View Full Version : "You Aren't Helping..You're Insulting Us"(rant)
Kellydancer
09-24-2012, 12:19 PM
Saying "There's no point in getting pissed at someone for handing you a gift bag when they are just trying to help." is speaking for everyone. You're doing what you've accused me of! You don't see that? I'm not speaking for everyone, the job is just a job and everyday, adults have the option of working or not. That's not opinion or a subjective take on it. It's just fact. It's not slavery.
BTW, I don't consider it sex work in the first place. The only dancers doing sex work are extras girls. If you are following the law then you are an entertainer. But I think that view, equating dancing with sex work is their basis for equating stripping with sex slavery/exploitation.
I always considered myself an entertainer because there wasn't sex. However I did work with dancers who did extras (both in and outside the club)and unfortunately many people see dancers and hookers as the same.
shift_6x
09-24-2012, 12:21 PM
BTW, I don't consider it sex work in the first place. The only dancers doing sex work are extras girls. If you are following the law then you are an entertainer. But I think that view, equating dancing with sex work is their basis for equating stripping with sex slavery/exploitation.
Id have to agree....Dancing is not sex work...Sex work is a blow job or hand job or sex....I am not a sex worker..I do not receive money for an act of sex....
Also I dont give a good gd what people think. Church people are not saints, some of them are the biggest fuck ups and use religion as a means to "try to make themselves feel like they have transformed themselves to a more appropriate individual." Churches are all scams and cults, and when u dont fit into their religious molds they talk shit and cast u out...So religions are like clubs that each make up their own rules..If u dont abide my them they judge u and think less of u..Seen that happen to people and its a shame...
So it isnt the fact that these gift bag people are supposedly giving us gifts that offends me..They actually gave us a few items that came from the dollar tree that look like they were cheap and disgusting..Like they thought we were all hookers and prostitutes...Its the fact that they came in on their high horses..Thats offensive to me..They didnt even say anything to us..Just shoved bags in our face and ran out the door..They gave off a huge air of the fact that they thought they were better people...Some of those women r prolly alcoholics and drug addicts that attend church..Some of which prolly cheat on their husbands too...But--- o thats right the girl who dances, isnt an extras girl and provides for herself and who isnt a drug addict/alcoholic/serial cheater is such a horrible person....Right...
Kellydancer
09-24-2012, 12:31 PM
Id have to agree....Dancing is not sex work...Sex work is a blow job or hand job or sex....I am not a sex worker..I do not receive money for an act of sex....
Also I dont give a good gd what people think. Church people are not saints, some of them are the biggest fuck ups and use religion as a means to "try to make themselves feel like they have transformed themselves to a more appropriate individual." Churches are all scams and cults, and when u dont fit into their religious molds they talk shit and cast u out...So religions are like clubs that each make up their own rules..If u dont abide my them they judge u and think less of u..Seen that happen to people and its a shame...
So it isnt the fact that these gift bag people are supposedly giving us gifts that offends me..They actually gave us a few items that came from the dollar tree that look like they were cheap and disgusting..Like they thought we were all hookers and prostitutes...Its the fact that they came in on their high horses..Thats offensive to me..They didnt even say anything to us..Just shoved bags in our face and ran out the door..They gave off a huge air of the fact that they thought they were better people...Some of those women r prolly alcoholics and drug addicts that attend church..Some of which prolly cheat on their husbands too...But--- o thats right the girl who dances, isnt an extras girl and provides for herself and who isnt a drug addict/alcoholic/serial cheater is such a horrible person....Right...
Having become a religious person I see so many hypocrites in church. People who preach family values at night cruise streetwalkers and the like. To me becoming a religious person means not to judge others doing a job that may not appear Christian. I firmly believe you can be a Christian and a stripper or be an atheist or Pagan or anything else.
I've considered going to help women leave the sex industry but was thinking more in terms of streetwalkers because most have no choice. Strippers? usually free choice unless someone pushes you into it. Smart dancers make sure they are in control and do have a way to leave once they are finished with the industry.
Naida
09-24-2012, 03:09 PM
BTW, I don't consider it sex work in the first place. The only dancers doing sex work are extras girls. If you are following the law then you are an entertainer. But I think that view, equating dancing with sex work is their basis for equating stripping with sex slavery/exploitation.
I always considered myself an entertainer because there wasn't sex. However I did work with dancers who did extras (both in and outside the club)and unfortunately many people see dancers and hookers as the same.
I have to slightly disagree with you girls about the definition of sex work. Most states/counties/cities legally define strip clubs as Sexually Oriented Business. There are plenty of girls who work in "sexual wellness centers" who don't have sex with their customers, but are considered sex workers because they provide the service of sexual fantasy.
To be clear, I'm not saying anyone here is a hooker or a prostitute (well, except for those of you who actually are, but most of you escorting ladies are too classy to be called those things), but let's face facts shall we? The entertainment we provide is of a sexual nature, even if it doesn't involve sexual contact.
NakedNerd
09-24-2012, 07:52 PM
Um ... you guys do realize that the term "sex worker" does not signify that you have sex for a living, right?
If you are going to be in this industry ladies, please do your research.
Google it or Wikipedia it if you wish, but being in the sex industry indicates that you are in a sex related or an adult oriented industry, which can be anything from peep sjows to being a stripper to web cam girl to porn actress to escort and so on ...
Tsepmet1
09-24-2012, 10:33 PM
They used to do that in Oklahoma City, too. It was a church organization for battered women. I guess they assume that we are all living deviant lifestyles!
http://www.confessionsofanakedtherapist.blogspot.com/
shift_6x
09-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Um ... you guys do realize that the term "sex worker" does not signify that you have sex for a living, right?
If you are going to be in this industry ladies, please do your research.
Google it or Wikipedia it if you wish, but being in the sex industry indicates that you are in a sex related or an adult oriented industry, which can be anything from peep sjows to being a stripper to web cam girl to porn actress to escort and so on ...
I am not looking for the definition of sex worker out of the dictionary, nor am I going to do internet research to find its extensive meaning..I have been in this business a while and imho,,,thats MHO dancing is an art form..Bc thats how I carry myself..The girls who flash for a living are disgusting imho..Im not going to do that nor have I ever...I have class and I actually dance..I dont booty shake nor am I am pole acrobat..I came into dancing during the time when girls actually 'danced'..I know some girls may find me dated..but if so then why the f am I still doing well??..hmm
I find the term 'sex worker' offensive...just me-
shift_6x
09-25-2012, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=Kellydancer;2403519]Having become a religious person I see so many hypocrites in church. People who preach family values at night cruise streetwalkers and the like.
This is what strikes me wrong...To preach and nod ur head and recite crap out of some kind of holy book in a place of worship...And then go out at night and hit on women/buy hookers...Or in the married wives's case..Have a mid life crises and cheat on ur husband... Yea being a Christian sure is the way to go..Not to mention all the religious people who are molesters...Yea theyre great people alright....There are bad people in all careers, religions, etc..But people like to judge from the outside not realizing that whats going on on the outside is most likely an act.
I am not looking for the definition of sex worker out of the dictionary, nor am I going to do internet research to find its extensive meaning..I have been in this business a while and imho,,,thats MHO dancing is an art form..Bc thats how I carry myself..The girls who flash for a living are disgusting imho..Im not going to do that nor have I ever...I have class and I actually dance..I dont booty shake nor am I am pole acrobat..I came into dancing during the time when girls actually 'danced'..I know some girls may find me dated..but if so then why the f am I still doing well??..hmm
I find the term 'sex worker' offensive...just me-
Even if you're not a sex worker, it's still a sex business. Even the classiest burlesque dancer gets payed to titillate. It's a bit harsh to call girls that flash for a living "disgusting", I mean you do know you're on a sex worker forum right? we have seperate sections for cam girls and escorts, it's not even just dancers here. A lot of the pole dancers are really talented, as are the booty shakers (I know a lot of girls who worked professionally as hip hop dancers on the side). I can't do either, but I'm not about to diss girls that do.
Does anyone else though wish they could make a living off flashing though here? Shit I'd be rolling in the dough. No more small talk, or fake flirting, or reading body language.
shift_6x
09-26-2012, 11:08 AM
Even if you're not a sex worker, it's still a sex business. Even the classiest burlesque dancer gets payed to titillate. It's a bit harsh to call girls that flash for a living "disgusting", I mean you do know you're on a sex worker forum right? we have seperate sections for cam girls and escorts, it's not even just dancers here. A lot of the pole dancers are really talented, as are the booty shakers (I know a lot of girls who worked professionally as hip hop dancers on the side). I can't do either, but I'm not about to diss girls that do.
Does anyone else though wish they could make a living off flashing though here? Shit I'd be rolling in the dough. No more small talk, or fake flirting, or reading body language.
I think u took offense to me explaining what I am about..All of us here see things diferrently...for ex..As I have said before I work in mostly bikini bars where there are no lapdances...For a diversified perspective--Some girls here wouldnt bother dancing if they only made 100-200 a night on a stage..SOme girls couldnt fathomworking in a club where generally speaking ur not gonna have the 400+ dollar nights...Then other girls prefer the stage only dancing bc they dont want to be touched while giving lapdances...
Everybody sees things differently...I personally feel that pole dancing is overrated and that booty shaking is trashy.. BUT THAT IS BC OF MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND BC I STARTED DANCING WELL OVER A DECADE AGO...LIKE I HAVE SAID BEFORE...When I started there werent any pole tricks going on..The dancers who were in their 30s all were girls who actually 'danced'..They didnt shake their asses nor fly around the pole..They got up there moved around to the music and smiled and conversated while dancing on the runway..There was more dancing going on...I rarely see girls who actually dance anymore..Its a shame really....
I see the dancing I do as entertaining not sex work..That is a difference in the generation of dancers...
I'm aware that stages used to be a lot better than now. But the premise of all exotic dancing has been to turn people on. Even wayyy back in the day, that was the point.
All I'm really trying to say, is even if you think it's "trashy" and "overrated", there are a lot of girls who do those dance forms professionally, without even being a stripper, and competing in competitions. Just because it's not your kind of dance doesn't mean you should be blatantly rude about it.
Kellydancer
09-26-2012, 01:35 PM
I don't think Shift is being rude, just has a different idea about the industry than maybe others. I started dancing in 1993 at a time when things were different. There were a lot of bikini bars and even the topless bars were often not really topless because the dancers often wore pasties, latex or even bandaids. Many of the things mentioned never really happened everywhere years ago, like the heavy contact grinding and they still don't everywhere. I don't think these girls are trashy, just doing what they have to make money. However those girls who do handjobs or blowjobs or sex in the clubs are trashy. If they want to do those then they should escort (and no I don't think escorts are trashy). Often it boils down to money and what one is willing to do. I think it is sad how sleazy many clubs have become but that's another topic.
Joanna_Kaary
09-26-2012, 07:47 PM
The sad thing is, in some places girls have to give really high contact dances to make enough money to get by and in some places girls have to do extras to make enough money to survive... if you think that makes them trashy, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, just like the people who think ANY girl who gets semi-naked for money is trashy are entitled to theirs. I'm no fan of girls doing extras in clubs as I know it makes it that much harder for those of us who want to sell clean dances, so I understand wanting to say to them "get the hell out of here and go escort," but the sad truth is that escorting can be extremely dangerous for girls who don't/can't invest in advertising to good clients and screening... and the girls who seem "trashy," the girls in desperate situations, probably can't/wouldn't know how to take these steps. So for those girls, turning tricks in a club where managers and bouncers are present can seem like the best option. Do "those girls" cause their own hardships through poor choices like drug use? Some do, some don't. Do I catch myself judging "those girls"? Sometimes, because we are all only human. But rather than judging, I try to redirect my energy to another ultimately pointless activity: wishing the world didn't have to be like this.
shift_6x
09-27-2012, 02:53 PM
I'm aware that stages used to be a lot better than now. But the premise of all exotic dancing has been to turn people on. Even wayyy back in the day, that was the point.
All I'm really trying to say, is even if you think it's "trashy" and "overrated", there are a lot of girls who do those dance forms professionally, without even being a stripper, and competing in competitions. Just because it's not your kind of dance doesn't mean you should be blatantly rude about it.
I am not being rude I am being opinionated...Hey I can sit here all day and justify, give examples etc..But really I dont have all day to do that. If u dont like my thread then get off of it. I dont have any need to call you names bc well, I really dont care enough..
There are several different types of dancing..everyone has a preference for whichever one they choose...We all have opinions and its sad when we rnt able to voice them without being called 'rude'. What about the girls who think if u rnt flying around the pole then u rnt a good dancer? I could say , "Hey, thats rude to offend my slow sensual style, that actually incorporates dancing." I dont think booty shaking involves any talent and those girls who really do just that sometimes cant even dance... I CAN BOOTY SHAKE..I CANT TWERK AND DO ALL OF THOSE THINGS But u know what? I dont like that style of dancing so I dont do it..And pole dancing is nice but it really doesnt appear sexy to me..Ive heard so many guys say they could care less about pole tricks..it just depends on what ur looking for......Sexiness is power..The majority of girls these days lack sexiness....
Like Kelly said, I started during a completely diff era of dancing....Girls r going to relate and oftentimes prefer what the industry was like when they started...Just the way it goes and I feel no remorse for my opinion.
Jay12
09-27-2012, 03:11 PM
Well sadly the 'lower end girls' prolly do make 30-70 a night consistently w the occasional good nights. And alot of the bars in the area that lady was delivering those pink bags to were total dives. My bar however was the nicest one in the area. But still we got the dollar store crap. I didnt know wtf the group of ladies were doing when they came in, had I known, I wouldve refused the bags and told them to get out of my bar. I have alot of seniority there and would not have thought a second time about kicking their asses out.
In what bar where you working when those ladies came?
Really, all I am trying to say, is we all have our own styles of making money. If you can be slow and sensual; great, that's what I do too, because I can't booty shake or do pole tricks. I've seen girls do it and look sexy though. One of the sexiest stage girls I know does this slow, almost underwater, pole tricks. It's so graceful.
But we're all in the industry to make money. Would I ever do this for free? Nope, no way in hell. I don't like half the shit girls do on stage. But if it works for them, good for them. I just think we should all be a little more positive and stop giving out fellow dancers shit for not liking their stages. We already have to deal with the rest of the world, let's not tear each other apart for something as petty as non sexy stages.
Optimist
09-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Um ... you guys do realize that the term "sex worker" does not signify that you have sex for a living, right?
If you are going to be in this industry ladies, please do your research.
Google it or Wikipedia it if you wish, but being in the sex industry indicates that you are in a sex related or an adult oriented industry, which can be anything from peep sjows to being a stripper to web cam girl to porn actress to escort and so on ...
Umm....speak for yourself. People try to force the term "sex worker" on any and everyone regardless of their actual opinion to take away their power to choose their own identity. Condescension doesn't make you right, it's still only your opinion. The pro-prostitution agenda is to lump us all in together to make their numbers seem much bigger and stronger and pretend we all share the same POV. We don't and never have. Feel free to agree if it feels right to you but trying to shove it down every dancer's throat like there is no choice because some other people got together and decided is a joke and ironically dis-empowers us at the expense of actual sex workers.
As for Wikipedia, here's what they have to say about Strippers :
Stripper
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the female striptease performer. For other uses, see Stripper (disambiguation).
Occupation
Names stripper, exotic dancer, erotic dancer, go-go dancer, dancer, peeler, ripper[disambiguation needed]
Activity sectors strip clubs, exhibitions, festivals, competitions, busking
Description
Competencies striptease, pole dancing, cage dancing, lap dancing
Education required none
A stripper is a professional erotic dancer who performs a contemporary form of striptease at strip club establishments, public exhibitions, and private engagements. Unlike in burlesque, the performer in the modern Americanized form of stripping minimizes the interaction of customer and dancer, reducing the importance of tease in the performance in favor of speed to undress.[1] Not every stripper will end her performance completely nude, though full nudity is common where not prohibited by law. The integration of the stripper pole as a nearly ubiquitous prop has also shifted the emphasis in the performance toward a more acrobatic, explicit expression versus the slow-developing burlesque. Stripping is typically associated with female performers; male strippers make up less than a third of the professional community.[2] Strippers, when working, are typically found at strip clubs. House dancers work for a particular club or franchise. Feature dancers tend to have their own celebrity, touring a club circuit making appearances. Entertainers (dancers) are often not actual employees of the club itself but allowed to perform as independent contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripper
The Wiki definition you suggested is a mile long but there is no classification of stripping as sex work, they classify it as entertainment.
Naida
09-28-2012, 11:47 AM
I am not looking for the definition of sex worker out of the dictionary, nor am I going to do internet research to find its extensive meaning..I have been in this business a while and imho,,,thats MHO dancing is an art form..Bc thats how I carry myself..The girls who flash for a living are disgusting imho..Im not going to do that nor have I ever...I have class and I actually dance..I dont booty shake nor am I am pole acrobat..I came into dancing during the time when girls actually 'danced'..I know some girls may find me dated..but if so then why the f am I still doing well??..hmm
I find the term 'sex worker' offensive...just me-
I kinda find this post offensive. I don't "booty shake" and "flash" for my living when I'm in the club. Yes, dance is an art form. I find pole acrobatics/contortion to be a combination sport and art (look to Oona K for sport, Alethea Austin for art, and Felix Cane for a good balance). I dance. I pole. I can do each in a non-sexual manner. Part of performing in the club, however, is sensuality and eroticism, which is ADULT entertainment. Men who can appreciate it for art and grace typically find it particularly arousing in a carnal sense, rather than the guys who just wanna fuck the girl acting raunchy and pornographic. Being sensual rather than sexual does not change the fact that these men come to watch us dance in order to fulfill the instinctual urge to surround one's self with attractive partners for mating.
Just like the difference between an upscale escort and a $20 street walker, there's nasty and graceful dancers.
Apples and oranges, they're both fruits.
I don't delude myself. I am a sex worker, even if I don't engage in sexual contact.
shift_6x
09-28-2012, 12:22 PM
In what bar where you working when those ladies came?
Hi Jay, i would rather not divulge that info here on SW..Always good to hear from u though :)
shift_6x
09-28-2012, 12:33 PM
Really, all I am trying to say, is we all have our own styles of making money. If you can be slow and sensual; great, that's what I do too, because I can't booty shake or do pole tricks. I've seen girls do it and look sexy though. One of the sexiest stage girls I know does this slow, almost underwater, pole tricks. It's so graceful.
But we're all in the industry to make money. Would I ever do this for free? Nope, no way in hell. I don't like half the shit girls do on stage. But if it works for them, good for them. I just think we should all be a little more positive and stop giving out fellow dancers shit for not liking their stages. We already have to deal with the rest of the world, let's not tear each other apart for something as petty as non sexy stages.
No you think 'I" should be more positive about other girls' dancing styles..And u know what? Thats ok bc u dont quite understand me and thats normal. People dont see things the same and thats just the way of the world..Misunderstandings happen every second of the day...
I was simply voicing my opinion of how dancing used to be and how I feel about booty shaking and pole tricks...I was actually sitting at the runway with a customer the other night at work and all this young new girl did was shake her ass..That was it..But u know what..? I tipped her!! She didnt know shit about making eye contact which sucked and she wasnt really a great dancer but she shook her ass nicely...
Being a great entertainer isnt about pole tricks either...They are nice and beautiful at times but I find a whole lot more expertise in being personable and right there in the moment in a customer's face....The power that exists in that ability can electrify the entire bar...That skill I see is rare and so very important..Sadly most of the new generation of dancers dont understand the concept.
shift_6x
09-28-2012, 12:42 PM
I don't delude myself. I am a sex worker, even if I don't engage in sexual contact.
You are accusing me of being delusional..That is ur opinion and NOT MINE. If you find this thread offensive then kindly, please get off my thread, thank you. I do understand how u can combine the styles of dancing..However I started this thread. I have voiced my preferences...No one has to get it nor agree..I dont share my opinions expecting everyone on here is going to understand..There are a few however who have expressed to me that they do..And they are reputable sources who i respect immensely....I will continue to focus on those who can relate..bc in the big scheme of life thats what we all want...To find those who think alike and who can relate. :)
Naida
09-28-2012, 01:15 PM
You are accusing me of being delusional..That is ur opinion and NOT MINE.
I wasn't accusing you of anything, but if that is how you wish to interpret it.
If you find this thread offensive then kindly, please get off my thread, thank you.
I do not find the thread offensive, only the particular post I quoted. On that note, however, this thread has gotten seriously off topic. This was originally about outside influences "helping" but actually insulting. The reason I found that particular post offensive is because this thread started out discussing the misguided judging we are all subject to from the outside world, I don't think it's right that we should be judged from the inside as well. Perhaps those "booty shakers" and "flashers" think you're wasting your time on performing in a style they view as outdated and no longer relevant to the modern strip club? You wouldn't feel nicely about them calling your style "trashy" or "grandma dancing" or something, would you? We're already segregated enough from society as it is, why bring that hate into our community too?
I do understand how u can combine the styles of dancing..However I started this thread. I have voiced my preferences...No one has to get it nor agree..I dont share my opinions expecting everyone on here is going to understand..There are a few however who have expressed to me that they do..And they are reputable sources who i respect immensely....I will continue to focus on those who can relate..bc in the big scheme of life thats what we all want...To find those who think alike and who can relate. :)
I understand you have a right to voice your opinions, but isn't the point of posting an open thread instead of a blog to get feedback and consider other points of view as well? Not saying you have to "get them", but perhaps a little openness to consideration is all.
As for your earlier statement about not wanting to research or understand the clear definition of your position in the world of adult entertainment... I will be frank and say that I find that a little, I guess the word I'm looking for is unprofessional? Why would you not want to know all you can about the field in which you spend so many of your waking hours, or the issues that effect it?
Vyanka
09-28-2012, 01:45 PM
Shift, I don't get why you find what's not your style/comfort trashy when there are ppl who think what you do is trashy. I'm not offended by your opinion, I just don't get it.
As for the "sex worker" title. I get it, but I still would not call myself a sex worker. That's fine if someone wants to call it that, whatever. I just feel like if I were to title myself as a "sex worker", i'm probably gonna get asked for stuff I don't do or they will assume I do more than just strip.
That's just me.
Naida
09-28-2012, 03:50 PM
As for the "sex worker" title. I get it, but I still would not call myself a sex worker. That's fine if someone wants to call it that, whatever. I just feel like if I were to title myself as a "sex worker", i'm probably gonna get asked for stuff I don't do or they will assume I do more than just strip.
This argument against the sex worker title makes a little more sense to me. Though I am open and unashamed of myself as a member of the adult/sex industry, I would not call myself a sex worker in front of a CUSTOMER for this reason. When asked about what I prefer to do for a living, I simply say "dancer." It's usually so nonchalant that new acquaintances don't automatically jump to "stripper" and ask what kind of dance. Of course, it's not a title that even comes up very often, so I usually don't even call myself a sex worker except when having full discussions about the adult entertainment industry or sex workers' rights.
Kellydancer
09-28-2012, 06:40 PM
Umm....speak for yourself. People try to force the term "sex worker" on any and everyone regardless of their actual opinion to take away their power to choose their own identity. Condescension doesn't make you right, it's still only your opinion. The pro-prostitution agenda is to lump us all in together to make their numbers seem much bigger and stronger and pretend we all share the same POV. We don't and never have. Feel free to agree if it feels right to you but trying to shove it down every dancer's throat like there is no choice because some other people got together and decided is a joke and ironically dis-empowers us at the expense of actual sex workers.
As for Wikipedia, here's what they have to say about Strippers :
Stripper
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the female striptease performer. For other uses, see Stripper (disambiguation).
Occupation
Names stripper, exotic dancer, erotic dancer, go-go dancer, dancer, peeler, ripper[disambiguation needed]
Activity sectors strip clubs, exhibitions, festivals, competitions, busking
Description
Competencies striptease, pole dancing, cage dancing, lap dancing
Education required none
A stripper is a professional erotic dancer who performs a contemporary form of striptease at strip club establishments, public exhibitions, and private engagements. Unlike in burlesque, the performer in the modern Americanized form of stripping minimizes the interaction of customer and dancer, reducing the importance of tease in the performance in favor of speed to undress.[1] Not every stripper will end her performance completely nude, though full nudity is common where not prohibited by law. The integration of the stripper pole as a nearly ubiquitous prop has also shifted the emphasis in the performance toward a more acrobatic, explicit expression versus the slow-developing burlesque. Stripping is typically associated with female performers; male strippers make up less than a third of the professional community.[2] Strippers, when working, are typically found at strip clubs. House dancers work for a particular club or franchise. Feature dancers tend to have their own celebrity, touring a club circuit making appearances. Entertainers (dancers) are often not actual employees of the club itself but allowed to perform as independent contractors.
The Wiki definition you suggested is a mile long but there is no classification of stripping as sex work, they classify it as entertainment.
Exactly. Once upon a time dancing at clubs actually required dancing (even if it wasn't technically good dancing which is another topic)and required dancers to be entertaining. I worked many years ago at a club now defunct in Hammond Indiana that wanted girls to come up with choreographed routines, sort of like burlesque. The owner had owned a burlesque club in Chicago back in the 50s and liked that style but updated it. Because of that he hired women who could dance, and not the booty poppin or any of that. This was back in 1993 when gentlemens clubs were really starting to become upscale. Yes there were men coming to watch a show, or even talk to a pretty girl.
Regarding the girls who do extras in the clubs, sorry but I can't feel sorry for them, especially if it's a clean club and they are alone. If they need to resort to that they shouldn't be dancing. As for those who work in dirty clubs and are doing what the other girls are then yes it is sad that the industry has come to this. I remember back in the days I club danced where we would also want to separate ourselves from the prostitutes and when one club starting hiring streetwalkers many of us quit. I refuse to put strippers in the same category as a hooker. I am not talking escorts because that is another issue entirely. I'm willing to bet most of the girls who do extras in the clubs aren't that attractive to be high class escorts. I've known a few high class escorts and yes quite a few started in clubs but they were top of the line in attractiveness (and oddly were very clean dancers). I am willing to bet they would be horrified even being in the same category as a dancer charging $50 for sex. My firm belief has always been keep prostitution and stripping separate because they shouldn't even be the same thing. An old adage I heard from an older dancer is strippers don't have sex and prostitutes don't dance. I believe that. Interestingly, several bachelor parties I did years ago would sometimes have prostitutes come in after I was done dancing and rarely was I asked to be involved because they knew I was only an entertainer.
Vyanka
09-28-2012, 07:55 PM
This argument against the sex worker title makes a little more sense to me. Though I am open and unashamed of myself as a member of the adult/sex industry, I would not call myself a sex worker in front of a CUSTOMER for this reason. When asked about what I prefer to do for a living, I simply say "dancer." It's usually so nonchalant that new acquaintances don't automatically jump to "stripper" and ask what kind of dance. Of course, it's not a title that even comes up very often, so I usually don't even call myself a sex worker except when having full discussions about the adult entertainment industry or sex workers' rights.
I always referred to it as, "adult entertainment". It's easier not to confuse some folks. I have no beef with the title. I don't care what ppl think of me tbh, but I feel like if I were to say sex worker men will ask me for sex(men think with their dicks). It's already annoying as is when men come to the club trolling for sex, asking wtf else they can get.
That being said, I don't think there is a right or wrong with calling it what you want to call it. :)
shift_6x
09-29-2012, 01:32 PM
I wasn't accusing you of anything, but if that is how you wish to interpret it.
I do not find the thread offensive, only the particular post I quoted. On that note, however, this thread has gotten seriously off topic. This was originally about outside influences "helping" but actually insulting. The reason I found that particular post offensive is because this thread started out discussing the misguided judging we are all subject to from the outside world, I don't think it's right that we should be judged from the inside as well. Perhaps those "booty shakers" and "flashers" think you're wasting your time on performing in a style they view as outdated and no longer relevant to the modern strip club? You wouldn't feel nicely about them calling your style "trashy" or "grandma dancing" or something, would you? We're already segregated enough from society as it is, why bring that hate into our community too?
I understand you have a right to voice your opinions, but isn't the point of posting an open thread instead of a blog to get feedback and consider other points of view as well? Not saying you have to "get them", but perhaps a little openness to consideration is all.
As for your earlier statement about not wanting to research or understand the clear definition of your position in the world of adult entertainment... I will be frank and say that I find that a little, I guess the word I'm looking for is unprofessional? Why would you not want to know all you can about the field in which you spend so many of your waking hours, or the issues that effect it?
I am replying to you bc I sense that you do have some intelligence. Threads ALWAYS GET OFF TOPIC on SW. So I am not concerned with that. As for the extensive research, I find that unnecessary. I have expressed my own personal opinion which is based upon how I feel and how I view things...To those of you who are offended you need to understand everyone here feels differently..Let the differences go bc ur not going to be able to change someone's opinion....I dont expect to change anyone else's. I have considered others' opinions and if u read back into what Ive posted which is what I believe u have been doing, you will find that I actually HAD APPRECIATION FOR THE BOOTY SHAKING DANCER AND TIPPED HER SOME OF MY OWN MONEY! wow...Iif that isnt appreciating another style of dancing that maybe I dont really 'like' then idk what is....You were accusing 'someone' of being delusional about dancing not being sex work..And Im the one who said it so ..hmmm..? I wonder who u were directly that towards?..Regardless...What I have learned is that it isnt right for everyone to be lumped in the same category, bc it isnt justified. Also that not only were the bag ladies not effectively communicating their 'savior tactic', but that other fellow dancers have a skewed view of their own occupation...Ive learned alot from this thread...
shift_6x
09-29-2012, 01:42 PM
Shift, I don't get why you find what's not your style/comfort trashy when there are ppl who think what you do is trashy. I'm not offended by your opinion, I just don't get it.
As for the "sex worker" title. I get it, but I still would not call myself a sex worker. That's fine if someone wants to call it that, whatever. I just feel like if I were to title myself as a "sex worker", i'm probably gonna get asked for stuff I don't do or they will assume I do more than just strip.
That's just me.
I welcome ur inquiry...I see where ignorant people on the outside of the dance world may think that me being a dancer all itself is trashy..Those people I ignore bc of their own ignorance...They aren't correct by my standards and when it boils down to it isnt it our own personal thoughts and feelings that steer our individual lives? That would be a yes!!! What matters to me in life is what 'I' think of what I do..If my boundaries stand as I have made them for myself and I abide by them, then Im doing right by myself and thats how I ought to live...We all make our own boundaries within the realm of dancing..Some girls as I have said before will choose stage only dancing, others will escort or give a high contact lapdancce...And with all those boundaries each and every girl will think differently of the girl next to her whos doing something different...Judgements happen every second of every day. I just opened a can of worms by expressing exactly what I thought...Someone else on here could say that Im stupid for not capitalizing on dancing and moving to a state where I can make 500-1000+ a night lapdancing...Every which way there is a different view and or opinion..I guess many of u think I was wrong to voice how I really feel..And thats ur right..Im just proud I have the balls to say how I truly feel.
shift_6x
09-29-2012, 01:45 PM
This argument against the sex worker title makes a little more sense to me. Though I am open and unashamed of myself as a member of the adult/sex industry, I would not call myself a sex worker in front of a CUSTOMER for this reason. When asked about what I prefer to do for a living, I simply say "dancer." It's usually so nonchalant that new acquaintances don't automatically jump to "stripper" and ask what kind of dance. Of course, it's not a title that even comes up very often, so I usually don't even call myself a sex worker except when having full discussions about the adult entertainment industry or sex workers' rights.
A dancer is not a sex worker.--Just my opinion, the end-- ItTs true that if u call urself a sex worker people will assume u are exchanging money for a sexual act--Which is why I do not consider myself as being a sex worker when what I really am is an entertainer/dancer.
Jay12
09-30-2012, 12:38 AM
I can see why many of us (I'm including myself) would use the term "sex worker"; despite we may not be engaging in sexual acts or sexual contact, the customers are getting a form of sexual stimulus from us; even pole dancers who don't dance in a sexual manner, men still look at them with lust. Men can get as much stimulus by just looking, and all that teasing and seducing does the trick for them. I would use the term entertainer or dancer for official purposes (like, filling taxes, or applying for a business license), but when talking to the people close to me I may use a term like sex worker. I don't see why there should be a war between those terms.
shift_6x
09-30-2012, 11:55 AM
I can see why many of us (I'm including myself) would use the term "sex worker"; despite we may not be engaging in sexual acts or sexual contact, the customers are getting a form of sexual stimulus from us; even pole dancers who don't dance in a sexual manner, men still look at them with lust. Men can get as much stimulus by just looking, and all that teasing and seducing does the trick for them. I would use the term entertainer or dancer for official purposes (like, filling taxes, or applying for a business license), but when talking to the people close to me I may use a term like sex worker. I don't see why there should be a war between those terms.
I really like u Jay, however I would NEVER refer to myself as a sex worker. I am dancer/entertainer for tax purposes and in 'real' life as well. There is a war bc some people dont see the difference while others most certainly do.
I can see why many of us (I'm including myself) would use the term "sex worker"; despite we may not be engaging in sexual acts or sexual contact, the customers are getting a form of sexual stimulus from us; even pole dancers who don't dance in a sexual manner, men still look at them with lust. Men can get as much stimulus by just looking, and all that teasing and seducing does the trick for them. I would use the term entertainer or dancer for official purposes (like, filling taxes, or applying for a business license), but when talking to the people close to me I may use a term like sex worker. I don't see why there should be a war between those terms.
I agree. Too bad we can't combine the terms. Like um, sex entertainer? Sextainer? LOL but really. Yes we are dancing and entertaining, but in a sexual manner. Even the classiest stripper's shows you couldn't really take your kids to.
Idk. For me personally, it depends on the day. Night w
Naida
10-03-2012, 03:45 AM
lol, It would be nice if we could combine the titles in some way. However, regardless of where we are on the spectrum, everyone in the adult industry gets lumped together as "sex workers" because we're providing sexual stimulation, physical or otherwise.
Which title gets used, of course, does depend on who you're talking to. When speaking to family, most acquaintances, or some one who is a bit unnerved by it, I say "adult entertainer". When discussing sex workers rights or stigma relating to the business, I say "sex worker". To anyone who can't seem to understand that I don't provide sexual contact, I say (and emphasize) "dancer".
Regardless of which title you use, I stand by my position that anyone working in the sex/adult industry DO READ ABOUT IT. Doesn't matter if you're a clean dancer or an escort, or just a woman in general. Sex workers rights aren't just for hooker. They affect all women, children, and LGBT peoples. Did you know that in four cities (including LA and SF), you can be arrested for suspicion of prostitution just for having condoms in your purse? If you're working in an adult establishment like a gentlemen's club and have condoms, even in your PERSONAL BELONGINGS IN YOUR LOCKER, you can be arrested and charged outright for prostitution. That's basically saying that women have no right to safe sex, whether she's getting paid for it or not!
shift_6x
10-03-2012, 11:13 AM
^I appreciate all the diverse opinions here but I do not agree with you all, sorry..I am not a "sex worker". There was an article in a fashion mag this month that separated an exotic dancer from a sex worker/prostitute. The mag used two completely different women as examples of the different kinds of women who work in a specific country, and the DIFFERENT occupations they have. Yes, a well known fashion mag actually separated a sex worker which was actually a prostitute(gave a female example), from an exotic dancer(showed a completely different woman), in which they named in the description! Applaud!!! Yey!! Even a conservative fashion mag recognized the difference between a sex worker and an exotic dancer...My point proven again. :)
Naida
10-03-2012, 12:25 PM
Considering this is a "conservative fashion mag", it just further proves that they are out of touch with the adult industry. However, I do applaud the way they separate the two in what I can only assume as making exotic dancing a little less "demeaning" and "trashy".
What mag was this? I'd love to pick up a copy.
Kellydancer
10-03-2012, 12:34 PM
^I appreciate all the diverse opinions here but I do not agree with you all, sorry..I am not a "sex worker". There was an article in a fashion mag this month that separated an exotic dancer from a sex worker/prostitute. The mag used two completely different women as examples of the different kinds of women who work in a specific country, and the DIFFERENT occupations they have. Yes, a well known fashion mag actually separated a sex worker which was actually a prostitute(gave a female example), from an exotic dancer(showed a completely different woman), in which they named in the description! Applaud!!! Yey!! Even a conservative fashion mag recognized the difference between a sex worker and an exotic dancer...My point proven again. :)
I want to read this article and I am glad when I read these articles. I always cringed when people would put clean dancers in the same category with those providing sex. I'm sorry but I have never considered dancers who danced on stage (including pole dancing)then gave air dances in the same category with those "dancers" who didn't really dance onstage (you know what I mean, I hope)then let men paw them, including letting men suck their nipples (yuck). I will readily admit that I would never be a dancer today because of the sleaziness I see, such as grinding men, touching them, having them touch me and worse.
LilithAmadea
10-03-2012, 12:40 PM
-____-; It amazes me at what people will do. This is a great idea, but this is more of an approach to conform these women into her idealism. Apparently a woman working in the adult industry isn't doing it on her own accord. Because no woman in her right mind should be happy with her body or sexuality. If anything, these people need to worry about real problems like actual human trafficking that is still going on to this day, starvation, and women who are actually in serious need to get out of abusive environments. And there should never be a condition. Turn to God and we'll help you. Shit like his irks me to no end.
shift_6x
10-03-2012, 12:50 PM
I want to read this article and I am glad when I read these articles. I always cringed when people would put clean dancers in the same category with those providing sex. I'm sorry but I have never considered dancers who danced on stage (including pole dancing)then gave air dances in the same category with those "dancers" who didn't really dance onstage (you know what I mean, I hope)then let men paw them, including letting men suck their nipples (yuck). I will readily admit that I would never be a dancer today because of the sleaziness I see, such as grinding men, touching them, having them touch me and worse.
Kelly, pm me and I will give u the name of the mag...I completely agree with ur viewpoint in this post.
shift_6x
10-03-2012, 12:54 PM
Considering this is a "conservative fashion mag", it just further proves that they are out of touch with the adult industry. However, I do applaud the way they separate the two in what I can only assume as making exotic dancing a little less "demeaning" and "trashy".
What mag was this? I'd love to pick up a copy.
No, I don't agree that a conservative fashion mag is necessarily "out of touch" with the adult industry. Not in this instance, surprisingly. It was very nice to see the differentiation, no matter how slight everyone may view it, there def was one. It made me happy in a small tiny way.
Naida
10-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Typically speaking, anything "conservative" is out of touch with anything related to women, sexuality, elderly, disabled, non-"omg, you make less than $100k? You poor thing, would you like my table scraps?" Such an article in and of itself is incredibly forward thinking if they really are conservative and aren't outright bashing exotic dancing. Nonetheless, what was the magazine? Was it this month's (October) issue?
JessicaCM
10-03-2012, 02:56 PM
You should have wrote on the card 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," and "Judge ye not, or ye shall be judged" and "Devil in a sheep's clothing". I would have done that. I would have said now go search for that shit in your Bible bitch. Some people are so foolish. I'm not a religious freak, but I have my beliefs. People like this don't understand that their are guys who are CEOs, educators, and religious leaders raping and molesting kids, stealing from the church, and beating the daylights out of their wives. But those broads only see the outside of their jobs and think they are so good in society and are better than a dancer. I would have gave it back, made a sly remark, and went about my day. Fuck the haters, get $. People are going to think and believe what they want, so no point in wasting energy.
JessicaCM
10-03-2012, 02:59 PM
I can see why many of us (I'm including myself) would use the term "sex worker"; despite we may not be engaging in sexual acts or sexual contact, the customers are getting a form of sexual stimulus from us; even pole dancers who don't dance in a sexual manner, men still look at them with lust. Men can get as much stimulus by just looking, and all that teasing and seducing does the trick for them. I would use the term entertainer or dancer for official purposes (like, filling taxes, or applying for a business license), but when talking to the people close to me I may use a term like sex worker. I don't see why there should be a war between those terms.
AGREED. STRIPPER, DANCER, ENTERTAINER, SEX WORKER, IT'S ALL APART OF THE ADULT INDUSTRY. Your job is to provide men with a "sexual/erotic fantasy." I am not offended by any of those terms. It is what it is.
JessicaCM
10-03-2012, 03:01 PM
I can see why many of us (I'm including myself) would use the term "sex worker"; despite we may not be engaging in sexual acts or sexual contact, the customers are getting a form of sexual stimulus from us; even pole dancers who don't dance in a sexual manner, men still look at them with lust. Men can get as much stimulus by just looking, and all that teasing and seducing does the trick for them. I would use the term entertainer or dancer for official purposes (like, filling taxes, or applying for a business license), but when talking to the people close to me I may use a term like sex worker. I don't see why there should be a war between those terms.
AGREED. STRIPPER, DANCER, ENTERTAINER, SEX WORKER, IT'S ALL APART OF THE ADULT INDUSTRY. Your job is to provide men with a "sexual/erotic fantasy." I am not offended by any of those terms. It is what it is.
shift_6x
10-04-2012, 11:22 AM
agreed. Stripper, dancer, entertainer, sex worker, it's all apart of the adult industry. Your job is to provide men with a "sexual/erotic fantasy." i am not offended by any of those terms. It is what it is.
i am offended by some of those terms. That is bc as i have said before, i started dancing 14-17 years ago. That was a different era of dancing. There was actually more poise and class back then..what i see now is disgusting oftentimes. Unfortunately, there are not too many 'old school' girls left in this business who can relate in the clubs nor on sw.
Naida
10-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Honestly, I'm offended by your statement that there was "poise and class back then" like there isn't any now. I may have performed lapdances, but I consistently got compliments from other dancers (including those who worked in your "era") for being "so classy/elegant/pretty" and "not doing that ghetto shit" on stage, "too much of a lady to be here" when dealing with customers, "why don't you work at the upscale clubs?", etc.
Just because we're a new generation doesn't automatically make us beneath you.
shift_6x
10-21-2012, 12:27 PM
Honestly, I'm offended by your statement that there was "poise and class back then" like there isn't any now. I may have performed lapdances, but I consistently got compliments from other dancers (including those who worked in your "era") for being "so classy/elegant/pretty" and "not doing that ghetto shit" on stage, "too much of a lady to be here" when dealing with customers, "why don't you work at the upscale clubs?", etc.
Just because we're a new generation doesn't automatically make us beneath you.
I am speaking in BROAD TERMS ..Not specific....If u didnt dance 14-17 years ago u have no point of reference, Im sorry..If u want to get offended ..Thats ur choice..I am not flagging u out and saying that the 'younger' generation are incapable of producing a single classy dancer..They exist..They are rare...Now I see girls who r younger and bitchier who r so stuck up.. I am unable to stay n the same room as them bc their heads take up the whole room..That isnt class...Thats conceitedness. ANd that is almost just as bad as the trashy dancer. I am not pinpointing and particular dancer out..Idk know you, nor anything about u. Once again, I am speaking in broad terms...If u dont like me or what I say thats too bad. I am not here to win a popularity contest. We all share diff points of view and thats just the way it goes...
missykrissy
10-31-2012, 06:21 AM
These women have been to my club but mgt won't let them chit chat with us, our club is too big and crazy, they just leave us a box us stuff and pamphlets.
We always call them Save the Strippers. But I guess that's not their real name after all.
What irks me about them, and really everyone who thinks like them, which is waaaayyyy more than just religious people, is this idea that somehow it's us strippers that are driving the bus here. Each and every one of us have had other jobs previously. Many of us (including me) have college degrees. In my case, I was three years out of college, I had just received my third promotion, and I was making 34k a year. Basically 500 a week. I owed student loans. Rent and a car payment. I was either going to have to move back home or make a change.
Ultimately, society places a far greater value on the work I do at the strip club than the work I attained a bachelor's degree for. So let's take all the talk of drug addiction, pimp boyfriend, or whether I'm some sort of self-actualized new-age feminist out of it, and just look at me as an individual in the context of society. Where does a majority of the responsibility lay. Attempting to figure out why I "became" a stripper is like trying to figure out why a 22 year old who lives in west VA became a coal miner.
If these bitches seriously want to help, they would concern themselves with the lack of real job opportunities for women. But that is so much more complex and difficult and involves trying to figure out what to do instead of just telling someone else what they should not do.
shift_6x
10-31-2012, 12:56 PM
If these bitches seriously want to help, they would concern themselves with the lack of real job opportunities for women. But that is so much more complex and difficult and involves trying to figure out what to do instead of just telling someone else what they should not do.
Excellent post! Ur absolutely right imho. Its alot easier to shun and judge others than it is to attempt to help a much more difficult, larger problem like the lack of job opportunities for women out there..But they arent so much looking out for women as they are judging a particular group of society that THEY DONT APPROVE OF. They are wasting their damn time and I a happy to say they havent been back into any of my clubs...Maybe they should go into McDonalds and give all the hourly min wage workers gift bags and try to save them from their min wage jobs...SOme people look down upon fast food workers, others look down upon dancers..Some millionaires look down upon anyone else who isnt a millionaire like them and consider them 'lazy' people...Its a mess...A no win situation unfortunately..
Mercy.k
10-31-2012, 01:11 PM
I would go to this organisation armed with goodie bag's of your own including business cards advertising your service & the club in which you dance at. You may even gain a few new custy's
Thats helping yourself right?
Naida
11-01-2012, 04:02 PM
I just remembered your post about a mag article, shift. Please tell us which issue of which mag.