View Full Version : Canadian transgender beauty queen kicked out of Miss Universe
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 09:54 PM
BDD is Body Dymorphic Disorder or BIID Body Integrity Identity Disorder. In which a patient does not feel connected with one's limbs. So to solve their issue they will either manually decapitate their own limbs or ask to have it surgically done.
Kellydancer
03-26-2012, 09:56 PM
Nobody said that but if you really think what Rosa dealt with in taking a stand which jail, assault, and death were really possibilities and Ms.Talackova situation is remotely similar...well...I don't know what to tell you.
Not to mention how many leaders in the Civil Rights movement were murdered. While this transgendered woman may be murdered by someone the chances aren't high, unlike those in the Civil Rights movement who were. Quite frankly I am tired of people using Rosa Parks as proof of discrimination for other unrelated issues. There was a psycho illegal in Illinois who was hiding to avoid deportation and she compared herself to Rosa Parks and people were livid.
The_Adict
03-26-2012, 10:00 PM
You are correct. The situation is not similar. But the prejudice and the ignorance are.
I don't know Canada's policy towards transgenders/gays/lesbians so I can't comment on their prejudice and ignorance towards the group.
luscious sadie
03-26-2012, 10:01 PM
I seriously don't get how some of y'all are so into closing your eyes and ears about transgendered people not having some kind of "mental problem" or "made up disease" that we should "all play along with". Are you serious? Why is it so hard to believe that this is a THING that is REAL? How is it so hard for you to look at the facts? Do y'all believe that gay is a choice? Do you not believe that society dictates a lot of how we act?
Why is it that there are some of you so against looking beyond your beliefs and looking at data and studies to educate yourselves? Why refer to someone who sees themselves as a "she" as a "he"? Would you like it if people walking down the street referred to you as "whore" instead of "person"? Don't we owe people the courtesy of calling them what they want to be called and what they DESERVE to be called?
It isn't like it costs money or is going to actually HARM you to not be like, an activist against trans people. There are some of you in the thread who are actively saying that they don't deserve the same rights as someone who was born the gender that they want to be and are actually supporting the views of those who are denying them rights.
Check yourselves! We are fringe people to, just based on what we do. We are constantly disrespected by people who probably feel the say way as far as not opening their eyes and not accepting that someone else could be. *GASP* a PERSON and not just a WHORE.
Not to mention how many leaders in the Civil Rights movement were murdered. While this transgendered woman may be murdered by someone the chances aren't high, unlike those in the Civil Rights movement who were. Quite frankly I am tired of people using Rosa Parks as proof of discrimination for other unrelated issues. There was a psycho illegal in Illinois who was hiding to avoid deportation and she compared herself to Rosa Parks and people were livid.
the instance of violence against trans people is incredibly high. And in a lot of countries, where no one likes trans people (or even gay people), the murders and crimes against trans people go unpunished and not documented.
firemaiden04
03-26-2012, 10:01 PM
I went to college with a girl who was born a man and was gradually undergoing a sex change (which by the way is a long, painful and difficult process, not just a single surgery) and she got the shit kicked out of her on a regular basis, ending up in the hospital with serious injuries more than once.
Cammi
03-26-2012, 10:01 PM
Wow. Can't believe the argument here is about 'who's responsible for enforcing the rules?' rather than 'why does Miss Universe have such a bullshit rule?'
By the way, I know we have a couple of trans girls in the camming forum. Any of you anti-trans people feel like popping into one of their threads to post these opinions?
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:02 PM
Nobody said that but if you really think what Rosa dealt with in taking a stand which jail, assault, and death were really possibilities and Ms.Talackova situation is remotely similar...well...I don't know what to tell you.
Jail, assault and death are very common experiences for trans women. And it's the same hate, the same ignorance and the same prejudice whether it is banning them from participation or beating them to death with a fire extinguisher. The same sentiments that I am reading in this thread can often times have a very poisonous outcome. Yes, in this example it is being disqualified from a pageant, not riding a bus but hate is hate, prejudice is prejudice and ignorance is ignorance.
BlkSharpie
03-26-2012, 10:05 PM
I think a lot of people really are ignorant about transgender people...it's not like these people were like, "Hey, you know what? I think I'm going to go get a surgery to get different genitalia!" It would be like if I was exactly the same as I am now except I was born with a penis.
And transgender people DEFINITELY experience serious discrimination in everyday life. Not to mention the fact that most laws don't cover discrimination against them. I think it's weird how lots of people don't seem to have a problem with discrimination against these people and are like, "Oh, it's totally different than the situation before the Civil Rights movement." Fifty years from now, everyone's going to look back and be like, "Wow, what a bunch of cruel, ignorant bigots."
So on point...I really do hope that at some point in my lifetime, this sort of discrimination is no longer normal and mostly learned about in history books. And I do see it happening...at one time a family consisted of a man, a woman, and 2.5 children :D When I was a kid, that whole "nuclear family" thing was a huge deal...and it was actually a huge deal to accept that a single parent with child was in fact a family, grandparents or an aunt raising a kid was in fact a family... My sister was in the age where her and her husband having a child together, a mixed child was like *gasp omg no!* and now something that was so wrong at one time is normal and accepted. We are in the midst of accepting same sex couples raising a child as a family... with that, those kids, and thier friends will see that as the new normal, and with that as they grow up, will see transgendered as normal as well, who will also have families of thier own, kids who will grow up knowing that its normal, and it will keep moving forward, even with people fighting it every step of the way, slowly but surly we are evolving, developing as a people, and becoming accepting of people for who they are, not what they are, what they look like all that as a reason to judge and dismiss them.
I can also assure you, even what we know now, we will keep evolving, something else will be on the horizon...as human beings, we never cease to amaze :D The first transgendered operation was when..in the 70s I believe? and I dont think it was until the 90's that it became more widespread. I do think about how absolutely horrible life must have been for people before this happened, who never felt right in this world, who felt they didnt belong and did not have this option. and I know that there are people who feel that way today, they are not gay, or straight, no need or desire to be transgendered, or anything that exists today...they just feel out of place, not normal, and have no idea where they fit in, and then one day, some sort of progress will be the answers they have been looking for.
And the "hilarity" of it is..there will be people of all races, cultures, sexual orientation, religions, who will look at them and say...well now thats not normal. And they will have to fight for thier right to be seen as equal. But I do really hope that there comes a point where people are less concerned about what someone else does, what they look like, who they have sex with, and what body parts they have, and more concerned with their value as a human being.
And I can honestly tell you...that is why Im so passionate about topics like this... my own worth as a human being has been questioned and challenged so much for dang near my entire life...not only for being black in certain situations, not at all for being female, but mostly on a very personal level that has affected me on some major levels, that there is just no way on this earth I can look at any human being, and say that I do not value them *as a person, as a human being, as an equal* That is something I am completely powerless to take away from another, especially when in my own little world, I have to remind myself I deserve that too.
Kellydancer
03-26-2012, 10:08 PM
the instance of violence against trans people is incredibly high. And in a lot of countries, where no one likes trans people (or even gay people), the murders and crimes against trans people go unpunished and not documented.
I don't disagree but this is Canada and Canada does have laws as far as I know to prevent things like that from happening. But this isn't about that it's about her not being in a beauty contest that clearly states only natural females.
Cammi
03-26-2012, 10:09 PM
What the hell, gonna post this thing I wrote for my tumblr:
As a sex worker, I am heavily stereotyped by society. I will fuck anyone for a £5 note. I snort a kilo of coke a day. Daddy never loved me. I dropped out of high school. I can’t handle a proper job. And based on these assumptions, I face being insulted and abused by a vast number of people. I just want to begin by throwing that out there.
Today I was having a chat with a few other sex worker friends and one of them decides to tell us a story about a bad craigslist experience. In doing so, she manages to insult a whole group of people (and no, I’m not saying which one). Ok, I figure, no big deal, that’s just ignorance. She doesn’t realise how rude what she said is. So the rest of us inform of how offensive some people would find her statement. What do you think she did? Do you think she apologised and took that knowledge on board?
Well, if she did I wouldn’t be writing this entry.
Nope, this girl thinks it’s a good idea to stand her ground, to explain that this group’s concern isn’t “real”. Then she pulls out the “some of my best friends are X” move. And THEN she comes up with the “well, if this is offensive you need to tell me why” gambit. In the end, I walked away. There’s nothing you can do against willful ignorance.
Now here’s the thing. I liked this girl. A lot. And more than any 3rd party outrage or anger I could feel, all there is is disappointment. I’m disappointed that someone I liked could turn out to be so horrible and I’m disappointed that a potential friendship had to be cut short. Because there’s not many things I consider dealbreakers but bigotry is one of them. You attack any group of people and I am done with you.
This is the point where I tie in that first paragraph. This girl is also a sex worker. She faces everything that I just talked about. And I find it disgusting that someone who puts up with stereotyping, abuse and mistreatment from society would then turn around and pass that back onto somebody else. We should understand. We should get it.
I realise that as a Western white female I am almost as privileged as it gets (yes, there’s still some issues facing women here but really the only way I could be better off is by being a dude). Before I started stripping, I really didn’t get that much in the way of intolerance. And I realise that in that position, the burden is on me to be tolerant and understanding. I should not need to be told why some words or actions are hurtful, all that matters is that they are.
We like to put labels on things. Man. Woman. Straight. Gay. Bi. Black. White. Trans. Disabled. Mentally ill. But here’s the truth: none of these things matter. Any person, no matter what their label, is capable of being awesome or terrible. Don’t judge people for who they are, judge them for what they do. The way I see it, there’s only one label that matters. Human.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Not to mention how many leaders in the Civil Rights movement were murdered. While this transgendered woman may be murdered by someone the chances aren't high, unlike those in the Civil Rights movement who were. Quite frankly I am tired of people using Rosa Parks as proof of discrimination for other unrelated issues. There was a psycho illegal in Illinois who was hiding to avoid deportation and she compared herself to Rosa Parks and people were livid.
So many trans women are murdered every year that there is a website dedicated to them.
http://www.transgenderdor.org/
Feel free to educate yourself.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Being kicked out from a pageant for lying isn't hate or ignormance. Isn't Miss Universe a role model of truth and honesty? Lying sets a bad example for the children of the universe. Then again, why aren't intergalactical members being added to this pageant? Maybe a green woman with three eyes and four arms? Why couldn't it be called Miss Earth. Universe is stretching things a bit. But it's not my pageant it's Donald Trumps" and if he says " born female only" then those are his rules.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 10:13 PM
If people don't want labels then they shouldn't enter contests that subscribe to them. Call it Universal Person then.
Kellydancer
03-26-2012, 10:19 PM
Ok then if they should remove the rule about being natural woman then here's this rule from their site:
ARE THERE AGE REQUIREMENTS?
Yes. Miss Universe and Miss USA contestants must be at least 18 years of age and under 27 years of age by February 1st in the year they hope to compete in the Miss Universe or Miss USA competition. Miss Teen USA candidates must be at least 14 and under 19 years of age by February 1st in the year they hope to compete in the Miss Teen USA competition.
So going by this since I am 41 I will lie to compete then when I get disqualified I can say they are discriminating because of my age.
Here's another one:
CAN CONTESTANTS BE MARRIED?
No, contestants may not be married or pregnant. They must not have ever been married, not had a marriage annulled nor given birth to, or parented, a child. The titleholders are also required to remain single throughout their reign.
I have many friends who have kids and married maybe they should enter too.
See what I mean? Or how about a man enters and claims discrimination or so many other variables.
MommieLongLegs
03-26-2012, 10:20 PM
Honestly, I don't understand why she (that's right, she) was kicked out. It's not like being born male was an advantage over the other girls. I bet she would've won.
What about women who are born with both a penis and a vag? Would they be disqualified?
Someone said earlier in the forum "NO MAN, whom is heterosexual will accept a trans as a woman. He is still a man!".......that is simply not true. A lot of guys might not admit it, but if a trans woman looks the part, they at least look.
There are plenty of guys who have hooked up with a trans woman.
Cammi
03-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Ok then if they should remove the rule about being natural woman then here's this rule from their site:
So going by this since I am 41 and I will lie to compete then when I get disqualified I can say they are discriminating because of my age.
Here's another one:
I have many friends who have kids and married maybe they should enter too.
See what I mean? Or how about a man enters and claims discrimination or so many other variables.
These are all also valid points. 41 year olds are beautiful. Mothers are beautiful. Men are beautiful.
Pink Chelle
03-26-2012, 10:28 PM
Honestly, I don't understand why she (that's right, she) was kicked out. It's not like being born male was an advantage over the other girls. I bet she would've won.
What about women people who are born with both a penis and a vag? Would they be disqualified?
Someone said earlier in the forum "NO MAN, whom is heterosexual will accept a trans as a woman. He is still a man!".......that is simply not true. A lot of guys might not admit it, but if a trans woman looks the part, they at least look.
There are plenty of guys who have hooked up with a trans woman.
Yes they look. That is all they do!
If they know it's not a natural woman, they don't want any connection.
Do your own survey to find the truth.
The_Adict
03-26-2012, 10:34 PM
Jail, assault and death are very common experiences for trans women. And it's the same hate, the same ignorance and the same prejudice whether it is banning them from participation or beating them to death with a fire extinguisher. The same sentiments that I am reading in this thread can often times have a very poisonous outcome. Yes, in this example it is being disqualified from a pageant, not riding a bus but hate is hate, prejudice is prejudice and ignorance is ignorance.
I'm not debating Transgenders don't face everyday struggles or discrimination. Rosa Parks and Ms. Talackova faced very little similar in their situations. If you believe that banning someone from a beauty contest who didn't inform the runners of the contest something that could have been an issue (Which it was) and beating someone to death with a fire extinguisher is the same hate. I don't know what to say. I couldn't disagree any more.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:34 PM
Being kicked out from a pageant for lying isn't hate or ignormance. Isn't Miss Universe a role model of truth and honesty? Lying sets a bad example for the children of the universe. Then again, why aren't intergalactical members being added to this pageant? Maybe a green woman with three eyes and four arms? Why couldn't it be called Miss Earth. Universe is stretching things a bit. But it's not my pageant it's Donald Trumps" and if he says " born female only" then those are his rules.
A trans woman isn't typically a man who decided to become a woman. Instead she is a woman who was born with the wrong parts. Typically it's a very confusing situation to be born in. The individual is at odds with his or her own genitals which seem to be contradicting who he or she is, depending upon whether this is a trans woman or a trans man. Such an individual tends to go through life feeling completely left out, unable to successfully engage in relationships or to have any sense of self. Often times he or she will try to fit in and create a persona or a false self to deal with the world, in other words a trans woman will try to be the man she is expected to be, sometimes getting married and having children in hopes that it will help her to become normal. It isn't until such an individual is able to transition that he or she can begin to engage successfully in relationships or overcome the feeling of existing behind a false self. Before transition trans men and women tend to feel invisible and unable to participate in life. Because no one ever gets to know them for who they are, no one ever recognizes them for what they are. Many trans men and women only risk transition once their will to live has been fully exhausted, prior to that the thought of transition is often too scary, too uncertain, too risky and too expensive. Many engage in transition knowing they will loose the support of their friends, family, church, employer... And face the risk of not being able to maintain employment after transition and along with that reduced ability to support themselves they become much more prone to becoming the victim of a hate crime.
A woman born with the wrong genitals (i.e. a penis) is still a woman. People who were born with genitals that don't contradict who they are often times have a difficult time understanding the plight of a trans person. Often times people who were born "right" just assume that penis = man, vagina = woman. Unfortunately this is not true for trans men and women.
For a trans woman to say that she has always been female, that may seem like a lie to someone who was born "right". But for the trans woman she is expressing a simple truth. And because of that simple truth she has a much more difficult life than others who can take themselves and their bodies for granted. If you were born "right" then congratulations, that's awesome. And maybe you can be generous and offer trans men and women a little compassion or understanding.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Why is it just about transgendered people with GID ? What about people with BID here's a video on this disorder educate yourself. The doctor goes into how people have laid on railroad tracks to get rid of their limbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gwsjtl5ZZJs&list=PL59E62576B9ED2C29
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 10:37 PM
A trans woman isn't typically a man who decided to become a woman. Instead she is a woman who was born with the wrong parts. .
Look at this video where people generally feel incomplete with having limbs and desire to be put in their proper body without them ( limbs).
MommieLongLegs
03-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Yes they look. That is all they do!
If they know it's not a natural woman, they don't want any connection.
Do your own survey to find the truth.
Not true. A lot goes on behind closed doors. We should know! We do crazy shit everyday (not sayin being with a transexual is crazy) that these guys would probably never admit to doing/liking beyond our cam rooms.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:43 PM
If you believe that banning someone from a beauty contest who didn't inform the runners of the contest something that could have been an issue (Which it was) and beating someone to death with a fire extinguisher is the same hate. I don't know what to say. I couldn't disagree any more.
Different people express prejudice differently. Some exclude others, some murder others. Same prejudice, same hate.
Excluding trans women from participation is prejudice. It isn't that trans women are different. It is that prejudiced people treat trans women differently. Make sense now?
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:47 PM
Yes I know. Look at this video where people generally feel incomplete with having limbs and desire to be put in their proper body without them ( limbs).
That is using the same logic that other people use to deny gay marriage, saying that people will start marrying cat's and dogs. Sex is different than arms and legs. Sex isn't just a thing between your legs, it's also a part of your identity, your thinking process, your socialization, your relationships... your brain, your mannerisms. Being male or female isn't the same thing as being an amputee.
It is only the same if you are trying to say that trans people are crazy which is what you seem to be saying.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 10:53 PM
Different people express prejudice differently. Some exclude others, some murder others. Same prejudice, same hate.
Excluding trans women from participation is prejudice. It isn't that trans women are different. It is that prejudiced people treat trans women differently. Make sense now?
The contest calls for " born" women not "trans" women. This is a distinction that was made at the start of the competition. The contestant lied.
They don't want people over a certain age
They don't want anyone married
They don't want anyone with children
They don't want anyone involved in any relationship for the duration of their reign as "Miss Universe"
any of these rules not being upheld would equal removal ie disqualification. These are the rules set forth for the pageant. Anyone not wanting to adhere to said rules can avoid the pageant all together.
Rules being broken shows an issue with integrity. A person that can't exhibit the highest in integrity has no right to be a role model for young women.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 10:54 PM
Why is it just about transgendered people with GID ? What about people with BID here's a video on this disorder educate yourself. The doctor goes into how people have laid on railroad tracks to get rid of their limbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gwsjtl5ZZJs&list=PL59E62576B9ED2C29
I understanding you are trying to tell us that trans women are just crazy men and you are saying that crazy people are all the same. I am already familiar with BID, it's a medical condition. Being transsexual is also a medical condition. But you are trying to say that if one group is crazy then the other group is just as crazy (as far as I can tell) in your effort to say that trans women are not women. I prefer to judge people on a case by case basis whereas you seem content to judge entire groups of people. That's the definition of prejudice BTW.
Pink Chelle
03-26-2012, 10:55 PM
I'm not debating Transgenders don't face everyday struggles or discrimination. Rosa Parks and Ms. Talackova faced very little similar in their situations. If you believe that banning someone from a beauty contest who didn't inform the runners of the contest something that could have been an issue (Which it was) and beating someone to death with a fire extinguisher is the same hate. I don't know what to say. I couldn't disagree any more.
LOL
If a trans has lied to a man, they are forcing their views on someone that may not be in agreement.
Everyone is entitled to their own personal preference.
Some will react violently out of feeling compromised.
No one wants to be fooled or lied to.
BlkSharpie
03-26-2012, 10:59 PM
But GID is exactly that. Gender Identity Disorder or Gender Identity Dysphoria. So if you feel this thin woman has " body image issues and low self esteem" that's the same as saying someone that doesn't identify with their gender/sex as having "body image issues and low self esteem".
Many women that have anorexia nervosa or bulimia feel that when they look in the mirror they are fat. Now many of these women die from over exercising and not eating and being poorly malnourished.
Say the girl eats alot but she can't gain weight to match her desired BBW weight yet she identifies as a BBW. Again she may feel she's been discriminated against because of this if she is bared from entering the competition.
GED is not exactly body image issues. One has to do with gender identity, one has to do with...body issues. I will actually take the bait though and say that I would not be surprised if someone who is transgendered had low self esteem when they felt they didnt feel right about themselves, and sought out surgery, therapy and treatment. Once they are at peace with themselves, and have reached the end of their journey, the finally have that opportunity to be confident and comfortable with themselves.
Someone who is still deep in the midst of struggling with an eating disorder is not at that point where they have been able to find their resolution and find peace within themselves. They are still struggling with feeling they are not right, and that is why I mused they likely would not have the confidence to even enter a beauty competition in the first place.
Also you brought up your child being from two different races which obviously makes the child mixed or biracial. So If the child entered a black beauty contest the child will still be accepted because the child is still part black regardless of what percentage. It was there when the child was born and it will be there when the child dies. Race isn't something someone can change.
You give the the logical answer. But realistically..when someone talks about a beautiful black woman, nubian queen, african sister...the image of my daughter is not remotely close to what they intend. Would she qualify? Absolutely... Is that how she would be perceived? Id be lying if I said yes. Now I will say, the idea that race isnt something you can change...that opens up a whole other thing of things :D If my daughter wanted to say she was white, no one would say otherwise. Actually, it would be easier for her to say she was white, since she gets more crap from people either shocked she is black, or flat out telling her she isnt black. Can she change that she has a black mother? Nope. Can she change that she has a white father? Nope. Can she change how she identifies herself? Absolutely.
And I can tell you, back in the day, there are many people who if they could pass for white "changed thier race" for the sake of having better opportunities and making their lives easier. And its not just blacks/whites...people from different ethnic backgrounds have passed for other races as well. While it seems cut and dry that no one can change their race...people have actually been doing that for centuries now.
Aaaand, to bring it back around to this particular topic, there are men who pass for women, and women who pass for men..live their lives as such, are known as such, with people around them none the wiser. They may not have changed physically, but they changed their sex, live as the other sex, and go on with their lives. So wildly complex, there just isnt a cut and dry, you can do this, you cant do that.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 11:05 PM
Because black slave owners in America often had sex with their slaves.. Their slaves occasionally gave birth to white looking children. These white looking blacks would occasionally hide the fact that they were born of a black mother in order to integrate into Society as whites and in that way they could enjoy better treatment. Some got married to white men and women without telling them that they were actually part black. There was a time when if it was found out that such an individual had hid their ethnicity they might be killed by an angry husband or by angry in-laws. I read an article about a black man who was beaten and nearly killed (often) because his black wife looked too white.
Many trans women just want to integrate into society as the women they feel they have always been. Some men think it is okay to kill them, just like it seemed okay to kill your wife if she turned out to be a white looking black. Just like it may seem okay to some people to kill a black man for kissing a woman who looks white.
I hope that Society continues to become less ignorant and is able to begin to better recognize prejudice.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 11:05 PM
I understanding you are trying to tell us that trans women are just crazy men and you are saying that crazy people are all the same. I am already familiar with BID, it's a medical condition. Being transsexual is also a medical condition. But you are trying to say that if one group is crazy then the other group is just as crazy (as far as I can tell) in your effort to say that trans women are not women. I prefer to judge people on a case by case basis whereas you seem content to judge entire groups of people. That's the definition of prejudice BTW.
Wow so you're calling people with BID crazy? So much for your open mindedness and understanding. These people don't feel whole with these limbs. They feel whole without them. It's prejudice of you to feel that their issues are less important than people with GID. They are both disorders and they are both important to the people that are going through them. Some people have committed suicide with BID too. For these people their sexuality is being comfortable with their body. If they have limbs that they don't feel they should have their entire being feels off.
BlkSharpie
03-26-2012, 11:10 PM
............did you all hear that? My brain just exploded.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 11:11 PM
Wow so you're calling people with BID crazy? So much for your open mindedness and understanding. These people don't feel whole with these limbs. They feel whole without them. It's prejudice of you to feel that their issues are less important than people with GID. They are both disorders and they are both important to the people that are going through them. Some people have committed suicide with BID too. For these people their sexuality is being comfortable with their body. If they have limbs that they don't feel they should have their entire being feels off.
Except you were using BID to invalidate people with GID and no I wasn't calling them crazy, rather you were using BID in that context (to invalidate trans women) and I am calling you on it.
The_Adict
03-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Different people express prejudice differently. Some exclude others, some murder others. Same prejudice, same hate.
I'm sorry again, they're not the same hate imo. If you want to believe banning a person from a likely 50/50 fault situation and beating someone to death is simple case a different expressions, same hate. Right on. You're entitled to your opinion. Go free will!
Excluding trans women from participation is prejudice. It isn't that trans women are different. It is that prejudiced people treat trans women differently. Make sense now?
We're going in circles. You're arguing social issues. I'm arguing simple what occurred. I don't know the motives of everyone in the case and don't assume shit. Here's what happened: Ms. Talackova lied or didn't disclose information that effects participation in a beauty contest. Talackova participates. Contest finds out she is biologically not born a women. Removed.
mediocrity
03-26-2012, 11:36 PM
I'm not surprised. I mean.. I have worked with strippers and um.. I have worked with strippers. Ya know?
While I get what you're saying, I have come to expect the girls that participate here are the creme de la creme in the intelligence department.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-26-2012, 11:39 PM
Except you were using BID to invalidate people with GID and no I wasn't calling them crazy, rather you were using BID in that context (to invalidate trans women) and I am calling you on it.
Who is invalidating anyone?
I'm mearly bringing up people that have a similar issue. Dysmorphic Disorder be it Gender or Body are pretty similar. Or are GID individuals part of a "special group" that deserves special rights? I thought this was about equality not special treatment.
lifetravelergirl
03-26-2012, 11:43 PM
Who is invalidating anyone?
I'm mearly bringing up people that have a similar issue. Dysmorphic Disorder be it Gender or Body are pretty similar. Or are GID individuals part of a "special group" that deserves special rights? I thought this was about equality not special treatment.
^_^ If you think treating a woman who was born with a medical condition (a trans woman) like a woman, is special treatment ... Then I have no hope at all of expanding your mind with knowledge
mediocrity
03-26-2012, 11:44 PM
This is a very compelling video. I don't cry easily at all, and this really got me. All of you who are "confused" about transpeople, ignorant about them, or just plain choose to ignore their status in the community need to watch this:
cherryblossomsinspring
03-27-2012, 12:03 AM
^_^ If you think treating a woman who was born with a medical condition (a trans woman) like a woman, is special treatment ... Then I have no hope at all of expanding your mind with knowledge
If you think that people with BID are psychologically crazy yet consider people with GID as only having a medical condition then your hope for expanding my mind should be returned inward on your own.
lifetravelergirl
03-27-2012, 12:40 AM
If you think that people with BID are psychologically crazy yet consider people with GID as only having a medical condition then your hope for expanding my mind should be returned inward on your own.
I never said that, I was trying to make sense of your use of BID to invalidate trans women. Nice bait and switch though ^_^ so cleaver.
luscious sadie
03-27-2012, 12:47 AM
you can't argue with someone who is unwilling to listen to reason, truth, science, individual's experiences... why someone wouldn't listen to all those things is beyond me.
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 01:00 AM
Okay, Ive just got to say..BID, GID, that has nothing to do with, and not exactly like someone who is transgendered. Its one thing to come up with situational examples, but another to hijack the thread entirely with a completely different agenda. The whole idea that being transgendered is just a matter of trying to get rid of body parts is way off base. And I will say also, amputees do not carry the same social stigma as what transgendered do. They face a different set of struggles, both internally and socially. Its not exactly the same...at...all. Not to say one is better than, more important than, more hard than, more whatever than....just completely different issues at hand.
While I fully support your passion for BID/GID, instead of hijacking this thread, understand that it is a different topic and deserves its own thread if you choose to do so.
ETA: I am not a mod, I have no power here, just an annoyed member who was quite enjoying this debate...until now.
camille27
03-27-2012, 11:09 AM
i always find it odd to watch one marginalized group attempt to dehumanize another. because sex workers belittling transpeople is incredibly ironic. as if some of you ladies forgot what you do for a living. mercy me.
I can't believe that sex workers would be so deliberately ignorant.
Wow.
luscious sadie
03-27-2012, 02:31 PM
i always find it odd to watch one marginalized group attempt to dehumanize another. because sex workers belittling transpeople is incredibly ironic. as if some of you ladies forgot what you do for a living. mercy me.
well realistically, it's only four of them in their "he's wrong" circlejerk. Let them have it.
Laurisa
03-27-2012, 03:49 PM
I think that if you are born female or have gender reassignment surgery to become female then you are female. The same is true for males.
If a beauty pageant is for women then all females should be allowed to enter. The same is true for males.
In regard to the comment about "would natural born females be allowed to enter a transgendered beauty pageant?", no, but why would they? Transgendered people don't always flaunt the fact that they used to be the opposite sex, and most of them want to be considered the sex that they transitioned to all the time. So a transgendered person is whatever sex they choose to transition into through surgery, hormones, etc.
Also, I've never heard of a transgendered beauty pageant. I've heard of drag shows, but those are for men who dress like women and then go home and are men again. Drag queens and transgendered women are not the same thing, at all.
This argument could be likened to the "natural born U.S. citizen" versus "naturalized U.S. citizen" (as in they obtained citizenship after their birth). A naturalized U.S. citizen has all of the same rights as a natural born U.S. citizen with the exception of running for President of our country, which makes sense. But regarding everything else they are considered identical, there is no difference anymore because they are both U.S. citizens. The same is true for a natural born woman and woman who became a woman through a surgical procedure.
Sophia_Starina
03-27-2012, 04:12 PM
Trans-people can compete in the Olympics in the gender category that they identify with. The criteria is outlined in the link below:
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/05/17/olympics.transsexual/
I dunno how this applies to a privately owned franchise like Miss Universe.... but it's interesting nonetheless.
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 04:59 PM
well realistically, it's only four of them in their "he's wrong" circlejerk. Let them have it.
My main issue is the fact she lied. I am tired of people lying to enter contests or jobs or anything else while disregarding the rules. I am 41 and too old to enter Miss Universe and guess what? I accept it. I am not asking them to get rid of the age requirement. The rules state natural born so not only did she disregard this she figured the rules didn't apply to her.
Quite frankly I am tired of people who feel the rules don't apply to them. While I agree some rules are stupid and unfair they are there and she has no business changing them. And if she has the rules changed, why stop at that? why not eliminate age, marital status or motherhood status. While we are at it why not allow men to enter or how about transvestites too? Why stop with people, why not allow my cat and dog to enter or maybe a bug I found on my floor? sounds silly, right? well once one person fights rules then it opens it to more rule bending.
I haven't seen many people even mention the age requirement or the motherhood or marital status ones. Yet to me these are just as discriminatory as the natural born one.
That's why you are wrong Kelly, the only issue here is that people aren't up in arms about the contests bigoted rules. The problem isn't that she lied, the problem is that she had to. You don't fight bigotry and injustice by following the rules, ask Rosa Parks.
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 06:38 PM
I thought we already covered it that this is not the same as what Rosa Parks did...
She did not fight by lying or being deceitful in any way, she maintained her integrity and fought by standing her ground, something I wish this lady had done.
And to be honest....Im jusrt now thinking about it...what has this lady done besides lie to get into the competition?
Are there any updates to anything she is doing to fight this rule?
It would be (not so) funny if those of us who are against it, are more passionate about speaking out against this than she is.
Djoser
03-27-2012, 06:39 PM
Much as I despise Trump, if he wants to have a contest in which only naturally born women are allowed to participate, it's his right to disqualify someone for lying to him about that.
Funny, the post-op Talackova looks very much like a stunning dancer I have been working with for the last 3 1/2 years.
I don't know how far they have come with the creation of realistic vaginas for post-ops, but as man I'd be very hard to fool, and not pleased about someone failing to tell me about it. That's a whole different ballgame than just having someone in a contest though. But as far as looks goes, Talackova looks pretty damned good.
Anyway let's try to keep it cool with the accusations here.
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 08:11 PM
That's why you are wrong Kelly, the only issue here is that people aren't up in arms about the contests bigoted rules. The problem isn't that she lied, the problem is that she had to. You don't fight bigotry and injustice by following the rules, ask Rosa Parks.
There you go, using Rosa Parks for an example, with what she went through. Rosa Parks is NOT the same thing. No one has bothered to answer my question that if this LIAR (and that is what she is)LIED to get into the contest why Can't I lie about my age to get in? Same thing. Maybe I'll use Rosa Parks for an example on how older women are discriminated against from being in this contest.
She'd didn't have to lie, SHE HAD NO BUSINESS ENTERING A CONTEST WHERE IT CLEARLY STATES NATURAL WOMEN. Why are people missing that point?