View Full Version : Canadian transgender beauty queen kicked out of Miss Universe
cherryblossomsinspring
03-27-2012, 08:12 PM
Wow we're still talking about someone that lied to get into a beauty pageant? Again you cannot ever ever ever compare this to Rosa Parks and her desire to sit down and ride the bus because she was tired. This is a beauty pageant, something that not all people even attempt to enter into. How can anyone even begin to compare this to sitting on a damn bus? And Rosa Parks attempt was not at causing issues with the law, the woman was tired and there were no other seats available besides the ones designated for "whites only". She didn't alter her race or was racially in the wrong body. She was born black and was always black. The issue was about segregation of blacks and whites not about a person that entered a beauty pageant and lied.
Again You will not be able to enter as follows:
If you are not a naturally born woman
If you are married
If you have children
If you are over 27 years of age
If you are dating or plan to date or see someone while being a contestant or during your reign
YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE.
FACT 1. A contestant was disqualified already because she was pregnant
FACT 2. Talackova competed in Miss International Queen
Now lets look at the facts for Miss International Queen competition on rules.. shall we?
1. Must be born MALE, be a transvestite or transsexual ( pre and post op, proof of natural gender must be requested in the form of birth certificate or doctor's genetic verification) Note: see that GENETIC Verification)
2. Must be between 18-36 ( Sorry Kellydancer looks like you just missed out on the age requirements but you would probably be disqualified for not being born male) them's the breaks
3. All nationalities welcome but must be born in the country for which one is representing.
^There are more but those are the top 3
Now I don't see a pregnancy option there. Guess boy's can't get pregnant so it's not something they even felt the need to add.
Now if Talackova really felt SHE WAS BORN FEMALE then "she" LIED when she entered into Miss International Queen.
or wait nope rather ... Lied when entering Miss Universe... nope wrong again. Wait I'm confused. Ohh nevermind I'm not confused. It's really an integrity issue. Which LIE is the truth is something Talackova will have to answer. But either way you slice it , it looks bad. Who wants that person to win when they can't seem to make up their mind. Discrimination????
Not even close.
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 08:19 PM
I think I'm going to enter that contest and when they discriminate against me for being too old and not being born male I am going to compare myself to Rosa Parks and fight to stay in the contest. Then they will have to open it to me.
cherryblossomsinspring
03-27-2012, 08:38 PM
The only discrimination I see here is the fact that all the winners are from Earth! Wtf !!
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 08:47 PM
It's really an integrity issue. Which LIE is the truth is something Talackova will have to answer. But either way you slice it , it looks bad. Who wants that person to win when they can't seem to make up their mind. Discrimination????
Not even close.
This is the thought I brought up earlier, and why Im not quite as interested in this topic specifically regarding her and this competition anymore. She lied, got caught breaking the rules, and as far as I can tell, has gone quiet since then. She's probably thinking, well no fair, what a bummer...and thats about that. Just because she is transgendered and just because she was in this situation, does not mean she is, or wants to be a spokesperson or activist for equal rights as a woman. The same way that just because someone is gay, does not mean that everything they do is in direct relation to gay rights. People, no matter thier race, sexual orientation, gender, religion, ethnicity...are just people. And sometimes, people are just out for themselves...
That she lied, that she has nothing more to say, to me says she was just in it for herself, was not trying to make a statement, was not trying to fight for equality...she just wanted to win a pageant. And yeah, if I hear someone say one more time she is just like Rosa Parks, Im gonna bam right to the moon! :D
Anyway, I honestly do not care about pageants. Do I think that transgendered women are equal to women and should be able to compete as equals? Yup, my stance on that hasnt changed. And I do hope that if someone does have the dream and desire to be in this competition, they will fight for their right to do so...not lie and sneak, but be upfront and direct. Would be great to see this rule changed...even though Im not a pageant fan, I do recognize the importance and influence these pageants have, like when Vanessa Williams became the first black Miss America...that was a huge deal, I dont think many people dont know about that. The first transgendered Miss Universe would have a huge impact on how society sees transgendered women as well, but only if it is one who got there fair and square.
Anywazlies...blah blah blah ..
cherryblossomsinspring
03-27-2012, 09:05 PM
^ I know about Vanessa Williams being the first black Miss America. However even she had to relinquish her title due to some racy Interracial nude photos. Also on that topic you had stated about your daughter's biracial or mixed look, Vanessa Williams is also mixed. She was succeeded after she lost her crown to Suzzette Charles of New Jersey ( courtesy of wikp).
Losses happen when one makes a grave error in judgement or honesty but I think it was more about using "discrimination" as an argument that made it even worse. Lick your wounds and try another day or try another pageant. That's all I'm saying.
Both International Queen and Miss Universe discriminate. Both do it by naturally born sex and age. The point is if you can compete in one you obviously can't compete in the other. If you try both then you're lying to someone.
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 09:17 PM
True about Vanessa Williams being forced to relinquish her crown but for her it sure paid off. I seriously doubt she would have the amazing acting and music career she has now and she's actually really good at both. Miss America though is more serious than Miss Universe because they judge on many things besides beauty.
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 10:02 PM
But I thought she stepped down because of the photos being found...she didnt break any rules or anything did she?
Yeah, my example about my daughter was directly about if she wanted to enter a pageant specifically focused on black contestants. The Miss America pageant is of course open to all races. Though I have to say, I do recall a bit of hoopla about Vanessa being the first black winner, because of her european features there was that whole, well yeah technically shes black, but she doesnt look like a typical black, blah blah blah. Something like that of course is like "say wha?" nowadays, but back then, it was a big deal, like it would have been better if she looked more ethnic to be able to really celebrate her win.
Found something interesting though! Did you knoooow, that from the early 20's when the competition first started, up until the mid 40's, rule #7 of the Miss America Pageant was that you must be of good health and of white race. It wasnt until that time, when the first Jewish Miss America started the fight to have that changed, because of white race not only meant blacks were not included, but well..everyone else...native americans, asians, etc. And even though she did qualify under rule #7, being Jewish, she knew what it felt like to be discriminated against and did not feel it was a fair rule. People even pressured her to change her name before joining the competition so that she would have a better chance at winning, but she refused to. While other races, including blacks were allowed to enter, they never actually had a chance of winning. The written rule became sort of an unwritten rule...like, they can join, but they cant win.
In the late 60's a Miss Black America pageant was formed, but was protested against and shot down. And then it wasnt until the mid 80's that Vanessa won and became the first black Miss America....after her, there was also the first Asian Miss America.
I found all that interesting! Thought you all would too ;D
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm not sure but I believe Miss America had some kind of morality clause and she was forced to resign. I could be wrong though, but pretty sure I read that. I didn't know Miss America had to be white but sadly am not surprised.
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Nah, from what I read, it was purely due to the scandal that her photos caused. Especially being the first black miss america, she had an even bigger weight on her shoulders to be a good role model...she wasnt just representing herself, she was representing her race. So the pressures of all of that, and how she was being viewed is why she resigned. Neverminding that when she won the crown, she was getting hate mail and death threats throughout her reign...this whole scandal with the pics just escalated that whole aspect of the situation too.
Su Su
03-27-2012, 10:32 PM
She/he is gorgeous.
sierra.
03-27-2012, 10:44 PM
Yeah she lied, but the fact that not being born in a female body could keep her from participating is fucking ignorant. She was lying to get around a discriminatory rule... in my opinion, good for her.
This isn't about her lying, it's about the marginalization of transgendered people. Would she have been allowed to participate if she hadn't lied? No, because she didn't have the privilege of being born a cisgender woman. The lie is irrelevant.
Also, maybe it being a beauty pageant makes it seem frivolous, but to write off the issue because of this is a cop-out.
And a Miss International Queen competition requiring the participants to be transgender is not the same. It's kind of like why have a Black History Month and not a White History Month. In the case of our gender identity being accepted without question, and not being victimized or marginalized because of it, us cisgender folk have got it made. This is not the case for those that are transgender, and so having something that gives them visibility and a voice and a space to be accepted and celebrated is fucking important, and is not that same as an institution that reinforces the same old oppressive status-quo. The former should be valued and supported and the latter should be scrutinized and criticized and then hopefully rejected and/or reformed.
o0Pepper0o
03-27-2012, 10:47 PM
1. Miss Universe is stupid and shallow
2. Why the fuck is it ok to get a tit job and be "the virtue of truth and ignorance" and not to get a genital job?!
3. I've seen a lot of prettier guys who became girls than girls who are just girls. I've also seen a lot of ugly bitches who went the whole nine years for facial and body plastic surgery..SINCE WHEN IS IT ABOUT HER JUNK ANYWAYS? JUNK SHE NO LONGER HAS?!?!
I find it offensive. And ignorant. They were just trying to stop an out roar of creepy guys who watch this and don't want to find out later that their masturbatory fantasy/pillar of TRUTH AND JUSTICE was once a dude. And also has a tit job and vagina like everyone else. It's ridiculous. They should change their rules and try living in the now. This is only going to happen more until it's pushed through and people stop being fucking five.
And really, role model?!?! ROLE MODEL?!?!
God, and lord I'll never have kids for fear that their role model will be some dim witted idiot with fake everything even brains....let alone a DUDE!!
/end rant
sierra.
03-27-2012, 10:52 PM
I find it offensive. And ignorant. They were just trying to stop an out roar of creepy guys who watch this and don't want to find out later that their masturbatory fantasy/pillar of TRUTH AND JUSTICE was once a dude.
made me lol
o0Pepper0o
03-27-2012, 10:59 PM
made me lol
ya i like to throw sarcasm and humor into my more blunt statements...=p
sierra.
03-27-2012, 11:12 PM
That's why you are wrong Kelly, the only issue here is that people aren't up in arms about the contests bigoted rules. The problem isn't that she lied, the problem is that she had to. You don't fight bigotry and injustice by following the rules, ask Rosa Parks.
YES EXACTLY.
And as far as the Rosa Parks reference (might as well through my two cents in here as well) no, they are not the same. And I think we really have to be careful when making comparisons like this because we don't want to devalue or minimize the importance of Rosa Parks or the experience of black people living with this racism (then and now). But in regards to idea that "you don't fight bigotry and injustice by following the rules", this is true both in this situation and in the case of Rosa Parks. So what I am trying to say is I understand the parallel he is trying to draw here. And like I said in my first post, it's easy to write this off as "just" a beauty pageant, but to do so is to ignore the bigger issue and, like I said, a cop out. The fact that we still have people referring to a transgender woman as "he" should prove that this is about more than "just" a beauty pageant.
BlkSharpie
03-27-2012, 11:25 PM
1. Miss Universe is stupid and shallow
2. Why the fuck is it ok to get a tit job and be "the virtue of truth and ignorance" and not to get a genital job?!
3. I've seen a lot of prettier guys who became girls than girls who are just girls. I've also seen a lot of ugly bitches who went the whole nine years for facial and body plastic surgery..SINCE WHEN IS IT ABOUT HER JUNK ANYWAYS? JUNK SHE NO LONGER HAS?!?!
I find it offensive. And ignorant. They were just trying to stop an out roar of creepy guys who watch this and don't want to find out later that their masturbatory fantasy/pillar of TRUTH AND JUSTICE was once a dude. And also has a tit job and vagina like everyone else. It's ridiculous. They should change their rules and try living in the now. This is only going to happen more until it's pushed through and people stop being fucking five.
And really, role model?!?! ROLE MODEL?!?!
God, and lord I'll never have kids for fear that their role model will be some dim witted idiot with fake everything even brains....let alone a DUDE!!
/end rant
Yeah, I dont exactly agree with with competition or with them being role models, but to pretend that my opinion is going to change that or assume that no girls watch this and consider them role models because I dont think they are wouldnt be realistic.
Im not sure if you were kidding or really making a point but, I can tell you, as a mother, the best you can do is be the type of person and surrounding your kids with the type of people they can look up to and admire, and then you dont have to worry about them trying to find thier role models on tv, in the movies, in sports, the tabliods or what have you. Its true, I promise :)
Kellydancer
03-27-2012, 11:42 PM
Nah, from what I read, it was purely due to the scandal that her photos caused. Especially being the first black miss america, she had an even bigger weight on her shoulders to be a good role model...she wasnt just representing herself, she was representing her race. So the pressures of all of that, and how she was being viewed is why she resigned. Neverminding that when she won the crown, she was getting hate mail and death threats throughout her reign...this whole scandal with the pics just escalated that whole aspect of the situation too.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if she was white. However she had the last laugh and is certainly the most successful Miss America in recent years. People often forget she was Miss America and even today she is so beautiful.
BlkSharpie
03-28-2012, 12:03 AM
Makes you wonder what would have happened if she was white. However she had the last laugh and is certainly the most successful Miss America in recent years. People often forget she was Miss America and even today she is so beautiful.
Yup, that was actually an argument in her support, that had she been white, it would not have been as huge a deal. But yannow, we'll never know...it may have been a huge deal regardless. That she was already getting death threats and such, Im sure that dealing this on top of that would have been way too much to handle.
And yeah, I do think she still looks amazing!!! She was my fav character in Ugly Betty.... ;D
Kellydancer
03-28-2012, 12:15 AM
I loved her on Ugly Betty as well and felt she showed her acting ability very well. I wonder if the scandal hadn't happened where she would be now. Probably not the star she still is. I wonder that if it happened today if people would make a fuss, I doubt it, but the 80's were a very conservative time and her being the first black Miss America she did have a lot of scrutiny.
OJenni!
03-28-2012, 12:21 AM
She choose to compete in a transgendered pageant prior to her transition. Bad move on her part IMHO. you can't have your cake and eat it too. That's totally double dipping and that right there should have been the disqualifying matter.
As for "natural born woman" that statement can be debatable as sex and gender are different things. Most trans people feel that they were meant to be the opposite sex from the time they were born. So yes in that sense she is a natural born woman.
Djoser
03-28-2012, 02:41 AM
OK sorry, too many reports and people pissed off about this thread, so it's being closed.