View Full Version : Defending stripping to feminists
Djoser
07-04-2011, 05:33 PM
That is a fact.
They need to start spreading the word to their sisters, or maybe find a more effective way of doing so. This industry is a fucking mess right now.
But as you say, some strong-willed women can survive and prosper in spite of the situation--and shutting it down on the behest of misguided feminists is not the answer.
So feminists don't quite "get it" ...obviously.
I never said that. I said 'misguided feminists' were trying to shut down the industry. But a group of them were apparently willing to listen to the OP, which is what started this, sje came here looking for advice about it.
But I like your points.
Except I disagree about the bit with 'feminazis'. I've heard respected feminists with a sense of humor use the term in private.
In this context, i.e. extremely misguided feminists trying to shut down all stripclubs in the OP's area, I don't think the use of the term 'feminazis' is out of line, especially since the 'feminazis' in question will never see it, and thus possibly become even more alienated from the strippers they are already trying to put out of work.
Kellydancer
07-04-2011, 05:40 PM
Btw, I know someone who works for NOW nationally and she confided in me that many of the top feminists themselves call the more radical feminists feminazi. I hate the word myself because I did lose relatives because of Nazis but I dislike the extremes in any group. By the same token I can't stand the extreme strippers who tell everyone they are strippers and dress/act like it.
Djoser
07-04-2011, 05:50 PM
The woman I heard jokingly use the term 'feminazis' with her fellow feminist activists was on the President's Commission on the Status of Women several years running, traveled to Washington DC numerous times, pictures in the papers with the President, etc.
Granted the acceptability such terminology might hold could vary from person to person, but considering the term was being specifically applied to people trying to put us all out of business, I'm all for cutting the ones using it some slack.
SupaByoch
07-04-2011, 07:20 PM
Ugh. Camille, just stop it. I didn't call you a feminazi or a bitch - I used a general term in response to your general statements and you assumed it was about you. I assure you, it was not about you. But if you insist on taking it so personally, that's a reflection of your own self confidence or lack thereof. The way you constantly try to look down on others who disagree with you is very telling also.
You posted several offensive monologues before I said anything, then my brief response sent you on a rampage. That's your issue.
You also attempt to discredit everything I say by making it a personal attack to deflect from the REAL substance of what is being said. What is being expressed here is what we feel about having to defend our livelihoods from people who know nothing about us yet assume we need their completely misguided "protection". Very much on topic.
The simple fact is, feminists' insistence that sex business needs to be shut down and that they don't care about the reasons the WOMEN involved are against that shows just how much they aren't trying to protect sex workers from anything, but just trying to push their own personal agendas. Just like the bible thumpers.
So I say once again: when feminist zealots stop trying to shut down our chosen businesses, and actually start offering SUPPORT to sex workers, then we might get somewhere. Sex workers are some of the most vehement advocates of women's rights, but as long as feminist groups work against us rather than WITH us, animosity will rule the day.
I would like to see more feminists advocating for sex workers on a positive level. Seek to decriminalize our business. Redirect efforts from shutting down our businesses to setup support for abused sex workers, education, career counseling, etc instead. That would be so much more productive and helpful.
twigs
07-04-2011, 08:33 PM
People have a right to do with their bodies as they wish. Feminists rally for the right of abortion which I also agree is the right of every woman. I think people also should have the right to off themselves if they want and get as bombed off drugs and booze as they want. Makes for much needed population control along with the fact that the are OUR BODIES. A victimless crime is a victimless crime. Anything in excess or being abused has the danger and potential to work into an actual crime or instance of abuse but EVERYTHING is like that. Banning shit just makes the situation much worse. That is such a historical truth that people keep avoiding and just look how our civilization keeps back tracking to the same old mistakes as a result.
Feminists used to be bitter enemies with christian conservatives (the real nazis) but now that they have gotten so warped and jaded on the issues, they stand shoulder to shoulder with them and hardly even care that Christain conservatives have a deep seeded goal in eradicating female liberties in society. As long as they can drum support via hatred over things like porn it just doesn't seem to matter anymore does it?.
It is wonderful that you have such passion Camille but you are wasting your time.
camille27
07-04-2011, 09:04 PM
honestly, i'm not sure what you're talking about in most of your post, but i never consider voicing the reality of many women to be a waste of time. passion is not meant to be silenced. that's totally purpose defeating.
if there is disagreement, disagree. if you want to be mad, be mad. it's the internet. really, everyone will get over it.
People have a right to do with their bodies as they wish. Feminists rally for the right of abortion which I also agree is the right of every woman. I think people also should have the right to off themselves if they want and get as bombed off drugs and booze as they want. Makes for much needed population control along with the fact that the are OUR BODIES. A victimless crime is a victimless crime. Anything in excess or being abused has the danger and potential to work into an actual crime or instance of abuse but EVERYTHING is like that. Banning shit just makes the situation much worse. That is such a historical truth that people keep avoiding and just look how our civilization keeps back tracking to the same old mistakes as a result.
Feminists used to be bitter enemies with christian conservatives (the real nazis) but now that they have gotten so warped and jaded on the issues, they stand shoulder to shoulder with them and hardly even care that Christain conservatives have a deep seeded goal in eradicating female liberties in society. As long as they can drum support via hatred over things like porn it just doesn't seem to matter anymore does it?.
It is wonderful that you have such passion Camille but you are wasting your time.
twigs
07-05-2011, 03:15 PM
honestly, i'm not sure what you're talking about in most of your post, but i never consider voicing the reality of many women to be a waste of time. passion is not meant to be silenced. that's totally purpose defeating.
if there is disagreement, disagree. if you want to be mad, be mad. it's the internet. really, everyone will get over it.
OK,.. just what "reality" are you even talking about? Yeah, women get screwed over every day, so do men, so do chips. When a persons liberty is being taken away, THAT is exploitation but you can't out an entire industry based on any instances when it is abused.
I advocate for contract and labor ethics in adult entertainment. a lot of adult entertainment websites do fuck over their models and take advantage of them. Does this make adult entertainment itself wrong? NO.
And how are you now "mad"? you have been posting stomping ape shit on people all over this thread.
Brandi_Lynn
07-05-2011, 03:27 PM
I've noticed that nobody really has particularly helped Kittinboots in her thread.....maybe if somebody would like to steer the thread back to the Op, perhaps...?:-\
Cyrano22
07-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Meanwhile Ashton Kutcher is taking down the Village Voice over the right of women to advertize there...
http://gawker.com/5817554/ashton-kutcher-will-destroy-newspaper-over-sex-slavery-article
Brandi_Lynn
07-05-2011, 04:26 PM
Meanwhile Ashton Kutcher is taking down the Village Voice over the right of women to advertize there...
http://gawker.com/5817554/ashton-kutcher-will-destroy-newspaper-over-sex-slavery-article
Did you read about his & Demi's necklace designs for their charity? little gold handcuffs....Lol! Wtf! Obviously, they were thinking about the fashion aspect alil more on that end, huh. ::)
http://wonderwall.msn.com/movies/just-wondering-are-ashton-and-demis-charity-handcuff-necklaces-in-bad-taste-1605557.story
http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/ashton-kutcher-demi-moore-child-sex-slavery-handcuff-necklaces/
beckatron
07-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Ugh. Camille, just stop it. I didn't call you a feminazi or a bitch - I used a general term in response to your general statements and you assumed it was about you.
[...]
Sex workers are some of the most vehement advocates of women's rights, but as long as feminist groups work against us rather than WITH us, animosity will rule the day.
I would like to see more feminists advocating for sex workers on a positive level. Seek to decriminalize our business. Redirect efforts from shutting down our businesses to setup support for abused sex workers, education, career counseling, etc instead. That would be so much more productive and helpful.
SuperByotch (and Djoser), except for using that word I agree with you. Camille, we already know we're playing on the same field-ish and I heart you muchly. I'm not sure this vehement disagreement is warranted.
Yes, some feminists hate the sex industry. They are probably still going to hate it, no matter what you say. But there are some (and I include myself among these!) that want to hear you. Let's chat with them, we're smart, supportive women and we know whats up in our particular trenches.
Are we really fighting on the internet? I mean... really. On a high-profile forum?
OP, I hope you get the chance to discuss this with the opposers in your area. If I can help anymore please feel free to PM :)
PS. Because I want to shout it as LOUD AS I CAN FROM THE TOP OF A MOUNTAIN:
Support for abused sex workers: SACHA Hamilton 905-525-4162
Reporting a sex-industry sexual assault in Canada: www.spoc.ca
Community support: http://maggiestoronto.ca/
SupaByoch
07-07-2011, 08:22 AM
I've noticed that nobody really has particularly helped Kittinboots in her thread.....maybe if somebody would like to steer the thread back to the Op, perhaps...?:-\
Actually most of what I've said here was just that. Things I personally would say to a group of feminist activists trying to shut down local clubs. Obviously I would say it in a more professional way in that context LOL!
Much of what's been said here by most people is making valid points on the subject. It all just got diluted with drama-llama antics.
*******************
Everyone: as for use of the word feminazi - everyone please just take it in context and get over it. This is an adult board for people who live on the fringes of society - who shouldn't need to be coddled with politically-correct terminology in order to have a discussion. Especially when it should be plainly obvious how a term is being used if one exercises her/his reading comprehension skills :)
Brandi_Lynn
07-07-2011, 12:49 PM
Actually most of what I've said here was just that. Things I personally would say to a group of feminist activists trying to shut down local clubs. Obviously I would say it in a more professional way in that context LOL!
Much of what's been said here by most people is making valid points on the subject. It all just got diluted with drama-llama antics.
*******************
Everyone: as for use of the word feminazi - everyone please just take it in context and get over it. This is an adult board for people who live on the fringes of society - who shouldn't need to be coddled with politically-correct terminology in order to have a discussion. Especially when it should be plainly obvious how a term is being used if one exercises her/his reading comprehension skills :)
Yes, I did notice that & agree. I was only implying that the thread did get really derailed in the mean, nasty way temporarily that wasn't helping the OP at the moment. But the other than that it was getting more helpful.
wellheeled
07-08-2011, 12:43 PM
First post, I used to post here a little but that account is messed up now. I actually took a couple years break from even thinking about stripping, and read a bunch about feminism during that time, and still read some feminist blogs. If you get asked to speak again, maybe this will be somewhat helpful:
- Don't say a word about how stripping has given you confidence or empowered you. Feminists of the breed who want to close strip clubs don't think that this is "real" confidence. They'll hear you and wish that you would find confidence in a way that has nothing to do with your body or how men perceive you.
- I think it might be a good idea to discuss how you and people you know have gotten out of really tough financial situations through stripping. Not about how you were able to go to Hawaii, but about how you got educated, got out of a bad relationship, can support your child now, etc.
Stress that in this imperfect world, there aren't great alternatives to stripping for women in bad situations. Our safety nets are poor. Remind them about how humiliating welfare and food stamps are, and how government-sponsored medical care is currently being chopped and changed. They think you should work at a minimum wage job instead? Employers who will pay you minimum wage will usually treat you just as badly as any strip club, and once you get into that you're working many hours and struggling to make rent with no time for school. The question is, what will these former strippers do? There is no idyllic fallback job that treats them all wonderfully and pays decently. In fact, in this recession there might not even BE a job waiting for many.
Labor, class, and feminist issues are all bundled up together. They're trying to address a feminist issue while ignoring its labor and class implications. That is going to create more problems they haven't thought about. If they don't want women to "have to be" strippers, why aren't they focusing more on creating support networks that help them achieve their goals, such as housing assistance and low-cost childcare? Many women have no support network.
- In terms of making men respect women more, closing strip clubs won't do that. If every "degrading" sexual outlet for men vanished, men who have disrespectful and objectifying attitudes toward women will still have these attitudes, and they will spill over into workplace and personal relationships same as they always have. The change they want will come from changing men's thinking, not from taking away their toys.
Hope this will help.
Djoser
07-08-2011, 03:16 PM
^^^Wow, great first post! Or first new post I guess lol.
wellheeled
07-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Thanks! Glad it makes sense to people. :)
Cyrano22
07-12-2011, 04:27 AM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/11/ashton-kutchers-crusade-against-sex-ads-rooted-in-prior-anti-prostitution-efforts/
This is not the same argument as the one made by Dvorkin et al in the 1980's "porn = rape."
Instead this is a 21st century revival of the early 20th century argument that "adult entertainment" feeds the market demand that makes human slavery profitable today...
"But if the mission of Kutcher’s newly founded charity The DNA Foundation is ending what he calls “child sex slavery,” why is he targeting a media company and an airline? Kutcher and the anti-trafficking advocates of his generation are following a political script with its roots in the Prohibition era -- one shown to be nearly as effective at ending abuse in the sex trade as the temperance movement was at ending the abuse of alcohol. Nonetheless, it is gaining credibility in Congress, and has already resulted in the closure of the online advertising service that was most accessible to law enforcement and sex workers alike.
Attempts to target and isolate companies that do business with people involved in commercial sex are all but directly derived from campaigns from the turn of the last century. In the lead-up to Prohibition, reformers capitalized on moral panics about what was then called “the white slave trade” – fears that thousands of young women from rural America were being kidnapped into cities to be forced into prostitution – as a means to shutdown red light districts and other businesses that prostitutes relied on for safe space to meet clients."
As to the success of this new paradigm for "framing" the sex industry just look at Georgia's new anti-trafficking law - the toughest in the country...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/georgia-sex-trafficking-law_n_894505.html
Cyrano22
07-19-2011, 04:50 AM
FYI Speaking of defending Sex workers to their "carceral" feminist critics...
Cyrano
From Feminisnt: http://www.feminisnt.com/2011/fund-americas-first-sex-workers-rights-billboard/
"
Fund America's first sex workers' rights billboard! (http://www.feminisnt.com/2011/fund-americas-first-sex-workers-rights-billboard/)
by Furry Girl
Fund America's first sex workers' rights billboard!
by Furry Girl
07.18.11
Yup, you read that right. SWAAY has just kicked off a campaign to put up a billboard in Los Angeles for one month. Go to EpicStep.com and pledge your support!
Why LA? Because for better or worse, as we've learned from Ashton Kutcher's dangerous bumblings, LA is filled with people that influence the nation, so I want to try and influence them. But, even if no one "important" ends up mentioning the campaign or helping it create buzz, there are still countless members of the general public that are going to see the billboard. (If this is successful, I'd love to run this billboard in other cities. Next on the list would probably be New York City, Washington DC, and Chicago.)
Billboard image: http://www.feminisnt.com/wp-content/uploads/billboard.jpg
Feminisnt
I'm an atheist who's been a full-time pornographer and sex worker for over 8 years. I'm a former "sex-positive feminist" who tired of trying to shoehorn my reality into a useless ideology like a pair of ill-fitting high heels. I oppose the modern feminist idea that women are inherently victims, brainwashed by "the patriarchy," and in need of a matriarchy to dictate the correct ways for us to behave. I operate SWAAY.org, the only American sex workers' rights project aimed at doing public outreach. I want to prove that supporting sex workers' rights is not just a cause for feminist hipsters, leftists, and sex radicals. My philosophy is informed primarily by Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice."
tampadancer
07-19-2011, 05:31 AM
My God - how did I miss this thread?
i qualify as a radical feminist and i am so oh so so so tempted to recite some of my favorite dworkin quotes.
Camille, where do I begin? First of all, I find it fascinating that you, as a sex worker, would agree with Dworkin's stance. And calling yourself a "radical feminist" makes me wonder if you truly understand what the term means.
But besides strongly disagreeing with your opinion, I am concerned about your inability to have a mature debate. You seem like a smart woman, but you really negate any power your thoughts may have by your vicious responses to anyone who disagrees with you. Many times on this forum, I have read responses from you that are unnecessarily inflammatory because you can't handle anyone challenging your point of view.
Debate is a wonderful thing. It helps you to understand different people's ideas and positions, even if you don't agree. It's not always about convincing others to side with you, but rather to educate others of a different perspective.
And I'm posting for those who like to be allowed to make their own choices without a bunch of zealots trying to limit their choices because they think they're better or smarter or more "moral". Ivory tower feminists are just as much bad news for women as the hard-right bible thumpers. If not worse, because you are women fighting against your very own. Ironic.
Agreed.
If feminists really want to help abused women in the sex industry, they should focus on empowering them to take control rather than shutting down their livelihood. That would be beneficial to us all and something we could actually get behind :)
Again, well said.
all of those self-righteous bitch militant feminists are busy working their asses off to defend the sex workers right to be treated as human beings.
As I said earlier, this makes me wonder if you really understand what a radical feminist is. The Dworkins and MacKinnons of the world are fighting to shut the industry down, not defend sex workers... radical feminists may believe they are defending sex workers, but it is by eliminating the industry so that they are no longer sex workers. They are not defending sex worker's rights for anything - their solution is to annihilate the industry as a whole.
honestly, i'm not sure what you're talking about in most of your post, but i never consider voicing the reality of many women to be a waste of time. passion is not meant to be silenced. that's totally purpose defeating.
if there is disagreement, disagree. if you want to be mad, be mad. it's the internet. really, everyone will get over it.
You are confusing passion with anger, Camille. And regarding that, the Dalai Lama said something the other day in an interview which I found profound (albeit, simple...some of the most profound things are the simplest!) - to paraphrase, anger doesn't hurt the person you're angry at... it isn't a form of revenge. It only hurts you.
It's a destructive emotion that you seem to have a lot of.
tampadancer
07-19-2011, 05:50 AM
Now, getting back to the OP, I wanted to share a recent experience.
I was taking a class called Feminist Ethnography. Unsurprisingly, the class was all female, and mostly radical feminists. I sat quietly many times and listened to diatribes by my classmates on the evils of the sex industry. I just figured it wasn't worth speaking out. I just wanted to get through the class.
Well, one day we were discussing a book about a Mexican brothel called "Lydia's Open Door." I found this book fascinating and I felt like it really leant itself to both the pros and cons of prostitution. The women in my class, however, only seemed to pick up on the cons. And the discussion soon turned away from the book and towards individual orations on why the sex industry is despicable.
So I couldn't take it anymore. Up until that point, I had always made thoughtful contributions in class, and my classmates respected me for that. I am the antithesis of the stripper stereotype, so I knew they would be shocked when I outed myself.
I did end up speaking up, carefully laying out my position on the sex industry, and then explaining my personal involvement, which gave me some authority on the topic. I was really impressed with the way the women responded. I mostly got a TON of questions from them and the opportunity to discredit some myths and stereotypes. I think for many of them, it was an "aha" moment, because they held so many assumptions about the sex industry while not truly understanding it. I have a hard time listening to someone trash the industry for being degrading to women, without ever having experienced it or considering the benefits. It's kind of like me trying to act as an authority on fatherhood - I am neither male nor a parent.
Anyways, I think that when you are discussing the sex industry with people who view it as vile, you have to carefully craft your position. And as I said earlier, it's not always about trying to convince others to believe what you do, but rather to help them understand why you take a particular, oppositional view.
Cyrano22
07-19-2011, 09:35 AM
Hmm Case in point Tampadancer. This is no academic debate..It's a public confrontation between POVs at the Women's World 2011 Conference held in Ottawa, Canada.
Cyrano
link: http://www.xtra.ca/public/Ottawa/Hostile_clashes_dominate_womens_conference-10497.aspx
Quote:
"Hostile clashes dominate women's conference
NEWS / Pro sex workers beaten down in name of feminism
Lara Purvis / Ottawa / Monday, July 18, 2011
At the recent Women's World 2011 Conference held in Ottawa, sex workers and their allies found themselves silenced and outnumbered by anti-sex work groups and a controversial art exhibit entitled "Flesh Mapping: Prostitution in a Globalized World".
Promoted as a global feminist conference, Women's World 2011 saw the convergence of almost 2000 women from 92 countries, from July 3 to 7 at the University of Ottawa.
Designed to bring together researchers and activists on women's issues, this year's event unexpectedly highlighted a deep and painful fissure in the feminist movement, with hostile clashes at the sex worker advocacy panels and in the common spaces over the course of the five days.
The week's schedule included numerous panels arguing, from various angles, to end global prostitution. This movement, more commonly associated with an earlier generation of anti-pornography, anti-sex work feminism argues that sex work is inherently exploitative of women, further entrenching patriarchal structures.
In comparison, the pro sex work groups at Women's World were small in number. Groups like Prostitutes of Ottawa/Gatineau Work, Educate and Resist (POWER), Toronto's Maggie's and Montreal's Stella work as sex worker advocacy groups arguing for the option to choose their occupation, safer working conditions and harm reduction strategies. Together they support groups like Sex Professionals of Canada (SPOC), which has made significant grounds in arguing for decriminalization in Canada.
The chasm between the two groups became obvious at the Women's World multi-media exhibit, "Flesh Mapping: Prostitution in a Globalized World" which attracted much attention among media and conference delegates and marked a strong prohibitionist ideology throughout the conference.
The multi-media exhibit included 70 used bed sheets as canvases that expressed sentiments, such as, "women are abandoned in the name of choice."
It was a disturbing exhibit for many but, for activists like Tuulia Law of SPOC and the president of Students for Sex Workers Rights at the University of Ottawa , it felt personal.
"It was a huge room - located ironically just down the hall from the Pride Centre - with messages about the horrors of prostitution and the impossibility of choice written all over, and a bed in the middle," says Law. "Even the name - they were mapping our flesh - I found incredibly offensive, but being in that room, with all the folk-art looking quilts and sheets that denied our existence and our choice, that denied the existence of choice in the sex industry at all, just made me want to die."
Oral presenters at the two sex worker advocacy panels were also harassed.
velvet
07-19-2011, 11:10 PM
Now, getting back to the OP, I wanted to share a recent experience.
I was taking a class called Feminist Ethnography. Unsurprisingly, the class was all female, and mostly radical feminists. I sat quietly many times and listened to diatribes by my classmates on the evils of the sex industry. I just figured it wasn't worth speaking out. I just wanted to get through the class.
Well, one day we were discussing a book about a Mexican brothel called "Lydia's Open Door." I found this book fascinating and I felt like it really leant itself to both the pros and cons of prostitution. The women in my class, however, only seemed to pick up on the cons. And the discussion soon turned away from the book and towards individual orations on why the sex industry is despicable.
So I couldn't take it anymore. Up until that point, I had always made thoughtful contributions in class, and my classmates respected me for that. I am the antithesis of the stripper stereotype, so I knew they would be shocked when I outed myself.
I did end up speaking up, carefully laying out my position on the sex industry, and then explaining my personal involvement, which gave me some authority on the topic. I was really impressed with the way the women responded. I mostly got a TON of questions from them and the opportunity to discredit some myths and stereotypes. I think for many of them, it was an "aha" moment, because they held so many assumptions about the sex industry while not truly understanding it. I have a hard time listening to someone trash the industry for being degrading to women, without ever having experienced it or considering the benefits. It's kind of like me trying to act as an authority on fatherhood - I am neither male nor a parent.
Anyways, I think that when you are discussing the sex industry with people who view it as vile, you have to carefully craft your position. And as I said earlier, it's not always about trying to convince others to believe what you do, but rather to help them understand why you take a particular, oppositional view.
i'm really interested in hearing more of what happened when you outed yourself and what they asked and what you helped discredit, if you wouldn't mind sharing. I think you mentioned before you did this but never really elaborated. if you don't feel like sharing i understand :)
tampadancer
07-20-2011, 05:50 AM
Velvet -
I think that most of them held all the stupid stereotypes about who becomes a stripper - those girls who are down and out, strung out on drugs, have been molested by family members, etc. etc. But more importantly, it was hard for the majority of the women to comprehend that any woman would willingly become a stripper. As if the only women who would dance were those who had absolutely no other options, AND, every woman that was a stripper surely hated the job.
I explained that there are certainly cons to stripping (and I was transparent with this - I illustrated some of the realistic downsides), but I asked them to compare those to the cons of working a minimum wage job at McDonalds. Most people who ever worked a menial job like this in high school or whatever can understand how shitty the work is - and usually, how shitty you are treated as a worker. So not only are you making NO money and getting treated with little respect, you ALSO have to work a fixed schedule. You're constantly under someone else's thumb.
They didn't understand that as a dancer, you essentially work for yourself. That you pay the club "rent" (house) to use the facilities. The idea of being able to work when you wanted, for how long you wanted, and dealing only with customers you wanted, was something they didn't connect with dancing. I also explained that for me, stripping was the opportunity to overtly display my sensuality. Being on stage, especially, was always this sort of transcendent experience for me. I felt so powerful. I made an argument for the use of feminine charms and sexuality as a form of empowerment. A couple of women came back and said "yeah, but a woman shouldn't have to use her body to attain power." To this, I responded, "okay, but is this form of power something that is equally available to men?" The truth is - it is not. I mean, it is what it is. Women possess the ability to captivate and charm through their sensuality in a way that isn't equally possible for men.
After about thirty minutes of back and forth discussion on this (it was totally respectful and diplomatic - something I loved about my grad classes), one of the women who had kept quiet through the entire discussion spoke up. She was a modern dancer and was working on her PhD in women's studies - and she admitted to also being a dancer! It was awesome :) So then the rest of the class was equally floored again.
I met with my professor a few days later, and she was so glad that I had spoke up. There had been other opportunities for me to do this earlier in the course, and she asked why I hadn't taken advantage of them. I told her that in my experience, sometimes it just isn't worth the hassle. And as a stripper in a room full of radical feminists, outing yourself can feel like releasing yourself to the sharks. But in the end, it was a great experience for all of us.
Cyrano22
07-20-2011, 05:59 AM
The radical feminist program for controlling sex trafficking by curbing demand for commercial sex just got a strong endorsement in the mainstream media from Newsweek and MSNBC.. Look that this article from last week about Melissa Farley's "research" on Johns...
"Newsweek: July 18th, 2011, Leslie Bennetts
The John Next Door
The men who buy sex are your neighbors and colleagues. A new study reveals how the burgeoning demand for porn and prostitutes is warping personal relationships and endangering women and girls."
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/07/17/the-growing-demand-for-prostitution.html
Here's the jist of Farley's findings:
"In a new study released exclusively to NEWSWEEK, “Comparing Sex Buyers With Men Who Don’t Buy Sex,” Farley provides some startling answers. Although the two groups share many attitudes about women and sex, they differ in significant ways illustrated by two quotes that serve as the report’s subtitle.
One man in the study explained why he likes to buy prostitutes: “You can have a good time with the servitude,” he said. A contrasting view was expressed by another man as the reason he doesn’t buy sex: “You’re supporting a system of degradation,” he said.
And yet buying sex is so pervasive that Farley’s team had a shockingly difficult time locating men who really don’t do it. The use of pornography, phone sex, lap dances, and other services has become so widespread that the researchers were forced to loosen their definition in order to assemble a 100-person control group.
“We had big, big trouble finding nonusers,” Farley says. “We finally had to settle on a definition of non-sex-buyers as men who have not been to a strip club more than two times in the past year, have not purchased a lap dance, have not used pornography more than one time in the last month, and have not purchased phone sex or the services of a sex worker, escort, erotic masseuse, or prostitute.”
Many experts believe the digital age has spawned an enormous increase in sexual exploitation; today anyone with access to the Internet can easily make a “date” through online postings, escort agencies, and other suppliers who cater to virtually any sexual predilection. The burgeoning demand has led to a dizzying proliferation of services so commonplace that many men don’t see erotic massages, strip clubs, or lap dances as forms of prostitution. “The more the commercial sex industry normalizes this behavior, the more of this behavior you get,” says Norma Ramos, executive director of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW)."
As Laura Agustin points out in her response to Farley's Newsweek article, "Melissa Farley and the US Government Want You To Stop Buying Sex," that the approach of controlling sex trafficking by "ending demand" for commercial sex services has now become the official policy of the US State Department, which has accepted the radical feminist program linking the growth of human trafficking to the growth of all types of sex commerce.
Agustin writes on her blog -
"Yesterday, Newsweek released a report on Melissa Farley’s nasty new study on men who buy sex of all kinds, which was funded by the Hunt Alternatives Fund as part of their 10-year plan to End Demand for buying sex. Now the latest Trafficking in Persons Report reveals that End Demand is also part of US government policy, which means that some of the big spending - $109 million last year – on anti-trafficking programmes is going to anti-client projects. US Trafficking magnate Luis CdeBaca attended the Hunt planning meetings, so this development is hardly a big surprise. I recently wrote about a World Gender War in the form of campaigns against male sexuality: desire, penetration and the penis itself., an international trend but money from a rich philanthropist certainly puts the US in charge.
The theory that if men stopped buying sex no one would offer it anymore is a breath-taking over-simplification of the many different services and desires involving money and sex and the multitude of social and cultural conditions involved. How people now selling sex as a livelihood would earn their living if clients disappear is never mentioned – which is disturbing. I appreciate that campaigners are talking long-term and utopically, but to never address economic and employment issues seriously? I hope they do not feel that preventing women from selling sex means saving them from a fate worse than death."
Look here: http://magazine.goodvibes.com/2011/07/19/melissa-farley-and-the-us-government-want-you-to-stop-buying-sex/
Newsweek is giving Farley's research a high profile endorsement - but we should bear in mind that the Canadian Court in Ontario DISQUALIFIED her as an "expert witness last Fall in the important court case decriminalizing solicitation, because her findings were not based on sound empirical research and reflected her ideological agenda as a radical prohibitionist feminist..
"Melissa Farley one of the leading American Feminist Scholars leading the push to criminalize all sex commerce on the grounds that prostitution is a form of personal violence that violates the personhood and human rights of "prostituted women," was disqualified as a expert witness testifying for the Government by the Judge presiding in the case on the following grounds:
In a recent decision in Ontario that struck down several discriminatory aspects of prostitution law, the judge observed about ‘expert witness’ Melissa Farley:
"Dr. Farley’s choice of language is at times inflammatory and detracts from her conclusions. . . Dr. Farley stated during cross-examination that some of her opinions on prostitution were formed prior to her research. . . For these reasons, I assign less weight to Dr. Farley’s evidence."
Link: http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2010/2010onsc4264/2010onsc4264.html
This history suggests to me at least that any public defense of the adult industry to feminist and/or liberal audiences must criticize Farley's qualifications as a researcher and the link being made between trafficking and the legal sex industry...
Cyrano
Kellydancer
07-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Wellheeled, that's a great first post and you hit everything on the mark. I was especially interested in the comment about men who don't respect of women and don't think strip clubs are pushing this view as musch as radical feminists would think.
Oh sure there are men who attend strip clubs who think of women as lesser beings, but I've found that many men who DON'T frequent clubs or anything sexual as thinking women are second class. I've known very religious people who think strip clubs are bad and so are working women. In fact this problem is glorified big time by the media. While I disapprove of commercials, shows, etc that portray women as sex objects, I'm more offended by those that portray women in stereotypical gender roles. I once contacted a company because they were calling women "chicks" in the commercial but this is tame compared to other things. For instance, there was a JCPenny commercial where the dad was unable to control the kids and the voiceover said "don't worry dad the sale is only one day". Then there is a product called the Rose Petal Cottage where it states things like "cleaning is fun". This ad is available at YouTube. Most of the sitcoms still show women as stay at home moms though most women work (ironically this is a reverse from the 80's where most moms in sitcoms had good jobs).
Then of course there is the problem where women in the corporate world are STILL paid less than men. The traditional thinking is it's because women quit to have babies but since most moms work (yes even mothers of newborns)this doesn't hold true now. This sexism starts right out of college when presumably neither the man nor women would have kids. I'm hoping as the baby boomers retire this thinking will too. Luckily it has gotten better but not what it should be.
These are issues radical feminists should be working on, NOT strip clubs. Contrary to what they think not all women enter the business because they are hard up and poor. Some just know their options are either this or work a job where they may face sexism and little pay.
Minaya
07-21-2011, 12:56 AM
Greetings everyone,
Here are some things to use when discussing the pros of dancing with anyone:
- Yes, there are women who are in the business as victims and who get hooked on drugs and alcohol; however, for every one that we see that is an utter mess, how many do we see that uses the job to provide for her family, to open a business, to get a college degree or otherwise saves her money and retires from dancing in a proper manner? I have seen girls who went from being dancers to being nurses, studying to becoming a Lawyer, open their own business, expand their networks for their business, save and retire, manage clubs, enter a corporate career, OWN their own club, marrying good guys and raising a family with them, become real estate agents, go to massage or beauty school, and do many other things. Many of these are women who without dancing would have been stuck in minimum wage jobs, not had the opportunity to study, would have not been able to raise their children on their own. So yes, for many women dancing provides incredible opportunities to earn really good money without having to kill yourself working overtime to do so. I knew two Korean woman in one town who owned clubs; one went from dancing and having nothing, to having millions of dollars and owning her own club. She was in charge of the club and of her relationship with her husband. The other had and raised her kids very well; not sure if she danced before, but I'm sure she did. She was the BEST club owner I ever worked for; like a mom to all of us. And these are women from a culture where they are usually subservient to men and having to rely on them for everything; they were both immigrant women who probably came here with NOTHING. In that town the people wanting to shut down the clubs won a major victory and turned all the clubs into practically bikini bars. Just about destroyed the economy in that town and ruined the lives of countless of people. I'm glad those two had many good years before things went downhill.
- In a club things may look like they are not in the power and control of the women but they actually are. She decides when she works, who she dances for, how she is treated, and trust ME in most clubs, if a guy handles himself wrong -- the bouncers will do their job and throw him out. This to me says the power is in the hands of the woman, not the man. Those who do not believe this, see how far a rude customer will get in MOST clubs? I've seen girls get guys kicked out for all sorts of behavior, and the power is ALWAYS with the woman in most clubs.
Then keep in mind the economics, the guy pays anywhere from 20 dollars for five minutes of dancing, to three hundred for half an hour of company and conversation in the high end clubs. He works two hours or more for that dance, she works three minutes for it. For a champagne room most guys spend about 25% of their weekly pay check; for her it's just 30 minutes of dancing and conversation.. and trust me, most of the guys who come into the clubs work VERY hard for that sort of money they spend there for a few hours of company. Who has the power there?
In a club a man has to treat a woman with at least some respect and must PAY for her attention and dances..he cannot simply demand it just because he's a man. He can't force himself on her. If he's a douche bag, he'll lose out to the guys who will treat a woman right. In many cases he won't last in the club long, or will find himself very lonely very quickly. The ladies who work in clubs know it's easy to walk off if a guy treats them wrong or says the wrong thing to them -- heck in some cities the guys get hassled for not paying JUST for being in a club. You can also tell the feminists that most of the dancers we known are not pretty little wall flowers who will tolerate a lot of rude and condescending bs from people. I personally saw a guy who dared to spit on a girls stage; and security could not get there as quickly as she leaped off stage chasing him into the man's bathroom cussing him out nearly naked. She would have probably hurt him had security not kicked him out of the club. Another girl I knew was known for kicking guys who touched her and slapped them for it; this was in a no touching club. I don't think any of you girls have EVER seen security protect a customer from a dancer? I haven't; and that's a fine point to share with any opposing groups about the power dynamics of a club. But I've seen guys beaten hard and thrown out very violently for being aggressive with dancers. So again, use that to ask who has the real power in a club?
- Making 20 to 50 dollar per hour for choosing your own hours and being your own boss is not demeaning, making five dollars an hour and being told when, where and how to work is demeaning. I'm sure most feminists would agree that minimum wage slavery is not empowering; but being able to pay your rent / mortgage from a few days of working is very empowering. If that does not work ask them to think of trying to balancing a regular wage - slave job and opening your own business or studying and see how far they could get.
- Dancing is one of the only jobs where you can easily leave a city with little economic opportunity and move to a better one in only a short time; while in many other jobs you are essentially stuck in your area. There are hundreds of cities a dancer can just move and start dancing, getting an apartment fairly quickly. I've been able to get out of bad economy cities into better ones quite a few times, often very quickly if needed. It's also one of the few jobs where you can travel all around and make good money if needed. Lastly, it may help to make those opposing the clubs aware that it's also one of the few jobs where a woman can be independent enough NOT to have to stay with an abusive man. It gives us options and opportunities; where otherwise there might not be any. Shutting clubs down and restricting them into unreasonable standards ONLY hurts women, not empowers them. To prove this I had wanted to go stay with my mom for two months working at an old club I used to work at a few years ago this summer near her; but the city had protested enough and got it turned into a bikini bar. Now there is not enough money for me to make there to make a two month trip; as such it limited MY choices and hurt the women there. I know for sure it didn't do jack to stop the "patriarchy" or was it meant to empower women; as it was the extreme right wing bible conservatives who most likely lobbied for this to happen and won. So for freedom of choice and better economic opportunity dancing is great; to close clubs only harms the choices of women.
- The confidence that is gained from dancing may not seem like much to people, but it DOES help with self esteem when you are being complimented and get paid for being beautiful and for your conversations. Furthermore many dancers I know have great people skills because they learned a lot about all types of people from dancing, have made a lot of professional connections because they became excellent in networking and have learned tons of sales skills from hustling the floor every night. Having some other dancers come with you to represent their case in front of the feminist group may be helpful and will let them see personally what type of effect dancing has on women.
So, yes the job has a few negatives, but many women use it to really further themselves and it should not be taken away as it's a choice for us. It is a valid choice to work for our money and be independent, rather than being forced to rely on a man or government for our well-being.
Like others have said here I'd rather see more focus on programs to help women who are being abused by their men at home, more programs for sex workers who really are being forced into things and have no where else to turn, and overall speaking out about the difference in pay between men and women in regular jobs. Let those of us who are making a living on our own terms out of it though.
What I'd also like to see is more clubs and sex business being owned by ex dancers and waitresses -- and people actually taking women owned sex businesses seriously. Removing stigma from sex workers would also be a step in the right direction. If we as women are supposed to have rights over our bodies; then make sure we have RIGHTS over our bodies in all areas not just in some of them.
There are plenty of countries where women have no rights at all and there are plenty of outdated beliefs all round the world that need a good shove in the trash bin. Dancing and the sex industry where women actually have choices over their bodies should be the last place to fight against....
Sorry for the rambling... but I can't see how feminists can take the same stand on this issue as those very people who want women to be property of men, barefoot and pregnant at home and who believe we are meant by god to submit to men.
Minaya --- Dancer AND Feminist
wellheeled
07-21-2011, 06:03 PM
Thanks, Kellydancer!
I would say that approximately 0-0.5% of guys who frequent strip clubs qualify as feminists in any real way. There may be a few guys who get feminism, but occasionally need to unleash the side that likes hot young boobs in the face before returning to the land of truth, beauty, and justice. But I'd say pretty much all the men I've encountered in a club think that a woman's value has a lot to do with her man-pleasing abilities, whether she's a stripper or a coworker or his wife. At first glance, this seems to make strip clubs into bastions of anti-feminist thought... until, as you said, you realize that the vast majority of men (AND a large majority of women) in most formal and informal gathering places more or less judge a woman's worth by her man-pleasing abilities (looks, domestic skills, sexual skills, general willingness to please).
Um, I didn't get that from a study. People can feel free to disagree if they wish, but that is what I've gotten from observing the world around me. In other words, there are few men anywhere who really qualify as feminists or feminist advocates. I live in lovely, progressive San Francisco, and even in our weird counterculture communities, I've still met a good chunk of men who base their judgment of women on fuckability. Not all, mind you, but many. When I interact in more mainstream communities, I end up meeting very few men who don't make typical dudebro comments at some point or other.
I believe that strip clubs get picked on because they're institutions that are actually based on the notion that women should be pleasing to men. Most other institutions have people within them who believe that women should cater to men, and many times these people wield so much influence that man-pleasing seeps into and permeates the culture of the institution. If, however, you were able to wave a magic wand and turn everyone in the world into a feminist, you would find that sports bars, advertising companies, and even religions would be able to survive. They would need to make huge changes to adapt, but they could still be there. Strip clubs, though - they would be gone.
Strip clubs naturally disappearing in a feminist utopia, though, is very different from strip clubs being forced to disappear in a world where they are still very much wanted. Feminists should work on making changes that will reduce women's need to work in strip clubs and men's desire to frequent them. As long as getting naked remains the best option for many women to get ahead, and as long as men still want to go get pleased and entertained by fantasy women, there will exist a strip club-like industry.
SweetNaughty
07-21-2011, 08:27 PM
How many elements go into "fuckability?" I propose a different term - "boinkable index."
Kellydancer
07-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Thanks, Kellydancer!
I would say that approximately 0-0.5% of guys who frequent strip clubs qualify as feminists in any real way. There may be a few guys who get feminism, but occasionally need to unleash the side that likes hot young boobs in the face before returning to the land of truth, beauty, and justice. But I'd say pretty much all the men I've encountered in a club think that a woman's value has a lot to do with her man-pleasing abilities, whether she's a stripper or a coworker or his wife. At first glance, this seems to make strip clubs into bastions of anti-feminist thought... until, as you said, you realize that the vast majority of men (AND a large majority of women) in most formal and informal gathering places more or less judge a woman's worth by her man-pleasing abilities (looks, domestic skills, sexual skills, general willingness to please).
Um, I didn't get that from a study. People can feel free to disagree if they wish, but that is what I've gotten from observing the world around me. In other words, there are few men anywhere who really qualify as feminists or feminist advocates. I live in lovely, progressive San Francisco, and even in our weird counterculture communities, I've still met a good chunk of men who base their judgment of women on fuckability. Not all, mind you, but many. When I interact in more mainstream communities, I end up meeting very few men who don't make typical dudebro comments at some point or other.
I believe that strip clubs get picked on because they're institutions that are actually based on the notion that women should be pleasing to men. Most other institutions have people within them who believe that women should cater to men, and many times these people wield so much influence that man-pleasing seeps into and permeates the culture of the institution. If, however, you were able to wave a magic wand and turn everyone in the world into a feminist, you would find that sports bars, advertising companies, and even religions would be able to survive. They would need to make huge changes to adapt, but they could still be there. Strip clubs, though - they would be gone.
Strip clubs naturally disappearing in a feminist utopia, though, is very different from strip clubs being forced to disappear in a world where they are still very much wanted. Feminists should work on making changes that will reduce women's need to work in strip clubs and men's desire to frequent them. As long as getting naked remains the best option for many women to get ahead, and as long as men still want to go get pleased and entertained by fantasy women, there will exist a strip club-like industry.
Can't disagree with anything you posted. You know, you bring up the idea how many men think of women as sex objects and that is a problem everywhere. Right now I am doing online dating and easily 90% of the guys contact me because they think I am hot. Not all guys, but many value women by how attractive they are. Attractive people do have it easier in many respects. Add in the stereotypes about stripping and the guys think strippers are whores, so in other words many guys go to see hot girls they think are also easy. Of course not all are, but they don't know this.
SweetNaughty
07-21-2011, 10:25 PM
Well, I can tell you as an average-looking GUY, women aren't that interested in getting to know me, or discovering if I am funny, or how well I dress or dance or if I am an easy lay. They just ignore me all together. Is that reverse sexism? Am I also largely evaluated on my looks and how I can please a woman?
Women LOVE to play the victim, but I have found that if they have the upper hand (especially good looking women with their own money) they can be complete (insert b-word here) and can be as mean and shallow as men reliably are. I think the only difference between men and women is women are less likely to be "players." Otherwise there is no moral high ground for either sex.
Kellydancer
07-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Well, I can tell you as an average-looking GUY, women aren't that interested in getting to know me, or discovering if I am funny, or how well I dress or dance or if I am an easy lay. They just ignore me all together. Is that reverse sexism? Am I also largely evaluated on my looks and how I can please a woman?
Women LOVE to play the victim, but I have found that if they have the upper hand (especially good looking women with their own money) they can be complete (insert b-word here) and can be as mean and shallow as men reliably are. I think the only difference between men and women is women are less likely to be "players." Otherwise there is no moral high ground for either sex.
I can't speak for other women, but everytime I hear an "average" guy complaining I think he's either just a nasty guy or wants a woman way out of his league. This has been my experience. For instance I had this guy friend who was over 300 pounds at 5'8, smelly, no job and at 40 he lived with his parents and never had moved out. He would complain he couldn't find a woman until I saw his dating profile: he was looking for a tall blonde woman between 18-25 with a great job. There were a few women interested in him but he refused to date them because they were heavy (not fat mind you, he was fat though).
Then there was my ex. By all standards he could never be called nice looking. He was not very attractive and he got fat. He would complain that women all used him, and though I fell in love with him he hurt me. He had an attractive woman (me) in love with him yet he decided to treat me like crap.
So yep I am cynical when a guy talks about how he's overlooked. Sure, many younger women are all about the looks, especially if attractive (I was this way)but then older men need to stop pursuing them and look for a woman their age! I see so many guys on online sites who are extremely picky then they wonder why women don't like them.
beckatron
07-22-2011, 01:20 PM
I did end up speaking up, carefully laying out my position on the sex industry, and then explaining my personal involvement, which gave me some authority on the topic. I was really impressed with the way the women responded. I mostly got a TON of questions from them and the opportunity to discredit some myths and stereotypes. I think for many of them, it was an "aha" moment, because they held so many assumptions about the sex industry while not truly understanding it. I have a hard time listening to someone trash the industry for being degrading to women, without ever having experienced it or considering the benefits. It's kind of like me trying to act as an authority on fatherhood - I am neither male nor a parent.
Good for you for speaking up! I'm so happy you got such a positive response... I'm of the personal opinion that everyone involved in feminism/women's studies topics ought to be exposed to someone who can articulately present the pros as well as the cons.
marisaleigh
07-26-2011, 07:47 PM
Above, Cyrano mentions the "real men" campaign, Asthon Kutcher etc. I absolutely agree, a lot of amateur activists, and even self-proclaimed "experts" on sex work are making TONS of noise, gaining LOTS of traction and worth worrying about. I hear about new and pending legislation constantly, and underaged trafficking victims are being lumped into this huge category of all sex workers, voluntary or not, and strippers are being lumped into the prostitution category because of selling "sex acts", yeah a lap dance is a sex act for sale so we're all hookers i guess, even if we do air dances.
Basic supply and demand dictates sex workers will always be in demand, but I'm sure many strippers feel infinitely more comfortable working at a club with bouncers, cameras, possibly metal detectors etc than doing private parties and going other routes where less protection is at their disposal. Clubs should stay open if they are making ends meet because the economy is shit and it's a great contracting job!
Half of these hating females couldn't make a dime as sex workers and need to stop jeopardizing our source of income when they should support women who are financially independent and thriving.
Stripping doesn't last forever thanks to aging, but it's great preparation for sales, marketing/advertising or becoming a therapist (after paying for your phd with stripping money of course)
threlayer
07-29-2011, 12:45 PM
A lot of the objectification is on the hands of law enforcement. Many of them are so hateful of women and so ready to stereotype that they believe all of you are whores. While there may be one or two in most clubs, there are probably a lot more corrupt cops in every precinct.
velvet
07-29-2011, 10:36 PM
Above, Cyrano mentions the "real men" campaign, Asthon Kutcher etc. I absolutely agree, a lot of amateur activists, and even self-proclaimed "experts" on sex work are making TONS of noise, gaining LOTS of traction and worth worrying about. I hear about new and pending legislation constantly, and underaged trafficking victims are being lumped into this huge category of all sex workers, voluntary or not, and strippers are being lumped into the prostitution category because of selling "sex acts", yeah a lap dance is a sex act for sale so we're all hookers i guess, even if we do air dances.
Basic supply and demand dictates sex workers will always be in demand, but I'm sure many strippers feel infinitely more comfortable working at a club with bouncers, cameras, possibly metal detectors etc than doing private parties and going other routes where less protection is at their disposal. Clubs should stay open if they are making ends meet because the economy is shit and it's a great contracting job!
Half of these hating females couldn't make a dime as sex workers and need to stop jeopardizing our source of income when they should support women who are financially independent and thriving.
Stripping doesn't last forever thanks to aging, but it's great preparation for sales, marketing/advertising or becoming a therapist (after paying for your phd with stripping money of course)
Nice post, thank you.
Otoki
08-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Ooooooookay. I'm going to skip past all the "feminazi" horseshit because it is WAY too depressing to read a bunch of women posting about how feminists are assholes. Generalizations are fun and productive!
ANYWAY, OP, when I told my mom what I do for a living, one of the reasons she was upset was because she felt that it goes against feminism. I pointed out that as women from two different generations we also grew up with different waves of feminism. 2nd wave feminism was coming from a place and time in which women were blatantly denied equal rights in both practice and law. 3rd wave feminism is coming from a place where the extremely important work of 2nd wavers has made our country, at least, a much more egalitarian place than it was before. We still have a lot of work to do (this country's rape culture is definitely a high priority for many 3rd and 2nd wavers) but most 3rd wavers have a more positive attitude towards sex and sex work than many 2nd wavers do, because 2nd wavers were operating from a time when marital rape was legal (for example).
I explained to my mother that I got sexually harassed when I worked at B&N, and that made me uncomfortable because I could not respond with snark or anger, just politely call a manager if it got really hardcore. I got sexually harassed on the street by men who thought that it was their right to hit on me and be rude just because I was walking in public and have a vagina. This was unwanted, UNINVITED sexual attention, and it was happening against my will and making me feel like a victim. Stripping, on the other hand, is sexual attention that the stripper invites and CONTROLS. If a customer tries to give me attention I don't want, I tell them off or can even have them removed from the premises. SC's give customers a safe place to give women they don't have any RL relationship with sexual attention, receive sexual attention from said women, and then go back into the real world where they need to respect more strict boundaries. In a SC, I know that my chances of getting assaulted by some strange man are a lot slimmer than if I'm walking down the street because if a customer grabs me, the bouncers are going to open the door with their face as they are escorted out of the club. The SC is a safe space for both the stripper and the customer to get what they want: sexual attention from a beautiful woman for the customer, a large amount of money and sexual control for the stripper.
My mom still doesn't completely get where I'm coming from, but I think she understands that I was getting this attention, often unwanted, for free in my daily life, and I decided that I wanted to capitalize on it and have more control over it. That improves my life financially and emotionally. I also find stripping far less degrading as a worker than I found working for a pittance at a "straight" job.
There is absolutely degrading aspects of the sex industry (as there is in any industry), and I think that the unregulated nature of it is a big cause of that. I think if all clubs were under stricter laws and enforced said laws and rules, SC's would be much less exploitative as a whole because it would force clubs that are looking the other way on their dancer's safety to suddenly have to give a shit. That is, of course, in an ideal world.
Anyway my argument about the degradation of sex work is the same argument I have across the board: whether stripping or prostitution or anything else, if you have strong anti-pimping laws on the books and in practice, workers are legal and have rights, can go to the police if their rights are violated, and are recognized by society as legitimate workers, the job would be a lot less degrading. As it stands now, because clubs are getting away with being dirty and taking advantage of dancers many dancers ARE exploited and degraded, while some of us manage to find clubs that treat us with respect and follow the law so we don't face the same dangers as our fellow strippers in less ethical clubs.
Otoki
08-02-2011, 04:55 PM
I wanted to add that publications like BITCH, $PREAD, and a myriad of feminist blogs are pro-sex-worker. Bringing some of those as references may do a lot to sway the anti-sex-worker feminists.
Sex work is definitely a contentious issue in many groups, and feminism is definitely becoming more and more pro-sex worker and sex-positive every day.
Look at the Slutwalks (started in Toronto in response to an asshole cop's comments), where people march against the concept that rape is the victim's fault, rather than the rapists. The accompanying Slut Project, which features women wearing clothing similar to what they were raped or harassed in.
Look at the "Sex Workers are People Too" campaign, also started in Canada.
The Sex Worker's Outreach Program is amazing, and very staunchly feminist and pro-sex-worker. They don't encourage staying in sex work or getting out of it, they encourage that the sex workers do what's best for them as INDIVIDUALS, and give them whatever resources they can that may be helpful for those choices.
tampadancer, I'm glad you spoke up in your class about being a stripper. I did that in a couple classes where it came up and it's amazing how quickly some people who were so anti-sex work suddenly were asking QUESTIONS instead of stating opinions as fact. It's harder to generalize about people when you're face to face with them:)
SupaByoch
08-06-2011, 06:08 PM
Am I the only woman on the planet who judges men by their fuckability?? Call me crazy but I just don't see the problem with people seeing each other as potential sex objects. That is hard-wired into us all because we are animals who need to breed, and sexuality is just part of that. I simply do not believe people who claim not to view / judge others based in some way on sex appeal.
Really, what is so horrible about natural sexual desire?? I think trying too much to make people not view each other sexually is just as unhealthy as the opposite.
fantasyarchitect
08-06-2011, 11:51 PM
I had to make an account just to comment on this thread.
I am 22, a self-avowed third-waver, as well as an exotic dancer. Although people in the club make jokes about "feminist stripper" being an oxymoron, it's far from it.
You're really asking "How does a sex-positive feminist convince a sex-negative feminist of her point of view?" or "How does a third-waver explain it to the second wave?"
It's a generational difference, and those are the hardest to overcome. Perhaps it would be best to divorce it from pornography and emphasize that, although many people sexualize the job, some strippers (like me) consider it to be something closer to performance art, like Cirque du Soleil's celebration of the human form.
Men do not rent me, they rent 3 minutes of my performance time. I give away nothing: rather, I sell them a fantasy.
Otoki
08-07-2011, 06:52 AM
I had to make an account just to comment on this thread.
I am 22, a self-avowed third-waver, as well as an exotic dancer. Although people in the club make jokes about "feminist stripper" being an oxymoron, it's far from it.
You're really asking "How does a sex-positive feminist convince a sex-negative feminist of her point of view?" or "How does a third-waver explain it to the second wave?"
It's a generational difference, and those are the hardest to overcome. Perhaps it would be best to divorce it from pornography and emphasize that, although many people sexualize the job, some strippers (like me) consider it to be something closer to performance art, like Cirque du Soleil's celebration of the human form.
Men do not rent me, they rent 3 minutes of my performance time. I give away nothing: rather, I sell them a fantasy.
Fantastic point. I think it's important to emphasize that there may be a difference in how SOME customers see the transaction vs how some dancers see it, and that a customer having a non-feminist or even misogynistic attitude doesn't negate the agency of the individual choosing to strip. That's the biggest difference between 2nd and 3rd wave IMO when it comes to sex work: 2nd wave sees sex work as inherently oppressive, and 3rd wave sees sex workers as individuals WITH AGENCY, thus making the oppressive/degrading/empowering debate more of an individual-basis issue rather than something which can be generalized. Same with stay at home parents, stay-at home spouses, etc. While BACK THEN it may have been something women did due to social pressure and against their will, NOW many men and women stay at home because they have the CHOICE. While there are definitely still women doing things due to pressure to be "traditional" and similar horseshit, there are also women who are doing those things because they WANT to, and still consider themselves equal partners.
3rd wavers make the distinction between doing a certain type of work in an industry that, by its nature or structure, is open for a lot of degradation or oppression, and the MOTIVATIONS and happiness of the individual worker in said industry.
Feminism is about women being equal and PEOPLE. I think 3rd wave continues on the "equal" issue but is focusing more on gaining equality through acknowledging individual agency.
mistresscyn
08-12-2011, 11:51 PM
Can't disagree with anything you posted. You know, you bring up the idea how many men think of women as sex objects and that is a problem everywhere. Right now I am doing online dating and easily 90% of the guys contact me because they think I am hot. Not all guys, but many value women by how attractive they are. Attractive people do have it easier in many respects. Add in the stereotypes about stripping and the guys think strippers are whores, so in other words many guys go to see hot girls they think are also easy. Of course not all are, but they don't know this.
This is why for the longest time before just flat out looking to date sugar daddies that I had the longest, most conveluted personal's ad. Because if I got a response that consisted of "Hi," "Hey Baby," or "You're Hot." I knew I could just delete them because they only looked at the photos, and never actually read my profile--the stuff that matters the most.
Well, I can tell you as an average-looking GUY, women aren't that interested in getting to know me, or discovering if I am funny, or how well I dress or dance or if I am an easy lay. They just ignore me all together. Is that reverse sexism? Am I also largely evaluated on my looks and how I can please a woman?
Women LOVE to play the victim, but I have found that if they have the upper hand (especially good looking women with their own money) they can be complete (insert b-word here) and can be as mean and shallow as men reliably are. I think the only difference between men and women is women are less likely to be "players." Otherwise there is no moral high ground for either sex.
I have to agree with Kellydancer. I've known a lot of guys who whine about women only being interested in looks, and it isn't because of that, it's because they have lofty ideal of their perfect partner and they're ideals are all physically based.
I can't count how many times I had guys who were obviously outside of what I even SPECIFIED that I was looking for, contact me, and get upset when I wasn't interested. Oddly, most of what I was looking for was intellectual, personality, or interest based. I'm NOT attracted to the athletic type at all.
I explained to my mother that I got sexually harassed when I worked at B&N, and that made me uncomfortable because I could not respond with snark or anger, just politely call a manager if it got really hardcore. I got sexually harassed on the street by men who thought that it was their right to hit on me and be rude just because I was walking in public and have a vagina. This was unwanted, UNINVITED sexual attention, and it was happening against my will and making me feel like a victim. Stripping, on the other hand, is sexual attention that the stripper invites and CONTROLS. If a customer tries to give me attention I don't want, I tell them off or can even have them removed from the premises. SC's give customers a safe place to give women they don't have any RL relationship with sexual attention, receive sexual attention from said women, and then go back into the real world where they need to respect more strict boundaries. In a SC, I know that my chances of getting assaulted by some strange man are a lot slimmer than if I'm walking down the street because if a customer grabs me, the bouncers are going to open the door with their face as they are escorted out of the club. The SC is a safe space for both the stripper and the customer to get what they want: sexual attention from a beautiful woman for the customer, a large amount of money and sexual control for the stripper.
Exactly! As someone who's a 3rd wave, pro-sex feminist, if I would've had the balls when I first found out about pro-Domming to go into it, my life would've been considerably better for it. I wouldn't have wasted my time with unfulfilling dead-end retail industry jobs where I was under appreciated and under paid.
I did learn a lot from those jobs, and now have 4 impressive resumes, but now that I'm in the pro-Domme field, I wouldn't give it up for anything.
I wanted to add that publications like BITCH, $PREAD, and a myriad of feminist blogs are pro-sex-worker. Bringing some of those as references may do a lot to sway the anti-sex-worker feminists.
Sex work is definitely a contentious issue in many groups, and feminism is definitely becoming more and more pro-sex worker and sex-positive every day.
'The Vagina Monologues' are unbelievably pro-sex and feminist. I really wish I'd have seen it before 'V to the Tenth' was held here a few years ago.
Kellydancer
08-17-2011, 01:09 PM
This is why for the longest time before just flat out looking to date sugar daddies that I had the longest, most conveluted personal's ad. Because if I got a response that consisted of "Hi," "Hey Baby," or "You're Hot." I knew I could just delete them because they only looked at the photos, and never actually read my profile--the stuff that matters the most.
I have to agree with Kellydancer. I've known a lot of guys who whine about women only being interested in looks, and it isn't because of that, it's because they have lofty ideal of their perfect partner and they're ideals are all physically based.
I can't count how many times I had guys who were obviously outside of what I even SPECIFIED that I was looking for, contact me, and get upset when I wasn't interested. Oddly, most of what I was looking for was intellectual, personality, or interest based. I'm NOT attracted to the athletic type at all.
Yes! I am happy to know I am not alone with this problem. When doing online I would literally get hundreds of responses but easily 90% were of the "you're hot" variety. Very few would actually send me a thought out profile mentioning the things we had in common. Most of the guys would be what I was NOT looking for (and I was clear in my profile)yet still responded. None of the things I specified in my profile were look based except the not being obese requirement. The things I specifically mentioned in my profile was I was looking for a never married (or possibly widowed or annulled)man without kids who was Christian (possibly Catholic)and not obese. Pretty simple and to the point. The one point I stressed very strongly was I was not open to dating a man with kids who had been divorced or never married (unless he adopted as a single man or raising kids not his own). I mentioned this three times yet the majority of the men who responded were divorced or never married dads. This to me said the guys weren't even reading my profile because I said there were no exceptions to this including adult kids. I even listed why I don't date these guys but they still responded. One of them got nasty and when I told him I don't date these guys he said he doesn't date moms because of the drama. Yet you expect me to date you with drama? Why is my preference wrong but yours is fine?
I'll read the ads of men and yes most are very picky look wise. Oddly, I rarely see them list values and morals unless they are looking to get married then they tend to list all of the above. I laugh at the look requirements because they are bizarre. Many are looking for much younger women though they are in their 40's. Others state "no fatties" though they are fat. Many are below average look wise but want hotties. Then many of these guys stay single and complain there are no good woman. There are good women but they are above their league (yes there is a thing called league guys). Just because someone wants a look doesn't mean theyll get it. I saw a profile of an ex and his profile list himself as 'average weight'. No, 5'8 and 350 pounds is not average weight, it's makes you a fattie.
So yeah I definitely think men are way more picky than they should be. I would never reject a "nice guy" but very few really are.
mistresscyn
08-18-2011, 11:32 AM
Yes! I am happy to know I am not alone with this problem. When doing online I would literally get hundreds of responses but easily 90% were of the "you're hot" variety. Very few would actually send me a thought out profile mentioning the things we had in common. Most of the guys would be what I was NOT looking for (and I was clear in my profile)yet still responded. None of the things I specified in my profile were look based except the not being obese requirement. The things I specifically mentioned in my profile was I was looking for a never married (or possibly widowed or annulled)man without kids who was Christian (possibly Catholic)and not obese. Pretty simple and to the point. The one point I stressed very strongly was I was not open to dating a man with kids who had been divorced or never married (unless he adopted as a single man or raising kids not his own). I mentioned this three times yet the majority of the men who responded were divorced or never married dads. This to me said the guys weren't even reading my profile because I said there were no exceptions to this including adult kids. I even listed why I don't date these guys but they still responded. One of them got nasty and when I told him I don't date these guys he said he doesn't date moms because of the drama. Yet you expect me to date you with drama? Why is my preference wrong but yours is fine?
I'll read the ads of men and yes most are very picky look wise. Oddly, I rarely see them list values and morals unless they are looking to get married then they tend to list all of the above. I laugh at the look requirements because they are bizarre. Many are looking for much younger women though they are in their 40's. Others state "no fatties" though they are fat. Many are below average look wise but want hotties. Then many of these guys stay single and complain there are no good woman. There are good women but they are above their league (yes there is a thing called league guys). Just because someone wants a look doesn't mean theyll get it. I saw a profile of an ex and his profile list himself as 'average weight'. No, 5'8 and 350 pounds is not average weight, it's makes you a fattie.
So yeah I definitely think men are way more picky than they should be. I would never reject a "nice guy" but very few really are.
I actually don't specify that I'm not interested in dating Dads or men with kids, though I am not interested in either. I find that most of these guys, by the time they read my profile, move on.
In direct opposition to my photos (which I post my professional ones), I open with a line that basically explains that I'm "short and chubby" because I've had too many men (and photographers) in the past that didn't understand that just because I photograph well, doesn't mean I'm not round. LOL
I go on to state that I'm a nerd girl who's deeply in love with Disney and most things related to the Horror genre. I then have a LONG list of things that I'm looking for in a guy, but they more generalities than actual mandates with the exception of the first few which include things like non-married, no drugs, religiously open-minded, etc.
So I either get guys that are completely "dead on," or I get guys that never read my profile at all. With more of the latter occurring more often. I actually hate IM systems on a lot of these dating sites because the minute I login to read a response or tweek my profile/add a new pic, I start getting inundated with messages, it's really annoying.
Kellydancer
08-20-2011, 01:05 PM
Unfortunately the guys I get don't even read my profile. I state three times I will not date dads but they still contact me. I hate getting my photo taken except when modeling so I don't have a lot of real photos. I am also self conscious and think I look terrible in all the photos except my professional ones. Of course then the guys think I normally look that way. I too am a nerd and put that I play video games and get a lot of obese basement dwellers because of that. By Disney what are you into? I collect the movies. Once I listed several tv shows I like and got a few guys telling me I was too "lame" for them so I removed this.
I hate those IM systems. I have a free membership on several sites that have IM. I can't send messages but can get IMs if online and when I lurk I am bombarded. I do not have my photo on these sites but still get many IMs. The strangest are the divorced dads on the Catholic sites, which explictly state they can't use it for dating, so what are they doing there? When I had a subscription to Match the dads IMed me often and I felt bad rejecting them but didn't want to lead them on.
Seatortuga
08-24-2011, 10:56 PM
I would be sure to point out the economic repercussions of closing a strip club. A mid-sized club employs, say, 50 dancers, 5 floor men, 3 managers, 3 bartenders, 3, barbacks, a house Mom, and 3 people to work the door. They also may have people who come in to sell clothing/do hair,make-up etc.
The larger the clubs, or in your case where they want every club in town closed, the number of people, I.E. men and women! who will be out of a job is going to add up substantially.
When they have gone as far as to have community meetings to try to have these places closed, you can be pretty well certain arguingthe typical reasons for choosing stripping (money for college,travel, being your own boss) will only go around in circles with these folks. Reminding them that they will be knocking 100+ people out of job will catch their attention.
Kalypso
09-17-2011, 04:19 AM
Ooh this is a good thread!! I wish I had been present from the beginning but that's here nor there. I'll say my piece anyhow.
ITA that shutting down SC's is not only pointless but backwards.It only encourages victim blaming even further. Whenever you try to solve these issues by discouraging the VICTIM'S behavior it will always fail, even with good intentions.
FeministStripper
09-29-2011, 02:03 PM
Dang. Sorry I missed this earlier. I haven't even finished reading the whole thread yet and I've been typing for half an hour. :D
As you can see, this is right up my alley. Here's what I've got so far:
It's the argument of many anti-porn feminists that the industry demeans and dehumanizes women. I'd like to ask them a few questions.
First, what is it about my sexuality that obscures the view of my personhood? Why do we leap to the conclusion that every man who thinks about fucking us also holds our humanity in contempt? Why do we assume that basking in my incredibly potent feminine sexuality – even when money changes hands – means disregarding my competence, my sovereignty, my dignity? That's a HUGE, Evel-Knievel-style leap of logic which goes sailing right over a whole set of notions and concepts, encompassing them into a belief system as givens without any real examination. The notion that looking at my body turns me into an object is not only absurd, but insulting. It's time to move beyond this remedial victim mentality and stop handing over power that way. Why on earth should an erection define me? Sometimes a penis is just a penis, not the sceptre of dominant culture. Men are human beings, too, not just patriarchal protuberances.
Long after the patriarchy has crumbled, men are still going to be transfixed by the sight of a sexy woman and compelled to bring her something that might catch her attention. There will still be people who wish to have sexual interaction outside traditional pair-bonds, or even outside personal relationships of any kind. There will still be people who offer sex as a service. Those actions are neither good nor bad; they simply are, and will continue to be long after the power struggle has ceased. We will keep fucking them and marrying them and living with them and having their children and working alongside them, in all the possible configurations of those dynamics – because they're always going to be our partners, even when they're not our oppressors or our political opponents. The constant struggle for understanding will continue, but on even ground and equal footing.
Secondly, how is it not demeaning to be marginalized, infantilized, ostracized by our 'sisters' who tell men not to trust our judgment when we claim the right to make our own decisions and slyly imply that we've invited whatever abuse we receive? Why do they listen to the women who whine about being victimized by this industry instead of taking responsibility for their own bad choices, but dismiss the women who benefit and profit from our time in the business and come out the better for it? Why do we understand the importance of reproductive sovereignty, but remain oblivious to how that connects to all the OTHER choices we make about our bodies and sexuality? How does it benefit all women to silence the voices of some?
Everyone knows that there are aspects of the industry that are demeaning to women.
Is it not true that in almost every way possible, corporate life is demeaning to the average worker? Your employer will exploit you any way they can; it's the American Way. I posit that it's more prevalent in the sex biz not because it's intrinsic to the mentality, but because we are exempted by those outside the industry from the protections and recourse extended to other workers.
I offer, too, that mainstream media demeans and defiles women much more.
the best argument a dancer has in defense of her right to strip without interference is "until objectification of all women ceases, i am going to get paid for it." it is not a solution to patriarchy, but it forces well-minded feminists to remember the real issue at hand, horizontal hostility aside.
I disagree. The deeper discussion strikes at the heart of what it is to objectify and why we believe - and more importantly ACCEPT - that some intrinsic aspect of ourselves, our nature, has the capacity to achieve that through its 'misuse'. I simply cannot reconcile the concept of feminism - especially radical feminism - to this passive acceptance of the status quo: (in an Eeyore voice:) "...We're never going to get them to see our humanity past our sex, so we'll just have to hide it if we're going to get anywhere..."
i qualify as a radical feminist and i am so oh so so so tempted to recite some of my favorite dworkin quotes.
Oh, god, please, no. Not MacDworkinism, not here. It makes so very little sense. Outdated, illogical, full of sexual self-hatred and terror.
i'm confused as to what is being argued here. what the FUCK does sex work have to do with free speech? the right to sell ass, the right to bodily autonomy doesn't have shit to do with newspapers publishing advertisements.
Well... I think the right to bodily autonomy is directly connected to other forms of expression. Sexual speech (read: all forms of expression) is no different than other speech, except that we still continually seek to suppress it based on the notion that it MIGHT cause harmful ideation or aggressive behavior in dangerous people - though no real statistical correlation exists to prove such a connection.
We can grasp the concept that in order for speech to be truly free, people like Fred Phelps can continue to say horrible things about gay kids and soldiers, but somehow we still don't think that applies to what people (especially women) do and view, alone or with willing partners.
In every society that practices sexual censorship, the patriarchal machine inevitably (and quickly) turns that censorship - which is ostensibly there to PROTECT women - against them, silencing feminist art, birth control information, advocacy, activism and sexual choice. It. Never. Works. In. Our. Favor.
Ever.
censorship regarding the sex industry is virtually non-existent.
Really? Because the last time I checked, obscenity laws were still in place, prostitution was still illegal, pornographers can still be prosecuted, certain material can't pass through the mail...
Ask the owners of countless erotic or gay bookstores in Canada who have gone under due to the new obscenity laws – crafted by none other than Dworkin and MacKinnon themselves. Now ask MacKinnon (Dworkin passed away in 2005) how many times those same laws have been used to suppress feminist and LGBT activist art containing nudity or sexual subject matter.
More ironic than that, even: Dworkin's own books have been seized at the Canadian border because of her detailed descriptions of rape and incest as the result of pornography and patriarchal oppression. And yet...:blindfold
i would like to see sex workers more up and arms about the right to live in a world without fear of violence and rape.
Me too. In my world that means severing the connection between sexual behavior (including display for profit) as a means by which we are made unworthy, undeserving, and implicitly unprotected. It means abolishing the idea that women must earn equality through 'good' behavior. It means understanding that our attitudes toward openly, even mercenarily sexual women is really part of the big picture about what's available to ALL women - and realizing that we've overlooked this enormous chink in our armor out of sexual fear and shame - and worse, a desire to separate ourselves from our sisters who make unpopular choices before Daddy sees us together and punishes us all.
FeministStripper
09-29-2011, 10:04 PM
I had to come back to this.
i would like to see sex workers more up and arms about the right to live in a world without fear of violence and rape.
That's interesting; I see a LOT of sex workers up in arms about that very thing, actually. So, I'd like to ask, Camille - what are you driving at with that statement? Are you implying that strippers and other sex workers are too busy focusing on our own work issues to pay attention to things like violence and rape, or that our profession, our behavior, is actually part of the problem?
I'd like to point out that we don't live in a world without fear of murder or robbery, either. Those things are simply the ugly part of human nature. Humans harm each other; that's not going to change. We don't hold anti-robbery marches because we understand that telling the world that it isn't a nice thing to do and that it upsets us isn't going to have much of an impact on potential burglars. They already know that we're nice people, real human beings who are fond of our possessions and would like to keep them; they don't care.
If you genuinely believe that righting the uneven power balance between the genders is somehow going to make it so that we relate to each other perfectly and never experience strife, I don't know what to tell you. Men are already all equal (unless you count wealth, race and social class), but they keep doing harm to each other, don't they? What we can hope for is a world in which we all have equal access to recourse in the aftermath of such crimes.
FeministStripper
09-30-2011, 07:03 PM
If, however, you were able to wave a magic wand and turn everyone in the world into a feminist, you would find that sports bars, advertising companies, and even religions would be able to survive. They would need to make huge changes to adapt, but they could still be there. Strip clubs, though - they would be gone.
Strip clubs naturally disappearing in a feminist utopia, though, is very different from strip clubs being forced to disappear in a world where they are still very much wanted. Feminists should work on making changes that will reduce women's need to work in strip clubs and men's desire to frequent them. As long as getting naked remains the best option for many women to get ahead, and as long as men still want to go get pleased and entertained by fantasy women, there will exist a strip club-like industry.
I loved your post, but I can't get behind this, for the simple reason that it still paints the industry as exploitative and only entered into out of need and indulged in out of a desire to oppress. Some people just LIKE erotic entertainment, and I don't think that's going to 'naturally' change, even in a feminist utopia - because that theoretical utopia itself is not natural; it isn't the way the world would actually be if the movement were to render itself obsolete, as it ultimately should.
Instead I believe the industry would evolve and change, just as the rest of our culture would. The unequal power dynamic didn't CREATE the industry; it simply manifests itself there as it does everywhere else. When not perceived through the filter of patriarchal oppression, it's clearly the woman who holds the upper hand in an act of erotic commerce.
The compelling nature of sexuality is natural, not political; it's so potent, though, that it BECOMES a very effective tool. When another intention is attached to it, it gains potency and velocity; wars, they say, have been fought over it. Long after this gender-war is over, sex will still be sex. People will still beg for it, take it by force, kill for it, die for it - and pay for it.
ManyRoses
10-01-2011, 06:45 PM
WOW! Brief moments of name-calling aside, this is a great thread! (Must remember to pop my head outta camming connection a little more often!)
To the OP, there are a few different arguments that I like to bring up when addressing the feminist/sex worker paradigm. I'll try to state these as clearly as possible, but I apologize if I start to rant a little and lose track of my thoughts - this is a pretty emotionally loaded subject!!
That said...
- The only times that I personally have really felt degraded working in this industry are the times that other women, and usually self-described feminists, have attacked me for my choice of work. This can be anything from a female actively arguing that my job degrades me and I shouldn't do it, to women who do not want me to mention to parents what I do, to female landlords who do not want to rent to me. The most degrading thing about the job is therefore being made to feel like a second-class citizen because of the job - its a vicious circle. The only way I can see to break it, is to educate women about the job, and to change the perception of it so that it can be seen in the same way as any other job - appropriate and rewarding for some people, not for others.
- I find the concept that my body is NOT worth money to be degrading. My body is a part of me, and due to the fact that I am able to shape and alter it through training and practice makes it a skill, of sorts. It may not take skill to simply possess a body, but to shape and control it to the level that most dancers do is definitely a skill. This is a uniquely female skill, and women should be able to profit off it. When I think - I have a great body that I work hard to maintain (not just shape but also control, movement and flexibility) and I love working with it, it is insulting to be told that my body is worthless. That my skill and achievement is not deserving of reward. I would like to point out that burlesque is ever popular as an "empowering" activity, as are "tasteful" nude and pin up shoots, but not sex work. The idea here seems to be that it is ok to take pride in one's body, but only for free. I'll re-state that as this: Women should be sexy. Sexy women are "empowering". However, women should not be paid for this. This can be further simplified. Women SHOULD be sexy, therefore, they SHOULDN"T be paid for it.
- The assumption that seeing a stripper will make all men viewing her immediately view all women in their life as sexual objects is reductionist and pretty insulting to men! We "objectify" all people in the service industry to an extent, and this isn't a bad thing. When I am being served in a restaurant, I am basically considering the server as a server, and only a server. I am "objectifying" her/him into a serving role. But I don't leave the restaurant and start treating everyone in my life as though the are serving me. Intelligent, normal guys do not leave a strip club and start treating all women like strippers. They just dont.
Conclusion? I am worth money. My body is worth money. IF I choose to cash in that worth, no one should be able to stop me, or put me down for it. And no one should be able to put down the men I deal with and assume that they are so stupid and inept to be unable to differentiate between a stripper and a date.
Hope that made sense!!