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Hopper
11-10-2011, 10:35 PM
How long before Hopper and Yoda just start making out?

Just lock us in a room together and see what happens.

Hopper
11-10-2011, 10:49 PM
Oh, I only have the patience to skim through this but yoda IS the swellest guy in SW.......

Just out of interest, how much does he spend?

Hopper
11-10-2011, 10:53 PM
Actually "your post is nonsense" is an opinion. It doesn't always take several paragraphs to tell someone that they are full of it.

Yes, it's an opinion, but there is no point in stating it unless you state reasons for it. Saying why I am wrong would take several paragraphs. If you don't have the time to tell me why I'm wrong, don't bother telling me.

If you were a scientist or some other type of expert, I would not ask for a complete explanation of your opinion, because I would probably not be able to follow it. But you are not speaking as an expert.


From the looks of things, several folks agree with my "non-opinion".

You believe in truth by democracy and you are questioning my intelligence?

FeministStripper disagrees with me but she at least regarded my comments worthy of response, meaning that she also managed to make sense of them. That indicates that the problem probably lies with yourself and the rest of your "cool kids" club.


I rarely put people on ignore. What fun is that?

It would be more fun for me.


Well, fortunately for the rest of the free world you don't set the rules on how message boards work. Otherwise I suppose I would be banned!

I would not ban you. I am simply asking you to be reasonable. This message board is headed "Open Industry Discussion". "You are Wrong", "No, you are wrong" is not a discussion.


It takes two to "snipe". If you don't think my responses to your posts are worthwhile then why on earth are we even having this debate?

It takes only one person to snipe - the other is just the victim of the sniping. Your sniping posts are not worthwhile simply because they contain nothing but sniping.

yoda57us
11-10-2011, 11:40 PM
It would be more fun for me.


OK, put me on ignore then...

I'm not going to participate here by your rules of what is right and wrong Hopper. Whether you realize it or not, one word or one sentence is just as valid an opinion as a paragraph is. You may be annoyed by the fact that I refuse to elaborate but that's my prerogative. No one is forcing you to read anything I post here but, clearly, you would rather argue with me about how we should argue than ignore me...

yoda57us
11-11-2011, 01:59 AM
Just lock us in a room together and see what happens.

lol, a classic one-sentence response...


Just out of interest, how much does he spend?

This is a message board, not strip club Hopper. Maybe part of your problem is that you don't understand the difference?
Just to elaborate, since you seem to like that sort of thing, KS and I have never had a customer/dancer relationship. She was retired when we met. We are just good friends. There is no price tag for that sort of thing.

KS_Stevia
11-11-2011, 05:52 AM
Not to mention the places where you have a huge house, huge tips to staff (some that do nothing to deserve it)and on top of this many clubs require you to split dance/room money.

Regarding flexibility while I would say yes that MOST clubs are flexible, not all are. I briefly worked at a club where they were open 6 days a week and required you to work 5 of those days. The shift were long too, something like 9pm-7am in the morning. The club was near the Dan Ryan, which is a busy expressway in Chicago and 7am is rush and if you aren't paying attention you will end up on the expressway (and I did one day). Anyway, 5 days a week to me never sounded flexible especially for those hours.

See, this wasn't my experience. In the 90's there used to be shift requirements but by early 2000's, down here, anyone could come and go when they wanted at almost every club. I danced at one place on the east coast that would waive a house fee if you scheduled yourself 3X a week...and actually showed up. But then that club fined girls for all kinds of bullshit (not me, I'm perfect, lol).

So....ya can't win. I've worked at a few clubs that for a while decided that dancers only had to pay a house fee and no tipping out allowed, not to DJ, bouncers, no one. That was a sweet gig because if you got there early, like around 5pm, it was only $15-20 to work. And everyone was really nice too, even without getting tipped, because the club was paying them a living wage, and not depending on the dancers to support the staff.




Just out of interest, how much does he spend?



This is a message board, not strip club Hopper. Maybe part of your problem is that you don't understand the difference?
Just to elaborate, since you seem to like that sort of thing, KS and I have never had a customer/dancer relationship. She was retired when we met. We are just good friends. There is no price tag for that sort of thing.

:D Hopper

Yoda you still owe me a trip to the SC. The girl I had picked out for you moved away so we need to hunt for a replacement. ;D

We're just friends and he's never spent more than a couple of bucks for drinks on me. I truly like the guy, and so does everyone else here, for a reason. He's not an ass kissing bridge dweller, he's a super cool chill guy who works hard, adores women, and just doesn't have a bunch of weird issues or barely hidden misoginey brewing.

Besides, why wouldn't I say nice things about my friends? Both IRL and online?

rickdugan
11-11-2011, 07:17 AM
I'm telling you how I felt and how many of the women with whom I worked also felt. Another dancer on this very thread has concurred, though apparently that hasn't really incorporated itself into your understanding of the discussion we're having - which, sincerely, is nothing more than ideological.

You've played that card twice now. All that means is that two dancers share certain viewpoints. Having said that, I have no doubt that there are others who share those views as well.

On the flip side, I deal with a number of dancers who, for all of the reasons discussed, would either not be able to work in this industry at all or would be negatively impacted by the types of changes that you are advocating. Either that hasn't incorporated itself into your understanding of the discussion that we are having or you just don't care about the issues faced by those particular strippers. Given your statement below, I suspect that it is the latter.


So, because you've brought it up, I'll ask: are you normally a proponent of illegal immigration and tax fraud, or just in the case of hot naked women?


Well, the fact that they are hot and naked certainly doesn't hurt. ;)

But putting aside their nakedness or how hot they are, do I support the right of girls that have fled crushing poverty in other countries to try to support themselves here as best they can? Yes I do. And do I support the efforts of single mothers to keep as much as they can squeeze out of the shifts that they can manage to work so that they can provide the best lives possible for themselves and their children? You're damned right I do. I'm not going any further down this road as it is becoming political, which is generally prohibited on this board, but there it is.

You do realize, do you not, that when you add up the dancers that: (1) are less than conscientious about tracking every reportable dollar (many of whom are also single moms); (2) have criminal records; and/or (3) are undocumented, we are probably talking about a solid majority of the girls currently dancing? Idk, but it seems to me like you are less concerned about protecting the rights of all dancers and more concerned about making things better for a certain sub-set of dancers who operate in a way that you find morally and ethically acceptable. Hey, that is all fine and we each have a right to our opinions - I'm just saying that we should call it what it is.

rickdugan
11-11-2011, 08:43 AM
Read up on San Francisco's Lusty Lady and its history.

To be fair, I did. I was particularly interested in how they were managing the issues I raised here:


How in the world could you possibly enforce some of the more applicable employment laws in a strip club environment, including the sexual harassment and occupational safety laws?

Well, I got my answer. They keep the girls behind glass. It is basically a peep show joint.

If this is the standard that would need to be applied in order for clubs to operate in an employer/employee model under today's employment laws, then I very much stand by my initial response:


The answer is that one couldn't, at least not as most strip clubs are today. Owners would need to dramatically sterilize their clubs, which would undoubtedly lead to fewer customers and drive dancer income down yet more.
Also, if this type of model was forced upon all clubs, I suspect that a fair number of them would simply cease to exist, leading to, of course, far fewer dancer jobs available.

The Jackal
11-11-2011, 10:30 AM
So there's men here on SW, huh?

I've run into guys nightly who sit there have some drinks, who never get dances. Their responses would be like, "Oh, I don't want to get sucked in and end up spending thousands of dollars." OR my favorite- "You guys just want my money." (I mean, we ARE at work you think WE come here to pay a house fee to have a few drinks??) And then I get the guys who trash talk strippers, saying we are gold diggers, druggies etc etc and straight look down on strippers. Some of these guy come in EVERY NIGHT.

So please tell me, why the fuck are you here then?

Here is my take on it.

It is perfectly reasonable for a customer to not want to be sucked into spending thousands of dollars. But customers should understand that strippers are there to work and pay bills. It is your objective to make the maximum amount of money you can. There is nothing wrong with it as long as you do it legally and ethically.

I think sometimes guys find themselves at the sad crossroad in their life. They just use strip clubs as a medium to escape from their sadness. I would say ignore them if you cannot be nice to them.

FeministStripper
11-11-2011, 12:44 PM
You've played that card twice now. All that means is that two dancers share certain viewpoints. Having said that, I have no doubt that there are others who share those views as well.

On the flip side, I deal with a number of dancers who, for all of the reasons discussed, would either not be able to work in this industry at all or would be negatively impacted by the types of changes that you are advocating. Either that hasn't incorporated itself into your understanding of the discussion that we are having or you just don't care about the issues faced by those particular strippers. Given your statement below, I suspect that it is the latter.

... Idk, but it seems to me like you are less concerned about protecting the rights of all dancers and more concerned about making things better for a certain sub-set of dancers who operate in a way that you find morally and ethically acceptable. Hey, that is all fine and we each have a right to our opinions - I'm just saying that we should call it what it is.

No, you're not calling it what it is. You're calling it as you've incorrectly interpreted it. We clearly don't agree, and you insist on spinning what I say just slightly, offering little tiny strawmen rather than genuine responses. Your characterization of what I want for the industry and why I want it seems based more on your desire to disagree than actual ideological objection. It's tiring trying to keep you on track. Obviously you like things the way they are, and don't see the need for change. Noted. Please note in turn that I've managed to respond to your actual points without making inaccurate and unflattering speculations about your motivations. I haven't called you an evil corporate executive or made snide remarks about things like your 'world order'. I much prefer actual dialogue; it's so much more productive. It's obvious that you possess the intellectual agility for it, so it appears to me that it's a matter of disposition rather than capability.

So: most clubs already require proof of employability, just as other businesses do; no part of the reform that I desire would change that. Therefore your notion that my ideas would have much effect on women with criminal records is baseless; there are already plenty of people with such records in the work force, and strip bars, among other types of industry, are likely to remain a welcoming environment for them.


But putting aside their nakedness or how hot they are, do I support the right of girls that have fled crushing poverty in other countries to try to support themselves here as best they can? Yes I do. And do I support the efforts of single mothers to keep as much as they can squeeze out of the shifts that they can manage to work so that they can provide the best lives possible for themselves and their children? You're damned right I do. I'm not going any further down this road as it is becoming political, which is generally prohibited on this board, but there it is.

Fine way to avoid owning the endpoint of your position: 'I think this and this, but we certainly can't discuss what that actually means because I don't want to get political, so though I'm unable or unwilling to follow the logical progression of my own opinion, I stand by it'. Again, noted. But allow me: you are either a proponent of tax fraud and illegal immigration in general, or just when it has the capacity to provide entertainment for you.

The women you know who are illegal immigrants have obviously already provided some kind of paperwork indicating that they have a right to work at these clubs; that's unlikely to change.

Whether a substantial chunk of a single mother's income goes to the club or the government is immaterial in regards to the amount she would take home, and allowing that dancers usually make a considerable bit more than they would working a regular hourly-wage job, usually by working far fewer hours, we're really in no danger of compromising their ability to provide good lives for their children.

Servers and bartenders are treated as employees, and it's up to them to decide how much of their tips they actually declare; it's virtually impossible to verify whether they've declared everything, and that, also, is unlikely to change for dancers.

None of the change I suggest for the industry has any actual bearing on the points you've brought up; you've failed to offer any information to the contrary.

Kellydancer
11-11-2011, 12:46 PM
See, this wasn't my experience. In the 90's there used to be shift requirements but by early 2000's, down here, anyone could come and go when they wanted at almost every club. I danced at one place on the east coast that would waive a house fee if you scheduled yourself 3X a week...and actually showed up. But then that club fined girls for all kinds of bullshit (not me, I'm perfect, lol).

So....ya can't win. I've worked at a few clubs that for a while decided that dancers only had to pay a house fee and no tipping out allowed, not to DJ, bouncers, no one. That was a sweet gig because if you got there early, like around 5pm, it was only $15-20 to work. And everyone was really nice too, even without getting tipped, because the club was paying them a living wage, and not depending on the dancers to support the staff.

:D Hopper

Yoda you still owe me a trip to the SC. The girl I had picked out for you moved away so we need to hunt for a replacement. ;D

We're just friends and he's never spent more than a couple of bucks for drinks on me. I truly like the guy, and so does everyone else here, for a reason. He's not an ass kissing bridge dweller, he's a super cool chill guy who works hard, adores women, and just doesn't have a bunch of weird issues or barely hidden misoginey brewing.

Besides, why wouldn't I say nice things about my friends? Both IRL and online?

Luckily I had other options so when this club pulled working 5 days I found a better club. I planned to anyway because this club concentrated on selling VIPs (and the rumor was the guys expecting sex being the area).

I've worked at clubs with all different set ups and personally found I made the most at clubs with a small house fee and no to little tipping of only a few staff members. I remember one club you had to tip EVERYONE from the manager to the barback to the kitchen staff. That I didn't like it.


Btw, I envy you for having met Yoda.

lemiwinks31
11-11-2011, 12:52 PM
I want pics if/when it happens.


with rick dugan sneaking in from behind and burying a couple of digits in the mud.

yoda57us
11-11-2011, 03:31 PM
Yoda you still owe me a trip to the SC. The girl I had picked out for you moved away so we need to hunt for a replacement. ;D

Definitely on my bucket list! Hunting for a replacement sounds like an arduous task...but I think we can handle it!;)


We're just friends and he's never spent more than a couple of bucks for drinks on me. I truly like the guy, and so does everyone else here, for a reason. He's not an ass kissing bridge dweller, he's a super cool chill guy who works hard, adores women, and just doesn't have a bunch of weird issues or barely hidden misoginey brewing.

Besides, why wouldn't I say nice things about my friends? Both IRL and online?

I have nothing to add here...I just really enjoy reading it...:)

FeministStripper
11-11-2011, 05:50 PM
Your characterization of what I want for the industry and why I want it seems based more on your desire to disagree than actual ideological objection. It's tiring trying to keep you on track. Obviously you like things the way they are, and don't see the need for change. Noted. Please note in turn that I've managed to respond to your actual points without making inaccurate and unflattering speculations about your motivations.

In fairness, I should have said that until I made the speculation quoted above, I had refrained from doing so.

rickdugan
11-12-2011, 12:44 PM
No, you're not calling it what it is. You're calling it as you've incorrectly interpreted it. We clearly don't agree, and you insist on spinning what I say just slightly, offering little tiny strawmen rather than genuine responses. Your characterization of what I want for the industry and why I want it seems based more on your desire to disagree than actual ideological objection. It's tiring trying to keep you on track.

LOL. As far as I can tell, the only track you seem to be on is a continuous "things must change because they must" loop. My only goal is to discuss the potential consequences of these changes, a discussion which you seem not to be overly eager to have. You have deflected 3 times now when I laid out what I believe were fair points, the first two times by claiming that I could not possibly understand the ramifications of employer/employee dynamics on dancers because I am not one and, the third time, by asking me whether I support tax fraud and illegal immigration. What else am I supposed to think other than that you don't really care?


So: most clubs already require proof of employability, just as other businesses do; no part of the reform that I desire would change that.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in that perhaps the clubs that you dealt with did require proof of employability, but I don't think that this is the case with many clubs. Since these girls are ICs and the clubs generally do not issue them 1099s, the only requirement they currently have is to ensure that girls are old enough to offer their services to the club. A Chilean or Russian passport works just as well as a state driver's license for this purpose.

As far as the rest of your commentary on these changes not having an effect on girls with criminal records and immigration issues, I'm not sure what else I can say. Your response relating to ex cons was speculation that clubs are going to throw caution to the wind and hire ex-cons, despite the liability issues involved, with zero reasoning behind it. Your response to the impacts of requiring clubs to verify employability was to speculate that they are already doing so voluntarily and that vast numbers of immigrants working in these clubs are already providing forged documents. Ok, if you are really willing to believe these things, as counterintuitive as they are, then there really is nowhere else to go in the conversation.


Fine way to avoid owning the endpoint of your position: 'I think this and this, but we certainly can't discuss what that actually means because I don't want to get political, so though I'm unable or unwilling to follow the logical progression of my own opinion, I stand by it'. Again, noted. But allow me: you are either a proponent of tax fraud and illegal immigration in general, or just when it has the capacity to provide entertainment for you..

I've already made my position pretty clear in my statement. What more were you expecting me to say? And what was the purpose of asking that question to begin with unless you were trying to demonize the supposed "tax frauds" and "illegal immigrants", thereby diminishing any concerns over what might happen to people who fell into these categories. Hey, if your position is that you are not concerned about the issues I raised because you believe that tax fraud and illegal immigration should be stopped anyway, just be direct and say so. I might not agree with your position, but it would certainly be more honest than the passive aggressive tapdance that spitting that question out represented.


Whether a substantial chunk of a single mother's income goes to the club or the government is immaterial in regards to the amount she would take home, and allowing that dancers usually make a considerable bit more than they would working a regular hourly-wage job, usually by working far fewer hours, we're really in no danger of compromising their ability to provide good lives for their children.

Servers and bartenders are treated as employees, and it's up to them to decide how much of their tips they actually declare; it's virtually impossible to verify whether they've declared everything, and that, also, is unlikely to change for dancers.

The rest of this has been raised and answered. My points have been that the tradeoffs would not equal out. I laid out my reasons for this, including the various additional costs in previous posts, along with my belief that the benvolent club owners that seem to exist in your world are not, amazingly, going to willingly eat all of these costs by themselves. If you want to support your statements, you might want to start with what has already been posted on this topic.



None of the change I suggest for the industry has any actual bearing on the points you've brought up; you've failed to offer any information to the contrary.

I want some of whatever you are smoking. ;)

yoda57us
11-12-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm hesitant to wade into this quagmire but I have observed first hand what happens when dancers sue a club, the dancers win, and they become employees rather than IC's. It's happened in at least two Mass clubs in the last couple of years and there is a suit pending in a third. In both settled cases once the dancers were re-classified they were then required to provide proof of employability status. Since many of the dancers in both of these clubs were foreign dancers of questionable citizenship most of the day shifts in both cubs were forced to leave and work elsewhere. The few remaining dancers in both clubs suffered from the loss of girls as customers pretty much stopped coming in. This happened in two different clubs about two years apart. The first club never really recovered. The second club is OK at night but on life-support during the day. In both cases the now-illegal "house fees" were replaced by locker fees. The girls receive a servers wage of roughly 2.65 an hour. They get to keep most of the price of a private dance but since there are fewer customers buying them dancer income has plumeted.

In all my years of clubbing I have yet to meet a dancer in my part of the country who would rather be an employee than in IC. I know girls who have left Mass clubs just hearing they might have their status changed.

Dancing has always been an "immediate gratification" kind of job. Girls want their money now and they are, quite frankly, looking out for number one and no one else, not now, not ever.

Right or wrong that's the way it seems to be. Being a dancer is not for everyone. The girls who are very successful at it manage to work within the system that exists and maximize their revenue. The girls that are bad at it go do something else. It's a process of natural selection to some degree. Not everyone is cut out to do every kind of job.

FeministStripper
11-12-2011, 02:22 PM
I've already made my position pretty clear in my statement. What more were you expecting me to say? And what was the purpose of asking that question to begin with unless you were trying to demonize the supposed "tax frauds" and "illegal immigrants", thereby diminishing any concerns over what might happen to people who fell into these categories. Hey, if your position is that you are not concerned about the issues I raised because you believe that tax fraud and illegal immigration should be stopped anyway, just be direct and say so. I might not agree with your position, but it would certainly be more honest than the passive aggressive tapdance that spitting that question out represented.

I'm not home much today, but I'll address this for now. When discussing needed industry reform, how it will affect those whose activities in that industry are illegal is an ancillary concern, at best. I'm not taking a position on tax fraud OR illegal immigration in their own right, just pointing out that when discussing the rights of workers, the main focus is usually on the average, legitimately employable people in the industry. The plight of illegal immigrants or those who wish to increase their income through fraud dilutes the issue. So, your position seems to be that the majority of the women in this industry should continue to tolerate exploitative inequities so that those who wish to manipulate the system or circumvent it altogether can continue to do so. I think it's perfectly fair, then, to ask if you believe that tax fraud is acceptable in other areas of industry and whether you advocate the employment of illegal immigrants in general regardless of the effects of those activities on legitimate workers, or if those activities are only kosher with you when they involve sexy women who turn you on. If that's the case, perhaps YOU might 'just be direct and say so'.

Too, the fact that any given industry will have to make financial adjustments when it's forced to stop exploiting its workers and that those costs will be passed on to either the consumer or the workers rather than absorbed by the industry itself is as old as time. The sex industry remains lucrative even in times of financial depression; it takes a hit, but a relatively small one, comparatively speaking. So, you're right: the notion that the poor poor club owners might have to tighten their belts a trifle and rely more on the inflated drink prices that the presence of beautiful nude women allows them to charge isn't the most compelling reason to maintain the status quo.

tcqueen83
11-12-2011, 06:14 PM
I'm not a man but I've always been very selective and the men I've been with has too. The number one reason I and men I'm with turn down lap dances is if the dancer just comes up and says "do you want a dance?". Or if they come up, make small talk, and then in five minutes say "you want a dance". I know it's their job but I nor the people I've been with want to give up our money that easily. If we are charged 50.00 or more for 5 minutes we want to make sure the dancer works for the money. It's only fair. Plus, we want to be sure we like the dancer's personality. Looks are only so much, personality is a bigger turn on. A girl who has a cool personality you wonder "hmm...what does she look like under there?".

So, we/I have sat in clubs for two to three hours with no dances and dancer after dancer comes up. We might pay for a couple dances from one or two girls by the nights end. But, we've spent tons on drinks and food for the club. I know it sucks, but dances aren't cheap. However, to get an idea of what each dancer looks like/how they dance we go to the stage and tip small amounts of money while they dance, if we like their dance style/body. So, for us, if we tip them at the stage a few times/larger bills it's a pretty good sign we would agree to a dance.

CherryPepper
11-12-2011, 08:40 PM
^ @ "We want to make sure the dancer works for her money." WTF? Don't say that shit ...ever. We are talking our clothes off and dancing. I understand if you want to get to know her first or whatever, but even if she says "wanna dance?" and you agree she is still WORKING. 5 minutes of talking before hand is generous...if you want to have more personal time (even just talking) you need to tip appropriately.

tcqueen83
11-12-2011, 09:19 PM
^ @ "We want to make sure the dancer works for her money." WTF? Don't say that shit ...ever. We are talking our clothes off and dancing. I understand if you want to get to know her first or whatever, but even if she says "wanna dance?" and you agree she is still WORKING. 5 minutes of talking before hand is generous...if you want to have more personal time (even just talking) you need to tip appropriately.I think you took my comment wrongly. Definitely tip for conversation or buy them drinks of they want. I'm just saying that I've had a lot of dancers just come up and ask for a dance and not even try what so ever to "sell" the dance. I understand that dancers are there for hours and walk around working the room, but when someone blows a dancer off it may be because the dancer presented the offer as in just a money making scheme. Which IS what it is. However, people aren't willing to let go of a lot of money for that reason.

CherryPepper
11-12-2011, 09:50 PM
^ It's not a money making scheme...it's a job. & I get what you are saying but still don't ever say that in real life or on a stripper forum (Make her work for her $$). It is the most demeaning thing you can say to a stripper imo.

Kellydancer
11-12-2011, 10:10 PM
Yeah I found the whole "make her work for her money" complete bullshit and demeaning. It's bad enough strippers are doing things that most women don't, like get naked, or in some cases have a sense of intimacy with complete strangers (I don't mean sex, just the touching and what not), but to have strippers "work" for that? No way. I haven't been to a strip club in years as a customer but everytime I have gone with guy friends I always tipped dancers and usually bought my friends a dance or more. Maybe I am more generous because I know how it is, but never expected any dancer to "work" for tips. I am not talking about the previous comment, thinking of the guys in the clubs that expected me to sit with them THEN decided no after wasting my time.

Here's one positive about making sure girls are not illegals and that is cutting down on the sex slave trade. This is a problem in many Chicago clubs and has been since I was dancing. With the way many clubs are many of these girls are sent here and work as slaves.

rickdugan
11-13-2011, 05:13 AM
I'm not home much today, but I'll address this for now. When discussing needed industry reform, how it will affect those whose activities in that industry are illegal is an ancillary concern, at best. I'm not taking a position on tax fraud OR illegal immigration in their own right, just pointing out that when discussing the rights of workers, the main focus is usually on the average, legitimately employable people in the industry.

Well, I sincerely thank you for stating your position on this. We might not agree on this, but your willingness to put a flag in the ground is far preferable to pretending that these types would not be negatively affected by the changes that you support.

But as I asked you before, you do realize, do you not, that when you add up all of these people you are talking about a meaningful, and perhaps even a solid majority, of all of the girls dancing today? Is it any wonder why these girls have no interest in organizing and 'legitimizing" their employment status?


Too, the fact that any given industry will have to make financial adjustments when it's forced to stop exploiting its workers and that those costs will be passed on to either the consumer or the workers rather than absorbed by the industry itself is as old as time. The sex industry remains lucrative even in times of financial depression; it takes a hit, but a relatively small one, comparatively speaking. So, you're right: the notion that the poor poor club owners might have to tighten their belts a trifle and rely more on the inflated drink prices that the presence of beautiful nude women allows them to charge isn't the most compelling reason to maintain the status quo.


No, for all of the reasons I previously mentioned, the changes could drastically impact the finances of the existing dancer population.

And even putting aside the girls who would not be able to work in clubs at all, I will reiterate the main points:

1. All of those horrible tax cheats, which are likely a significant percentage of dancers today, would now be forced to pay taxes and would lose child and other state benefits;
2. Club owners are not going to eat these increased operating costs by themselves; and
3. Enforcing existing employment laws in a SC environment would require drastic changes to many of the existing operating models, which will result in yet fewer customers and yet lower earnings.

I think that the examples provided by Yoda above are telling and make perfect sense. When those clubs changed over to the statutory employee model, most of the dancers hightailed it out of Dodge, no doubt so that they could go to places that would more fully exploit them. ;) The Lucky Lady, the very club that you raised, is another telling example of what happens when a club has to operate in an employer/employee environment.

Now if you believe that the dancer income tradeoffs are a fair price to pay in order to end the "exploitation", then fine. But I strongly suspect that a number of the existing dancers would not agree.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 10:03 AM
^ It's not a money making scheme...it's a job. & I get what you are saying but still don't ever say that in real life or on a stripper forum (Make her work for her $$). It is the most demeaning thing you can say to a stripper imo.
I don't get the demeaning part. We all have to work for our money. But if myself or anyone else is going to shell out hundreds or even a hundred dollars to someone for a few minutes of grindage they definitely have to "work" for it. Stripping is hard in that you have to put up with B.S. but mostly it's banking on the desperation/stupidity/lonliness of a majority of customers. The rest just go there to have a good time and see naked ladies. It's not rocket science and it doesn't require a degree. You don't work in an environment that's harsh or one that puts you in relative danger, other than that of a possible stalker. There was lady in my town who was a stripper who was killed by a guy she met at her club. The hardest part is just having the confidence to take off your clothes, but that's not "hard". And stripping IS a money making scheme. It's not anything that anyone needs and it's not really a service because nobody gets anything out of it. Prostitution, yes, that's a job. You are selling a product. Car salesmen are selling a needed product. It's a scheme because the way you make the money is by pretending to the customer. You pretend you like them, you change your personality to be some fantasy that they want, you even use a stage name, and that person NEVER gets to sleep with you. It is a money making scheme, which is ok, but no reason to church it up and make it something it's not. It's banking on someones insecurities or hornyness.

Aurora_Sunset
11-13-2011, 10:31 AM
I don't get the demeaning part. We all have to work for our money. But if myself or anyone else is going to shell out hundreds or even a hundred dollars to someone for a few minutes of grindage they definitely have to "work" for it. Stripping is hard in that you have to put up with B.S. but mostly it's banking on the desperation/stupidity/lonliness of a majority of customers. The rest just go there to have a good time and see naked ladies. It's not rocket science and it doesn't require a degree. You don't work in an environment that's harsh or one that puts you in relative danger, other than that of a possible stalker. There was lady in my town who was a stripper who was killed by a guy she met at her club. The hardest part is just having the confidence to take off your clothes, but that's not "hard". And stripping IS a money making scheme. It's not anything that anyone needs and it's not really a service because nobody gets anything out of it. Prostitution, yes, that's a job. You are selling a product. Car salesmen are selling a needed product. It's a scheme because the way you make the money is by pretending to the customer. You pretend you like them, you change your personality to be some fantasy that they want, you even use a stage name, and that person NEVER gets to sleep with you. It is a money making scheme, which is ok, but no reason to church it up and make it something it's not. It's banking on someones insecurities or hornyness.

This whole paragraph is so demeaning and full of fail, I don't even know where to start. You're either a troll or a jealous woman who wishes she had what it takes to be a stripper. You sound like a girl I used to work with at a serving job - she loved going in to see strippers but then she would bash them for being "dumb bitches" - essentially what I see you doing. You could totally tell that she wished she could be some sort of showgirl or stripper but she was very overweight and not attractive and could never be one. The jealousy shows... ::) And all your posts about how desperate and lonely most SC patrons are and how we con them out of money and how it's not "hard" to do what we do absolutely reeks of it.

And with that, I'm not even going to bother engaging in a back-and-forth where I lay out exactly how demeaning and wrong you are, and you tell me what a dumb whore I am and how if I really wanted what I do to be considered "work" that I should go prostitute myself, and yada yada yada

I just don't have it in me right now to deal with ridiculous dialogue with a jackass who comes to a stripper support site and then insults the strippers by telling them that they're stupid con-artists that are doing a job that "anybody could do" and that only prostitutes do real work.... Yeah, you're gonna make a lot of friends here... ::) The part about the environment not being harsh was absolute gold that I'm sure all the dancers will love. Lmao

"I don't get the demeaning part. All I did was tell you that you don't have a real job that requires any sort of skills and you con lonely men out of their money... derp dee do - how am I being insulting???" LOL

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 11:04 AM
This whole paragraph is so demeaning and full of fail, I don't even know where to start. You're either a troll or a jealous woman who wishes she had what it takes to be a stripper. You sound like a girl I used to work with at a serving job - she loved going in to see strippers but then she would bash them for being "dumb bitches" - essentially what I see you doing. You could totally tell that she wished she could be some sort of showgirl or stripper but she was very overweight and not attractive and could never be one. The jealousy shows... ::) And all your posts about how desperate and lonely most SC patrons are and how we con them out of money and how it's not "hard" to do what we do absolutely reeks of it.

And with that, I'm not even going to bother engaging in a back-and-forth where I lay out exactly how demeaning and wrong you are, and you tell me what a dumb whore I am and how if I really wanted what I do to be considered "work" that I should go prostitute myself, and yada yada yada

I just don't have it in me right now to deal with ridiculous dialogue with a jackass who comes to a stripper support site and then insults the strippers by telling them that they're stupid con-artists that are doing a job that "anybody could do" and that only prostitutes do real work.... Yeah, you're gonna make a lot of friends here... ::) The part about the environment not being harsh was absolute gold that I'm sure all the dancers will love. Lmao

"I don't get the demeaning part. All I did was tell you that you don't have a real job that requires any sort of skills and you con lonely men out of their money... derp dee do - how am I being insulting???" LOL
I'm not jealous. I never said anything negative. If dancers worked at McDonalds flipping burgers and came home complaining, I'd still say "it's not like it's a real job." and trust me, I'm not jealous that I'm not flipping burgers like they are. I also never said they were "dumb" but it doesn't take a degree and that's no lie. I have friends that went to college with me who danced to put themselves through school.

I'm not overweight or old and no self esteem issues here. I'm stating the obvious. Don't automatically assume that if someone says something that you don't like that they are jealous. Not everything comes from jealousy. People were complaining that people don't buy lap dances sometimes and just blow the girls off. Think about it, you are not providing sex. You are just grinding on someone. A person can pay a few hundred for an escort. What can you do for them? It's a valid thought. 20 bucks for a dance is pretty typical but for the whole champagne room type deal or multiple dances, most people are going to want something more than grindage. When do you ever buy a product and it doesn't entail the sales person having to jump through hoops to make you buy it? A car salesman works on a customer for sometimes hours and maybe they make a sale, maybe not. I used to sell gym memberships and it's the same deal. People aren't going to give up their money easily for anything. And if they do, they are not smart.

And yes, it's about taking advantage of people through exploitation of their weaknesses. That's what all sales jobs do, not just dancing.

Aurora_Sunset
11-13-2011, 11:16 AM
I'd still say "it's not like it's a real job."

Regardless of your motives or jealousy/non-jealousy, that statement right there is what makes you a total asshole to all strippers. Your "brutal honesty" crosses the line right there. The fact that you think you never said anything negative is just adorable and hilarious. If you could step down off your pedestal for a second, you might be able to see the demeaning nature of pretty much all your comments here. Just because you're a woman doesn't give you a free pass here, and I'm not even sure you really are one. You just sound like a troll. I can tell you won't last long here so I won't even bother continuing.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 11:34 AM
Regardless of your motives or jealousy/non-jealousy, that statement right there is what makes you a total asshole to all strippers. Your "brutal honesty" crosses the line right there. The fact that you think you never said anything negative is just adorable and hilarious. If you could step down off your pedestal for a second, you might be able to see the demeaning nature of pretty much all your comments here. Just because you're a woman doesn't give you a free pass here, and I'm not even sure you really are one. You just sound like a troll. I can tell you won't last long here so I won't even bother continuing.
Not a troll. Yes, I'm brutally honest and a lot of people aren't happy about it. I've been known to come off as an a hole in real life. Not that I try. Just stating the obvious as to why many people don't get lap dances from a dancer if they don't create rapport. The thing I find very interesting is that there seems to be a lot of going back and forth. You see threads were girls are like "OMG my regular 70 something sugar daddy came back and this time gave me a diamond ring" and then when someone says "yes, it's because he's old and lonely and you exploit that" then automatically someone gets offended. Do I think it's bad you do that? NO. I don't. That's your job, exploiting peoples insecurities in the form of a cash payment. To some it'd be immoral, but I'm not a religiously morally superior person who looks down on sex work, in all actuality I'm an atheist. So i don't care if you tell fat men who smell like BO that they are the hottest things on the planet if it makes you money. But don't get offended at the truth. I know you do not want to spend copious amounts of time with someone just to get turned down for a dance. You have wasted your time which = money. But.... that's what sales people do and yes people want you to kiss their butt before they lay down hundreds of dollars. I probably would haven never chosen to buy my car at the place in which I bought it if it hadn't been for the fact the sales guy spent 3 hours with us giving us his personal attention and bought us lunch to "talk it over". He ended up with a customer, at the end of the day, who paid 100% cash for a new car. His time was worth it. Same goes for dancing.

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 11:59 AM
1. All of those horrible tax cheats, which are likely a significant percentage of dancers today, would now be forced to pay taxes and would lose child and other state benefits;

Good, I hope these tax cheats are all caught. I for one am tired of paying them and most people should be tired of them. They make a mockery of the system and freeloaders like them are why many hate the system. I have turned in a few and would keep doing this because every cheat means I pay more in taxes.



2. Club owners are not going to eat these increased operating costs by themselves; and
3. Enforcing existing employment laws in a SC environment would require drastic changes to many of the existing operating models, which will result in yet fewer customers and yet lower earnings.

What increased costs? Do you mean wages? If so, maybe this will mean that these clubs will stop hiring all the dancers they do, especially the ones who shouldn't be dancing.



I think that the examples provided by Yoda above are telling and make perfect sense. When those clubs changed over to the statutory employee model, most of the dancers hightailed it out of Dodge, no doubt so that they could go to places that would more fully exploit them. ;) The Lucky Lady, the very club that you raised, is another telling example of what happens when a club has to operate in an employer/employee environment.

Now if you believe that the dancer income tradeoffs are a fair price to pay in order to end the "exploitation", then fine. But I strongly suspect that a number of the existing dancers would not agree.

I have worked both paid and clubs where I pay house and made far more in the clubs where I paid. Maybe it was because they hired quality dancers or maybe because the customers were better. I've seen this pattern. On the other hand some clubs do get greedy and charge ridiculous house fees and don't have the customers. I suspect the majority of the clubs put out of business will be these clubs and I say good riddance. My issue isn't really paid versus non paid but rather exploitative versus non. I didn't have a problem paying, especially if I was making a ton. However I resented it when the clubs had strict rules (and keep in mind I am a very clean dancer)or charged way more than they should for the type of club it was. I resented when the club was making more off me than I was. I resented when I had to pay a staff member even though they did nothing to help me make money.

However, my only fear is this will mean require licenses or some form of verification in clubs and I would hate for employers to know I was a dancer. That's my major problem with this. On the other hand the industry is out of control and there are lots of disgusitng club owners. There was one local guy who went to prison for tax evasion because he wasn't claiming taxes and this clubs was one of the most expensive clubs to work at.

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 12:07 PM
Regardless of your motives or jealousy/non-jealousy, that statement right there is what makes you a total asshole to all strippers. Your "brutal honesty" crosses the line right there. The fact that you think you never said anything negative is just adorable and hilarious. If you could step down off your pedestal for a second, you might be able to see the demeaning nature of pretty much all your comments here. Just because you're a woman doesn't give you a free pass here, and I'm not even sure you really are one. You just sound like a troll. I can tell you won't last long here so I won't even bother continuing.

This whole "it's not a job" really bothers me because it IS a job. "Her" comment about McDonalds not being a job either are just mean because some people have no other choice but to work there. I bet it's really a man, I'm thinking one of the idiots who was recently banned.

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 04:30 PM
When those clubs changed over to the statutory employee model, most of the dancers hightailed it out of Dodge, no doubt so that they could go to places that would more fully exploit them. ;)

As I said before, Mr. Dugan, my idea of 'reform' is not necessarily to change over to the employee format, but simply to go with one or the other - employee or contractor, rather than a hybrid that serves the club and not the dancer. If they're contractors, then let them operate as such instead of saddling them with 'employee' obligations. Other businesses are obliged to operate with respect for the rights of their workers; I doubt the sex industry is so crippled that it would be unable to make the adjustment.

I'm not sure I concur with your assessment of the numbers. When I first started in the business it was under a straight 'employee' format, and there were plenty of women who, like wait-staff, simply did not declare all their tips, paid taxes on some and maintained their eligibility for federal aid such as food stamps and ADC. The number of women with criminal records was modest, and I saw no 'liability issues' that interfered with their employability. I've worked outside the industry as well and have encountered plenty of people with criminal records who had also been hired. They work in hospitality, in the service industry, in retail and construction and medical care - and the adult biz. They've paid their debt to society and have returned to being productive members of it. I don't see why that would be different for dancers.

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Stripping is hard in that you have to put up with B.S. but mostly it's banking on the desperation/stupidity/lonliness of a majority of customers. The rest just go there to have a good time and see naked ladies. It's not rocket science and it doesn't require a degree.

Or it's charging a reasonable fee for the normal, red-blooded desire to see naked women and have the right to erotic recreation. Construction work, food service, taking your ticket at the movie theatre - none of those are rocket science, either; so?


And stripping IS a money making scheme. It's not anything that anyone needs and it's not really a service because nobody gets anything out of it. Prostitution, yes, that's a job. You are selling a product. Car salesmen are selling a needed product. It's a scheme because the way you make the money is by pretending to the customer. You pretend you like them, you change your personality to be some fantasy that they want, you even use a stage name, and that person NEVER gets to sleep with you. It is a money making scheme, which is ok, but no reason to church it up and make it something it's not. It's banking on someones insecurities or hornyness.

So, making movies isn't really a job, either, because it's pretending. And working at a miniature golf range, for example, that's not work because it's not a needed service. No one really NEEDS a massage - most people didn't even knew what they WERE fifty years ago, but people sure feel better when they get one, don't they? And what makes liquor a product, then, and bartending 'work'? Why is that product different than attention and sexy fun - except that a lapdance doesn't impair your ability to drive afterward? And what about the strippers who don't pretend, who believe that being beautiful and graceful and naked and available for friendly conversation and attention is enough? We're not selling sex, we're selling stimulation, titillation, excitement, entertainment (those ARE products, by the way) - so the fact that the customer never gets to sleep with us is really beside the point.


And yes, it's about taking advantage of people through exploitation of their weaknesses. That's what all sales jobs do, not just dancing.


Oh, wait - but you just called sales a 'job'. And don't you have to have a product to sell? Who are you to decide what people need? It's arguable, too, that all capitalist ventures, in their way, take advantage of human weakness. That's what marketing is. Maybe that's not a 'job' either? Or does it qualify as work because you need a degree in that particular type of 'exploitation'?

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 05:26 PM
Or it's charging a reasonable fee for the normal, red-blooded desire to see naked women and have the right to erotic recreation. Construction work, food service, taking your ticket at the movie theatre - none of those are rocket science, either; so?



So, making movies isn't really a job, either, because it's pretending. And working at a miniature golf range, for example, that's not work because it's not a needed service. No one really NEEDS a massage - most people didn't even knew what they WERE fifty years ago, but people sure feel better when they get one, don't they? And what makes liquor a product, then, and bartending 'work'? Why is that product different than attention and sexy fun - except that a lapdance doesn't impair your ability to drive afterward? And what about the strippers who don't pretend, who believe that being beautiful and graceful and naked and available for friendly conversation and attention is enough? We're not selling sex, we're selling stimulation, titillation, excitement, entertainment (those ARE products, by the way) - so the fact that the customer never gets to sleep with us is really beside the point.




Oh, wait - but you just called sales a 'job'. And don't you have to have a product to sell? Who are you to decide what people need? It's arguable, too, that all capitalist ventures, in their way, take advantage of human weakness. That's what marketing is. Maybe that's not a 'job' either? Or does it qualify as work because you need a degree in that particular type of 'exploitation'?
I've always considered real jobs as any job in which someone must obtain a degree or specialized training in order to do such a job or a job that is needed in order for society to function and such job is one in which one can retire having topped out making at least triple what they made when they began. There are many non needed jobs that result from a capitalist country that aren't a "real job" and are just there for pleasure or luxury. I never had a real job until after I graduated college. I'm pretty sure had I kept my job at the gym for the rest of my life my parents would have been nagging me "why don't you get a real job?" as they do with my brother who works on an assembly line for a brake company. Some seem to get offended if you consider dancing a sales job. Or if you consider it not a real job. It's not. It's a job, it makes money, but will you be able to retire? After a woman is old can she still make the same amount of money or more? Are you covered by workers compensation? Does your company offer you 401K's? Vacations or stock options. A real job has security, and while the sex industry is definitely a secure profession and isn't going anywhere, dancing won't make much money for old ladies.

It's OK, really. So what if it's not a real job? And? For the time being milk it for what it's worth. But, people who aren't honest about what they do should probably have a realization. And a lot of people get upset at not being treated with dignity but the thing is, changing your personality to lie to a patron in order to get them so horny they will give you money doesn't exactly constitute respect. Being honest and being yourself does, whether or not you are grinding for money isn't the issue. Being beautiful, naked and open for friendly conversation isn't really enough because nobody is going to pay large sums of money for a conversation. And when that doesn't happen the dancer gets upset because time=money. They could have been doing dances for that time and made much more. It seems the hassles related to the field are too great for the payout. A masters degree can earn someone well over 100 grand per year depending on the field. Seems like people would rather just be poor for a few years and get a job making more money than a dancer (except for the super lucky high end dancers) and not have to deal with things like the humiliation or the drama or the other bull that goes along with it. And apparently it's not a hazard free job as you have to deal with crazy patrons who might hurt you, owners of clubs who might expect sexual favors or bouncers who might expect sexual favors, rude customers, bitchy wives, etc. Do they pay you hazard pay? Do they even drug test? It's been my experience a job can be defined as a real job or not by whether or not the drug test. And if you were to ask me if a bartender, mini golf course attendant were a real job I'd say no. They are not jobs that will generate long term wealth and security.

yoda57us
11-13-2011, 05:33 PM
I don't get the demeaning part. We all have to work for our money. But if myself or anyone else is going to shell out hundreds or even a hundred dollars to someone for a few minutes of grindage they definitely have to "work" for it. Stripping is hard in that you have to put up with B.S. but mostly it's banking on the desperation/stupidity/lonliness of a majority of customers. The rest just go there to have a good time and see naked ladies. It's not rocket science and it doesn't require a degree. You don't work in an environment that's harsh or one that puts you in relative danger, other than that of a possible stalker. There was lady in my town who was a stripper who was killed by a guy she met at her club. The hardest part is just having the confidence to take off your clothes, but that's not "hard". And stripping IS a money making scheme. It's not anything that anyone needs and it's not really a service because nobody gets anything out of it. Prostitution, yes, that's a job. You are selling a product. Car salesmen are selling a needed product. It's a scheme because the way you make the money is by pretending to the customer. You pretend you like them, you change your personality to be some fantasy that they want, you even use a stage name, and that person NEVER gets to sleep with you. It is a money making scheme, which is ok, but no reason to church it up and make it something it's not. It's banking on someones insecurities or hornyness.

It's amazing that someone who is not a dancer could have such a firm handle on what the job is all about...::)

Thank you though. The next time a female customer comes on this site wondering why so many dancers won't go near couples we can just point her in the direction of your posts...

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 05:40 PM
Yoda you are an honorary dancer.

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 05:44 PM
I've always considered real jobs as any job in which someone must obtain a degree or specialized training in order to do such a job or a job that is needed in order for society to function and such job is one in which one can retire having topped out making at least triple what they made when they began. There are many non needed jobs that result from a capitalist country that aren't a "real job" and are just there for pleasure or luxury. I never had a real job until after I graduated college. I'm pretty sure had I kept my job at the gym for the rest of my life my parents would have been nagging me "why don't you get a real job?" as they do with my brother who works on an assembly line for a brake company. Some seem to get offended if you consider dancing a sales job. Or if you consider it not a real job. It's not. It's a job, it makes money, but will you be able to retire? After a woman is old can she still make the same amount of money or more? Are you covered by workers compensation? Does your company offer you 401K's? Vacations or stock options. A real job has security, and while the sex industry is definitely a secure profession and isn't going anywhere, dancing won't make much money for old ladies.

It's OK, really. So what if it's not a real job? And? For the time being milk it for what it's worth. But, people who aren't honest about what they do should probably have a realization. And a lot of people get upset at not being treated with dignity but the thing is, changing your personality to lie to a patron in order to get them so horny they will give you money doesn't exactly constitute respect. Being honest and being yourself does, whether or not you are grinding for money isn't the issue. Being beautiful, naked and open for friendly conversation isn't really enough because nobody is going to pay large sums of money for a conversation. And when that doesn't happen the dancer gets upset because time=money. They could have been doing dances for that time and made much more. It seems the hassles related to the field are too great for the payout. A masters degree can earn someone well over 100 grand per year depending on the field. Seems like people would rather just be poor for a few years and get a job making more money than a dancer (except for the super lucky high end dancers) and not have to deal with things like the humiliation or the drama or the other bull that goes along with it. And apparently it's not a hazard free job as you have to deal with crazy patrons who might hurt you, owners of clubs who might expect sexual favors or bouncers who might expect sexual favors, rude customers, bitchy wives, etc. Do they pay you hazard pay? Do they even drug test? It's been my experience a job can be defined as a real job or not by whether or not the drug test. And if you were to ask me if a bartender, mini golf course attendant were a real job I'd say no. They are not jobs that will generate long term wealth and security.

You are very misguided. Any job that pays is a real job. Doesn't matter what one does. I have a masters btw and have never made $100,000 using it and don't know many who do. In this economy having an education means nothing because there are plenty of unemployed/underemployed people. In fact there was an article recently about all these unemployed lawyers working in jobs that don't require a degree. There are many dancers here with degrees who would prefer to dance because they can make more doing that than one of those so called "real jobs".

I think you are a him and I think you are one of the recent banned posters. I am going to ask a mod to run IP on you and see if you match one of the recent banned posters. All of your posts strike me as trollish.

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 05:48 PM
It's a job, it makes money, but will you be able to retire? After a woman is old can she still make the same amount of money or more? Are you covered by workers compensation? Does your company offer you 401K's? Vacations or stock options. A real job has security, and while the sex industry is definitely a secure profession and isn't going anywhere, dancing won't make much money for old ladies.

Oh, I get it! So, cleaning lady, not a job. Waiter, not a job. Massage therapist, hairdresser, housepainter, retail salesperson, not jobs. Got it.


And a lot of people get upset at not being treated with dignity but the thing is, changing your personality to lie to a patron in order to get them so horny they will give you money doesn't exactly constitute respect. Being honest and being yourself does, whether or not you are grinding for money isn't the issue. Being beautiful, naked and open for friendly conversation isn't really enough because nobody is going to pay large sums of money for a conversation. And when that doesn't happen the dancer gets upset because time=money.

Sorry, but you're wrong. That's how I made my living all the years I danced. Same person inside the club and out, worked in the same community where I grew up and participated in many other activities in which I often encountered my customers. Made plenty of money and had a great time. Knew a lot of other dancers that did it just the same way. You'd be surprised: being naked, pretty and friendly is plenty.


Do they pay you hazard pay? Do they even drug test? It's been my experience a job can be defined as a real job or not by whether or not the drug test. And if you were to ask me if a bartender, mini golf course attendant were a real job I'd say no. They are not jobs that will generate long term wealth and security.

Oh! So all the hard-working people who don't get those advantages, they're just not working, according to you. Work doesn't mean time, energy, effort or dedication; it means 'profit'. Good to know.

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 05:50 PM
I'm going to recommend a book for tcqueen and that is Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. It opened up my eyes to all these apparently non real jobs.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 05:51 PM
It's amazing that someone who is not a dancer could have such a firm handle on what the job is all about...::)

Thank you though. The next time a female customer comes on this site wondering why so many dancers won't go near couples we can just point her in the direction of your posts...
Yes, because all females dislike you right? No.

I just said it's not a real job. Like I said, I'd say it to you if you worked at McDonalds and were complaining about your job. It's not a woman thing nor is it a "couples" thing. I ONLY said that because people were complaining about how people don't pay for lap dances and how maybe strippers should stop thinking that having boobs automatically means someone is willing to immediately give you money without having to work for THEIR particular money. And as I said, everyone I've been to a club with whether male/female felt the same. The ones who were like "do you want a dance" and that's all we told them no. But if they came up and hung out for a while and left and kept coming back asking us if we wanted drinks even though they weren't a waitress or asking us if we wanted to play pool with them then they got rewarded heavily at the end of the night. I have even tipped dancers for being cool and hanging out playing pool or cards. As a matter of fact my husband made the comment last night "uh having a vagina isn't automatically going to make me buy a dance from you" after a dancer wanted a dance without even talking to our group the entire night. I've been to many strip clubs, I have a firm handle on what it's about.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 05:58 PM
I'm going to recommend a book for tcqueen and that is Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. It opened up my eyes to all these apparently non real jobs.I've seen that book. I remember it coming up in a women's studies class I had. Yes, it's sad many work in those types of jobs for a lifetime, but it doesn't mean they are "real" jobs. When a person has a child they don't think "I hope my darling grows up to be a waitress and retire at 60 because of health problems and barely have enough to pay their prescriptions for their numerous work related medical issues as a result of living a hard life working jobs that require more physical exertion than monetarily compensated for". They say "boy I want my little darling to be a doctor" or something else. So yes it's sad, but they still aren't real jobs for someone to make a career out of. They are jobs for high school kids or college students. Or a job for extra cash if you have the time to fit it into your schedule. They are not designed to provide.

This is actually a bigger issue in America and it lies in education. Which I've read many strippers are college students. And if you ask many of them they will tell you they are. Not sure I believed many of them but that goes without saying. If you have ever worked in a factory that requires mental stamina as well as physical, you'll find one thing: stupid people. Notoriously corporations hire people who are stupid or have a low IQ as it's much easier to mistreat them than intelligent people. Obviously many low paying jobs are "harder" but harder doesn't always mean you should get paid more. It might be physically hard to stay on your feet for 16 hours a day working for minimum wage, but people are compensated for what they can do for society. It is pretty hard to go to school 4-8 years starving yourself and staying up all night studying. it's not easy. So what are people paid for? Should a waitress make as much as a doctor? No. Because when push comes to shove a doctor is way more valuable to society than a waitress and the doctor was willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and spend 8 years of their life dedicated to their study and can save a persons life. Whereas a waitress maybe trained for a couple days and if push comes to shove, what can she do for society in the event of any emergency? She doesn't even have financial wealth that can be of any benefit. Same goes for lawyers or scientists or engineers. They spend almost a decade studying and a lifetime of learning and their value is way more than anyone in a "working poor" job. So they are compensated as such. And the authors view of drug tests is silly. As a professional she should know that drug tests are commonplace in most jobs in her field of study. I cannot get a job without a drug test or a criminal background check and for good reason. Since what I do could cost a company money and hurt someone, the last thing they want is for me to make a mistake.

Kellydancer
11-13-2011, 06:01 PM
You do realize not everyone has the opportunity to get a better job, right? I did because I had grades and middle class parents and I was able to go to college and graduate school. However, if I was poor I wouldn't. And yes some people like those jobs.

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 06:07 PM
So yes it's sad, but they still aren't real jobs for someone to make a career out of. They are jobs for high school kids or college students. Or a job for extra cash if you have the time to fit it into your schedule. They are not designed to provide.

A job is one thing; many, many, MANY working-class people raise their families that way; cleaning ladies put their kids through college whether or not you would want that for your daughter or not. You're not just denigrating strippers, you're dismissing the hard work of a large percentage of the world.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 06:18 PM
You do realize not everyone has the opportunity to get a better job, right? I did because I had grades and middle class parents and I was able to go to college and graduate school. However, if I was poor I wouldn't. And yes some people like those jobs.I find it interesting you have a master's degree and are a dancer. It seems a job with a masters degree would be much less drama filled than dancing and you would want to get a job in your degree field since you worked so hard for it. And not to be mean, but this is a societal standard, if I were reviewing a CV and someone had dancing on it as a career I'd have to pass it up. Just simply because it would not be looked greatly upon by the professional world outside of dancing. Not that it's right, I personally don't care, but there are standards professionals are judged by that I have no control over.

All Good Things
11-13-2011, 06:25 PM
^ Talk about walking unwittingly into the lion's den. Yikes!

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 06:26 PM
I find it interesting you have a master's degree and are a dancer. It seems a job with a masters degree would be much less drama filled than dancing and you would want to get a job in your degree field since you worked so hard for it.

My best friend did the same thing - got her degree, went to work as a chemist, missed dancing and went back. Happens all the time.


And not to be mean, but this is a societal standard, if I were reviewing a CV and someone had dancing on it as a career I'd have to pass it up. Just simply because it would not be looked greatly upon by the professional world outside of dancing. Not that it's right, I personally don't care, but there are standards professionals are judged by that I have no control over.

But if you're the one doing the hiring, you DO have control over it. Seems like your trouble is pedestrian thinking, that's all. You're just too run-of-the-mill to venture away from the rest of the herd. A shame, that.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 06:30 PM
A job is one thing; many, many, MANY working-class people raise their families that way; cleaning ladies put their kids through college whether or not you would want that for your daughter or not. You're not just denigrating strippers, you're dismissing the hard work of a large percentage of the world. Yes I know they do. And yes, I am. I paid for college myself through loans, grants and work. I starved myself so I'd have money for other things like books. My family could have affordeto pay me 100% but they felt that doing it on my own would help me appreciate it more. And it worked. It made me learn two things about life. People who work low paying jobs were like myself and needed college money or people who had serious issues and couldn't/wouldn't do better. Most were alcoholics or drug addicts. Most were always having to have days off to go to drug court or DUI court. It's not like they could have done better had they tried, because they had made so many mistakes in their life no one in the professional world would hire them. And I once even had a person quit while working on my shift and I told my manager I was shocked and he said "that's ok, anyone who is 30 and is doing this type of job isn't a prize possession of any company because if they were they'd be a career professional".

So it gave me great pride to be able to do what I did on nothing. And it also made me realize that the working poor brings almost everything that happens to them onto themselves. Because I was able to do it with no money, they could too if they wanted to bad enough. And no my parents didn't even buy me a car or pay my rent. And that whole thing about how people are poor and have kids to feed. We have awesome birth control here. People should realize their situation and plan accordingly. I'm a liberal, I support unions and better wages and treatment of the working poor. But, I also think people need to not have kids they can't feed and really need to be a bit more responsible and get an education. I'm not buying the "I can't afford it" excuse. Can they afford to be poor forever? And I'm not going to feel sorry for my waitress or the lady who is obviously above college age who is checking out my groceries for me at the store simply because they are poor. I don't know their story, don't care. But there's no excuse for being that old and doing that kind of job. And as for cleaning houses, which is another point of the book mentioned, I pay a lady to clean my house. She's an older retired lady and she does it for extra money. I pay her well and even pay her for 5 sick days per year. I do not look down on her by any means simply because she cleans my toilets. She gets to watch anything on tv/listen to music, talk on her phone, eat my food/cook her lunch out of my food and drink my drinks. That's how people should be treated by employers. But she's also an honest lady who won't abuse my generosity. Unlike most people who work low paying jobs.

All Good Things
11-13-2011, 06:34 PM
I think you are a him and I think you are one of the recent banned posters. I am going to ask a mod to run IP on you and see if you match one of the recent banned posters. All of your posts strike me as trollish.

I believe she's real -- her dialect and grammatical choices are distinctly different from those of the recently banned guys.

You can also tell a lot by what one writes. The fact that she reports that the dancer found her (or her breasts) "pretty," "beautiful," "pretty" and "very pretty" in just 5 paragraphs of her original thread post suggests that she's both female and a little intimidated by the dancers around her. (My point is that I know the dancer will say these things, but for her to post those comments over and over and over is revealing).

FeministStripper
11-13-2011, 06:34 PM
Yes I know they do. And yes, I am. I paid for college myself through loans, grants and work. I starved myself so I'd have money for other things like books. My family could have affordeto pay me 100% but they felt that doing it on my own would help me appreciate it more. And it worked. It made me learn two things about life. People who work low paying jobs were like myself and needed college money or people who had serious issues and couldn't/wouldn't do better. Most were alcoholics or drug addicts. Most were always having to have days off to go to drug court or DUI court. It's not like they could have done better had they tried, because they had made so many mistakes in their life no one in the professional world would hire them. And I once even had a person quit while working on my shift and I told my manager I was shocked and he said "that's ok, anyone who is 30 and is doing this type of job isn't a prize possession of any company because if they were they'd be a career professional".

So it gave me great pride to be able to do what I did on nothing. And it also made me realize that the working poor brings almost everything that happens to them onto themselves. Because I was able to do it with no money, they could too if they wanted to bad enough. And no my parents didn't even buy me a car or pay my rent. And that whole thing about how people are poor and have kids to feed. We have awesome birth control here. People should realize their situation and plan accordingly.

Ah, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, meet the 1%. :hat: Good to know that people whose mommies and daddies can pay their way through college are using grants meant for those who don't have that advantage. And doodness dwacious, they didn't EVEN buy her a car. Nice. You should be proud.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 06:39 PM
I believe she's real -- her dialect and grammatical choices are distinctly different from those of the recently banned guys.

You can also tell a lot by what one writes. The fact that she reports that the dancer found her (or her breasts) "pretty," "beautiful," "pretty" and "very pretty" in just 5 paragraphs of her original thread post suggests that she's both female and a little intimidated by the dancers around her. (My point is that I know the dancer will say these things, but for her to post those comments over and over and over is revealing).
Not intimidated. Not exactly sure what to be intimidated by. I don't go to clubs for validation. I go because the drinks are cheaper, the atmosphere is better than a bar and I'm bisexual. It was 100% cool to have a chick rub her tits on mine and want to see my boobs. Really, what would I be intimidated by? To be honest, most people think I have too much self confidence to the point that I intimidate some people. And I'm not concerned about my tits in any way what so ever. I was pretty excited about it, because men tell me my tits are hot all the time but i don't care about that. If a chick thinks my tits are hot, that's really cool. And maybe she didn't, but they sure aren't pancake tits with extra large nipples or anything with stretch marks. So if she didn't like them, that's ok too. Because I sure do like them and different strokes for different folks.

tcqueen83
11-13-2011, 06:46 PM
Ah, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, meet the 1%. :hat: Good to know that people whose mommies and daddies can pay their way through college are using grants meant for those who don't have that advantage. And doodness dwacious, they didn't EVEN buy her a car. Nice. You should be proud.

Would it be better if they did buy me a car? If someone meets the qualifications for a grant then they deserve it. Doesn't change the fact that in America the "I don't have enough money for college" excuse is completely worthless. And then there's the "I have a degree and can't find a job". Not many jobs for culinary artists or history majors.