View Full Version : To offend, or not to?
yoda57us
07-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Now I'll agree that I might have gone a little dramatic in making the point, but I think that we would both agree that things are far cleaner today than they were back then.
Cleaner? LOL, well, there are now two clubs instead of fifteen so it's exponentially cleaner for sure. That being said, I don't think you can lump in open prostitution (and that's pretty much what it was back then) with what the main crux of this thread is rick. Given that Boston is a very escort-friendly city it would be interesting to see what the clubs would be like if there were still more of them!
I used to get some pretty amazing offers back then...I was either single or newly married so I wasn't really doing the whole P4P thing. I can't really agree or disagree with the way it is today, I don't waste my time in either of the two remaining Boston clubs but it is pretty easy to get laid in Boston...
JayATee
07-28-2011, 01:23 PM
I've never been to a SC in NY, even though I lived there until I was 21.
My first SC was in Dallas, probably around 2000. All the SCs I've been to (Dallas, Houston and surrounding cities) have been high-contact.
Yes and you haven't been clubbing long enough to know that is has zero to do with NY.
anouk.oui
07-28-2011, 04:19 PM
i just love it when ill-informed douchebags tell me how to do my job
Almost Jaded
07-28-2011, 05:29 PM
You do understand that it used to be all air dances all the time and that was the only type of dance you could get right? That's what I mean by ruined.
Jay, with all due respect - and you know I DO mean that - this is a surprisingly... Well, nieve statement. Especially from someone with a real brain like yourself! You haven't been in the biz all that many years - by simple virtue of being under 30, lol, and whatever people may say about "the good 'ol days" is idealized; always was and always will be, regardless of the subject at hand. I cannot think of a time, ever, that airdances were all that was available, all the time, everywhere. Even in strictly regulated states, contact has always been there with the dancers that so engaged their clients. This predates the birth of anyone on this board, lol.
jack0177057
07-28-2011, 05:38 PM
I've heard of city ordinances (Northeast U.S.?) that prohibit customers and dancers from coming within close range of each other - like within a few feet. Has that worked out well for dancers?
Do you dancers who prefer no-contact or low contact support these ordinances?
JayATee
07-28-2011, 06:01 PM
Jay, with all due respect - and you know I DO mean that - this is a surprisingly... Well, nieve statement. Especially from someone with a real brain like yourself! You haven't been in the biz all that many years - by simple virtue of being under 30, lol, and whatever people may say about "the good 'ol days" is idealized; always was and always will be, regardless of the subject at hand. I cannot think of a time, ever, that airdances were all that was available, all the time, everywhere. Even in strictly regulated states, contact has always been there with the dancers that so engaged their clients. This predates the birth of anyone on this board, lol.
Of course you can find dancers willing to break rules. That's not my point and neither here nor there.
yoda57us
07-28-2011, 06:25 PM
I cannot think of a time, ever, that airdances were all that was available, all the time, everywhere. Even in strictly regulated states, contact has always been there with the dancers that so engaged their clients. This predates the birth of anyone on this board, lol.
Come on dude really?
I'm 53, been clubbing since about 1984 and I can tell you that, up until about fifteen years ago even the clubs that are almost whore houses in Providence RI nowadays allowed no contact what so ever. Private dances at the very popular Foxy Lady used to be done with the dancer up on a small pedestal dancing in front of the customer. She couldn't take her cloths off until she was on the pedestal and she couldn't step down until she was dressed again. Moreover, the customer could not even give her so much as a thank-you hug (and that was ALL the contact that was allowed) until she was fully dressed.
Massachusetts didn't even allow private dances until seven or eight years ago and the "3 foot rule" is still in effect in many Mass clubs. Suffice to say, using words like "ever" "all the time" and " everywhere" when describing what goes on in strip clubs is a bit foolish. A long-time fav of mine has been dancing for about 20 years now and she remembers very well when stage dancing was all there was in every club she worked in all over the east coast. She actually remembers getting yelled at in some clubs for touching herself when she was on stage, never mind letting a guy do it!
A great deal of what we all experience is regional but New England offers a pretty good cross-section of what happens all over the country and the evolution of contact lap dances. The interesting thing is that, as contact has become prostitution in the RI clubs (the dirtiest in New England) the money has equalized to the point where a relatively clean dancer can make as much money in a Mass. club as a dirty dancer can in a Providence club. This was not the case five or ten years ago. At the dawn of the "contact era" dancers flocked to RI to get groped and make thousands of dollars a week. Mass clubs lost a ton of business and slowly the restrictions loosened though it was strictly an ad-hoc club-by-club occurrence. As contact increased some dancers began to draw the line. As the economy tanked and dancer revenue decreased many girls became unwilling to put up with higher contact for less money.
It's too bad that all regions don't offer the diversity in clubs and state regulations that are prevalent in New England. Dancers here do have options if they are willing to drive an hour or so to work. What I'm seeing in this part of the country-and what my favs are experiencing, tells me that high contact is not the only way to earn a living as a dancer or to keep happy customers.
rickdugan
07-28-2011, 06:42 PM
Jay, with all due respect - and you know I DO mean that - this is a surprisingly... Well, nieve statement. Especially from someone with a real brain like yourself! You haven't been in the biz all that many years - by simple virtue of being under 30, lol, and whatever people may say about "the good 'ol days" is idealized; always was and always will be, regardless of the subject at hand. I cannot think of a time, ever, that airdances were all that was available, all the time, everywhere. Even in strictly regulated states, contact has always been there with the dancers that so engaged their clients. This predates the birth of anyone on this board, lol.
I would have to say YES and NO. I think Jay's point is that many clubs, at one time in the not too distant past, "officially" offered much less contact than they do today and many did not allow contact at all. And along with that, customer expectations and behavior were drastically different than they are now.
IMHO yoda's points are right on the money, even if he doesn't believe that we should count blatant prostitution that used to be run out of the back doors of some clubs. ;) Now I answered "yes and no" because there were always some girls who bent or broke the rules in order to earn, but on the whole I would have to agree that many clubs used to be MUCH stricter about contact. Now there were always certain "dirty" clubs that were basically brothels fronting as strip clubs, but the lines were much brighter than they are today.
Now I have not been clubbing for quite as long as some of our more elder SW blues, but even in the 17 years that I have been doing this the club scene has transformed dramatically.
yoda57us
07-28-2011, 06:52 PM
IMHO yoda's points are right on the money, even if he doesn't believe that we should count blatant prostitution that used to be run out of the back doors of some clubs.
LOL, well that really is only for the sake of where this thread started. Clearly there is a very strong argument that girls who see customers OTC also have a negative effect on dancer earnings ITC.
Zesty
07-28-2011, 07:20 PM
*cough* davey's a troll douchebag *cough*
Almost Jaded
07-28-2011, 08:54 PM
I guess the diferences are far more drastic from region to region than I even thought, lol. :shrug: In the 15 years I've been going to clubs (okay, only 10 regularly) it hasn't changed all that much out west (4 states that I kave patronized clubs in). The availability of hardcore extras fluctuates with the economy more than anything, but that's a customer thing, not a dancer thing - if you're the guy that wants that, it's ALWAYS been available and always will be from certain girls. As for contact in the clubs - when I lived in Seattle, it was an airdance environment. Contact hapened. A lot. BJ's don't happen in most clubs here, period - when vice is around. Contact NEVER happened in Seattle, AT ALL - when vice was around...
Davey17
07-29-2011, 03:48 AM
*cough* davey's a troll douchebag *cough*
Thankyou for your contribution . A " troll " I certainly am not .
threlayer
07-29-2011, 01:15 PM
She's giving you what she can within all the constraints and trust she has built up. Don't pressure her, but it may not be a bad idea to tell her how attractive and fun she is. Make sure you give her more than the minimum. If anything else happens, it should be up to her.
Zesty
07-29-2011, 07:27 PM
Thankyou for your contribution . A " troll " I certainly am not .
As in being antagonistic for the sake of being annoying. Ya douche :P
My contribution: just ask the girl
Davey17
07-30-2011, 05:16 AM
As in being antagonistic for the sake of being annoying. Ya douche :P
My contribution: just ask the girl
If stating the facts regarding the current market place in Australia Annoys you .... then its pretty simple , no need to read it ...
Just stating the obvious , that you must see yourself ....
Anyhow , Good Luck with it !:O
safado
07-30-2011, 05:36 AM
I dont quite understand all your Rules and Options over there ..We dont have the likes of the VIP room ( or not the way I understand the VIP room ) ....
But yes , the low contact dance didn't exist at all here in the beginning ..then it came and went ..Legislation is an absolute joke , and if enforced would kill the industry here because no one would purchase the product , they have tried very hard to kill it .
Pushing up ( Incredibly ) the cost of licensing a venue , thus drastically incresing the price of a drink , also the Cover charge for the punter , the cost of a shift for the dancer ....while the end product is " Supposed " to be a prance around without a decent grind and participation ..Wouldn't be anyone of earth willing to pay for that ..Thus meaning the demise of the venue , starting with the weakest , and progressing accross all .
Few votes in an Exoctic Lap dance club unfortunately ...
These are the problems we potentially face here ...plus the more expensive the entry and drinks ..the less that gets spent on the end product . Remembering the population of our entire country is basically the population of one decent size State in the US .}:D
I am confused, are you saying that contrary to what I have read here, Australia is not some kind of air dance utopia?
mediocrity
07-30-2011, 05:51 AM
I remember when I started, my home club was air dance only and any girl who got caught breaking that rule was immediately suspended or terminated, depending on the severity of the infraction. I remember how shocked I was when I moved to San Francisco and found out that not all dances were the same. I remember how humiliated I felt doing high contact, and feeling forced to do it. Thus began the year of my 3,000 mile commute because I couldn't hang.
Threads like this make me think for a number of reasons. For one, when did being able to admire a beautiful girl naked become a rip off? Why is there a NEED for more? Conversely, if that's the case, why did I make triple the money in my air dance club than I did anywhere else, including SR LV? Was it my comfort level? Most importantly, when did everyone stop having FUN at the club?? Now it feels more like a flea market or cattle auction with all the squeezing and haggling.
Tonight I read this guy the riot act because he made one of my girls cry. He told her "Yeah act like you're fucking me!" and "If we were in [another city] I'd be handing you your ass!" and tried to slap her ass. I got in his face and asked him if it made him feel lime a big man to talk like that to a young girl, and he looked embarrassed. I went on to say "Would you say that to me?", and when he said no, I asked "Is it because I'm wearing pants? Because I danced for nine years."
What bothers me is he didn't humanize HER until I asked him that.
Fact of the matter and the point of this anecdote and digression is this: Would you ask a girl you're on a date with to go further than she was ok with? Would you tell your sister to do whatever a guy tells her? How would you feel if that dancer were YOUR sister, cousin, wife, mom, whatever? Think about that- because she's at least one of those things to someone.
I understand you pay for the dance, but the DANCE is what you're paying for: the term lap dance is not synonymous with "free range sexual assault".
bem401
07-30-2011, 06:50 AM
Threads like this make me think for a number of reasons. For one, when did being able to admire a beautiful girl naked become a rip off? Why is there a NEED for more? Conversely, if that's the case, why did I make triple the money in my air dance club than I did anywhere else, including SR LV? Was it my comfort level? Most importantly, when did everyone stop having FUN at the club?? Now it feels more like a flea market or cattle auction with all the squeezing and haggling.
I can understand why you feel the way you do but you're not going to change this sort of thing, IMO. When a guy sees a naked girl, touching her becomes a temptation, and a little contact leads to a desire for greater contact. With fewer guys and less money in the club, some of the girls are going to up the contact to get the money. I think the whole idea of money and contact being the basis of the business is the primary reason the girls I'd become friendly with and I pulled the plug on doing business. We remained friendly, both inside the club and out, but doing dances was history.
mediocrity
07-30-2011, 07:11 AM
I'm actually feeling fairly optimistic in the customer and money dept. Things seem to have improved in the last year.
Bem, I'm certainly not claiming I can change it single handedly, but in my market I'm not the only one pushing for change. This was more of a thought block from a rough night than a battle cry. The whole industry is exhausting.
4everresolutions
07-30-2011, 07:58 AM
I can understand why you feel the way you do but you're not going to change this sort of thing, IMO. When a guy sees a naked girl, touching her becomes a temptation, and a little contact leads to a desire for greater contact. With fewer guys and less money in the club, some of the girls are going to up the contact to get the money. I think the whole idea of money and contact being the basis of the business is the primary reason the girls I'd become friendly with and I pulled the plug on doing business. We remained friendly, both inside the club and out, but doing dances was history.
I get that. And I honestly don't mind contact. It's not pleasurable for me, but I don't run kicking and screaming. What I do mind is;
1)when men treat me as a lesser being
2)Think that because I'm a stripper, that it's okay to do something I EXPLICITLY told them NOT to do (like grab my kitty or squeeze my breasts hard)
3)Asking for something I had already told them I am not willing to do (like the OP is mentioning). If I didn't say whether or not I do it, I don't mind them asking (like foot fetish guys who are shy at first, but want to ask to touch my feet - that's cool with me). But when I already say "You can't touch my breasts - you're being too rough", then it bothers me when they keep asking, or threaten not to pay me if I don't compile.
4)Haggling over prices. ESPECIALLY after the dances are done.
I do sincerely want to make my customer happy, inside my comfort level. I'm aware that $20/song isn't something anyone can afford, and I am grateful for the money I get - even though I feel I'm worth every penny and more. If a guy is good to me, I'll be really good to him. It just PISSES me off when they keep PUSHING AND PUSHING when I say "No". I often feel that the customers are the ones hustling me these days....
bem401
07-30-2011, 04:49 PM
^^ I understand and sympathize with both of you girls and am trying only to be supportive in what I say. The nature of the business has changed around here to the point that most (if not all) of the girls I was friendly with have packed it in. None of them were exactly newbies when I met them almost a decade ago and one of my friends told me she felt working there meant "compromising her dignity" and she was as strict a RI dancer as I ever encountered. While only one of them ever said it, I doubt the rest disagreed with the comment. That certainly changed the way I viewed the impact of my presence there. As I got friendlier with them, the less dances fit into the picture to the point the plug got pulled. It also didn't help to find out we had common acquaintances outside the business or occasions to run into each other or socialize away from the club.
I think you girls might just be getting to the crossroads my friends reached where they found themselves wrestling with whether the money was worth the headaches of the job. Some jumped ship right away. Others worked through it. I hope you make the decision that works best for you. I just doubt you're going to see much change from the clientele.
rickdugan
07-30-2011, 06:19 PM
Bem, these girls are talking about being treated like animals. I'm not sure that saying something to the effect of "if you don't like being treated like that then you should pack it in" is really appropriate. These girls are talking about behavior that is intolerable regardless of what they do for a living.
And on a side note, your dancer friends were working in RI during a time when things were changing dramatically. RI was transitioning from a fairly clean place to one of the dirties SC cities in the country, so your friends' views are understandable. However, even in the clubs in RI - and for that matter even with a flexible girl - nobody should have to tolerate inhumane treatment.
As many around here know, I do a lot of things with a lot of dancers all around the country, but never once have I physically or verbally assaulted a girl, nor have I pushed a girl to do anything that she was uncomfortable with. Regardless of where you are or even what you are doing with a dancer, respect and kindness should always be a given.
A girl should expect to be treated with simple human decency regardless of whether she works as a stripper or a receptionist.
bem401
07-30-2011, 06:39 PM
Bem, these girls are talking about being treated like animals. I'm not sure that saying something to the effect of "if you don't like being treated like that then you should pack it in" is really appropriate. These girls are talking about behavior that is intolerable regardless of what they do for a living.
And on a side note, your dancer friends were working in RI during a time when things were changing dramatically. RI was transitioning from a fairly clean place to one of the dirties SC cities in the country, so your friends' views are understandable. However, even in the clubs in RI - and for that matter even with a flexible girl - nobody should have to tolerate inhumane treatment.
As many around here know, I do a lot of things with a lot of dancers all around the country, but never once have I physically or verbally assaulted a girl, nor have I pushed a girl to do anything that she was uncomfortable with. Regardless of where you are or even what you are doing with a dancer, respect and kindness should always be a given.
A girl should expect to be treated with simple human decency regardless of whether she works as a stripper or a receptionist.
Where did I say anything contrary to your point? I sympathized with their plight and told no one to pack it in.
The point i was making was its a strip club filled with a seemingly ever-increasing percentage of jerks. Blowing off some steam about them is one thing. Expecting to be able to generate an increase in relatively respectful treatment given the nature of the clientele is another. It has very little to do with them (the girls) in the first place. The clubs consist of guys who ranked from sufficiently tolerable to wholly intolerable according my friends. That distribution has been skewing the wrong way for awhile now.
mediocrity
07-30-2011, 08:34 PM
By the way, I'm already retired, have been almost a year. Just working another position in the club.