated anger and painful despair that you will feel as the hours pass by while she is out. After all, these are just artificial emotions conjured by the relentless programming of an intolerant society. ;)
Almost Jaded
05-10-2011, 06:46 AM
After all, these are just artificial emotions conjured by the relentless programming of an intolerant society.
Not so much intolerant as brainwashed themselves.
At its roots, if one attributes a value to jealousy itself and overlooks that from whence it developed, jealousy is the fear of losing something you have (as opposed to envy, which is wanting what you don't have). I don't fear losing MM to said 25 year old stud. If she wishes something of or from him, so be it - she won't leave me, so there is no point to be jealous.
Jealousy is born of insecurity, plain and simple. Until we learn that someone else will take what we have, it has no foundation - a learned behavior. If I don't fear losing that thing, whether we've learned jealousy or not, there is no foundation for it.
JayATee
05-10-2011, 09:55 AM
I probably shouldn't find this funny, but... heh heh...
In that case I'm awful cause I found it hysterical. I just don't get women like this. I don't give a shit what my guy does or where he goes. If he wants to go to the clubs more power to him.
cherryblossomsinspring
05-10-2011, 10:11 AM
Sorry Djoser, I just flat out disagree with you. Why would a confident woman leave if her partner got some grinding lapdances? That seems silly. If there was deception going on, or he was spending all of their money on lapdances, that's one thing.
I went to a club on a dead Monday afternoon w my man and watched him get some naughty extras and was fine with it. In fact I ran into some old friends from another club I worked at and left him to get all kinds of extras while we caught up.
Point is, from what we've seen here, is that it cannot be defined in black and white, all grey areas.
Wait so a woman has to be confident to be ok with her bf or husband having a strange woman that he is paying to grind on his lap? That sounds like an issue with self worth right there. Now if you and your partner have accepted an "open relationship" then fine. But how many married men go to SCs have that type of relationship with their wives. I mean really why would a guy have an issue with glitter being on his clothes, or bring an extra set just for the club? I mean we just looked at a thread about strippers that avoid couples. Hmm why? because it's all fun until the wife sees her husband's woody and see's the sheer pleasure all over his face and the pain of realizing that hmmm "he would so fuck this girl if I wasn't here and she wanted to".... crosses her mind. She probably thinks about how he snores in bed, his back is hairy, he comes to fast, she had this bratty kid for him, she went through 15 hrs of labor, she now has stretch marks, etc. But this fucker want's to fuck the girl after all of the time and practically my life I've given to him? How I had to give up modeling because he got me pregnant but I loved him and I'm now 40lbs over weight? etc etc. She's the woman that has been by his side through thick and thin and maybe gave up on her dreams for him but he's looking at this other woman like he looked at me when we first met.
^Shit sounds bad doesn't it? You almost feel sorry for this woman because if you really wanted to , you could fuck her husband in a heart beat, just because you're super hot , young and he is so hard for you.
Now have I been approached by married men? OOh you bet, but I think about that woman that's at home taking care of their kids, the woman that's been by their side before they became "partner at the law firm". I then think.... you piece of shit!! fuck you! NO I WILL NOT MEET YOU AFTER YOU SPENT $2000 ON A CAM SHOW. Sorry not interested in riding someone's used or dirty dick.
But that's just me.... I don't like to share. But again some people like to share and that's fine if all parties are aware of this.
Plus I would view a woman to have a true sense of CONFIDENCE,SELF RESPECT AND HIGH SELF ESTEEM to drop her guy if he went. But again let's see how many guys actually tell their wives ooh honey don't wait up , I'm going to the SC tonight and "Destiny" gives the best LD's... I came twice last time! Night! Ohh and yeah sorry can't get you those shoes this week. "Destiny's baby daddy didn't pay child support again, I need her to grind on my lap 5 times and that should get her what she needs. See honey I told you I'm not selfish.;)
Wife: Aww Dear well I'm proud that you're giving back to the community. Since you're so generous, I'm going to donate all of your clothes to Salvation Army... have fun dear...my hitachi wand just came in the mail...smooches!
^Yeah that's really going to go over well.
OPEN RELATIONSHIP: SURE!
COMMITTED CLOSED HONEST RELATIONSHIP: FAIL!
Almost Jaded
05-10-2011, 02:11 PM
I have so many problems with that post I don't know where to start.
I'll sum it up like this: If there was open communication and respect in the relationship to begin with, the rest of that scenario ceases to exist.
There, that was easy...
Kellydancer
05-10-2011, 03:05 PM
I agree where Cherry is going with that post and I agree. As dancers we often see the worst in men, including the men with wives who give up everything to cater to the family while the husband wants something on the side. Perhaps that's partly why I haven't married yet, but I've seen many scenarios like that. Not to mention that I always see posts from men stating they go to strip clubs because their wife "got fat". What is rarely mentioned is that they often got fat too and that in many cases their wife got fat because she was pregnant and never lost the baby weight.
I've been the woman that other women hated because I was way hotter than them. That's why I was a dancer and a model and they weren't. I never understood why they were jealous until I got older and saw men do some of the most heinous things ever at strip clubs. I would hope it's only a small percentage but everytime I dealt with a married man asking me for sex I kept thinking of how much of a scumbag he was.
Unfortunately, many men don't respect their wives. I've seen many women give up everything and their husband give up nothing. I will admit I am a selfish bitch and refuse to be a martyr wh gives up everything while my husband gives up nothing. I'd rather never marry than marry a jerk like that. I believe compromise is essential to marriage but too many women bend.
Vyanka
05-10-2011, 03:14 PM
True. I choose to be in a monogamous relationship and look for the same in a partner. If he simply isn't upfront with that & doesn't give me what I want 100%, i'm confident to gtfo of that relationship asap and find someone who will satisfy me all the way. :) Confident women don't tolerate a man's bullshit & know they can get what they want/deserve.
No matter what kind of relationship you're in, for that matter.
Kellydancer
05-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Exactly. I have dumped men for less things than going to a strip club and getting his dick grinded. I have never tolerated bull shit for any guy and any guy who would cheat on me is someone I will immediately dump. I will give second chances to guys except in the case of cheating and abuse. I had an ex years ago who cheated, I found out and dumped him. He kept begging for a second chance and he never got one.
MarvelGirl
05-10-2011, 03:35 PM
I am truly curious to know where males are so free with their mates that they do not feel territorial urges to prevent other guys from trying to fuck them. :)
They're the guys who pursue an open relationship with women they can be honest with rather than the guys who marry some woman, promise to be faithful to her and then cheat on her with strippers.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 05:46 PM
They're the guys who pursue an open relationship with women they can be honest with rather than the guys who marry some woman, promise to be faithful to her and then cheat on her with strippers.
LOL. If every guy that cheated, or was inclined to cheat, was open with the woman he wanted to marry, then there would be far fewer marriages out there. ;) Hell, for that matter, if every married guy was faithful there would be far fewer strip clubs and strippers.
I'm not saying that this is right, just that it is the reality.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 06:21 PM
Cherry, I have to admit that I dodged these questions before. However, after holding AJ's feet to the fire a bit, I think it is only fair that I respond when mine are held there as well. So, with that said...
I think I also wondered about you as well. I often think if you would be ok with your wife sleeping with other men. If not why? If so I wondered why stay married? I understand men like variety and some are just not into monogamy but I often wonder what the benefit is in staying with someone you cheat on. Or why not be in an open relationship instead similar to AJ's relationship.? I think this always goes through my head but I didn't want to intrude and question anyone directly since those feeling may be too personal.
Also while cheating and returning home do you feel ashamed or any remorse for your wife? Do you feel bad for cheating? Or do you feel nothing? Do you label it like an addiction or something more along the lines of it's just something I enjoy doing. Also what would you do if you caught your wife cheating?
IME, the reality is that a lot of guys cheat at one time or another. I'm not saying that this justifies anything, just that it is a reality. And the rate of cheating is often directly associated with how much opportunity there is to cheat and not be caught.
And I find the whole discussion of sex addiction to be ludicrous. In fact, I thought that Tiger Woods was a world class sissy for how he handled everything. Was Bill Clinton a sex addict because he fucked around, or the many other politicians caught with their dicks in the cookie jar? Are the athletes and other stars that cheat regularly sex addicts? IMO no, they are just acting upon the opportunities that exist for them.
Similarly, IME, the percentages of guys who own businesses and/or are in senior executive positions that cheat are high. Many of these types travel a lot, work long hours and otherwise have the means to do so. They also have a lot of willing girls at their disposal. Again, this doesn't make it right, but it is the reality.
And what does blowing a load with some strange girl have to do with whether I love my wife? She's the mother of my children, while they are simply momentary indulgences. I love my wife dearly and will never leave her. In fact, this is one of the reasons I cheat primarily through p4p with strippers - there is no confusion about what it is and I won't have a jilted girlfriend calling my home some day. Hell, if all of the aforementioned guys that cheated were looking to divorce, then divorce rates would be even higher than they are today.
Has my wife cheated on me? I don't think so, but of course nobody can ever be sure about something like that. And I have no idea how I would react if I learned that she did, but probably not well at all. Is this a double standard? No doubt, but I never claimed otherwise.
I bring home the money while she takes care of the children and the house and otherwise lives a good life. Our children will go to the best schools, have a world of opportunities in front of them, and grow up in a secure household with loving parents who, to the best of their knowledge, are role models for them. I have no interest in changing any of this. What I do on the side is just a momentary diversion in order to satisfy my desire to see and feel a different body now and then, not a core lifestyle.
You may not like these answers, but there it is.
noelle
05-10-2011, 07:33 PM
What I do on the side is just a momentary diversion in order to satisfy my desire to see and feel a different body now and then, not a core lifestyle.
You may not like these answers, but there it is.
I don't see how the difference between a diversion and a lifestyle so radically changes this issue. One could even argue that what you are doing is a lifestyle, and a dishonest one at that.
In my opinion you are engaging in a situation where one of the participants (your wife) is unaware of the truth of the arrangement, which does not sit well with me. I have great respect for many different lifestyles, so long as the people involved are willing participants who are honest and respectful of each other.
You can say whatever you want about how certain types of men cheat, it's so easy, etc. That doesn't have anything to do with being honest about it. I understand when you say you desire novelty, because I also have that desire, as does my husband. That is why BEFORE we got married, we had many open and honest discussions about our sexual desires, and set forth terms we both agreed to.
We're not as open as some couples, like AJ and MM, but maybe someday we will be. What works for us right now is we're allowed to be with other people when we are far away from each other, and also have fooled around with others together. We will continue to talk about everything and re-negotiate this arrangement if it isn't working for one or both of us, whether that's because we want to be more or less open.
No one is saying you should deny your desire for women other than your wife. They're simply trying to understand why you have such criticism for open and poly relationships while you yourself are living proof that monogamy is not all it seems.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 08:01 PM
No one is saying you should deny your desire for women other than your wife. They're simply trying to understand why you have such criticism for open and poly relationships while you yourself are living proof that monogamy is not all it seems.
I have not even the slightest criticism of open and poly relationships. Read my other comments in this thread and you'll see that I don't care in the slightest how grown adults choose to interact with each other.
My discussion regarding AJ's situation centered around questioning how truly two-sided his situation actually is. He admitted at one point to struggling with the concept of MM sleeping with other men, but fortunately has not had to deal with this issue as she wants to be faithful to him as far as other men are concerned. Now he has also said that he is open to her exploring her options, but I continue to wonder how easy it will be for him if it moves from concept to reality. I suppose time will tell.
But for the vast majority of us guys who are with women who have more mainstream views on these topics, the concept of having an open dialogue about sleeping with other people is ludicrous. IMHO, the very traits that make a woman a good choice for raising a family and tending a household would make her a bad choice for an "open marriage" discussion. Also, in all candor, I don't know if I could handle the thought of the mother of my babies sleeping with other men, even as I do what I do with other women.
Anyway, for better or for worse, there it is.
noelle
05-10-2011, 08:10 PM
IMHO, the very traits that make a woman a good choice for raising a family and tending a household would make her a bad choice for an "open marriage" discussion.
Yikes. Okay, well, I personally find this pretty dang offensive, but you have the right to your own opinion. I don't agree that an open-minded woman who likes sex and is good at communicating is inherently unable to be a good wife and mother. In fact I think that's a crazily narrow way of thinking.
I can't hang with this whole "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. I just don't get it. :yikes:
Kellydancer
05-10-2011, 08:39 PM
Yikes. Okay, well, I personally find this pretty dang offensive, but you have the right to your own opinion. I don't agree that an open-minded woman who likes sex and is good at communicating is inherently unable to be a good wife and mother. In fact I think that's a crazily narrow way of thinking.
I can't hang with this whole "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. I just don't get it. :yikes:
I can't either but I've become used to it with his posts. He's expressed very sexist ideas that women should either be housewives or whores and those women in open marriages are whores (while he sleeps around). I think your marriage is a lot more honest than his because at least you are truthful with your husband. I think people that cheat without the other knowing are the lowest of the low. I have no problem with people in open marriages.
However, as much as it pains to say this, he is right about those guys in high management positions and their likelihood to cheat. This is one of the reasons why I generally avoid these types of men. I prefer men who work and don't live their job.
noelle
05-10-2011, 08:44 PM
However, as much as it pains to say this, he is right about those guys in high management positions and their likelihood to cheat.
Oh I totally agree with that. That's why if my husband was on a business trip far away from me I wouldn't care if he slept with someone else. And he has said the same for me. As long as he comes home to me, that is what matters to me. I know that's not for everyone and some people get very emotionally attached if they have sex with someone, but not me.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 08:46 PM
Yikes. Okay, well, I personally find this pretty dang offensive, but you have the right to your own opinion. I don't agree that an open-minded woman who likes sex and is good at communicating is inherently unable to be a good wife and mother. In fact I think that's a crazily narrow way of thinking.
My opinion is based soley upon my own set of experiences. The small number of "open minded" women that I happened to meet in my dating years were headcases of the highest caliber. However, for all I know, there could be plenty of women out there who are looking to keep there sexual explorations open AND could be good mothers and wives.
rickdugan
05-10-2011, 08:59 PM
I can't either but I've become used to it with his posts. He's expressed very sexist ideas that women should either be housewives or whores and those women in open marriages are whores (while he sleeps around).
Huh? That's news to me. :O
Kellydancer
05-10-2011, 09:07 PM
Huh? That's news to me. :O
I am not going to get into it with you, but I remember the posts where you told me because I plan to work if I have kids I would be a lousy mother. If I remember the posts were deleted because there was some nasty fighting (and the fighting that caused it to be deleted was not between you and I). You have every right to believe as you want, but yes you have expressed some sexist views. However, I do think it's somewhat disgusting that you cheat on your wife but she doesn't know. If she does know then that's not disgusting. I've seen marriages ruined from secret cheating so I am not a fan of it. However, open marriages are another story. I don't think it's wrong to sleep with other people, I think it's wrong to lie about it.
Kellydancer
05-10-2011, 09:14 PM
Oh I totally agree with that. That's why if my husband was on a business trip far away from me I wouldn't care if he slept with someone else. And he has said the same for me. As long as he comes home to me, that is what matters to me. I know that's not for everyone and some people get very emotionally attached if they have sex with someone, but not me.
That is more honest than many people I've known who slept with others. I don't consider that cheating. For me I couldn't handle it, but really respect those who have agreements like that.
Almost Jaded
05-10-2011, 11:13 PM
This is making my head hurt.
People debating or arguing points, and then basically making those points from the negative, lol.
Jealousy only exists because of how we're raised to think, there's nothing wrong with monogamy but for most people in this world it's a myth, and honesty is the best policy.
How easy can it be...
MarvelGirl
05-11-2011, 02:22 AM
Good lord, some of the hypocrisy on this thread is downright nauseating.
So, if a woman wants to be a good wife and mother, she needs to reject an open relationship and instead be with a man who will, of course, cheat on her and lie to her about it because, hey, that's just reality.
This argument makes me so glad that my husband isn't a moron. So freakin' glad.
rickdugan
05-11-2011, 04:18 AM
This argument makes me so glad that my husband isn't a moron. So freakin' glad.
Many of those so-called "morons" are among the brightest and most successful men around. ::)
Athenathefabulous
05-11-2011, 04:30 AM
^^success comes in many different forms. clearly you are bright enough to not get caught cheating and successful enough to pay for girls to cheat with... does this make you the brightest and most successful around? no probably not.
princessjas
05-11-2011, 06:28 AM
I am not going to get into it with you, but I remember the posts where you told me because I plan to work if I have kids I would be a lousy mother. If I remember the posts were deleted because there was some nasty fighting (and the fighting that caused it to be deleted was not between you and I). You have every right to believe as you want, but yes you have expressed some sexist views. However, I do think it's somewhat disgusting that you cheat on your wife but she doesn't know. If she does know then that's not disgusting. I've seen marriages ruined from secret cheating so I am not a fan of it. However, open marriages are another story. I don't think it's wrong to sleep with other people, I think it's wrong to lie about it.
Actually in that same thread he mentioned what a good mom I sounded like. Me with my bisexuality and polyamorous nature. :D
rickdugan
05-11-2011, 06:34 AM
^^success comes in many different forms. clearly you are bright enough to not get caught cheating and successful enough to pay for girls to cheat with... does this make you the brightest and most successful around? no probably not.
Nor did I ever lump myself into those categories. Hell, if I was brighter I wouldn't be posting in these parts at all. ;)
I am far from the most successful person I know or deal with, but I've had enough good fortune that I have the ready cash and opportunities to screw around, whether it is p4p or some other arrangement. Having said that, I have generally avoided the girlfriend/mistress route and I am also careful not to hire anyone in my office or home that might tempt me in any way. So yes, that leaves me in the much safer p4p arena.
And avoiding detection is no great mental feat. When a guy gets caught, it is almost always because he violated one of the four cardinal rules:
1. Don't shit where you eat.
Never screw around with someone that your wife is friendly or even familiar with. Women talk, and if you are screwing around with one who knows your wife it is almost a certainty that it will eventually get back to her.
2. Don't dip your pen in company ink.
Never have an affair with a woman that works for or with you. When things go sour, and they eventually will, it almost never ends well (or privately).
3. Leave no paper or electronic trails.
It is amazing how many guys get caught through phone records, credit card statements, text messages or dicey emails. Owning my own business helps a lot in these regards as I have ready access to non-household cash, a dedicated work cell phone, and an email account that is not accessible on the homefront. I am also careful about routinely deleting texts and I never keep private numbers stored anywhere.
4. Not in my back yard.
Don't screw around with a woman too close to home. While this is a little less risky than the first three issues above, rumours and gossip have a way of circulating. This is particularly true if you are active in local community churches and charities.
rickdugan
05-11-2011, 06:45 AM
Jealousy only exists because of how we're raised to think, there's nothing wrong with monogamy but for most people in this world it's a myth, and honesty is the best policy.
How easy can it be...
Absolutely. Men are openly fucking multiple women all over the world. I wonder how much that works in the other direction though? Unless, of course, you've found that example of this that you were going to share with us...::)
Of course, I would also submit that jealousy can rear its ugly head even in the Big Love type of situation that you've got going. Case in point...
^^^ Ask Jaded what it was like when territorial-ness and jealousy reared it's head in our household when GF#2 was living here.
We were worse than a man could EVER be. Not even joking.
rickdugan
05-11-2011, 07:03 AM
I am not going to get into it with you, but I remember the posts where you told me because I plan to work if I have kids I would be a lousy mother...
...You have every right to believe as you want, but yes you have expressed some sexist views...
I did no such thing.
What I did do is share my dismay over your statement that you would only have kids if the guy involved wanted them more than you. I did also share my surprise that you could never envision being the primary caregiver and that you could never marry a guy more successful than you because he would likely want you to stay home with the kid(s).
Of course, in that last position you are setting the bar absurdly low as your own career has not really taken off, so the net effect of your various beliefs is that you are likely going to deprive any child of yours of both a mother's nurturing in the early years AND any real financial security.
Actually in that same thread he mentioned what a good mom I sounded like. Me with my bisexuality and polyamorous nature. :D
And I stand by those satements. As I mentioned above, the women that I have met that would be open to these types of arrangements were headcases that I wouldn't trust with my lunch order, nevermind my children. But you are clearly dedicated to your children, including your autistic child, and I have a great deal of respect everything that you do.
Almost Jaded
05-11-2011, 08:54 AM
Geez Rick, I don't know if it occurred to you, but human beings aren't robots or computers that you reprogram and obtain instant measurable results. Yes jealousy became an issue when GF#2 was around. Because SHE MADE IT ONE. And seeing as everyone else in the house was raised in the same society you were - you know, the one that teaches possessiveness and jealousy from birth? That one? - it had a ripple effect in the relationship. Holy shit, how could that EVER be possible, I guess we should throw the whole thing out with the bathwater, huh? ::)
Whilst completely ignoring the not-so-easily-ignored issue that DNA testing to determine paternity infers that our modern society is, in fact, COMPLETELY familiar with the concept, I'll just point out that there are more than 21 cultures KNOWN FOR CERTAIN to either have practiced or be practicing polyandry. Were it not for the fact that the old testament and the quran both sorta makes a big deal about banning it in the currently accepted translations, there would probably be more.
Oh yeah - and about that whole killing off all the military aged men every few generations thing. As well as the whole men do most of the high-risk work in most societies, both ancient and modern, primitive and industrialized.
Factors that complicate the matter just a smidge.
In modern polyamory, MFM relationships are as common or more so than FMF triads. Quads and other multi-both-sex relationships outnumber either of them.
Quit with the smugness. You have no high ground on which to stand, be it moral or intellectual, and it's getting annoying.
tempest666
05-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Holy shit lol! I wonder what would have happened if I posted about the Krazy Glue penis incident! I don't even know what this thread is about anymore.
noelle
05-11-2011, 09:05 AM
I thought I would step away from this, but one more thing. Rick, I guess what bothers me even more than the lying is that even if you practice safe sex, you are exposing your wife to a heightened risk of STDs. I simply do not think that's fair at all.
Also, you haven't gotten caught - yet. But I guarantee that if you continue this, there's about a 95% chance you will eventually get caught. Hopefully it's not because your wife contracts HPV or herpes, but that is a possibility since condoms do not fully protect against those diseases.
Kellydancer
05-11-2011, 11:37 AM
I did no such thing.
What I did do is share my dismay over your statement that you would only have kids if the guy involved wanted them more than you. I did also share my surprise that you could never envision being the primary caregiver and that you could never marry a guy more successful than you because he would likely want you to stay home with the kid(s).
Of course, in that last position you are setting the bar absurdly low as your own career has not really taken off, so the net effect of your various beliefs is that you are likely going to deprive any child of yours of both a mother's nurturing in the early years AND any real financial security.
Actually my career has taken off, you just assume it hasn't. Just because one doesn't want to be a top level executive or marry one doesn't mean my career is less worthy. I love working and have just as much right to be a mother as a woman who wants to stay at home. I stand by my comments that you have sexist views, and you have verified them. I could never be with a man who expected my career to come after his while he screws around with other women. In fact I don't know any women who would want a man who screws around. I wonder what your wife would think if she knew. Btw I have a few friends who gave up careers to marry men who eventually cheated on them. They regret marrying them and one is divorcing. I hope she gets a lot of money in the settlement.
Kellydancer
05-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Geez Rick, I don't know if it occurred to you, but human beings aren't robots or computers that you reprogram and obtain instant measurable results. Yes jealousy became an issue when GF#2 was around. Because SHE MADE IT ONE. And seeing as everyone else in the house was raised in the same society you were - you know, the one that teaches possessiveness and jealousy from birth? That one? - it had a ripple effect in the relationship. Holy shit, how could that EVER be possible, I guess we should throw the whole thing out with the bathwater, huh? ::)
Whilst completely ignoring the not-so-easily-ignored issue that DNA testing to determine paternity infers that our modern society is, in fact, COMPLETELY familiar with the concept, I'll just point out that there are more than 21 cultures KNOWN FOR CERTAIN to either have practiced or be practicing polyandry. Were it not for the fact that the old testament and the quran both sorta makes a big deal about banning it in the currently accepted translations, there would probably be more.
Oh yeah - and about that whole killing off all the military aged men every few generations thing. As well as the whole men do most of the high-risk work in most societies, both ancient and modern, primitive and industrialized.
Factors that complicate the matter just a smidge.
In modern polyamory, MFM relationships are as common or more so than FMF triads. Quads and other multi-both-sex relationships outnumber either of them.
Quit with the smugness. You have no high ground on which to stand, be it moral or intellectual, and it's getting annoying.
While I don't understand your relationship, I respect you and others who are open about it. I've been asked in real life who I would feel if my husband asked for an open marriage and I've said I would think that was more honest than screwing around. I can't say I would or wouldn't approve of an open marriage but I know I wouldn't approve of a husband cheating on me.
Btw, I remember hearing something years ago that many times men never knew if they were the father of not because both the man and the woman were sleeping with others. This is where the whole village raising a child comes from. Also, while researching these kinds of relationships for a class I found that in many societies this still goes on. In one culture in Africa I believe all the men have sex with the bride before she marries.
Mindy Bares All
05-11-2011, 04:13 PM
Wow. So much information in my head has been picked up here & there over time; I've never really gone on an in-depth research kick on the topic. I'm soaking up so much information it's almost over whelming.
As a result, I'm going to hold off on posting anything specific until I've put some tings together, but I can say a couple of things with certainty:
1 - I am largely wrong in my claims to lagirl that women cheat more than men. The vast majority of studies do in fact indicate that within the strictures of formal relationships, men cheat more than women.
2 - I am largely wrong in my claim that polyandry is historically almost as common as polygamy, as instances of the latter significantly outnumber the former. In my defense, regarding the reasons for this I was right on the money across the board. I still claim, however, that in the modern and predominately western polyamory movement this is not the case, and I continue to believe this.
3 - Many studies have been conducted and are being conducted on the subject of divorce rates and relationship patterns in "monogamous" cultures that are leading researchers to regard "serial monogamy" as a form of polygany. Basically, they're saying that humans as a whole are definitely NOT wired for monogamy and have found a way around socially enforced monogamy by having multiple partners in a string rather than at once. Personally, I think that's funny as hell, lol.
So far an easy and succinct summary can be found by quoting a line from the Wiki page on monogamy:
"...only approximately 17.8% (100) of 563 societies sampled in Murdock’s Atlas of World Cultures has any form of monogamy."
As for the claims that jealousy is a learned behavior, well, I'm working through this one at a time, so that will come soon. I will say that so far, preliminary results seem to back my position.
:)
This reminds me of the book It's Not You, It's Biology by Joe Quirk. It's a really fascinating read, and does cover promiscuity/cheating spouses, and polygamy, polyandry, and the like.
Personally, I loved the book. Thought you might find it interesting. ;D
princessjas
05-11-2011, 06:33 PM
^^^ Ask Jaded what it was like when territorial-ness and jealousy reared it's head in our household when GF#2 was living here.
We were worse than a man could EVER be. Not even joking.
Oh, I believe it! I have a 23 yr old gf that currently gets to drive me bonkers from time to time. lol I adore her, but sometimes.....wow. ;D
Holy shit lol! I wonder what would have happened if I posted about the Krazy Glue penis incident! I don't even know what this thread is about anymore.
Ok, you can't say something like that and not elaborate! :P
Djoser
05-11-2011, 10:40 PM
If he simply isn't upfront with that & doesn't give me what I want 100%, i'm confident to gtfo of that relationship asap and find someone who will satisfy me all the way. :) Confident women don't tolerate a man's bullshit & know they can get what they want/deserve.
Thank you. This notion that monogamous relationships are somehow inferior, or that monogamous couples are somehow lacking in confidence, is severely flawed.
I'm also not convinced that polygamous relationships are nearly as common in human history and culture as has been postulated here (other than the most powerful males acquiring harems of course), nor that multiple male partners are as common as multiple females.
I am also far from convinced that jealousy is learned behavior--in fact I think the control of jealous instincts is the true learned behavior. Witness how quick babies are to scream about someone playing with their toys or whatever.
Nor have I found women in polygamous relationships to be any more confident than women in monogamous relationships--in fact from what I have personally seen, they are probably less so--but that of course, is just what I've seen myself, not any kind of scientific evidence. Actually, I've seen some really fucked up men and women in both kinds of relationships, monogamous and polygamous. Neither holds any monopoly on increased levels of confidence.
I've also seen just as many crazy jealous women as men. That's why there's a fucking chain on the DJ booth, hanging there, never used, that cost me 14,000$ so far. Because some dumb bitch couldn't handle 'her' DJ boyfriend talking to other dancers and threw her drink into the booth. Neither sex holds any sort of monopoly on jealous rage either.
;D
The one postulate that holds up from both points of view--honesty and trust are the most important factors in a successful long-term relationship, whatever kind it is.
tempest666
05-12-2011, 12:19 AM
Ok, you can't say something like that and not elaborate! :P
http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/krazy-glue-revenge-four-women-glue-mans-penis-his-stomach
Almost Jaded
05-12-2011, 04:38 AM
Gawd, did you read the replies to that article?!?! There are some scary bitches out there.
princessjas
05-12-2011, 06:32 AM
Thank you. This notion that monogamous relationships are somehow inferior, or that monogamous couples are somehow lacking in confidence, is severely flawed. I don't think anyone was saying that.....just different strokes for different folks. :)
I am also far from convinced that jealousy is learned behavior--in fact I think the control of jealous instincts is the true learned behavior. Witness how quick babies are to scream about someone playing with their toys or whatever. I disagree completely. I've rarely felt jealousy. Never tried to ignore it....it just isn't usually there. I also was never one of those brats that minded sharing my toys. I thought they were the exception, not the rule....since they are looked down upon by their peers and put in time out to control the behavior.....and I really only remember 2-3 kiddos in my classes acting that badly. Unless your social landscape was completely different than mine, kiddos like that were alienated.....pointing to possesiveness not being the norm or socially accepted till we are ''trained''. :-\