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roast
04-07-2012, 02:02 PM
So are you guys going to:

1. Sign your real names to this petition so it can be verified as real signatures and not a stuffed petition
2. Make this petition public
3. Stop working on SM within a certain timeframe if the petition demands arent implemented
4. Begin to reduce your dependence on one site by working sites that actually *do* all of the things youre looking for?

Because for #4 there are a few sites out there that do all of the things people have grievances with SM over. The problem is people dont log into them--- the bigger problem is people are branding themselves less (see bubblegum's posts) and arent driving traffic themselves ever, which reduce site owner's incentives to even keep creating sites like that (aka freechat optional, no nudity enforcement, higher payout %, etc). If youre super dependent on a site and pretending youre an employee not someone renting out space on their site, said site is already getting paid very well, then that site has no incentive to enact change bc youll always come back... and if you dont come back handfuls of others like you will do so. While youre doing that sites that people could be giving a chance fold every other month and new sites spring up that are just SM and MFC clones. May as well click 'delete' once the petition hits your inbox :shrug:

Plus you guys know that SM admin reads here already? That was demonstrated a few months ago in a big drama burst. Nothing on SM has changed since they lurk bc there is no reason to do so. They are a business, your arguments has to impact and reflect their bottomline, all else is noise.

Calls to action like these come up every 6months it feels like. People want the shortcut and easy way to create change in a massive industry so theyre like "let's make a petition that the site owner will probably never see or will just delete". Splitcam other sites, support independent cam sites, work freechat optional sites as well, brand yourself, recruit cam models for sites that pay higher percentages and enforce rules. Or just in sum: reduce your dependence on one site?

Seems like the easiest solution. It is tough to do but is doable. Prove to camsite owners that camgirls dont just lazily flock to whatever site will pay them the most in the short term and will promptly abandon any site that wont pay them much in the shortterm.... even if it compromises their boundaries and business acumen... which is often what these threads end up looking like.

Just reduce dependence if you have serious enough grievances. If you dont then evidently you dont want to deal with the growing pains of change either... and not only that your bottomline is king too, right?

:shrug:

roast
04-07-2012, 02:28 PM
Man, when the dictionary is broken out during a forum debate....

Look since slavery is still very much a real thing (https://www.freetheslaves.net/SSLPage.aspx?pid=348) - like, I mean, I-


lol I cant hahaha whatever

bubblegumbitch
04-07-2012, 02:47 PM
to even try to compare this to slavery is unfathomable, esp when there are ppl out there who are still real life slaves and would LOVE to be able to have the freedom to make the choices that we can every. single. day. ....it is just a mellow dramatic attempt to stir the pot.

again, some woman have they're pimps in this industry, choose to bitch and complain about the control they have on them but yet don't make the individual choice to just flat out walk away and think for themselves. i guess there are lots of woman that just choose to be bots in this industry, following the same old mindless pattern.

HaydenBlue
04-07-2012, 03:25 PM
slave [sleɪv]
n
1. (Law) a person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property
2. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) a person who is forced to work for another against his will
3. a person under the domination of another person or some habit or influence a slave to television
4. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) a person who works in harsh conditions for low pay
5. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering)
a. a device that is controlled by or that duplicates the action of another similar device (the master device)
b. (as modifier) slave cylinde


LOL Slavery?! Come on you guys, get real here.

In our line of work this is the only form of "slavery" we have:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxa623LQGW1qgvnq9o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAI6WLSGT7Y3ET7ADQ&Expires=1333923329&Signature=NEvZE7SUlgYI3GcI3bAq1cjyfe0%3D

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lui9jvJ78r1qmvzbko1_500.jpg

I don't know about you but I like it. }:D:D

Busygirl
04-07-2012, 03:27 PM
do these sites or industry legally own you? NO. do they make u do things against ur own personal will? NO. do you choose to work for these sites and industry? YES.

.....you are only being pimped if YOU decide to be pimped. take control over urself ladies...

Yes, the contracts we are made to sign if we want to work for this company own our content, likeness, real or fictional persona, real name to use forever and ever and whichever form they choose whatsoever without compensating us in any form. I dare to think if this was attacked someday in court ( maybe in 50 -100 years when the mentality will change towards this industry) such things would not fly.

HaydenBlue
04-07-2012, 03:34 PM
Yes, the contracts we are made to sign if we want to work for this company own our content, likeness, real or fictional persona, real name to use forever and ever and whichever form they choose whatsoever. I dare to think if this was attacked someday in court ( maybe in 50 -100 years when the mentality will change towards this industry) such things would not fly.

You gave your rights to the company when you signed your name on that dotted line. Accept it. You were not "made" to sign anything. No one threatened you. No one forced you to do it. That is the way that company wants to run things.

You wanted to work with them. You said, "Yes."

Are you guys just bitter because you actually read over the terms of the contract at a later date and are pissy because you can't take it all back?

Read the terms of your contracts.

Either accept what you cannot change at this given moment or walk away from it.

Fridays
04-07-2012, 03:47 PM
I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one..

CassieHeart
04-07-2012, 04:34 PM
Wow Just Wow... I really didn't see this thread turning out like this. But all this anger lately really proves a point that we are all frustrated with how this business is at the moment. Maybe a petition is not the way to go but i am sure if we all put our heads together we could find a solution. We should be gearing all this frustration towards a solution and not each other.

SarahTime
04-07-2012, 06:40 PM
I love SM. :) I'm not a slave, I don't mind how the site is run, I'll take my 35% because the traffic they give me can justify it 10 times over. 50% of $0 is still $0.

If you don't like SM, get off the site. You are FREE to do that. But you (the collective "you") won't.... and why is that??? Oh that's because the site makes you money, and you know it!

Seriously, shit or get off the pot! You don't like it? LEAVE. Simple as that ladies. :)

p.s. I think Melonie's theories on bandwidth from converting models vs. non converting models makes perfect sense. I also like/agree with Melonies suggestions on higher percentage, but with house fees in place to weed out some of the models on the site that are COSTING MONEY instead of MAKING money.

CassieHeart
04-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Unfortunately the Like it or Leave attitude Isn't going to get you very far in any business or work place.
I cant help but think that some of these girls are working for SM.

Fridays
04-07-2012, 09:57 PM
since nothing is perfect in this world...( maybe just mother nature lol or who knows..)..., we could say that everything can be improved for the better.
not trying just because the initial agreement said you;re not allowed to try just amazes me...

In any type of relationship, lets go back to the real world for a bit... things change... people change..and eventually things are done differently.. hopefully for the better.

IN REAL LIFE... if we were what we are here." independent contractors" for lets say a construction company, we would not be SCAAAAAAAAAAARED to go to the boss and say " listen... if I/we do this like this,,, it might be better for the both of us, what do u think"?

its not that SM is not good, or other sites are not good.. but they can be better..
i remember when cams.com used to send ALL models surveys ASKING the models how can THEY( the site), improve the site..
I seriously felt so appreciated that day... like" hey, your opinions matters, since YOU make US money"
...
bla bla bla... bla bla bla... bla bla bla...

ManyRoses
04-07-2012, 10:11 PM
Unfortunately the Like it or Leave attitude Isn't going to get you very far in any business or work place.
I cant help but think that some of these girls are working for SM.

Actually, "like it or leave it" is pretty much how EVERY business is run. I would possibly expand on that by saying: like it, leave it, or work your way to the top and earn a voice to change it.

I cannot think of a single business that allows employees to just ask for stuff that they want and then get it, let alone contractors who are renting a space at that business.

This is also how renting homes, getting utilities, buying clothes, prodcuts, supermarkets....in fact, this is how life in general works! I'm not trying to be a negative nelly, and I think that there are lots of ways to affect change where you want it, if that change is reasonable. But for the most part, I don't think that petitioning for things that are unreasonable is the way to go. And I am very aware that "reasonable" is a perception, and that what I want may not be what someone else wants. I have chosen to work with SM the way that they are. I will suggest things that I think are beneficial for all parties (like offline tipping). But I don't think that those suggestions need something as aggressive as a petition - they just need some e-mails to support as a suggestion.

And no, I don't work for SM, other than as a contractor and a camgirl.

SarahTime
04-08-2012, 12:13 AM
Unfortunately the Like it or Leave attitude Isn't going to get you very far in any business or work place.
I cant help but think that some of these girls are working for SM.

Some of us actually like SM and just because our opinions differ, does not mean there is some conspiracy going on here.

The "Like it or Leave" attitude is, like ManyRoses said, how most business is actually run. And it's actually how the real world is run, as she also said. My like it or leave it attitude has done nothing but make me MORE money, so I would say it's taken me pretty darn far. I was on webcams.com, didn't like it, so I left. I was on MFC, didn't like it, so I left. Now I'm on SM making more money than I have on any other site. I'll stay here until I don't like it anymore, then I'll leave. That's just the way it works.

I am not against asking for things from Streamate. By all means, if you have a good idea - TELL THEM! I'm sure they would be completely open to hearing GOOD ideas that will benefit BOTH parties. These new Gold Show tweaks they just made, they made because a lot of girls requested them. They do listen if it makes sense for them.

The reason I say "like it or leave" is because most of the models who get all into this "petition for change" thing are girls that hate some of the KEY aspects of SM. They are not going to change their general way of doing things, why would they? It WORKS. They are not going to take away 30 seconds free, they are not going to take away gold shows, they are not going to change these types of things so to get them to try is just a waste of time and energy. If you have an idea that makes SENSE and does not change the major aspect of their company, by all means, tell them and I'm sure they will take it into consideration. But petitioning for higher percentages or to get rid of gold shows or drastic things like that is just plain silly.

justanothercamgirl
04-08-2012, 08:05 AM
Once again I agree with Busygirl.
There would be nothing to fear if lets say 50-100 camgirls ( verified only has over 100 members, not all working SM, but still the majority looks like they do) would respectfully make some suggestions to the site.


How do you know there would be nothing to fear? That is one hell of a hedge bet to make with your job. The vanilla job that I saw all the people who rocked the boot get fired there was about 30 of them in total. When asking me to join their cause, they also told me with certainty that nothing would happen to them either since there was so many of them.

Once bitten, twice shy as they say.

GlamourRouge
04-08-2012, 08:47 AM
How do you know there would be nothing to fear? That is one hell of a hedge bet to make with your job. The vanilla job that I saw all the people who rocked the boot get fired there was about 30 of them in total. When asking me to join their cause, they also told me with certainty that nothing would happen to them either since there was so many of them.

Once bitten, twice shy as they say.

I agree. No one is afraid at all, but its common sense. And its not the smartest statement to make considering another girl on here complained to SM that this one girl was doing free shows in free chat repeatedly and they banned her members account and flagged her model account with harassment charges. And SM also reads this board so they see what we write. Not to mention, these things have been asked for a million times. Lastly, what makes one girl money, makes other girls nothing. And vice versa. Therefore its also illogical.

Melonie
04-08-2012, 09:05 AM
Lastly, what makes one girl money, makes other girls nothing. And vice versa.

Actually, under today's market conditions, other girls making nothing SUBTRACTS from the money that some girls have successfully made ... due to the inherent 'subsidies' present in today's flat 35% ( or whatever ) revenue splitting formula.

From a pure financial standpoint, just like strip clubs, no webcam host should be obligated to provide a 'free' facility ( that is actually far from free ) for marginal girls to TRY and sell themselves to the webcam host's 'finite' customer base. Every strip club owner is going check out the 'goods' that any new dancer has to offer before allowing her anywhere near the club's stage and customers. And if the club owner is able to quickly summize that the new girl doesn't 'measure up', that girl is simply going to be politely 'rejected'. With tens of thousands of girls now looking toward cam work, webcam hosts arguably have a duty to both their investors and their more productive existing camgirls to do the same ... before the marginal new camgirl is provided with a 'free' video stream ( that her paid sales revenue level can't actually cover ), before the marginal new camgirl diverts the attention of the webcam host's 'finite' customer base by offering 'digital extras' ( which makes future sales by more productive existing camgirls more difficult ) etc.

And similar to strip clubs charging a 'house fee' for nightly access to the club's stage and customers, webcam hosts would be well within their rights to start charging an hourly bandwidth fee ( if the existing 35% flat percentage was simultaneously raised by removing the existing bandwidth cost component ) for access to their video stream and customers. As with the strip clubs, this change in formula would adequately reward the most productive camgirls, would stop ( the majority of ) subsidies being diverted from top camgirls and webcam host investors to support the ( negative ) operating costs of marginal camgirls, would provide direct financial feedback for all camgirls as to whether continuing to work through that webcam host was economically viable, etc.

SarahTime
04-08-2012, 11:04 AM
Actually, under today's market conditions, other girls making nothing SUBTRACTS from the money that some girls have successfully made ... due to the inherent 'subsidies' present in today's flat 35% ( or whatever ) revenue splitting formula.

From a pure financial standpoint, just like strip clubs, no webcam host should be obligated to provide a 'free' facility ( that is actually far from free ) for marginal girls to TRY and sell themselves to the webcam host's 'finite' customer base. Every strip club owner is going check out the 'goods' that any new dancer has to offer before allowing her anywhere near the club's stage and customers. And if the club owner is able to quickly summize that the new girl doesn't 'measure up', that girl is simply going to be politely 'rejected'. With tens of thousands of girls now looking toward cam work, webcam hosts arguably have a duty to both their investors and their more productive existing camgirls to do the same ... before the marginal new camgirl is provided with a 'free' video stream ( that her paid sales revenue level can't actually cover ), before the marginal new camgirl diverts the attention of the webcam host's 'finite' customer base by offering 'digital extras' ( which makes future sales by more productive existing camgirls more difficult ) etc.

And similar to strip clubs charging a 'house fee' for nightly access to the club's stage and customers, webcam hosts would be well within their rights to start charging an hourly bandwidth fee ( if the existing 35% flat percentage was simultaneously raised by removing the existing bandwidth cost component ) for access to their video stream and customers. As with the strip clubs, this change in formula would adequately reward the most productive camgirls, would stop ( the majority of ) subsidies being diverted from top camgirls and webcam host investors to support the ( negative ) operating costs of marginal camgirls, would provide direct financial feedback for all camgirls as to whether continuing to work through that webcam host was economically viable, etc.

I don't know why they don't do this. Makes perfect sense!!! Add this change request to the petition please! ;)

LAChloe
04-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Hahaha! Roast hit the nail on the head! On this Easter Sunday, Babble-ina has risen from the dead to save us from SM!

Whatever. I love SM. Even when I hate it, I love it.

I do wish they would get rid of the 30 second freeloaders.

This slave bullshit has to stop. Do something else if you feel as though you are a slave.

Happy Easter, Babble-ina!!!!

GlamourRouge
04-08-2012, 11:44 AM
I don't know why they don't do this. Makes perfect sense!!! Add this change request to the petition please! ;)

I think they don't do it because its too confusing and too discouraging for girls who are brand new. Plus, they can't really change their system once they have it set in stone. Future cam sites may work that way though.

SarahTime
04-08-2012, 12:44 PM
I think they don't do it because its too confusing and too discouraging for girls who are brand new. Plus, they can't really change their system once they have it set in stone. Future cam sites may work that way though.

Yah it would be nearly impossible to implement something like that now. Same with many other suggestions for change. They are good ideas for new sites, but basically impossible once the site is already going strong.

bubblegumbitch
04-08-2012, 02:13 PM
i just got a message from SM today saying:

"Based on feedback received from several performers we have made improvements to the GOLD show. We hope you like them, there are more to come!"

don't tell me that they don't take suggestions, like others have said: if it makes sense business-wise and doesn't go against they're bottom line then i am sure they would love to hear feedback to make the site more functional friendly for everyone.

i do really like the improvements that they have made with the gold show feature. and NO i do not work for SM directly. i am just a performer like everyone else.

GlamourRouge
04-08-2012, 02:48 PM
i just got a message from SM today saying:

"Based on feedback received from several performers we have made improvements to the GOLD show. We hope you like them, there are more to come!"

don't tell me that they don't take suggestions, like others have said: if it makes sense business-wise and doesn't go against they're bottom line then i am sure they would love to hear feedback to make the site more functional friendly for everyone.

i do really like the improvements that they have made with the gold show feature. and NO i do not work for SM directly. i am just a performer like everyone else.

Feedback is a lot different than a petition though

ManyRoses
04-08-2012, 03:03 PM
Feedback is a lot different than a petition though

Absolutely - and I think that straight up feedback is a better way to go.

Petitions always feel very aggressive and adversarial to me - I think that one-on-one feedback often gets a more positive response. There is just something about it that would put me on the defensive, as a business owner - getting a lot of individual e-mails just feels more respectful than something that amounts to "we all got together behind your back and decided that we don't like you". I think that petitions can be useful measures for really, really important issues when all else has failed, but aren't really appropriate for small tweaks that could just be suggested via the usual channels. And there is NO point petitioning for something (like higher percentages) when we already know why we get the percentages we do, and we have to option of going to other sites where percentages are higher. That won't affect change, that will just piss people off.

I also think that the "house fee" situation is a perfect example of something that could be petitioned, but that I would really, really HATE to see!! I would much rather pay a higher percentage on a daily basis, rather than paying a daily "rental" fee, for a whole plethora of reasons. But some girls would rather have it the other way around. I would be so upset if a major condition of working on the site suddenly changed -after all, I chose this site for a reason - I like the way that it is run! So I wouldn't want to put my name to a petition for things that I am not 100% sure would benefit everyone, and I can't think of anything that falls into that category.

Maybe if we can suggest/agree on small tweaks, it would be a better idea to just have everyone that agrees e-mail support with the (polite!) suggestion, rather than go as aggressive as a petition right off the bat.

Melonie
04-09-2012, 03:26 AM
So I wouldn't want to put my name to a petition for things that I am not 100% sure would benefit everyone, and I can't think of anything that falls into that category.

Just exactly how does requiring a top earning camgirl to pay out a far higher percentage of her paid customer sales than the webcam host must actually spend in order to provide a server, and video stream bandwidth ... while part of the excess money 'extracted' from the top earning camgirl is then used to subsidize the costs of providing a server and video stream bandwidth to a marginal camgirl whose lack of paid customer sales would otherwise create a loss for the webcam host, benefit 'everyone' ? 'Socialism' never works in business ... mostly because businesses can't 'print' or borrow money indefinitely !!!

CassieHeart
04-09-2012, 06:26 AM
I would like to defiantly see a change in percentage for us performers who provide our own bandwidth and are top earners. Maybe something like LJ imposed like performer level percentages. Although it is flawed it would be a step in the rite direction. the new changes they have made are BS and irrelevant they really do nothing for us.

Fridays
04-09-2012, 06:46 AM
a lil % increase would be great!!!!!!!!!
10 sec free preview instead of 30 seconds
a friends list of some sort......$5 each. to be renewed after month..Even if its $1/friend.. Its EXTRA 30 cents , and not minus 30 cents....
Others things so its easier to upsell ......
This is how the stores do it.
You go in to buy a loaf of bread, because the advertising says its on SALE and u end up buying milk, butter, honey, tea, chicken and apples too!!.Because once you get there, all these marketing tricks are all over you..."
and you fall for it......
Its not that you cant do all the work yourself but since both parties would benefit from the end result, wouldn't it be nice to get a bit of help?

I recently heard a great thing that I will remember forever now, because it makes so much sense...
"If you can not see/hear the problems, you can not fix the problems"
Models are the eyes and ears of this biz. They see all the problems.
wouldn't it be smart to listen to the models?
thats what Im saying......

Nikki_Fox
04-09-2012, 08:01 AM
Maybe most ladies are not thrilled with the idea of a petition. Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned it as seeming hostile. Maybe a positively worded email suggestion from tons of ladies would be more effective.( Each worded individually ) Now , get tons of ladies to agree on an improvement they would like to see and push for that. Then tackle the next idea. Just a thought.

justanothercamgirl
04-09-2012, 08:16 AM
If we are now daydreaming our bucket list of wishes about Streamate improvements, I will throw in my wish that even if SM won't give us a larger % of our camshows -- that they'd at least let us keep a larger percentage of our tips.

35 cents on the dollar? Not a lot of motivation for me to hustle my ass off to make them more money. If they would give me a 50/50 split on tips alone I'd be shaking my money maker as if my life depended on it.

justanothercamgirl
04-09-2012, 08:17 AM
Maybe most ladies are not thrilled with the idea of a petition. Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned it as seeming hostile. Maybe a positively worded email suggestion from tons of ladies would be more effective.( Each worded individually ) Now , get tons of ladies to agree on an improvement they would like to see and push for that. Then tackle the next idea. Just a thought.

I have no problem emailing Streamate with improvement suggestions at the same time as other camgirls are doing it. That makes sense to me.

Melonie
04-09-2012, 08:21 AM
I will throw in my wish that even if SM won't give us a larger % of our camshows -- that they'd at least let us keep a larger percentage of our tips.

35 cents on the dollar?

How would you feel about being able to keep 70 cents on the dollar of both sales and tips, but you would also being required to pay a fixed $3-5 per hour 'hosting fee' for standard definition video, rising to $6-10 per hour 'hosting fee' for HD video ? Like a strip club 'house fee', the 'hosting fee' would apply for every hour you were signed in, regardless of the amount of paid sales you actually generate !



Not a lot of motivation for me to hustle my ass off to make them more money

That's the point ... a lot of the sales revenues generated by top earning girls do NOT actually go into generating profits for SM ( or any other webcam host ). Instead they go to make up for financial losses created by marginal camgirls whose streaming server and bandwidth costs are essentially identical to that of top performers, but who don't actually generate enough sales revenues to 'pay their own way' versus the streaming server and bandwidth costs they create for the webcam host !!!

Consider what this change would actually do ...

Top performer camgirls would be able to 'keep' a larger share of the sales revenues they generate ... serving as a strong incentive to A. stay with that webcam host, and B. work even harder to generate even more sales.

The webcam host would, at the very least, experience a lower degree of financial risk ... which could help justify future investments to improve bandwidth and server capacity

Marginal camgirls, like marginal dancers, would be forced to financially deal with their own ability ( or lack thereof ) to generate sales revenues versus the webcam host's costs involved to provide them with server capacity and a video stream. If they aren't able to generate enough paid sales revenue to cover the hourly cost they actually create and now must pay via the 'hosting fee', then they wind up with zero net earnings.

As marginal camgirls migrate to other webcam host sites that do NOT charge a 'hosting fee' in order to still earn money, whatever number of webcam host site customers exist would have fewer, but higher 'quality', camgirls on which to spend their money ! This will result in increased earnings for the top performer camgirls as well as for the webcam host. It would also improve video stream performance since the streaming server and bandwidth 'load' created by the marginal camgirls would lessen as they moved to other webcam hosts.

As marginal camgirls migrate to other webcam sites that do NOT charge a 'hosting fee', top performer camgirls working on that other webcam site will probably see some increase in the number of customers who typically patronize marginal camgirls ... i.e. marginal spending 'bargain hunters' ! This will potentially lower their earnings potential, and increase the frustration factor, for the remaining top performer camgirls - many of whom may migrate to the webcam site charging the 'hosting fee' but paying out higher percentages ( and bringing some number of 'upscale' webcam customers with them ).


As strip club owners discovered a while back, webcam hosts need to discover that adult webcam isn't an 'infinite growth' market ... or at least it isn't where effective and productive camgirls, and reasonable expectation and reasonable spending level webcam customers are concerned. Again like strip club owners have already discovered, webcam hosts need to discover that they cannot afford to invest X dollars to double the club's 'square footage' to accomodate twice as many dancers ... = to invest X dollars to double server / bandwidth capacity to support twice as many camgirls ... when the majority of those additional dancers / camgirls will generate comparatively low amounts of sales revenue, and when the majority of newly attracted club / webcam customers will be marginal spending 'bargain hunters' !



Maybe something like LJ imposed like performer level percentages

Agreed that the tiered percentage payout setup recently adopted by LJ is a 'step in the right direction' in that it reduces the amount of subsidization of marginal camgirls ( by lowering their payout percentage ) and reduces the amount of subsidy payments being collected from top performer camgirls ( by increasing their payout percentage ). But the LJ setup is flawed since it concentrates on the total number of sales revenue dollars generated per pay period as opposed to the average number of sales revenue dollars generated per hour. Thus a top performer camgirl who cannot devote a 'full time' effort to camming on LJ receives a low percentage payout even though her average sales revenue generation versus actual costs of operation ratio is very high. On the flip side, marginal camgirls who can work a huge number of hours per pay period are still rewarded ( despite the fact that the very high bandwidth costs associated with providing their 'free' video stream for all of those hours isn't being recouped from their actual total paid sales during those hours ).

The 'bandwidth fee' approach would realistically reward those camgirls with high average sales revenue generation versus actual costs of operation ratios, and more realistically assess the operating costs created by every camgirl, regardless of the total number of hours spent on cam. For some camgirls this would mean increased earnings. For other camgirls it would mean the end of their marginal camming career as a result of running up, say, a MINUS $100 balance in their holding account due to hourly 'hosting fees' exceeding average hourly sales revenue generation ... at which point the webcam host could offer the option of having the marginal camgirl pay the $100 out of her own pocket to eliminate her 'debt' to the webcam host thus keeping her account active, or having her account permanently deleted.

justanothercamgirl
04-09-2012, 08:24 AM
Models are the eyes and ears of this biz. They see all the problems.
wouldn't it be smart to listen to the models?
thats what Im saying......

They would be smart to listen to them, but the sad fact is that in general management never does. They are too far from the 'frontline' to truly understand the issues at hand and to them it is just all about their 'bottomline'.

This isn't just a camsite thing. I can think of a few technology companies right now that are currently digging their own grave because they refuse to listen to their own employees and their own customers.

justanothercamgirl
04-09-2012, 08:27 AM
How would you feel about being able to keep 75 cents on the dollar, but also being required to pay a fixed $5 per hour 'hosting fee' ( regardless of whether or not you actually converted any paid sales ) ?

Would I personally trade for that? Hell yeah. But that is because I am confident in my ability to make tips.

Do I think most girls would? Probably not. My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it to them and I could understand their position.

Melonie
04-09-2012, 09:43 AM
Do I think most girls would? Probably not. My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it to them and I could understand their position.

All I can do is take a couple of additional steps toward comparing strip clubs to webcam hosts. Strip clubs that charge a high 'house fee' indeed drive a large number of marginal dancers away. But the dancers who remain, and who willingly pay the 'house fee', are mostly all 'top performers'. This in turn tends to attract an 'upscale' clientele, who spends a much higher than average amount in the club, thus both the club and the 'top performer' dancers bank big time. The archtype examples of such strip clubs are Penthouse, Scores etc.

Often, the marginal dancers who cannot earn a reasonable 'profit' net of 'house fees' at these upscale clubs wind up migrating to other clubs that do not charge a high 'house fee'. But the lower 'quality' offerings at such clubs drives away their 'upscale' clientele. So the marginal dancers often wind up having to sell 'underpriced' services to marginal spending 'bargain hunter' customers. This in turn tends to drive out any remaining 'top performer' dancers ... who in turn migrate to the upscale club despite the high 'house fee'.

Not every dancer or camgirl can be a 'top performer'. Part of that equation involves good chromosomes, or a good plastic surgeon, or a good 'brain', or a good personality, or a good attitude. In the strip club world, there is no implied duty for 'top performer' dancers to routinely sacrifice a large part of their actual earnings in order to financially subsidize marginal dancer earnings. But this is PRECISELY what is happening with the flat percentage payout webcam host business model.

It was one thing for 'top performer' camgirls to put up with this financial subsidy arrangement when the economy was booming and when the number of girls seeking to try their luck at camming was somewhat limited. It is something else again for 'top performer' camgirls to continue to put up with this financial subsidy arrangement when a poor economy is both negatively affecting webcam customer spending levels, PLUS incentivizing an ever growing number of new marginal camgirls to try their hand at the business, but requiring additional financial subsidies.

SarahTime
04-09-2012, 02:31 PM
I'm wondering if most models just don't understand the cost of running a webcam site such as Streamate. Bandwidth isn't free, it costs a lot of money to be able to support all those video streams simultaneously. Right now while typing this, there are 1,899 models currently online streaming. That is A LOT of bandwidth right there. Streamate has to pay out the ass to be able to support 1,899 streams successfully. A model on page 15 streaming away for 12 hours a day is costing Streamate MORE money that the model on page 1 in the 1st spot is. Yet, the model on page 15 probably is literally making zero dollars, while the model in the 1st spot could be making $100+ per hour she is online.

Most people see that Streamate takes 65% and think "damn Streamate is making SO MUCH MONEY off of me!!!" Sure, they are making a pretty penny for the HUGE successful business they created, and they should be, but it's probably not as high as you think. If you generate $100 in sales, they did not just pocket $65 as profit. At end end of the day, I would venture to guess that Streamate likely pockets MAYBE half of that.

ManyRoses
04-09-2012, 03:07 PM
Just exactly how does requiring a top earning camgirl to pay out a far higher percentage of her paid customer sales than the webcam host must actually spend in order to provide a server, and video stream bandwidth ... while part of the excess money 'extracted' from the top earning camgirl is then used to subsidize the costs of providing a server and video stream bandwidth to a marginal camgirl whose lack of paid customer sales would otherwise create a loss for the webcam host, benefit 'everyone' ? 'Socialism' never works in business ... mostly because businesses can't 'print' or borrow money indefinitely !!!

Ok, maybe I just haven't had enough coffee this morning, maybe its because I am terrible with numbers, but I'm not understanding what you are saying here?

I think (correct me if I am wrong) that what you are saying is that top girls make more than they cost, and "bottom" (for lack of a better word) girls cost more than they make, and the current percentages try to balance that out - which is not "fair" to the top cam girls? (Correct me if I am wrong, of course!)

If there was a way to tier earnings, so that the more you make, the higher the percentage you get, I would be all for it. Absolutely, 100%, I would like to make more as I earn more. However, this would only "benefit everyone" if the highest cut taken stayed at 65%, otherwise, the lowest earning girls would be taking home less than 35%, and I just think that that is ridiculous - we all have to start out somewhere, and learn somewhere - by all means, give those that are valuable to the company more, but when the percentages are so LOW to start with, I wouldn't want them to be dropped. I would also be concerned about who decided what the tiers are - again, I wouldn't want to suddenly start earning LESS because the person creating the tiers is basing it off some ridiculous number, such as"everyone should be earning $100 per hour in order to make 35%".

As for the concept of a "house fee" all I can say is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! One of the reasons that I was so happy to leave the strip clubs was to get AWAY from that infernal house fee. As it stands now, I get online happily and often because I have nothing to lose. Although it was rare, there were times at the club where I would come in, and then get a sudden bout of food poisoning, or a migrane, and leave, but be forced to pay $80 because I walked in the damn door. I don't want to log in for two minutes, then have to log out for physical reasons, technical issues, a sudden phone call to come cover the day job, or any number of other things, and find that it cost me $10. Yes, its only $10, but that is $10 that I want! I also found that the house fee could occasionally get me into a spiral of non-earning desparation - a slow start would throw me into a panic about leaving "in the hole", and that panic would throw off my game (so that I did leave in the hole, or near enough) and then that fear would carry over, and I would end up having an awful week. I HATE housefees. Housefees are the bane of my existence. I would never work in a tattoo shop that charged for the chair by the day, rather than taking a percentage of earnings, and I sought out clubs that ran this way too. I am so much happier paying a higher cut, and knowing that I can never lose money.

Busygirl
04-09-2012, 03:24 PM
I don't think it's our place to worry about the sites suffering the bandwidth costs, and other costs etc. because if those costs would really hurt them, they wouldn't accept an endless number of online performers. And if the cost of bandwidth is going to hurt them eventually, my guess, they would rather cut our percentage then get rid of performers. This is a greedy business. everyone should watch out for themselves.

Kayden
04-09-2012, 03:29 PM
All I can think of: "From Melonie's lips into God's ear!" (regarding the "75% payout in return for say $10/hr 'house fee'")

It would be one long-ass post to even try to come close describing all the ways this would be a win-win situation for the (professional) camgirl as well as the customer...

I think discussing this will be somewhat "taboo" in CC because it requires admitting, that, there in fact, is such a thing as "marginal camgirls" and admitting this would be "mean" towards them (nevermind the fact that in many cases it's probably dudes operating those countless sockpuppet accounts that in a matter of days drop from 4 stars to 1-1.5 stars, yes, back when I used to check my placement I had this pastime "have they dropped another star? are they down to one?" lol)

OK, this is probably starting to sound like one of those whiny posts about how evil those underselling, masturbating-in-freechat, pre-recorded video camgirls are which everyone loves to hate but I have been occasionally thinking what is the future of camming and honestly the only scenario I could think of up until now was that MadisonQT is the face of the future of camming. Period. But there is an alternative way, after all, the "house fee" model! Instead of a lowest common denominator "oh bitch you can do that and get away with it!? Oh then I'll do it too!" situation where everything spirals down the shitter there is an alterantive scenario where you actually get rewarded for excellence.

This is a really positive realization! I just felt like sharing that.

Busygirl
04-09-2012, 03:36 PM
If i end up paying a house fee i probably quit working for the sites and set up my own cam.

And since our percentage is 35 percent in general, and they are selling our content without giving royalties to us, you can be damn sure that the "house fee" is already accounted for plentifully.

This business is changing so fast, i don't think we can count on the security that it's going to be profitable, aka your members will pay the same way tomorrow, then you can eat up all your house fees or get out.

I don't want to offend anyone, but just being on the first page, doesn't mean you are the creme of the crop. (i,m on there too and wouldn't hold my nose so high with my earnings and feeling uber secure with my position)There are so many members, because there are so many girls on the site. They didn't come just for me and you.

lolabunny
04-09-2012, 04:57 PM
Compared to many other sites, SM is about as good as it gets...Nothing in this world is perfect okay lol...there are always gonna be things u dislike about ur job but that's life! like it or not, it will never be that damn easy....Compared to all these damn sites doing public cum shows and chargebacks, I think SM has been very generous to us. There are tons and tons of models on that site and what you won't do (or stand for), someone else will lol I say just rock out and be happy because it could be a whole lot worse.

Charlotteslut
04-09-2012, 06:01 PM
Yeah, SM is the only cam site that worked for me. I trust it a lot more than other sites and the interface is nice and simple.

I would like to see something like increased percentage for higher earners. For example, if you are pulling in 200/day you get bumped up to 45% etc. But of course, I have no control over that.

Man, I wished I owned SM. How sweet would that be. *needs time machine*

SweetPinkCupcake
04-09-2012, 06:53 PM
Anyone that wants a higher percetage from Streamate, go open your own cam site and see how much money it takes.:D Really. The beauty of being on Streamate for the 35% that everyone complains about is we do NOT HAVE TO ADVERTISE.
I have to spend hours a week promoting my Niteflirt, Camwealth, and other indy accounts to get A FOURTH of the traffic I get from Streamate. Do you dvknow what else is awesome about them, tho? If I choose to advertise Streamate also-- I get 75%!!!!! With NO CHARGEBACKS. That is MORE than I am getting from higher percentage sites like Adultwork, NF, and indy!

I do love the way Melonie thinks, :), but cmon girls, we cannot have our cake and eat it, too!

ManyRoses
04-09-2012, 06:57 PM
Excellent point SweetPink! I think I've mentioned elsewhere - I left my NF line open for about four months. 24/7. I got one call at the end of that. Whereas the first time that I logged on SM, I made money. There were customers - immediately. I'd rather take 35% of something than 70% of nothing, thanks.

anonymous camgirl
04-09-2012, 07:19 PM
Ok this is directed toward YOU!!...lmfao... I have been on NF since 2003 back then when I first started same as you describe. I think i left my phone on 24/7 for 6 months even longer.. and I read way earlier that you also said your listings are pretty generic.. mine to!! But NOW i get phone calls all day and nite all hours of the day.. I still stay on 24/7 because they can buy my id's and videos.. sometimes I make more money off that .. than even taking the calls. Now that I don't get penalized for not answering the phone anymore... I take calls whenever I feel like it..LOL .. but keep trying it!! You will get more longer you on there.... I hope you are charging for your id's?? I charge 1.25 for each one....they always pay for them to.. a few don't but they are cheap .. but in the long run it costs them more with .. what ?? what was that?? whats your yahoo nick again.. Ok now spell that for me one more time.. it eats up 1 or 2mins of their phone time..LOL.. i am like god you are dumb.. i charge 1.25 for my id and you wasted 6 bucks cuz you didn't want to pay 1.25...lol



Excellent point SweetPink! I think I've mentioned elsewhere - I left my NF line open for about four months. 24/7. I got one call at the end of that. Whereas the first time that I logged on SM, I made money. There were customers - immediately. I'd rather take 35% of something than 70% of nothing, thanks.

GlamourRouge
04-09-2012, 07:30 PM
I don't want to offend anyone, but just being on the first page, doesn't mean you are the creme of the crop.

It kind of does though because its based on time spent in private and how much money you make. The higher, the higher your placement.

GlamourRouge
04-09-2012, 07:33 PM
Anyone that wants a higher percetage from Streamate, go open your own cam site and see how much money it takes.:D Really. The beauty of being on Streamate for the 35% that everyone complains about is we do NOT HAVE TO ADVERTISE.
I have to spend hours a week promoting my Niteflirt, Camwealth, and other indy accounts to get A FOURTH of the traffic I get from Streamate. Do you dvknow what else is awesome about them, tho? If I choose to advertise Streamate also-- I get 75%!!!!! With NO CHARGEBACKS. That is MORE than I am getting from higher percentage sites like Adultwork, NF, and indy!

I do love the way Melonie thinks, :), but cmon girls, we cannot have our cake and eat it, too!

SERIOUSLY! Ummm yeah if you open your own cam site, you'll probably make LESS than a 35% profit after advertising ($$$ + time), chargebacks (big reason why girls quit their paysites), bandwidth/streaming costs, and the money it takes for initial start up.

The fact that girls want to complain that they are only getting paid 35% with no chargebacks when there is an option to get paid 75% with a little work & business sense, is ridiculous. If you want to be lazy or you don't like their model, don't work for them. Its their site, not yours.

ManyRoses
04-09-2012, 07:34 PM
Ok this is directed toward YOU!!...lmfao... I have been on NF since 2003 back then when I first started same as you describe. I think i left my phone on 24/7 for 6 months even longer.. and I read way earlier that you also said your listings are pretty generic.. mine to!! But NOW i get phone calls all day and nite all hours of the day.. I still stay on 24/7 because they can buy my id's and videos.. sometimes I make more money off that .. than even taking the calls. Now that I don't get penalized for not answering the phone anymore... I take calls whenever I feel like it..LOL .. but keep trying it!! You will get more longer you on there.... I hope you are charging for your id's?? I charge 1.25 for each one....they always pay for them to.. a few don't but they are cheap .. but in the long run it costs them more with .. what ?? what was that?? whats your yahoo nick again.. Ok now spell that for me one more time.. it eats up 1 or 2mins of their phone time..LOL.. i am like god you are dumb.. i charge 1.25 for my id and you wasted 6 bucks cuz you didn't want to pay 1.25...lol

Well, seeing as this one was for ME! Lol!

Glad it worked out for you!

I don't sell videos there - I prefer c4s or direct sale, and I don't do any yahoo or other messaging, so there is no id to sell. For me, NF was just for calls, so that I could be making money when I was getting ready to work, making dinner - other times where I can't be live on cam.

I decided that NF was just not the site for me, and am happy with that decision, but I'm glad that it worked out for you in the end.

anonymous camgirl
04-09-2012, 07:35 PM
Yea that's why it's good to log off when you go to the kitchen or something?? because I think like you said it's based on hours in free chat vs private chat.. I used to leave it on ALL The time before I knew that.... Actually? i think my placement picked up alot when i stopped leaving it up constantly and never logging off.

ManyRoses
04-09-2012, 07:36 PM
It kind of does though because its based on time spent in private and how much money you make. The higher, the higher your placement.

Wooohooo! I'm the creme of the crop! (Well, pretty much - damn those two weeks that dropped me to page 2 for a few days!!)

GR - I fucking love you! ;D

ManyRoses
04-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Yea that's why it's good to log off when you go to the kitchen or something?? because I think like you said it's based on hours in free chat vs private chat.. I used to leave it on ALL The time before I knew that.... Actually? i think my placement picked up alot when i stopped leaving it up constantly and never logging off.

For cams? Absolutely! Sm actually in their FAQ's mentions that a) you should be physically present whenever you are logged in and b) that if you do not spend a certain percentage of time in paid chat, then your account will be closed. Its only 3% of the time, but it DOES mean that you can't just leave it running constantly without you there. I wonder if anyone ever had their account closed because they were spending less than 3% of their time in paid....

Melonie
04-09-2012, 11:43 PM
I'm wondering if most models just don't understand the cost of running a webcam site such as Streamate. Bandwidth isn't free, it costs a lot of money to be able to support all those video streams simultaneously.

Indeed !!! Before the Section 2257 law became such a risk factor for indy webcam producers, I used to operate my own website and streaming video server. Although a huge setup like SM could undoubtedly achieve better pricing based on volume, where my indy website and streaming video server were concerned the ( pre-HD ) bandwidth and web hosting costs regularly ate up 25% of my gross revenues. Online adult credit card processing fees, chargebacks etc. regularly ate up another 15%. And I was able to avoid having to shell out an additional 10-20% for paid promotion / placement, since I was fortunate enough to have something of an established fan base due to previous magazine / video / feature work. So good luck with trying to operate an indy webcam site at a profit these days ... and especially so if you don't already have an established 'customer base' !!!



And since our percentage is 35 percent in general, and they are selling our content without giving royalties to us, you can be damn sure that the "house fee" is already accounted for plentifully.

If you're a 'top performer', this is true in spades. However, where marginal camgirls are concerned, it's arguably not true at all ! Again, the unfortunate fact is that the costs involved to provide web hosting and video stream bandwidth for a 'top performer' and a marginal camgirl are essentially identical. However, the revenues generated by the 'top performers' far exceed their costs of operation, whereas the marginal camgirls may not. Additionally, content sold by SM to other websites is far more lucrative if it consists of 'top performer' images and clips !!! Nope, the truth is that 'top performers' are getting the financial shaft while marginal camgirls are getting a 'free ride' at the expense of the 'top performers'.



However, this would only "benefit everyone" if the highest cut taken stayed at 65%, otherwise, the lowest earning girls would be taking home less than 35%, and I just think that that is ridiculous - we all have to start out somewhere, and learn somewhere - by all means, give those that are valuable to the company more, but when the percentages are so LOW to start with, I wouldn't want them to be dropped.

Well, the strip club equivalent argument you are making is that Penthouse, Scores or other upscale strip clubs should allow any new dancer who wants to try working there an opportunity ... regardless of how out of shape, overweight or otherwise unappealing they might be. PLUS if the marginal new dancer finds herself unable to attract enough paid club customer spending to exceed the cost of her 'house fee', that the club should not only waive the house fee ( = reduced profit margin for the club ) but also 'give' the marginal dancer some of the money earned by 'top performing' dancers who are also working that night to 'compensate' the marginal dancer for the time she spent in the club !!!

We clearly disagree on the subject of whether or not webcam hosts have a 'duty' to provide webcam hosting and video stream bandwidth to any girl who signs up ... regardless of the girl's ability to generate sufficient revenues to 'pay her own way'. We also clearly disagree on the subject of whether or not marginal camgirls have a 'right' to be paid 'something' in exchange for the time they spend logged in, regardless of whether or not the marginal camgirl has actually produced sales revenues in excess of the costs she has created.



I have been occasionally thinking what is the future of camming and honestly the only scenario I could think of up until now was that MadisonQT is the face of the future of camming. Period. But there is an alternative way, after all, the "house fee" model! Instead of a lowest common denominator "oh bitch you can do that and get away with it!? Oh then I'll do it too!" situation where everything spirals down the shitter there is an alterantive scenario where you actually get rewarded for excellence.

Again reverting to the strip club analogy, that industry wound up with a small number of upscale clubs where a relatively small number of 'top performers', as well as the upscale clubowners, were able to earn decent money by appealing to an upscale clientele. That industry also wound up with a larger number of other clubs that operate with very few 'top performers' but a large number of marginal dancers that are appealing to marginal spending 'bargain hunter' clientele. In the absence of condoning / engaging in illegal activities, these other clubs are struggling financially and the marginal dancers working in them are earning just enough money to get by.

If one webcam host doesn't make the 'leap' toward an upscale business model soon, then the future of camming in general is likely to be the decline to the lowest common denominator that you anticipate !!!