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Frenchie
03-02-2012, 09:47 PM
@Frenchie, I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm simply confused as to what your point is.
If you read through this thread, you'll notice that no one is claiming that it's impossible to earn a good living without camming, so your anecdotal experience doesn't provide much in the way of substance to the discussion. In keeping with the tangent raised by some of the contributors to this thread regarding differing strains of 'feminism', I'd argue that the economic opportunities available to North American women who hold both skin and class privilege are equal to white men in most ways, rendering the choice to take up camming for these women more obviously that; a choice, given many options.
You're defining equality (I think, by posting your salary?) through a second wave feminist lens, but you're forgetting that 3/4 of the global female population was not-so-accidentally omitted from that discourse of 'liberation'. I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, but I believe this is what was being referenced in earlier posts relating to gender-based inequality, that intersectionality influences the unique positions we occupy in a hierarchical society based upon gender, race and class.
Whether one earns 100k in vanilla work or through camming isn't really the point here, this discussion revolves around how our job relates to what we believe and how we perceive ourselves in relation to both ideologies (feminism, capitalism) and real world conditions of women. Your annual income (or mine, or anyone else's), has little to do with that.

Have a daughter who has to choose one or the other line of work and get back to me.

I mentioned my income only to refute the notion that office work is low-paying. It's not for anyone with good skills and experience.

loveshooks
03-02-2012, 09:59 PM
for what it's worth, I have a vanilla career and I work as a cam-chica, and my parents are equally proud of my success in both pursuits
to each their own

Aurora_Sunset
03-02-2012, 10:20 PM
Have a daughter who has to choose one or the other line of work and get back to me.

Umm, what the hell does this even have to do with anything that loveshooks posted?

Good for you for getting out of dancing and into something you enjoy that pays very well. Nobody was attacking you or your line of work. One of the VERY repeated sentiments on this site is that camgirls/strippers/escorts feel that sex work pays them better and provides more freedom than vanilla work. Nobody ever said it was impossible or claimed there were no females anywhere on the planet that didn't make good money doing non-sex work. If you're not going to be able to handle the opinion of girls on here that we think sex work is better than making minimum wage at a vanilla job that we think degrades us more than sex work, then maybe you shouldn't be here - you're gonna be getting pissed off a lot, because I think hardly a day goes by where someone here doesn't make a comment like that. This board is filled primarily with intelligent women who choose to do sex work because they feel it's best for them, so those are the kinds of statements expressed here.

Frenchie
03-02-2012, 10:27 PM
Umm, what the hell does this even have to do with anything that loveshooks posted?

Good for you for getting out of dancing and into something you enjoy that pays very well. Nobody was attacking you or your line of work. One of the VERY repeated sentiments on this site is that camgirls/strippers/escorts feel that sex work pays them better and provides more freedom than vanilla work. Nobody ever said it was impossible or claimed there were no females anywhere on the planet that didn't make good money doing non-sex work. If you're not going to be able to handle the opinion of girls on here that we think sex work is better than making minimum wage at a vanilla job that we think degrades us more than sex work, then maybe you shouldn't be here - you're gonna be getting pissed off a lot, because I think hardly a day goes by where someone here doesn't make a comment like that. This board is filled primarily with intelligent women who choose to do sex work because they feel it's best for them, so those are the kinds of statements expressed here.

Sorry you self-hate on your past or something, but attacking everyone who thinks that sex work is better than most vanilla work isn't very constructive, being that this is a sex worker forum.

Whoa! I didn't start this! Someone made a remark about low-paying secretarial work. That's an attack.

I don't hate myself for having danced, nor do I hate dancers. That doesn't mean I'd consider it equal or superior to even a minimum-wage job. It is what it is, for good or bad.

Frenchie
03-02-2012, 10:31 PM
This is the one thing that makes me feel conflicted about camming. I love camming and I've been showing people my body online since I was a teenager... It's only recently I realised people would pay me to do it. In that sense I think camming is a good opportunity to show men what women who are actually getting off look like. Porn is often so fake and come-centred that you don't often see real women having real orgasms online or just normal girls who are sexual having fun. On the other hand, I think there's more that's bad about porn than just the false-ness... porn, and camming, encourage men to see women as commodities (perhaps). That's surely not a good thing.

I wondered whether this is something that bothers anyone else. Do you worry about the ethics of camming/the impact it has on society in general for women (and men)? I don't like to think I'm involved in something which is damaging women's progress. Then again, it's something I like and make a lot of money from, so I obviously want to keep doing it!

How about we flip the script.

If porn causes men to objectify women, and women to lose self-esteem over it, do the high prices we charge cause crime because criminals spend their money on the sex industry?

Who says money has to be ALL we want from men? When I danced, I used to say "kindness and intelligence are currency" and I meant it.

BlakeDahlia
03-02-2012, 10:34 PM
Most secretarial work is low paid. Most jobs typically held by women (teachers, nurses, social workers, secretaries, child care workers) tend to be low paid. It's been referred to by some feminist scholars as "pink collar." It's not an attack, it's an observation. Just because some of these workers make a decent salary does not mean it is typical or the norm.

Aurora_Sunset
03-02-2012, 10:34 PM
I did go back and delete my comment about the self-hate because I realized that was uncalled for, and I'm sorry about it. But the sentiment that people here express thoughts like that about vanilla work every day still stands. A lot of secretarial work is rather low-paying, and nobody was personally attacking or making fun of you when they said it. As though the ladies on here should just know that there may be someone reading who happens to have a high paying secretarial position? General statements on the internet are not personal attacks.

Anyway, I get why you said what you said, and I don't want to turn another CC thread into a drama-fest, so I'll just end with I stand by my comment that you might not want to get too pissed off about comments like that if you're gonna be around here, because you will be reading a lot of them. Just take them with a grain of salt and know that nobody is personally attacking you when they give their personal opinions on different lines of work.

Bird of Paradise
03-02-2012, 11:45 PM
@Frenchie, I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm simply confused as to what your point is.
If you read through this thread, you'll notice that no one is claiming that it's impossible to earn a good living without camming, so your anecdotal experience doesn't provide much in the way of substance to the discussion. This thread has nothing to do with weighing the legitimacy of sex work vs vanilla work, rather it's a discussion revolved around the potential 'ramifications' of adult work. Many of which the contributors to this thread are knocking down like the sexist outdated tropes they are.
In keeping with the tangent raised by some of the contributors to this thread regarding differing strains of 'feminism', I'd argue that the economic opportunities available to North American women who hold both skin and class privilege are equal to white men in most ways, rendering the choice to take up camming for these women more obviously that; a choice, given many options. No one is slamming vanilla work, although some are raising their very personal objections to it. Articulating one's personal experience is very different than judging those who make alternate choices.
You're defining equality (I think, by posting your salary?) through a second wave feminist lens, but you're forgetting that 3/4 of the global female population was not-so-accidentally omitted from that discourse of 'liberation'. I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, but I believe this is what was being referenced in earlier posts relating to gender-based inequality, that intersectionality influences the unique positions we occupy in a hierarchical society based upon gender, race and class.
Whether one earns 100k in vanilla work or through camming isn't really the point here, this discussion revolves around how our job relates to what we believe and how we perceive ourselves in relation to both ideologies (feminism, capitalism) and real world conditions of women. Your annual income (or mine, or anyone else's), has little to do with that.

anyway, I'm happy you found a career that satisfies you, nothing wrong with that :)

loveshooks, have I told you lately that I love you? :cheers:
I've lost count of how many times I came upon a thread and you said something in an epic, articulate way that was exactly along the lines of what I was thinking but added much more dimension to it.

Thank you X 1,000

shywebcamgirl
03-02-2012, 11:48 PM
Never met a dancer who would have done it if she didn't need the money.

The majority of people I know wouldn't work the jobs they currently do if they didn't need the money.

Frenchie
03-03-2012, 12:03 AM
Most secretarial work is low paid. Most jobs typically held by women (teachers, nurses, social workers, secretaries, child care workers) tend to be low paid. It's been referred to by some feminist scholars as "pink collar." It's not an attack, it's an observation. Just because some of these workers make a decent salary does not mean it is typical or the norm.


I take the opposite view, that dancing is high-paying, but not really, considering that we're on display for the public (or were in my case), have a short career prime (like an athlete), etc. Not all dancers bank either.

Most "pink collar" jobs as they call them don't pay that bad at all. There are "dives" in any line of work, but anyone who wants to get ahead, should be able to. At least we don't have to let men into our professions the way the law makes them let us into theirs. Sometimes it's great to be female!

roast
03-03-2012, 02:07 AM
Most secretarial work is low paid. Most jobs typically held by women (teachers, nurses, social workers, secretaries, child care workers) tend to be low paid. It's been referred to by some feminist scholars as "pink collar." It's not an attack, it's an observation. Just because some of these workers make a decent salary does not mean it is typical or the norm.

I agree with this but wanted to mention that it isnt even an observation - it is data: http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Executive-Assistant-Salary-Details.aspx, 85K as an executive assistant = youre in like the 5th percentile, aka it is not the norm. Networking helps with any kind of vanilla job, especially ones that are entry level and pay well above avg for the field, so lbr it isnt just about experience and education.... that's an afterschool special myth about vanilla employment.

With the exception of nursing - most pink jobs pay low (on avg), one person's anecdotal evidence =/= rejection of statistical analyses of thousands. However I want to add that for some sex work isnt just about earning high - many have mentioned it here in "why do you do this" type threads: it is about flexibility and self-employment as well. For some that is paramount for whatever reason (childcare, eldercare, disability, school, income supplementation, etc)

The notion that if you do sex work you better be earning really well or youre a fool because youre on display is kind of a strange one. I think your aim should be to earn well in general - ideally highly bc this is an industry where people will always be spending and there are risks and stigmas involved that should be taken into acct... but beyond that it basically means "you should be ashamed of this and earning well scrubs out the shame" - which to me is... well, a sign of someone else's baggage that they can keep on their way spiraling towards an ugly fallout. Usually the ppl who say versions of that are intolerant of about income fluctations or worse highly resentful/suspicious of those who arent weighed down by that conflict. Often their posts become increasingly sanctimonious, drama-baiting, and their tenure here ends with some explosiveness or a ban.

Every time.

It took me some real work to overcome my own internal sex work stigma - undoing years of social messaging is serious labor. So when encountering sex workers who embrace the stigma in full force, I just get tired. So... they can keep their baggage.


The majority of people I know wouldn't work the jobs they currently do if they didn't need the money.

yea, haha seriously. not sure why this argument is always posed when sex work comes up? I dont know many people who are working jobs of passion. I know plenty who love their hobbies and free time though, which (depending) usually sex workers have more of than your avg wage worker.... or they can schedule it in on a whim at least. Which, again, speaks to why not everyone does sex work just for the financial perks.


This thread went on a bit of a derail - the question was is it bad for women, not is it bad for you as a random individual.

PippySweet
03-03-2012, 07:33 AM
This thread went on a bit of a derail - the question was is it bad for women, not is it bad for you as a random individual.

Slightly true, perhaps! I was really just wondering whether this was something that people had given much thought to, and I certainly got my answer to that. I'm really grateful for such articulate responses. My own opinion has really been that I think pornography and camming etc are indicative of a wider societal problem rather than being a cause of it, but I have worried in the past that I'm playing into a bad trend, and that kind of worry isn't really overcome by arguments like those that say that if it weren't me doing it someone else would be. That's like saying no one should be a vegetarian because it won't stop people farming meat. It's about integrity rather than the idea that my not doing something is going to have a direct impact. That said, I really don't feel that camming compromises my integrity. If I did I wouldn't do it. The (generally) solo nature of camming reduces the opportunity for the content to be about degradation or subordination or whatnot, and I think is a good example, in general, of how pornography can be arousing without being ideologically problematic.

Also, amen to this. I've never understood the arguments for why sex work per se is bad. You commodify some aspect of yourself in whatever you do, why sex should be so different can only be down to some strange societal prejudice:

The notion that if you do sex work you better be earning really well or youre a fool because youre on display is kind of a strange one. I think your aim should be to earn well in general - ideally highly bc this is an industry where people will always be spending and there are risks and stigmas involved that should be taken into acct... but beyond that it basically means "you should be ashamed of this and earning well scrubs out the shame" - which to me is... well, a sign of someone else's baggage that they can keep on their way spiraling towards an ugly fallout.

Frenchie
03-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Slightly true, perhaps! I was really just wondering whether this was something that people had given much thought to, and I certainly got my answer to that. I'm really grateful for such articulate responses. My own opinion has really been that I think pornography and camming etc are indicative of a wider societal problem rather than being a cause of it, but I have worried in the past that I'm playing into a bad trend, and that kind of worry isn't really overcome by arguments like those that say that if it weren't me doing it someone else would be. That's like saying no one should be a vegetarian because it won't stop people farming meat. It's about integrity rather than the idea that my not doing something is going to have a direct impact. That said, I really don't feel that camming compromises my integrity. If I did I wouldn't do it. The (generally) solo nature of camming reduces the opportunity for the content to be about degradation or subordination or whatnot, and I think is a good example, in general, of how pornography can be arousing without being ideologically problematic.

Also, amen to this. I've never understood the arguments for why sex work per se is bad. You commodify some aspect of yourself in whatever you do, why sex should be so different can only be down to some strange societal prejudice:

Giving honest answers to why sex work is negative is difficult in a place where people will want you silenced for bringing it up.

We can ask how we'd react to our children doing it, but without getting that controversial, how about I ask if you'd marry a guy who does gay4pay porn? That would seem to be an equivalent.

cherryblossomsinspring
03-03-2012, 09:58 AM
Another thing that always makes me so angry about the "you are degrading womankind" feminists is that I think that the female body SHOULD be worth something.

(Sorry - I'm going to post a lot. I've been in the industry for nearly eight years - that's a lot of time to bite my tongue and smile at moron "feminists" who choose to attack me for what I do. Those thoughts then stew for a while. and make an appearance here...)

I'm all for the idea that my "womanly" traits are WORTH something.

Many "feminists" tell me that my sex should be private, and should never be put on show, used to sell something, or be sold. At the same time, you tell me that I should be able to shag any man (or woman) that crosses my path, with impunity, without being called a slut...that I should be allowed to wear the skankiest clothes I want without anything being said about it, that I should just generally participate in this giant "sexual revolution" that occasionally sounds to me like just generally slutting it up without consideration.

Now lets think about that for a second. What do we call something that is freely given, left, right and center, talked to death, available to all, not used to promote anything, not used to create desire or demand, and not sold?

That's right...we call that something WORTHLESS.

Well guess what? I want to be able to sell my sexuality, and myself as a sex object, because I think that female sexuality IS worth something. I think it is a commodity. I think we should consider ourselves as holding something precious, something of immense power and worth.

I don't want to give that away for free. I don't want to be told that by acting in a way that tells the world that I think my body and sexuality is worth something is degrading to my sex. I think that being told that my body and sexuality is NOT worth something to be degrading.

I'm kinda rambly now because this is such a hot button topic for me...sorry if I stopped making sense....but you get the gist.

Bottom line, I have something of immense worth, that I can sell, and yet still keep. Who wouldn't sell that? If you had a magical re-generating Ferrari, that you could give away in the morning, and then a new one would pop up in your garage in the afternoon, wouldn't you make your living selling Ferraris?!?!?!?


This exactly! I have noticed that women get a pat on the back for being sluts and giving it up for free requiring or desiring nothing back However on that same note if she's getting paid , she automatically depicted as a bad person. I don't know about the whole feminist part of things but I hear this from men on a very consistent basis. I have gotten guys in my room that have specifically tried the reverse view of " I don't have to pay" because _____ gives it to me for free yet they are still on the site.

Some men will turn to cam sites and porn for their sexual education. That's why when I do shows and some guy tells me he wants to get me off but proceeds to dictate how my body will respond to his direction , I ask him straight out " do you want me to get off or do you want me to fake it?". When he is willing to learn then I'll teach him but if not then I'll continue to allow him to be a fool. Some men go to cam sites just for their own gratification others are looking for a mutual enjoyment and do not want a woman faking an orgasm.

Some men are going to be lazy and use porn for everything they possibly can. They don't all take the time to read up on a woman's body, learn the different parts, ask question etc. Some are taught that if they keep moving it back and forth she will eventually cum even if they can only last all of 3-5 mins. After some trial and error some men will just continue on this lazy path and others will ask questions. How many people asked questions in school? How many people just hoped someone else would blurt out the answers for them?

Now with porn many orgasms are faked so I could never take this as education but just plain old entertainment. With camming you have a live person interacting with you. So if a guy is asking you what gets you off and is going to pay for a full show that will allow you to have an orgasm then there's a 90% chance you'll actually be able to show him what gets you there. Where else can a man learn without his ego being affected by what he may not be able to physically provide to a woman that requires him to last longer than his 2-3 mins? Or what about the man that never gets hard? How can he even begin to ask a woman in person how he can please her if he has limited ability. I think camming does a wonderful job in allowing even that fastest orgasmers or limpest cocks to get women off. I mean does anyone really want to be the woman that has to be disappointed for free by these men? I think not.

cherryblossomsinspring
03-03-2012, 10:00 AM
How many free one night stands have actually been sexually gratifying to both partners involved? It's a rare occurrence because most people are not automatically sexually compatible. In most cases 95% of men probably get off even if deemed "bad she's just laying there sex". Are woman's numbers the same? Not even close. I don't think it's "feminists" that are doing the most complaining about what women are doing with their bodies. It's mostly men that either don't want to pay or can't pay. I don't have feminists running in my room saying " give it to me for free" . Those are men. Men are also the ones talking about women being " sexually free" to have sex like they do. Why do you think this is? Because if the can brain wash you into giving it up for free then they don't have to pay for it. I know I'm not the only one that see this trend. It's also why the term " slut" is more so talked about in a nicer sense than the term " whore". If I called another girl a slut she would giggle that off and almost find it to be a compliment. Call her a whore and someone's is about to end up dead. All of this comes back to men not wanting to pay to get laid and expecting it for free. Why of course he'll love a slut over a whore any day. It makes sure that he doesn't have to work for it, value it or appreciate it.

Even if you leave the camming out of the study and just deal with many men in general. Many men view sex for money as gross. If a woman wants to be wined and dined for while before fucking her mate the guy will typically stop seeing her. It's taking too long for her to put out and he can start on someone new, perhaps someone that's " cheaper". Maybe a few beers and she'll fuck me or really I'll fuck her after she's passed out. I know this last statement is more so date rape but many men will not see it that way. They will just see it as "sex". I was so curious about men and what they would do that I would purposely act wasted. I wanted to see how many would try and still have sex with me and how many wouldn't. There was only 1 our of 10 that started and stopped because he just didn't feel it was right. The others were feverishly fumbling on getting my pants off , hands shaking, breathing heavily. I was completely sober. Once they got to a certain point, I sat up and kicked them out. Did I just attract some losers or would most men take this as great opportunity to add a notch to the bedpost?

What I never understood was why buy me drinks? How about just hand me the money? Seems to be more straight forward but the guys never viewed it this way. Why buy me dinner, just give me the money? Fuck sitting awkwardly across from you and talking about shit that we will not really care about in a few minutes. But this is the normal mating dance. Let me pay for a few things, seem mildly interested, act interested in her "even though my head is saying pussy , pussy, pussy 30 times over", get her a few drinks to make her easier to get into and I'll be doing the " I got laid dance" .

Even in strip clubs I notice this delay in getting a dance. I didn't understand that. Same with cam. Why all this talking? You think I'm cute, you like my body lets do it already. Now because men are paying in these sexual situations they are much more choosy . Similar to that of women going out on a date. If the guy is cheap or pushy then he's usually not getting laid. Same with a dancer or cam model that says " wanna dance , take me private" the guy gets turned off. Why doesn't she talk to me for awhile? Her hustle isn't good enough etc etc. It's like you have to reverse mind games on men for their money that most men would play on women to get laid for free. The more interested you are in what he has to say the more likely he'll part with his money. Same with women. The more interested he is in what she has to say and the more generous he is with his money the easier it is for her to part her legs.

Money and sex and Sex and Money.
To me I see it as the same in reverse.

That's why a dancer can see the " 2am suit wearing guy" as broke same as
The cam model that can see the guy with " money " in his name as broke.

and
The regular woman that dates the guy that talks about the money he makes or the women he's had as a broke bad lay.

I totally went all over the place on this one. My point is that camming is actually helping men. For the guys that want to see women abusing themselves sexually, that's always going to be there. Be glad this guy is not out there physically forcing himself on a woman to abuse her himself. You have no idea what's happening to that man in his personal life. He could be a hideous man that gets ignored by most women, he could have a female boss that makes his feel small and insignificant. He could live at home with his mother and hate that again she caught him jacking off in the kitchen. Some men are really fucked up.

cherryblossomsinspring
03-03-2012, 10:00 AM
Now lets try to flip things. Many women are taken in by romance and drama so bad that we infact create our own drama scenes in relationships. Is that not mentally fucked? We see the "Notebook" and think hey I want that. Love me til death but how realistic is that really? How realistic is monogamy? I know it's expected of a partner that claims true love and commitment but how realistic is it in a society that promotes cheating? Society is really a place where everyone is pushing their beliefs on others. If one group in society has a larger audience based on media outlets then you may be lead to a new view. After enough pushing you may adopt that view as your own.

We look at other society's as sick and twisted. Some countries marry 6year old girls and have sex with them at that age. We see that as sick. But an 18 year old can fuck a 70 year old man. We find that gross but not illegal. Our society deems an 18 year old as an adult so this sexual connection is purely consensual. Had it been a 15 year old girl and a 67 year old man then we would consider him a rapist. 3 whole years makes such a huge difference?

Look at Courtney Stodden. How many people ( women mostly) have made fun of this child. Yes I said it (CHILD). Yet the pedo that married her isn't getting as much flack as he should. Now yes she's out there and loves the attention but she's getting hate from many women when it's the grown ass man and the parents that should be under investigation.

Seems as though everyone looks to women for the answers when shit goes wrong but when things are right it's because men are holding it down.

cherryblossomsinspring
03-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Don't get me started on orgasms and what's deemed a mature orgasm or what's deemed a childish one.

Free sex will always be viewed as great for men
Having to pay and beneficial for women will always be deemed bad.

Aurora_Sunset
03-03-2012, 11:30 AM
My own opinion has really been that I think pornography and camming etc are indicative of a wider societal problem rather than being a cause of it, but I have worried in the past that I'm playing into a bad trend, and that kind of worry isn't really overcome by arguments like those that say that if it weren't me doing it someone else would be. That's like saying no one should be a vegetarian because it won't stop people farming meat. It's about integrity rather than the idea that my not doing something is going to have a direct impact.

In regards to the notion that it's society that is bad but pornography plays into it with its increasingly "degrading" depictions of women, I would have to say that maybe it's true that pornography has trended in certain directions because of the demand in society, but not that it's necessarily a bad trend. Or that it's necessarily degrading to women. I'll put myself out there and say that my favorite kind of porn is generally "degrading" stuff - gangbangs, rape scenes, rough blowjobs. This is generally considered "degrading" pornography and a lot of people say it promotes violence toward women... but... I am a woman and I enjoy this type of porn. I enjoy these types of fantasies and would love to be involved in playing them out myself. The polls pop up all the time that say that rape roleyplaying (not actual rape) is one of the number one female sexual fantasies. I can tell you it's definitely one of mine. I honestly believe that many more women watch "degrading" porn than want to admit it. It's hard to speak up about such intimate fantasies when angry anti-porn feminists are screaming about how degraded we should feel by such things.

But even though I like this kind of porn, does that mean that IRL, I can't separate these ideas of male power from my own world and I let men walk all over me? Of course not! These are my fantasies and what I enjoy watching and would like to roleplay in my sexual life, but they have no bearing on what I actually think the roles of men vs. women in everyday society should be. Likewise, even men that enjoy this kind of porn should be able to separate their sexual fantasies from how they view and treat women in everyday life. If they can't, that's on them - not the porn.

I completely understand your argument against the idea that "we may as well do it because if we didn't, someone else would." It is about integrity, and I would encourage anyone who does feel degraded by sex work to not do it. Some people have the mindset to get through it, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with saying "this isn't right for me." But I don't think the notion that porn plays up a societal problem should be taken into account, because that implies that porn is bad for women because it promotes the patriarchal idea that men are dominant over women. Just sayin' - I like "degrading to women" porn as much as any male. Maybe there has been an uptick in society's demand for this type of porn, but society does not = patriarchy. There are women consumers of porn and women consumers of rough porn as well as men. If there are women out there that enjoy this type of porn (even if they are smaller in number than men), then I can't really agree that this is a bad trend in society for women. We are also consumers of porn, and there may be women who hate that kind of porn because they feel it depicts women's roles "wrongly," but you could find someone who hates any kind of porn because they feel it's "wrong," but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. It's just not what they're into, but that doesn't mean that every woman would find it offensive. And the overall point there, as I mentioned above, is that if men can't separate their sexual fantasies from how they treat women in real life, that's a problem with them, not the porn. And I don't think porn should tone down it's supply from the demand (of both male and female consumers) just because some people are too stupid to act like thinking adults.

Fridays
03-03-2012, 12:04 PM
I love being degraded... feels so good.... I wanna be degraded like whats her name in that video I posted a long time ago... 10 men, taking turns, thats my ideal.
Maybe in another life..............:D
Lets just admit we love it and stop beating around the bush::)

space_cowgirl
03-03-2012, 01:43 PM
I am very interested in the idea that sex work is not the only arena of being 'on display'. I've never felt more on display (and powerless to control it) than when I worked in retail.

Bianca Brazil
03-03-2012, 02:52 PM
Sex work is only degrading when you are not making enough money. Sex work is empowering because it affords you a lifestyle otherwise impossible for other people.

Aurora_Sunset
03-03-2012, 03:10 PM
I am very interested in the idea that sex work is not the only arena of being 'on display'. I've never felt more on display (and powerless to control it) than when I worked in retail.

This was another point I was thinking of last night after I went to bed, but didn't want to get up just to post it. I don't know if it was this particular thread or a different one where girls were talking about how every job they've ever worked, they would get daily comments about how they're "too good to work there" and having/not having a ring on their finger. It's 100% true. Not a day goes by at my vanilla job where I do not get comments from several guys about how "fine" I am and how I should be married so I didn't have to work there. Just the other day I had to deal with a guy for an extended period of time who kept making innuendos relating to how "sweet and innocent" I looked but how I must really be "naughty." (If he only knew right? lol) But seriously, nothing makes me more uncomfortable and feel so little as to be in a job where I can't just snap at someone making comments like that and walk away or kick them out of my chat room. Sure, places like to tout their "no sexual harassment policy" but how many managers would really back me up if I told off a customer and walked away because he was telling me to "turn around so he could see what we're working with in the back"? They'd just tell me not to be so sensitive to idiots and make me go back out there... then call me a drama queen behind my back.

Even women nowadays aren't particularly standing up for other women being harassed by idiots. For some reason, I feel like a lot of the younger generation has shifted to a mindset that they have to be "cool" and in order to do this, they have to do everything possible to not look like "angry feminazis" - which means being all "oh, it's ok, boys will be boys" in response to inappropriate male behavior, or even turning on their own womankind and joining the camp of morons that blame women for their own rape because "we should know better." They're so damn worried about appearing "laid back" and non-confrontational to guys that they turn on themselves and their own rights. I think the norm of society lately is to downplay how much women are shit on in normal day to day occurrences that nobody really pays attention to, and only amongst sex workers do I see some ladies reclaiming the notion that we have every right to demand how men treat us and to walk away from them if those demands aren't met.

I feel like it's much better for women to be in a space where they are allowed to set the rules and boundaries about their sexuality and what they will accept in terms of behavior from men. So if anything, it's sex work that is good for women as long as we maintain our boundaries, and society has a problem with how it treats women who aren't sex workers and don't have freedom to assert themselves in the same way.

ETA: (I'm definitely not saying society doesn't have a problem with how they treat and look down on sex workers, or that we aren't marginalized by most, but that's a completely different topic, and my point was simply that the women out in day to day to life get just as much disrespect but nobody does anything about it - but in sex work, we have the power to do something about it, even if it only starts in our own little microcosm. And I think it is important that we embrace that.)

shywebcamgirl
03-03-2012, 07:19 PM
Giving honest answers to why sex work is negative is difficult in a place where people will want you silenced for bringing it up.

We can ask how we'd react to our children doing it, but without getting that controversial, how about I ask if you'd marry a guy who does gay4pay porn? That would seem to be an equivalent.

It may surprise you that Camming Connection has been scolded by more than one person on more than once occasion for being TOO negative about sex work.

Even though I am completely confused to why a guy who does gay4pay porn would be equivalent to being a camgirl, it wouldn't bother me at all. If anything I'd find it a breath of fresh air to be in a relationship with another sex worker. He would probably understand my trials and tribulations more so than someone who wasn't in the industry.

Also, why would I have to marry? Couldn't I just live with my gay4payporn guy?

As for the whole 'children issue', I made the choice to be childfree years ago. May I humbly suggest that if the children issue continues to be troublesome to you in the future that it something you might want to consider for yourself.

Aurora_Sunset
03-03-2012, 08:15 PM
^^Pretty much all of this. Why would I have a problem with dating another sex worker? (I also agree that I don't think a gay4pay porn actor is equivalent to a camgirl, but even then, no I wouldn't have a problem). And if I ever did, by some stroke of fate, have children and they wanted to work in the sex industry, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't set standards for others that I wouldn't for myself. (Not a personal attack on anyone, just my philosophy on the matter). Plus, asking how we would feel about dating a sex worker or our daughters becoming sex workers, I think leads back to this:



the question was is it bad for women, not is it bad for you as a random individual.

The question was is camming bad for women in general - like does it set us back in society. Not how we view the consequences of the job on individuals and whether we would recommend it to them or be ok with them doing it themselves. I think hardly anyone can deny that sex work can have some very negative consequences on individuals mentally, emotionally, physically, reputation-wise... but that's a different matter from the question of whether porn is making the world a worse place for all women.

Lovelyme
03-04-2012, 01:16 AM
Hells no. You are only an object if you let yourself be one. This job puts us in charge of our own futures, the limits are endless! I personally think flipping burgers and stockings shelves are far worse for the "woman kind" than doing this.

and to add.... for the rest of the ladies, when you start feeling like you're damaging yourself through camming, quit!
There are other things you can do in the sex industry. The adult industry is supposed to be fun whether it's camming, escorting, stripping..etc. When you start feeling like you HAVE to do this to make money, it's time to find a 9-5 and move on.

shywebcamgirl
03-04-2012, 10:30 AM
and to add.... for the rest of the ladies, when you start feeling like you're damaging yourself through camming, quit!

I totally agree with this! Whether you feel like you are damaging yourself through camming or any other job, try to find something else ASAP. The downward spiral is a hard one to drag yourself out of.

ashiepants
03-04-2012, 12:17 PM
I don't think sex work is bad for women unless you don't use your career to your benefit. Yes, too many woman leave the industry with low self esteem, feeling like they were degraded and cheap. Those women aren't cut out for it - just like alot of women also aren't cut out to be a police officer or doctor (because of not being able to handle the pressure or seeing people die). Not every job is for everyone. But the sex industry is the only industry where we can take mens greatest weakness and use it to achieve our goals and dreams. Not saying men are weak, but if guys are going to spend money on something, its going to be sex. In a world where women are still seen as second class in alot of workplaces, in regards to pay, treatment etc...its empowering to me that I can work on my own terms, be in complete control of how much money I make and not be controlled by the system. The sex acts itself (be it porn, camming, escorting etc) is only degrading if you think it is. I don't think it is at all though - plenty of women go out and have a one nite stand because they're horny, or send naughty pics and texts to their crush or bf...why is it worse that we get paid for it when others give it away for free?

SarahTime
03-04-2012, 02:18 PM
plenty of women go out and have a one nite stand because they're horny, or send naughty pics and texts to their crush or bf...why is it worse that we get paid for it when others give it away for free?

This reminds me of when my husband was actively recruiting models for his solo girl sites back in the day.... he would ask a girl about modeling, and lots of the girls he shot had non nude tease sites, and they would say "OMG I would NEVER take pictures like that for money!" And he's like.... wtf... have you SEEN your myspace/facebook page? You have tons of half naked photos of yourself with hundreds of comments about how hot you are... yet.... you won't profit off that. Because it's "slutty" to get paid for what you are giving away FOR FREE??? MMmmmmk then.

christinarita
01-09-2013, 01:54 PM
No way is it damaging. If anything it's empowering. I am 40. I have been through the educational system, marriage and divorce, being a stepford wife in a small snobby town, and lots of office jobs. In all of these roles I felt damaged and held back as a woman. I am a sexually expressive person and my body is part of my expression, yet in the office we are required to surpress our body and our sexual side and think "like a man", goal-oriented, linear, focused. I was "respected" only if I showed those qualities, kept my head down, focused on projects, etc. At best I could aspire to being nothing more than an inferior "man".

Since I started camming I have discovered that there is a place for all of my more chaotic and less orderly "feminine" sides, for creating sensual spaces with colors and textures, giggling, being dumb if I want to, or being smart and forceful, dressing up, acting out fantasy. I can express all sorts of contradictory behavior that cannot be logically explained other than that it's fun and feels good and gets men off.

So hell yea, I'll do this until I'm 80 if it's still fun! I'll be one of those old wrinkly cam models with a big red smile. And as long as there are pervs in this world, someone will want me!

christinarita
01-09-2013, 01:54 PM
No way is it damaging. If anything it's empowering. I am 40. I have been through the educational system, marriage and divorce, being a stepford wife in a small snobby town, and lots of office jobs. In all of these roles I felt damaged and held back as a woman. I am a sexually expressive person and my body is part of my expression, yet in the office we are required to surpress our body and our sexual side and think "like a man", goal-oriented, linear, focused. I was "respected" only if I showed those qualities, kept my head down, focused on projects, etc. At best I could aspire to being nothing more than an inferior "man".

Since I started camming I have discovered that there is a place for all of my more chaotic and less orderly "feminine" sides, for creating sensual spaces with colors and textures, giggling, being dumb if I want to, or being smart and forceful, dressing up, acting out fantasy. I can express all sorts of contradictory behavior that cannot be logically explained other than that it's fun and feels good and gets men off.

So hell yea, I'll do this until I'm 80 if it's still fun! I'll be one of those old wrinkly cam models with a big red smile. And as long as there are pervs in this world, someone will want me!

Timor
01-09-2013, 02:39 PM
With all of the gorgeous, independent, smart, insanely humorous women I call my coworkers...can I just marry all of you and live on a commune with boobs and no pants and kittens?

No. I do not worry that camming is bad for women. This is a job for me. I clock in, I provide a service, I clock out. Another day, another dollar, and I don't feel in any way objectified. Going on what roast said, on a side note I DO want to be objectified. While I am on shift, if I am not being objectified "oh so sexy bb", then I am not making money. If somebody off shift is judging me or objectifying me because I'm female or because I work in the sex industry, that's where I have the problem. I make it very clear to my customers that they cannot have ME, but they can have what services I PROVIDE. I have my favorite quote in my signature. We all sell ourselves in life, but this is exploitation on my terms. That's fucking empowering! That's not degrading! To be able to set the terms in which you are getting exploited? Not many people in even the more higher-up of positions of what have you are able to do that. They even have to abide by set schedules. We abide by schedules....but only the ones that WE set, that work best for US.
Everything I do is on my own motivation, my own standards, my own choices. Porn is not to blame for people's behaviours, people are the ones to blame for their behaviours.

I don't believe porn is inherently bad. Look at the stuff by Nina Hartley and the majority of the porn that comes from Adam&Eve. It's relatively classy and tasteful and fairly well-directed. But what about some of the actual movies out there? I'm not talking porn on this one. I'm talking movies you'd see in the theatre. If the guy who created "I Spit On Your Grave" or "The Human Centipede" ever came into my cam room I'd be banning him in a hot fucking heartbeat, because there is no way on God's green earth that I want to provide a service to somebody who has managed to come up with something that fucking horrible, that shows that degree of torture on a human being.

ThatBitch
01-09-2013, 02:58 PM
I see this is an old-ish thread and I don't have time to read through the whole thing, but I'm going to say that NO camming or any other sex work is NOT bad for women. Anything that enables women to be independent, pay their bills, call the shots in their own lives is NOT a bad thing. It is misogynistic woman-hating bullshit that perpetuates these retarded old notions. Women who buy into this crap and outcast each other for using men's weakness for sex to empower themselves are just projecting their own self-loathing onto others, trying to bring everyone else down. The so-called feminists who claim we're "making things harder for women" and lowering ourselves are just self-hating bitter twats who WISH they had the balls to break out of the jailhouse that patriarchal society tries to keep women in and do what we do. LOL

I'd rather be an outcast of society than live in the jail that these tards would put us all in.

aleciaxxx
01-09-2013, 03:03 PM
men who come to these sites already see women as objects most of them anyway not all them. If they see women this way it's because they had a bad example to follow not because of porn or camming

kitty101
01-09-2013, 11:55 PM
Absolutely not. If you are truly conflicted about camming and don't think it's right, then I would highly recommend leaving...some people can't deal with it. Not saying that YOU ARE one of those people but just in general

CarmenF
01-10-2013, 08:33 AM
i dont get it either. camming lets us take advantage of our BRAINS because you need to be smart and have fantasy. what make me as a HUMAN feel like an object is those jobs where my brain and creativity are suffocated. THAT is bad. plus it s feminism that brought miniskirts, shorts, bikinis... where men have total power women are covered up and treated like poop. like it was here some decades ago where a cheated husband could MURDER the cheating wife.

domino.damoiselle
01-10-2013, 10:19 PM
Honestly, I think Hooters girls are far more objectified than sex workers. I worry about that being bad for women! :O

sammii
01-11-2013, 01:31 AM
I never felt more objectified when I had a grown man screaming at me at my old vanilla job ... or when I was cleaning toilets (okay, I wasn't actually cleaning them ... I brought the cleaning supplies into the bathroom and texted for 15 minutes, lol). ... my old female supervisor pretty much hated any female who was younger and prettier than her (wasn't too difficult, she was pretty heinous looking).

Finally, I feel free. Screw people who try to bring me down because they think camming is wrong or derogatory towards women. I love my job.

Marina Starr
01-11-2013, 06:31 AM
Not at all because I can only represent me. I can't speak for or represent other women.

KimKlass
01-11-2013, 08:53 AM
I think people who think we are being "objectified" and "degraded" are just fucking ignorant. They mostly have no clue what we do (just as cam girls), and they try to fill in the missing info with a bunch of false bullshit. First of all, I believe that we can only be degraded if WE decide we feel that way. Nobody decides that for us.

Secondly, I don't believe in words like "slut" and "whore". They just do not compute for me. I don't acknowledge them as valid terms.

Thirdly, I don't understand how cam girls are "sluts", because we don't touch anyone but ourselves! Since when does masturbating with an audience make you a slut? And even if we were fuckin' and suckin' whose damn business would that be? And I feel those attitudes are even worse when they come from fellow women. I hate listening to women run their mouths about porn and the sex industry from atop their high horses, because they don't even realize that our patriarchal society planted that shit in their heads. Women are taught to scorn the sexuality of other women. That is why we still have rape victims being asked what they were wearing during their assault, just for example.

I also can't stand hearing porn or cam girls being blamed for straying husbands and boyfriends. It is NOT our responsibility to screen your man to make sure he's single before he busts out the credit card or wanks to a video.

IMO, any feminist who I hear disparaging adult industry workers (not the industry, the individual workers), are automatically seen by me as full of shit. There are much bigger problems with the status of women in the world than me fucking spinning a prize wheel and flashing my tits on cam to pay my bills. They can fuck right off with that noise.

Lastly, I'll just say that I have NEVER felt degraded as a cam girl. Ever. The only time I ever felt degraded was at all those soul-sucking, wage slave retail and restaurant jobs where I got treated like dirt by customers, and like a child by managers. I'll take this form of "degradation" over your shitty "values" any day, thank you very much.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm drunk haha.

JustineSexton
01-11-2013, 02:37 PM
Here's the simple truth:

Camming doesn't hurt women, it empowers us! For thousands of years, women were 2nd class citizens in a man's world--and we were treated like sex objects during the entire span of humanity. Before, men told us to spread our legs, and that's what we did. Now, I choose to spread my legs, and I demand that the man on the other side of the cam open his wallet, he promptly replies, "Yes ma'am, anything you want".

The simple truth is, I take advantage of what I have and is in demand, and I charge the SHIT out of anyone who wants to enjoy my time.... and I make a hell of a lot more than most of the women out there who bitch about my profession.

And how does all that power make me feel? Like a BOSS! (flex)