Log in

View Full Version : STEALING Customers! How to do it?



Pages : 1 [2]

BlkSharpie
05-15-2011, 07:26 PM
The problem with the major cam sites is that they go neck to neck with offering basically the same percentages, and having basically the same terms and theyve established themselves enough that they are a trusted source for girls to perform on and guys to spend money on. The flow of traffic, both with spenders and available models is huge enough and they dont really *have* to change anything.

While there is our community and many others like ours where cam girls discuss, we..as in industry girls who keep ourselves informed, are in the minority. Most are girls who happen to find and work it on their own and many working in studios from other countries, etc. If all of us in all the boards combined went on strike and stopped working all those sites for a month...I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt even notice.

Now...there is a site that offers 50% cut of our cam shows, and does not keep any rights to or use provider content for advertising. I was so thrilled to find it, and I shared the info about it too...I integrated their code to stream my cam on their website and was set! Problem was...it never took off. And years later...still hasnt taken off even though they are a major site and most every one uses it. Why? cause though they provide the tools and the best percentage out there...the traffic they provide just isnt enough. Guys who want to buy vids are a different breed than guys who want cam shows...yup, talking about C4S.

So its out there...the tools are there for us to use and Im sure of it that if more women were on there for cam, the guys would follow. But theres hardly ever anyone on there...so the variety is next to nothing and understandably, the guys go to where the girls are...where we are too..getting a 35% cut.

So, in a sense we do have some power, but not utilizing it by going where we would be treated more fairly.

ginger_belle
05-15-2011, 07:48 PM
I've been thinking about doing skype shows and the like, what would be a good website for the guys to pay through that is ok with sex work?

DamnGirl
05-16-2011, 07:09 AM
I've been thinking about doing skype shows and the like, what would be a good website for the guys to pay through that is ok with sex work?

Hi, I use Zombaio. Many independant cam girls are using it. They accept adult sites and processing fee is pretty low.

Fridays
05-16-2011, 07:24 AM
just so everyone knows,... wepay.com does NOT accept adult transactions...
too bad :(

Bambalina
06-28-2011, 11:49 AM
So, the new Indy site will be the perfect place to Steal Custies too...Hee hee!

B

amanda36c
06-28-2011, 08:19 PM
When it comes to this industry (which I've been in for the last 14 years), there is only one person I trust; myself. When it comes to putting my trust in someone, I use my instincts, and they're not often wrong. It also helps to be old and wise and the experiences I've gone through with one site, in particular, have made me all the wiser! 10 years of fan club content I built, sold - the the highest bidder. That's what 10 years of loyalty gets you! ;)

Sorry Bambalina but anyone teaching me how to steal ... isn't the kind of person I would put my trust in. Justifying those actions with the argument that these sites are ripping girls off, is weak. Despite my bad experience with one of those sites, I sure as heck have an axe to grind but I'm not going to grind it at everyone I encounter, just because they happen to be in the same industry. I'm going to go after the one who did me wrong. Oh and never trust anyone again, without damn good reason to. Never have anyway, so this should be a breeze.

The (legit) sites are paying girls exactly what was agreement upon, in accordance with their contract when they signed on to work there. So far, I find SM to be legit. You want to know what "ripping girls off" is? Read all about it. THIS is "ripped off".


If I ever felt "ripped off", I'd only have myself to blame for signign the contract that says I get 35% in the first place! I'm not going to sign it and then bitch about it later.

Bambalina
06-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Firstly, let me say I am truly sorry for the treatment you received at the hands of iFriends. There is never any call for the blatant ripoffs that most of these camsites perpetuate at one time or another and I'm sorry you got caught up in it.



Sorry Bambalina but anyone teaching me how to steal ... isn't the kind of person I would put my trust in. Justifying those actions with the argument that these sites are ripping girls off, is weak.


I very specifically state that I do not feel "steal" is an appropriate word. So I have never taught anyone to steal. I have also given far more reason than "these sites are ripping girls off" for why I believe this to be true. If you choose to ignore those reasons, I'm sorry. But I believe they are valid.

On the other hand, I don't believe that if the status quo is to rip girls off, that viewing customers as movable pieces in the game of camming is an ethical violation by any means. So I don't think "sites are ripping girls off" is a weak argument at all. Depending on the pervasiveness of the ripoff, if it becomes a case of "to be a camgirl and work at a camsite MEANS being ripped off" and that defines camming, then you are working in an unethical framework, which you did not create, and to follow your chosen profession you must be ripped off. That is ridiculous.


Despite my bad experience with one of those sites, I sure as heck have an axe to grind but I'm not going to grind it at everyone I encounter, just because they happen to be in the same industry.

I do not know where you get that I grind, or encourage girls to grind an axe on "everyone they encounter". I am very specific in saying that only those who exhibit NO ethical qualm about your privacy, your content, your living, and break their contract with you whenever convenient, that those people do not deserve good faith in return on the contracted word.



The (legit) sites are paying girls exactly what was agreement upon, in accordance with their contract when they signed on to work there.


I always find it so strange that anyone would defend this. Because I see our society tumbling down the shitter, because people constantly defend corporations and businesses who take advantage of workers, we bail out banks, and businesses who break the social contract. If you think that Streamate is a fair and ethical business, and that the contract you signed which states you own NONE of your own content, and that they can sue you for using your OWN content (if it was produced in any way using their service or submitted to them at ANY time) or worse yet, NOT PAY YOU (sound familiar?), that they can pay you a small fraction of what you earn, and that just because they declare that those customers, who you court, and seduce and tease, and pound your pussy for...that those customers you spend HOURS grooming and working on, BELONG TO STREAMATE is fucking patently ridiculous. That you can;t tell them about your website, or your blog or your twitter, is ridiculous and de-humanizing, and isn't even CLEARLY spelled out as such in your contract. Where does it say that you can never say, write, type, or transmit in any form any type of outside contact whatsoever?

I actually think I would love to see this go to court, because I think to stipulate that to an independent contractor is not legal and would NEVER hold up in court. That she spoke her twitter name, or said Google my Cam name...So I think you are just being a sucker here, who allows someone ELSE to define something as stealing, when it most obviously ISN'T. It just isn't, no matter how hard SM and MFC and the others want you to believe it is. At the VERY LEAST customers are co-operatively gained and gotten to spend money and "belong" to both the camsite and the camgirl. I cannot see how anyone can even attempt to make an argument otherwise.

Sure they advertise and that brings the guy IN, but YOU get the money out of him that he very well otherwise might not have spent. This isn't even about 35% being a ripoff per say, this is about WHO OWNS the CUSTOMER and rights to their time?

Let me ask this...Streamate brings a person (who may or may not spend their hard earned dollar) to the site. At that point, that is THEIR person (who is not yet even a customer). But then he comes into your room and you and your beauty convince him to spend money, at which point you begin being paid (I believe quite unfairly, since YOU closed the sale) 35%...but the customer is not longer truly STREAMATE's Customer. It is now a shared endeavor. So, now, this customer really loves the treatment he receives from you and YOUR specific beauty, and he becomes a regular of yours....he is no longer coming back for Streamate at ALL, but for you...if you moved, he would be sad and try to follow you elsewhere...So whose customer is he now? Still Streamate? So if you also do indy cam, where you make 75% of all the money, and you twitter daily about both streamate, and your indy stuff, and this customer stumbles upon your twitter and says he wants to pay you 75% instead of 35%...is THAT stealing? How about if you mention you're on twitter...and he finds you? See, we're NOT talking about something that can be called STEALING in a cut and dry manner. It just isn't stealing.



So far, I find SM to be legit.


So far I find them to say they do not allow for women to get nude in free chat nor do they allow the pussy shows, and experience has shown they break their contract as regards that on a regular basis and ignore all reports of infraction. Therefor the do not honor their contract with you and allow you to swing in the wind if you are a legit model. THAT IS NOT LEGIT.

MFC is MUCH worse and we don't even need to go into their horrendous record of NOT following their own contract.

So if you feel that a world where you are ethical and follow contracts to the letter, but your employer/contractor does NOT have to and that's just OK, well then, I'm sorry for you.



If I ever felt "ripped off", I'd only have myself to blame for signign the contract that says I get 35% in the first place! I'm not going to sign it and then bitch about it later.

As you can see, this has very little to with the 35%, however I still say that when the largest and most reasonable employer pays 35% of what you make, the game is rigged and it is your right to rig it back in your favor. Especially considering that all the camsites write into their budget the "theft" we're talking about, and so others are getting something free on your honesty...and you accept being the only one left out.

Sorry, I just don't agree and if you never want to deal with me because I so untrustworthy, then so be it. I believe I work to do more for the worker, the actual camgirl than all the other camsites put together, and I don;t need to be told that my "stealing" ways make me untrustworthy. I think I have the trust of many women here and EARNED it.

B

Sharpie80
07-20-2011, 12:02 PM
As you can see, this has very little to with the 35%, however I still say that when the largest and most reasonable employer pays 35% of what you make, the game is rigged and it is your right to rig it back in your favor.


I can see both sides but I am also of the opinion that it is OK to lead customers to other sites and/or personal skype shows.

For what it's worth, the NFL players receive 58% (I think) of total revenues under their old agreement. That certainly sounds A LOT more fair than 30%-35%. And who do you think does a better job in building their brand and attracting customers to their product, the NFL or these cam sites? 30% is just plain ridiculous. And you know it's ridiculous when the best argument against the fee is "well, that's just how it is and if you don't like it, don't sign up in the first place. Just go somewhere else." The sites should be worrying about creating an environment that makes people want to come back.

Bambalina
08-07-2011, 02:11 AM
I can see both sides but I am also of the opinion that it is OK to lead customers to other sites and/or personal skype shows.

For what it's worth, the NFL players receive 58% (I think) of total revenues under their old agreement. That certainly sounds A LOT more fair than 30%-35%. And who do you think does a better job in building their brand and attracting customers to their product, the NFL or these cam sites? 30% is just plain ridiculous. And you know it's ridiculous when the best argument against the fee is "well, that's just how it is and if you don't like it, don't sign up in the first place. Just go somewhere else." The sites should be worrying about creating an environment that makes people want to come back.

That seems to be the answer to a lot different dilemmas in camming.


"well, that's just how it is and if you don't like it, don't sign up in the first place. Just go somewhere else."

I almost feel sometimes that SW should install a button that just spits out that line in reply to posts....almost like the "Thanks" thing.

In general, no-one ever really gives a good reason why a cam-site should put forward the idea that they retain 100% rights to all customers and should ban and fire you if you tell one about your twitter or personal website. It is just pure greed that they want ALL of every cent this customer brings no matter how much you do to woo that customer and get them to spend money.

B

ChatGF
08-07-2011, 09:54 AM
In general, no-one ever really gives a good reason why a cam-site should put forward the idea that they retain 100% rights to all customers and should ban and fire you if you tell one about your twitter or personal website. It is just pure greed that they want ALL of every cent this customer brings no matter how much you do to woo that customer and get them to spend money.

B

I think pay models less then 50% it is bad, and I give 60% even, but still there is a reason why it is not fair that the model steal the customer away from a cam site to take 100%. The reason it is, such customer costed the cam site (and not the model) lots of money to land the site in first place. Only 1 every 1000's if not 10,000's thrown to a cam site will then become pay users, this means every pay user costed to the site $100's to land your cam room - before that he ever spend the first dollar.
Said so, still most models will try to move the guy away, it is a matter of fact, and sites who pay bigger % benefits from this, and one it is myfreecams, where a good % of members was bring by models from other sites, just because the higher pay to models, free of charge for myfreecams.
I do not bust models for bring guys away from chatgf , this is also because a good part of these guys was bring by models from elsewhere in first place, as I give 82% from referred guys. The stealing of customers it is even a good % of my site business model (as it is for every site who pay high %), still it should be made clear that there is a reason for sites to bust who steal the good guys outside the site.

Bambalina
08-07-2011, 10:09 PM
I think pay models less then 50% it is bad, and I give 60% even, but still there is a reason why it is not fair that the model steal the customer away from a cam site to take 100%. The reason it is, such customer costed the cam site (and not the model) lots of money to land the site in first place. Only 1 every 1000's if not 10,000's thrown to a cam site will then become pay users, this means every pay user costed to the site $100's to land your cam room - before that he ever spend the first dollar.
Said so, still most models will try to move the guy away, it is a matter of fact, and sites who pay bigger % benefits from this, and one it is myfreecams, where a good % of members was bring by models from other sites, just because the higher pay to models, free of charge for myfreecams.
I do not bust models for bring guys away from chatgf , this is also because a good part of these guys was bring by models from elsewhere in first place, as I give 82% from referred guys. The stealing of customers it is even a good % of my site business model (as it is for every site who pay high %), still it should be made clear that there is a reason for sites to bust who steal the good guys outside the site.


Ok, so, a site spends money to do promo...I get that...and that promo rings THOUSANDS of Guys...and of those thousands maybe 5 or 10 SPEND MONEY, and so the site has spent hundreds to get them..That is ONE SIDE OF THE COIN.

Now, lets look at the FACT that once the big bux are spent on promotions, THOUSANDS of guys show up...and then your MODELS get them to spend money. Pretty much every one of those guys that convert, are converted by a model. But her charm and her effort and her TIME, which is worth hundreds to her. She takes you stupid assed promo to a fucking tube site, which brings in FEELOADERS, and she converts those freeloaders into dedicated fans of HER. If they became dedicated fans of your site, they would never allow themselves to be stolen away, they are NOT there for your site, they are there for your MODEL. And so to say you own 100% rights to that customer is ridiculous.

Especially when you consider how little the cam site does to keep that customer I converted EXCLUSIVE to ME. Why should I worry about keeping him exclusive to the camsite?

There is no sense to a camsite having exclusive ownership of a customer.

B

ChatGF
08-08-2011, 07:31 AM
It is true that most customers fall in love with a specific model and the customer himself then do not care to what site she is into, but to her, so that he may follow her everywhere.
And this is why there is more then 1 model in sites, in some cases even too many (1000+ , where the traffic would be enough for 100's), because maybe one only model will fit one only guy.

You should also consider supply and demand - how many models you can find to stay there in a site full of traffic even if it pays 30%? Infinite models, everyone - except bambalina who as matter of principle politically will boicott the 30% pay site. And how many models you will convince to stick in a site with little traffic but paying 80%? Very few or none, look skinvideo it pays 80% but I never can see more then 2-5 models there, in this very moment I checked it is 2 of them. Most of the cam sites who launched and shortly failed after in past 3-5 years was paying 50% or more - it not failed those paying 30-35%.

Said so, here it is matter of math - as we talk of money and traffic which is numbers. You say one side of the coin, this is true, as what would the model do without a site where fish customers? Put a page or twitter account there with not enough traffic coming in it to make a living out of it? Let's say that you need $200 worth of traffic to have land to your page the guy who fall in love with you and buy your minutes, the model would be in loss as spending more in adverts then getting from the guy.
So if to spend these $200, is better to let them land to a place where is not only 1 model but many models, so more chances there is one who convert the guy into pay guy, this is why solo cam model sites have a meaning only as way to steal into it customers fished in multi model sites.

The cam sites would not exist or be needed, and especially not give only 30% to models and spend even more then that in adverts and affiliates, if it was really possible to do a site where guys land there magically for free so only models and site guy will split the money - fair or unfair ratio not matters.
There was discussion in site owners and affiliates forums in past 6 months about guy want launch this or that cam site, and there was general agreement it is required $500,000 to $1 million to do it successfully, where most of it (several $100,000's) goes in buy advertising at launch - rest would be gift this to models as promos so the models care to stay in a site that initially have little traffic, such as fixed per hour pay fees or prize winning. The software and hosting and admins would be 5% of costs max.

I have launched sites in past 7 years, and last one in April ( tubecamgirl.com - it is more a promo then a site...) and I confirm with less then $100,000 in advertising launch it would end up desert with lonely models who all will quit site as "no traffic there" - since models have zero patience to wait any site to grow, they wait login get immediately money to pay this month bill, or site can die - even if paid 90% to models. Read this same forum about models want do $XXX per hour not matter it is from a big or small %, if a site have no traffic the models boicott it immediately, so that it will have no way to survive, no matter the boss is sweet and give it all to girls - he is a loser as have no traffic.

Said all this - still there are a few sites including mine, where a good % of new users are bring by models stealing these from 30%-40% paying sites, since I give 82%. The principle of indy sites it was mostly the same, as a means of payment or booking system for models who steal guys into there from low % pay cam sites. If they do not bring it in sites with affiliate % or indy, they get paid directly and show in skype, that it was from day 1 a cam site was invented in 1990's and will be forever when there will be 3d hologram shows without need of glasses. But if this is fair or not, I think there is no discussion - it is not fair and never it will be :)

And so the sites will do all they can to prevent this to happen, of course this is impossible to stop but to liimt it is for sure - girls afraid to lose their account in the only site they do $$ it is quite a threat.

Sites like myfreecams are less afraid or not afraid of customers stolen, simply because pay is 50%+discount AND there is the camscore. The evil camscore it is a reason the girls will let guys pay tips in mfc losing % instead of direct pay for skype shows... as if these guys do not pay in tokens your camscore goes down. The camscore it is the ultimate trap to have the girls keep the guys pay even skype shows via myfreecams, and this mixed with allow free sex insertion shows unofficially, so giving free shows that sticks users there (and letting them abandon other sites where nothing it is free) it make myfreecams as the facebook or bittorrent of cams which is like a black hole eating all of the customers into there and putting to extinction most of the old style cam sites. Since mfc have big traffic the models also supports it and so in the end the models decide that it will survive 2 types of site only: 1) those paying 30% but bringing lots traffic and 2) those paying 50%+ but also allowing lots of free insertion in free areas.
No model will have the patience to support lower traffic sites who not allow free sex and pay 50% or more :)
Now how you can blame the site owners? And also can not blame the users as they simply go where adverts kicks them into, and stick where it is given them more free sex, it is natural not their fault.

Bambalina
08-08-2011, 09:24 AM
Said so, here it is matter of math - as we talk of money and traffic which is numbers. You say one side of the coin, this is true, as what would the model do without a site where fish customers? Put a page or twitter account there with not enough traffic coming in it to make a living out of it? Let's say that you need $200 worth of traffic to have land to your page the guy who fall in love with you and buy your minutes, the model would be in loss as spending more in adverts then getting from the guy.
So if to spend these $200, is better to let them land to a place where is not only 1 model but many models, so more chances there is one who convert the guy into pay guy, this is why solo cam model sites have a meaning only as way to steal into it customers fished in multi model sites.


When you ask what would the models do without the BigBox sites..What this shows is an incredible lack of seeing the big picture. Since if there were no BigBox sites, there would be a few big differences that everyone leaves out. First, there would be MANY more listing sites and Indy sites, and personal sites, and secondly, there would be just as many men, in my opinion, searching for a way to interact with a girl LIVE, and so the customers would be there searching for the individual girls, and they would be paid MUCH more, which is the customers desire anyway. If you ask customers - 90% are PISSED that SM takes 65% and their favorite model doesn't get that money, same is true even at MFC. Many customers "Steal" themselves by PMing a model that they would PREFER Skype even if it costs the same, because they prefer the model to get more.

So I believe we are talking about the Chicken and the Egg...Which came first? The Camgirl, or the BigBox site? Well I remember the days of AugustLive and other camsites owned by single women and run by them that made them overnight sensations, and had thousands of subscribers. BEFORE streaming even, when the picture updated once every 3 or 5 or even 30 seconds. But quickly, as SOON as it was viable, the camsite "cams" entered the scene, and we never got to see how the scene would have worked had it gone the OTHER way. Because it was BigBox site (cams.com as early as Feb. 96) and the Studios, with no REAL Western women to speak of doing cam.

By the time the whole thing started to evolve with women who were not trafficked and beaten and underage and non-English speaking, whole evil pattern of exploitation, rip-off pay, treating the women SERIOUSLY poorly, etc. Was already in place. So it was COMPLETELY the cam-sites which created the mess where it is by far better for a model to steal customers.



There was discussion in site owners and affiliates forums in past 6 months about guy want launch this or that cam site, and there was general agreement it is required $500,000 to $1 million to do it successfully, where most of it (several $100,000's) goes in buy advertising at launch - rest would be gift this to models as promos so the models care to stay in a site that initially have little traffic, such as fixed per hour pay fees or prize winning. The software and hosting and admins would be 5% of costs max.


See, this is where I see the horrible and un-professional skills of the cam-site owner showing through. There are many many very very good ways to bring traffic that are so completely UNDER-explored today.

I believe I could double your traffic in 60 days, and could do it for under $5000. And the traffic would be MUCH MUCH MUCH better than tube traffic or other shit forms of traffic. But site owners are not too smart sometimes, and that is their loss.



Now how you can blame the site owners? And also can not blame the users as they simply go where adverts kicks them into, and stick where it is given them more free sex, it is natural not their fault.
[/quote]

You have been around for a while, and you know that MFC didn;t always allow the INSERTION shows at all. In fact they were QUITE big and popular with allowing the Rules they have. Open nudity, OK. The insertions shows are not good for MFC, while the nudity, I believe, was.

And I blame users for nothing, since the ads that get them sucked in are still posted by the cam-site owners.

If you cannot find a model that works, then you haven't worked it hard enough, because there ARE innovative ways to bring the traffic and the girls together.

B

ChatGF
08-09-2011, 10:25 AM
By the time the whole thing started to evolve with women who were not trafficked and beaten and underage and non-English speaking, whole evil pattern of exploitation, rip-off pay, treating the women SERIOUSLY poorly, etc. Was already in place. So it was COMPLETELY the cam-sites which created the mess where it is by far better for a model to steal customers.

I believe I could double your traffic in 60 days, and could do it for under $5000. And the traffic would be MUCH MUCH MUCH better than tube traffic or other shit forms of traffic. But site owners are not too smart sometimes, and that is their loss.


If you can generate lots traffic with $5000 then you could get back it as investment then the best it is you simply do it for one your site rather than sell the service. I wait for your site to exist and I give good luck and ready to give advices for free altough you may disagree to some :)

The exploitation thing it is due to philippines colombia ukraine etc. government being corrupt and inefficient so making poor own girls who will have to accept bad ways to make a living, and it is quite hypocritical from those same corrupt officials of third world nations to blame westerns for cam girls thing, given that's the best job in town as country is badly managed. They should make a better living and job opportunities for own citizens compared with west countries - who on a side note are falling apart on debt as we have corrupt idiots too in our governments lol
This is the same globalization issue we see with Made in China products where they're paid nothing and work too many hours and too young or up to too late age, no labor rights, but west enojoying to buy stuff so cheap so not stopping to do it, blah blah China is bad government but being happy on other hand that guys can be slaved so easily and blame others for it. On side note China purchased back 25% of USA and other countries governments debt so one day we'll be the poor, after 2050 maybe - unless some war, this is where war would reset the debts.

So to make it short, to make viable today a site with rules of 2005, not only myfreecams but everyone else should change it all AT SAME TIME, because it is enough one or two does it the todays way, that everyone else must adapt or die. It is same someone sells TV for $10, who sell it for $1000 will close immediately unless adapt. What you seem to ask it is that no one model who come from poor country and/or it is under a studio/manager/pimp should be accepted because possibly getting slaved - well I do not accept philippines models except 1 only studio as I can not stand their fake ID's and shits, still how you can expect the main sites will ban the basic countries who make 80% of cam girls?
But why the big sites should change in any way? Only what it is put illegal and banks to close accounts accordingly, it is considered by companies for a change. All what it is legal (or simply not illegal, not regulate) someone will do. Then smaller or newer sites must consider the competition and adapt or die, actually otherwise there is only those big sites you not like if everyone else would give up.

Bambalina
08-11-2011, 01:47 PM
I wait for your site to exist and I give good luck and ready to give advices for free altough you may disagree to some :)


You KNOW I will disagree with some of what you say, but I will never tell you not to say it...I appreciate your openness and advice. I think it's awesome. However, I do tend to think you are a victim of the box...

You know the saying goes "Think outside the box."? Well sometimes I fel as if I am listening to your answers come from inside the box, that's all..




So to make it short, to make viable today a site with rules of 2005, not only myfreecams but everyone else should change it all AT SAME TIME, because it is enough one or two does it the todays way, that everyone else must adapt or die.


This I completely disagree with. If MFC stopped the free shows, I bet SM would harden up too...they never wanted to do Gold and allow stuff in free...you know that...

And if they stop, the others don't really matter.



But why the big sites should change in any way? Only what it is put illegal and banks to close accounts accordingly, it is considered by companies for a change. All what it is legal (or simply not illegal, not regulate) someone will do. Then smaller or newer sites must consider the competition and adapt or die, actually otherwise there is only those big sites you not like if everyone else would give up.

Because giving away the main product, a male orgasm, to thousands by allowing dildo fuck shows in free chat, is REALLY REALLY bad business. It hurts all camgirls everywhere, cheapens the expensive product, and how does it help MFC to have thousands of freeloaders and have MANY of their tippers turn to freeloaders as well because they sick of paying for shows for assholes who only type "show pussy bb" for an hour....

B

ChatGF
08-12-2011, 06:48 AM
This I completely disagree with. If MFC stopped the free shows, I bet SM would harden up too...they never wanted to do Gold and allow stuff in free...you know that...
And if they stop, the others don't really matter.

Because giving away the main product, a male orgasm, to thousands by allowing dildo fuck shows in free chat, is REALLY REALLY bad business. It hurts all camgirls everywhere, cheapens the expensive product, and how does it help MFC to have thousands of freeloaders and have MANY of their tippers turn to freeloaders as well because they sick of paying for shows for assholes who only type "show pussy bb" for an hour....
B

Ok please tell me if I understand your main points:

1) The main product of cams it is the male orgasm.


2) Tippers turn to freeloaders with the time, so free shows bring to self-destruction.

3) It is MFC only who forced everyone else (includes my site) to provide at least some free nudity or sex for freeloaders. So if MFC stopped alone to provide free insertion shows, every other site would also stop and this problem would be solved.


Actually, there is some truth in those points, but it could not be absolute, otherwise MFC itself would have collapsed already itself. Instead it is the site growing most in 2011 (while others are stable or decrease sales). Also the MFC models with camscore 1200-1500 or higher, could do more money then in other cam sites in most cases. Especially camscore of 5000 and higher can be a lottery winning, I know MFC models who do $20,000 per 14 days pay period, this is impossible to to in any other cam site. On the other side, whoever with camscore 800 or lower (and it is the 70-80% of the models) may do too few or no money, no matter they play pussy all the day (in the hope their camscore grows), feeding the freeloaders and so keeping MFC popular (to everyone, freeloaders and pay guys) at no advertising cost for MFC. And there I remind you Streamate pay only 30-35% because have to pay other 30% or more to who sends traffic, so if a number of models do sex in free these keep the advertising cost lower, pity they are not paid for it, but for sure these girls help MFC (and their top models) a lot.

Now, let's return to your 3 points. 1) The main product of cams it is the male orgasm. -> not the main one, otherwise we would not have guys to pay lots money for private chats even in MFC, and that include clothed ones. Lonely guys who need friends to talk or who fall in love (and so 70% talk and 30% only sex) are the main biz of cam in terms of money, in my (not so small) experience.
2) Tippers turn to freeloaders with the time, so free shows bring to self-destruction. -> the sites with the most freeloaders, also have the most paying customers. And who is freeloader for a girl, may private chat another. Could be a same guy want orgasm from a girl and want to talk with another, also he may be freeloader for a few months until staying there all the time, he falls in love with a girl and he start to spend all his money with her.

3) If MFC stopped alone to provide free insertion shows, every other site would also stop and this problem would be solved. -> You forget how many free videos are now available on internet, in tubes. To make a playing girl an event, it would need to censor the whole internet, not just the cam sites, and this is unlikely unless governments do it. If it is not true that the male orgasm it is the main product, and that everyone become a complete freeloader forever, then it make sense that giving some sex away does not distrupt the private chats business. Having no traffic or having to pay the traffic more than it can be afforded (which means again have no traffic as can't buy enough), it is a sure death of a site, as the models quickly boicott the site with no guys and then the few guys also left as guys wants girls. The MFC way bring and sticks traffic in cheap and growing way whch include people who pay (to models they wish only) and so all the other considerations can be made, but if the MFC system it work for MFC, others may adopt it and keep it until it is working. At the same time, who does in another way which is leading to financial collapse, either to adapt or die - this in a jungle rule or free market rule.

Of course if you introduce there some laws - some limits imposed by governments or credit card companies - this would change the things. For example Visa and Mastercard at one time banned scat (poo) then all of the scat pay sites collapsed as lost the biller - and poo cam shows busted accordingly, no matter that to bring good money otherwise.
At the moment it is legal and approved by credit card billers to do like MFC and so if it is financially profitable, there is no reason whatsoever to not do it for MFC or whoever wants to compete with MFC.

Bambalina
08-12-2011, 08:14 AM
Ok please tell me if I understand your main points:

1) The main product of cams it is the male orgasm.


2) Tippers turn to freeloaders with the time, so free shows bring to self-destruction.

3) It is MFC only who forced everyone else (includes my site) to provide at least some free nudity or sex for freeloaders. So if MFC stopped alone to provide free insertion shows, every other site would also stop and this problem would be solved.


1/ Yes, the main PRODUCT is the male orgasm. WHat men will MOSTLY pay for is their jacking their cocks and cumming. Yes, men do want company and some will even pay for JUST company. But there are very few escort services in the world anymore where the woman ONLY dates the guy for dinner and then goes home...the orgasm is always there, because men are constantly in sexual mode and generally always want to cum.

If men could not jack off to cam sites, there would be no cam sites, or very few and very little profit. So fapfapfapping is the real main product.

That being said, I have, as a promoter learned the real RULE.

What cam models sell is an antidote to loneliness. But it is still all wrapped up in a sex site and an orgasm for the men.

Witness: A girl who talks and shares and is fun, but NEVER does a show in public. Do they EVER, even Top 20, have 5000-6000 men in their room?

Now...almost every Top !50! girl who does a full insertion, masturbation, or Lesbian show in public gets THOUSANDS of men, often so many the room stops functioning, and they STILL come. And those are not for removal of loneliness or for chatting, those are guys looking to cum.

and 5-15 guys will generally pay for ALL those others to cum. It is extremely bad business.

2/ No. Not "Tippers turn to freeloaders with Time",

Tippers turn to Freeloaders, when they can have a show and NOT pay.

If you open Walmart and say everything is free, but you can pay if you WANT to. A few people would be like knights in shining armor and offer to pay ANYWAY, but 95%, who USED TO PAY, would start taking it for free.

MFC now offers it for free. Why the hell do you think they are growing and everyone else is shrinking? If Walmart says "everything is Free!!!", who the hell will go to K-mart, or Target (stores here like Walmart). Obviously MFC will get all the traffic...but I don;t believe they are making more money...just that they are getting more traffic. They also have to buy exponentially more bandwidth. Like HUGE amounts more..like several OC-12s more...for guys to slow their site down, crash it, and spend NO money. 99% of the people on MFC spend NO money.

3/ ONLY MFC has this model AND is big enough to affect things. If MFC goes back to the rules, the problem will disappear. Remember, the MFC model worked when they DID follow the rules. Because they had NUDE in free chat, and no-one else did. NUDE is allowed. The rules say that Insertion, pussy close-ups, hardcore lesbian, and masturbation are SPECIFICALLY not allowed. And it just so happens that THOSE are what makes guys cum.

Those shows disappear, and the guys still want to cum, so they do privates and groups to cum...because the Walmart says "No more free food" we offer the little table with samples, but everything else, YOU PAY.

SMART BUSINESS.

And as for tube sites, never bring them up in these discussions, because we aren't selling pre-recorded video and you know it. Cam guys want a LIVE girl, and interaction. ESPECIALLY the ones who tip. It IS all about orgasm for a LARGE percentage, but it is also about the girl being real and live and doing it "for them" and no video gives that.

Also, I think you believe that because Leo made a business where he made millions and revolutionized camming, that means he is still just as savvy and cares just as much...and I believe the exact opposite...as a few others pointed out on here, in this business it tends to be one where it is REALLY tough to be ChatGF...starting and small...little tiny eeny-weeny wannabe shark (awww..yer a cute lil guy...those aren't even teeth enough to bite)...and REALLY easy to be Leo the fucking shark with teeth the size of your fucking leg. Once you get past a certain traffic level and the money reaches a certain level, the expenses per customer start dropping drastically...I mean, what are bandwidth costs for you per customer? And for Leo? For You to drop $10k on advertising is tough, for Leo to do $200k per month is EASY. SM...same thing...and I still say your numbers on SM are fucked..because Very little traffic actually costs them 30%..it's like MAYBE 25% of paying traffic...which again is a product of being HUGE. Huge has HUGE advantages.

On the other hand...Leo makes over a million a month...if he doesn't allow free sex shows, he has to fuck around and hire mods and piss off models by enforcing the rules and issuing 3 day bans and shit...He might make $200k-$500k more per month, but he doesn't get to live as much like a playboy and ignore the fucking business and let others run it...And as anyone who worked stripping will tell you, owners shit on their business and run it into the ground all the time. Because $1mill a month is worth it and not have to DO anything really.

B

ukmissy
08-12-2011, 11:37 AM
1/
If you open Walmart and say everything is free, but you can pay if you WANT to. A few people would be like knights in shining armor and offer to pay ANYWAY, but 95%, who USED TO PAY, would start taking it for free.

MFC now offers it for free. Why the hell do you think they are growing and everyone else is shrinking? If Walmart says "everything is Free!!!", who the hell will go to K-mart, or Target (stores here like Walmart). Obviously MFC will get all the traffic...but I don;t believe they are making more money...just that they are getting more traffic.
B

Actually , Having worked in retail for most my adult life , it would be fair to say that many successful retailers, including walmart , do indeed offer loss leader products , products which we make little to NO money on ( FREE ) , in order to lure the customer......

I believe MFC works in a similar fashion , and the politics behind the logistics of that site in particular , is far more complicated than you give credit for ...... Many guys , big tippers, spend on girls who don't give everything if anything in free ..... At the same time, there's girls riding round their back yards with fire works in their ass being propelled round on a skateboard .... FOR FREE --- and no fuckers tipping.

I don't think it's anywhere near as easy as ...Change the dynamics ( which have made HOW much thus far ) and make more money ! In fact , I would consider such a move dangerous for the business of the girls working MFC..... There is a saying in England .... If it's not broken , don't fix it....

Personally and based on first hand experience ( $$$ ) , I don't believe MFC to be broken , because the proof is in the pudding, and MFC is still standing proud and providing many of us with big fat puddings :)

Missy

Bambalina
08-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Actually , Having worked in retail for most my adult life , it would be fair to say that many successful retailers, including walmart , do indeed offer loss leader products , products which we make little to NO money on ( FREE ) , in order to lure the customer......

I believe MFC works in a similar fashion , and the politics behind the logistics of that site in particular , is far more complicated than you give credit for ...... Many guys , big tippers, spend on girls who don't give everything if anything in free ..... At the same time, there's girls riding round their back yards with fire works in their ass being propelled round on a skateboard .... FOR FREE --- and no fuckers tipping.

I don't think it's anywhere near as easy as ...Change the dynamics ( which have made HOW much thus far ) and make more money ! In fact , I would consider such a move dangerous for the business of the girls working MFC..... There is a saying in England .... If it's not broken , don't fix it....

Personally and based on first hand experience ( $$$ ) , I don't believe MFC to be broken , because the proof is in the pudding, and MFC is still standing proud and providing many of us with big fat puddings :)

Missy

Missy, I honestly wish this was true, since it would smash my logic. But it isn't.

1st Walmart NEVER offers the bigbox item that is it's true money maker as a loss leader (EXCEPT for one day per year on Black Friday), and we're talking about that for MFC...fireworks in the pooper on the skateboard should be the BIG thing...not the norm...

But more importantly, MFC did NOT get to where they are with this model. MFC Got to where they are by following the rules and not allowing ANY penetration in Free chat for like 4 years. They even fined girls and did suspensions to back it up for a while, and then sporadically for like a year or so, and then as soon as that really stopped, the Free Show system started, and from like 3 weeks after the first free shows started, girls started complaining that money was less. I was on with 7 different women at that time and spent 12-14 hours on MFC jumping from room to room and working with them and so I can tell you that we watched guys who used to tip slow to a trickle or even stop, and they would be sitting in a free show room NOT tipping. I saw this with my eyes on multiple occasions with girls who worked with me and others who were just friends of mine. It used to be seriously much easier to make $300-$500 per shift on MFC..MUCH...and so, I have seen the demise with my own eyes, and I was there when it was great and they followed the rules.

So it has ONLY been the last year it has been truly BAD, and before that...say 6-8 months it was getting bad. Most people don;t know that MFC bought their domain in March 2002, and went up shortly after with all sorts of cams, not even mostly girls...fish and hamsters and parking lots and shit....in 2004 they started actually messing with naked girls and becoming what you know today. There was NO TIPPING, didja know that? I believe it wasn't until like 2006 or 7 before Group was added. It was about the same time the rules as they exist now were created. And they were created that way to support group.

So MFC has a longer history and much more to it than "Free Insertion Shows"...that's new shit...and it is indicative of Leo stopping caring about the site, just as classy strip clubs suddenly offering extras is indicative of the slide to sleaze pit shit-hole.

He makes HUGE money whether he cares or not, so why care? It would mean WORKING the site instead of letting it auto-pilot and having a fun life...I don't even blame the guy...

B

ChatGF
08-12-2011, 05:53 PM
3/ ONLY MFC has this model AND is big enough to affect things. If MFC goes back to the rules, the problem will disappear.

It is probable, but no one can say for sure if this is true or exact. Because the only way to know would be to experiment it, so MFC to re-start busting everyone who inserts in free. And do it for a few months, then we would get the answer. So to measure what it happens to MFC itself and especially to other sites, small and big.

Of course I would be very very very very very very very happy if MFC stopped all of the insertions in free. The same would be happy even streamate and the old big sites. And would be happy all of the models who not like to do insertions in free. As well as would be everyone happy if there was no war or pollution and we was all brothers and sisters :)

For sure the other sites can not affect things - they are too unknown and small. I checked now skinvideo there is 8 girls online, and my tubecamgirl have 4 interactive + 2 voyeur = 6. As for the viewers we have the dozens there per room. That to compare to 1000+ models in mfc with the dozens of thousands viewers combined.
More widely, I am pretty sure the 80% of the members of my site also are members of mfc, while only 0.01% of mfc members know of mine and of other small or medium sites - even those who allow insertion in free.
I had even to ban the word mfc as people was writing in my site chat that this site is like mfc, damn, they do advertising for free of competing sites, see what it means to reach the mass market, people advertise your site for free, at no cost. I have to pay every single damn viewer still.

Anyway let be in sci-fi and MFC enforce the own rules and no one free insert visible. Would skinvideo and me and others also stop insertions in free? Actually, I would not completely. I allow as the walmart thing of few products give away, but only few, not 100's at once. So limit to 3 or 4 rooms the free insertion, and others not allow it. That way I give free only limited. In MFC the free insertion shows can be dozens in any moment so a guy can browse these changing a girl every 30 seconds endlessly. If the free insertion is just 3-5 girls, then this is too short tour and if you want a girl who have bigger tits or different hair color you must take her in private, or wait tomorrow or the day when such a girl type appears in free.
In fact, tubecamgirl can NOT have more then 5 interactive rooms, it say busy to girls if it is full. This way let me have mega traffic in a future, there would be more viewers per room but no more live content given away, all rest of models are for private only.

But - if I was MFC today - I would be in the position to allow unlimited free insertion shows AND still do money while seeing competitors die. It must be fun :)

Bambalina
08-13-2011, 05:28 AM
But - if I was MFC today - I would be in the position to allow unlimited free insertion shows AND still do money while seeing competitors die. It must be fun :)

Well, I think MFC kills MFC too...because once you make every guy think they deserve to see a girl with a broom up her ass and a cucumber sticking out of her pussy in one room and a girl with a double fuck machine, one in the mouth and one in the pussy, in the next room...once all the guys think THAT is what is normal, and should be FREE...camming is dead.

And i less than 2 years, I believe we're more than 25% there, and that it is accelerating, because once SM really starts making it obvious they completely ignore the rules, then LJ will have to as well and then no-one big is left to fight.

Especially when we all know that the double dip recession is here and that many many many many MANY more girls will be coming into camming as the economy gets worse. But I don't believe there will be many, many MANY more customers with money in hand to spend, because they come and see MFC and think it should ALL be free. So only a FEW become customers and even FEWER become whales who spend big bucks. But women FLOOD in...Soon camming will be a job that pays just a bit more than a regular job, and then the American and other English speaking Western women will begin to leave it en masse, and you will be back to the Studios, and the women who cannot take jobs outside for whatever reason.

B

ChatGF
08-13-2011, 10:37 AM
Well, I think MFC kills MFC too...because once you make every guy think they deserve to see a girl with a broom up her ass ..... and should be FREE...camming is dead.
Especially when we all know that the double dip recession is here and that many many many many MANY more girls will be coming into camming as the economy gets worse. But I don't believe there will be many, many MANY more customers with money in hand to spend

It is true about more girls in cams, but it started in 2008 with first crisis. I remember in 2007 and early 2008 it became difficult to find models, because they could get good jobs in town and/or be supported by boyfriend(s) even in ukraine or romania - some of those ukrainians will boost $1000+ a month jobs plus whale boyfriends and laugh at the whole cam option. Then after banks failed, I seen a return of models who had quit since years and a flood of new 18-20 year olds. So that I would have 1000 models online if I registered really all who asked - which make no sense as my site have traffic for less models then that. Other sites including MFC registered all of them so we have those 1200 online at same time in evenings. I tend to agree that good jobs in town and supporting boyfriend(s) are not increasing but more likely to decrease and so more girls going cam - or returning to do cams after have lost a job or her supporting boyfriend(s) lost job and/or switched to cheaper gf :)

About less customers that's less per model, but I am unsure it is less per world. There are more people using internet, and mode people who was in internet before but not yet tried cam and still potentially ready to become a whale, I see it every day with totally new customers - new guys always will be. Simply there is so much more offer and cheap one (or free, courtesy of MFC), that even if the worldwide number of customer increased a little, the number of models in sites increase faster and so what we see is less customers per model. So the model see less biz for herself. But, multiply this small biz pe rmodel for the 1000 models and the site may have same or more biz, not less, then before. Especially s there are no new or extra sites around, it is the same old ones. Look at the point of view of the site, if before it had 100 models doing $1000 each, and now have 1000 models doing $100 each, this is same money for the site, isn't it?

And we all noticed that there is no new sites launched since couple year at least no one who became big, so a site who kept a 20% worldwide share of market, may probably do the same income before, today and in a future, unless its worldwide market share changes. Since MCF market share increased and increases, it does more money , eating money from other sites, but the total money I think is is mostly the same, altough it is true old customers may spend less, but there are the new ones who private chat for the first time, every day. Yesterday I had one new guy who was so dumb he mistaken to click every single button or step, he obvously never used a cam site before and he spent like $300 first day - maybe he vanish then, but it is an example old guys always reduce or stop to buy and new guys always replace them.

Sorry my background it is also science and I like math a lot, I study it as hobby when I have free time. So we have these numbers on the table:

- total people in the world who pay for cams it is probably constant or increasing, as new guys replace bored old ones, and even if there is recession, that should influence not dramatically like -50%, but according to global recession values who may be much smaller. Let's say is 1000 pay people constant every year in future, or decreasing but like to 900 not to 500.

- total models in the world who return to cams or start it as no better plan, increases. New models also have lower expectations then old models as they start in this freeloaders thing from day 1 so they think it is normal to show all for cheap. Let's say models started from 50 then gone 100 then growing will be 500.

- total sites in the world it is the same number. Share of these 1000 pay guys is let's say MFC 20%, SM 20% and so on. But with the time, MFC share grows, and some others reduce (it is not SM to decrease I think, since SM dealt with tubes and other entities). New sites have very bad time unless they invest half a million or a million dollar at launch for traffic and bonuses, they will collapse into ghost site, this is what happens since 2 or 3 years to new cam sites.

Now mix the above math and you see that:

- Sites point of view: total money MFC does it increases, while SM money maybe stable, and money of other sites decreases, since total customers not more even if not much less. Market is saturated BUT it is not locked, guys and models move between the few big sites - since 2 years I would say MFC gets people while others lose them in various %.

- Models point of view: total model a model does decreases (except the top 20 ones in MFC most of which western home cam models and - with less luck - the top 20 of SM etc.), because it is more models entering the game with lower expectations and doing all the things for cheap or free. Especially this is east europe, south america and south east asia girls in studios (like the shoes made in china). Models tend to be more sly with sites due to need so stealing guys from 30%-50% into western union or indy 80%+ it become more common. On a site note chatGF big % of new guys is bring by models who are biggest theft of whales ever and I even teach them how to do it without being caught by site admins :)

Actually the formula have more variables. However one interesting critical point it is, up to how low the models can earn before to stop showing pussy. As an example, one model was telling me yesterday that she was camscore 1100, then she try doing 6 hour non stop toy pussy and ass in free for tips, and made just $20 then camscore it was 900 at the end, falling lower in list. She was of course pissed of it. Most of the insertion shows in MFC from models with camscore under 1000 are really private chats done in SM or other sites, sent in MFC too with splitcam at no effort - in hope for extra tips or camscore up - so the guys see a girl appear doing sex despite no one tips from start to end, then she go offline - at times there is just few guests and she stuff two dildos in two holes for them, as someone else is paying the private in SM or jasmin or who knows what sites. This way since other sites pay for the free show, and this is gifted by model to MFC, there is basically no issue to the show for zero tips, as no tips are needed really. Other sites and its customers support the MFC free shows completely, for MFC guys to see it free.

Tihs is why I say, MFC sees other sites fall apart and does money on it, and this is in good part with private chats of other sites, which is hilarious.

Bambalina
08-14-2011, 09:22 AM
Sorry my background it is also science and I like math a lot, I study it as hobby when I have free time. So we have these numbers on the table:


Yes darling, but your math is flawed...



- total people in the world who pay for cams it is probably constant or increasing, as new guys replace bored old ones, and even if there is recession, that should influence not dramatically like -50%, but according to global recession values who may be much smaller. Let's say is 1000 pay people constant every year in future, or decreasing but like to 900 not to 500.


I believe the recession DOES affect the total number of cam-guys. And more than you give credit for. Because hard-times for money are a "double whammy" and cause the bored, jaded, broke, etc. old customers to leave at a more rapid rate, and it ALSO slows the incoming customers in SEVERAL ways. First the ratio of freeloaders to spenders coming in (and already there) will be HIGHER during recession times, secondly, the ones who spend, have less disposable income during a recession, so don't spend nearly what they would in boom times, and lastly, as already stated before, since the guys get out earlier due to recession, the spending life of each new tipper per capita goes down.

Lastly, high unemployment and layoffs are killers, because often, even guys who still WANT TO spend, suddenly cannot.



- total models in the world who return to cams or start it as no better plan, increases. New models also have lower expectations then old models as they start in this freeloaders thing from day 1 so they think it is normal to show all for cheap. Let's say models started from 50 then gone 100 then growing will be 500.


And this is the exact opposite of the above...Not only do WAY moe come in, but WAY LESS leave camming. Also, as it becomes harder to bring in wealth, the old cam-models will be desperate and do more than they did in the boom time.



- total sites in the world it is the same number. Share of these 1000 pay guys is let's say MFC 20%, SM 20% and so on. But with the time, MFC share grows, and some others reduce (it is not SM to decrease I think, since SM dealt with tubes and other entities).


I think the site numbers stay the same because there is nothing new to do yet. I mean, every site that tries to start is just a copycat of an old site with no real innovations, that is why this HUGE amount is talked about...to get a camsite off the ground. YOU laughed when I asked if you used a million to get your site off the ground...and yes, you are a teeny fish, but I think if I gave you a million and you did a site that does not improve on MFC or SM, you would flush my million down the toilet. You MUST have innovation and something new to draw the guys away.

Now, that being said, I agree that SM and MFC and LJ pretty much hold the major share, with a few players who are fairly close or at least have a market share worth discussing...

But see, where you and I disagree HERE on numbers, is that I think MFC DOES take traffic from the others, but it MOSTLY, and I mean OVERWHELMINGLY...95%+ will be freeloader traffic. SM gets the tube traffic, and the tube traffic QUICKLY realizes that they cannot get much at
SM for free...but they got a taste of the cams, and so they run to MFC...and freeload, because they are TUBE guys....I think a GREAT DEAL of MFCs new traffic is all freeloaders, raising bandwidth for MFC, lowing the quality and speed of MFC, and contributing NOTHING.

Lastly and more importantly, you simply leave out the free shows affect on ALL of these numbers. And that every customer to MFC QUICKLY learns they do NOT have to spend ANY money to see shows. Period. And every customer learns this fast and MOST will become NON-Customers fast. Because even those who are good guys and good customers, MOSTLY don;t want to foot the bill for the freeloaders.



Now mix the above math and you see that:

- Sites point of view: total money MFC does it increases, while SM money maybe stable, and money of other sites decreases, since total customers not more even if not much less. Market is saturated BUT it is not locked, guys and models move between the few big sites - since 2 years I would say MFC gets people while others lose them in various %.


Re-do the math with my numbers.

MFC makes less every day because the ratio of freeloaders to spenders rises every single day, because of FREE shows, and especially so as new customers come and are not like old customers who EXPECTED to pay. These new guys don't expect to have to pay. Because the site is FILLED with the MAIN product, for free.

MFC makes less because more CUSTOMERS leave every day because they are sick of overcrowded rooms and paying for the shows for freeloaders.

MFC makes less because there is more freeloaders coming and less customers because of the world economy and un-employment numbers.

MFC makes less because they are over-crowding and saturating their bandwidth with free loaders and free shows MORE AND MORE every single month.



- Models point of view: total model a model does decreases (except the top 20 ones in MFC most of which western home cam models and - with less luck - the top 20 of SM etc.), because it is more models entering the game with lower expectations and doing all the things for cheap or free. Especially this is east europe, south america and south east asia girls in studios (like the shoes made in china). Models tend to be more sly with sites due to need so stealing guys from 30%-50% into western union or indy 80%+ it become more common. On a site note chatGF big % of new guys is bring by models who are biggest theft of whales ever and I even teach them how to do it without being caught by site admins :)


MASSIVE influx of new models, almost all of them influenced by the present system, to expect to do MORE in free chat, lowering the expectations of customers even more. Also, since these models do more in free, less is spent on privates and groups and these models bring in less money overall than any other group of models in the history of camming...as a group...



Actually the formula have more variables. However one interesting critical point it is, up to how low the models can earn before to stop showing pussy.


MOST models, the formula their head accepts is...more pussy=more tips. That is not true of many models, but I still think the overwhelming majority think they will earn more if they show more. When in truth, the exact opposite holds true, especially if it was over a broad spectrum. See my threads about MFC in the CC section. They will argue that Free shows are NOT harmful to camming and do NOT lower the overall money made by models. They argue with the logic of Supply and Demand. A proven fact.

I think that many models will QUIT (camming, not pussy) before they truly consider that "More Pussy for FREE= Less Money for EVERYONE", when it is just basic logic and reason. Go read the threads...



Tihs is why I say, MFC sees other sites fall apart and does money on it, and this is in good part with private chats of other sites, which is hilarious.

I agree that exists, but it has MUCH less affect than the free shows do on turning customers into freeloaders.

B

PS. Now, Mr. Teach Girls to Steal Customers. It is time to pay me for this great debate we're having with a post on the topic of stealing guys to other sites.

I want ChatGFs guide to stealing customers...c'mon...start writing...

juicyjessieandjoey
06-23-2013, 05:36 AM
if someone is all of a sudden interested in knowing about someone in your room whether it is another model or not, then they aren't really interested in you anyway or maybe they just need some different attention at that time. Who cares? let them go. Others will come in that will swear by you and not leave your room. those are the important ones to pay attention. If you waste your time worrying about the people not 100% with you then you will stop focusing your energy on the ones that do, and guess what then they start to leave. There is enough for everyone. be patient they will cum. :-)

twistedprincess
06-23-2013, 09:31 AM
Why did this thread need reviving?

It's over 2 years old and completely irrelevant as you're giving advice to a person who has been long since banned.

CourtneyRaine
06-23-2013, 09:37 AM
I know we always encourage new girls to search for old thread before starting a new one but this is just silly :P

Fwiw as far as stealing customers from a lower % site to take them to a higher % site, I think we'd all do it if given the opportunity. I've never sat in free chat and been like hey, want to do a show? Sign up on this other site and we'll do it over there! But, one of the advantages for keeping my model name the same across the board is that it's easy to find me on twitter. If a guy from low % site A takes the time to find me on twitter and expresses interest in doing a show I will refer him to do the show on higher % site B. This isn't theft, this is a smart business practice, and I have no problem with this at all.

TheBrownFox
06-23-2013, 09:56 AM
I know we always encourage new girls to search for old thread before starting a new one but this is just silly :P

Fwiw as far as stealing customers from a lower % site to take them to a higher % site, I think we'd all do it if given the opportunity. I've never sat in free chat and been like hey, want to do a show? Sign up on this other site and we'll do it over there! But, one of the advantages for keeping my model name the same across the board is that it's easy to find me on twitter. If a guy from low % site A takes the time to find me on twitter and expresses interest in doing a show I will refer him to do the show on higher % site B. This isn't theft, this is a smart business practice, and I have no problem with this at all.

I agree. This is the reason (I'm assuming?) that Streamate has that rule about 'no discussing Twitter, and no exchanging contact info'. They want their models to do shows for SM members on Streamate...they don't want models persuading SM members to go join MFC and spend on there...lol. Now I'll admit that as a model on both sites, it would be nice if my SM members could just find me on MFC and spent money through there. But out of respect for SM's rules, I will not advertise other sites while broadcasting in SM public chat.

CourtneyRaine
06-23-2013, 10:04 AM
^Same. When I quit naked I told the guys I'd still broadcast on there one night per week if they wanted to keep doing shows with me, but if not I'd be camming elsewhere. Of course they all asked where. Since I am not allowed to name other sites I told them straight up that I'm not allowed to discuss specifics but if they want to keep up with me they can add me on twitter for updates as to when I'll be back on naked. If they choose to join any other sites I'm on that's on them, if they choose to stay on naked and only see me once per week that's okay too. Maybe it's a gray area. I don't feel bad since I've never actually said they should go sign up elsewhere.

NorthernClaire
07-30-2013, 04:03 AM
Legally stealing customers would be a breach of the model contracts we sign. I don't really have the courage to steal customers because of these contracts I signed. For example mf c threatens you with a penality of 50,000$ for each single breach of the contact in respect to receiving payment offsite and doing camchat offsite. I never heard that mf c enforcec their rules but who knows when they will. Has anyone of you contractual law knowlege? Do you think that their contract will hold a a court. I doubt it because it seems entirely unfair but it's nothing more than a assuption.

cherryblossomsinspring
07-30-2013, 06:47 AM
Legally stealing customers would be a breach of the model contracts we sign. I don't really have the courage to steal customers because of these contracts I signed. For example mf c threatens you with a penality of 50,000$ for each single breach of the contact in respect to receiving payment offsite and doing camchat offsite. I never heard that mf c enforcec their rules but who knows when they will. Has anyone of you contractual law knowlege? Do you think that their contract will hold a a court. I doubt it because it seems entirely unfair but it's nothing more than a assuption.

Actually even in model contracts free chat nudity is NOT allowed. Free chat shows are also typically not allowed yet the site sets up a model that free chat nudity and getting tips for it is the norm. This is why even the private only sites have adopted similar models so to speak. Actually MFC breaks it's own policies and the owner tips models that break his own rules. So umm I'm not buying the $50,000 breach of contract bit. Surely they do pick models that they'll fine but behind the scenes he promotes the free chat shows. Still with all of that said his site has one of the highest payouts out of all other top sites. 50% and up.

I still don't understand what SM does with 65% cut off of models. Even so some models even with 35% make a killing. Could you imagine what 50% or higher would be for them??

It's smarter to just use twitter and have guys find you there. Tweet your on one site and then tweet the other moments later. They'll figure out which one makes sense. I also not a fan of doing indy with most customers anways. I've only found a few that make that work it but generally guys that find me on let's say AW are trying to go there so they don't have to pay $5.99 or $8.00 a minute elsewhere. What I find annoying is that they still try to sit in free chat on the other site when the whole point of them finding me on AW is so they could pay, play and then go away. So looks like for some guys they are trying to be as cheap as possible yet still use the free chat sites to do all of that free attention and talking.

Going forward I think I'll keep guys right where they are for it seems to serve unsavory behavior. Either they act like the ones on free chat sites or they'll attempt to feel like they have some sort of hold over you if you refer them elsewhere. I'll leave a hint and play dumb rather than openly stating anything specific. Also say " google me" or "follow me on twitter" works wonders.

In most cases I don't like mixing customers between sites. The one reason is guys will go to most sites to find you cheapest rates and then find sites that you're on with the most available free attention to sit and gab away. It's as if they felt they've paid their dues.

Also indy clients and free chat clients don't even behave the same. Nothing is more annoying than a member trying to now privately chat me up on skype or messenger as if I have all day to indulge his need for validation. Typically on free chat site the dollar amounts are alll in his face to remind him I'm at work not there to hang out and listen to him for hours.

One member just recently did this. He found me on AW where obviously models aren't over 3 pounds but never does privates on the site he's been chatting away at 6.00 a min. Then of course he comes back to the free chat site and sits there to talk as if he's tipped something. This is a problem so now I ignore him in free chat until he tips.

Now if I worked SM I would want to take any guy off there but again it would depend on the rate I'm charging there and what exactly he's looking to pay elsewhere. Going from 5.99 real private rate on SM to $2.50 per min on skype may seem worth it but if the guy starts trying to steal time or haggling for more free conversation then it's more work than it's worth. This is the issue with camming in a way that makes it more resonable for the customer. In my experience they don't care about your time usually or you have to clock watch just to make sure everything is on point. When they are worried about their wallet at the per min rate they have no issues closing a private in mid conversation.

EphemeronXOXO
07-30-2013, 07:06 AM
I think the most simple way is to say search my name:) Especially if you have the same name everywhere plus u have the same name on twitter tumblr etc.
They cant even say a bad thing about you - I mean the site you r on when you say this because you never exchanged private details of you nor giving out info of other sites. Or like Google is my best friend how about you? Or it is the 21st century baby! Use the net wisely. If they are smart enough they will know what to do. And I think this way you dont need to comfront the main site you work on.

NorthernClaire
08-04-2013, 02:30 AM
Actually even in model contracts free chat nudity is NOT allowed. Free chat shows are also typically not allowed yet the site sets up a model that free chat nudity and getting tips for it is the norm. This is why even the private only sites have adopted similar models so to speak. Actually MFC breaks it's own policies and the owner tips models that break his own rules. So umm I'm not buying the $50,000 breach of contract bit. Surely they do pick models that they'll fine but behind the scenes he promotes the free chat shows. Still with all of that said his site has one of the highest payouts out of all other top sites. 50% and up.

I still don't understand what SM does with 65% cut off of models. Even so some models even with 35% make a killing. Could you imagine what 50% or higher would be for them??

It's smarter to just use twitter and have guys find you there. Tweet your on one site and then tweet the other moments later. They'll figure out which one makes sense. I also not a fan of doing indy with most customers anways. I've only found a few that make that work it but generally guys that find me on let's say AW are trying to go there so they don't have to pay $5.99 or $8.00 a minute elsewhere. What I find annoying is that they still try to sit in free chat on the other site when the whole point of them finding me on AW is so they could pay, play and then go away. So looks like for some guys they are trying to be as cheap as possible yet still use the free chat sites to do all of that free attention and talking.

Going forward I think I'll keep guys right where they are for it seems to serve unsavory behavior. Either they act like the ones on free chat sites or they'll attempt to feel like they have some sort of hold over you if you refer them elsewhere. I'll leave a hint and play dumb rather than openly stating anything specific. Also say " google me" or "follow me on twitter" works wonders.

In most cases I don't like mixing customers between sites. The one reason is guys will go to most sites to find you cheapest rates and then find sites that you're on with the most available free attention to sit and gab away. It's as if they felt they've paid their dues.

Also indy clients and free chat clients don't even behave the same. Nothing is more annoying than a member trying to now privately chat me up on skype or messenger as if I have all day to indulge his need for validation. Typically on free chat site the dollar amounts are alll in his face to remind him I'm at work not there to hang out and listen to him for hours.

One member just recently did this. He found me on AW where obviously models aren't over 3 pounds but never does privates on the site he's been chatting away at 6.00 a min. Then of course he comes back to the free chat site and sits there to talk as if he's tipped something. This is a problem so now I ignore him in free chat until he tips.

Now if I worked SM I would want to take any guy off there but again it would depend on the rate I'm charging there and what exactly he's looking to pay elsewhere. Going from 5.99 real private rate on SM to $2.50 per min on skype may seem worth it but if the guy starts trying to steal time or haggling for more free conversation then it's more work than it's worth. This is the issue with camming in a way that makes it more resonable for the customer. In my experience they don't care about your time usually or you have to clock watch just to make sure everything is on point. When they are worried about their wallet at the per min rate they have no issues closing a private in mid conversation.

MFC was just a example for a contract that threatens girls if they steal and I bet other sites have similiar contracts. I would not steal from MFC neither since they pay a good % and the whole site is set up in a way by the camscore algorithm that punishes you anyway if you'd steal customers since you need as much tokens per hour as possible to get a good rank and thus visitors in your room. I just would be cautious anyway when it comes to stealing customers although I understand it because it's shitty to give girls as low as 35% live streamate of LJ.
Btw I don't think streamates keeps 65%. I think they pay a huge cut to affiliates too.