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BlankStare
07-02-2011, 09:16 PM
Now, I agree that this is not the forum for THIS discussion, so i end it here...


We'll continue it elsewhere, and so far, I like you, so it's a date....


B

I surely hope so, because I have an abundance of rebuttals for what the Bible says about slavery..

(Job 31:13-15 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?")

I also can see that we both love to have the final thought- which may make for tiring and drawn-out conversation as each of us keeps trying to make our last points ;) ....
But compelling and refreshing nonetheless.

housewench
07-02-2011, 10:17 PM
Wow you guys, that was awesome! Now if only all the religious debates I've had went so well...

innes
07-04-2011, 11:03 AM
I am not really religious. My theory is just be a good person, be helpful, be kind, etc. and you will be fine :). The golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The thing is, there are so many religions and everyone thinks they are the only religion. There are so many to choose from! I have no clue what is right! Sooo I will just be a good person. And, if there is a God or some higher being, I don't think I will be turned away from heaven or something of the like just because I wasn't the religion. I hope they will think I have been a genuinely good person for my life and not torture me.

Besides, if only one religion can be right, then there are a ton of religions that will be wrong. So most likely I'm going to get it wrong.

Buddhism is interesting though. :)

Bambalina
07-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I am not really religious. My theory is just be a good person, be helpful, be kind, etc. and you will be fine :). The golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The thing is, there are so many religions and everyone thinks they are the only religion. There are so many to choose from! I have no clue what is right! Sooo I will just be a good person. And, if there is a God or some higher being, I don't think I will be turned away from heaven or something of the like just because I wasn't the religion. I hope they will think I have been a genuinely good person for my life and not torture me.

Besides, if only one religion can be right, then there are a ton of religions that will be wrong. So most likely I'm going to get it wrong.

Buddhism is interesting though. :)


Very true, and the concept of religion is rife with "choose poorly? Go to hell" and is just another bad aspect of religion.

There's just so many....

B

Bambalina
07-04-2011, 12:05 PM
I surely hope so, because I have an abundance of rebuttals for what the Bible says about slavery..

(Job 31:13-15 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?")

I also can see that we both love to have the final thought- which may make for tiring and drawn-out conversation as each of us keeps trying to make our last points ;) ....
But compelling and refreshing nonetheless.

Um, just because the bible has contradictory rebuttals darlin', doesn't mean the original statements supporting Slavery (in Jewish Law, which Jesus upholds) aren't there...at the least it is contradictory, which cannot be under an unchanging and perfect God...Look up the PAGES AND PAGES AND PAGES of bible contradictions available on the net...MANY webpages devoted to that...

But see, most scholars say that Job's thoughts on the matter are trumped by The Law which was handed down directly by God. The same law that says we should KILL OUR CHILDREN if they talk back and rebel.

Also, Job IS cool about slaves...Not so cool when he hands his virgin daughters over to be raped by the whole town...Righteous man indeed...

B

PS. Is it EVER ok to kill your child for "rebellion"? Is it EVER ok to kill women by throwing huge rocks at them until they are bludgeoned to death? Is it ever ok to eat your child's flesh? To Murder all the babies of a whole city? Etc. Etc. Etc. If you answer NO to any of those, you CANNOT worship the God in the Bible, because THAT God thinks those things are OK!

For those who think Jesus disagrees and he is cool and brought a wonderful peaceful good happy trip...Think again...it depends WHERE you read..."Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. " That is JESUS speaking, the same Jesus who re-affirms the Hebrew Law handed down by God, and says not ONE LETTER changes. The same Law that says KILL CHILDREN for Rebellion, and Slavery is Great! and Kill women who are adulterers, and that once you marry a woman, no other man can have her and any that do, BOTH are commiting Adultery...That Law, from God, who thought that was OK. As did his Son Jesus.

God is Great? God is Good? Hmmmmm

ukmissy
07-04-2011, 12:06 PM
Oh yes, and if you're doing good deeds just to get into heaven or out of fear of punishment , are you really doing good at all :-) I guess good people who don't believe , are really selfless for their choices against 'evil '.

Bambalina
07-04-2011, 01:03 PM
I am very much not anti-God, and I have NO problems with those who believe in God. I believe in SOMETHING...not sure if it's God or not....

But I do have problems with people being blindly obedient or stupidly respectful of things that are just patently wrong...The Bible contains some pretty stuff, but it contains an equal measure of trash, and a pretty good dollop of EVIL shit that is anti-woman, anti-child, anti anyone different, pro-slavery, pro-misogynist and pro-Ruling Class MEN.

So why would you adopt that as your idea of Goodness? It just clearly (to me) is not. In fact, with the bible, Koran and Torah as the main books of the EARTH, no wonder we're so hopelessly fucked up.

B

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 06:42 AM
Um, just because the bible has contradictory rebuttals darlin', doesn't mean the original statements supporting Slavery (in Jewish Law, which Jesus upholds) aren't there...at the least it is contradictory, which cannot be under an unchanging and perfect God...Look up the PAGES AND PAGES AND PAGES of bible contradictions available on the net...MANY webpages devoted to that...

But see, most scholars say that Job's thoughts on the matter are trumped by The Law which was handed down directly by God. The same law that says we should KILL OUR CHILDREN if they talk back and rebel.

Also, Job IS cool about slaves...Not so cool when he hands his virgin daughters over to be raped by the whole town...Righteous man indeed...

B

PS. Is it EVER ok to kill your child for "rebellion"? Is it EVER ok to kill women by throwing huge rocks at them until they are bludgeoned to death? Is it ever ok to eat your child's flesh? To Murder all the babies of a whole city? Etc. Etc. Etc. If you answer NO to any of those, you CANNOT worship the God in the Bible, because THAT God thinks those things are OK!

For those who think Jesus disagrees and he is cool and brought a wonderful peaceful good happy trip...Think again...it depends WHERE you read..."Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. " That is JESUS speaking, the same Jesus who re-affirms the Hebrew Law handed down by God, and says not ONE LETTER changes. The same Law that says KILL CHILDREN for Rebellion, and Slavery is Great! and Kill women who are adulterers, and that once you marry a woman, no other man can have her and any that do, BOTH are commiting Adultery...That Law, from God, who thought that was OK. As did his Son Jesus.

God is Great? God is Good? Hmmmmm

God NEVER said anything about agreeing with slavery in The Bible. And anyone who knows anything about biblical times knows that slavery wasn't quite the slavery we know in more recent centuries. Also, really.. What purpose does God have for all the evil things? Really? Why did God create anything? Why does God do anything? Who knows? Just anticipate on finding out, if there is indeed an All-mighty supreme being.. I'm not saying that man didn't twist the hell out of God's word or Jesus' teachings. Actually.. you and I agree there.

Oh, and MAYBE.. just MAYBE.. because we haven't had the second coming of Christ.. and really the world has only changed so drastically in maybe the last 200 years.. the Bible was written at a time where this was all, well- pretty much acceptable up until a few centuries ago, and in some cases even later. So perhaps the Bible isn't wrong, and we're all just using it's, what we feel is ludicrousness, as a means of justifying our sins?

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 08:42 AM
God NEVER said anything about agreeing with slavery in The Bible.


When God says slaves must be good slaves and listen to their masters and follow what they say, and Jesus says more or less the same thing, that if the master is a good Christian the slave must obey well, that is approving of slavery.

I mean c'mon, why do religious people have to make so many fucking excuses for their God. You'd figure that he's GOD, not some wishy washy wimpy shy kid....If God doesn;t want slavery and thinks it is a moral blight on the very concept of "all God's Children" and God KNOWS there will be tons and tons and tons of slavery throughout history, why does the Bible NOWHERE Just say GOD SAYS "THOU SHALT NOT OWN ANY PEOPLE, EVER!" Pretty damn simple...He talks about Coveting thy neighbors wife, and making graven idols, but somehow, DIRECTLY banning OWNING humans...Nope, God forgot that. Rape, he forgot that one too...And forget actually tackling issues he knew as an all-knowing deity would plague mankind forever like Race...God doesn't care about that shit, he cares that we make Golden Calves, and like our neighbors John Deere Mini Tractor...THOSE things are worthy of the Ten Commandments, but not Slavery and Rape.



And anyone who knows anything about biblical times knows that slavery wasn't quite the slavery we know in more recent centuries.


Many writings show that slavery was worse, that the ownership was complete and that to kill your slave was to just rid yourself of property. Also, the bible specifically states that it is acceptable to take slaves from conquered enemies...So we can have Iraqi Slaves now! Woohoo! I mean, it is more excuse making for God. Shall I search out the passage that says it is acceptable for a slave owner to use his female slaves as he see fit?

The Bible is God's message to MANKIND. Period. There is NO other real words he has specifically left. And the trivial bullshit he puts in is ridiculous, and the important stuff he leaves out is MONUMENTAL.

That God gets almost every attempt at scientific knowledge WRONG in the bible, thinks the Earth is flat, that the world can flood (and has no CLUE that Mount Everest is really tall and has Mount Ararat be the first thing dry)...is VERY telling. I mean, a book inspired by God and spoken by God, and God doesn't include anything...not ONE fact...of scientific knowledge of TODAY...God doesn't think DNA (HIS Blueprint for how we work) is even important enough for a quick nod...Yet all the ways one must dress cattle for sacrifice...PAGES about that....Kind Solomon's Temple...PAGES...Stars, Space, the Moon, What's under the Sea, How Dolphin's fit in, Internal Combustion, men FLYING, not a mention...Prophecies of the future rife with incomprehensible babble that never includes the word Computer.



Also, really.. What purpose does God have for all the evil things?


Absolutely NONE if the bible is at ALL true and he a God of pure Goodness and Love. Period. You can make excuses all you want, but there is NO explaination for an all-powerful, all knowing deity, allowing evil, sin, Satan, Tornadoes that kill innocent babies and make them suffer, War, etc.

I love how in every Christian I've ever discussed this stuff with, there is always the implicit thing that our faith...God remaining hidden from us and not outwardly revealing himself to the world, is always MORE important than SUFFERING, Lost Souls, Tormented souls in Hell, etc. Since there is always a reason why God should NOT just reveal himself in all his glory and ASK US to stop war. It's more important that we argue over religion and remain divided, than to actually just come on down and tell us which religion is right.

I mean you might think that a God who is pure Love and Forgiveness, and Empathy, would feel for starving Children and come down and say "Hey, feed those kids dammit! Money is less important than them EATING." Because you know damn well MANY people would feed those kids then, and saying stuff to us obviously does not remove free will, since he does it many other times in the bible. But whatever you come up with shows God as less empathic and caring and loving than all that...

Free Will is MORE important than watching an innocent child be taken into the woods and murdered by a sick fucking pedophile...God will sit by and ALLOW that, so as not to disrupt our precious free will...

Is that the God you believe in?


Why did God create anything?


I think I know the answer to that one...and if there s a God in the sense you speak of, it is pretty obvious. If that being has ANY of the motivations of any other being ever...then the answer is kinda clear...

Eternity is a very very very very long time...Eternity as the ONLY thing there is...no external stimuli, no friends, no OTHERs or OTHERNESS whatsoever? Long and lonely...even if you are God....Eternity...

Any being we've ever seen left functionally alone will go clinically insane fairly quickly, I mean, less than a few years...and that is with external stimulation...deserted island or whatever...

God had no island...no universe...no rubic's cube or PS3, no TV...in fact no real concept of what an "Other being" would even be like...before the creation of the universe...right? There was ONLY God before that....

So, if one CAN create stuff, one would...

Seriously doubtful one would get it PERFECT on the first try, or that you'd BE perfect (God) having never created ANYTHING before...Well, that discussion is for another day...


Why does God do anything? Who knows?


I gave what I think is an answer up there...but I get what you asking, and of this entire discussion, this is the closest you come to truly copping out like all other Christian's do..."God Works in Mysterious Ways! Why ask Why!?" Oldest copout in the book.

I am not just asking why. I am making direct comparative here, and a real statement and argument that is not just to question why.

We see the world is what it IS. The ISness of things is very easy to determine. Especially when one can compare that ISness to the words of a book that says it is the inspired word of God. They do NOT jibe.

When one reads the book, as most Christians truly do NOT, it becomes clear to most that the book is rife with contradictions, moral problems, lies, incorrect science, logical fallacies, situational ethics, and just plain bad storytelling if one wants to explain how the world works or who God is or how to be a truly good person...

So WHY should we continue following the book?

Another one I love...Christians will usually say to me "If it is such a terrible book, then how come it has endured as the main word of God for so long?"

Well because for a HUGE chunk of that time, the only religion that followed it, didn't allow you to read it, and Mass was in Latin which NO-ONE spoke. Then Martin Luther did his thing, and if you check, the actual number of Christians who have read the bible cover to cover is SHOCKINGLY small.

Think about this...What should be THE most important thing in your LIFE...God...and what should decide how you live every single moment of your life, and like 95% of the followers never read the main book that decides their lives.

Makes one think, that in general, the number of "Christians" is a truly inflated number. FAR more Atheists than Christians...If one defines a Christian as a person who truly reads and understands the bible and their beliefs. WAY more atheists I have met read the bible than Christians.


Just anticipate on finding out, if there is indeed an All-mighty supreme being.. I'm not saying that man didn't twist the hell out of God's word or Jesus' teachings. Actually.. you and I agree there.


But if what we have is twisted and filled with lies and bad science and bad morals and situational ethics and all the other stuff I talk about...Why the HELL use that book? It's polluted, tainted and we can't know how much of it is even real...so why not start from scratch?


Oh, and MAYBE.. just MAYBE.. because we haven't had the second coming of Christ.. and really the world has only changed so drastically in maybe the last 200 years.. the Bible was written at a time where this was all, well- pretty much acceptable up until a few centuries ago, and in some cases even later.

Job is NOT righteous. Allowing the rape of your daughters is NOT righteous. It is NEVER righteous and never will be or has been. So "pretty much acceptable" does NOT cut it for a holy book....sorry. Stoning your child to death for being rebellious, is NEVER acceptable. It doesn;t matter about times being different...it is NEVER "ok' and God COMMANDS it, and many many years later, Jesus re-affirms it.

It is NOT ok.

Example: I love Thomas Jefferson. His writings, hos duality bedroom in Monticello, etc. He is a groovy cat. He was REALLY excellent to his slaves, and was from a time when he was taught from birth that having slaves was acceptable....yet I cannot still say that Thomas Jefferson HAVING slaves is OK. It is NOT. Because Slavery is NEVER ok. Thomas Jefferson did what he had to do and existed as he needed to at the time, but his slave ownership is still disgraceful and if you read his writings he pretty much knew it.

Same here....Slavery, Rape, Child killing, etc.. there is no time when that is ok.

Also, for God to be perfect he cannot decree "Thou Shalt Not Kill" as a COMMANDMENT...not a "most of the time" but a COMMANDMENT to never be broken, and then say, "Ok...Go kill!" like 30 times after that(as well as smiting and killing himself)...Situational Ethics...terrible way to live. Terrible advice for humans.



So perhaps the Bible isn't wrong, and we're all just using it's, what we feel is ludicrousness, as a means of justifying our sins?

Or maybe, JUST maybe, it's a just a ridiculous book of fairy tales designed by men who wanted control other men and enslave them to something they could use and re-interpret at will.

Maybe it's JUST A BOOK of stuff, just like the Koran and the Torah and the Myths of Greece and Rome, and the stories of the Mithraic religion or Egyption religions or any others...

MAYBE, the ONLY way to truly know God IS the Buddhist way, of quieting ones soul/spirit/mind and really looking deeply into what is left..the essentialness of what makes us BEINGS, and really discerning for ourselves the true wonders of the universe and the reality of the ALL ONE thing that we are, that is God.

Hmmm...maybe?

B

PS. As you can tell, I had some time this morning, not sure when I will again, so I gave you a ton to chew on and think about.

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 09:20 AM
By the way. If it comes across like I have all the answers. I don't. I have the answers that make my soul satisfied and allow me to go through this world as a being of love and light and joy as much as I humanly can. And even in that I am always questing and questioning and searching for new avenues to explore. I love being alive and exploring all the wonder around me.

If I come across as being offensive to anyone, I am truly sorry and I will honestly drop this and never bring it up again, because it is NEVER my intention to hurt anyone, or screw with your soul. If you feel pain or as if you cannot believe what you believe and be a camgirl/stripper/etc. then I hope my words help show there are other ways to interpret GOD.

THAT was my motivation for opening my mouth. God doesn't care if you strip or get naked on cam.

Also BS, I realize this isn't a place for religious debate, and yet we have one and it is fun thusfar. I do not expect you to be able to answer point for point, and hope we reach some levels of agreement as well. However I did want to say, I have brought this stuff up to pastors and priests, reverends and Brothers in the Jesuit faith...and you are doing better than 90% of them ever do....which still leaves a lot to be desired as to real answers...since that is the one thing God seems to be really short on...REAL answers.

I love all you ladies, and if your Christian, just know I am not attacking you or your faith, just the stuff that seeks to undermine you being the best, most effective you, that you can be.

B

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 11:04 AM
Bambalina! I don't think I'll ever get anything done if we keep talking about this!

Number one, it was illegal to buy or sell anyone into slavery during these times. And anyone who did such, was surely killed.
Number two, "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

and let's use your own quote:
"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free."

That one is pretty self-explanatory.

"And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him."

Plus, there is really no clear definition of what 'slavery' was in The Bible. Most slavery was not how we think of slavery- slaves as property and commodities; their use exclusively as labor; and their lack of freedom. 'Slave' could also be refferring to (even in OT) someone who was below one that was socially superior... or could simply mean... 'worker', as a lot of 'slaves' worked voluntary.

and about innocents dying, babies, and all.. brings me BACK to the second coming: "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 12:30 PM
Okay, so beings you are going to give me some time to chew on this (skipped over that part before my initial response).. I will allow myself to indulge..

He talks about Coveting thy neighbors wife, and making graven idols, but somehow, DIRECTLY banning OWNING humans...Nope, God forgot that. Rape, he forgot that one too...And forget actually tackling issues he knew as an all-knowing deity would plague mankind forever like Race...God doesn't care about that shit, he cares that we make Golden Calves, and like our neighbors John Deere Mini Tractor...THOSE things are worthy of the Ten Commandments, but not Slavery and Rape.

lol @ our neighbors John Deere.. but yes.. that's pretty much it right there. The 10 commandments concern is mainly towards property.. but it also gives us the WWJD? way of thinking, instead of basically being greedy.. God has pretty good advice when it comes to debt and wanting things you cannot afford, if I must say so myself.




Many writings show that slavery was worse, that the ownership was complete and that to kill your slave was to just rid yourself of property.
Again:
"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished."


That God gets almost every attempt at scientific knowledge WRONG in the bible, thinks the Earth is flat, that the world can flood (and has no CLUE that Mount Everest is really tall and has Mount Ararat be the first thing dry)...is VERY telling. I mean, a book inspired by God and spoken by God, and God doesn't include anything...not ONE fact...of scientific knowledge of TODAY.
There are lots of scientific facts in the Bible.. let's go over some..
the earth is depicted as ROUND.. not flat.. with Isaiah: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
David and Solomon also show the earth is round.

Time and space: "In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the Earth (matter)... And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters."

Water Cycles: "For He draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly."-Job 36:27

The first underwater spring wasn't discovered until 1977.. the Bible says: "Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep?"-Job 38:16

The Bible supports many, many, scientific facts and discoveries.




I love how in every Christian I've ever discussed this stuff with, there is always the implicit thing that our faith...God remaining hidden from us and not outwardly revealing himself to the world, is always MORE important than SUFFERING, Lost Souls, Tormented souls in Hell, etc. Since there is always a reason why God should NOT just reveal himself in all his glory and ASK US to stop war. It's more important that we argue over religion and remain divided, than to actually just come on down and tell us which religion is right.

Because it just isn't time. God has a greater plan.. and, to be so simple; sometimes you have to go through a lot of rain to get to the rainbow.




Any being we've ever seen left functionally alone will go clinically insane fairly quickly, I mean, less than a few years...and that is with external stimulation...deserted island or whatever...






Job is NOT righteous. Allowing the rape of your daughters is NOT righteous. It is NEVER righteous and never will be or has been. So "pretty much acceptable" does NOT cut it for a holy book....sorry. Stoning your child to death for being rebellious, is NEVER acceptable. It doesn;t matter about times being different...it is NEVER "ok' and God COMMANDS it, and many many years later, Jesus re-affirms it.
To say that God allows rape is kind of crazy.. as with your own points in earlier conversations you pointed out that God in deed intervened with Sodom because of the rape of angels. But the Bible has been so lost in translation..that I am not even going to get into the 'thou shalt not kill' ordeal. The King James version of the Bible is horribly translated.. but any woman who cried out during rape was basically exasperated of all charges and was let free.
God's order to destroy a few cities, including women and children, was in fact a necessary, and even merciful judgment when viewed from the standpoint of the whole human race. Some had to die in order that many might be saved..

and maybe stoning your disobedient, drunken, gluttonous, child isn't such a bad thing.. but it's open for interpretation.




MAYBE, the ONLY way to truly know God IS the Buddhist way, of quieting ones soul/spirit/mind and really looking deeply into what is left..the essentialness of what makes us BEINGS, and really discerning for ourselves the true wonders of the universe and the reality of the ALL ONE thing that we are, that is God.

Well, I'll answer you with your own quote:


Any being we've ever seen left functionally alone will go clinically insane fairly quickly, I mean, less than a few years...and that is with external stimulation...deserted island or whatever...

However, I do agree that being in tune with yourself is much more important that haplessly following the masses. We no longer have any real time to inner reflect.. we are just too busy. Turn on, tune in, and drop out.. I agree.

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 02:33 PM
Sigh...

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.


Slavery.



12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Rape and Slavery.

------------------------------------------------------

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.



Marry your rapist and he must pay 50 shekels of Silver


----------------------------------------------------------------



2 Samuel 12:11-14

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

11 “This is what the LORD says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”
Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”


Lord God CAUSES rape, and then kills a child, and the whole thing supports polygamy and men OWNING women.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

God's Law:

Exodus 21:7-11

English Standard Version (ESV)

7"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated her[] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.


Allows men to sell their daughters as slaves, and the owner chooses to marry her off against her will (no rape involved? HIGHLY doubtful), or can have her himself along with his other wives.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Finally, here is The Law Jesus supported, at least the GOOD parts!


Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15)

1 Kings 20:35-36

New Living Translation (NLT)

A Prophet Condemns Ahab

35 Meanwhile, the Lord instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Hit me!” But the man refused to hit the prophet. 36 Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And when he had gone, a lion did attack and kill him.


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)


Anyway, this is like 10 minutes of looking online...I can find HUNDREDS more examples of God allowing rape, causing rape, condoning rape, and murder and slavery and pillaging, and child-slaughter and every other heinous crime ever, so we MUST be reading different bibles.

God is a consistently evil and nasty and angry being...with WRATH...lots and lots of WRATH...even though he presumably knew we would do all this stuff before he even created the universe, he still feels WRATH...strange..

Anyway....fun fun fun! Enjoy!

B

PS. One of my Faves:

All Loving compassionate and caring God...


Isaiah 13:15-18
15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.

17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 02:40 PM
Now...we SERIOUSLY need to find a better place to do this...some religion debate forum or something....it would be fun to have others jump in too!

B

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 04:23 PM
^^ All of that up there has been translated so badly, THAT's why it's so here and there. The most accurate Bible translation so far (they say) is The New American Standard Bible (old and new testaments). although some of your translations there are not written as how they are in NASB.. :) but with there being over 20 English TRANSLATIONS of The Bible.. well, who knows which is right?

And if it wasn't directly ordered/spoken by God/Christ.. I have no interest in debating that, because it's completely useless. What we are concerned with is what God does and doesn't approve of. **A loving God would never approve of killing, raping, etc.** The killings were done for the better good of humanity. Rape was never condoned by God or Christ (please show me where)... nor do we know if those 'virgins' were ever raped... and did it say anywhere in the Bible after all of that was done .. "and the Lord was happy"?

Yes, at that time the town would make a man marry a woman after raping her- because they just didn't know the psychological impact it would have on her. And let's remember- that the way we think today.. was nothing like how they thought, then. That's evolution of society.

Once more, I will also point out that man has repeatedly taken God's words and has manipulated them as such. Christianity is no different. So, the All-Mighty, Powerful, Loving, God that all the Christians speak of.. is the one in the Bible that points to all things beautiful, good, and peaceful...Humans make mistakes. Interpreting the word of God, who mere humans can't hope to comprehend, would be something we'd make mistakes in.

The Bible does not contain ANY fallacies or inaccuracies - only fallacious interpretations, erroneous dogmas, intellectual ineptitude and of course; deficiencies in historical knowledge.

Add- I also agree it would be interesting if others jumped into the convo. Where should we move this conversation to? I also want to include myself by saying that I'm not trying to put down any religion, or religious views of anyone, anywhere. Strictly debate.

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 09:35 PM
Just wanted to comment on this part, because Bambalina.. not to say that I could argue with each of those.. honestly, you have tapped me out.. at least for a while....



2 Samuel 12:11-14

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

11 “This is what the LORD says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”
Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”


Lord God CAUSES rape, and then kills a child, and the whole thing supports polygamy and men OWNING women.



To be honest, David was kind of a prick. And it's made very clear in the beginning of the Bible that "the wages of sin is death". That being said,.. it's pretty relative to the theory of 'karma'.. what goes around comes around. The Lord blessed David, and David started getting stupid and disobeyed God in front of every one. God couldn't just look the other way.. because then it would seem that God is okay with sin, and there are no consequences for it. And immediately after David found out that his child passed, he went and worshiped the Lord.

I don't think the death of a newborn is a fair consequence for what happened.. but who am I to judge that?

But later it says: “Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16)

Which just goes to show that every passage in the Bible is interpretive.

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 09:45 PM
The Bible does not contain ANY fallacies or inaccuracies - only fallacious interpretations, erroneous dogmas, intellectual ineptitude and of course deficiencies in historical knowledge.

Leviticus 25:44-46New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45 Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46 You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

This DIRECTLY approves of Slavery, allows it, and lays down rules (including being able to bequeathe your slaves and pass them on as property) for slavery. It is Leviticus, and it is your translation (NASB) from biblegateway.com ...Also, one must accept that the Koran, which never changes translation and is only REAL in Arabic, has an EXTREME measure of reliability over the Bible.

Also, a bit um, shall we say...strange that you use the passage you do up there...about Slavery, since the NEXT line reads (from the NASB):

21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

Which means beating slaves is fine and even if they die LATER it's ok, but if you beat them all the way to death right now, you will be punished...read the full passage, it proves MY point, not yours.

Ephesians 6:5

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

Now that is the NEW Testament.

As to scripture not containing anything even one iota wrong...(wow)

Deut 14:18 God thinks BATS are Birds.

Lev. 11:20-21 4 legged insects.

Matt. 13:31-32 Jesus says the Mustard Seed is the Smallest of ALL Seeds. Absolutely NOT true and provably so.

Isa. 11:12 The earth does not, being round, have 4 corners.

Rev. 7:1 The Earth, does not...being ROUND have 4 corners, and 4 angels cannot block ALL the winds by standing at said corners of the completely round Earth.

Daniel 4:11 Um, not matter how tall a tree is, it cannot be seen everywhere on a round Earth. They thought the world was FLAT, and this is absolute WRONGNESS in the Bible. Even if you are correct that ONE person thought it round, these others state that you can see one tree from both China and Canada, because it is SO TALL.

Matthew 4:8 No matter how high the mountain, one could not see all the kingdoms of the world, We can assume as well, that the exceedingly high mountain was no Taller Than EVEREST. Since no new mountains were reportly created or removed since the New Testament...So...Another absolute fallacy and provably so. Also proof that Jesus believed the world to be Flat as well.

These are scientific things...

I mean Mark 16:17-18, says you can drink ANY deadly poison if you believe in Christ and not be harmed...you can chug Cyanide and be FINE!

It is just ridiculous to say there is NO fallacies in the bible.

B

Bambalina
07-05-2011, 10:06 PM
To be honest, David was kind of a prick. And it's made very clear in the beginning of the Bible that "the wages of sin is death". That being said,.. it's pretty relative to the theory of 'karma'.. what goes around comes around. The Lord blessed David, and David started getting stupid and disobeyed God in front of every one. God couldn't just look the other way.. because then it would seem that God is okay with sin, and there are no consequences for it. And immediately after David found out that his child passed, he went and worshiped the Lord.

I don't think the death of a newborn is a fair consequence for what happened.. but who am I to judge that?

I agree David is a prick, I also agree that David deserved punishment as far as the Lord sees it...HOWEVER, he gave the wives to the neighbor to fuck in front of the whole world, and unless we assume those women just happened to LIKE the neighbor and want him, that would be RAPE. And c'mon, are you going to reach so far as to say we should assume these women (who God made commit Adultery, an offense punishable by Death) WANTED to fuck the neighbor? Wanted to commit the Deady Sin of Adultery? If not you MUST assume God caused their rape.

And you may not be able to judge God for killing an innocent child who committed no sin...you may also be able to rationalize why the mother of that child should suffer the intolerable loss of a child...I cannot and choose to believe a God like that, is fiction. And that the REAL power of the Universe has nothing to with that sort of crap.

I mean for now...THIS is our agree to disagree. I cannot put my faith and belief in any deity that so blithely sends two women to the neighbor to be raped and kills the child because DAVID did some shit...Torture David...put David in HELL, whatever, but leave innocents out of it.

So for all the reasons I post above, and these...I reject the BIBLICAL version of God.

Feel free to have the last word, because it doesn't much matter in this context.

I'd like to hang out and talk some more sometime. I like you and enjoy it, but I don;t see it bearing fruit in the sense that, for me, like most Christians, you don;t see how many excuses and apologies, and rationalizations, and most of all "God works in Mysterious ways, who am I to question?" that pervades all discussion with religious folk. Don't get me wrong, I DID have fun, but it still comes down to a certain level of disagreement that becomes immutable...y'know?

For now...I do think you'd TOTALLY enjoy this page:



and their Forum as well. Good fun!

B

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 10:45 PM
Leviticus 25:44-46New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45 Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46 You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

This DIRECTLY approves of Slavery, allows it, and lays down rules (including being able to bequeathe your slaves and pass them on as property) for slavery. It is Leviticus, and it is your translation (NASB) from biblegateway.com ...Also, one must accept that the Koran, which never changes translation and is only REAL in Arabic, has an EXTREME measure of reliability over the Bible.

Also, a bit um, shall we say...strange that you use the passage you do up there...about Slavery, since the NEXT line reads (from the NASB):

21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

Which means beating slaves is fine and even if they die LATER it's ok, but if you beat them all the way to death right now, you will be punished...read the full passage, it proves MY point, not yours.

Ephesians 6:5

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

Now that is the NEW Testament.

As to scripture not containing anything even one iota wrong...(wow)

Deut 14:18 God thinks BATS are Birds.

Lev. 11:20-21 4 legged insects.

Matt. 13:31-32 Jesus says the Mustard Seed is the Smallest of ALL Seeds. Absolutely NOT true and provably so.

Isa. 11:12 The earth does not, being round, have 4 corners.

Rev. 7:1 The Earth, does not...being ROUND have 4 corners, and 4 angels cannot block ALL the winds by standing at said corners of the completely round Earth.

Daniel 4:11 Um, not matter how tall a tree is, it cannot be seen everywhere on a round Earth. They thought the world was FLAT, and this is absolute WRONGNESS in the Bible. Even if you are correct that ONE person thought it round, these others state that you can see one tree from both China and Canada, because it is SO TALL.

Matthew 4:8 No matter how high the mountain, one could not see all the kingdoms of the world, We can assume as well, that the exceedingly high mountain was no Taller Than EVEREST. Since no new mountains were reportly created or removed since the New Testament...So...Another absolute fallacy and provably so. Also proof that Jesus believed the world to be Flat as well.

These are scientific things...

I mean Mark 16:17-18, says you can drink ANY deadly poison if you believe in Christ and not be harmed...you can chug Cyanide and be FINE!

It is just ridiculous to say there is NO fallacies in the bible.

B

All interpretative.

I've already explained where Isaiah basically says the earth is round and expanding.. and TWO others. Please see above.

Vengeance is always taken when it comes to death.

Slavery was not condoned by God. I promise you. At least, not in the way you think. Slaves and Servants are also two different classes of people. Those who WERE thrown into slavery, is basically for the same reason we throw people into jail now. In fact, Abraham was going to will his whole estate to one of his servants.

Mark 16:17-18 ... is about when Jesus was actually going around performing miracles..

Jesus uses the mustard seed for comparing things in size.

God thinking bats are birds is just.. ridiculous.. another KJV discrepancy. As this was Hebrew.. and we all know it's scientific fact that animals must be described by phylum first.. that would be wing... that's what they used.

I've got to go to sleep now...

BlankStare
07-05-2011, 10:49 PM
I agree David is a prick, I also agree that David deserved punishment as far as the Lord sees it...HOWEVER, he gave the wives to the neighbor to fuck in front of the whole world, and unless we assume those women just happened to LIKE the neighbor and want him, that would be RAPE. And c'mon, are you going to reach so far as to say we should assume these women (who God made commit Adultery, an offense punishable by Death) WANTED to fuck the neighbor? Wanted to commit the Deady Sin of Adultery? If not you MUST assume God caused their rape.

And you may not be able to judge God for killing an innocent child who committed no sin...you may also be able to rationalize why the mother of that child should suffer the intolerable loss of a child...I cannot and choose to believe a God like that, is fiction. And that the REAL power of the Universe has nothing to with that sort of crap.

I mean for now...THIS is our agree to disagree. I cannot put my faith and belief in any deity that so blithely sends two women to the neighbor to be raped and kills the child because DAVID did some shit...Torture David...put David in HELL, whatever, but leave innocents out of it.

So for all the reasons I post above, and these...I reject the BIBLICAL version of God.

Feel free to have the last word, because it doesn't much matter in this context.

I'd like to hang out and talk some more sometime. I like you and enjoy it, but I don;t see it bearing fruit in the sense that, for me, like most Christians, you don;t see how many excuses and apologies, and rationalizations, and most of all "God works in Mysterious ways, who am I to question?" that pervades all discussion with religious folk. Don't get me wrong, I DID have fun, but it still comes down to a certain level of disagreement that becomes immutable...y'know?

For now...I do think you'd TOTALLY enjoy this page:

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Theological_Criticisms#Arguments_Against_Scripture

and their Forum as well. Good fun!

B


I will check it out, definitely. Thanks for the thought-provoking debate.. I pretty much agree with you on what the Bible is (and isn't).. for the most part. Just nice to have someone to go back and forth with.. without being a complete troll :D

Bambalina
07-06-2011, 10:45 AM
I'll keep doing it too. But we need to find a nice private place where we can have our fun, and then sell tickets to the imaginary hordes who want to watch us...

:)

By the way, God says that bats are birds at least twice in the bible and possibly 3 times.

And You're right about Jesus, but he still stated that the mustard seed is the smallest seed of all, and it wasn't..not even close. So he WAS wrong, and the bible continues to spread his wrongness.

I just wanted to clearly make the point that bible is not inerrant. It has things in it which are contradictory, wrong, just plain stupid (the drinking poison thing, which qualifies for wrongness on SO MANY levels), and Bad Advice, Bad Morals, Bad Judgement, and Bad Writing (the gospels trying and stretching so hard to have Jesus fulfill the prophet's words...riding in on two donkeys).

Lastly, everything I wrote in the last 24 hours since you said it, has been ostensibly from the version and translation of the bible you prefer, NOT the KJV. If the Bible sites got it wrong, don't blame me.

B

Oh and it might be good to have this discussion on the Freethinkers board since neither of us are atheists...so we will get them QUITE riled up...