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Pink Chelle
10-04-2011, 04:42 AM
Looks like both the girls and guys can comment here, so I'll chime in.

This thread is very depressing. No matter what age, gender, income level, or education level you are, wouldn't you prefer a significant other who you actually enjoy being with, care for, and who makes you happy? I feel like this thread is focusing on relationships between men and women that amount to little more than an informal version of pay-for-play.

I imagine a lot of people here are very young, so I'll just ask this r hetorical question: would you really want to spend the next 40 years with someone who you selected only based on looks or only based on the size of their bank account? It may seem like a good idea now, but there's only so much sex that can be had, and only so much stuff that can be bought. Eventually you'll have to talk to one another.

Pick a partner who you genuinely like. The rest will take care of itself.

I don't think it is depressing at all.
You best believe, when my bills are paid, and I live in comfort. When I can avoid the harassment of other men in a work place or walking down the street, I really care for the man in my life who has provided that level of comfort for me.
I am very grateful. If I'm not in love, I will love that person. When money is tight, everything looks ugly in a relationship! No, everyone here is not young.

Pink Chelle
10-04-2011, 05:40 AM
I've never heard a woman talk like that except women who are either prostitutes or women who are just too lazy to work. I'm hoping she's just a troll, because if she's not this is sad that some women think like this. Women with this attitude are just as bad as men who think women are below them.

I don't even get that idea that some women have that when they get a relationship they must quit their job. I'm talking women not even married to these guys and don't have kids. It's not the man's responsibility to support a lazy woman just as it's not the woman's responsibility to support a lazy man.

It's called "Old school". And my husbands/men always want a real woman to cook , clean, and good sex. ( You're suppose to be a hooker in the bedroom for your man).
That's why they provide for me, so I can give them quality!
LAZY? When I'm not in a relationship, I do construction. I danced too.
You really think a man of wealth wants his wife/woman doing either? NOPE.
So once again, REAL men are okay with women being after their money. Because I 'm quite able to make my own. But time is money. If a man wants my time, it will cost. I'd be a fool to throw up sheet-rock all day with men, and come home to another man. You're young, you will figure it out one day.

rickdugan
10-04-2011, 07:10 AM
This thread is very depressing. No matter what age, gender, income level, or education level you are, wouldn't you prefer a significant other who you actually enjoy being with, care for, and who makes you happy? I feel like this thread is focusing on relationships between men and women that amount to little more than an informal version of pay-for-play.

I imagine a lot of people here are very young, so I'll just ask this rhetorical question: would you really want to spend the next 40 years with someone who you selected only based on looks or only based on the size of their bank account? It may seem like a good idea now, but there's only so much sex that can be had, and only so much stuff that can be bought. Eventually you'll have to talk to one another.

Pick a partner who you genuinely like. The rest will take care of itself.

Absolutely Keith. Why can't she just look through his poverty and unappealing looks and see the loveable human being inside? ;)

But you are speaking in absolutes. Why would having the ability to earn, or good looks, or both, exclude someone from also being a genuinely good person? In my experience it is the guys who lack either good looks, money, or both that develop the belief that they are simply much nicer than those who are not as lacking (and I'm not talking about you Keith, just making a general observation). Of course, from there they start thinking things like: "if she could only see what I am trully like inside, she'd know how much better I am for her than him." Ah huh. ::)

Why can't a woman be with someone she likes AND who has the ability to provide for his family?

And fwiw, genuine affection does not pay the mortgage on the house that she and the kids live in, or put food on the table, or make the car and school tuition payments, etc. This stuff does not "take care of itself." So while a woman should of course look for a man that she wants to be with, those who know better understand that life issues still need to be dealt with and do not want to spend their later years worrying about money.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

Djoser
10-04-2011, 07:22 AM
It's called "Old school". And my husbands/men always want a real woman to cook , clean, and good sex. ( You're suppose to be a hooker in the bedroom for your man).
That's why they provide for me, so I can give them quality!


They want a slave, then, who also fucks them.

Sorry, not to knock your way of life--it's been that way for thousands of years for most of humanity.

But the fact that it doesn't have to be that way any longer is something that many 'real' men and women are very happy about.

Actually this use of the term 'real' man (or woman) always throws me off a bit. Like this crap with Ashton Dipshit 'Real men don't buy women.'

Real men don't run around trying to tell everyone else how to be a man.

firemaiden04
10-04-2011, 07:27 AM
I cook and clean because I like to do it, not because I'm filling some bullshit gender role. And I like making my own money, because I find a lot of satisfaction in knowing I can provide for myself. My husband didn't marry me because he figured he'd pay all the bills in return for sex and a housewife. He married me because he loves me. He loves that I can cook, and he loves that I like to clean, but he sure as hell didn't marry me because of that. He also loves that I'm smart enough and motivated enough to have a job making more than he makes, whether that's stripping or teaching or whatever. So I don't like the implication that he's not a "real man" for not requiring these things from me, or that I'm not a "real woman" for not requiring him to support me in return for housekeeping and sex. If I'm going to require ANY man to pay for the privilege of being around me, it's going to be a customer at a strip club, not my fucking HUSBAND.

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
It's called "Old school". And my husbands/men always want a real woman to cook , clean, and good sex. ( You're suppose to be a hooker in the bedroom for your man).
That's why they provide for me, so I can give them quality!
LAZY? When I'm not in a relationship, I do construction. I danced too.
You really think a man of wealth wants his wife/woman doing either? NOPE.
So once again, REAL men are okay with women being after their money. Because I 'm quite able to make my own. But time is money. If a man wants my time, it will cost. I'd be a fool to throw up sheet-rock all day with men, and come home to another man. You're young, you will figure it out one day.

Well, I go after a different kind of man, one that believes in equality. I do not cook or clean for men, nor would I want a guy like that. Sure, I'd love a rich man, who wouldn't but those guys are hard to find. Instead I want a man with a decent living who believes in equality. I worked way too hard to be a housewife or cater to him.

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 10:44 AM
Looks like both the girls and guys can comment here, so I'll chime in.

This thread is very depressing. No matter what age, gender, income level, or education level you are, wouldn't you prefer a significant other who you actually enjoy being with, care for, and who makes you happy? I feel like this thread is focusing on relationships between men and women that amount to little more than an informal version of pay-for-play.

I imagine a lot of people here are very young, so I'll just ask this rhetorical question: would you really want to spend the next 40 years with someone who you selected only based on looks or only based on the size of their bank account? It may seem like a good idea now, but there's only so much sex that can be had, and only so much stuff that can be bought. Eventually you'll have to talk to one another.

Pick a partner who you genuinely like. The rest will take care of itself.

When looking to marry I think it's important to look at the whole picture. If I find a man repulsive the chances of him becoming hot are slim. If I am neutral things can happen.

I take a different view of marriage than many. I am looking for a husband but unlike most love plays only a minor part. Would I love to marry a man I love? sure, but I would be happy marrying a man I like. Friendship is the backbone of any relationship and too many people mistake lust for love. I've known many marriages with that hot lust and once it burns out then the marriage is over.

Looks and the bank account can both change, which is why I would not marry based on either. I've known people who got fat and others who lost great jobs. Then what?

dlabtot
10-04-2011, 11:09 AM
I think people take this stuff to extremes.... wanting to go out with someone who has money does not make you a prostitute or a golddigger or a gigilo....geez.... I also would rather go out with a women who is not broke, duh....

Pink Chelle
10-04-2011, 11:21 AM
No I am not a troll, just tired of women settling for so little.
I have been quite happy with the roles I choose.
NO ONE can hold a 9-5 , and strip and wax floors, wash walls etc every week
( I never wanted a housekeeper), on top of cooking from scratch.
This "Slave" has lived quite well, with limo service taking the kids to school, and the nice surprise gifts, trips, and the ability to keep my nails done, instead of torn up from some plastering job. I call this a more than fair exchange.
I would never have a male in my home as I trot off to some strip club to work.
So all together everyone- men truly okay with women being after their money

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 11:27 AM
Ok Ok I understand views on wanting the option. Choice is always nice, However women in the adult industry be it , camming, stripping, porn. phone sex , escorting etc have their jobs because men DON''T view things equally.

If it wasn't for the gender roles we wouldn't have jobs.

Does anyone see this or is it just me? You have men that are paying for your company so you can go home to a man that can't afford to pay? Umm that sounds a bit off.

I hear ooh if he's a customer alot but yet you're home giving it to some guy for free + paying half the rent too? So wow equality really comes across as being pimped out really well.

So wait grind on some man's junk, have someone twisting your nipples and then "Honey I'm home!!! Ohh can you wait an hour before touching me so my body can remember it's not a customer's hands but yours? Ohh and sure I'll make dinner let me just get these 7inch heels off." Then you pull out the great wad of cash and say hey let me pay "OUR" bills!! Seriously?

So we laugh at the customers that pay but go home to someone that refuses too?
I would have to wonder how that man at home would value me as a woman. Does he feel he's getting over because not only is my closet filled with the sexy lingerie , I'm bending over for him too and I'm also paying the bills? So what exactly does he bring to the table? A few good laughs? A meal and some at home movie nights? Darn is my penis on back order because I so feel I should have one with this kinda noise.

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 11:43 AM
I'm now thinking people should appreciate their customers more since apparently they are really helping you keep quite a special man at home there.

LD $25.00
VIP$300.00
Hair $100.00
Nails $75.00
Man at home that will wave you off to go earn half the rent : Priceless!
For everything else use AMERICAN EXPRESS especially at the SC where dreams over "lap"when people get to express "equality".:O

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 11:45 AM
No I am not a troll, just tired of women settling for so little.
I have been quite happy with the roles I choose.
NO ONE can hold a 9-5 , and strip and wax floors, wash walls etc every week
( I never wanted a housekeeper), on top of cooking from scratch.
This "Slave" has lived quite well, with limo service taking the kids to school, and the nice surprise gifts, trips, and the ability to keep my nails done, instead of torn up from some plastering job. I call this a more than fair exchange.
I would never have a male in my home as I trot off to some strip club to work.
So all together everyone- men truly okay with women being after their money

It works for you but doesn't work for everyone. I don't want live a life like that.

However, I do agree with you that women do settle for little. I've seen women who work a full time job (stripping or not)then come home to cook and clean, while the husband doesn't. I had a friend who worked fulltime, her husband didn't work at all, and she came home to cook and clean. None of those are acceptable to me either. When I lived with a guy he cooked and cleaned more than I did though we were both working 40 hours. I would never marry a man who expected me to cook and clean and still work. I would marry a man who expected me to work but expected he would do 50% of the cooking and cleaning.

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 12:08 PM
It works for you but doesn't work for everyone. I don't want live a life like that.

However, I do agree with you that women do settle for little. I've seen women who work a full time job (stripping or not)then come home to cook and clean, while the husband doesn't. I had a friend who worked fulltime, her husband didn't work at all, and she came home to cook and clean. None of those are acceptable to me either. When I lived with a guy he cooked and cleaned more than I did though we were both working 40 hours. I would never marry a man who expected me to cook and clean and still work. I would marry a man who expected me to work but expected he would do 50% of the cooking and cleaning.

Prior to my move to the adult working realm, I did work the regular office tech job. Now I had a bf that worked as well. Not only did he make less then I did but he paid 100% of the rent. I did laundry. He cooked and cleaned. I took care of the pets and some cheap utilities. That's it. He at first thought that 50/50 was going to fly with me. I told him flat out not happening!That's about it. There was no way I was splitting my cash down the middle since he knew women spend more on everything. He enjoyed me shopping and buying things for myself. He did get gifts for the holidays and birthdays that never even came close to what he had as a child.

After I broke up with him (for other things) he ended up with a woman that was rather unattractive. She was a single mother (never married)She paid 50/50 while they shared a room in an apartment in a semi bad neighborhood. He enjoyed the financials but had to spend money on viagra to be able to bend her over. Paper bags are harder to find these days I guess. Ooops maybe that was too much info.

He contacted me every now and again asking me to be with him. He wanted to marry me still.

He later married her for papers because she was desperate enough to agree to that. Within 6 months he didn't even want the papers anymore. He went back to his country after first divorcing her. The End.

Now I really thought this woman was perfect for him initially. So she wasn't super hot but she was apparently financially giving right? Guess what ... He didn't value her! Hmm I wonder why?

Morale of the Story. 50/50 didn't make him respect her if anything he found her to be quite dumb and easy. He got what he wanted and bounced on her. Hmm

Bottom Line : YOU DESERVE BETTER! MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THAT AND HE DOES TOO! IF YOUR CUSTOMERS VALUE YOU, WOULD THEY SPEND IF THEY FELT YOU DIDN'T VALUE YOURSELF?

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 12:23 PM
If he made less he should be doing more chores, that's how I look at it. I just don't think that women if they make more should spend less on bills. Every situation is different but if I make more than a husband I will expect him to do more chores around the houses.

Customers values dancers because they are a fantasy. The guy in the real life knows the real woman. Big difference. I don't want a man to treat me like a customer, why would I? I don't believe in bringing work home.

lemiwinks31
10-04-2011, 12:30 PM
Alot of these different points of view may come down to cultural differences. Pink Chelle's arrangements seems to be kind of middle eastern. Man is responsible for providing for the family and nothing else. Women is responsible for taking care of the household, pleasing her man when he demands, and to look nice in case he ever feels like taking her out in public. Doesnt matter if they love or even like each other, just more of a working living arrangement. Maybe even an arranged marriage.

While this seems like a horrible situation for most western women who want a say in what they do, for their opinions to matter in the relationship, and to have a loving, mutually respectful relationship........Its common in many parts of the world.

Pink Chelle
10-04-2011, 12:36 PM
Alot of these different points of view may come down to cultural differences. Pink Chelle's arrangements seems to be kind of middle eastern. Man is responsible for providing for the family and nothing else. Women is responsible for taking care of the household, pleasing her man when he demands, and to look nice in case he ever feels like taking her out in public. Doesnt matter if they love or even like each other, just more of a working living arrangement. Maybe even an arranged marriage.

While this seems like a horrible situation for most western women who want a say in what they do, for their opinions to matter in the relationship, and to have a loving, mutually respectful relationship........Its common in many parts of the world.

No true New Yorker

The Six
10-04-2011, 01:04 PM
This iz all I noe about real men rite here REAL talk- http://twitter.com/#!/beezyy_babyy/status/121310786151923712

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 01:12 PM
If he made less he should be doing more chores, that's how I look at it. I just don't think that women if they make more should spend less on bills. Every situation is different but if I make more than a husband I will expect him to do more chores around the houses.

Customers values dancers because they are a fantasy. The guy in the real life knows the real woman. Big difference. I don't want a man to treat me like a customer, why would I? I don't believe in bringing work home.

Customers value dancers not because they are a fantasy but because they are hot women that are naked. That for $20-25 bucks they can have this woman stick her boobs in their face and grind. Remember High Contact clubs are the norm now. So he's getting to touch all over this woman while she tries to swat his hand away hoping she can get the next 20-25 before he makes another unwanted move.

Because of this many women in the industry refuse taking any financial from men in real life because it feels too much like "work". So the guy that understands this enjoys the benefits of doing little and getting alot. He's just benefiting from the long term psychological effects of the adult industry. Women that already got this mind game still expect their man to come with something.

The funny thing is that when it comes to attractive women, men generally will have no problems with paying in the SC or in RL. The problem that these same women run into is having to deal with their beauty always having a price. So in efforts to go against the grain , they will refuse financials, tell men money is not important and give these same men everything for free. In this way she thinks she's empowering herself to make her own decisions and that she controls her future blah blah etc. The real woman is still behind the hot face and body. A guy will see this first and foremost and typically is the reason why he's into you in the first place.

Let's not forget the guys that come to the club that nurse that warm beer all night, not tipping and not getting dances yet they still see you naked too. So they are not customers either and they are not boyfriends. Some dancers have boyfriends that fit this description perfectly but also get the benefit of getting some bills paid and some bend over action.

Then we have the ugly guy that hates that attractive women can't see his wonderful insides yet he's the one attracted to attractive women. "if only they could see the real me under these never ending folds". And she's saying the same because she's tired of it all being about her looks. We value what we value and that's not going to change. Well atleast not anytime soon.

One man said to me awhile ago that women that are attractive are sometime easier to bend over and pimp out then an ugly woman. It simply goes that they tend to try to prove that they don't need or want money based on their looks.

Why do men say that attractive women are horrible lays? Generally because attractive women will have no issues attracting a man that wants to bend them over. He's not going in to make the experience long and lasting and memorable. It's just a notch on his belt to say "yeah I hit that". Now reverse that to an ugly woman. Generally a man doesn't want to bend over an ugly woman but if he does then she's going to put in extra work for the simple fact that SHE WANTS TO BE REMEMBERED. He also will not be bragging about how great the sex was for he doesn't even want anyone to know he stuck his c*** in that.

Yet again we can get back to why we make money in this industry and why men pay . Equality? I think not. When you see male strip clubs number the same as female strip clubs then maybe you'll have something there.

But
It's
Not
Like
That.

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 01:29 PM
I had a friend who was butt ugly and was a slut so no I don't agree that attractive women are more open to having sex.

I am attractive but can see right through men that only are attracted because of that. Sure I could take advantage but why would I? Instead I ignore them. Looks are fleeting and as you get older you will meet men who aren't as looks driven.

rickdugan
10-04-2011, 01:50 PM
There have been a lot of opinions on both ends of the spectrum, but I sit somewhere closer to the middle. When there are no kids involved then I tend to believe that she should be doing something more productive than simply minding the homefront. After all, there is really only so much that needs to be done in a house with no kids messing it up. Where the rubber meets the road, however, is when children come in to play.

What happens if the mother can't work for several months because of the pregnancy? What if there are pregnancy complications? Once the child is born, what if she wants to nurse the child? What if she wants to be an at-home mom in order to provide the child with security and so that she can be in charge of what the child is learning? If she is with a guy who can't earn, she is SOL on all counts and has virtually no options. Everyone loses, except of course for the lazy bastard who won't step up to provide for his family.

We saw a real life example of this front and center with a recent pink member of this board who's story was recently aired on tv. I'm not going to cross post, but if you watch the special you just can't help but wonder:, "Why doesn't he just get his ass out there and earn enough to fix these issues?" She couldn't work and, apparently, neither could he, though of course he was not a pregnant dancer.

And the icing on the cake was his response to all of this, which was: "She needs to get back to dancing quickly after she gives birth so that we can pay the bills." It was a sad situation.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 02:07 PM
With regards to the nursing part, I know plenty of women who nursed and worked full time. How they did it is breastfeed until they went back to work 6 or 8 weeks later then switched to bottles with breast milk. I also know several women who exclusively pumped from day one then there was no problems once she went back to work. As for pregnancy complications, this is why it's important for women to have a backup in the event she can't go back to work right away. Most companies I worked at had 3 months paid leave for BOTH parents and an additional 3 months unpaid leave because of FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act). However I am of the belief that both people need to be involved with the kids from the get go and too often this is not the case. Way too many women have kids with men who don't stick around or expect her to do all the work. If a woman (or for that matter a man)decides to stay at home it should be discussed with both people. Personally, I believe that the person who makes less should be the better choice to stay at home regardless of gender. I also believe that couples need to set aside money before a birth in the event someone wants to stay at home. However it's important to realize that might work for someone may not work for others. Some people I know wanted to stay at home and the other parent was a successful career person. I know stay at home moms, stay at home dads, working parents, single parents, and everything else.

I like the poster you reference as does most here, but sadly I see way too many dancers in that situation. She's way too good to be with a guy like that

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 04:03 PM
I had a friend who was butt ugly and was a slut so no I don't agree that attractive women are more open to having sex.

I am attractive but can see right through men that only are attracted because of that. Sure I could take advantage but why would I? Instead I ignore them. Looks are fleeting and as you get older you will meet men who aren't as looks driven.

I didn't say attractive women are more open to having sex.

cherryblossomsinspring
10-04-2011, 04:07 PM
There have been a lot of opinions on both ends of the spectrum, but I sit somewhere closer to the middle. When there are no kids involved then I tend to believe that she should be doing something more productive than simply minding the homefront. After all, there is really only so much that needs to be done in a house with no kids messing it up. Where the rubber meets the road, however, is when children come in to play.

What happens if the mother can't work for several months because of the pregnancy? What if there are pregnancy complications? Once the child is born, what if she wants to nurse the child? What if she wants to be an at-home mom in order to provide the child with security and so that she can be in charge of what the child is learning? If she is with a guy who can't earn, she is SOL on all counts and has virtually no options. Everyone loses, except of course for the lazy bastard who won't step up to provide for his family.

We saw a real life example of this front and center with a recent pink member of this board who's story was recently aired on tv. I'm not going to cross post, but if you watch the special you just can't help but wonder:, "Why doesn't he just get his ass out there and earn enough to fix these issues?" She couldn't work and, apparently, neither could he, though of course he was not a pregnant dancer.

And the icing on the cake was his response to all of this, which was: "She needs to get back to dancing quickly after she gives birth so that we can pay the bills." It was a sad situation.

Anyway, just my :twocents:


Ohh no wow this all kinds of wrong. So please tell me she dumped him. I mean he's not doing a damn thing then what good is he? She would do better to save the food in her home for her and her child's mouth. This guy is just disgusting.

rickdugan
10-04-2011, 04:12 PM
Kelly, there aren't too many couples that can absorb multi-month, complete paycheck losses, and if the mother cannot work for medical or other reasons, including if she goes on unpaid leave, then it falls to the Dad to do so. And yes, a woman should indeed have a "backup" source of income - it is called a useful husband. ;)

As far as the other stuff is concerned, our views differ and that is fine. Pumping enough to feed a baby for 8 hours a day while she is gone PLUS retain enough to feed the other 16 hours is not common - most of these mothers quickly say screw it and switch to formula. Also, we will have to agree to disagree about how well the Daddy-at-home thing works out in some households - I know a couple of examples of it and the ones I see are less than ideal, but you may see different examples.

The point is that if the guy is useless, then the mother has no choices and is screwed if she has a hard pregnancy, medical complications, or simply has a change of heart once the child is born. And all of these things happen. Some women are ok with taking their chances and that is fine, but others like the security of knowing that they have a husband that can step up and take care of business if any of those things come up - and frankly who can blame them.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

rickdugan
10-04-2011, 04:14 PM
Ohh no wow this all kinds of wrong. So please tell me she dumped him. I mean he's not doing a damn thing then what good is he? She would do better to save the food in her home for her and her child's mouth. This guy is just disgusting.

At least as-of her last posting on the topic, she indicated that she was leaving him, but I don't know if that is still the case and she has deleted that post since. Anyway, I want to be careful about how much more I say as it is not my place to tell the story, but I hope that she does.

zivlet
10-04-2011, 04:28 PM
Okay, I've been out with VERY rich guys. I've only ever fallen in love with the povs, though. Something about me wants to be the one who 'looks after' it's in my nature and I don't know why.

Nowadays, Ive noticed something about me. I will now, only date and only ever give myself (You know what I mean) to guys who have money. They don't have to be loaded, they don't have to be flash-I'm not that kind of girl. I'm not materialistic, my clothes are mostly second hand, I'm a vegan anti-consumerism bitch.

I don't want fancy things-I thnk it's more romantic to stroke someone's hair as they fall asleep, or tidy the house because they're tired, or hold their hair back as they chuck up from drinking too much (!) than it is to throw gold at them.

But, I want a guy with money. I won't cheapen myself again.That guy who loves me enough to put his d*ck in me, has to know that he has to be there to help me if I need it, financially.

Also-I want a guy to have enough pride to have made his way in the world , however he's done it. It's not about the £s, per se, I spent a fortune on my last one, don't regret any of it I adored him, but, it's about somebody having their own mind, wanting to provide for HIMSELF and making his own way in the world, much as I hate capitalism, it's the way-he has to be successful enough to be able to buy me things, even if I don't want to accept them and he has to respect me enough to want to buy me things or take me away and NOT sponge off me. I want a guy who thinks it's WRONG for a girl to buy the wine for a night in, or to offer to take him out-I will happily take a male friend out, but nobody who has taken money off me, will ever get anything sexual or intimate from me now-they have to have taken me out. Does this make me a bitch? No. It just means I know my worth as a woman, and as a dancer, as a girl who knows I have 'It' and guys will pay for me, so why should I pay for them?!
Does this make any sense at all? Probs not.Lol

Pink Chelle
10-04-2011, 04:29 PM
There have been a lot of opinions on both ends of the spectrum, but I sit somewhere closer to the middle. When there are no kids involved then I tend to believe that she should be doing something more productive than simply minding the homefront. After all, there is really only so much that needs to be done in a house with no kids messing it up. Where the rubber meets the road, however, is when children come in to play.

I'm retired. I go to the gym, shop, get my nails/hair done, advocate in my community, online classes, and shop some more.

lokikola
10-04-2011, 06:35 PM
No I am not a troll, just tired of women settling for so little.
I have been quite happy with the roles I choose.
NO ONE can hold a 9-5 , and strip and wax floors, wash walls etc every week
( I never wanted a housekeeper), on top of cooking from scratch.
This "Slave" has lived quite well, with limo service taking the kids to school, and the nice surprise gifts, trips, and the ability to keep my nails done, instead of torn up from some plastering job. I call this a more than fair exchange.
I would never have a male in my home as I trot off to some strip club to work.
So all together everyone- men truly okay with women being after their money


I don't even get why you're on SW if this is your thoughts on strippers.

There are a lot of women who are strippers, and can manage everything mentioned in your rambling paragraphs. If you can't hold down a job while cooking, cleaning, and fucking that is your problem. A lot of us can do all of the above.

Talk about women settling, you're settling for being a slave just so you can have your kids go to school in a 'limo' and get your nails done once a week.

yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you're not going to convince everyone here that your way of 'life' is the absolute best and that we're idiots for working.

KeithDoxen
10-04-2011, 06:46 PM
Absolutely Keith. Why can't she just look through his poverty and unappealing looks and see the loveable human being inside? ;)

Why can't a woman be with someone she likes AND who has the ability to provide for his family?

And fwiw, genuine affection does not pay the mortgage on the house that she and the kids live in, or put food on the table, or make the car and school tuition payments, etc. This stuff does not "take care of itself."

To be sure, I wasn't trying to create a false dichotomy, where a guy is either handsome and successful, or someone with a good heart. I agree that that's the thinking of someone who doesn't have anything else to offer and is thus trying to convince himself that it's his big heart that's made him broke (LOL).

My point was just that people of both sexes should think about the fact that they're going to have to get along with the person that they choose as a life partner, so that they should add that to the equation when they're making such a choice. Of course looks and/or money will probably be a part of the equation as well. Most guys are going to want a woman they're attracted to physically, and most girls are going to want a man who can at least provide for them while they're going through labor with his child. I just think that for an LTR to work out in the long run there also has to be a meeting of the minds when it comes to little things like personality, sense of humor, etc. Things that will make the couple stay together even when looks fade or when money gets tight.

Kellydancer
10-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Kelly, there aren't too many couples that can absorb multi-month, complete paycheck losses, and if the mother cannot work for medical or other reasons, including if she goes on unpaid leave, then it falls to the Dad to do so. And yes, a woman should indeed have a "backup" source of income - it is called a useful husband. ;)

As far as the other stuff is concerned, our views differ and that is fine. Pumping enough to feed a baby for 8 hours a day while she is gone PLUS retain enough to feed the other 16 hours is not common - most of these mothers quickly say screw it and switch to formula. Also, we will have to agree to disagree about how well the Daddy-at-home thing works out in some households - I know a couple of examples of it and the ones I see are less than ideal, but you may see different examples.

The point is that if the guy is useless, then the mother has no choices and is screwed if she has a hard pregnancy, medical complications, or simply has a change of heart once the child is born. And all of these things happen. Some women are ok with taking their chances and that is fine, but others like the security of knowing that they have a husband that can step up and take care of business if any of those things come up - and frankly who can blame them.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

I have probably seen different situations than you, but majority of the women I know work and always have. In Illinois you need two paychecks to support a household. Personally, I couldn't give up a career to stay at home for many reasons, including that one always needs security moneywise. In this economy the stay at home parents I know were all pushed back into the work force and because they are unskilled professionally all they could find were low level jobs. I suppose this is good if they can do with this money, but if they need more money they are screwed. I have a friend getting a divorce because her husband cheated and if she was a stay at home mom she'd have to accept it. She briefly considered staying at home but is glad she did.

I've seen stay at home dads who worked hard and others who were lazy, just like I saw with moms. I think in this society we put housewives and career men on pedestals while career moms and stay at home dads are attacked. I think this is wrong and society should look at a case by case situation. Not all moms want to stay at home, and not all dads want to work 3 jobs so the women can stay at home. However, I do feel PARENTS (not just moms)do need to make sacrifices once they become parents, and that is probably not working 60+ hours. My parents worked 40 hours growing up and were home by around 5pm or so. Of course I think working those many hours is silly regardless if one is a parent or not.

Btw, I had this friend and we would argue about this. He was a chauvinist (he would tell me he was proud of this)who believed women were below him for religious reasons (he's a fundie). He wanted to date me but because I would not be submissive to him and be a housewife he got mad. He did find what he wanted but I don't think he's happy. She's very ugly and fat and definitely a double bagger. He still contacts me periodically and I know he regrets marrying her. However I sit back and laugh. I'm not saying that being a housewife is submissive, I am saying his wife is submissive because she has no rights in the house. The house is in his name and so is the car. She has to ask for money. She has to get PERMISSION to do anything.

Pink Chelle
10-05-2011, 05:24 AM
I don't even get why you're on SW if this is your thoughts on strippers.

There are a lot of women who are strippers, and can manage everything mentioned in your rambling paragraphs. If you can't hold down a job while cooking, cleaning, and fucking that is your problem. A lot of us can do all of the above.

Talk about women settling, you're settling for being a slave just so you can have your kids go to school in a 'limo' and get your nails done once a week.

yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you're not going to convince everyone here that your way of 'life' is the absolute best and that we're idiots for working.

My thoughts on strippers? What the hell are you reading?
I was a stripper! I was a construction worker too.
If my life should change tomorrow, I would go back to work.
I would not have a man in my life as long as I did. I would not have time for one.

Where is the confusion?

lemiwinks31
10-05-2011, 09:51 AM
I'm retired. I go to the gym, shop, get my nails/hair done, advocate in my community, online classes, and shop some more.


I like to spend time with my wife who i love deeply. We hang out on the patio & have some drinks, go out to dinner, chill out with the kids, go to the kids events, vacation with the kids and and sometimes without, visit family......

To each his(or her own)

lemiwinks31
10-05-2011, 09:56 AM
I have probably seen different situations than you, but majority of the women I know work and always have. In Illinois you need two paychecks to support a household.

No you dont. My wife gave up her career when we had kids...She(and I) thought that it was far more important to raise the kids rather than have a nanny or day care providers do it. I know its not an option for everyone, but since it was for us, it was a complete no brainer.

Kellydancer
10-05-2011, 10:57 AM
No you dont. My wife gave up her career when we had kids...She(and I) thought that it was far more important to raise the kids rather than have a nanny or day care providers do it. I know its not an option for everyone, but since it was for us, it was a complete no brainer.

The people I do certainly do need two paychecks. I'm not talking anything luxurious, just things like a house, which is expensive. The upper management people might get by, but since I am not in that bracket and most will never be. Besides, what's wrong with child care if one gets a good one? I'm tired of this outdated idea that the childcare person is raising the kids, the parents are, the childcare is during the day. I always laugh at the trash that has only one person working while they can't afford their bills. If both people work they could. These people make it rough for all of us.

Men that think the woman should give up her career are what's wrong with society. I am not saying this is your feeling, but too many men believe this. I despise these types of men and literally slapped one when he told me mothers should give up their careers. I worked hard to get where I am, no way would I give it up for a child. Also, these women who give up good careers make it rough for women like me who need to work. I am tired of employers telling me that they don't hire women because of the women who give up good careers to stay at home.

Then again since I'm planning to be a single mom I will never deal with this.

rickdugan
10-05-2011, 06:36 PM
The people I do certainly do need two paychecks. I'm not talking anything luxurious, just things like a house, which is expensive. The upper management people might get by, but since I am not in that bracket and most will never be. Besides, what's wrong with child care if one gets a good one? I'm tired of this outdated idea that the childcare person is raising the kids, the parents are, the childcare is during the day. I always laugh at the trash that has only one person working while they can't afford their bills. If both people work they could. These people make it rough for all of us.

Men that think the woman should give up her career are what's wrong with society. I am not saying this is your feeling, but too many men believe this. I despise these types of men and literally slapped one when he told me mothers should give up their careers. I worked hard to get where I am, no way would I give it up for a child. Also, these women who give up good careers make it rough for women like me who need to work. I am tired of employers telling me that they don't hire women because of the women who give up good careers to stay at home.

Then again since I'm planning to be a single mom I will never deal with this.

Idk, but the statment above that I bolded probably says everything that needs to be said regarding your position on this.

Like lemi, perhaps I am just lucky. Between owning my own business and working in a highly specialized area, we can live on one income and have actually been very fortunate in a number of way, including our home, the kids' schools, college savings, etc.. And, of course, I work insane hours and consider it the price I pay to provide that stuff. But if it were necessary, I would gladly take a standard of living hit in order to keep their Mommy home with them. It is hard to describe what a difference it makes vs. those kids that are shoved into daycare - you would have to see the behavioral differences to understand.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

Kellydancer
10-05-2011, 08:41 PM
Idk, but the statment above that I bolded probably says everything that needs to be said regarding your position on this.

Like lemi, perhaps I am just lucky. Between owning my own business and working in a highly specialized area, we can live on one income and have actually been very fortunate in a number of way, including our home, the kids' schools, college savings, etc.. And, of course, I work insane hours and consider it the price I pay to provide that stuff. But if it were necessary, I would gladly take a standard of living hit in order to keep their Mommy home with them. It is hard to describe what a difference it makes vs. those kids that are shoved into daycare - you would have to see the behavioral differences to understand.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

But why should it be the MOM who gives up her career? What if she is the one with the more education and experience? For instance say she is married to a teacher and she is a doctor? If anyone gives up a career it should be the one making less over the more qualified one. Why anyone would think it shoud be the mom giving up the career no matter what makes me sick. Guess what? when a career woman gives up her career ALL women pay the price because employers often don't want to employ women because of it. Yep I have had employers tell me they don't like to hire women because of it, except women that don't want kids or women too old or too young to be a mother. I don't care that a woman or a man stays at home but this idea that it's best that the MOTHER does is a sick reminder of the 50's when women weren't treated as equals.

And no I haven't seen a difference between the two. Actually, the stay at home moms I know are lazy and their kids are far worse than those in childcare.

Not to mention financial. With women who give up their careers they are dependent on their husband. What if he leaves her or cheats on her or is abusive then what? She either leaves (and often depends on welfare which becomes my responsibility)or stays and endures it. Not to mention retirement. Many of these women will not have a standard for retirement which could be a problem.

No thanks, I am happy being a career woman and in the event I will be a career mom. My kids will be behaved because I believe in discipline to a T. Just because I will work doesn't mean my kids will act like brats. Luckily I have relatives who do childcare and I work in a field that does not require more than a 40 hour week. I do think it's a disgrace when one parent works 60+ hours so one parent can stay at home. That is probably the worst thing because then the kid isn't able to spend as much time with the working parent.

I don't care if someone stays at home but people need to realize that it's not always the best choice for all mothers. Many mothers are better mothers working or having the choice to work. Plus with a 50% divorce rate this is a gamble that not everyone can or is willing to make. Several friends of mine were stay at home wives and they regret it because they ended up broke and alone. One left when her husband cheated on her. Then again I would dump a man at the first sign of him thinking that I should stay at home and only date men like me.

firemaiden04
10-06-2011, 03:06 AM
^ I wish you wouldn't be so bitter about this idea. You seem to have this really negative idea about marriage, like it's always the husband vs. the wife, and it's a constant battle for superiority. Not all husbands are cheating on their wives and leaving them broke and alone, and not all wives are being forced to give up their careers for some sexist ideal. Your idea that you've got to always be on your guard because if you decide to be a stay-at-home mom you'll get fucked over by your husband is rather abrasive and confrontational. I've honestly never dated a guy who expected me to fill this weird, dated stereotype of stay-at-home mom...in fact, it's usually been quite the opposite.

Kellydancer
10-06-2011, 10:45 AM
^ I wish you wouldn't be so bitter about this idea. You seem to have this really negative idea about marriage, like it's always the husband vs. the wife, and it's a constant battle for superiority. Not all husbands are cheating on their wives and leaving them broke and alone, and not all wives are being forced to give up their careers for some sexist ideal. Your idea that you've got to always be on your guard because if you decide to be a stay-at-home mom you'll get fucked over by your husband is rather abrasive and confrontational. I've honestly never dated a guy who expected me to fill this weird, dated stereotype of stay-at-home mom...in fact, it's usually been quite the opposite.

The reality is 50% of all marriages break up so a woman needs to protect herself financially. I couldn't begin to mention all the women I know who gave up careers only to fall on hard times, between cheating husbands, abuse, being dumped, or just plain miserable. Oh sure some love the role, but those forced into it often resent it. I firmly believe that it comes down to what the woman wants. If she chooses to be a housewife, fine but she has to have money in the event she does divorce. Right now I have a friend going through a divorce who was a housewife and she is unable to find a job. She was a secretary but because she didn't keep up with technology she is unemployable. So instead she got a job as a cashier because that's all that will hire her.

I'm not bitter but I do think of marriage as a financial situation because that really what it is. I hope to marry but not to a man who I love, but rather one with shared values. However I will never trust him when it comes to financial situations because I am a realist.

No I don't think most guys believe a woman should give up her career. I think some do and these guys disturb me. A friend of mine was of this belief and he used to use the bible to justify his views. He also believed women were always submissive to men and this is why we never dated. When I date a man I always bring up this view right away before we get serious. If he is looking for a housewife then I know we can't go further.

rickdugan
10-06-2011, 10:58 AM
But why should it be the MOM who gives up her career? What if she is the one with the more education and experience? For instance say she is married to a teacher and she is a doctor? If anyone gives up a career it should be the one making less over the more qualified one.

You don't really believe this because you have admitted that you do everything humanly possible to make sure that YOU are not the one making less in a relationship and have stated that you will never stay home with the kids. In fact, you've made it pretty clear that you've actually avoided succesful guys due to their potential expectations regarding their future spouses. I won't pretend to completely understand this, particularly given your own well documented job difficulties around here, but it's obviously your life. But it makes me really question whether kids are the right choice for you at all.



My kids will be behaved because I believe in discipline to a T.

You'd better hope that your future husband and daycare providers do too, because they are the ones who are going to be administering most of the discipline - or not as the case may be. ;) Young children sleep 10+ hours per day, so if you are going to be gone from them for 9 or more daytime hours, including commute time, then you're not going to see them much.



Plus with a 50% divorce rate this is a gamble that not everyone can or is willing to make. Several friends of mine were stay at home wives and they regret it because they ended up broke and alone. One left when her husband cheated on her. Then again I would dump a man at the first sign of him thinking that I should stay at home and only date men like me


That is what alimony and child support are for, which though not perfect solutions, are designed to help bridge the gap. Besides, a marriage is supposed to be a partnership where two people build something together and if one partner is acting in protective self interest because she might eventually divorce him then the marriage is going to be dysfunctional and you might as well not bother getting married.



No thanks, I am happy being a career woman and in the event I will be a career mom

Cool, but this and all of these other comments make me wonder why you place so much of your self worth upon what you do for work. Idk, but I work to live, not live to work. Self worth should come from who one is as a person, not what one does for a living. Needing to work full time in your chosen profession so badly that you become downright manic when anyone suggests otherwise is a little unhealthy IMHO. Anyway, just something to consider...

Kellydancer
10-06-2011, 11:20 AM
You don't really believe this because you have admitted that you do everything humanly possible to make sure that YOU are not the one making less in a relationship and have stated that you will never stay home with the kids. In fact, you've made it pretty clear that you've actually avoided succesful guys due to their potential expectations regarding their future spouses. While I won't pretend to completely understand this, particularly given your own well documented job difficulties around here, but it's obviously your life. But it makes me really question whether kids are the right choice for you at all.

You are aware there is a recession and MANY people are unemployed or underemployed right? Or do you live under this idea that there are jobs out there, which is a complete lie. Yes I've had financial difficulties, so what? Many are losing their homes due to the economy. I wouldn't avoid men that make more, but rather men that make more and expect their careers to come first. Workaholics in general annoy me.

Why wouldn't kids be a good choice for me, because I wouldn't stay home? Most women can't or don't now. Besides, a happy kid depends on happy parents and if a woman is miserable at home the kid will suffer.



You'd better hope that your future husband and daycare providers do too, because they are the ones who are going to be administering most of the discipline - or not as the case may be. ;) Young children sleep 10+ hours per day, so if you are going to be gone from them for 9 or more daytime hours, including commute time, then you're not going to see them much.

Same can be said with men too. If they are sleeping then they don't need a parent with them. No I wouldn't marry a man who didn't believe in discipline. My parents have said they would babysit and depending on who I marry his parents might also be a possibility.


That is what alimony and child support are for, which though not perfect solutions, are designed to help bridge the gap. Besides, a marriage is supposed to be a partnership where two people build something together and if one partner is acting in protective self interest because she might eventually divorce him then the marriage is going to be dysfunctional and you might as well not bother getting married.

Marriage has a 50% divorce rate. I don't think you are the right person to claim that marriage is so terrific considering you brag about cheating on your wife. If I found out my husband cheated that would end the marriage.



Cool, but this and all of these other comments make me wonder why you place so much of your self worth upon what you do for work. Idk, but I work to live, not live to work. Self worth should come from what one is as a person, not what one does for a living. Needing to work full time in your chosen profession so badly that you become downright manic when anyone suggests otherwise is a little unhealthy IMHO. Anyway, just something to consider...

I love paying my bills. I bet if a man said the same thing that I did about being into working and not willing to give it up no one would say he'd make a bad dad. On the contrary, people would attack him if he decided to give up his career and stay at home. I happen to love working.

And another thing. Just because this may work for YOU doesn't mean it works for everyone. This whole idea that it's best for a woman to stay at home is utter sexist bullshit. I could mention many cases I personally know of women who resented pushed into the role including my mother. She loved being a mother but hated staying at home and giving up her career. She was miserable and did go back to work which made me and my brother happier. I've spoken to several 50's housewives about this and many were on drugs or screwing around with other people. Many kids are much better off in daycare and learn to relate to other kids.

lemiwinks31
10-06-2011, 11:26 AM
Anyway, just something to consider...


wait, I'm confused....is this just your :twocents:, or is it something to consider? or both? :)


agree completely with your post.

rickdugan
10-06-2011, 01:33 PM
Kelly, don't you see the inconsistencies in your approach? You have, for the most part, avidly avoided guys with succesful careers who might actually be able to provide a good life for you and your future children, yet you yourself have struggled with money for quite some time. You sometimes say you want children, yet other times you say that you could only do so if the father was more nurturing than you and you are miserable even at the thought of actually taking care of them. Because of these issues, your ideal guy ended up being one who is so unstable that he really can't even take care of himself, nevermind anyone else. Did you really want that guy to be the father of your kids?

In terms of your references to my marriage, you don't know everything about the Dugan household and I never claimed that marriage is "terrific", or at least not all the time. But it is is about commitment to making it work, particularly when there are children involved. Whatever else I do, my family is my top priority in life and everything else is second.

And your statement about kids being happy when parents are happy is an old and nonsensical fallacy. You 1 month old child doesn't give a shit about how you feel. All it wants is to eat, poop, be held and to hear the heartbeat that it heard when it was in the womb.

Idk, but all of this really makes me believe that you really aren't in the married with children frame of mind yet. IMHO your focus is still very much on Numero Uno. Hey, that's fine, but in that case it may be better if you didn't bring a baby into an impovershed household with a mother who really doesn't want it and a father who's primary qualification for the job was that he was too weak and useless to be a threat to the mother's career aspirations.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

Kellydancer
10-06-2011, 01:46 PM
So what if I don't want a man to financially support me? This isn't the 50's and you need to get out of them. Not all moms are the more nurturing. Besides why would I want a chauvinist pig? No thanks. SO WHAT IF I'VE HAD FINANCIAL PROBLEMS THE ECONOMY IS FUCKED UP! Am I clear enough for you? Don't you read the papers? There is a huge unemployment rate. Besides, what if I married a guy with a great job and he lost it then what? THERE AREN'T ENOUGH JOBS. Just because you seem to have lots of money doesn't mean everyone does. So what if I want kids and do not want to stay at home with them? I have a Masters, I didn't earn it to stay at home with kids or wait on some slob. Nope. However, I still have the right to have kids and if I don't meet a man I like I'll have them on my own through adoption. I do not plan to give birth unless the father is just as much involved. Otherwise I will adopt instead or possibly give birth as a single mom (less likely).

Actually, I hope I met a chauvinist pig so I can take him for a ride. Maybe marry him them dump him and not let him see kids. I like this idea because he will get what he deserves. I love when women take these guys for a ride.

I'm going to ignore your attacks. However, all I can say is if your wife finds out about your cheating you may find that you were wrong about what you said. I don't think a cheating adulterer has any right to judge my views.

Men that expect their wives to give up their career are vile and I hate them. Last guy who suggested I quit working found himself with a broken nose.

And yes I want my exboyfriend to be the father of my kids because he is no chauvinist and is a nurturing guy. That's the kind of guy I want. He could have stayed at home and I would work. Rather him than a chauvinist pig sexist who thinks because he's the man he has the right to keep working.


And your statement about kids being happy when parents are happy is an old and nonsensical fallacy. You 1 month old child doesn't give a shit about how you feel. All it wants is to eat, poop, be held and to hear the heartbeat that it heard when it was in the womb.

Oh you are a baby whisperer too! How in the hell do you know a baby wants to hear the mother's heartbeat? What if the mother put the baby up for adoption? But yes babies and kids definitely pick up if a parent is miserable. Read about all the housewives in the 50's who were miserable.

rickdugan
10-06-2011, 02:23 PM
Oh you are a baby whisperer too! How in the hell do you know a baby wants to hear the mother's heartbeat?

Because I have them. :) And fwiw it's actually fairly common knowledge, at least among those mothers who hold their babies when they are newborns and see how they calm down when they lay with their heads against their mothers' chests.



I'm going to ignore your attacks.

I wasn't attacking you, but rather simply trying to understand where you were coming from. I will admit that I was honestly baffled by your thoughts on this, but I think I have a better sense of where you are coming from now, so I'll leave my last response on this as "thank you."

Kellydancer
10-06-2011, 02:35 PM
I took it as attacks by saying I'm not mother material because I will not give up my career. Many women work and being a stay at home parent does not mean they are better parents. It's good that this works for YOU but would not work for ME. I do not want to be a stay at home mom. If I had I would have years ago when I met several guys who wanted this. However I still want to be a mother (or at least open to it)and don't feel I should be denied because I refuse to adhere to an outdated view of what is a good mother.

dick_needle
10-07-2011, 12:33 PM
I don't have any money but if I did the last person I'd give it to is a woman. If my 53 years on this planet has taught me anything it's that women and money don't mix well.

lemiwinks31
10-07-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't have any money but if I did the last person I'd give it to is a woman. If my 53 years on this planet has taught me anything it's that women and money don't mix well.


how has that been working for you?

Naida
10-07-2011, 04:06 PM
This has gotten crazy, so I'll give my two cents and step away.

I will not tolerate a man who won't carry his own weight. My ex fiancée did not work. As the working partner, I paid for everything. From the beginning, we were very open with each other about what this would mean. Even if we were not well-to-do, I provided him a much more privileged lifestyle than he would have had if he were working. In return, I expected him to cook, clean, and take care of various other chores I assigned him, while also providing me sex and affection. That's not to say that I treated him as a "slave". I often cooked too and helped with chores on my days off, because we enjoyed each other's company and doing those things TOGETHER made them kind of fun while also giving us more bonding time. We were also both rather clingy, so the affection he gave me was never one sided. He understood that the option of not working was not a realistic one had he not been dating me, so he worked hard on the homefront to keep me happy.

Naida
10-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Damn character limit-

I saw this effort and (instead of taking advantage of it) rewarded him for it in various ways- going out, gifts, parties, just about anything he asked for. I also lavished him with far more affection and caring than I've given just about any other man. But he was also aware that I expected to swap roles during pregnancy if we had children and that he was going to be a stay at home dad after the birth.

I have never had this sort of arrangement with another man and probably never will- because there will never be another him.

Every relationship is different, just like every person in one is different. What worked for us then will not work for my current boyfriend and me. The key to having a successful relationship is not who works or the amount of money. Hell, I would argue that love doesn't even play a significant role. Because the base of ANY successful relationship (romantic or otherwise) is communicating with each other and tailoring it to meet both people's needs.

Just my thoughts

dick_needle
10-08-2011, 04:47 PM
how has that been working for you?

How has what been working for me?