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kortneykay
11-03-2015, 11:57 AM
@KitCatt^^^That's proof that you still won something and you don't do regular GS so her "complaint" isn't valid. I bet several of the 200 who did win or got tipped don't all do GS. You decided to show up and hustle for your money, you earned that. Contest or not. At the end of the day we need to stop constantly blaming sites when we're all the authors of our own destiny. I know that sounds cheesy as heck but it's true. Humans have options. If you don't think something is fair (and life just isn't and never will be) add more eggs or quit the job. It's that simple. If you hate eating chicken, go out and buy some steak. :P

ZafinaX
11-03-2015, 12:03 PM
I'm not gonna lie when I first started camming, I was one of those chronic complainers and now a year and some change later, the stank attitude dropped and my earnings went up! I don't even like doing GS and still get better every time I show up online. And you are so right about the options! I made up the time to sign up for indy sites, video/clip/content-selling sites and other live streaming sites to cam on so when my main site(s) go down, there's alternatives to being productive.

It's something about refusing to be broke in a positive way that gets you that money I guess lol

Vlodina
11-03-2015, 12:30 PM
Is it just me or is placement completely out of wack?

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 12:55 PM
I went out Saturday. I rarely do well on Saturday nights so meh. I think the zero dollar shows was a way of gaming the system. But it's within site rules so meh again. Honestly some of those names that were listed as winners. I had never heard of those girls before. So in a way that was kind of refreshing. I would love to see the entire list to get a little more perspective. Or even how much gold they brought in. Just imagine if gold tips in free chat counted as heavily as some of the other crap. I'd sling everything but the kitchen sink.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 12:57 PM
Is it just me or is placement completely out of wack?

Yes its a bit off. And my shows are cutting off early. No bueno

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 01:19 PM
I went in to this contest with hard work and effort and whether i won or not wasnt the reason i ended up with a great pay period. The contest helped me improve my hustle and win or not i am proud of the hard work and the money i made during that. I am going to use that as a motivation for every day i work, yes i should have before and i usually have tried my best but i pushed myself beyond my limit and now know that if i use that motivation in my daily camming, it will make it a win situation whether i have a good day or not. I will know i have and can do that every day if i try hard enough. Congrats to the ladies who won. I walked away with this as a positive because a contest isnt the reason i succeeded that day it was because of me and my dedication and hard work. Im not bragging or putting anyone down im just speaking the positive of this all on my side of it.I had fun regardless and did well so im happy for that. Again congrats to those who won.

Blovely
11-03-2015, 01:33 PM
I went out Saturday. I rarely do well on Saturday nights so meh. I think the zero dollar shows was a way of gaming the system. But it's within site rules so meh again. Honestly some of those names that were listed as winners. I had never heard of those girls before. So in a way that was kind of refreshing. I would love to see the entire list to get a little more perspective. Or even how much gold they brought in. Just imagine if gold tips in free chat counted as heavily as some of the other crap. I'd sling everything but the kitchen sink.
I don't really care to see the names because some of the ladies want anonymity but I was expecting/hoping to see how much gold was earned. I think it would've been really inspiring to see how much(or at least a round about number) was earned. They could've posted the numbers without putting the models names next to the number in case some didn't want others to know how much they earned.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 01:41 PM
^^Thats what i meant. I dont want anyone to be exposed. But the figures would be great.

pippapippa
11-03-2015, 02:18 PM
I'm having really terrible issues with lagging today. I've made $5 in an hour. It's definitely not my internet that's fucking up because I've tested it repeatedly and everything is normal.

webcamcutie
11-03-2015, 02:25 PM
I didn't win squat, knew I WOULDN'T win squat, couldn't invest the hours because I had a little one to take out on Saturday but I think the contest was an awesome idea! And dressing up was FUN and I was going to do it anyways! I had an excuse to be girly and less 'girl next doorsie' and found some gorgeous red heels (and black ones too which I scooped) for my monsterous feet which I didn't even THINK was possible, and some stockings too, and that in itself was a win for me!

Camming is all of what YOU make of it not what others are doing to make YOUR hustle not as good as theirs, and thats just the bottom line, if you don't like how things are going for you, then change how you do it, period. Everyone has equal opportunities and sometimes that requires you to change how you do things. Congrats to all the winners, looking forward to more contests in the future!

KatM
11-03-2015, 03:04 PM
Sorry guys, not participating in the Propaganda some of you play here, how about ignoring my posts, the ones who feel the need to lecture others always?!
I AM NOT YOU and YOU ARE NOT ME, period. I dont need to explain myself to anyone & i dont have to be in a certain way to be allowed on cam or even here,
I AM WHO I AM & am totally fine with who i am, i dont live anyone's life and nobody lives my life; i have the right to post whatever i feel like posting whether u like it or not so back off pls, keep ur lectures for the ones interested in it.
That was my point of view regarding this contest, everyone has the right to express their point of view.
Thank you.

BambiCutie
11-03-2015, 03:08 PM
Things were a little slow for me today too, but a lot of guys kept asking for gunge which I only do in party/gold shows. I try to strictly dedicate full dunking in MFC only.. (Didn't expect many requests) Made 51.30 today in about 3/4hrs so not the greatest, but I am determined to make this work. So far I am really liking the fetish requests and nipple play!

kortneykay
11-03-2015, 03:13 PM
Sorry guys, not participating in the Propaganda some of you play here, how about ignoring my posts, the ones who feel the need to lecture others always?!
I AM NOT YOU and YOU ARE NOT ME, period. I dont need to explain myself to anyone & i dont have to be in a certain way to be allowed on cam or even here,
I AM WHO I AM & am totally fine with who i am, i dont live anyone's life and nobody lives my life; i have the right to post whatever i feel like posting whether u like it or not so back off pls, keep ur lectures for the ones interested in it.
That was my point of view regarding this contest, everyone has the right to express their point of view.
Thank you.

Sweetie, if you were fine, you wouldn't complain. PERIOD. Who wants to be fine anyway? Wouldn't you rather be GREAT?

When humans complain (we all do from time to time) we're letting others know that we're having an issue and we're either not sure how to fix it, or we want empathy for our situation. Wake up and be honest with yourself. You've been complaining a lot so you're giving off a vibe to other humans that something isn't right and it's natural for some people to want to help you. It's the fact that you're so keen on staying down that you refuse to see anything beyond your suffering. That's a victim and defeatist mentality. Open your mind and your attitude will change, I promise you that.

I personally don't have the energy to argue with you over it as it's your life, your situation, and you can do what you want but I refuse to allow you to bring my positive energy down. Propaganda? Boo, you have at least 2-3 threads filled with complaints and negativity. It sounds to me like your bitterness is the only propaganda and intent of your threads/post. Don't you ever get tired of being miserable 24/7? Yeah, ignoring you is my next step so this will be the last you hear from me about your negativity. I just feel bad for you because these 'lectures' are meant to offer you a solution but I honestly think you just get off on complaining and misery loves company. I'd rather make money, honey which I thought you wanted to do as well, I guess not. Complaining is for the wealthy. I can't afford to.
Good luck! I won't say anything else on it.

KatM
11-03-2015, 03:23 PM
^^^ Maybe complaining is my defense mechanism, some people are wired like this. Thank you for ur concerns, just know that if i need help i ask directly, i dont need people to lecture me for every 'negative' post how u call it. I want to have the freedom to bitch, i like bitching same like others like bragging ;). Ty!

euro_princess
11-03-2015, 03:30 PM
(I do not belong in this discussion, I know)

I would rather brag, than bitch! Who doesn't want to? Spoil me with cash, boys, so I can keep posting on this forum. Haha.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 03:35 PM
Things were a little slow for me today too, but a lot of guys kept asking for gunge which I only do in party/gold shows. I try to strictly dedicate full dunking in MFC only.. (Didn't expect many requests) Made 51.30 today in about 3/4hrs so not the greatest, but I am determined to make this work. So far I am really liking the fetish requests and nipple play!

I love gunge shows too. I especially love the term gunge. Rarely hear it used in the States.

kortneykay
11-03-2015, 03:38 PM
^^Right, I'm not trying to be rude but there's nothing wrong with being proud of your hard work and achievements. Bragging is showing off and keeping the "how" to yourself. Praise is different, it's being worthy of something. BBs here may 'brag' but they have big hearts and will help you bank, too. It's one thing to post about how much you made and not help your fellow cammodels make just as much or more than you did. It's called reaching past the glass ceiling. Breaking barriers and proving that we can all do well with hard work.

If you choose to get a stank attitude towards someone else's accomplishments you need to get your jealousy in tact because it will eat you alive. Chronic complaining never offers a solution with the complaint because it doesn't want to find a solution. Chronic complainers can be attention whores as well. Unhappy attention whores. I'd rather be a gloating attention whore with a big ass smile on my face, money in my bank, and proud to have helped my fellow cam sisters get there as well. I suppose you can try and help someone so much but if they can't see beyond their own issues, they'll keep slapping your hand away then complaining that you won't hear them complain anymore, lol.

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 03:43 PM
Ill lighten up the mood a little and let you all laugh at me asking this, hell im laughing at myself now but im curious as to what a gunge show is.. never heard of it, and im too curious so i have to ask :)

webcamcutie
11-03-2015, 03:47 PM
^^ Same.

Blovely
11-03-2015, 03:49 PM
@Chellyinparadise I was wondering that too. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 03:50 PM
HAHA :) i have too curious of a mind it gets the best of me sometimes and a little laugh is good for you

KatM
11-03-2015, 03:53 PM
^^^ Right, let's not fight over this, it's not worth the time and energy, i have much more important situations to take care of.
You may want to take off that piece of info u disclosed in ur previous post, is not right to bring that in public here, i changed it with a purpose, ty!.

Pls go ahead with ur ways, i'll go ahead with my ways, if u feel like helping people succeed pls choose the ones who ask for help, dont shove it in everyone's face, i dont need to be told how to make money, i know how money can be made but i choose to do things my way for various reasons, u dont know my personal reasons & u dont need to know them so again, i am perfectly aware of things & i decide what to do here, i dont need to be told what is good for me & what not, is rude to tell people to wake up, i am perfectly awake, i just dont live my life by ur standards.
You better understand that people are different, we have different life style, goals & priorities, there is not a norm to live or work, everyone does what they want and can.
Let's stop here now Ty!

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 03:58 PM
Ill lighten up the mood a little and let you all laugh at me asking this, hell im laughing at myself now but im curious as to what a gunge show is.. never heard of it, and im too curious so i have to ask :)

Its wet and messy. And i too was attempting to lighten the mood. I mean who can't smile while thinking about playing in pudding and chocolate sauce?

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 03:59 PM
Dont get me started on my love affair with jello and cool whip #fatgirlproblems

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 03:59 PM
Its wet and messy. And i too was attempting to lighten the mood. I mean who can't smile while thinking about playing in pudding and chocolate sauce?

Ah ok, thanks so much~ never did that before but sounds like fun :)

Blovely
11-03-2015, 04:12 PM
@PhatGirlDynomite!!! You're making me hungry lol.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
11-03-2015, 05:05 PM
Well damn

BambiCutie
11-03-2015, 05:20 PM
Ill lighten up the mood a little and let you all laugh at me asking this, hell im laughing at myself now but im curious as to what a gunge show is.. never heard of it, and im too curious so i have to ask :)

lol, a lot of people ask me this and it sometimes makes me want to put up my FAQ sections on my main site. Gunge is another word for slime/Gunge girl. You pretty much swim, play with toys, chains, rope, slowly pour slime all over yourself in green and different temperatures, colors to get off. There are games and prizes that people can win like slime bombs (balloon filled where they can request to pop them in whatever way to see if they found the key. I have to go sliding through the slime to find it. I only make it MFC because I am not too sure if SM will allow it really.. At the end of the show you do a final head dunk! I wanted to find the same material as Nickelodeon's slime and it took me a lot of searching to find someone with the formula. (can use food thickener too) Its hell of fun but a bitch to lay down plastic sheeting, blow up the mini pool and create jugs of Gungy goodness! :heartbeat It actually brings a lot of attention in my chat..guys pop in and ask if I will do it in Excl/Priv and then leave sad when I tell them my batch is old.

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 05:28 PM
lol, a lot of people ask me this and it sometimes makes me want to put up my FAQ sections on my main site. Gunge is another word for slime/Gunge girl. You pretty much swim, play with toys, chains, rope, slowly pour slime all over yourself in green and different temperatures, colors to get off. At the end of the show you do a final head dunk! I wanted to find the same material as Nickelodeon's slime and it took me a lot of searching to find someone with the formula. (can use food thickener too) Its hell of fun but a bitch to lay down plastic sheeting, blow up the mini pool and create jugs of Gungy goodness! :heartbeat It actually brings a lot of attention in my chat..guys pop in and ask if I will do it in Excl/Priv and then leave sad when I tell them my batch is old.

That sounds so interesting and very unique! Thanks for the insight on it. It definately is something that i would have never guessed. Love to learn new things and the saying is definately true you learn something new every day. Thanks again, i wish you the best with it. :)

Bootsie
11-03-2015, 06:29 PM
lol, a lot of people ask me this and it sometimes makes me want to put up my FAQ sections on my main site. Gunge is another word for slime/Gunge girl. You pretty much swim, play with toys, chains, rope, slowly pour slime all over yourself in green and different temperatures, colors to get off. There are games and prizes that people can win like slime bombs (balloon filled where they can request to pop them in whatever way to see if they found the key. I have to go sliding through the slime to find it. I only make it MFC because I am not too sure if SM will allow it really.. At the end of the show you do a final head dunk! I wanted to find the same material as Nickelodeon's slime and it took me a lot of searching to find someone with the formula. (can use food thickener too) Its hell of fun but a bitch to lay down plastic sheeting, blow up the mini pool and create jugs of Gungy goodness! :heartbeat It actually brings a lot of attention in my chat..guys pop in and ask if I will do it in Excl/Priv and then leave sad when I tell them my batch is old.

OH. MY. GOD. This sounds like the most fun you can have! *runs off to look for recipes*

PumpkinSpicy
11-03-2015, 06:50 PM
I don't really care to see the names because some of the ladies want anonymity but I was expecting/hoping to see how much gold was earned. I think it would've been really inspiring to see how much(or at least a round about number) was earned. They could've posted the numbers without putting the models names next to the number in case some didn't want others to know how much they earned.

IDK if this helps very much because the exact placement hasn't come out yet, but I made just under $800 in GOLD for the contest, which comes out to about $2285 total billed.

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 06:57 PM
@pumkinspicy thats awesome. thanks for sharing.

Glamourmilf
11-03-2015, 07:18 PM
Did anyone not get their check yet? Here we go again. Ughh!

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:22 PM
IDK if this helps very much because the exact placement hasn't come out yet, but I made just under $800 in GOLD for the contest, which comes out to about $2285 total billed.

Hey congrats!
I ended up in 3rd place...
Does anyone know who landed which position?

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:24 PM
If they do another contest again i hope it will be a contest where everyone has chances to win, not only the people offering lots of content and $0 gold shows for votes cause i tell you what guys, for the ones who dont normally do gold shows, dont have a GS following & dont sell content on SM ~~IT WAS AWFUL~~, i took saturday off after a dead friday shift, FOR ME it was NO fun at all & i know others had the same, they just dont post much about it cause well, it's embarrassing.
Take note SM, while some models won nice prizes a lot more lost money due to this contest rules, i repeat myself, make it possible for everyone to win next time.

Actually any contributions for gold shows didn't count even the free shows..it had to be gold given in free chat ...after the show started if ppl pledged gold that also counted ...they made it gold only so that even girls who didn't do gold shows could participate fairly

Chellyinparadise
11-03-2015, 07:32 PM
Congrats jenny as well.

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:40 PM
If they do another contest again i hope it will be a contest where everyone has chances to win, not only the people offering lots of content and $0 gold shows for votes cause i tell you what guys, for the ones who dont normally do gold shows, dont have a GS following & dont sell content on SM ~~IT WAS AWFUL~~, i took saturday off after a dead friday shift, FOR ME it was NO fun at all & i know others had the same, they just dont post much about it cause well, it's embarrassing.
Take note SM, while some models won nice prizes a lot more lost money due to this contest rules, i repeat myself, make it possible for everyone to win next time.

btw what sudjestions do you have to make it more fair for everyone to win and I can pass those along...

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:43 PM
I won something, it was fun, but I DO understand KatM's complaint. I only do tvgolds and don't really have a gold show audience, so I couldn't spend the night holding guys hostage in free chat until there were enough tips in to run a free gold show ( I don't mean this term to be bitchy, that's how one model described it who was doing it). I also don't sell content, so another strike against me for the possibility at a top 10 run. Also, I was in shows 50% of the time so that was time that no one could tip me.

BUT, I got around $500 in tips for doing absolutelyfuckingnothing except showing up in a costume, AND I was in shows 50% of the time on a night that generally sucks balls for me, so I am not going to complain. It would be nice if it didn't bend so far to the gold show side but, eh. The only other way I could see the contest working is total income and that would equally piss models off.


omg haha to funny that was me "holding them hostage" it was a joke tho odviously they could leave whenever they wanted to ... I was just talking to my buddies he is the one who started it he was like your holding me hostage lol So I started telling them I was holding them hostage.. I wasnt trying to build a giant crowd I just was waiting untill the 5 pm mark hit since that is when the contest started for me lol...

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:46 PM
I don't really care to see the names because some of the ladies want anonymity but I was expecting/hoping to see how much gold was earned. I think it would've been really inspiring to see how much(or at least a round about number) was earned. They could've posted the numbers without putting the models names next to the number in case some didn't want others to know how much they earned.

I made 1100 in "gold"

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:54 PM
btw to the girls that didn't think it was fair and they weren't givin a chance to win cuz of not doing gold shows or selling content...
firstly gold show earnings did not count not even free shows..fyi
What would you sudjest to make it more "fair"
Girls are gonna do whatever it takes to win though and if you don't , you wont win..
Girls are gonna hustle , sell content and give away alot of shit for cheap to get as much "gold" as possible..
Honestly they tried to make it fair to the girls who don't do gold shows by making it gold only that way gold for gold shows wouldn't count towards the contest but zero gold show , shows didn't count either alot of us were just doing zero shows to collect the gold in free chat since that is all that counted for the contest and then start a free show since everyone already paid in free chat ...

The next contest will be somewhere around the end of November and this time a list will be posted on the site for all members and all models to see!!
All names will be posted as anonymous and if the models who win wish to they can make there name visible!

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 07:55 PM
Congrats jenny as well.

ty! I worked 9 hrs in 2 days which is alot for me haha ! Looks like I shouldve tried alittle harder lol

GracieBlue
11-03-2015, 07:58 PM
Congratulations to all the winners! My takeaway from all of this is that....Streamate is alive and kicking! There is money to be made!

43144

justanothercamgirl
11-03-2015, 08:17 PM
btw to the girls that didn't think it was fair and they weren't givin a chance to win cuz of not doing gold shows or selling content...
firstly gold show earnings did not count not even free shows..fyi
What would you sudjest to make it more "fair"
Girls are gonna do whatever it takes to win though and if you don't , you wont win..
Girls are gonna hustle , sell content and give away alot of shit for cheap to get as much "gold" as possible..
Honestly they tried to make it fair to the girls who don't do gold shows by making it gold only that way gold for gold shows wouldn't count towards the contest but zero gold show , shows didn't count either alot of us were just doing zero shows to collect the gold in free chat since that is all that counted for the contest and then start a free show since everyone already paid in free chat ...

The next contest will be somewhere around the end of November and this time a list will be posted on the site for all members and all models to see!!
All names will be posted as anonymous and if the models who win wish to they can make there name visible!

My only suggestion on making the contest more fair would be for Streamate to communicate better about what the actual rules for their contests are. I truly appreciate the fyi about the $0 gold shows from you because I was finding it really hard to actually get clarification on which type of gold that Streamate was going to be counting.

As a side note, congrats on kicking ass in the contest!

Edited to add: I just read your post again and now I am totally confused! So $0 gold shows did count then since girls could collect gold in free chat that way? So, does that mean that the girls who could do $0 gold shows because they had the ability to do gold shows would have the ability to collect more money in free chat then girls who still didn't receive permission from Streamate yet to get to run gold shows? Ugh, I am sorry I am still so slow but I am still confused. Okay, I just scrolled back and I see that you said that $0 gold show pledges didn't count...I think. Am I right? Also...would you know on what Streamate's policies are on sending out content these days? I haven't found any policy posted. Sorry for all the questions....Streamate doesn't make it easy to follow the rules as they always seem to keep changing them. :)

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 08:27 PM
My only suggestion on making the contest more fair would be for Streamate to communicate better about what the actual rules for their contests are. I truly appreciate the fyi about the $0 gold shows from you because I was finding it really hard to actually get clarification on which type of gold that Streamate was going to be counting.

As a side note, congrats on kicking ass in the contest!

Edited to add: I just read your post again and now I am totally confused! So $0 gold shows did count then since girls could collect gold in free chat that way? So, does that mean that the girls who could do $0 gold shows because they had the ability to do gold shows would have the ability to collect more money in free chat then girls who still didn't receive permission from Streamate yet to get to run gold shows? Ugh, I am sorry I am still so slow but I am still confused.

No 0 gold shows did NOT count ..what I was saying is alot of us were collecting gold for gold shows in free chat rather then w a gold show timer running since that didn't count and only gold Givin in free chat counted..I can only speak for myself but I was doing it that way and I was doing free shows since they already paid for the show in free chat so I didn't want to charge th em twice so I jist made the show free..Some guys hit there limit so if I charged for the show they wouldnt have been able to even watch it lol

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 08:29 PM
So basically No gold shows did not count at all not even free shows lol...
Streamate knows that not all girls can do gold shows so to make it fair NO gold show earnings counted :)

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 08:33 PM
It's not really "fair" when some girls have videos and some don't. Some have great gold tipping customers some don't. Some will have an awesome costume, but no gold. Some will have a shitty costume and tons of gold. too much competing in my book and it ends up making women a little grumpy. A better way to encourage fun times with costumes would have been just to have a little bonus to ALL models who stream anytime during Halloween who are in costume. Even just a few bucks, or constant rotating placement to the front page for all models in costume. They have enough of our cut to pay a little back and without the head-ache of competition.


I dunno I mean that's sort of a personal opinion I wouldn't say it's not fair to girls who have no vids ,then make some ..I for one love a competition it motivates me to work for something and makes things alil more fun and alot less boring! I don't really th ink that it's NOT FAIR that some girls have big gold tipping customers though that doesn't make sense to say really lol

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 08:34 PM
Well...I tried last night and had NO traffic...not my normal traffic at all. But I got fifteen votes ha ha. And I learned something great...I JUST LOVED wearing a wig. Never had before.

Me to it was slower then normal for me both Friday and sat

audritwo
11-03-2015, 08:40 PM
I didn't win shit because I didn't work. lol. Grats all the ladies that won and put the time in! You deserve it.


Also I'm not big on contests, they've never been my thing. Hence why everytime I'm nominated for some cam reward I ask to be removed.

justanothercamgirl
11-03-2015, 08:44 PM
No 0 gold shows did NOT count ..what I was saying is alot of us were collecting gold for gold shows in free chat rather then w a gold show timer running since that didn't count and only gold Givin in free chat counted..I can only speak for myself but I was doing it that way and I was doing free shows since they already paid for the show in free chat so I didn't want to charge th em twice so I jist made the show free..Some guys hit there limit so if I charged for the show they wouldnt have been able to even watch it lol

Thank you for clarifying! I am sorry about my being so confused. I swear I am honestly trying to keep up. :)

I hate to bug you again but I have another question that has been driving me crazy. Would you also happen to know what Streamate's policy on selling content is these days? If it wasn't for Stripperweb I wouldn't even know we could sell content. I wasn't able to find it in our performer's manual.

JennyCouture
11-03-2015, 08:47 PM
U can sell vids and pics and that's it and they can't have a Backlink you have to use like mediafire or go daddy to host ur vids and u can send th em a link that goes to just the vid and nowhere else :)