View Full Version : The Streamate Thread
Bootsie
10-28-2015, 11:04 PM
There are 2 things that really bug me about the SM Halloween contest (sorry if this has already been covered):
1. They haven't told members. I asked a few guys if they had received any Halloween-related promo stuff from SM, even just saying that girls are encouraged to dress up etc. Not a peep.
2. I love how they suggest we tweet about it, even though we are forbidden from telling our SM custies to follow us on twitter.
Pretty sure they are expecting us to drive all of our own traffic for this super fun and exciting contest. For 35% that seems like an awful lot of fucking work. If I could drive traffic like that, I would send it to my fucking indy listings!
LittleSexBunny
10-29-2015, 12:53 AM
halloween contest is fun i think... except ladies will be there all day so i have no fucking chance lol. I have to be a mother first and do the trick or treat thing with my kiddos. I'll swing by after they're in bed... but they're going to stay up and eat candy. So good luck to me with 2 hours of achieving any sort of bonus. lol. Maybe sm should offer a monthly bonus for top earners?? Similar to mfc ya know. Just my suggestion! I'd come online a lotttt more ;)
amanda121
10-29-2015, 05:35 AM
Is there an easy way to check if a certain member ever did a paid show/ tipped me? Going through all the earnings history is too time consuming... Thx.
kortneykay
10-29-2015, 09:30 AM
I wanted to add that I don't think hours online have all that great a bearing on placement. I just now started putting in more hours after being on SM for almost 3 years working like 10-19 hours a month. I've been on page 1 for 99% of those 3 years and top rows or 1st in all of my categories whenever I stream. However, when I put in more hours and my hourly crashes- I make less money but I'm still in the same positions in my categories. :/ I've only risen in placement on the front page but I was still only averaging like $35-45 per hour and this week it's like $16 lol.
scarlettbelle
10-29-2015, 09:35 AM
@amanda121 There are a couple of ways. But the only way you can 100% verify that this person has paid you is to ban them from messages, and then look them up in your ban list. You can see their purchase history from there. I've *begged* SM to make this process easier. I waste so much time hunting through my ban list to verify people (because the ban list is super glitchy, takes forever to load, doesn't have people listed in the correct order...makes me want to rip my hair out). There should be a direct link to their profile inside every message, JUST like on the ban list/earnings list. It would make it so much easier to see if/when they've paid, access the notes you've taken about them, etc etc.
IvyAdams
10-29-2015, 09:39 AM
@amanda121 There are a couple of ways. But the only way you can 100% verify that this person has paid you is to ban them from messages, and then look them up in your ban list. You can see their purchase history from there. I've *begged* SM to make this process easier. I waste so much time hunting through my ban list to verify people (because the ban list is super glitchy, takes forever to load, doesn't have people listed in the correct order...makes me want to rip my hair out). There should be a direct link to their profile inside every message, JUST like on the ban list/earnings list. It would make it so much easier to see if/when they've paid, access the notes you've taken about them, etc etc.
YESSSSS. Especially when I'm verifying what they pledged in for a GS to get vids, etc. I have dreams about a direct profile link in messages.
kortneykay
10-29-2015, 10:45 AM
@amanda121 There are a couple of ways. But the only way you can 100% verify that this person has paid you is to ban them from messages, and then look them up in your ban list. You can see their purchase history from there. I've *begged* SM to make this process easier. I waste so much time hunting through my ban list to verify people (because the ban list is super glitchy, takes forever to load, doesn't have people listed in the correct order...makes me want to rip my hair out). There should be a direct link to their profile inside every message, JUST like on the ban list/earnings list. It would make it so much easier to see if/when they've paid, access the notes you've taken about them, etc etc.
And they also need to add an option to ban guys once they leave the room. That would make our lives so much easier! If all names were clickable with a direct link we could ban those fuckers well after they've popped out of our rooms, lol.
Chellyinparadise
10-29-2015, 10:48 AM
And they also need to add an option to ban guys once they leave the room. That would make our lives so much easier! If all names were clickable with a direct link we could ban those fuckers well after they've popped out of our rooms, lol.
I agree that would be an awesome idea esp for the ones who keep coming in and out and being abusive while we are trying to work. Would eliminate us having to deal with those people and eliminate messages to support asking to ban them because we couldnt catch them in time to ban.
Bootsie
10-29-2015, 10:49 AM
And they also need to add an option to ban guys once they leave the room. That would make our lives so much easier! If all names were clickable with a direct link we could ban those fuckers well after they've popped out of our rooms, lol.
If they could make guys have unique user names I would die happy. Know how many "John"s I have? SEVEN. I have notes on all of them to keep them separate because one is SPH, one is taboo, one is feet...it's a fucking nightmare. When one of them changed his damn name I nearly had a breakdown. Trolls also use stuff like "Chris" so when they come back in you won't ban on sight because which Chris are they? UUUUUUGH.
^^^ Yes for the unique names & all the things mentioned above, i dont know any other site to allow members's name change but SM!
I dont know why these people at SM dont think better & deeper about these 'small' details that for us mean GOLD, it's like they work on the big things but forget about the 'small little things' that matter actually. Hellloooo SM?! You there?! You act like a megalomaniac u know?! Seriously.
kortneykay
10-29-2015, 12:51 PM
Costume Contest Update Rules! WHEW!
Check your Emails!
This is your reminder that the Streamate Costume Contest is taking place soon. We also have an important clarification below about voting!
The contest will run during October 31st (GMT). It will begin at 12:01AM GMT and end at 11:59PM GMT. Remember to check when Oct 31st GMT will begin in your time zone! For models in the Americas, this will be sometime in the evening of the 30th. In Europe and Asia, the contest will start sometime in the morning of the 31st.
One hundred performers will be awarded for having fun and dressing up. To be eligible for a prize, you will need to:
1. Update your biopic with a spooky or festive image. Take a pic and upload it soon to make sure it's approved before the contest begins.
2. Be in costume while streaming on Oct 31st (GMT). Stay in one costume all day, or change costumes as often as you like!
Members will vote with their Gold; 1 Gold = 1 vote! When a member gives you gold in free chat or during a private show, it counts as a vote! For this contest, Gold Show pledges and Gold given during Gold Shows DO NOT count as votes. You will be able to see the difference in your earnings. Earnings that say “Gold” count!” Earnings that say “Gold Show” do not count. See this image for an example.
The 100 participants who get the highest amount of successfully billed Gold that day will receive a prize:
1st place: $1000
2nd place: $800
3rd place: $600
4th place: $400
5th place: $200
6-20th place: $100
21-100th place: $50
Twitter Promotion
Do you have a twitter account? Tweet a picture of your costume during the contest and tag it #smhalloween. We’ll retweet them throughout the day!
Important Reminder about Costumes
Halloween can be a great time to appeal to viewers' fantasies, but don't forget about the Streamate Code of Conduct. Feel free to dress as a vampire, zombie, or schoolgirl, but remember that blood play, necrophilia, and age play are not allowed. If members ask for any fantasies that violate the Code of Conduct, you should decline and remind them that it’s just a Halloween costume! Performers found violating any part of the Code of Conduct will be disqualified from the contest. Let us know if you need clarifications for specific costumes or topics.
The winners will be notified during the first week of November. Good luck to everyone who participates!
Streamate Models Support
scarlettbelle
10-29-2015, 02:58 PM
And they also need to add an option to ban guys once they leave the room. That would make our lives so much easier! If all names were clickable with a direct link we could ban those fuckers well after they've popped out of our rooms, lol.
1000X YES. If they would even make a way for us to ban from our earnings sheet it would be a HUGE improvement.
We need to message support, Liz, whoever about these things. I've written to general support this week about limiting members' ability to change their names + adding a profile link in their messages. I doubt they'll do anything about it right now, but nothing will change if we don't ask for it.
IvyAdams
10-29-2015, 03:03 PM
You know what else I wish they would add? An option to add a minute to the end of gold show timers. Sometimes I am sooo close to the start goal but there's no way to just add another 60 seconds, instead you have to completely re-start and potentially lose out on all the gold.
Chellyinparadise
10-29-2015, 04:09 PM
You know what else I wish they would add? An option to add a minute to the end of gold show timers. Sometimes I am sooo close to the start goal but there's no way to just add another 60 seconds, instead you have to completely re-start and potentially lose out on all the gold.
That would be so great! It is so true what you said because sometimes they wait till the very last second and then majority leave if you have to restart because they dont want to wait another timer out that would help tremendously. Great idea ivy.. now if they would only listen to us about changes that could make it better for us all.
Issabelle
10-29-2015, 05:16 PM
That glitch where customers send an exclusive request, model accepts, and customer never gets up in private? It's gone from happening like 10-20% of the time for me over the last month or two to happening on EVERY SINGLE SHOW but one in the last two days. And now hitting the break button on and off does nothing to fix it. My room is cleared of all customers when I accept the private, but the paid window never drops down or flashes, and my cammodels link (where I view my stream) still shows me in free chat the entire time. After about 30 seconds, people start repopulating the room.
I've reset my computer, cleared my cache/history, reset the encoder, checked internet, etc. Not me.
HELP!
P.S. I emailed Liz direct because support is notoriously useless. Seriously, just watched a good $100 go straight down the drain in 45 minutes. Not cool.
Kitcatt
10-29-2015, 05:26 PM
You're not the only one Issabelle, my twitter feed is now filled with models complaining that they can't go exclusive. Did you try hitting the break button on and off or is it just that you are immediately dumps back into free chat?
bigbootyjudy1
10-29-2015, 05:38 PM
My exclusive chat is not working.FUCK MY LIFE!!!
MissMoore
10-29-2015, 05:39 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous with the exclusive glitch. Instead of changing the layout of the site ( I appreciate that they made an effort to be festive and it looks cool IMO) they should have corrected the rampant issues/glitches performers are having. I've lost a atlas 75% thanks to this issue. Everytime some one took me exclusive I had to log off and back on. I don't even feel like trying to finish out the day.... I'm at a breaking point where I just might go ape shit.
pippapippa
10-29-2015, 06:24 PM
Streamate just posted not to upgrade to El Capitan... Um, too late. Anyone know what the problem is and how to fix it?
SabrinaThomas
10-29-2015, 06:28 PM
Costume Contest Update Rules! WHEW!
Check your Emails!
This is your reminder that the Streamate Costume Contest is taking place soon. We also have an important clarification below about voting!
The contest will run during October 31st (GMT). It will begin at 12:01AM GMT and end at 11:59PM GMT. Remember to check when Oct 31st GMT will begin in your time zone! For models in the Americas, this will be sometime in the evening of the 30th. In Europe and Asia, the contest will start sometime in the morning of the 31st.
One hundred performers will be awarded for having fun and dressing up. To be eligible for a prize, you will need to:
1. Update your biopic with a spooky or festive image. Take a pic and upload it soon to make sure it's approved before the contest begins.
2. Be in costume while streaming on Oct 31st (GMT). Stay in one costume all day, or change costumes as often as you like!
Members will vote with their Gold; 1 Gold = 1 vote! When a member gives you gold in free chat or during a private show, it counts as a vote! For this contest, Gold Show pledges and Gold given during Gold Shows DO NOT count as votes. You will be able to see the difference in your earnings. Earnings that say “Gold” count!” Earnings that say “Gold Show” do not count. See this image for an example.
The 100 participants who get the highest amount of successfully billed Gold that day will receive a prize:
1st place: $1000
2nd place: $800
3rd place: $600
4th place: $400
5th place: $200
6-20th place: $100
21-100th place: $50
Twitter Promotion
Do you have a twitter account? Tweet a picture of your costume during the contest and tag it #smhalloween. We’ll retweet them throughout the day!
Important Reminder about Costumes
Halloween can be a great time to appeal to viewers' fantasies, but don't forget about the Streamate Code of Conduct. Feel free to dress as a vampire, zombie, or schoolgirl, but remember that blood play, necrophilia, and age play are not allowed. If members ask for any fantasies that violate the Code of Conduct, you should decline and remind them that it’s just a Halloween costume! Performers found violating any part of the Code of Conduct will be disqualified from the contest. Let us know if you need clarifications for specific costumes or topics.
The winners will be notified during the first week of November. Good luck to everyone who participates!
Streamate Models Support
I thought that I had understood the rules for the contest after the Addendum on http://streamate.tumblr.com/post/131786985660/halloween-contestclarifications
1 - This e-mail today repeats the same idea: Earnings that say “Gold” count!” Earnings that say “Gold Show” do not count. See this image for an example http://streamatehelp.com/smhelp/uploads/2015/10/goldstat.png
2 - But then they say: For this contest (...) Gold given during Gold Shows DO NOT count as votes.
Ok. But all this Gold below on the image they gave to me during a Gold Show
43070
This pic from my earnings today is exactly like the one they show on the example image they sent on the e-mail today (also on Tublr) , as what DO COUNT as votes.
On the other hand, they were given to me during a Gold Show, which according to the same e-mail DO NOT count as votes.
On which part of todays's e-mail should I believe?
MissMoore
10-29-2015, 06:30 PM
Streamate just posted not to upgrade to El Capitan... Um, too late. Anyone know what the problem is and how to fix it?
Same boat.....
Wonder what the issue is with El Capitan since the exclusive glitch seems to affect windows users as well.
PumpkinSpicy
10-29-2015, 06:33 PM
On the other hand, they were given to me during a Gold Show, which according to the same e-mail DO NOT count as votes.
On which part of todays's e-mail should I believe?
I wish SM could get their shit together with this. Honestly, it strikes me as a marketing ploy to make SM more like the token sites. They want a lot of girls online at once, doing 0 buy-in GOLD shows to drive more freeloaders to the site and pique their interest.
The complete lack of continuity and clarity from SM's own support and marketing teams is making me strongly consider moving to MFC or CB.
kortneykay
10-29-2015, 07:24 PM
I got hit with the exclusive glitch tonight too but some guys were able to take me? One guy asked if the privates were working again yet. O.o that's sad when a porn horny guy is ready but can't even spend his hard earned money, lol. I told him I hadn't known, but to try it and sure enough I hit accept and nada. Good thing indy is going brilliant for me tonight.
scarlettbelle
10-29-2015, 08:59 PM
I had two glitches so far - first the time reminders didn't show up in a block session, and then I got stuck in the exclusive limbo thing. I tried the pause button "hack" when I got stuck in limbo but it didn't work. I think it's because I'm using the new broadcaster.
Overall it's been a great night though (especially compared to how it was earlier for me this week...oy vey). TONS of good traffic. I'm at 72% paid chat for the night and made $300 in less than 2 hours.
gingerstripper
10-29-2015, 11:17 PM
so glitchey!!!!!!
MistressX
10-30-2015, 02:09 AM
So who is doing the costume contest? What's your costume gonna be? Here's mine! It's actually not really a costume, its just how I would like to look all the time if it wouldn't scare the shit out of the customers (tried it lol).. But I'm going to wear fangs so it's a costume! I'm a scary vampire rawr!
Issabelle
10-30-2015, 04:21 AM
Yeah, the break button fix (hitting it on and off rapidly to get the private to connect, for those who don't know) for getting exclusive shows to connect was no longer working for me as of last night. I had one exclusive connect without an issue. My first exclusive didn't, my second did, and numbers three through seven were a repeat of the first shit show.
It's also not even that I'm immediately getting dumped back into free chat. I kept my cammodels link open to my stream on my second monitor and viewed it both with my customer account and while logged out of any account. My customer account got kicked out of the room when I accepted an exclusive (as did any other registered customer in my room, as usual when I hit accept on an exclusive), but I was immediately able to rejoin the room. When I wasn't logged into my customer account at all and accepted an exclusive, absolutely nothing happened. Stream continued on as normal without a single hitch.
So, the exclusive requests aren't even registering in the system. Epic.
I emailed Liz with a lot of details and trouble shoots I've tried. Half a dozen of my SM girlfriends are reporting this issue as well. Fucking bullshit. I could deal with this crap when the break button fix worked, but not when I have a customer try to go exclusive three damned times and fail without the system even trying to connect me to paid.
P.S. I have my exclusive rates set to half my premium rate because fucking peepers. So this is extra sucky for me, lol.
JessRyan
10-30-2015, 07:04 AM
^^^ Yes for the unique names & all the things mentioned above, i dont know any other site to allow members's name change but SM!
I dont know why these people at SM dont think better & deeper about these 'small' details that for us mean GOLD, it's like they work on the big things but forget about the 'small little things' that matter actually. Hellloooo SM?! You there?! You act like a megalomaniac u know?! Seriously.
There's never NEVER a good reason a guy wants to change his name. And the fact that SM allows members to do so, tells a lot. Whoever ALLOWS that option and is resistant to changing it (for US the models) must have a sneaky nature. Well, men in general have a sneaky nature...I just have a strange notion that whoever is in charge of certain things behind the scenes, doesn't have empathy towards the models. Something is lacking there in the mix of "support"
justanothercamgirl
10-30-2015, 08:39 AM
It all depending how many girls that they can get tweeting but really only having to pay 5K 'in prizes' for all that Twitter traffic will end up being a steal for them.
Issabelle
10-30-2015, 09:27 AM
Good news--exclusives are working (for me at least) as of two hours ago. Mostly. A guy will say he's gonna go private, then show as logging out, and normally an exclusive request should pop up immediately after he 'logs out' of paid chat. No pop up and the guy comes back and says he was told the request timed out or some such. After 1-2 tries though, the pop up came to me normally and immediately connected when I hit accept.
So it's sort of working. lol
gingerstripper
10-30-2015, 10:35 AM
so let me get this right.. if you participate in the halloween contest...
and you do gold shows you have to reach gold first before extra gold can be counted towards the contest?
kortneykay
10-30-2015, 10:42 AM
^^^ From what I gather, the GS gold is not going to be counted towards the contest what.so.ever. Gold towards the contest is going to be counted as a TIP only and will say "Gold count" and the Gold for Shows will say "Gold Show".
ShadyPinesMa
10-30-2015, 10:44 AM
so let me get this right.. if you participate in the halloween contest...
and you do gold shows you have to reach gold first before extra gold can be counted towards the contest?
Only gold tipped DURING the actual show, from people who have already pledged counts.
You don't have to hit the full goal.
So say you have a $100 goal with a $5 buy in, and decide to start it once you reach $50. If three guys pledge into your show while it's going on, that WILL NOT count, but if someone who has already pledged the $5 tips additionally while the show is going on, that WILL count.
Extra pledges while the countdown is still going on in Party DO NOT count.
ShadyPinesMa
10-30-2015, 10:46 AM
^^^ From what I gather, the GS gold is not going to be counted towards the contest what.so.ever. Gold towards the contest is going to be counted as a TIP only and will say "Gold count" and the Gold for Shows will say "Gold Show".
So tips DURING the show won't count either?
Because in order for that to work they need to completely change the way gold shows up in our earnings, because tips during gold shows show up for me exactly the way a tip in free does.
gingerstripper
10-30-2015, 10:53 AM
oh okay :) thank you!
MistressX
10-30-2015, 11:10 AM
From my understanding nothing from
Gold shows counts? So if you do gold shows then gold from people who have already paid counts? It says in the email "gold show pledges and gold given during gold shows do NOT count as votes". ???
I'm confused lol
ShadyPinesMa
10-30-2015, 11:15 AM
From my understanding nothing from
Gold shows counts? So if you do gold shows then gold from people who have already paid counts? It says in the email "gold show pledges and gold given during gold shows do NOT count as votes". ???
I'm confused lol
This is my opinion on it...They already got this shit wrong THREE other times...their own rules, for their own contest.
Gold tipped DURING a goldshow shows up in my earnings the EXACT SAME as gold tipped in free.
What's more likely, that they got their shit wrong YET AGAIN, or that they're going to change how our earnings work for a single day?
IvyAdams
10-30-2015, 11:36 AM
This is my opinion on it...They already got this shit wrong THREE other times...their own rules, for their own contest.
Gold tipped DURING a goldshow shows up in my earnings the EXACT SAME as gold tipped in free.
What's more likely, that they got their shit wrong YET AGAIN, or that they're going to change how our earnings work for a single day?
yeah, this is kind of my opinion on the whole thing also. Guess we'll find out!
Kitcatt
10-30-2015, 11:38 AM
Yep, I'd agree with that Shady. I think anything with the line item of "gold" counts. I just want to know how they took a concept that was so easy and managed to make it so complicated?
ShadyPinesMa
10-30-2015, 11:47 AM
Yep, I'd agree with that Shady. I think anything with the line item of "gold" counts. I just want to know how they took a concept that was so easy and managed to make it so complicated?
I hope that they just sincerely got it wrong and aren't trying to pull a fast one to get more models online and participating.
I know a lot of girls weren't going to bother when it included goldshows/goldshow tips, either because they don't like doing them or because they thought the contest would get gamed by $0 shows.
Kitcatt
10-30-2015, 12:31 PM
I see many "selling all my content for life" kinds of things going on. Actually, I know it's going to go on. Whateves, I get to wear a pvc cat suit and yell at guys all night, that's all I care about :)
Bootsie
10-30-2015, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I am selling a bunch of video packs and stuff. I know I won't make top 100, but I am looking at it as a chance to maybe have some new guys find me. I'll be pissed if there are glitches with exclusives and stuff though, since I will be doing pvts and such still. I have a great playlist and a few cute costumes and lots of energy drinks and candy. But yeah, I bet there will be girls offering ridiculous amounts of content insanely cheap, and probably a fair number offering snapchat and other contact methods. It's going to be a shit show, there will be accusations of cheating, models will be bad-mouthing each other, and SM will somehow fuck it all up. It's gonna be great!
IvyAdams
10-30-2015, 12:55 PM
LOL. @bootsie It will be just like Myfreecams on SM!
I'm gonna do some games and hang out in free chat, sell some vids, do some shows. Why the hell not? When in Rome...and I like the money. You bet your sweet ass I'll adapt. :)
cymonehearts
10-30-2015, 01:53 PM
i may have missed this .. but can someone help me to understand why it is that when a girl in a studio does a goldshow she's promoted or pushed to the top three rows.
example: in my category i'm placed number 4 spot and the studio girl is number 6. we both run a gold show at the same time . . her goldshow pushes her placement way ahead of mines.
Is this because they do the "tv show/ guaranteed show" or are there other reasons?
xCamLovex
10-30-2015, 01:53 PM
I'm not participating in the carrot dangle contest. I don't buy the "GS glitch" at times...it seems Streamate is finding tactics to bring customers to watch their models. Like MFC, any room you click you can find a cumshow 24/7. streamate seems more conservative to guys because they can't sample anyone unless they pay. Coincidentally, now Gold Shows can be seen in public chat and right in time for this Halloween contest. If that's not a tactic to get girls online and new guys to sample Streamate I don't know what is. I don't take this personally because SM is a business and we're just tools in their business but common. Fix your website before dangling carrots in our faces.
Issabelle
10-30-2015, 01:59 PM
ummmmm I just tried to look at @streamate on twitter and.....
43104
Interestingly, @SmRecruiting and Vanessa's work Twitter (both maintained by her) are still up and running.
PumpkinSpicy
10-30-2015, 04:41 PM
What I feel like saying to SM after all this contest confusion:
https://youtu.be/-tGL-buZ94Y?t=7
First they told us ALL gold would count, gold shows included.
Then they told us no, gold shows won't count.
Then they told us gold tipped during gold shows won't count either?
It's like no one in support knows what's going on and they threw this all together at the last second to take advantage of camgirls' fanbases. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't end up paying the prizes out to anyone, and just end up saying "you didn't win" to everyone.
Cutie101
10-30-2015, 06:45 PM
I might have to upgrade my laptop, I never had 1 issue with the old settings but with the new ones it's not unusual for me to be laggy and pixelated. I didn't think it was me for a while because my rankings have all been fine and it's not like it's always fucking up, but it was just pixelated now while I tried to stream and when I checked some of the top girls' rooms their feeds were fine.
Hey Genoveve! How can I get into the LOA group? I tried to send u a message, but you don't have this option :(
webcamcutie
10-30-2015, 07:56 PM
43104
Interestingly, @SmRecruiting and Vanessa's work Twitter (both maintained by her) are still up and running.
Not the first time their twitter account has been suspended, lol.
Issabelle
10-30-2015, 08:00 PM
Not the first time their twitter account has been suspended, lol.
Wouldn't surprise me. I just find it extra amusing that they get suspended during the Halloween contest shit storm.
Which, fyi, is exactly as entertaining to watch as I expected it would be. It's a lot of top models saying they need gold tipped in free chat in exchange for videos and that when they get enough free chat tips (i.e. $100, $200, etc.) to equal what they'd normally charge for a gold show, they'll set the show to a $0 or $1 buy in and everyone can join extra cheap/free on a guaranteed show.
I'm not knocking the hustle, but it's also unlike anything any of these girls normally do so reading the chatroom convos reveals a lot of incredibly confused customers. *shrugs* Guess that's SM for ya...