View Full Version : Hating men
Kellydancer
10-23-2011, 10:47 PM
Once again, I agree with Yoda. It has nothing to do with class warfare but the attitude many men in power have. I'm certainly not against people in high power jobs since my brother is a doctor in the army! Many of my high school and college classmates and friends are now doctors and lawyers. Nothing to do with that at all, just that attitude that some have about strippers.
Happy2BSpoiled
10-23-2011, 10:57 PM
lol....well, if I were you, I'd focus on the cute, young almost naked girls.
That's what I do ;)
FWIW the female dancers (and the fat male ones as well ) are not there strictly for the opposite gender to enjoy. They are there for whoever finds them entertaining, whatever the reason (sex, choreography,they're your cousin, etc.).
:0) True
I guess I just didn't really think about all the guys having dirty thoughts when they looked at them before and now I do. I don't have dirty thoughts when I look at the male dancers. So after dancing I do look at things a little differently now. That was my point.
Happy2BSpoiled
10-23-2011, 11:08 PM
]First, many guys struggle with the concept of their SOs dancing in a club, regardless of their income. The difference, however, is that most dancers with SOs dance because they still need the money. This is simply not the case with a guy making a very large paycheck, so it should come as no surprise that he would have no interest in his SO dancing on or for (or both) other men in a strip club.
Second, many of these guys work in very sensitive environments and if it comes out that they are married to strippers then it could severely fuck up their careers. I can tell you, point blank, that in my last employment, before starting my own company, that it would have created serious - and potentially career ending - problems for me. Now it would not have been a big deal if she had danced before we were married, but if it came out that I was married to a girl who was still stripping then no guy that I had to deal with in my particular space would have taken me seriously. I would have been the pussy who, despite what he was making, had a wife that was crawling on other men for money.
Most industries and/or communities are very small, so it should come as no surprise that guys who are being paid a great deal of money and who are held to higher personal standards as part of those gigs might be a bit cautious in this regard.[/QUOTE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
REGARDING ABOVE QUOTE: (Sorry, don't know how I screwed it up)
I completely agree with a man worried about how it would effect his career if they were married. I personally could not dance if I was involved with someone, although I know other people do. My point is that if they feel that way about their SO it should apply to them going to clubs as well. That is where the double standard takes place.
Also, I have a hard time thinking a person in a career like those would not hold it against someone who had retired, but I could be wrong.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
skwadim
10-24-2011, 05:48 AM
Humans actually don't have instincts. All of our behavior is learned, and any gender differences (not physical) are due to socialization.
I disagree, if someone raised their fist to you, you'd shield yourself. instinctively. That's not learned, it's called survival.
yoda57us
10-24-2011, 05:51 AM
I disagree, if someone raised their fist to you, you'd shield yourself. instinctively. That's not learned, it's called survival.
The first time they raise their fist you would do nothing. After you get hit for the first time you will defend yourself. That is a learned behavior, not instinct.
Hopper
10-24-2011, 06:41 AM
Humans actually don't have instincts. All of our behavior is learned, and any gender differences (not physical) are due to socialization.
Leave an attractive teenage boy and girl alone together naked in a room for a couple of hours with no prior sex ed and I think they would quickly work out what to do. Then you would see some non-socialized behavioral gender differences in action, largely in response to the physical ones.
roast
10-24-2011, 07:27 AM
To answer the original question, I think I expect men to treat me as being lesser so I have an immediate guard up until I feel it can be brought down. I just remain detached & if it feels like it can drop, it does. It is a learned behavior. It is also a reaction to, uh sexism? It is not necessarily because of being a sex worker but Ive been one for awhile so I can't analyze this mindset with any kind of control,right?.
The entitlement is what kills me.
Last week a guy was trying to talk to me a store, I was making a point of ignoring him. Instead of figuring it out and bowing out gracefully he plucked out my earbuds because he could not fathom that Id be disinterested. What did he want that was so urgent? He was telling me to smile. A total stranger in a drugstore. My lack of accessibility was bothering him so much he had follow me and invade my space to get me to pay attention. I mean.... that kind of story is fairly common among a lot women. Never had a woman do that kind of thing - but have tons of stories since puberty of random men doing it. So yea, my guard is up against gender-specific entitlement... this is a kind of dumb example, but the more insidious versions are as irritating... & more importantly not worthy of being vulnerable to.
Only guys who are fairly introspective notice when they're giving in to their socialized entitlement. Sexism is a learned behavior and one we're all taught to give into - but most men Ive met don't notice or care to challenge it. That kind of sheepish behavior gets met with a wall.
Basically I've benefited more from having my guard up than having it down so it stays up. I just don't romanticize men.... which, if I'm not in work mode, bothers guys I meet. Men interpret that as hatred and my handful of guy friends (lol the discussion about straight guy friends in the other thread was helpful btw) joke about me being a feminazi - but it is more me being disinterested. No hatred exactly, just no worship, romanticizing, or excitement. Which may be worse than hatred, idk.
I have healthy relationships with men and have peace with this mindset, so oh well.
EDIT: oop missed this was specific to dancers not ladies in the sex industry overall my bad.
yoda57us
10-24-2011, 07:58 AM
Basically I've benefited more from having my guard up than having it down so it stays up. I just don't romanticize men.... which, if I'm not in work mode, bothers guys I meet. Men interpret that as hatred and my handful of guy friends (lol the discussion about straight guy friends in the other thread was helpful btw) joke about me being a feminazi - but it is more me being disinterested. No hatred exactly, just no worship, romanticizing, or excitement. Which may be worse than hatred, idk.
LOL, for the guys that are annoyed by your disinterest it is much worse. It's very much an ego-based defense mechanism that guys use when they can't get a rise out of a woman. "She must be a lesbian", "she must already be married", "she must hate men" are all very convenient conclusions drawn by some guys when a woman doesn't get all school-girl giddy around them.
CurvySweet
10-24-2011, 10:32 AM
I've been asking myself this question for a long time. My thoughts and feelings towards men have changed alot since doing cam work. I'm glad to say its not got to the point where i hate men. And hopefully it doesn't.
Its just the guys on cam seem to me like how women are portrayed as 'needy' which is a turn off. If only society knew what men are really like. Bottom line: Men are ALL wankers.
lokikola
10-24-2011, 10:34 AM
Leave an attractive teenage boy and girl alone together naked in a room for a couple of hours with no prior sex ed and I think they would quickly work out what to do. Then you would see some non-socialized behavioral gender differences in action, largely in response to the physical ones.
This is wrong. My daughter is a year and a half old. I tested this last night by raising my hand to her face quickly. I did this to see if she was possibly being hit by other children at day care because I saw her getting pushed around (not physically). She didn't even blink. Matter of fact, blinking is also a learned behavior, ask anyone who has raised a baby or is a development specialist.
I do think we have instincts though, the only thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to suppress these instincts.
KS_Stevia
10-24-2011, 06:15 PM
Incatatious implied "more than money" in the sense of being a human being with an emotional history, fears, dreams.. not him being a customer vs prospect. Ie they're revealing more about themselves.
Secondly, while there are parallels between stripping, etc and other sales jobs like cars, houses, etc, whether you or other people admit it or not, there ARE distinct differences based on sexual nature of the "service" being provided. That affects the nature of the "pitch" and the nature of the 'relation'
And do you think that customers give strippers that same level of humanization? Believe me, many don't. Why should the stripper give a shit about the prospects history, fears, or dreams when chances are the cust is not giving her even close to the same consideration.
And plenty of sales people and customers do care for one another, they come to respect each other. But that respect is gained through trust and a mutually beneficial relationship. This is no different in any level of sales, particularly sales that is less "transactional". I care for many of my customers and they love me. Other prospects call me and start barking orders and demands because they don't seem to give a shit that a person is on the line. People have forgotten how to communicate with one another or respect each others autonomy as humans. This is more prevalent in the sex industry, as well as a lot of customer service jobs.
Humans actually don't have instincts. All of our behavior is learned, and any gender differences (not physical) are due to socialization.
Proven untrue. We have instincts, but humans, like most higher primates, are born rather helpless and must learn a lot too.
This is wrong. My daughter is a year and a half old. I tested this last night by raising my hand to her face quickly. I did this to see if she was possibly being hit by other children at day care because I saw her getting pushed around (not physically). She didn't even blink. Matter of fact, blinking is also a learned behavior, ask anyone who has raised a baby or is a development specialist.
I do think we have instincts though, the only thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to suppress these instincts.
Can you site some medical examples. Because when very bright light or fast moving objects come towards even an infants eyes, they blink. Blinking is also used to moisturize the eye and remove particles. I don't have kids though so I don't doubt your knowledge, just curious.
lokikola
10-24-2011, 08:52 PM
I'm sorry, I misspoke. Blinking in response to something coming near her face. My daughter was born 13 weeks premature so we were in an infant development program for her first year. I asked the specialist this and she explained to me that eventually she would know to blink if something was coming near her face/eyes. Lol, it would be very scary/creepy if babies did not blink, EVER.... ayayay.
So I guess my source would be: Minot State University Infant Development Program.
Hopper
10-24-2011, 10:48 PM
This is wrong. My daughter is a year and a half old. I tested this last night by raising my hand to her face quickly. I did this to see if she was possibly being hit by other children at day care because I saw her getting pushed around (not physically). She didn't even blink. Matter of fact, blinking is also a learned behavior, ask anyone who has raised a baby or is a development specialist.
Babies do blink, they just blink at a much slower rate than adults (twice a minute). Maybe you missed your baby blinking because you were blinking more frequently. It's unknown why babies blink less frequently but it is suggested that they simply don't need to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinking#Children
Infants also don't produce tears in their first month. That can't be learned.
I do think we have instincts though, the only thing that sets us apart from animals is the ability to suppress these instincts.
Make up your mind. Basic sexual behavior is not learned. An adolescent male does not learn to make his penis go erect when he sees an attractive girl. Presumably, his instincts are telling him what to do with it.
rickdugan
10-25-2011, 05:18 AM
To be honest my post was really not taking direct aim at rich powerful men who won't marry a dancer. I couldn't care less. That being said, spending money on a dancer while looking down your nose at her is, as far as I'm concerned, arrogant and absurd.
There are many reasons, apart from arrogance or disdain, why a successful guy wouldn't want his wife stripping. I previously enumerated some and I don't think "looking down" on dancers had anything to do with those reasons. The scale tips heavily towards intolerance when the additional household income that might be provided by the dancer really doesn't matter much, but the personal and career exposures do.
I'm not opining on whether it's right, or fair, etc., it just is.
yoda57us
10-25-2011, 05:32 AM
^We are not arguing about the same thing here rick....
I know the reasons why a rich, powerful guy would not want to marry a stripper. Of course, it didn't seem to stop Howard Marshall...
skwadim
10-25-2011, 07:37 AM
My daughter is a year and a half old. I tested this last night by raising my hand to her face quickly.
Sorry this kind of anecdotal test is hardly conclusive of anything. Did you raise your hand in a threatening manner? What gets classified as a threat might be socialized, but once it is classified as a threat, the survival instinct kicks in.
The point is, all of us have a sense of our physical boundaries (and I dont mean this a metaphorical sense, I mean it in a specific physical sense), we instinctively realize we have bodies that need to be protected, defended and maintained.
I was in the delivery room a day after my friend's baby was born. Basically the first day this kid was alive, and he was crying out of hunger. That's a survival instinct, not socialized.
skwadim
10-25-2011, 07:42 AM
And do you think that customers give strippers that same level of humanization? Believe me, many don't. Why should the stripper give a shit about the prospects history, fears, or dreams when chances are the cust is not giving her even close to the same consideration.
I never said strippers should give a shit about anything. In fact thats why I pointed out the irony of her statement.
And plenty of sales people and customers do care for one another, they come to respect each other. But that respect is gained through trust and a mutually beneficial relationship. This is no different in any level of sales, particularly sales that is less "transactional". I care for many of my customers and they love me.
how exactly do you mean 'care' and 'love' in those sentences?
skwadim
10-26-2011, 10:14 AM
"Our interactions (both good and bad) amongst different races/sexes/cultures are inherently a result of nurture, not nature."
Well sure, never said everything was instinct.
JessicaCM
10-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Me personally as a stripper, I don't hate men. I have more male friends than females in fact. I would say that as a stripper, I am definitely more cautious of men and their motives and actions...because honestly we see some of the most disgusting ones on a daily basis. A lot of strippers have had negative experiences with DV, failed relationships...but that's something that A LOT if not ALL women go through at some point in their lives. Some of them do hate men, due to severe emotional issues but some have a love/hate a relationship.