View Full Version : Sex Trafficking
missmagnolia
02-24-2011, 04:34 PM
I wasn't meaning vanilla age play at all. Maybe I'm a target for a different kind of wackos then... I can mention dozens and dozens of things I've been said that I don't think neither of you would be comfortable with, even considering it role playing. I do look very young, that's maybe why I get these guys. A guy once asked me to pretend I was his daughter as I said, I don't remember how old he said she was, but it was definitely under 10. I don't think that's acceptable AT ALL. Other guy made a similar request not too long ago, but this time asking me to pretend I was his wife's daughter. I remember one who wanted to role play on the telephone with me one day, and started to talk as he was babysitting me and talking with "baby voice" (I mean, the voice you use to talk to a baby, not sure how you call it) and mentioning and calling his dick "baby bottle" as he were trying to trick me ("my character") into sucking it... The funny thing is that they only reveal that kind of intention after some minutes of pvt. The funny thing is that this is a recent phenomenon to me, maybe I'm just having a coincidental wave of urgh, don't even know how to call them...
And yes, my mind draws some unlikely scenarios sometimes... :O
I'm probably nit-picking here, but I feel like criminalizing (or judging, for that matter) people's sexual fantasies is a really, really slippery slope. I identify as a queer sex radical feminist (that's kind of an awkward mouthful, but there it is). I also identify as a proud submissive who happens to very much get off on ageplay sometimes.
Sex trafficking is one of the grossest, saddest, DIREST things going on in the world right now (hell, for much longer than "right now"). Pedophilia, rape culture, incest, et cetera, make me feel homicidal, as in, I want to fucking kill the types of people who take advantage of people in this way. There is clearly a LOT that we need to think about, and organize, and do around these issues.
It makes me really uncomfortable, though, when the idea is floated, however flippantly, of reporting people for the fantasies that they choose to entrust in us. It's just a little too 1984 for my taste--not to mention for my clit ;)
sexandgrammar
02-24-2011, 04:53 PM
Hrm... I mean, I find that stuff creepy, but again, I really feel like it's dangerous--extremely dangerous--to try to criminalize anyone's sexual fantasies. Like Smurfette said, if they were into children, they wouldn't be paying a grown woman good money to role-play with them.
In my experience--which is admittedly limited--role-play takes quite a bit of self-awareness. Both parties need to consent, for one. And it sounds like you have really clear boundaries, and I absolutely respect and admire that. Especially in the sex industry, where it's so easy to cross the line from what you're comfortable with over into what makes you queasy, I really applaud that you know where you stand, and what you won't do. When a cam customer asks me specifically to pretend to be under ten, I usually try to steer the conversation elsewhere. But just because I'm not always comfortable going there with someone in my work life, doesn't mean that I feel I'm entitled to judge anyone else for it.
Everyone is entitled to his or her fantasy, as long as it stays a fantasy, OR as long as its acted out between two consensual, safe, and sane adults. That's the edict I try to live (and love!) by :)
Bambalina
02-24-2011, 05:28 PM
I really feel like it's dangerous--extremely dangerous--to try to criminalize anyone's sexual fantasies. Like Smurfette said, if they were into children, they wouldn't be paying a grown woman good money to role-play with them.
I am very very very anti-thought police. I think criminalizing fantasy is a very dangerous thing as well. But to play devil's advocate, I am not sure I agree with the above.
If a guy is an active pedophile for girls around age 10-14, and doesn't have continual access, it is very likely he looks on the net for extremely young looking models to role-play with when there is no actual 10-14 yr old girls available. I would assume there isn't an unending supply of underaged girls, or opportunity to molest them (thank heavens)...Wouldn't you agree?
B
sexandgrammar
02-24-2011, 08:37 PM
It's a really good question, and I'm not sure what I think. I've always assumed that someone who is an honest-to-god pedophile has NO interest in adult women. As in, does not find adult women attractive, and thus, would just view an adult woman acting like a child as rather silly.
I think Smurfette's bringing up rape fantasies was actually very apt. I fantasize about rape. I don't think this is uncommon, but I don't presume to speak for all women--not at all. When I was a child, I fantasized about being taken by force, although I didn't have a name for it then. I was never molested, or assaulted, nor did I ever want to be. This is all to say that I really think that a fantasy world should be presumed to be just that, as long as no one's getting hurt.
Andrea Dworkin wrote that "pornography is the theory, rape is the practice." She also believed that rape is a crime of violence, not of sex, and that all men are natural rapists, if not literally then figuratively. Needless to say, I disagree with Andrea Dworkin. Fervently.
If I play the devil's advocate, too, and assume that there ARE pedophiles who troll the internet looking for women to role-play with, I still can't justify criminalizing role-play. When that happens, then all so-called "deviant" sexualities become criminalized, as is the case, to a lesser extent, with obscenity laws in Canada.
The issue here is sex trafficking, and that's a real one, a HUGE one. We have our work MORE than cut out for us in trying to help the very real, very trafficked women (and men) out there, without worrying about people's fantasy lives. When we do the latter, I feel like we can get even more overwhelmed by the uphill battle at hand, and then do nothing.
(I love debates like this. A lot.)
Sunbeams
02-24-2011, 08:39 PM
Someone said girls from outside UK/USA/Australia or something shouldn't be accepted. Not only it's a huge generalization (there are other places with high levels of human development, you know?), it wouldn't even start to fix the problem, just keep it away from your sight or even make it worse (not working on these sites they would be forced to "heavier" exploitation). If these girls couldn't work on these sites they would still be forced into some other form of sexual exploitation. Are you worried about their well-being and safety or about these 3rd world nasty things somehow infiltrating your life? Please, I'm not trying to sound harsh at all, but that isn't such a quick solution...
I just said that because I don't really think I could live with myself if I was profiting off of people being exploited. I know that it wouldn't solve the problem, but yes, I do think that sites should be more picky when accepting people, especially those outside of developed countries...the video recording thing you mentioned doesn't sound like a bad idea actually. My main issue is with studios, and you can usually tell that most girls in really poor countries are in studios by the tacky wallpaper and screens etc. I never said it would be a quick solution, but I do think it could be a step in the right direction if big sites stopped turning a blind eye out of greed when they could use their almighty powers to help people in these situations, even if just by raising awareness.
Sexandgrammar I can relate to some of what you say because there are plenty of fantasies I have too that I would never want to actually happen, or I should say I'd only want them to happen with the right guy. I think it's the same for most customers, but sometimes I think "Would they really do these things if given the right opportunity and they could get away with it?" I usually give the benefit of the doubt that it's just a fantasy for them but that doesn't mean I don't get creeped out haha.
BuffyFlame
02-24-2011, 10:06 PM
On the subject of men being petifiles , Have you ever heard of "Hardcore Max" He actualy has the girls in his porn movies say they are 13-14 , call him mister , Where pigtails , and dora the explora shirts, ect , He has over 100 movies with 100 different girls , most of them foreign , phillipens russa , in some of his videos the girls appear to be REALLY underage , some of them are porn stars though , so mabye just good casting for the part? Ive been researching him for sometime now , its kinda creepy.
Im not asking for a online orgy , But what do you think of these from a human standpoint.
In this video around 3:40ish the girl actually says shes 14- Obviously a lie , But still i didnt think that was allowed , Suggested underage sex , Im not trying to call the max man out , for obviously hes not breaking any MAJOR laws , beings his massive video base , But still ied like your input.
http://video.xnxx.com/video702271/max_hardcore_shoots_facial_on_petite_girl_with_bra ces
missmagnolia
02-24-2011, 10:27 PM
Buffy, your video gave me a clue on why I attract this kind of members... I started to wear braces again less than a year ago... Some of them make remarks about it, that added to me looking younger that I am... well... I'm just so fed up of being asked to act like a child...
And yes Sunbeans, I really agree with you them. Studios should not be allowed in these countries, maybe not outside the country the site is from, since the sites have no way to control if the model is being paid or not. Sorry, I guess I didn't understand what you meant. I'm a little sensitive about this because when I was in IF there was some nastiness going on on the forums, with many girls really insulting non-American girls and suggesting they should leave or receive their payout in their own currency (I remember thinking, what the fuck? Why should I be paid less for the same work and make more to the site? That's the same mentality of international companies that establish factories in 3rd world countries so they can pay less for the same work...).
Actually, the first time I worked on a site ever was for a studio (a physical one). Here they put adds on the newspaper saying they need "English speaking girls". I went to an interview and though I would give it a try... And yes they ripped me off... I had quit because I found out I could do this from home (they claim you cannot), I really didn't like the woman who ran the whole thing so I did it by phone. Like a week later I went there to receive what I had earned and... puff! The studio was gone! They left the location, and didn't leave any phone number with the building administration... They had made me sign a contract saying that if I ever worked on the same site two years from signing up with them I would owe them 2 thousand dollars. I didn't care because I know that was BS... The funniest thing is that I recognized that lady 2 years after that because she was a participant on Big Brother...
missmagnolia
02-24-2011, 10:32 PM
I have a question tho, whose answer I can't give yet to myself... In which point do you think fantasy/fetish stops and we start dealing with paraphilia/aka the sick stuff?
missmagnolia
02-24-2011, 10:42 PM
Although I didn't think exactly this (but I should have), what I frequently wonder about that matter is whether guys who ask things like that aren't "proto-pedophiles" who might start their activities with, but not exclusively, camming. No one suddenly wakes up and think "hey, I think I wanna start molesting children today". They might try this kind of role play to make sure they really get off with that, to experiment, test reactions, even to try to repress their urges for a while... What makes me hugely bothered is that I think if I play along, rather than just saying "I think that's sick", I might plant a seed that encourages the guy to think he might get away with it, after all, I didn't seem so shocked. It's possible that I'm being paranoid, and that maybe just one in a million of guys who ask for that kind of thing is really a pedophile. I just don't wanna spend the rest of my life wondering if that guy I helped to get off wasn't really a pedophile looking for some kind of reassurance.
I am very very very anti-thought police. I think criminalizing fantasy is a very dangerous thing as well. But to play devil's advocate, I am not sure I agree with the above.
If a guy is an active pedophile for girls around age 10-14, and doesn't have continual access, it is very likely he looks on the net for extremely young looking models to role-play with when there is no actual 10-14 yr old girls available. I would assume there isn't an unending supply of underaged girls, or opportunity to molest them (thank heavens)...Wouldn't you agree?
B
MistyRose
02-24-2011, 10:44 PM
I have a question tho, whose answer I can't give yet to myself... In which point do you think fantasy/fetish stops and we start dealing with paraphilia/aka the sick stuff?
I really can't answer this to myself, even. I (as most people) have fantasies that I never want to do in reality for various reasons, and I think we can't censor thought, nor try to. However...I find incest/pedophila creepy and uncomfortable even as fantasies and that's the reason why I just won't do it in my shows. I know some girls are okay with this sort of roleplay and it doesn't bother me, it's the question of what they feel comfortable doing. It's just something that crosses my personal boundaries and I NEED to steer away from that, regardless of the money. If I could get a regular who would spend thousand a month on me or more, but it would involve that, I couldn't do it. I need money, but I also need my sanity.
BuffyFlame
02-24-2011, 11:52 PM
I beleive it becomes an issue , when you no longer think of it as a fantisy , more as need.
Ex: You love porn , You watch porn and think about porn so much , where you cant get satisfaction ,without having porn involved.
When it becomes a need , or obsession ,over just fantisy?
Sunbeams
02-25-2011, 12:16 AM
Hehe no worries Magnolia, I wrote that post kind of fast because I guess I was angry over feeling helpless about this problem. It's hard because when you hear about this kind of thing, you can't help but picture yourself in those situations. Sometimes when I start feeling too guilty about my privileged life I donate money to causes that help people in bad situations like this...I guess it's really the only thing I can do.
That would be totally ridiculous to get paid in lower currencies! In fact I always feel bad for girls in the UK and EU who get paid in crappy US dollars because it almost doesn't make it worth it. I also hate the fact that sites like Imlive (dunno if Streamate does this) charges European customers in euros (not sure if they charge UK guys in pounds, I'll have to remember to ask next time). Anyway yeah, studios are such a ripoff. I'm guessing part of the reason they exist is because internet isn't too great in a lot of third world countries so maybe some girls really can't do it from home.
And I definitely think your braces are bringing in a lot of creeps. Not sure how it is in your country, but in the US most people who have braces are 14-16 give or take so guys will associate it with being in high school. Hopefully you'll get less weirdos when you get them taken off.
MistyRose I agree with you, you have to feel good about yourself. I'm a people-pleaser by nature and I admit that I have a hard time saying "no" when I'm being paid, but I'm getting better. Once I told a guy off in pvt for giving a girl a date rape drug and told him how horrible it would feel to have that done to you, he seemed to feel pretty guilty and said he wouldn't do it anymore, probably lying but I like to think there's a small chance I could've made a difference, haha.
MarvelGirl
02-25-2011, 12:39 AM
I have a question tho, whose answer I can't give yet to myself... In which point do you think fantasy/fetish stops and we start dealing with paraphilia/aka the sick stuff?
When they bring in an actual child or unwilling person. Everything else is between consenting adults and no one should have the right to tell cosenting adults what they can think about while they masturbate.
Bambalina
02-25-2011, 01:10 AM
There is a double edged sword here, and one thing that you have to consider is that there IS a legitimate reason for "studios" in SOME foreign countries. This is the "catch-22" though. because there is a legit purpose.
See, in some countries, CAMMING is illegal, so the only way a girl can earn money camming is to work through a "Studio" who pays off the cops and other authorites. Also in many places internet that is of quality for webcam use is ONLY available at high cost in large city centers, so the vast majority of women can't get it.
Now, I do not condone these studios either since they often pay pennies on the dollar they earn (which is often only 30%-35% of the real dollar thanks to SM) and so they use these women terribly. HOWEVER, for those women it is usually consensual, and they DO get paid much better than being receptionists or cashiers or whatever, in countries where those jobs are just not available. So these studios are a double edged sword. And many of them are almost indiscernible from the human trafficking studios, or are even shared within the same building. I did want to point out though, that it's a very tricky subject.
B
memo_rex
02-25-2011, 02:04 AM
Another thing is, most of those girls cannot afford their own computers. That is why the Internet Cafes are so popular.
Felons_Felony
02-25-2011, 03:15 AM
I'm a first-generation Filipina; this is, needless to say, a bit of a point of concern of mine. I'm mostly referring to Luzon -- the main island, where Manila is -- in this post
This is going to end up being really long. I'm sorry; I'm drunk, tired, and had a hard day working my "clothed job."
A bit of context: the Philippines has, essentially, served as Southeast Asia's "raping bag" for the better part of its history. I mean this in a really serious way, because it goes beyond a dismissive government and into more pervasive cultural roots. After being conquered by Spain, Catholic missionaries were sent to convert the indigenous people -- most of whom rejected the religion at first but eventually had no real say in the matter. This religious influence has led to one of the worst, worst, worst sexual ed. systems in the world. My grandmother was sixteen when she married my grandfather, a much older man. My grandfather had managed to convince her, after doing nothing more than stealing a kiss, that she'd fallen pregnant. She went on to bear seven children.
There's both a reproductive ignorance and an obligatory Catholic strike against reproductive rights. I could go on for miles and miles, having been raised American, about how far behind we as Pinoys are in treating women. Admittedly, it's led to a lot of complexes I have as a dancer; my mother has always been a naturally beautiful woman, appearing exotic & foreign to Western men (among them, my father), which has over the years allowed her to live comfortably. Drawing the parallel between dancers and women like my mother -- both of whom make a living off of an attractive appearance -- often leaves me with a sense of guilt. My father, a cynical old Jewish ex-Air Force officer, took care to remind me that the only thing easier than being a hot chick was being a hot chick who actually knew what she was doing with life.
But that's not really the point I was trying to make. I just needed to get it off my chest.
The point I was trying to make is that the Philippines hasn't really grasped the concept of "reproductive rights." There are a whole fucking lot of us. I consider my family lucky because my mother & father met by happenstance, married, and a new opportunity was born. A lot of us got the chance to emigrate; others stayed behind and kept to farms & small businesses, receiving support from my mother. However, that sort of self-sustainable lifestyle is actually really, really difficult to accomplish in the third world. You'd be surprised. My grandmother actually worked as a seamstress in a sweatshop for a number of years before my parents met & married. And if you think the sex industry in Thailand has a reputation...
The age of consent in the Philippines is twelve; the age of consent for prostitution is eighteen. That said, the definition of "prostitution" is blurred. Keeping in mind the fact that most women are wildly uneducated about the matters of sex before childbirth, it's definitely plausible for human rights to come into question. It's not really about malice, though; it's about money. If you mate a third-world economy with what I consider a deep social plague, there's a lot of room for exploitation. It stops being "I'm being mistreated, I'm being exploited, and I as a human have rights & dignity" and starts sounding more like "My family needs me."
My mother -- like a lot of women who emigrate to the America from third-world countries, who seek opportunity and some semblance of a future -- has blossomed into, shall we say, a much more "enlightened, liberated, Americanized" woman of her time. She began using birth control after I was born, encouraged honesty rather than authority during my "coming-of-age." The thing of it is, you can never really completely abandon deeply-embedded traditional tendencies. I'd confided in her once about a friend of mine in high school whose stepfather was molesting her; her response was, "That makes sense; she always dressed like kind of a slut." This sort of caused a rift between us during my adolescence, after I was raped and could never let her find out for fear of evoking a sense of shame (I told my father later on and he agreed with my decision), but at the same time I bear a forgiveness for her because that's what we were raised with in the Philippines, and I'm just glad that I wasn't raised there for very long.
Because, beyond the often-strong family ties relatives have with one another, it's not really an environment conducive to feminine safety.
The question still exists, though: This is horrible; what do we do to help?
I'd like to think I've tried to answer that question simply in relaying a firsthand account of culture. Knowing the origins of a problem always makes it easier to suggest a solution. Reproductive rights are human rights, just as female genital mutilation is becoming more widely recognized as a monstrosity rather than an accepted practice. It goes beyond women choosing whether or not to bear children and into women having the education & mental capacity to choose whether or not they should. Additionally, since so much of the issue revolves around poverty, checking into nonprofit organizations and charities which seek to send aid to third-world nations, particularly ones where the sex industry is exploitative, is a good call.
But these are all part of the greater picture. What about the individuals? What about the girls whose faces really do show up on the screen? There do exist watchdog groups that seek to police the web, magazines, and black markets for human trafficking. There's also INTERPOL (the international police coalition). The issue gets trickier when you consider international vs. national law -- for example: mail-order bride magazines based out of Russia often recruit women from Belarus, but the Belarusian govt. can't really say anything because the companies aren't based in Belarus. I think I'll compose a list of relevant links tomorrow when I'm done working.
This was probably a lot longer than anyone actually really wanted to read. Hell, it's four o'clock in the morning here, and ended up being a lot longer than I really wanted to write. However, taking my familial background into consideration brings me a real sense of redemption as a dancer in the first-world. It takes the bastardization away from something enjoyable & pleasurable, puts the experience back into my hands. To every "feminist" who has ever questioned whether or not we girls are doing this of free will & sound mind, the answer should be pretty fucking obvious after reading this:
Yes, and I'm damn grateful.
laurielegs
02-25-2011, 03:24 AM
That was an awesome post, extremely interesting glimpse into Filipina culture and history.
To every "feminist" who has ever questioned whether or not we girls are doing this of free will & sound mind, the answer should be pretty fucking obvious after reading this:
Yes, and I'm damn grateful.
and I second that! :) Definitely.
Wonderful, rich post. I was enthralled. Thank you for the cultural insight.
Felons_Felony
02-25-2011, 03:42 AM
That was an awesome post, extremely interesting glimpse into Filipina culture and history.
and I second that! :) Definitely.
An ex-boyfriend of mine and I used to fight over that all the damn time. He was a self-proclaimed feminist and loved to dole out so-called statistics about the majority of legitimate sex workers -- dancers, cam girls, adult actresses, etc. -- were victims of rape, abuse, incest, etc. and, therefore, could not make the decision to do sex work "in their right minds." I thought this was so abhorrently offensive and fucking disgusting of someone who claimed to have faith in women to say.
laurielegs
02-25-2011, 03:58 AM
An ex-boyfriend of mine and I used to fight over that all the damn time. He was a self-proclaimed feminist and loved to dole out so-called statistics about the majority of legitimate sex workers -- dancers, cam girls, adult actresses, etc. -- were victims of rape, abuse, incest, etc. and, therefore, could not make the decision to do sex work "in their right minds." I thought this was so abhorrently offensive and fucking disgusting of someone who claimed to have faith in women to say.
That seems to be the mainstream view of sex workers of any type including cam hosts. I've been in this biz for years and from what I've seen, nothing could be further from the truth.
Of course the media especially loves to dig and dig until they find *one* stereotypical sex worker among probably hundreds they had to go through to fit their preconceived ideas and say this is typical.
xxxevexxx
02-25-2011, 06:15 AM
Although I didn't think exactly this (but I should have), what I frequently wonder about that matter is whether guys who ask things like that aren't "proto-pedophiles" who might start their activities with, but not exclusively, camming. No one suddenly wakes up and think "hey, I think I wanna start molesting children today". They might try this kind of role play to make sure they really get off with that, to experiment, test reactions, even to try to repress their urges for a while... What makes me hugely bothered is that I think if I play along, rather than just saying "I think that's sick", I might plant a seed that encourages the guy to think he might get away with it, after all, I didn't seem so shocked. It's possible that I'm being paranoid, and that maybe just one in a million of guys who ask for that kind of thing is really a pedophile. I just don't wanna spend the rest of my life wondering if that guy I helped to get off wasn't really a pedophile looking for some kind of reassurance.
I see what you mean missmagnolia, I'm should Pedophiles have to start somewhere just like serial killers start somewhere. No not all little boys that kill or hurt small animal when they are kids turned into serial killers, but some do. I think it's probally the same thing here, which is why I cant justify "punishing" them for this because you never know if it's just a fantasy and will always be just that and nothing more. I have some rather odd fantasies like others mentioned and when I was younger I really put myself down for having these feelings and would never want to actually have them happen to me in real life. I don't think many active pedolphiles would want to role play with a grown women, I think once they get to that stage theres no going back and theres no half way to satisfy their urges. I may be wrong though.
xxxevexxx
02-25-2011, 06:29 AM
I'm a first-generation Filipina; this is, needless to say, a bit of a point of concern of mine. I'm mostly referring to Luzon -- the main island, where Manila is -- in this post
This is going to end up being really long. I'm sorry; I'm drunk, tired, and had a hard day working my "clothed job."
A bit of context: the Philippines has, essentially, served as Southeast Asia's "raping bag" for the better part of its history. I mean this in a really serious way, because it goes beyond a dismissive government and into more pervasive cultural roots. After being conquered by Spain, Catholic missionaries were sent to convert the indigenous people -- most of whom rejected the religion at first but eventually had no real say in the matter. This religious influence has led to one of the worst, worst, worst sexual ed. systems in the world. My grandmother was sixteen when she married my grandfather, a much older man. My grandfather had managed to convince her, after doing nothing more than stealing a kiss, that she'd fallen pregnant. She went on to bear seven children.
There's both a reproductive ignorance and an obligatory Catholic strike against reproductive rights. I could go on for miles and miles, having been raised American, about how far behind we as Pinoys are in treating women. Admittedly, it's led to a lot of complexes I have as a dancer; my mother has always been a naturally beautiful woman, appearing exotic & foreign to Western men (among them, my father), which has over the years allowed her to live comfortably. Drawing the parallel between dancers and women like my mother -- both of whom make a living off of an attractive appearance -- often leaves me with a sense of guilt. My father, a cynical old Jewish ex-Air Force officer, took care to remind me that the only thing easier than being a hot chick was being a hot chick who actually knew what she was doing with life.
But that's not really the point I was trying to make. I just needed to get it off my chest.
The point I was trying to make is that the Philippines hasn't really grasped the concept of "reproductive rights." There are a whole fucking lot of us. I consider my family lucky because my mother & father met by happenstance, married, and a new opportunity was born. A lot of us got the chance to emigrate; others stayed behind and kept to farms & small businesses, receiving support from my mother. However, that sort of self-sustainable lifestyle is actually really, really difficult to accomplish in the third world. You'd be surprised. My grandmother actually worked as a seamstress in a sweatshop for a number of years before my parents met & married. And if you think the sex industry in Thailand has a reputation...
The age of consent in the Philippines is twelve; the age of consent for prostitution is eighteen. That said, the definition of "prostitution" is blurred. Keeping in mind the fact that most women are wildly uneducated about the matters of sex before childbirth, it's definitely plausible for human rights to come into question. It's not really about malice, though; it's about money. If you mate a third-world economy with what I consider a deep social plague, there's a lot of room for exploitation. It stops being "I'm being mistreated, I'm being exploited, and I as a human have rights & dignity" and starts sounding more like "My family needs me."
My mother -- like a lot of women who emigrate to the America from third-world countries, who seek opportunity and some semblance of a future -- has blossomed into, shall we say, a much more "enlightened, liberated, Americanized" woman of her time. She began using birth control after I was born, encouraged honesty rather than authority during my "coming-of-age." The thing of it is, you can never really completely abandon deeply-embedded traditional tendencies. I'd confided in her once about a friend of mine in high school whose stepfather was molesting her; her response was, "That makes sense; she always dressed like kind of a slut." This sort of caused a rift between us during my adolescence, after I was raped and could never let her find out for fear of evoking a sense of shame (I told my father later on and he agreed with my decision), but at the same time I bear a forgiveness for her because that's what we were raised with in the Philippines, and I'm just glad that I wasn't raised there for very long.
Because, beyond the often-strong family ties relatives have with one another, it's not really an environment conducive to feminine safety.
The question still exists, though: This is horrible; what do we do to help?
I'd like to think I've tried to answer that question simply in relaying a firsthand account of culture. Knowing the origins of a problem always makes it easier to suggest a solution. Reproductive rights are human rights, just as female genital mutilation is becoming more widely recognized as a monstrosity rather than an accepted practice. It goes beyond women choosing whether or not to bear children and into women having the education & mental capacity to choose whether or not they should. Additionally, since so much of the issue revolves around poverty, checking into nonprofit organizations and charities which seek to send aid to third-world nations, particularly ones where the sex industry is exploitative, is a good call.
But these are all part of the greater picture. What about the individuals? What about the girls whose faces really do show up on the screen? There do exist watchdog groups that seek to police the web, magazines, and black markets for human trafficking. There's also INTERPOL (the international police coalition). The issue gets trickier when you consider international vs. national law -- for example: mail-order bride magazines based out of Russia often recruit women from Belarus, but the Belarusian govt. can't really say anything because the companies aren't based in Belarus. I think I'll compose a list of relevant links tomorrow when I'm done working.
This was probably a lot longer than anyone actually really wanted to read. Hell, it's four o'clock in the morning here, and ended up being a lot longer than I really wanted to write. However, taking my familial background into consideration brings me a real sense of redemption as a dancer in the first-world. It takes the bastardization away from something enjoyable & pleasurable, puts the experience back into my hands. To every "feminist" who has ever questioned whether or not we girls are doing this of free will & sound mind, the answer should be pretty fucking obvious after reading this:
Yes, and I'm damn grateful.
Thank you so much, very good post ::) I have to admit though it makes me sad and feel a bit hopeless, from what I've read about other poor sisations in foreign countries, Iraq for example when something is grained into the people and it becomes the norm for them it makes it very very difficult to change things. Like your mother for example, even after changing her veiws a lot and living in america still had some veiws that would probally never change. I am very ahppy you're here and not there I'm sure there are some good points of the phillipines but waht a distorted veiw on human rights and everything else.:-\
pushit69
02-25-2011, 01:38 PM
i understand where you are coming from bamb.
maybe i shouldn't pay my taxes cause I know that money is used to help fill politicians pockets and fund wars.
If you buy anything non organic you are helping to support Monsantos(http://organicconsumers.org/monsanto/crimes.cfm) crazy fucked up business practices which affect farmers as well as your health. FUCK GMO lol
If you buy gas -you're fucking the environment. etccc
the list is endless
and yes I hate streamate and all big box pimps.
Cyrano22
02-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Great thread ladies .. Thank you. I have learned of lots of new information about the studios in the Philippines reading you here. Bambalina requested that I mention some of the resources already available on the CGN Forum might prove helpful for your research.. So I will. The reading rooms are pretty easy to navigate and have been used by my own Poli Sci students to good effect.
First: We have a map and list of Adult Video Chat studio locations in the CGN Reading room in my Preliminary Research findings here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=5
If you look at the Philippines what immediately leaps out at you is the fact that most of the Studios in and around Manila are located in the areas that used to cater to the US Military when we had bases at Subic Bay and then were re-deployed to attract sex tourists from Australia and Western Europe once the bases were closed..So already this is sort of red warning flag going up....
We have had several Filipina models members and two studio owners posting over the past year.
You can find their posts in "The Situation in Asia" in our Reading Room.
What the Filipina Myumi says in her responses to my questionnaire are especially relevant. She admits to being underage (15) when she started camming in an adult studio.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1149&st=25&#entry11748
And this seems pretty common in the Philippine studios. But at the same time: She; Dragon and Camsculptor all claim that camming is an alternative to actual street prostitution; a gate way out of- rather than a portal going into - real time sex work. You can find some of their posts in this thread.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1768
then to see the rest click on their member name and see all posts made by this member.
I have heard pretty much the same thing from countries like Moldavia or the Ukraine - that the cam studios are an alternative to the economic emigration overseas that makes you vulnerable to being trafficked. or an alternative to actually catering to sex tourists in cities like Bucharest, Kyif or Odessa.. Ofc, now that some studios in Romania and lots of independent models are raffling off "dates" and weekends" with customers on MFC, this claim is subject to challenge but in general I think that it still stands true that camming is a way of staying in your home country and in school without actually having some stranger in your room - or more to the point actually coming inside you...If your research can establish something different I will be mighty interested and very appreciative if you share it here.
There are lots more reports and posts on trafficking issues in Eastern Europe, Latin America and the Russias that can be found in the different "Country reports" in that same section. They are all titled "The Situation in XXX"
BTW, I know we have a terrible reputation on this board, but for what it's worth I promise that no angry or creepy "hobbyists" are lying in ambush for you on CGN - at least in the Reading Rooms of the forum..lol
Anybody can access that part of the forum as a guest and copy or print out any posts that you think are relevant.
Good luck and Happy Hunting
UL
CGN Global Moderator
Felons_Felony
02-25-2011, 03:51 PM
I see what you mean missmagnolia, I'm should Pedophiles have to start somewhere just like serial killers start somewhere. No not all little boys that kill or hurt small animal when they are kids turned into serial killers, but some do. I think it's probally the same thing here, which is why I cant justify "punishing" them for this because you never know if it's just a fantasy and will always be just that and nothing more. I have some rather odd fantasies like others mentioned and when I was younger I really put myself down for having these feelings and would never want to actually have them happen to me in real life. I don't think many active pedolphiles would want to role play with a grown women, I think once they get to that stage theres no going back and theres no half way to satisfy their urges. I may be wrong though.
Something that comes to mind is the nature of BDSM. Do people exist who use D&S roleplaying as a stepping stone for less-consensual acts of sadism? Probably, but there's a difference.
Dancing Days
02-26-2011, 06:39 AM
Yesterday, I was chatting with a young Streamate model from Belarus (small country bordering Poland, Ukraine and Russia). We started chatting because I'm fluent in Russian and she was surprised that I wasn't speaking English to her. She and I wound up chatting for over an hour and I happened to have $20 free credits on my member account so I gave it to her as Gold when we were chatting.
She told me that she only gets 17% of everything she makes, but I'm not sure if that means 17% of the 100% guys pay OR 17% of the 35% Streamate pays out...I really really hope it's the former one. She was pretty open with me about the studio, because I was upfront with her about also being a Streamate model and even gave her my name on there. I asked her how she found this job and she said she answered an ad in the newspaper which was looking for girls who have at least a basic knowledge of English. When she showed up, she was told what the job was and being desperate, she took it. In her words - "imagine my shock when they told me what I had to do"
The studio makes them earn at least $600 a week or else they have to pay the studio! She is 19, working to support her mother and also to try and live on her own, but she can't do that yet so she is splitting an apartment with another girl.
I was born in Belarus myself, so I really connected with her and it really felt like chatting with a friend. She was very sweet and genuine with me....like she broke all of the barriers she puts up every time she logs on. She told me this was her first time back on cam in 3 weeks, as she's been really sick, but now she's running out of money and needs to make it back quickly. I didn't believe she was in any sort of physical danger, so I asked her if she knew that she could be doing this independently from a studio. SHE SAID THAT THERE WAS A LAW IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES (CIS - OLD SOVIET COUNTRIES) THAT MODELS CANNOT CAM ON THEIR OWN AND HAVE TO GO THROUGH A STUDIO.
Now, I know for a fact that is not true (as I've seen girls in Russia camming on their own) and also I highly doubt that a union of countries would get together to legislate webcam work. While talking to this girl, I was also chatting with Streamate support and asked them if there are any girls from Belarus, Ukraine or Russia that cam on their own, without studios.
SM: There should be, I guess...Why?
Me: A model from Belarus (country where I was born) is saying that there is some law that says that she can't cam on her own. That sounds super suspicious to me and also sounds like something a cam studio would just make up to pay her less. Just wanted to know truth
SM: there's no law about that in Belarus as far as I know. Now if she signed a contract w a studio I don't know
Me: If they lied to her about it, can't she be released from her agreement w/ them?
SM: u r probably right sounds like a trick from the studio. Nothing we can do though, the girl is employed by the studio. we verified that the studio is legit and everything's good nothing about the honesty unfortunately. legally I guess she could. She needs to read her contract and get help to see if it's legal. I never understand how a girl can go w a studio, it's not that we are hard to find right?
Me: In Belarus, they don't even know what Streamate or camming is. Most of them don't have cams. She said she answered a newspaper ad that basically said you can earn money fast, and when she showed up, they told her what it was.
SM: and they don't read their contract?
Me: In Belarus, a lot of the girls are naive and they are desperate for money
SM: and it's true they can make a lot compared to what they make there. but like any job u have to read the contract.
Me: It's a really poor country and they usually have no other way to get by. It's just sad that studios take advantage of them.
SM: if it's an exclusive contract and a non compete or whatever they she can leave but won't be able to work again w us. I know it's sad. Lots of people take advantage of the weakest and I wish I could help them all. I don't like that.
Me: Me neither. I am going back to Belarus in 1 1/2 years to live there for 2 years and I just want to chat w/ the girls that live there now to see what the situation is like. I almost want to start my own service to hook them up w/ cams so they can do it themselves & keep it all
SM: or u can start your own studio and recruit them. u can take a tiny % like 2%-3% what serious studios do usually. don't get me wrong thee's lots of serious studios that real provide help and do paperwork and support...and that deserve %
Me: I would if you guys paid out a bigger percentage, but you know how that goes... I'd rather help them make their own $. I'd have a way to make my own money there, so why can't they, you know?
That's where Streamate stopped responding (struck a nerve?) but they do have a point. Cams here are much cheaper than they are over there. I had an idea of helping the girls over there in some way, which would include bringing a few relatively cheap cams over there and using an apartment I own over there to make a studio with fast internet and I would be literally training them in how to do it. I wouldn't make them sign any super complicated contract, but would be going on good faith because these girls are very nice and very trusting, and I feel like if I put them on a site with a higher payout (like SkinVideo or another site w/ a high payout), they'd be earning a lot more money than they are w/ the studio - FOR LESS WORK.
I'd probably only charge them a maximum of 5% (since, unlike those studio sleazeballs, I'd have a way to make $ camming on my own and won't be milking the models), and they'd get to keep the rest. I wouldn't even want to profit from this service, just cover my costs. I love the country where I was born and want to put these girls in a better financial position.
Just my 2 cents.
missmagnolia
02-26-2011, 07:25 AM
What happened to me was pretty similar, when I was recruited by this studio I was talking about. They don't tell you right away what percentage you will make (in the room they provide you to work, they put signs with different prizes you will receive according to what you make each week). They also say it's easy to make those numbers. That was in Brazil by the way, it worked more or less like this: I received R$500 as a salary (at that time, this was equivalent to U$250), no matter how much I made, but, if after 2 months I wasn't able to do at least U$350 a week, they would fire me. I would only receive a "bonus" if I made more than U$350 a week, and that was 50% of what exceeded these U$350. If I made more than U$500 every week of the month, I would receive R$500 (U$250) as a bonus. They kinda make it complicated with all these bonuses so you think there's a possibility of earning a lot of money when actually, to receive the big bonuses, you have to reach unreal numbers...
They made sign a contract. But of course I knew that was bullshit... I doubt very much that any country in this world would have a specific legislation about camming... Maybe if Streamate gives the Studio the power of acting on their behalf in certain countries? I don't know why would they do that... But of course camming can't be illegal for an independent performer... I imagine camming must be illegal in some countries in the sense that it is producing pornography or something, but then it would be illegal no matter what, whether the girl is working for a studio or from home.
I doubt very much that any of these studios are legal as far as labor laws of these countries are concerned. At least in Brazil, where this studio I worked for was located, it's illegal to hire someone to do any kind of regular, "non-eventual" work without registering the persona as an employee and giving money for transportation/meals/health care, as well as paying taxes to the government. I could sue the studio actually by the time I left (I only stayed two weeks till I figured out it was a bad idea) for hiring me "informally". I doubt they were even registered as a company.
But yes, it was easier for me to work for them at first. They had a pretty room with a sofa, lots of outfits, 3 cams, a good computer and internet, a lot of shoes and stuff to use to take pictures (cameras, lights, and even a lady who helped us with that)... Id I had to buy that all at once I would have to invest a lot of money, as hardware/good webcams are more expensive due to importations duties. A Logitech 9000 costs about U$300 here, but there are other webcams that are produced here... I don't know how this works in Belarus.
Tell her about other sites that won't ask her to sign up under a studio, maybe? If she says the problem is that cams aren't available or are too expensive, or that she has to pay taxes to import them, you can send one to her and declare as a used gift (it works here, I have no idea about Belarus).
Yeah, but I think the main problem is that many of these girls still live with their families and don't have a proper set up to cam from their homes... They share a computer with the whole house in a common room or something like that. That's how they "lure" them... But if she's living with another girl (unless the apartment is provided by the studio, that may be possible) I don;t see why she wouldn't try to change that. Even if camming was illegal, how the hell would someone discover?
xxxevexxx
02-26-2011, 08:53 AM
Wow dancing days that would be amazing if you could do that, I imagine it would be quite a bit of money for start what with computers, webcams, lighting and whatever elsew they might need, but if you think you could pull it off that would deffinatly help those girls out a lot. Can you imagine all the things they could do with that money that actually mean something?? If they did it on their own or with some help from you as a 'studio' they could take care of their family if need be and themselves. (: Do you think there is anyway to get some help with funding to start something like this..? I don't know if too many vanilla people would support it financially because to them it prob. loooks just as bad as sending the girls out on the streets to hook, people are so diluted, but if u could find a person or company willing to help a little(wouldnt take to much) it could really take off without much of a struggle.
Dancing Days
02-26-2011, 09:21 AM
Eve, I just want to start it small and I don't want to advertise it in the newspaper like the other studios do. I added the girl I was talking to on Facebook and she also gave me her email. I also told her that I'll be coming to Belarus in 18 months. I own a home in the country and also an apartment in a major city in Belarus which is only 20 mins away from the country home. My husband wants to live in the country home so I think I'll either rent out the apartment (which is in the HEART of the city) or use it as a studio. I don't have to pay mortgage or any taxes on either of these two residences, so there won't be any expenses in that regard. Internet will most likely be the BIGGEST expense I will encounter.
To give you a bigger picture of how people live there, the average Belarussian makes $200 a month. I could continue camming on my own and running a non-XXX business, so my money won't be coming from the girls. I could invest in a few good laptops and a few cams that I can stash in my luggage that I can use for the studio and actually teach them English and also teach them how to cam properly and not just sit there, looking bored.
I feel like that would turn their lives upside down and allow them to pay their bills without feeling used. I've always wanted to be a journalist just so I could make a positive difference in the world, and when I achieved that goal by working for a huge international TV company, I didn't feel that I accomplished anything at all. At least by helping these girls, I would be able to literally inject money into the Belarussian economy and empower the girls so they don't feel like cheap internet prostitutes.
xxxevexxx
02-26-2011, 09:55 AM
I think this is very nobel of you and i hope it all works out. These girls deserve a chance to have a better life with more oppritunities. When did you move away from there?
Dancing Days
02-26-2011, 10:18 AM
I moved to America in Dec of 1998, so I've been here for a while. Before that, I also lived in St. Petersburg, Russia. I've been feeling the pull to go back recently, and my husband is awesome enough to go with me even though traveling isn't his thing. I plan to go there, start a non-XXX business and then travel all over Europe by car and train. :) I can't wait to get this started!
ukmissy
02-26-2011, 11:35 AM
I remember several years ago ( well more like 8 now !!! ) I was rejected by a couple of major camsites when I put 'UK ' on my application . The camsites mailed me and informed me that because I was from the Ukraine I could not join up through the site its self, but was obliged to join a local studio . They made it clear this was the ONLY way I could work for them . The camsites told me they had contracts with the local studios which prevented them from hiring girls in certain areas without the middle man ( studio ) ...... I'm thinking this could be similar to what the girl was talking about ...... Anyway , I soon realized they had misunderstood my location , and mailed them back to let them know I meant United Kingdom (UK ) and not Ukraine !!!!! ( strange considering I mailed in a British passport ) Once they realized I am in fact in Britain and not in Eastern Europe - they let me join as normal !!!! It did however give me a small insight into what girls from these areas face when joining !
Things may be different now - but that's how it was then .
Missy
Cyrano22
02-26-2011, 11:38 AM
I thought that this interview with Katerina - a Top Ukrainian Studio Model who just retired from camming last year - might shed some light on the working conditions in the Ukrainian studios.
Note that Katerina's interview confirms what was said by HappyGirl in 2007 that the Ukrainian Studio models are not only subject to police harassment and shakedowns during Militia raids - but that they can then be blackmailed to work in Militia owned studios under threat of criminal prosecution..It's almost like a case of virtuall "indentured servitude" that's being carried out by the legal authorities themselves.
No wonder then that the Ukraine ranks 99 out of 200 countries on the World Corruption Index..
It's also one of the poorest countries in Europe in terms of per capita income as well as one of the principal countries of origin for women trafficked overseas.
UL
This is the edited transcript with Katerina - a Ukrainian cam model who used to appear on MFC and Peeks. She has reviewed this transcript and agreed to let me post it here as an update to our earlier posts on working conditions in the Ukrainian studios.
Here's the link to the original post on CGN:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=2693&st=0&#entry18515
And another to Katerina's comments on the recent Militia raid on a web-cam studio in
Krivoy Rog: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=2686&st=0
What's interesting about this interview is that Katerina confirms absolutely what we were told earlier by Happygirl in 2007 about police ownership of some studios or their control of the other studios they regularly shake down for "protection rents."
Here's Happy Girls original post from 2007.
Posted: December 22, 2007 08:08 am
Group: Models
Member No.: 208
Joined: December 17, 2007
"You will never imagine how much the Ukrainian government
is corrupted ,and the police is the most corrupted area. I have been in
this business quite a long time, and have my word to say on this. The
police's goal is to find a studio and get the boss to pay a month rent
for the business or they ask to open them a studio where they put a police
police officer in charge. To tell you more, I once was working as a model in police studio..
And I was also almost put in jail one time..but our boss did all the police asked..."
Now Here's Katerina account from this week that confirms what Happygirl said above:
"----- Our chat on Mon, 2/21/11 3:29 PM -----
Katerina I am not camming now - only studying - so I can tell u now more about the Ukrainian studios if u want. I can tell u why I left [my studio and MFC].
UL: Oh! Please continue.
Katerina: I left cause this business starts to become too dirty in the Ukraine.
Please don’t be pissed off, but those posts on your forum and the info you have, is just not how it is. You guys see it from a distance…
Katerina: And actually when I read stuff on the Forum, I felt like I was reading teenagers discussing sex. Lol. I mean it was like I was reading people who didn’t know anything about the issue. lmao
UL): Ofc we didn’t know much, but we did have many inside [studio UL] informants who talked to us – but some only once they had left the Ukraine. Now you are our informant, and our resident “in-country expert” too…lol.
So how dirty is dirty? Mafya? Militia?
Katerina: Hey, we’re not in Italy, UL))). No mafia. Of course, it’s all about the Militia [National Police, UL]and the politicians. That’s why they wont legalize this business
UL: Because they can collect much more in "protection rents, " if it remains illegal?
Katerina: well, what we have in the Ukraine isn’t called the mafia. It’s called "criminal circles"
The web business is controlled mostly by the Militia - not criminals.
In Ukraine you can have more trust in the criminals than the militia.
UL So why did you say the business was too dirty?
Katerina. Because the number of cases when studios won’t let models leave is increasing.
If the models work directly with militia its 100% one way ticket [into AdultVideoChat?UL]. They get used to the money that you earn or are paid and then you find that cant leave when you want.
The studio owners are becoming more dirty-handed .They can u say you cant leave cause they will show everybody who you were [online UL]. Or they can ask the militia come to your home. The worst is that they can threaten your health by hurting you [physically UL] etc. Even I don’t want to continue [to work under these conditions UL]. Of course some studio owners are normal people but most of them only care about money.
UL: So were you threatened when you left?
Katerina: No, I said that I am moving. I am lucky that I live in a big city [Dnep] and they don’t know where I live.
UL: So here's the question I wanted to ask you[last month]. What are you paid on Peeks and MFC per minute for group and private shows
Katerina I was paid 50% on MFC. A pvt is 60 tokens per min, so I’d get 30 tokens from pv’t sessions. That’s 1,5 USD per min. The group payments depended.
UL): Okay that’s the same as in the Romanian Studios or anywhere else in Central Europe. It used to be that the Kyif models on PF were paid 0.30 t0 0.40 USD per minute in private back in 2006/2006. Much less than people were paid in Bucharest or Prague or even Moscow. Ofc, that was four years ago.
Katerina: In Russia the studios pay from 60- 90 % to the girls. The payout depends on how much the model earns because in Russia this business is semi-legal. In the Ukraine it’s 100% illegal -even though we don’t have any exact laws and punishment against it. So the studios pay between 10- 45% - not more. Only the top girls get 45%. Most get more like 20%.
UL: This is second or third time I have heard about coercion and blackmail in the Ukrainian studios.. Please look at the reports on "Working conditions in the Studios" by camsculptor which were disputed by a Ukrainian studio owner GDS - the owner of the Odessum Studios..
Katerina No I know real names of studio owners - not nicknames. i just cant say them. Most of the studios are so- so. What you get is another model in the room with you, You have two sofas and two curtains behind you and between you. And you hear each other and it’s kind of irritating..lol.
At least in Romania they have decorated rooms. But in the Ukraine most owners want more money so they are for less spending {on studio furnishings and décor,UL].
Katerina: Compared to Russia there are not so many studios in the Ukraine
Most are in Kiev, Kharkiv, Odessa, and Dnepr. The rest suck)
UL: I was asking how many studios in Dnep
Katerina: i think a lot. I know personally of 5 studios but I am sure there exist more
Imaybe 15 - not including those who work from home and pay bribes to the Militia or their former studio. I think it’s kind like 15 in Kiev, Kharkiv and Dnepr each. The number can’t be bigger and cant be much less because the market is divided up)
UL: So you were paid much more than the average studio model. I was told that the average studio salary in Kyif was $300- 400 per month for 1500 minutes with top girls getting between $800 and 1200 per month in Odessa..
Katerina: No I just said what a model gets directly from MFC. I was a top model [in her studio, UL], And my percentage was 45%. So count 45% from 30 tokens per min. I was earning about $6000 per month [for her studio, UL]. Maybe more or less, and I was paid 45% of it. I think its like 2500 usd
UL): about what the top studio girls get in Bucharest.. And much better that the $1200 or $1500 that girls like Jackie and Valerie used to get working on PF in Kiev..And that included sleeping with the Boss..lol
Katerina: I dunno about Kiev studios I just know one top MFC girl in Kiev. She cams from her bedroom - not paying off the studios or the Militia. She is very lucky.
UL: So was our member Happygirl. She used our info on the Forum to go independent and to work from home rather than slaving away for the Militia in Dnepr.
Katerina Well, if u were successful in the studio and they notice that you’re camming from home, then you will have serious problems in your life from then on.
But if the girl was just so- so, she’ll be not of no interest to anybody.
In my case,. I can’t cam now any more.
UL: Why?
Katerina: Lol.. Because I would be popular again. I‘ve already gotten proposals from studios and the Militia to come back and work with them again if I want. Of course I refused…
Bambalina
02-26-2011, 11:47 AM
I'd probably only charge them a maximum of 5% (since, unlike those studio sleazeballs, I'd have a way to make $ camming on my own and won't be milking the models), and they'd get to keep the rest. I wouldn't even want to profit from this service, just cover my costs. I love the country where I was born and want to put these girls in a better financial position.
Just my 2 cents.
First, let me say I adore you. You're excellent!
Secondly...not sure in Belarus, but in MOST eastern bloc countries, the local "mafia" runs the camming, and if you came and helped them get away and took money from the mafias pocket, you might just disappear. Don't disappear..Love ya too much!
B
NoExpectations
02-26-2011, 01:56 PM
I have been reading through this thread. I see lightbulbs turning on etc etc.
This piqued my interest at one point that may be off topic but it is simply an example of a reply to the statement below.
"beleive it becomes an issue , when you no longer think of it as a fantisy , more as need.
Ex: You love porn , You watch porn and think about porn so much , where you cant get satisfaction ,without having porn involved.
When it becomes a need , or obsession ,over just fantisy?"
(just a website to open eyes wider based upon the above quote)
(Sorry have not learned how to use quotes here)
I am not attempting to change the topic or premise of this thread, I feel you all are onto something that does need to be addressed.
Carry On.
Felons_Felony
02-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Re: Dancing Days...
Oh my God, have I told you how much I loved you lately?
My mother is from the Philippines, but my father's family comes from a small country village outside of Brest, Belarus (noticing a trend? it's one of the reasons I'm so adamant about human rights & liberty). Belarus, as an entire nation, is the Eastern Bloc's biggest bitch. I'm not even making that up. They've been trying forever to enact laws keeping young women from getting sucked into Russia's mail-order bride industry, but have been miserably failing because none of those companies are actually Belarusian; they just advertise to desperate Belarusian women.
In the case of the girl from Belarus you talked to, she's pretty obviously being fed the wrong information by the scumfucks she's working for. Starting your own cam site to give girls an alternative, straight-up better option would be AWESOME! I've always wanted to start my own club for that reason!
Dancing Days
02-27-2011, 05:30 AM
I remember several years ago ( well more like 8 now !!! ) I was rejected by a couple of major camsites when I put 'UK ' on my application . The camsites mailed me and informed me that because I was from the Ukraine I could not join up through the site its self, but was obliged to join a local studio . They made it clear this was the ONLY way I could work for them . The camsites told me they had contracts with the local studios which prevented them from hiring girls in certain areas without the middle man ( studio ) ...... I'm thinking this could be similar to what the girl was talking about ...... Anyway , I soon realized they had misunderstood my location , and mailed them back to let them know I meant United Kingdom (UK ) and not Ukraine !!!!! ( strange considering I mailed in a British passport ) Once they realized I am in fact in Britain and not in Eastern Europe - they let me join as normal !!!! It did however give me a small insight into what girls from these areas face when joining !
Things may be different now - but that's how it was then .
Missy
I reeeeeally hope that is not the case right now. As far as I know, Streamate has no such contract w/ cam studios. That definitely gives me some insight as to what's possibly happening here. Regardless, I would technically be a studio as well, as I would be the admin of their profiles (to set them up and whatnot) but I'm sure as hell not going to do it on Streamate. Nobody wins when they only get a small percentage of a small percentage.
Dancing Days
02-27-2011, 05:52 AM
First, let me say I adore you. You're excellent!
Secondly...not sure in Belarus, but in MOST eastern bloc countries, the local "mafia" runs the camming, and if you came and helped them get away and took money from the mafias pocket, you might just disappear. Don't disappear..Love ya too much!
B
That's precisely why I do not plan on advertising in the newspaper or on making myself known. I want to keep in contact w/ the girl I was chatting with on SM and maybe ask her if she'd like to move to the city where I would be living - which will also give her an excuse to leave the studio she is with now. We would start from there, just with 1 girl and go by word of mouth.
As for the mafia aspect, it's not the criminals you have to watch out for. Just like the Ukrainian model said - it's the POLICE. The government and the police are pretty corrupt over there and act as criminals without ever being busted.
HOWEVER, this is a BONUS - my older brother happens to be a high-ranking police detective in that same city, so if I encounter any problems w/ the police, he'll back me up. My father is also very well known and respected there. Not to mention that I'll be there with an American passport, which is like saying that I'll be untouchable. If the cops want to harass me, all I have to do is call up the American consulate and the problem magically goes away. ;) You'd be surprised how much people fear Americans over there.
Dancing Days
02-27-2011, 06:24 AM
Re: Dancing Days...
Oh my God, have I told you how much I loved you lately?
My mother is from the Philippines, but my father's family comes from a small country village outside of Brest, Belarus (noticing a trend? it's one of the reasons I'm so adamant about human rights & liberty). Belarus, as an entire nation, is the Eastern Bloc's biggest bitch. I'm not even making that up. They've been trying forever to enact laws keeping young women from getting sucked into Russia's mail-order bride industry, but have been miserably failing because none of those companies are actually Belarusian; they just advertise to desperate Belarusian women.
In the case of the girl from Belarus you talked to, she's pretty obviously being fed the wrong information by the scumfucks she's working for. Starting your own cam site to give girls an alternative, straight-up better option would be AWESOME! I've always wanted to start my own club for that reason!
Wow!! Small world!
Brest is on the totally opposite side of Belarus from the city I'll be living in (Brest is close to the Poland border, but I'll be close to the Ukraine border).
Belarus, from what I understand, is torn between the old and the new way of doing things. So the majority is still poverty-stricken, living on farms and village communities...while there is also a new 'elite' popping up with a lot of money to spend. Who knows how many of those new 'entrepreneurs' are actually studio scumbags? Probably too many. :/
The Belarussian girl I was talking to seemed so...okay...with the way things are going, because she probably has no idea that things don't HAVE to be that way. She got mad at the fact that the studio lied to her, but didn't seem surprised or outraged. In her position, however, she's probably just happy to have a job.
I want to set my service up where these girls only have to work one day a week and still have more than enough money to pay all of their expenses and live on their own. Considering how expensive American money is over there and how much it can get you (ever seen EuroTrip? they got an executive hotel suite in Slovakia for $2?), there is NO WAY that a beautiful Belarussian webcam model should be stressing out because of money issues. Of course, my EuroTrip example is highly exaggerated, but your money is worth a lot more over there, which is another reason why I'll be using Belarus as my hub while I travel all over Europe. Unfortunately, the studio scumfucks take over 80% of her money...because they can and because they know she won't be able to cam from home.
If I could, I would just give laptops and cams to these girls and tell them to do it from home, but that still won't solve the problem of internet access. Internet over there is EXPENSIVE, especially the kind you need to do a cam show. I would provide the internet and also the equipment to do it. There are also plenty of solo girl models online...I'd probably have the girls do g/g shows on sites w/ high payout, so there would be more interest in the show and more $ flowing in. For a while, it would probably be me and the other girl (lucky for me, the Belarussian girl is bi), so even if we have to split it 50/50, there would STILL be a lot of money coming in for the girl cause guys fucking go nuts when they see a g/g show is about to start and tip like crazy....and then the girls disappear into a private show for like an hour. And if both girls are cute, then TWO hours. ;)
Sorry, just thinking out loud...
On a separate note, I believe that the studio she works for is also laundering money, because she said that one of the guys she works with (most likely, FOR) wanted to take her into private show. So who knows how else these studios make their money...
Felons_Felony
02-27-2011, 02:49 PM
Wow!! Small world!
Brest is on the totally opposite side of Belarus from the city I'll be living in (Brest is close to the Poland border, but I'll be close to the Ukraine border).
Belarus, from what I understand, is torn between the old and the new way of doing things. So the majority is still poverty-stricken, living on farms and village communities...while there is also a new 'elite' popping up with a lot of money to spend. Who knows how many of those new 'entrepreneurs' are actually studio scumbags? Probably too many. :/
The Belarussian girl I was talking to seemed so...okay...with the way things are going, because she probably has no idea that things don't HAVE to be that way. She got mad at the fact that the studio lied to her, but didn't seem surprised or outraged. In her position, however, she's probably just happy to have a job.
I want to set my service up where these girls only have to work one day a week and still have more than enough money to pay all of their expenses and live on their own. Considering how expensive American money is over there and how much it can get you (ever seen EuroTrip? they got an executive hotel suite in Slovakia for $2?), there is NO WAY that a beautiful Belarussian webcam model should be stressing out because of money issues. Of course, my EuroTrip example is highly exaggerated, but your money is worth a lot more over there, which is another reason why I'll be using Belarus as my hub while I travel all over Europe. Unfortunately, the studio scumfucks take over 80% of her money...because they can and because they know she won't be able to cam from home.
If I could, I would just give laptops and cams to these girls and tell them to do it from home, but that still won't solve the problem of internet access. Internet over there is EXPENSIVE, especially the kind you need to do a cam show. I would provide the internet and also the equipment to do it. There are also plenty of solo girl models online...I'd probably have the girls do g/g shows on sites w/ high payout, so there would be more interest in the show and more $ flowing in. For a while, it would probably be me and the other girl (lucky for me, the Belarussian girl is bi), so even if we have to split it 50/50, there would STILL be a lot of money coming in for the girl cause guys fucking go nuts when they see a g/g show is about to start and tip like crazy....and then the girls disappear into a private show for like an hour. And if both girls are cute, then TWO hours. ;)
Sorry, just thinking out loud...
On a separate note, I believe that the studio she works for is also laundering money, because she said that one of the guys she works with (most likely, FOR) wanted to take her into private show. So who knows how else these studios make their money...
I wouldn't be surprised if they were laundering money. It's a problem in the US as well, and there's a lot more of that influence on the other side.
The exchange rate is both a blessing and a curse as far as this goes, I'd think. Considering how much a US dollar is worth over there, it wouldn't take very much to start your own studio -- which would supply the building, Internet, hardware & software, etc. for the girls, as well as creating a much safer environment that doesn't exploit them. But then there's the fierce venom of competition. Suppose the other studios were laundering money; the question becomes, "What for?" and the answer could prove dangerous for competing studios.
Dancing Days
02-27-2011, 02:59 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they were laundering money. It's a problem in the US as well, and there's a lot more of that influence on the other side.
The exchange rate is both a blessing and a curse as far as this goes, I'd think. Considering how much a US dollar is worth over there, it wouldn't take very much to start your own studio -- which would supply the building, Internet, hardware & software, etc. for the girls, as well as creating a much safer environment that doesn't exploit them. But then there's the fierce venom of competition. Suppose the other studios were laundering money; the question becomes, "What for?" and the answer could prove dangerous for competing studios.
You bring up an excellent point. I wonder what exactly it is they're doing to get the dirty money that they need it laundered. I don't plan on being "competition" for them, but of course, I'll be perceived as such. As I stated in my reply to Bambalina, my brother is high in the ranks in that city's police (lucky for me!) and if I have problems with a studio, one of two things can happen. If the studio is run by the cops, my brother would ask them to leave me alone. If the studio is NOT run by the cops, my brother would make it a point to get rid of them. Or at least I'd hope. ;)
If I run into any other trouble, flashing my American passport might do the trick. Nobody over there wants to have trouble with Americans. I figure, they'd be able to bully a Belarussian girl into whatever they want, but I'm not going to succumb to their bullshit.
Bambalina
02-27-2011, 03:14 PM
Tough chick! I adore you...
B
Felons_Felony
02-27-2011, 04:15 PM
You bring up an excellent point. I wonder what exactly it is they're doing to get the dirty money that they need it laundered. I don't plan on being "competition" for them, but of course, I'll be perceived as such. As I stated in my reply to Bambalina, my brother is high in the ranks in that city's police (lucky for me!) and if I have problems with a studio, one of two things can happen. If the studio is run by the cops, my brother would ask them to leave me alone. If the studio is NOT run by the cops, my brother would make it a point to get rid of them. Or at least I'd hope. ;)
If I run into any other trouble, flashing my American passport might do the trick. Nobody over there wants to have trouble with Americans. I figure, they'd be able to bully a Belarussian girl into whatever they want, but I'm not going to succumb to their bullshit.
Ah, I totally forgot your brother was a police worker! That's handy. I'm so used to the tribal American "STOP SNITCHIN'!" mentality that it never occurs to me that the cops come in handy sometime. Regardless of how they're obtaining the dirty money, dirty money always requires extra backup.
Camateur
02-28-2011, 03:08 AM
Dancing Days- I'm also from a former soviet union country and came to the US as a toddler. I have been warned by relatives and am under the impression that those countries (former USSR & Russia) are SEVERELY mafia ruled and very very dangerous for a young single girl to roam on your own. I was aghast that you would even wonder if this girl could be let out of her contract because she was "lied to" as there is no "real" formal court system in those parts.
At this time I would strongly urge you to dis-assemble this plan to set up shop out there; these girls as nice as they may be, are in DESPERATE situations (as in there's no welfare, women's shelters and social services to help them) and they likely have boyfriends and male relatives that have criminal pasts.
Also we have a member here "Solar Shows" she is from Moscow (I think) and she was saying that the cost of living there is much lower than the U.S, so this girl even at her lowered % is probably making enough to cover her living expenses and to buy food.
Cyrano22
02-28-2011, 04:54 AM
Dancing Days your exchange with Camateur mirrors one on CGN that took place last Spring between an American independent model CeeGirl and a Russian male model member of ours, Spunk around much the same project...The cultural distance that separated them seemed enormous. And it's the relationship of the mafia with the police that was at the center of their discussion. You can find it in the thread "wanna go solo?" but I am sharing it here too.
UL
First: Ceegirl wrote this in response to a post by Spunk:
QUOTE (Spunk @ March 14, 2010 08:39 am)
Well its kind of tricky for the models in Russia and the Ukraine to form a co-op or work solo. The problem is the cam biz is illegal. The studios pay the Mafia(police) to allow them to operate.
Cam sites based in the UAS can’t send money to Russia, Also no Russian citizen can become an affiliate member to promote the USA cam sites.( maybe it’s the old cold war thing, don’t know)). So the Studio admins take care of all these problems like banking and paying the authorities.
Sure some hosts work solo, not many. Its less stressful having your studio admin take care of business than your self dealing with the authorities.
At the end of the day a Co-op would have the same running costs as a studio. UnQuote
I can accept the difficulties of setting up, and I also see that finding out WHO to pay off and how to get around the banking aspects would be somewhat difficult. But overall Spunk, the very nature of a co-op is that it is not for profit and the models get to keep more. I mean think of it this way; If the studio makes profit (and from what I;ve read they make a LOT of profit) then that profit is a cost over and above banking and bribes that would be going to the models in a co-op situation. See?
To me, it would take a few enterprising women to just make the move. It seems the boldness in some of the innovation and stepping up is lacking more there from probably some older and more provincial attitudes of the recent past.
And Spunk replied:
"Near impossible to achieve in the present situation in Russia etc....
Well its all very well controlled. So if models want to form a co-op they will be shut down by the authorities. Why? because there is a system that u must work by in Russia.
There are powerful people who want their share , and they wont allow you to work out side the system. Because this cam business is Illegal.
We are not talking about a farmers Market or a Dairy Farmers Co-op in the west.
Everything that is illegal is tightly controlled. Prostitution, Drugs, Weapons, Cam Studios and human trafficking. Everyone has to be paid
U cant even order shit off e-bay and send to Russia, its forbidden.
It's a different society from the West."
Dancing Days
02-28-2011, 05:07 AM
Dancing Days- I'm also from a former soviet union country and came to the US as a toddler. I have been warned by relatives and am under the impression that those countries (former USSR & Russia) are SEVERELY mafia ruled and very very dangerous for a young single girl to roam on your own. I was aghast that you would even wonder if this girl could be let out of her contract because she was "lied to" as there is no "real" formal court system in those parts.
At this time I would strongly urge you to dis-assemble this plan to set up shop out there; these girls as nice as they may be, are in DESPERATE situations (as in there's no welfare, women's shelters and social services to help them) and they likely have boyfriends and male relatives that have criminal pasts.
Also we have a member here "Solar Shows" she is from Moscow (I think) and she was saying that the cost of living there is much lower than the U.S, so this girl even at her lowered % is probably making enough to cover her living expenses and to buy food.
Thank you very much for your insight, but I am a lot tougher than you think. My father was also a very successful businessman in Eastern Europe with A LOT of connections, so no matter what I do or where I go, I will be watched and taken care of. He insisted on that. I also lived there for longer than you, so my grasp on the situation back there is more lucid than yours, no doubt.
In case you also did not read my posts, my older brother is also high up in the police department in the city where I will be, so I have even less to worry about. AND I am also not single. I'm happily married to a man that looks incredibly intimidating, and he is coming with me. We are practically joined at the hip, so wherever I go, he'll go. I'm really not worried at all.
I think you were pumped with too much fear from whoever is telling you about the situation back there, because Belarus is not as scary as you're imagining it is. Granted, a lot of Eastern European countries ARE, but Belarus is not one of them. I will also be there as an American, so I have the American consulate backing me up as well.
ALSO - Just as the Ukrainian model said above, there is no MAFIA in Belarus. It's not Italy. There are lots of people who'd love do me harm, no doubt about that, but they're not organized crime by any means. Most of the studios are run by the cops, with whom I already have an in. I will make sure to make it very well known that I am American and will not be touched. Trust me, nobody wants to kill or hurt me JUST to get a couple of bucks. I am not looking to STEAL their girls OR their profit. I'm looking to help the girls. Of course, it'll be perceived as competition anyway, which is why I plan to keep this under wraps and to not advertise. Don't worry about me, I'll be fine.
I have traveled to many countries by myself and at younger ages, so please do not worry about me. I can handle myself. My past is a lot crazier than I ever let on.
Dancing Days
02-28-2011, 05:19 AM
Dancing Days your exchange mirrors one on CGN last Spring between an American independent model CeeGirl and a Russian male model member of ours, Spunk...The cultural distance that separated them seemed enormous. And it was the alliance of the mafia and the police that was at the center of their discussion. You can find it in the thread "wanna go solo?"
UL
That is something that I must definitely take into consideration. I am doing my research about the laws over there, as I already know what the cultural aspect is like. HOWEVER, I am not going to be bullied into paying ANYONE off. Except the cops, because pornography is illegal in Belarus. You guys have no idea how much of a leg up I have in this situation, as my BROTHER is a high-ranking detective that has been with the police force for a long time. I will tread lightly, but I insist on doing this no matter what anyone says. I will be doing it and I will be doing it right.
ukmissy
02-28-2011, 05:56 AM
Thank you very much for your insight, but I am a lot tougher than you think. My father was also a very successful businessman in Eastern Europe with A LOT of connections, so no matter what I do or where I go, I will be watched and taken care of. He insisted on that. I also lived there for longer than you, so my grasp on the situation back there is more lucid than yours, no doubt.
In case you also did not read my posts, my older brother is also high up in the police department in the city where I will be, so I have even less to worry about. AND I am also not single. I'm happily married to a man that looks incredibly intimidating, and he is coming with me. We are practically joined at the hip, so wherever I go, he'll go. I'm really not worried at all.
I think you were pumped with too much fear from whoever is telling you about the situation back there, because Belarus is not as scary as you're imagining it is. Granted, a lot of Eastern European countries ARE, but Belarus is not one of them. I will also be there as an American, so I have the American consulate backing me up as well.
ALSO - Just as the Ukrainian model said above, there is no MAFIA in Belarus. It's not Italy. There are lots of people who'd love do me harm, no doubt about that, but they're not organized crime by any means. Most of the studios are run by the cops, with whom I already have an in. I will make sure to make it very well known that I am American and will not be touched. Trust me, nobody wants to kill or hurt me JUST to get a couple of bucks. I am not looking to STEAL their girls OR their profit. I'm looking to help the girls. Of course, it'll be perceived as competition anyway, which is why I plan to keep this under wraps and to not advertise. Don't worry about me, I'll be fine.
I have traveled to many countries by myself and at younger ages, so please do not worry about me. I can handle myself. My past is a lot crazier than I ever let on.
It's amazing how far people will go ( especially greedy people ) to defend their immoral income .
NO ONE is invincible when it comes to money . Doesn't matter who you are, who your husband is , nor who you know.
You may not be out to steal anyone - but this is directly how it will be perceived by said competition who are minting it in at the expense of these girls -
I hope this works out for you - I REALLY do , but I hope you remember no one , American or otherwise is invincible , anywhere in the world -Relatives in a respected authoritative position surely help , but they are not a safety guarantee - and the fact you are 'not worried at all ' , worries me a little .
All the best on your quest - this is not a dig, I offer my full support of what you're doing, but I felt I couldn't say nothing regarding your safety . If our words of concern seem annoying , but help make you that tiny bit extra vigilant , then they weren't in vain !
I for one respect this move, and If it panned out , it would of course be revolutionary to not only eastern Europe, but the whole camming' world .
Much love , stay safe , Keep us posted.
Missy
Dancing Days
02-28-2011, 08:11 AM
It's amazing how far people will go ( especially greedy people ) to defend their immoral income .
NO ONE is invincible when it comes to money . Doesn't matter who you are, who your husband is , nor who you know.
You may not be out to steal anyone - but this is directly how it will be perceived by said competition who are minting it in at the expense of these girls -
I hope this works out for you - I REALLY do , but I hope you remember no one , American or otherwise is invincible , anywhere in the world -Relatives in a respected authoritative position surely help , but they are not a safety guarantee - and the fact you are 'not worried at all ' , worries me a little .
All the best on your quest - this is not a dig, I offer my full support of what you're doing, but I felt I couldn't say nothing regarding your safety . If our words of concern seem annoying , but help make you that tiny bit extra vigilant , then they weren't in vain !
I for one respect this move, and If it panned out , it would of course be revolutionary to not only eastern Europe, but the whole camming' world .
Much love , stay safe , Keep us posted.
Missy
Don't mistake my attitude for being CARELESS. I appreciate ALL of the feedback I get and trust me, I keep it on steady low heat on the back burner. I almost witnessed my uncle get killed right in front of me at the age of 6. Vigilant is my middle name.
xxxevexxx
02-28-2011, 09:29 AM
Thank you very much for your insight, but I am a lot tougher than you think. My father was also a very successful businessman in Eastern Europe with A LOT of connections, so no matter what I do or where I go, I will be watched and taken care of. He insisted on that. I also lived there for longer than you, so my grasp on the situation back there is more lucid than yours, no doubt.
In case you also did not read my posts, my older brother is also high up in the police department in the city where I will be, so I have even less to worry about. AND I am also not single. I'm happily married to a man that looks incredibly intimidating, and he is coming with me. We are practically joined at the hip, so wherever I go, he'll go. I'm really not worried at all.
I think you were pumped with too much fear from whoever is telling you about the situation back there, because Belarus is not as scary as you're imagining it is. Granted, a lot of Eastern European countries ARE, but Belarus is not one of them. I will also be there as an American, so I have the American consulate backing me up as well.
ALSO - Just as the Ukrainian model said above, there is no MAFIA in Belarus. It's not Italy. There are lots of people who'd love do me harm, no doubt about that, but they're not organized crime by any means. Most of the studios are run by the cops, with whom I already have an in. I will make sure to make it very well known that I am American and will not be touched. Trust me, nobody wants to kill or hurt me JUST to get a couple of bucks. I am not looking to STEAL their girls OR their profit. I'm looking to help the girls. Of course, it'll be perceived as competition anyway, which is why I plan to keep this under wraps and to not advertise. Don't worry about me, I'll be fine.
I have traveled to many countries by myself and at younger ages, so please do not worry about me. I can handle myself. My past is a lot crazier than I ever let on.
You seem to really know what you're doing and I think it's awesome how you are in a position to possibly change these young girl's lives for the better, to give them oppritunities they didn't have before. I do agree about it being a dangerous postition for someone but you deffinatly have quite a bit of advantages and being from there youself you may have a bit more respect than say me going over there and trying this, Alothough it might be dangerous I don't think you'll encounter too many issues considering you're keeping it fairly small, expecially with you starting with one girl and slowly working up from there, unless you planning on renting out a large space where 50 or so girls could cam daily I don't think you will be bothered much in the first placeto be honest but maybe that's naieve..? Be safe and goood luck keep us posted!! hey did u talk to the girl yet and see if shes deff willing to move and do this??:)