View Full Version : Then why do you come here??
FeministStripper
11-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Sure, of course, no guy walks in thinking, gosh I have all this money, let me go and pay this girls bills.
This acknowledgement of "it's her job" is done at an intellectual, cerebral level, but for the most part, not really done at an emotional level. This is where all the wonderful sales and service analogies between strippers and real estate sales people, or coffee baristas or what-have-you completely break down.
What's a lapdance really? physical contact and in some cases a form of simulated sexual intercourse - all indications of sexual acceptance by a woman that's highly sought after by other men (ie she's physically attractive) Emotionally that's what a guy's thinking:
"I'm sexually validated, because a sought after person is accepting me sexually" not, "I'm promising this woman $20 and that's the sole reason for her pleasing me sexually" even if we intellectually understand that.
So, a person who thinks that way must also believe that therapists and medical professionals have a personal investment in their mental or physical health and that waitresses just WANT to bring them food to see their smiling faces while they eat. Does it bother them to pay those bills because it makes them feel exploited? Do they stiff the waitress because she's just a cold-hearted, mercenary meanie who's 'controlling' them through hunger? Do they really believe that real-estate agents give two shits about their home life?
Men are not children. They understand the concept of commerce. The ones that don't... well, that's their problem.
Vyanka
11-05-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm siggied! (is that a word?) By one of the cool chicks even!
Thanks V! :hat:
D'aww :-*
And yes, that's a word(at least here).
Djoser
11-05-2011, 04:35 PM
There's a lot of delusional thinking going on here.
Thinking a guy who pays 20$ for a lapdance is invariably getting a feeling of sexual validation is like thinking every woman you ply with so many drugs she doesn't even know her name and then fucks you is really into you as a man.
skwadim
11-05-2011, 04:51 PM
I always tip waitresses, hairdressers. masseuse, etc and don't get those who don't.
That's totally cool. But do you automatically tip or do you tip based on performance?
Most people are all cool with being generous, but do you tip McDonald cashiers, doormen of hotels, how about cops and firemen for that matter (they make a ridiculously low salary for the job function they perform) , in fact, why not school teachers? They perform a pretty big public service for pretty shitty pay (I mean, if that's the only criteria for what jobs are tip-worthy, and what jobs aren't) How about tow-truck drivers ? How about the guy that fixes watches ? The cable guy or phone guy?.. could go on and on...
Ever think why society tells you certain jobs are tip-worthy (in fact, ostracize you if you don't), and other jobs aren't ? Just a thought, seeing how this place is useful for presenting suggestions to make you think outside your own point of view and all...
skwadim
11-05-2011, 04:57 PM
Men are not children. They understand the concept of commerce. The ones that don't... well, that's their problem.
And the women dancers equally should understand the very same concept, that a guy is going to decide whether to buy LD's based on his own personal desire to have one, not on a cultural norm. The one's that don't? Well, that's their problem.
All Good Things
11-05-2011, 05:29 PM
^ God, I need a drink.
skwadim
11-05-2011, 06:15 PM
Thinking a guy who pays 20$ for a lapdance is invariably getting a feeling of sexual validation is like thinking every woman you ply with so many drugs she doesn't even know her name and then fucks you is really into you as a man.
I think here I was just looking for literary validation. Could either you or your interpreter translate this?
rickdugan
11-05-2011, 06:50 PM
It is hard to argue with much of what you posted and I think that we are in agreement on the broad strokes, but there are a couple of points that you (and others) have raised here that I think are worth discussing.
...3) they have what appears to be a strange sense of entitlement under which strip clubs become an extension of their own living rooms and where they can pay what is essentially a toll fee to watch dancers all night long trying to make a living while they quietly nurse a single beer.
I've seen the example of the guy nursing one drink, while gawking for an extended timeframe, raised in a few posts here, but IMHO that is more of an outlier situation than the norm. The OP used the example of a customer "drinking" but not buying dances, so most of my comments were made under that premise.
Now what is more common, IME, are the guys that pay a nominal cover ($5-10) and buy 2-3 drinks over the course of multiple hours. While one may argue that this is not much better than the customer nursing a single drink, keep in mind that, for the club, this amounts to anywhere from $20-40 in the register per "cheapskate." And if the club has even 30 guys like this cycling through over the course of a night, that can add up to real money.
My intent was not to suggest kicking out the non-tipping squatters who excel at taking up valuable room and displacing actual tipping/paying customers, all the while slowly sliding down in their chairs in a futile attempt at disappearing from view.
You and a few others have raised this displacement theory as an issue, but I'm not sure that I'm seeing it. Now it may be a function of the clubs that I frequent and the nights that I usually do so, but I haven't seen too many clubs struggling to accomodate customer headcount for quite some time. Also, since there are invariably a large percentage of non-spenders in a club on any given night, IME the guys who are spending do not generally lack for attention.
Anyway, just my :twocents: for whatever it may actually be worth. :)
melb_oz_n00b
11-05-2011, 07:06 PM
I've been that guy...
I started going to clubs with friends. Some times I would buy dances and I would always tip the stage. But I would buy drinks or VIP's. We would go to the clubs due to the BYOB laws around my area. It's a lot cheaper and more fun to go sit and drink at a club than a bar or resterant. The fact that there are boobies is just a bonus, it's not the reason we go. A lot of times we would actualy point out "better" customers to dancers trying to waist their time with us. Not doing it to be rude... But some of the girls around here are not good at their jobs. They would do just that, waist their time with us, knowing that we arn't there for them.
I later ended up living with one of my normals and that turned into me going up there to hang out with her and a few of our friends when nights were dead. I did tip the stage again but didn't ever buy any drinks, dances or VIP's... I did the whole "rain" thing for grins once. That was a mess. LOL
I understand how the club works, I had a good friend and customer of mine who owned one of the clubs in town... I have also dated a few strippers. So trust me I get it. But at the same time I wasn't going there for anything more than a fun environment to hang out with my friends in.
Actually I don't mind customers like you, as long as you explicitly tell them that you have no intention of getting a lapdance that night. And, most importantly, tell them within two minutes max. If guys are like this and are genuine, I will actually thank them for their honesty. Because too many guys lead you on just to get a hot near-naked chick's attention for free for as long as possible, then give you nothing in the end.
Also, offering a girl a drink is a nice gesture. I don't even drink, but I am mystified by how many men order a drink in front of me and don't even offer. While my hands are empty. So so rude.
FeministStripper
11-05-2011, 07:10 PM
And the women dancers equally should understand the very same concept, that a guy is going to decide whether to buy LD's based on his own personal desire to have one, not on a cultural norm. The one's that don't? Well, that's their problem.
That's absolutely true. It's just as rude to treat a customer with hostility because they're not spending money on you as it is to insult a dancer because she's not your type. We're there to excite, not extort. Everything works a lot better when people treat each other with respect and try to understand where others are coming from, don't you find?
skwadim
11-05-2011, 07:18 PM
That's absolutely true. It's just as rude to treat a customer with hostility because they're not spending money on you as it is to insult a dancer because she's not your type. We're there to excite, not extort. Everything works a lot better when people treat each other with respect and try to understand where others are coming from, don't you find?
Absolutely. but I think you and I are "diamonds in the rough" in that regard.
FeministStripper
11-05-2011, 07:28 PM
Absolutely. but I think you and I are "diamonds in the rough" in that regard.
I seem to have missed your point. How so?
Aurora_Sunset
11-05-2011, 07:56 PM
Most people are all cool with being generous, but do you tip McDonald cashiers, doormen of hotels, how about cops and firemen for that matter (they make a ridiculously low salary for the job function they perform) , in fact, why not school teachers? They perform a pretty big public service for pretty shitty pay (I mean, if that's the only criteria for what jobs are tip-worthy, and what jobs aren't) How about tow-truck drivers ? How about the guy that fixes watches ? The cable guy or phone guy?.. could go on and on...
These jobs do not depend on tips. They may be low-paying but they are making a living wage, not $2/hr like a waitress or nothing, as dancers do. The way SCs are run is that dancers make all their money off tips and dances - they're not getting paid minimum wage or money below what their time is "worth" - they get paid nothing by the establishment and purely by customers. Same with waitresses - they get paid somewhere in the ballpark of $2-4 an hour, because it's expected that they will survive mostly off tips. It's not just shitty (but liveable) pay for a lot of work - it's NO pay for work if the customers don't tip them. When you walk into these establishments, you know that. You know that they make their living off of tips. Of course your next question will be "how is that the customer's fault?" It's not, but it's the fact of the matter that's how it is. You KNOW that's how it's run, whether you came up with the scheme or not. You don't come up with the business model, but you choose to go to that business, knowing exactly how it works. To blatantly disregard how the culture is set up in regards to how the workers/performers make their living just because "well, it's not my fault the business is run like that" is just a childish excuse to get out of parting with your money. You're not rebelling against the norms of society - you're just being cheap.
KeithDoxen
11-05-2011, 08:02 PM
You and a few others have raised this displacement theory as an issue, but I'm not sure that I'm seeing it. Now it may be a function of the clubs that I frequent and the nights that I usually do so, but I haven't seen too many clubs struggling to accomodate customer headcount for quite some time. Also, since there are invariably a large percentage of non-spenders in a club on any given night, IME the guys who are spending do not generally lack for attention.
Good point. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been in a club and struggled to find a seat. A few months ago I was at UC here in Charlotte on a Friday night. There were like two dozen girls and maybe 10 guys. So right there, the girls are pretty much screwed because there are waaaay more girls than guys to make money off of. And assuming 5 of those 10 guys are just Lookie-Lous, well, then you've really got 20-plus girls competing for the money of just 5 guys or so. Pretty difficult to make any money even for the girls who are perfect-10s. But yeah, if you kick out the guys who are just there to look, they probably wouldn't be replaced by spenders. You'd probably just reduce the number of guys in the club from 10 to 5 in my above example.
Kellydancer
11-05-2011, 08:12 PM
I was going to respond to something like Aurora mentioned but she beat me to it. But yep I tip those people because they aren't paid minimum and depend on tips.
I suspect that some of the skinflints may be (either consciously or sub-consciously) enacting a "revenge" of sorts against the type of women that have rejected them their whole lives. Besides blatant verbal insults or physical harassment, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to add holding back money as a way to "get back" at the type of women that they could never get in real life - those women that they know that they could never afford to date or marry. It certainly is no surprise that (strictly by it's nature) SC's attract all sorts of socially retarded and misogynistic people that don't have very good women-interaction skills.
To be fair this hypothesis certainly wouldn't pertain to ALL of the cheapos, but certainly to some. I'm sure the majority are just your average tightwads that can pinch a penny so tightly that Lincoln would cry out in pain.
I think you are on to something. In another thread it was mentioned how some of the meanest customers are often the most repulsive and this seems to play right into that. I've noticed this as well with dating and some of the nastiest guys were unattractive. You would think they would be nice but they never are.
skwadim
11-05-2011, 08:29 PM
I seem to have missed your point. How so?
Well, based on my experience most people don't take the time to do exactly what you suggested.
skwadim
11-05-2011, 08:40 PM
These jobs do not depend on tips. They may be low-paying but they are making a living wage, not $2/hr like a waitress or nothing, as dancers do. The way SCs are run is that dancers make all their money off tips and dances - they're not getting paid minimum wage or money below what their time is "worth" - they get paid nothing by the establishment and purely by customers.
Ok, so your argument is that people should tip because they depend on tips for a living? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a tip ? If it's expected, it's no longer a tip, it's a fee.
Same with waitresses - they get paid somewhere in the ballpark of $2-4 an hour, because it's expected that they will survive mostly off tips. It's not just shitty (but liveable) pay for a lot of work - it's NO pay for work if the customers don't tip them. When you walk into these establishments, you know that. You know that they make their living off of tips. Of course your next question will be "how is that the customer's fault?" It's not, but it's the fact of the matter that's how it is. You KNOW that's how it's run, whether you came up with the scheme or not. You don't come up with the business model, but you choose to go to that business, knowing exactly how it works.
To blatantly disregard how the culture is set up in regards to how the workers/performers make their living just because "well, it's not my fault the business is run like that" is just a childish excuse to get out of parting with your money. You're not rebelling against the norms of society - you're just being cheap.
You're talking about 2 different things here, if we're talking waitressing tips, like I said, they're not really tips, it's just an extra fee. And the gov't taxes based on it being a "tippable" job. Secondly I think you're "norms of society" holds here more than in strip clubs, most people eat out a bit more frequently than going into a strip club.
As for the strip club example, again, just very selective how it all of a sudden is a "norm of society" and we have to walk in, as customers in consideration of someone's "making their living" but of course we as customers are treated as 'target's' or 'marks.'
It's not about being cheap (and isn't that a relative term anyway? and all the "cheapo cheapass fuck that cheapo" type rhetoric here reeks of all the Back to the Future movies where Biff repeatedly calls Marty chicken - just to get him to do something he doesn't want to do - here people have gone to the extent of saying it's going to compromise their outside of SC life as well) it's about having full control over how and where you spend your money, and again- don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a guy shouldn't expect to be targetted or marked, or hustled or whatever, I'm just saying if you're gonna take the impersonal/business/transactional interpretation, do it across the board.
Aurora_Sunset
11-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Ok, so you're argument is that people should tip because they depend on tips for a living? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a tip ? If it's expected, it's no longer a tip, it's a fee.
It's called a tip simply because it's not legally mandatory. But again, just because you don't have an obligation legally, and just because you weren't the one who decided it should be voluntary and not obligatory, doesn't socially waive you of the responsibility to adhere to the knowledge of how you know those people make their living. Sure, you have every right to spend or not spend your money how you please, but when you walk into a place where you know that a service/performance/what have you is performed solely or almost solely for tips, it's just plain disrespectful not to do it on some "principle" of "well, it should be mandatory but since it's not, not my fault so sorry 'bout ya." No one's saying you should tip every dancer or buy dances from all the dancers, but sitting there all night, clearly enjoying the performance but refusing to show monetary appreciation when you know they get nothing for it otherwise is rude as hell. No one is denying you the right to spend your money how you please, but don't go on with your delusions that not tipping in a establishment where tips are expected for the workers to make their money is anything but being disrespectful. If you truly believe that "tips" should really be mandatory fees, then why not start acting like they are? Don't blame the system when you have the power to spend just as much without it.
Vyanka
11-05-2011, 09:10 PM
That's totally cool. But do you automatically tip or do you tip based on performance?
Most people are all cool with being generous, but do you tip McDonald cashiers, doormen of hotels, how about cops and firemen for that matter (they make a ridiculously low salary for the job function they perform) , in fact, why not school teachers? They perform a pretty big public service for pretty shitty pay (I mean, if that's the only criteria for what jobs are tip-worthy, and what jobs aren't) How about tow-truck drivers ? How about the guy that fixes watches ? The cable guy or phone guy?.. could go on and on...
Ever think why society tells you certain jobs are tip-worthy (in fact, ostracize you if you don't), and other jobs aren't ? Just a thought, seeing how this place is useful for presenting suggestions to make you think outside your own point of view and all...
:withstupi
For fuck's sake, you're seriously that clueless for real???? :banghead:
FeministStripper
11-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Well, based on my experience most people don't take the time to do exactly what you suggested.
It's a learned skill, to be sure. I think we do best at it when we allow for the lively airing of strong opinions couched in vivid rhetoric. Civility and docility are often worlds apart, and great understanding can stem from heated debate.
skwadim
11-05-2011, 09:28 PM
:withstupi
For fuck's sake, you're seriously that clueless for real???? :banghead:
Gee, I was expecting something really devoid of intelligence, like an outburst of some kind, glad I was wrong.
FeministStripper
11-05-2011, 09:34 PM
Ok, so your argument is that people should tip because they depend on tips for a living? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a tip ? If it's expected, it's no longer a tip, it's a fee.
You're talking about 2 different things here, if we're talking waitressing tips, like I said, they're not really tips, it's just an extra fee. And the gov't taxes based on it being a "tippable" job. Secondly I think you're "norms of society" holds here more than in strip clubs, most people eat out a bit more frequently than going into a strip club.
As for the strip club example, again, just very selective how it all of a sudden is a "norm of society" and we have to walk in, as customers in consideration of someone's "making their living" but of course we as customers are treated as 'target's' or 'marks.'
It's not about being cheap (and isn't that a relative term anyway? and all the "cheapo cheapass fuck that cheapo" type rhetoric here reeks of all the Back to the Future movies where Biff repeatedly calls Marty chicken - just to get him to do something he doesn't want to do - here people have gone to the extent of saying it's going to compromise their outside of SC life as well) it's about having full control over how and where you spend your money, and again- don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a guy shouldn't expect to be targetted or marked, or hustled or whatever, I'm just saying if you're gonna take the impersonal/business/transactional interpretation, do it across the board.
Call it a fee, call it a tip, call it working for a living. Think of us as subcontractors. Just because you're paying the service-provider rather than the company for which they work doesn't mean you shouldn't pay for services rendered. Stripping is quite a specialized product; most women won't smilingly disrobe in the middle of a roomful of strangers at your request. It's like going to an erotic amusement park. People place high value -and therefore spend a lot of money - on recreation; it's important.
Why do you have to feel like a target or a mark any more than you do when you buy a house from a real-estate agent or a suit from a salesman that works on commission? Every person in sales sees everyone else as a potential sale, and being personable and engaging is always a plus. If you happen to be looking for the product they're selling, what's the problem? There are sincere salespeople and slick ones. Sometimes you make friends, sometimes you just make a purchase.
You don't have to be a mark, she doesn't have to be an object. You could both just be people engaging in a particularly enjoyable business transaction, where you pay her for her time and attention and she does the best she can to make it enjoyable and satisfying for you.
One more thing: a tip to your restaurant server ISN'T an extra fee. It's simply the same price you would pay if the restaurant paid the server directly and adjusted their prices accordingly. The difference is that by dividing the responsibility, because really your restaurant experience is as much about the service as the food, the server is compelled to offer YOU, the customer, a better experience - and those that don't take it seriously and do the work don't make as much money... which I thought was the essence of the American work ethic and spirit of free enterprise.
Kellydancer
11-05-2011, 09:38 PM
He's banned! He was awful.
skwadimbit
11-05-2011, 10:11 PM
Awful because he uses big words and actually made valid points?
I have to say that was pretty unexpected. That's cool if intellectual debate is not really what people come here for, if they'd rather curse guys out then ban them for speaking up for themselves.
FWIW Aurora and FeministStripper were really articulate and I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts.
I won't post anymore if it bothers people so much.
sexy_celeste
11-05-2011, 10:18 PM
I think it's pretty obvious. They are sitting in a strip club nursing a $7 beer because there are naked women there. The fact is, like it or not, your club owner has no way to force these guys to buy ld's or even tip at the stage.
Actually I worked at a place that had a $50 entrance fee, which came with $40 club 'money' to be used as tipping or towards a LD. It was non refundable (but could be saved for another visit), so the time wasters didnt come in as much. We still got a few who were jerks, but they would get bounced when rude.
But this was back in the 'golden' days when people had more money to spend
simple(headed?)guy
11-05-2011, 11:00 PM
This has gotten confusing to me in this thread and in others.
When talking about tips are you talking about tipping for on-stage dancing or are you talking about tipping after the LD above and beyond the LD fee? Sorry but the way these threads have woven it all together it gets confusing as I think I've seen some people use the word tip only in conjunction with the stage and dance rail. Then others appear to have expanded it to LD, VIP and/or CR.
It's fairly obvious to me that this is a hot topic issue, perhaps it would be easier to discuss if we could agree to the usage of the terms?
Kellydancer
11-05-2011, 11:13 PM
Wow that was the fastest banning ever of this guy.
Hopper
11-05-2011, 11:43 PM
So there's men here on SW, huh?
I've run into guys nightly who sit there have some drinks, who never get dances. Their responses would be like, "Oh, I don't want to get sucked in and end up spending thousands of dollars." OR my favorite- "You guys just want my money." (I mean, we ARE at work you think WE come here to pay a house fee to have a few drinks??) And then I get the guys who trash talk strippers, saying we are gold diggers, druggies etc etc and straight look down on strippers. Some of these guy come in EVERY NIGHT.
So please tell me, why the fuck are you here then?
Beats me. If a girl's body is worth watching it is worth touching. The dancers aren't going to take my money unless I give it to them and I get back what I think it's worth. At least not after the first time, and I don't hand them thousands of dollars at a time (not even in one year actually). I don't care if all the dancer wants is my money because,as with anything else I buy, I'm not expecting anything else for it except what I pay for. I guess these guys like to watch dancers but don't feel good about paying them to dance privately.
SteveSmith
11-06-2011, 08:56 AM
If you think about it, a strip club is really just a bar that happens to have dancers as a form of entertainment to lure guys in to buy drinks; because that's where most of the money is being made for the bar owner. Some bar owners have wide screen TVs to lure customers in to buy drinks and it's called a sports bar. Some bars have a band playing to bring in the customers, some bars have restaurants as part of the draw to sell drinks.
Some bar owner decades ago came up with the idea of having naked women dance on a stage to bring in guys to buy more drinks. It then became known as a strip club. The bar owner cares mostly about selling drinks, the dancers or the entertainment is secondary to him. Most of the money made off the dancers has to pay for DJs, bouncers, doormen, etc.
I spend between $130 to $180 every 2 to 4 weeks in the strip club. I usually buy 3 drinks, 2 for me and 1 for the dancer. The rest is spent on the entertainment. The guy who comes in 3 nights a week and spends $20 a night on drinks and spends zero on the entertainment is making the bar owner more money than a guy like me who buys dances. I buy 3 drinks in the course of a month versus a "non-spender" who buys 24 to 36 drinks in the course of a month. So, if we were to kick out the "non-spenders," 3 out of 4 strip clubs would go out of business.
As to why some guys don't spend money on the entertainment, there's several reasons. Some guys look at the SC as a place to go have a few drinks and unwind. Some don't have the money to buy dances (the economy), some like the atmosphere of the SC. Some guys have money but are cheap. As long as they're buying drinks and not annoying the dancers, then they are a welcome customer for the bar owner and the dancers who depend on them to keep the doors open.
I don't think that every SC patron has to interact with entertainment. The bar that has a band playing doesn't expect the customers to tip the members of the band. The bar owner has the band playing to lure customers in to buy drinks, the entertainment is free. The SC is a different than this, but it's kind of the same idea. I agree that "non-spenders" who annoy the dancers or waste their time are assholes. It's up to the dancers to figure out who wants to interact with the entertainment and avoid those who don't. Remember, the SC is really just a bar, and a bar by any other name is still a bar.
yoda57us
11-06-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't think that every SC patron has to interact with entertainment. The bar that has a band playing doesn't expect the customers to tip the members of the band. The bar owner has the band playing to lure customers in to buy drinks, the entertainment is free.
There may not be a charge to watch the band but they are not playing for free. The club is paying them. If they are working "for the door" then there is a cover charge and the band gets paid through the collecting of that cover charge. Conversely club owners don't pay dancers to work...at least, not anymore. A dancer has to pay a shift fee in order to be allowed to come into the club, dance on stage for tips and try and sell private dances.
While I agree with a lot of your logic this detail is the game changer. Club owners took that concept of free entertainment and turned it on it's ass when they stopped paying shift pay and started charging house fees. They turned strip clubs into a sales environment for the dancers. The club owner gets what he wants-women to draw business-but it costs him nothing. It's simply not realistic to expect dancers to be happy about the fact that there are some guys watching them take there clothes off and not tipping while other guys are.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 11:57 AM
I was going to mention about the bands. Years ago I booked bands and depending on the band, they were either paid, paid part of the cover, or in some cases free in the case of a charity event. In many of these cases the bar also gave them a bar tab.
None of this usually happens for dances. While some clubs have free bar for the dancers (I worked at clubs that gave us free soda or water)many do not. Most now charge dancers, and also charge them to pay for the staff, while the fees go up. Because of that there is a feeling of being used at times when the non spenders come in. While yes, many of these guys do spend a lot on the bar even if it's not the dancers, many others don't spend that much on the bar either.
Those guys who don't tip (I am talking those guys who don't even tip on stage)don't realize how embarassing it can be stripping and exposing body parts not normally exposed. They don't realize it if this business paid minimum wage most would not do it. They don't realize all the negative parts of it from the management to the mean customers. Trust me, working a 8 hour shift and making less than a minimum wage job is one of the most demeaning experiences one can imagine. This experience becomes more and more common when more of these non tippers come in because what ends up happening often is these guys (who are often trashy looking to boot)start taking over the club, and the tippers stay away. Of course the decent dancers leave and the club is left with either the ugly girls who can't go anywhere or the extras girls.
FeministStripper
11-06-2011, 12:48 PM
Some bar owner decades ago came up with the idea of having naked women dance on a stage to bring in guys to buy more drinks. It then became known as a strip club.
The bar was San Francisco's Condor club; the dancer was Carol Doda, who appeared go-go/burlesque style for quite a while, making her entrance by being lowered from the ceiling on a piano. In June of 1964 she received a 'monokini' (a topless bikini) from the club's publicist and decided to perform in it that night. Two months later there were topless bars all over the West Coast. In a year they were all over the country.
The Republican National Convention was held that summer; many of the delegates took the time to catch Carol's act. In 1973 a Nicaraguan dictator did the same.
Carol made history and faced the early obscenity charges which led to the legalization of stripping. She was and is a pioneer.
SteveSmith
11-06-2011, 12:49 PM
There may not be a charge to watch the band but they are not playing for free. The club is paying them. If they are working "for the door" then there is a cover charge and the band gets paid through the collecting of that cover charge. Conversely club owners don't pay dancers to work...at least, not anymore. A dancer has to pay a shift fee in order to be allowed to come into the club, dance on stage for tips and try and sell private dances.
While I agree with a lot of your logic this detail is the game changer. Club owners took that concept of free entertainment and turned it on it's ass when they stopped paying shift pay and started charging house fees. They turned strip clubs into a sales environment for the dancers. The club owner gets what he wants-women to draw business-but it costs him nothing. It's simply not realistic to expect dancers to be happy about the fact that there are some guys watching them take there clothes off and not tipping while other guys are.
Some bars with bands have a cover and some don't. If you're paying a cover for that bar then you're paying a small amount for the entertainment. I stand corrected. The most popular bar with the one of the best bands in my area has no cover. Most of the bars with bands around where I live don't have a cover charge. One bar has a $5 cover but the rest are free. The SC I go to has no cover.
I was trying to make the point that bar owners lure customers in with a form of entertainment and it's not mandatory for the customer to interact with the entertainment or tip if they don't want to as long as they're buying drinks.
There are 2 levels of entertainment at the SC. Looking is free and is a lure to get customers to walk through the door and buy drinks. The other level of entertainment, close up personal contact with the dancer, costs money. The customer is not obligated to go to the second level.
I know that it's not fair that this situation exists but what are you going to do. If it wasn't for all those drink only customers, the whole SC industry would collapse.
yoda57us
11-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Some bars with bands have a cover and some don't. If you're paying a cover for that bar then you're paying a small amount for the entertainment. I stand corrected. The most popular bar with the one of the best bands in my area has no cover. Most of the bars with bands around where I live don't have a cover charge. One bar has a $5 cover but the rest are free. The SC I go to has no cover.
As I said in my earlier post Steve I agree with much of what you said. My point however was not who is paying for the entertainment but rather that the entertainment is getting paid. Bands are, dancers are not. Dancers are working on spec. That has an undeniable effect on the clubs, attitudes, and even on the activity of the threads on this board.
I know that it's not fair that this situation exists but what are you going to do. If it wasn't for all those drink only customers, the whole SC industry would collapse.
I agree but I would also point out that without strippers these places would be selling beer for three bucks instead of six or eight. Don't even get me started on what a strip club gets for a mixed drink. I bought my fav a Crown royal on the rocks last night for $12 and that was not a "dancer drink" it was the going rate all night long. The profit margin for liquor sales in a strip club is much higher because of the type of entertainment involved. In addition, the fees and tips that a dancer pays go toward paying pretty much the entire support staff. Twenty years ago clubs paid dancers to come to work, dancers danced on stage for tips and guys who didn't tip were not allowed to sit at the stage. That's all changed now. Don't get me wrong, when things are good dancers profit hugely from the newer business model. There is potential for much more income based on selling dances than there ever was from stage tips alone. The key word of course is potential and the irony in all of this is that a dancer's sales pitch can actually contribute to a no-money guy thinking it's ok to just sit in the club and not spend any money. Just listen to the losers who show up here thinking it's OK to chat with dancer after dancer only to insult them when they finally ask if you want to buy a dance.
Strip clubs are bars but they are bars with strippers. The guy who owns the bar could still own a bar with tv sets or bad cover bands but he would be making less money. The dancers need a place to work and the club owner needs T&A to make a larger profit. It should be a mutually beneficial arrangement but all too often it is becoming less so.
All Good Things
11-06-2011, 03:29 PM
Now what is more common, IME, are the guys that pay a nominal cover ($5-10) and buy 2-3 drinks over the course of multiple hours...and if the club has even 30 guys like this cycling through over the course of a night, that can add up to real money.
This thread until recently has been about dancer income, tipping and the implied tipping culture of the club. Also, whether customers embraced the practice of tipping/paying dancers for their time or, alternatively, stubbornly and vehemently rejected it.
The economics of club ownership and profitability is not only another thread, it's an entirely different subject. It involves negotiating pretty tricky terrain given the dramatically different club models around the country, the leveraging of brands and locations, wildly differing laws in different local jurisdictions, etc.
I appreciate your comments and insight but I don't think any of us has the raw data to know what would "cause SCs to disappear overnight." Presumably, the worse economy in 40 years that steadfastly refuses to come back to life coupled with persistently high unemployment would do more to destroy clubs than any other scenario -- instead, the clubs have largely survived (under increasing strain) and the dancers have as well (although most have suffered financially and continue to do so) with both having adopted their own strategies to survive, depending on the particular club model -- and there are many different club models, as you know.
You and a few others have raised this displacement theory as an issue, but I'm not sure that I'm seeing it. Now it may be a function of the clubs that I frequent and the nights that I usually do so, but I haven't seen too many clubs struggling to accomodate customer headcount for quite some time. Also, since there are invariably a large percentage of non-spenders in a club on any given night, IME the guys who are spending do not generally lack for attention.
Yes of course, the spending guys do not lack for attention, although that's always been true.
However, several dancers (and a female customer) have posted their own horror stories about the displacement effect in this thread and those of us who have frequented clubs for long enough -- I'm including you in this group -- have all witnessed the dead-ass broke wallpaper customers and the perv row nontippers and the college-age one-beer-only crowd and the vehement stand-on-principle clueless twits and the "I'm-too-cool-to-tip" losers and the delusional "friends of the club owner" and the young guys who think they're the shit, and the bar-only regulars who see the dancers as their BFFs so they never tip them, along with the drag-along angry girlfriends, players, gamers, dealers, wanna-be pimps, etc.
That shit adds up.
There are 2 levels of entertainment at the SC. Looking is free and is a lure to get customers to walk through the door and buy drinks. The other level of entertainment, close up personal contact with the dancer, costs money. The customer is not obligated to go to the second level. .
Leaving aside the fact that your "SC is really a bar with nude girls" model excludes a whole segment of the SC universe -- the non-alcohol clubs, the juice clubs, the BYOB clubs and various combinations thereof -- the idea that "looking is free" in a SC is just simply f'in crazy. See "That shit adds up," above. I just don't have the energy needed to explain this yet again. Sorry.
FeministStripper
11-06-2011, 03:40 PM
There are 2 levels of entertainment at the SC. Looking is free and is a lure to get customers to walk through the door and buy drinks. The other level of entertainment, close up personal contact with the dancer, costs money. The customer is not obligated to go to the second level.
I know that it's not fair that this situation exists but what are you going to do. If it wasn't for all those drink only customers, the whole SC industry would collapse.
The thing is, if there were enough drink-only customers, the industry would collapse at any rate - although I think that scenario might be as hyperbolic, in its way, as the notion that gay marriage, feminism and birth control are going to lead to the dismantling of the nuclear family and the extinction of humanity.
Drink-only customers in strip clubs are the equivalent of the booth-squatters at any all-night diner that sit for six hours drinking coffee and splitting one order of fries four ways. They eat all the saltines at the table and leave a bunch of empty condiment-packages for their server to clean up - and tip her parsimoniously, basing their gratuity on the exact dollar amount of their meal rather than the effort and attention they demanded of her over most of her shift. Sure, they're well-within their rights, but it'd be pretty silly to complain when the staff doesn't look too excited to see them.
I've edited to add that once, when I was working nude, a customer came to the stage empty-handed and demanded that I come over and give him a show. I didn't, of course, though he was free to continue watching me dance. After a while he got angry and actually went to management to complain that he'd paid to get in and so I should be obligated to let him have a closer look. I've never forgotten how baffled he looked when they explained how things work. He was genuinely surprised.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 04:20 PM
However, several dancers (and a female customer) have posted their own horror stories about the displacement effect in this thread and those of us who have frequented clubs for long enough -- I'm including you in this group -- have all witnessed the dead-ass broke wallpaper customers and the perv row nontippers and the college-age one-beer-only crowd and the vehement stand-on-principle clueless twits and the "I'm-too-cool-to-tip" losers and the delusional "friends of the club owner" and the young guys who think they're the shit, and the bar-only regulars who see the dancers as their BFFs so they never tip them, along with the drag-along angry girlfriends, players, gamers, dealers, wanna-be pimps, etc
Unfortunately, this whole problem of getting cheap customers has been going on as long as I was dancing starting in 1993. While I danced during a better time, there were still clubs I worked at where we got cheapasses. Back then though there were more options. However, almost every club I danced at there were always the "friends of the owners", college frat boys, etc. These guys were always around but usually there were the tipping guys to make up for them. At the last club all we got were the non tippers. They would even sit at stage and not tip.
I don't think there's a club owner here but in a way I wish there were only to ask why they often rip off the dancers by the often outrageous tipping while they have many non tippers who don't even buy many drinks.
Djoser
11-06-2011, 04:21 PM
So there's men here on SW, huh?
I've run into guys nightly who sit there have some drinks, who never get dances. Their responses would be like, "Oh, I don't want to get sucked in and end up spending thousands of dollars." OR my favorite- "You guys just want my money." (I mean, we ARE at work you think WE come here to pay a house fee to have a few drinks??) And then I get the guys who trash talk strippers, saying we are gold diggers, druggies etc etc and straight look down on strippers. Some of these guy come in EVERY NIGHT.
So please tell me, why the fuck are you here then?
Getting back to the OP.
I know very well why some guys come here. To attempt to prey on the naive female members who buy into their line of shit. Fortunately there aren't many of these guys, but sometimes they are very hard to spot, since they eschew traditional PUA methods, and instead pretend to be here to 'help' the female members. Playing the fucking White Knight role to the hilt, when really they are just trying to rack up a score. They might even actually buy into their own bullshit, which makes them very dangerous, and no less detestable.
Then there are the guys like this one advocating cheap customer behavior, who apparently only come her to insult the dancers, instead of running a fucking Game on their asses. I might actually prefer the honesty (if rude) approach--though good riddance to both types.
Fortunately there are a whole lot of guys like Yoda as well (to name only one). Not running any games. Not trying to score. Not posting ad nauseum about their incredible sexual prowess. Not insulting the dancers or telling the guys not to tip them.
All Good Things
11-06-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't think there's a club owner here but in a way I wish there were only to ask why they often rip off the dancers by the often outrageous tipping while they have many non tippers who don't even buy many drinks.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure I understood the above. Could you clarify? Thanks.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 04:27 PM
The thing is, if there were enough drink-only customers, the industry would collapse at any rate - although I think that scenario might be as hyperbolic, in its way, as the notion that gay marriage, feminism and birth control are going to lead to the dismantling of the nuclear family and the extinction of humanity.
Drink-only customers in strip clubs are the equivalent of the booth-squatters at any all-night diner that sit for six hours drinking coffee and splitting one order of fries four ways. They eat all the saltines at the table and leave a bunch of empty condiment-packages for their server to clean up - and tip her parsimoniously, basing their gratuity on the exact dollar amount of their meal rather than the effort and attention they demanded of her over most of her shift. Sure, they're well-within their rights, but it'd be pretty silly to complain when the staff doesn't look too excited to see them.
I've edited to add that once, when I was working nude, a customer came to the stage empty-handed and demanded that I come over and give him a show. I didn't, of course, though he was free to continue watching me dance. After a while he got angry and actually went to management to complain that he'd paid to get in and so I should be obligated to let him have a closer look. I've never forgotten how baffled he looked when they explained how things work. He was genuinely surprised.
I wish I could say I was surprised but am not. I have heard variations myself from guys who got mad I wouldn't sit with them for no pay because "you are paid to talk to customers" to the guys who thought I enjoyed dancing even if I wasn't paid. I had several guys who got mad because I refused to go topless and they weren't tipping. I also remember one club we would get these guys who wanted to see the goods upfront before they would decide to pay (this was a topless club). One club I worked at did the dollar dances but the only thing is most of the guys wouldn't even tip a dollar. So I didn't go topless and they complained.
You are on the mark about the restaurant comparison. I worked as a waitress and those kinds of customers took up space that a better customer would. While yes they were paying, but not as much as someone buying more food and tipping, yet the waitress has to work the same. Customers like that are why I lfet waitressing.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 04:30 PM
I agree with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure I understood the above. Could you clarify? Thanks.
I wrote that in a hurry but I was thinking of the owners who rip off the dancers by charging dancers a high house, along with high tipping of staff, without a high income customer base. I once worked in a club like that where the owner charged a high house but the customers weren't there (or they were non tippers). When I asked why he did that he said "because I can". Of course the good dancers left because why pay the same as the high income downtown clubs? This club was in a low income area and the customers were mostly looky loos who were lucky to buy one drink.
All Good Things
11-06-2011, 04:38 PM
^ If that club is still in business, he's obviously got a secret that neither of us understands.
SteveSmith
11-06-2011, 04:39 PM
However, several dancers (and a female customer) have posted their own horror stories about the displacement effect in this thread and those of us who have frequented clubs for long enough -- I'm including you in this group -- have all witnessed the dead-ass broke wallpaper customers and the perv row nontippers and the college-age one-beer-only crowd and the vehement stand-on-principle clueless twits and the "I'm-too-cool-to-tip" losers and the delusional "friends of the club owner" and the young guys who think they're the shit, and the bar-only regulars who see the dancers as their BFFs so they never tip them, along with the drag-along angry girlfriends, players, gamers, dealers, wanna-be pimps, etc.
You forgot about the guys who befriend the dancers then ply them with drugs then rape them. Those guys are the worst.
Leaving aside the fact that your "SC is really a bar with nude girls" model excludes a whole segment of the SC universe -- the non-alcohol clubs, the juice clubs, the BYOB clubs and various combinations thereof --
All those bars are non-alcohol probably because of a local ordinance. They must be selling some form of drinks to keep the bar open. I've never been to one of those bars and I don't know of any in my area, so they must be a tiny percentage of SCs. I'm sure if they could sell alcohol they would. That's why I said 3 out of 4 SCs would go out of business.
the idea that "looking is free" in a SC is just simply f'in crazy. See "That shit adds up," above. I just don't have the energy needed to explain this yet again. Sorry.
I've never seen any rules posted at any SC that says that tipping or buying dances is mandatory. The "looking is free" is reality, you're just reacting irrationally to this reality.
yoda57us
11-06-2011, 04:41 PM
I wrote that in a hurry but I was thinking of the owners who rip off the dancers by charging dancers a high house, along with high tipping of staff, without a high income customer base. I once worked in a club like that where the owner charged a high house but the customers weren't there (or they were non tippers). When I asked why he did that he said "because I can".
This is definitely a problem in a couple of the clubs I frequent. Too many club owners are trying to gain back the income loses incurred by the recession on the backs, and wallets, of dancers. Raising house fees, raising the house cut of dances or imposing a house cut if their wasn't one, imposing fines, over-scheduling dancers and forced dance specials that require sales of everything from t-shirts to old porn DVD's are some of the things that come to mind. The list of stupid owner tricks is long...
All Good Things
11-06-2011, 04:47 PM
^ No, I'm arguing that there is an underlying tipping custom that anybody with common sense will pick up on right away. It's certainly clear that it is not required, ever, but it's an essential part of the environment just the same.
With respect to your other comment, I think Pryce's thread has begun the process of setting the record straight on that, although it's just brushed the surface. I hope we can let that process continue naturally.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 04:50 PM
^ If that club is still in business, he's obviously got a secret that neither of us understands.
I believe it's still around, but is pretty much now an extras club (it got busted a few months back). I've seen photos of the girls working there now and they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
Djoser
11-06-2011, 04:53 PM
You forgot about the guys who befriend the dancers then ply them with drugs then rape them. Those guys are the worst.
Don't even get me started on this...
All those bars are non-alcohol probably because of a local ordinance. They must be selling some form of drinks to keep the bar open. I've never been to one of those bars and I don't know of any in my area, so they must be a tiny percentage of SCs. I'm sure if they could sell alcohol they would. That's why I said 3 out of 4 SCs would go out of business.
Yeah I've been to quite a few of these, and invariably they are not simply choosing not to sell alcohol, but forbidden by law to do so. Otherwise they almost all would I am sure. Though some of the 'After Hours' clubs that have a big following might make a good profit via cover charges and house fees. And there is almost always a way the people there will get drinks, either going outside to their cars, sneaking it in, etc.
I've never seen any rules posted at any SC that says that tipping or buying dances is mandatory. The "looking is free" is reality, you're just reacting irrationally to this reality.
This is true. I have been known to tip every dancer onstage for as long as I was in a few clubs, but really I much prefer spending on the ones I like for any number of reasons--looks, personality, my friends I have worked with who tipped me well, serious pole trick skillz, etc., etc. It's sad that the recent economic downturn has led to many, many mire customers being cheap asses, though, and more and more of them are there for a free show. I have found my self getting increasingly irritated at work when the dancers are not getting tipped, whether they are fat and ugly or hot and talented.
Kellydancer
11-06-2011, 04:54 PM
This is definitely a problem in a couple of the clubs I frequent. Too many club owners are trying to gain back the income loses incurred by the recession on the backs, and wallets, of dancers. Raising house fees, raising the house cut of dances or imposing a house cut if their wasn't one, imposing fines, over-scheduling dancers and forced dance specials that require sales of everything from t-shirts to old porn DVD's are some of the things that come to mind. The list of stupid owner tricks is long...
One of the clubs I danced at back at 1997 did all of that. I quit because there was little money to begin with then with all of that there was no money. The worst was they wanted us to go on stage and do a "fashion show" with their T shirts then allow men to take the shirt off and we would be topless (I declined this one). I suppose if I was making $200+ or so every night I would tolerated this bu going home with $50 if I was lucky wasn't my idea of a great night, considering I made more than that everywhere else. I know it wasn't me because I always made money, it was lack of tipping customers.
flyguy29
11-06-2011, 06:42 PM
There isn't a "one size fits all" answer. I admit in certain scs, i always go in with the expectation of buying dances. There are sc experiences, where husyle factor was low, way fewer dancers working and NFL playing on several tv screens. I ended up experiencing the sc as more of a bar with eye candy. Years ago, the only way I knew how to enjoy a sc was with friends for an occassion such as a bachelir party. The idea of a$200+ 30 minute tease was beyond me.
I go in sometimes to hang out and say hi to dancers who I have spent money on. I also go in with every intention to buy dancea only ti find the "vibe" not there, so the visit ends up being more of a trip to a bar. i go 5-6 times per year with a huge budget for 3 of those visits. Point is, there are many experiences for different pareons. Venue, city, dancer lineup, and occassion end up having the biggest impact on my spending. Again, not an answer that completely satisfies the op, but it is an answer to help understand a few reasons why there will be nights where patrons just sit around
Vyanka
11-06-2011, 09:18 PM
If you think about it, a strip club is really just a bar that happens to have dancers as a form of entertainment to lure guys in to buy drinks; because that's where most of the money is being made for the bar owner. Some bar owners have wide screen TVs to lure customers in to buy drinks and it's called a sports bar. Some bars have a band playing to bring in the customers, some bars have restaurants as part of the draw to sell drinks.
Some bar owner decades ago came up with the idea of having naked women dance on a stage to bring in guys to buy more drinks. It then became known as a strip club. The bar owner cares mostly about selling drinks, the dancers or the entertainment is secondary to him. Most of the money made off the dancers has to pay for DJs, bouncers, doormen, etc.
I spend between $130 to $180 every 2 to 4 weeks in the strip club. I usually buy 3 drinks, 2 for me and 1 for the dancer. The rest is spent on the entertainment. The guy who comes in 3 nights a week and spends $20 a night on drinks and spends zero on the entertainment is making the bar owner more money than a guy like me who buys dances. I buy 3 drinks in the course of a month versus a "non-spender" who buys 24 to 36 drinks in the course of a month. So, if we were to kick out the "non-spenders," 3 out of 4 strip clubs would go out of business.
As to why some guys don't spend money on the entertainment, there's several reasons. Some guys look at the SC as a place to go have a few drinks and unwind. Some don't have the money to buy dances (the economy), some like the atmosphere of the SC. Some guys have money but are cheap. As long as they're buying drinks and not annoying the dancers, then they are a welcome customer for the bar owner and the dancers who depend on them to keep the doors open.
I don't think that every SC patron has to interact with entertainment. The bar that has a band playing doesn't expect the customers to tip the members of the band. The bar owner has the band playing to lure customers in to buy drinks, the entertainment is free. The SC is a different than this, but it's kind of the same idea. I agree that "non-spenders" who annoy the dancers or waste their time are assholes. It's up to the dancers to figure out who wants to interact with the entertainment and avoid those who don't. Remember, the SC is really just a bar, and a bar by any other name is still a bar.
Alcohol sale is part of what makes the club money, yes.
I'm only going to speak for the type of clubs I work at.
They make money off of entrance fee, coat check fee, private room fees, funny money purchases, a large cut of our income(which customers gives us) that goes to the club by the end of the night, etc.(i'm probably missing more). If it weren't for us dancers, the club would flop. We sell rooms and champagne bottles, that's where the club makes most of their money. That's where they need us for that. Not by a few bottles of beer or a glass of grey goose.
Again, in the type of club that I work at... I don't know how a guy who isn't spending, can go there to unwind. He's not going to be able to. Every girl that he will eyeball will approach him for a sale... how many times is he going to keep on saying no?? That is going to get annoying quick & i've seen guys like this get irritated at dancers too for doing their job. ::) Girls will be giving him dirty looks all night. I don't know how that doesn't make someone feel uncomfortable?
Nonspenders bring in bad energy to the clubs. Pretty inconsiderate. We're not showing off our beautiful naked bodies for free, just for shits and giggles(I know i'm not).
Alright, i'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. I don't want to go into work this week with anxiety thinking the club will be filled with nonspenders. :P