View Full Version : The AdultWork Thread
MissLouiseKay
11-01-2020, 11:24 PM
logged on and NO1 is coming in! my prices look stupid at weird amounts!
Please remember that 10000s of people have just had their businesses shut down. Life is wank ATM. Its gonna make it harder for us
Blonde-Ambition
11-01-2020, 11:28 PM
life is a TOTAL joke at the minute! my anxiety is fucking terrible!
are people keeping their prices the same? or amending them to what they were before?
MissLouiseKay
11-01-2020, 11:34 PM
life is a TOTAL joke at the minute! my anxiety is fucking terrible!
are people keeping their prices the same? or amending them to what they were before?
Its not ideal but its not that bad. from thursday 1000s of people arent allowed to work. Yeah I hate workin for less and paying out more but I am thankful to be able to make an income. we have the facility to work 24/7 if need be. Its far from ideal but its not that bad
MissLouiseKay
11-01-2020, 11:55 PM
I have contacted AW about the VAT as it seems unfair to be charged for income made pre november..... I am not happy about paying it now but its 200 odd quid lost for work prior to november which doesnt seem right
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 12:01 AM
i am going to do the same!
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 12:52 AM
in tears already! this is terrible! :( i'm so stressed out!
Dahlia Fallon
11-02-2020, 02:00 AM
If you want to amend your prices to a round number to help gentlemen with their wank maths, maybe try rounding up first. You never know your luck
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-02-2020, 02:01 AM
If you want to amend your prices to a round number to help gentlemen with their wank maths, maybe try rounding up first. You never know your luck ��
I’m too scared to try this, LOL!
Dahlia Fallon
11-02-2020, 02:17 AM
Thing is, a VAT tribunal will try and bury any appellant in detail, even when definitions are truly splitting hairs. Realistically speaking I doubt that arguing having adult entertainment as tax exempt using educational webinars as the precedent would make it past even an appeal let alone a tribunal.
I think the educational materials are exempt in the USA from sales tax in some cases but with VAT they are only exempt from the VATMOSS accounting scheme, not VAT as a whole.
MissLouiseKay
11-02-2020, 02:43 AM
Not that this makes it better but if you are like me and have a daily target and spreadsheet What adultwork is taking with VAT is about 58% ish. Its helped me be less angry about it. I'm not happy but such is life. I am very much full of gratitude to still be working. I have lowered my rates to match my old ones. Yup I am having to work a harder for less but like I said I am working. I work in a beauty salon and all of my colleagues will be with out any sort of income for at least a month. I think this is helping me rationalise how bad it actually isnt.
fetishqueen
11-02-2020, 03:06 AM
I worked the cut out to be around 50% but obviously that changes for people in groups or if you are including stuff like positioning or featuring.
For me the cut used to be nothing for VAT, 5% for JCI and then 30% for fees. So on a cam price of £2 per minute it's down to £1.90 after the JCI charge and then down to £1.33 after the 30% fee. So we got around 66.5% of what we charged.
NOW, a cam price of £2 per min shows at £2.40 but because we don't get the VAT the JCI is still 5% of £2 but the fee is now 36% of the remaining £1.90 so we'd get around £1.21. So depending on how you are looking at it we now get about 50% of the actual price charged, £1.21 of £2.40. Assuming no positioning, featuring etc which would obviously take more.
Quite a change. We lose out and customers lose out too.
Dahlia Fallon
11-02-2020, 03:14 AM
The VAT on sales brings AW in line with other sites like Streamate, Onlyfans, Clips4sale and Bongacams, who do the same. Where their accounting methods differ is adding VAT to the cashing out of credits. I imagine this could have something to do with charging it as an 'admin fee' rather than in the example of streamate who 'pay monies as a percentage of revenue generated' and don't call it a fee but treat it more of a commission of the primary sale.
Admin fee = value added = VATable
Percentage of revenue = no value added = not VATable
53575
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 03:59 AM
WOW! that is ridiculous! yes i am aware we are still getting decent money but like fetish says, everyone loses out!
x
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 06:05 AM
oh here we go, already had regulars messaging asking why i have put my prices up! (i haven't!)
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-02-2020, 06:19 AM
Has anyone lowered there rates? Mine are now 1.67 / 2.51 so that they still show as 1.99 / 2.99 per minute :(
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 06:34 AM
nope i kept it the same as i'm not going to take home like 1 credit after they take their share of everything!
i messaged AW and i got an email back but it makes NO sense!
Kristen_Krystal
11-02-2020, 06:37 AM
This case is from 2015 where a lap dancing club took HMRC to the tribunal to argue that the dancers should be exempt from the service fee
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/tantalising-lap-dance-vat-case-win-for-hmrc
The judge ruled - “I agree that the 20 per cent charge reflects the fact that the dancer cannot provide her services to the non-cash customers without the much wider bundle of facilities and services provided by the clubs to create the environment in which the dancer can earn the Secrets money. That is what she is paying for.”
As online performers we are not as reliant on AW as a club in the same way as a stripper would be in an actual physical club because we provide our own facilities/props/settings etc
Dahlia Fallon
11-02-2020, 07:09 AM
This case is from 2015 where a lap dancing club took HMRC to the tribunal to argue that the dancers should be exempt from the service fee
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/tantalising-lap-dance-vat-case-win-for-hmrc
The judge ruled - “I agree that the 20 per cent charge reflects the fact that the dancer cannot provide her services to the non-cash customers without the much wider bundle of facilities and services provided by the clubs to create the environment in which the dancer can earn the Secrets money. That is what she is paying for.”
As online performers we are not as reliant on AW as a club in the same way as a stripper would be in an actual physical club because we provide our own facilities/props/settings etc
What the club was arguing for was that their £20 cut should be VAT exempt, not that the dancers should be exempt from the service fee itself. The house implemented the service fee themselves, they just wanted to be able to collect it without having to pay VAT on it. They tried to have it declared exempt as a financial service. HMRC said no, it is more than just a financial service, there is value added to the transaction by providing the 'secrets money' facility. You can't dance for guys with no cash in their wallet. In any case the house would just pass the VAT onto the girls (£4 in each £20). Which is what AW is doing.
I would imagine that provision of the AW platform itself would be enough to argue the same in a similar tribunal, just swap 'secrets money' for credits.
Kristen_Krystal
11-02-2020, 07:10 AM
This is another good blog on the SECRETS V HMRC case
https://www.bedrocktax.co.uk/lap-dancing-vat/
HMRC only won because they successfully argued that the service charge was part of a wider package provided by the club.
This - HMRC disagreed, arguing that the service comprises a package of ‘performance facilitation services’ provided to the dancer to enable her to exploit the opportunity to supply a wider market including non-cash customers. The judge at the Upper Tribunal agreed, confirming that the 20% cent commission payment charged by the club on redeeming the ‘Secrets money’ is a payment in return for services which go significantly beyond the simple receipt or dealing with security for money for the purposes of Item 1.
I feel that our services & commission charges are being unfairly compared to that of a real-time Adult Performer/Stripper because Adultwork do not go "significantly beyond the simple receipt or dealing with the security of money"
We are even encouraged to bring in our own customers. A lap -dancer wouldn't be expected to do that.
Dahlia Fallon
11-02-2020, 07:25 AM
I'd like to think that adultwork has got it right this time around and has consulted with the right braniacs about it all before implementing it. Last time it was a kind of shoot first ask questions later approach, which they have likely learned from. Like I said before I don't think it is a case of wrong accounting, just different accounting.
Maybe the other sites are getting around it by using a different standard. Maybe they have baked in the cost of VAT on their admin fees or cut before it is passed on to us (unlikely for quite a few reasons)
I really think that at this point it is all just a wait and see exercise like last time. I am TRYING to see the bright side, but all I could come up with was 'hey! at least we have a payment processor still' - It could always be worse :)
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 09:25 AM
this is fucking terrible! i am in floods of tears! this and covid and the thought of another lockdown, officially cannot cope! i feel like a total failure
fetishqueen
11-02-2020, 09:37 AM
Blondie do you work on other sites too or just AW?
Blonde-Ambition
11-02-2020, 09:39 AM
yep! 3 others! so i have 4 sites on the go and not ONE of them is going off or anything happening :(
Kristen_Krystal
11-02-2020, 06:13 PM
I've had a quick google on google & the only similar case I can find where someone appealed is the Secrets case.
Adultwork could appeal this & maybe argue that you can not compare a Private based Independent Adult Work online platform with that of a Lap Dancing Club because the facilities that AW supply are far less than a real-time club would supply.
It's always better to appeal & try & fight it than just lie down and accept it.
Escort agencies have also been subjected to it, but they provide the clients, do pictures, provide security, flats, condoms, wetwipes etc. They provide a full package of facilities. And yet pimping is supposed to be illegal but it's still subject to VAT. It's wrong in my mind.
Maybe, I'm reading it wrong but it seems to come down to how much " facillities a " club" provides is relevant in deciding that they must pay VAT on the service charge.
Anyway, it's shit.
Kristen_Krystal
11-02-2020, 07:36 PM
I think I'm going to ask to join Daily Pay Colin's new group at least then there will be no Vat on the service charge.
Blonde-Ambition
11-03-2020, 02:27 AM
i agree with you kristen, i am up for at least trying to fight it or looking into it at least!
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-04-2020, 12:50 AM
Ive had an email from a lady on AW today telling me to join her group and I won’t have to pay VAT on anything, yet in AWFP I do? I’m so confused if anyone could help lol ..
Carmel57
11-04-2020, 01:49 AM
Ive had an email from a lady on AW today telling me to join her group and I won’t have to pay VAT on anything, yet in AWFP I do? I’m so confused if anyone could help lol ..
Yes I’ve had that too. Not sure myself but Colin explained it a bit better about the new daily pay group.
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-04-2020, 01:51 AM
Has Colin made another group?
Carmel57
11-04-2020, 02:01 AM
Yes looks like it. One just to avoid paying the vat.
Has Colin made another group?
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-04-2020, 02:10 AM
Interesting! Thank you for that.
GeezLouise
11-04-2020, 04:32 AM
Ive had an email from a lady on AW today telling me to join her group and I won’t have to pay VAT on anything, yet in AWFP I do? I’m so confused if anyone could help lol ..
Was it Boudior Webcammers? I had the same email.
miss cleo
11-04-2020, 04:47 AM
ive just had an online chat with HMRC and they told me that to register for VAT MOSS you only had to earn £8,800, i told her I thought it was £85K and she said no. Im so confused, is anyone any further forward with this? xx
sexysusie
11-04-2020, 04:52 AM
For anyone considering joining a group to avoid the new admin fee, here is the info from daily pay. This is the ONLY group I'd ever recommend. It is called Adultwork's Finest Performers'. There has been a seperate part of the group set up specially so you don't pay a fee and don't get paid daily/weekly, everything stays as normal but minus the admin fee.
Do not join other groups, they're all coming out of the woodwork now.
http://adultworkforum.com/showthread.php?tid=11977
GeezLouise
11-04-2020, 05:14 AM
If Boleyn Models still offered daily pay on Adultwork not a single soul (except susie by the sounds of it) would ever consider joining colin.
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-04-2020, 05:18 AM
Was it Boudior Webcammers? I had the same email.
Yep! I was abit confused as to how we would get away with not paying VAT on featuring etc like she said in the email
CatBBW
11-04-2020, 05:36 AM
ive just had an online chat with HMRC and they told me that to register for VAT MOSS you only had to earn £8,800, i told her I thought it was £85K and she said no. Im so confused, is anyone any further forward with this? xx
You HAVE to register once your rolling gross yearly income is £85k, but it looks like you can VOLUNTARILY register if your rolling gross yearly income is £8,800.
CatBBW
11-04-2020, 05:38 AM
Ive had an email from a lady on AW today telling me to join her group and I won’t have to pay VAT on anything, yet in AWFP I do? I’m so confused if anyone could help lol ..
Group managers (and group members) are not allowed to spam non-members to drum up business, so you can report to AW if you aren't a member of that group, if you wish.
sexysusie
11-04-2020, 01:36 PM
Group managers are not allowed to spam non-members to drum up business, so you can report to AW if you aren't a member of that group, if you wish.
Definitely do that. All the parasite groups are swarming at the moment. I've had a couple of emails like that too and even twitter dm's yuck.
BritishCammer1992
11-04-2020, 08:29 PM
As sad as I am to hear everyone so upset, I'm glad I'm not the only one that's been pushed past breaking point by this. My mental health has been struggling all year and this sent me over the edge. It also didn't help that I completely missed the one and only email they sent us explaining when this new change would take place.
I have cried so many tears over this too, I just want to reach out to others in this thread and offer my support. Times are shit, well and truly. We have to stick together <3
The worse thing about this is being so damn in the dark about why this charge is happening. It's like your employer turning around and giving you a massive pay cut with zero explanation, makes it so much worse.
Can anyone explain where this extra charge is coming from in super simple dummy terms for me?
For some context I do all my own accounts and stuff as my expenses are so minimal and easy and cash basis means I just declare each week what I earn into my account I haven't ever needed to worry about confusion. The first tax return I did on my own was tricky but thanks to google I did it and now they're a piece of cake. I don't earn tons of money but enough (last tax year my turnover was about 30k) so VAT is never something I've come close to worrying about as the threshold is like 80k or something, I'm nowhere close. So why am I being charged it?!
I'm probably being stupid but I just simple don't get it and it sucks. Is it something to do with new EU/UK laws because of brexit?
Classy_Katy
11-04-2020, 11:31 PM
I'm not camming so I can't see for myself what it's doing but they cannot charge us VAT on the services we provide! We're not receiving that service, we're providing it! They can only possibly charge VAT on a service that we receive from them.
sexysusie
11-05-2020, 06:54 AM
It's confusing because there are TWO type of VAT being charged:
One that WE pay on the admin fee to cash out, and on anything we purchase such as featuring and positioning.
The one that CUSTOMERS pay on top of our prices. This is being correctly levied on videos, picture galleries, and pre-uploaded sale items. It is (I believe) being 'incorrectly' also levied on our prices for webcam, phone, and sales which are negotiated with customers. Anything that has an element of live interaction should not be subject to this VAT.
Anyways that's what's happening. Two types of VAT, we pay one, the customer pays the other.
Blonde-Ambition
11-05-2020, 07:59 AM
I’ve asked them why and they keep referring me to the help section vat topics ♀️
CatBBW
11-05-2020, 08:07 AM
I’ve asked them why and they keep referring me to the help section vat topics ����♀️
I think without asking them "why" you need to literally quote Susie's (and others) at them. Point out that their VAT info doesn't follow the correct regs and ask them what has changed at their end for them to be charging VAT on our fees now?
GeezLouise
11-05-2020, 08:11 AM
Is it not something to do with the digital services thing be EU? Does Brexit not change that?
PixiieGirl
11-05-2020, 08:33 AM
tbh having read all this, other camsites that arent UK based are also charging VAT to UK customers for live cam (SM does Im fairly sure)
on OF customers even get charged VAT on tips
ThatBritishCamGirl
11-05-2020, 08:43 AM
So I’ve been looking on AW at other girls rates, profiles etc and a few of them have stated this isn’t a permanent change! Is this true?
BritishCammer1992
11-05-2020, 08:44 AM
Are we completely helpless to this change? It seems they're in the wrong charging us VAT for the services that we provide and yet we have to sit down and accept them incorrectly taking more money from us then they should?! That doesn't seem right :/
MissLouiseKay
11-05-2020, 09:50 AM
It goes against everything I believe in but I have joined the group susie has recommended.... I have chatted to someone on skype and done a transfer already and I will let you know when it arrives and if its the correct amount. Only did 200 credits as a test but amount but saves me £10 in VAT. I like being independant and doing my own transfers and I am nervous about someone having access to my credits that said the hit of VAT is a lot so risk v reward. Its a good business model for them so fair play!
PixiieGirl
11-05-2020, 03:16 PM
Are we completely helpless to this change? It seems they're in the wrong charging us VAT for the services that we provide and yet we have to sit down and accept them incorrectly taking more money from us then they should?! That doesn't seem right :/
it depends if it is wrong or not I guess, short of starting a challenge to find out 100% if live cam is exempt or not Im not sure how people would find out - but the fact some other sites are charging to makes me think there is a case that it should be applied?