PDA

View Full Version : seriously zimmerman?



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4

bem401
04-17-2012, 05:51 PM
You can say that about anybody with a high profile who is involved, or reporting on the case. There’s Al and Jesse on the left, Sean Hannity and Bill O’ Reilly on the right.

First of all, O'Reilly is no conservative and secondly, they talk strictly on their cable/radio shows. They don't show up at the scenes of the "crimes" and exhort people of their race to get fired up at some incident supposedly committed by another race. The only people who ever, repeat ever, mention race are people like Jackson and Sharpton whose livelihoods depend on playing race cards whenever and wherever possible. The conservative position on this is that justice should be allowed to run its course and idiots like Jackson, Sharpton, and POTUS should keep their mouths shut and let that happen.

mtn_031
04-17-2012, 06:14 PM
The conservative position on this is that justice should be allowed to run its course

Yes, and for the justice system to run its course an arrest was needed. Al Sharpton brought attention to the case and an arrest was made.Also, Trayvon Martin's family Lawyer called Al Sharpton and said they needed his help. He didn't just "show up".

bem401
04-17-2012, 06:28 PM
Yes, and for the justice system to run its course an arrest was needed. Al Sharpton brought attention to the case and an arrest was made.Also, Trayvon Martin's family Lawyer called Al Sharpton and said they needed his help. He didn't just "show up".


What makes you an expert in determining that an arrest was necessary? Listening to Not-So-Sharpton? The prosecuting attorney for Sanford FL showed up that night and determined there to be insufficient probable cause to file charges. It wasn't presented to a grand jury because an indictment was doubtful. The very liberal Alan Dershowitz has viewed the available evidence and the charges and says the case doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being successfully prosecuted. This is being done because the politicians in FL want to provide themselves cover till after the election.

mtn_031
04-17-2012, 07:13 PM
This is being done because the politicians in FL want to provide themselves cover till after the election.
Maybe.
Or maybe the initial prosecuting attorney made a mistake by not presenting the case to the grand jury because an "indictment was doubtul".

bem401
04-17-2012, 07:25 PM
Maybe.
Or maybe the initial prosecuting attorney made a mistake by not presenting the case to the grand jury because an "indictment was doubtul".

The Special Prosecutor appointed by either the Governor or the AG also decided against a grand jury, opting instead for charging him directly. I'll defer to Alan Dershowitz regarding case quality and remind you not to forget that the primary objective of any politician in office is to do whatever is necessary to get re-elected.

mtn_031
04-17-2012, 07:47 PM
The Special Prosecutor appointed by either the Governor or the AG also decided against a grand jury, opting instead for charging him directly.
My point was that if the initial prosecuting attorney had brought the case to the grand jury and the grand jury had failed to indict, none of this would have happened.
That's what I meant when I said the initial prosecuting attorney might have made a mistake.

bem401
04-17-2012, 07:54 PM
My point was that if the initial prosecuting attorney had brought the case to the grand jury and the grand jury had failed to indict, none of this would have happened.
That's what I meant when I said the initial prosecuting attorney might have made a mistake.

I disagree. Sharpton and Jackson still would have involved themselves and played their race cards, albeit after the failed grand jury. Facts have never mattered to them. ...Remember Tawana Brawley and the Duke lacrosse rape case? Both these scumbags make very nice livings exploiting such situations,

mtn_031
04-17-2012, 08:02 PM
I disagree. Sharpton and Jackson still would have involved themselves and played their race cards, albeit after the failed grand jury

Maybe, but not that many people would have supported them, I know I wouldn't.

Dirty Ernie
04-17-2012, 09:46 PM
There are only 2 people who truly know what happened that night. And one of them is dead by the hand of the other.

Despite what anyone may think of Sharpton or Jackson, they may have shined a light on a bigger issue. The passage of an extremely vague, poorly written gun law as to put the prosecutor in a position to doubt he could get a conviction in a case where an armed man can follow any random unarmed citizen and in any ensuing confrontation be able to kill that person without fear of prosecution. The victim was probably the person most likely entitled to Stand their Ground, but the misapplication of this law very early in this case made it ripe for the media circus we now see.

There has been a concerted effort to pass these types of laws, along with laws restricting abortion, in a large number of Republican held State Legislatures (although this law did have bipartisan support in Fla). Written by lobbyists to the benefit of special interests. Happens on both sides, unfortunately.

Nina_
04-17-2012, 10:07 PM
If the dead boy wasn't a minority and the shooter portrayed as white would you be just as passionate about this? How do you know that he was there only for skittles and iced tea, could you read his mind or were you there? You do know that he jumped a fence into a gated comunity, ......right? Seems weird to jump 2 fences just to save a few steps to buy skittles and iced tea, doesn't it?

What gives you the idea that he hopped two fences? Is this accurate? Regardless, he was in the neighborhood that he was currently RESIDING.


Black get killed by blacks every day, why aren't you so outraged about them?
When a black gets killed by a black, or a white gets killed by a white, or what have you, they are arrested and charged by it. Until very recently, Zimmerman was free of all charges although he murdered an un-armed teen. That's why people were so outraged about it. It's not rocket science.



He got out of his car and followed him because he was a overzealous neighborhood watch guy. If you were not aware a NBC producer was fired for editing the transcripts to better fit the racist execution story they were portraying this as.
Regarldess of the fact that the NBC calls were altered, the facts remain that Zimmerman called Trayvon a "fucking coon," so you can't prove his actions weren't race-motivated. Prior to the incident, he had sent out a neighborhood email telling neighbors to keep an eye out for "suspicious looking black males" in the neighborhood. He also had a history of dialing 911 to report "suspicious looking black males," so how can you say his decision to get out of his car wasn't racially motivated? If you were driving in your car and saw someone walking in a hoodie, would YOU get out and confront them? Zimmerman wasn't an elected authority figure, he was a self-elected watchman volunteer. He stalked Trayvon after spotting him, followed, and pursued him. Since when can someone claim self defense when they were the agressor? Trayvon got shot while unarmed and trying to walk home... I'd say he was the one needing protection, not the pursuer who was armed with a semi-automatic weapon. Make sense?




The people who know the most real facts origionally decided not to prosecute. No matter how much of the facts you know, don't know, or choose to ignore, you don't know what was in either of their minds or all of what really happened and why.
The people who initially decided to release Zimmerman were incorrect in doing so, which is EXACTLY why charges have been pressed on him after such a pulic outcry. When someone is followed by another person and then killed by that person, it is typically murder and should result in an arrest. The police in this case did not follow procedure. They should've tested Zimmerman for alcohol and drug intoxication but they didn't. They didn't even care enough about the victim to know that he did, in fact, live in the neighborhood until the day after he was killed, although he was only 70 feet from his father's home. These same police have a history of racial injustice that you obviously don't know about.

If this seems fair to you, you are ignoring the facts.

Nina_
04-17-2012, 10:15 PM
First of all, O'Reilly is no conservative

LOL. And neither is FOX, right?

eagle2
04-17-2012, 11:01 PM
If the dead boy wasn't a minority and the shooter portrayed as white would you be just as passionate about this?

Yes



How do you know that he was there only for skittles and iced tea, could you read his mind or were you there?


Because that's what was found on him after he was shot.



You do know that he jumped a fence into a gated comunity, ......right? Seems weird to jump 2 fences just to save a few steps to buy skittles and iced tea, doesn't it? Black get killed by blacks every day, why aren't you so outraged about them?


Who said he jumped a fence? Please provide references.

The issue isn't just that an African-American teenager was killed. The issue is that his killer was released without any charges being brought against him. As Nina said, it's not rocket science.




He got out of his car and followed him because he was a overzealous neighborhood watch guy. If you were not aware a NBC producer was fired for editing the transcripts to better fit the racist execution story they were portraying this as.


I don't even think you have the slightest understanding of what the issue is. The main issue is Trayvon Martin went to the convenience store and ended up getting killed. What is so difficult to understand about this? Even if an NBC producer edited transcripts, it doesn't change the fact that Trayvon Martin was unjustly killed. Being an overzealous neighborhood watch guy, does not excuse what happened.



The people who know the most real facts origionally decided not to prosecute. No matter how much of the facts you know, don't know, or choose to ignore, you don't know what was in either of their minds or all of what really happened and why.

How do you know who "knows the most real facts"? Because the DA chose not to prosecute doesn't mean he was right. It doesn't matter what was in either of their minds. What matters is Trayvon Martin was killed, and it would not have happened if Zimmerman had acted appropriately. He should never have left his vehicle. He is NOT a police officer. Regardless of what happened in any type of altercation, if Zimmerman didn't leave his vehicle to follow Martin, this would never have happened.

bem401
04-18-2012, 03:37 AM
LOL. And neither is FOX, right?

O'Reilly is no conservative . Some of FOX is and some of it isn't. The news there is skewed much less than it is at MSNBC, essentially the propaganda arm of the Obama administration. In any event, I hardly watch either channel.

Other than that you appear to just being easily manipulated by the left wing media here. Trayvon was not the 10 year old boy flashed across the screen. He was 17 years old, 6'2" and dressed suspiciously and intimidatingly in a neighborhood in which he was only visiting. Zimmerman only referred to him as African-American when asked and my understanding is he called the kid a "goon". Even if he called him the other, that doesn't mean his actions were racially motivated.....my understanding is he was returning to his vehicle when instructed and it was there that Trayvon confronted and began assaulting him.

The bottom line is you are accusing the other poster of jumping to conclusions while doing the same thing yourself. If Zimmerman is guilty, he should be convicted. If he's innocent, he should be acquitted. But neither you, ChgoJoe, nor I have enough knowledge to make that call at this stage of the game, but left wing lawyer Alan Dershowitz says the case as presented is a joke.

Nina_
04-18-2012, 10:59 AM
O'Reilly is no conservative . Some of FOX is and some of it isn't. The news there is skewed much less than it is at MSNBC, essentially the propaganda arm of the Obama administration. In any event, I hardly watch either channel.
O'Reilly is conservative, regardless of whether you (or he) denies it; FOX news is extremely conservative and has been extremely right-winged and biased throughout the whole case. You haven't been following media coverage of it if you do not understand that.


Other than that you appear to just being easily manipulated by the left wing media here.
You can stop right there; I'll I've done is state facts.


Trayvon was not the 10 year old boy flashed across the screen. He was 17 years old, 6'2" and dressed suspiciously and intimidatingly in a neighborhood in which he was only visiting. Zimmerman only referred to him as African-American when asked and my understanding is he called the kid a "goon". Even if he called him the other, that doesn't mean his actions were racially motivated.....my understanding is he was returning to his vehicle when instructed and it was there that Trayvon confronted and began assaulting him.
Your understanding is incorrect. Zimmerman claims he was walking to his car when Trayvon attacked him to help his self-defense claim (which is crumbling by the way). However, Travyon was shot and killed just 70 feet from his house and the "physical altercation" took place near/in between neighbors' houses, on grass. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman was walking to his car, why did the altercation happen nowhere near his car? There is absolutely NO evidence to substantiate Zimmerman's claim that he was walking to his car. Until evidences surfaces to support this claim, it is hear-say.

Why would he call Trayvon a goon? LOL. I urge you to listen to the 911 audio where you can legibly hear him say "coon."

How on earth was Trayvon dressed suspiciously? Since when is it so suspicious to wear a hoodie that it's OK for someone to call the police on you for it? Trayvon was residing in the neighborhood - he was staying at the house with his dad. He DID belong there.


The bottom line is you are accusing the other poster of jumping to conclusions while doing the same thing yourself. If Zimmerman is guilty, he should be convicted. If he's innocent, he should be acquitted. But neither you, ChgoJoe, nor I have enough knowledge to make that call at this stage of the game, but left wing lawyer Alan Dershowitz says the case as presented is a joke.
I am not convicting Zimmerman. I am simply saying he should be convicted. I don't have the authority to convict him myself, I am just stating my opinion that it is extremely unjust that there wasn't an immediate arrest. What you seem to not be able to grasp is that whether or not Zimmerman's intentions were racially-driven, that still doesn't negate the fact that he PERSUED an unarmed person who was just trying to go home, and killed him. That is murder.

I'm also wondering why you're ignoring the fact that the forensic voice analysts have concluded that is was certainly not Zimmerman crying for help, meaning it was Trayvon. This completely ruins Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, because 1) Zimmerman claimed that it was HIM crying for help, which it has been established that that is a lie, and 2) since we now know that it was Trayvon and not Zimmerman begging for their life right before the gunshot, we can logically infer that Zimmerman was in a position of power and not needing self-defense; Trayvon was the one begging for his life. Zimmerman was not defending himself, he was murdering an innocent boy.

You also ignore the fact that the Sanford police have a history of racial injustices. Perhaps you should look into it.

Kellydancer
04-18-2012, 12:23 PM
I disagree. Sharpton and Jackson still would have involved themselves and played their race cards, albeit after the failed grand jury. Facts have never mattered to them. ...Remember Tawana Brawley and the Duke lacrosse rape case? Both these scumbags make very nice livings exploiting such situations,

I'm not sure if you heard of this case but there was a situation at a Decatur school where a group of black students started a fight, were expelled then Jackson and Sharpton played the race card. These kids should have been expelled but these race baiters made it worse. I highly doubt if it was white kids it would have gotten the attention.

Jesse Jackson Jr is just like his dad. He's using race to get what he wants in this state, including destroying where I live to take control. He's been trying to put an airport not far from where I live (rural area)and because people out here oppose it he's calling them racists. Yep, people wanting to keep farmlands are racist (sarcasm). Then there's another race baiter named James Meeks who causes trouble (and he and his bitch "friend")and caused several people, including me to lose our jobs.

So yeah anyone who thinks the race baiting doesn't exist are wrong and they use any tragedy to further their agenda. The ironic thing is almost every African American person I know, including Democrats can see through their agenda and hate them as much as I do, even more.

Kellydancer
04-18-2012, 12:29 PM
O'Reilly is conservative, regardless of whether you (or he) denies it; FOX news is extremely conservative and has been extremely right-winged and biased throughout the whole case. You haven't been following media coverage of it if you do not understand that.


You can stop right there; I'll I've done is state facts.

Your understanding is incorrect. Zimmerman claims he was walking to his car when Trayvon attacked him to help his self-defense claim (which is crumbling by the way). However, Travyon was shot and killed just 70 feet from his house and the "physical altercation" took place near/in between neighbors' houses, on grass. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman was walking to his car, why did the altercation happen nowhere near his car? There is absolutely NO evidence to substantiate Zimmerman's claim that he was walking to his car. Until evidences surfaces to support this claim, it is hear-say.

Why would he call Trayvon a goon? LOL. I urge you to listen to the 911 audio where you can legibly hear him say "coon."

How on earth was Trayvon dressed suspiciously? Since when is it so suspicious to wear a hoodie that it's OK for someone to call the police on you for it? Trayvon was residing in the neighborhood - he was staying at the house with his dad. He DID belong there.


I am not convicting Zimmerman. I am simply saying he should be convicted. I don't have the authority to convict him myself, I am just stating my opinion that it is extremely unjust that there wasn't an immediate arrest. What you seem to not be able to grasp is that whether or not Zimmerman's intentions were racially-driven, that still doesn't negate the fact that he PERSUED an unarmed person who was just trying to go home, and killed him. That is murder.

I'm also wondering why you're ignoring the fact that the forensic voice analysts have concluded that is was certainly not Zimmerman crying for help, meaning it was Trayvon. This completely ruins Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, because 1) Zimmerman claimed that it was HIM crying for help, which it has been established that that is a lie, and 2) since we now know that it was Trayvon and not Zimmerman begging for their life right before the gunshot, we can logically infer that Zimmerman was in a position of power and not needing self-defense; Trayvon was the one begging for his life. Zimmerman was not defending himself, he was murdering an innocent boy.

You also ignore the fact that the Sanford police have a history of racial injustices. Perhaps you should look into it.

Did he call him a goon or a coon? A coon is a racist slang but I haven't hear people use that one in years. Now if he called him a goon maybe he was acting like one (and goon isn't racist as far as I know). However if he did call names (and I haven't heard the tape)what about the bitch from the New Black Panther Party calling white people names? I am white and I don't appreciate being called racist names anymore than anyone else.

If Zimmerman is guilty I hope he's convicted. However I still don't think it's a racist attack, I think that was made up by the media to add fire to the flames.

Raider
04-18-2012, 01:03 PM
When does following someone turn into pursuing? Comments like that and using phrases like that are an attempt to paint a picture of the young MAN running and fleeing for his life in fright and Zimmerman running after him.

Why didn't the skirmish take place next to the car? If you are FOLLOWING someone...and lose them or decide you shouldn't anymore and stop...you turn and start to walk to your vehicle. Anything from that point on....is when Zimmerman is returning to his car. If you are at the club....returning home yet nowhere near home you are still headed home, right?

The crying for help....experts stated it was something like 48% likely it was not Zimmerman. About as definitive as the young Man's mom stating it was her child. No study definatley states it wasn't Zimmerman...or that it was Martin.

Martin's girlfriend stated she heard on the cell phone...Martin confronting Zimmerman saying ''Why were following me?'' So, tell me who does that sound like initiated actual contact and the confrontation between the two??

History of racial injustices? The police wanted to charge Zimmerman.....attorney general said not enough evidence.

edit....and part of the problem is all the wrong and inaccurate information that is being presented by both ''sides''. Which could also include points I have made.

bem401
04-18-2012, 03:10 PM
O'Reilly is conservative, regardless of whether you (or he) denies it; FOX news is extremely conservative and has been extremely right-winged and biased throughout the whole case. You haven't been following media coverage of it if you do not understand that.


You can stop right there; I'll I've done is state facts.


Your understanding is incorrect. Zimmerman claims he was walking to his car when Trayvon attacked him to help his self-defense claim (which is crumbling by the way). However, Travyon was shot and killed just 70 feet from his house and the "physical altercation" took place near/in between neighbors' houses, on grass. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman was walking to his car, why did the altercation happen nowhere near his car? There is absolutely NO evidence to substantiate Zimmerman's claim that he was walking to his car. Until evidences surfaces to support this claim, it is hear-say.

Why would he call Trayvon a goon? LOL. I urge you to listen to the 911 audio where you can legibly hear him say "coon."

How on earth was Trayvon dressed suspiciously? Since when is it so suspicious to wear a hoodie that it's OK for someone to call the police on you for it? Trayvon was residing in the neighborhood - he was staying at the house with his dad. He DID belong there.


I am not convicting Zimmerman. I am simply saying he should be convicted. I don't have the authority to convict him myself, I am just stating my opinion that it is extremely unjust that there wasn't an immediate arrest. What you seem to not be able to grasp is that whether or not Zimmerman's intentions were racially-driven, that still doesn't negate the fact that he PERSUED an unarmed person who was just trying to go home, and killed him. That is murder.

I'm also wondering why you're ignoring the fact that the forensic voice analysts have concluded that is was certainly not Zimmerman crying for help, meaning it was Trayvon. This completely ruins Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, because 1) Zimmerman claimed that it was HIM crying for help, which it has been established that that is a lie, and 2) since we now know that it was Trayvon and not Zimmerman begging for their life right before the gunshot, we can logically infer that Zimmerman was in a position of power and not needing self-defense; Trayvon was the one begging for his life. Zimmerman was not defending himself, he was murdering an innocent boy.

You also ignore the fact that the Sanford police have a history of racial injustices. Perhaps you should look into it.

I don't even know where to begin here......Facts are not facts until they are proven. You are calling facts certain aspects of this case that are debatable (at the very least)

1. O'Reilly is no conservative. I'm a conservative and I disagree with him as much as i agree with him. He might be the only moderate talking head on cable.
2. FOX has been biased? AFAIK,all they've said is to investigate and let the chips fall where they may. MSNBC has doctored evidence and turned Not-So-Sharpton loose and you call FOX biased?
3. The fact that Trayvon was shot 70 ft from his house and on a lawn has nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman was en route to his car when it happened.
4. Zimmerman's comments are hear-say? Do you know the definition of hear-say? Hear-say is when you repeat what someone else told you, not when you answer a question about your actions.
5. Whether he called him a "goon" or a "coon" has nothing to do with whether he committed murder.
6. Hoodies are worn to project a certain "thug" image. I'm an inner-city school teacher. I see it all the time. Its an attempt to appear intimidating.
7. He was not a residenty of the complex. He was a guest there but he did have a right to be there.
8. You're not convicting Zimmerman but you are saying he should be convicted. Of course you haven't the authority to convict, but you are declaring him guilty before he's even been tried.
9. There has been no conclusive forensic voice analysis testified to yet, so we don't know who's on the tape.
10. The Sanford PD's history is not relevant to whether or not this was murder.

Look, if the guy''s guilty, he deserves to be convicted, but its too early make that declaration right now.

socialreject
04-18-2012, 07:22 PM
This is, unfortunately, one of many online "debates" that are happening right now.
Okay, time to slam the hammer down on this issue. Are you ready? Sure? Here goes:

AN ARMED PERSON SHOT AND KILLED AN UNARMED PERSON. It doesn't matter who followed who. It doesn't matter why either one confronted the other. The real issue here is a person (Zimmerman) shot and killed another, unarmed, person (Trayvon). He should be made to pay for this mistake with, at the very least, some prison time. It doesn't matter who started the "fight". Lethal violence in any form is unacceptable. If Zimmerman was not able to shoot to injure, rather than shoot to kill, then he has no right to be carrying a weapon like that if he cannot control himself. The situation should NEVER have been allowed to escalate to that point in the first place. Therefore, since Zimmerman was the one with the gun (and therefore the one with the power), then he has to take responsibility for what happened in some way.

Chgojoe
04-18-2012, 10:09 PM
This is, unfortunately, one of many online "debates" that are happening right now.
Okay, time to slam the hammer down on this issue. Are you ready? Sure? Here goes:

AN ARMED PERSON SHOT AND KILLED AN UNARMED PERSON. It doesn't matter who followed who. It doesn't matter why either one confronted the other. The real issue here is a person (Zimmerman) shot and killed another, unarmed, person (Trayvon). He should be made to pay for this mistake with, at the very least, some prison time. It doesn't matter who started the "fight". Lethal violence in any form is unacceptable. If Zimmerman was not able to shoot to injure, rather than shoot to kill, then he has no right to be carrying a weapon like that if he cannot control himself. The situation should NEVER have been allowed to escalate to that point in the first place. Therefore, since Zimmerman was the one with the gun (and therefore the one with the power), then he has to take responsibility for what happened in some way.

I can't imagine that you have ever been in a fist fight or fired a gun to make an assumption that one could fire a gun during a fight and aim to wound someone. Have you read Floridas Stand and Defend law? If Zimmerman had been out on a public way and jumped by an assailiant that was smashing his head against the ground would you still feel that Zimmerman should be charged if he shot and killed that assailant?

I got jumped on more ways than I have time to respond to. It has been extensivly reported that this took place in a gated community, thus my post that treven had to jump 2 fences to pass through the complex.

Many of you posting cite your prefered news sources as being accurate and conflicting reports as inaccurate. With the history of all of these news organizations I don't understand why you defend the storys they spin.

Have any of you arguing for charging Zimmerman read Floridas Stand and Defend law? Perhaps your argument is with that law. If you haven't read that law how can you say that Zimmerman broke it???


Some of you are so sure he called Treven a coon, there are many interperations, here is another http://gillreport.com/2012/04/video-cnn-enhances-zimmerman-911-tape-finds-possible-racial-slur/ I don't know what Zimmerman said and no matter your feelings on what fits what you want the story to be about none of you do either.

I wish all the Treven supporters would actually read the law and then decide if Zimmerman broke it. Here it is http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html Please read #3 What part of #3 did Zimmerman break?

eagle2
04-18-2012, 10:21 PM
I got jumped on more ways than I have time to respond to. It has been extensivly reported that this took place in a gated community, thus my post that treven had to jump 2 fences to pass through the complex.


Do you have any common sense? Jumping fences is not the only way to enter a gated community.

Chgojoe
04-18-2012, 10:45 PM
Do you have any common sense? Jumping fences is not the only way to enter a gated community.

How about your thoughts after reading the links I provided, isn't that more important than how one physically enters a gated community?

socialreject
04-19-2012, 05:18 AM
Again, people, you are getting bogged down in details that are irrelevant. One question: does George Zimmerman look like he has suffered physically in any way? Any bones broken? No? What that means is that Zimmerman WAS in a position to act non-lethal in some way. The use of lethal force here is blatantly unacceptable. The responsibility here is his.

bem401
04-19-2012, 05:58 AM
Again, people, you are getting bogged down in details that are irrelevant. One question: does George Zimmerman look like he has suffered physically in any way? Any bones broken? No? What that means is that Zimmerman WAS in a position to act non-lethal in some way. The use of lethal force here is blatantly unacceptable. The responsibility here is his.

Actually Zimmerman did appear to have a cut on the back of his head (as seen in Police Department videos) and he reportedly had a broken nose that was treated by EMT's. Of course, we'll just ignore those things. If he defended himself while being attacked, under FL law he has the right to stand and defend himself. Granted there are conflicting reports but, as I've posted several times, justice must be allowed to run its course. You (and others here) are allowing the MSM to manipulate you into arriving prematurely at the conclusion that serves their purposes.

Nina_
04-19-2012, 10:01 AM
Did he call him a goon or a coon? A coon is a racist slang but I haven't hear people use that one in years. Now if he called him a goon maybe he was acting like one (and goon isn't racist as far as I know). .

He called him a coon. Yes coon is a very deeply racist word. You can clearly hear it on the audio... plus, it wouldn't make sense for Zimmerman to call him a goon. How would he have to act to be acting like a goon? When Zimmerman made the racial slur was when he had gotten out of the car to approach Trayvon, who was trying to get away from Zimmerman at the time (as noted in the 911 call where Zimmerman said Trayvon was running away).


However if he did call names (and I haven't heard the tape)what about the bitch from the New Black Panther Party calling white people names? I am white and I don't appreciate being called racist names anymore than anyone else.

If Zimmerman is guilty I hope he's convicted. However I still don't think it's a racist attack, I think that was made up by the media to add fire to the flames
You may be a white person who doesn't appreciate being called racist names, but at least you weren't the black kid who got followed, stalked, and murdered while trying to walk home.

Never-the-less, what on earth do the New Black Panthers have to do with the case at hand? Nothing. They do not matter. They were not involved in the incident and thus bringing up whatever slurs they have made is only an attempt at straying away from the case at hand: Trayvon was murdered and innocent. The New Black Panthers have NOTHING to do with that.

Nina_
04-19-2012, 10:04 AM
The crying for help....experts stated it was something like 48% likely it was not Zimmerman. About as definitive as the young Man's mom stating it was her child. No study definatley states it wasn't Zimmerman...or that it was Martin.



You are completely and 100% wrong! Please learn the facts before you say things that aren't true; the voice analysts did NOT say that it was 48% likely that is was not Zimmerman. What they said was that when they tested Zimmerman's voice to see if it was him screaming, they only came up with a 48% match, and they need at least a 90% match for it to have been Zimmerman's voice. They concluded that is MOST CERTAINLY WAS NOT ZIMMERMAN CRYING FOR HELP. Please learn the facts of this case.

Nina_
04-19-2012, 10:23 AM
I don't even know where to begin here......Facts are not facts until they are proven. You are calling facts certain aspects of this case that are debatable (at the very least)

1. O'Reilly is no conservative. I'm a conservative and I disagree with him as much as i agree with him. He might be the only moderate talking head on cable.
O'Reilly is a right hand man for right hand FOX news. Perhaps you should try tuning into him the next time he speaks on any political or civil issues and you will see what I'm talking about. You're makin' me laugh with this.


2. FOX has been biased? AFAIK,all they've said is to investigate and let the chips fall where they may. MSNBC has doctored evidence and turned Not-So-Sharpton loose and you call FOX biased?
They didn't doctor evidence, they doctored media. They information they release will not be considered by the judge. FOX news has been incredibly one-sided on this (at Zimmerman's defense) and if you can't comprehend that then you do not watch news.


3. The fact that Trayvon was shot 70 ft from his house and on a lawn has nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman was en route to his car when it happened.
Yes the hell it does. The altercation that neighbors saw took place in between two house, on the grass. That is NOWHERE NEAR HIS CAR. Zimmerman clearly stated in the 911 call that it appeared that Trayvon was running away. Zimmerman got out of this car and FOLLOWED him. Do you actually think that Trayvon, who was trying to GET AWAY FROM HIM, somehow had a change of heart and decided to attack Zimmerman while Zimmerman was supposedly on his way back to his car (although he initially confirmed with the dispatcher that he was FOLLOWING TRAYVON) and that somehow, the altercation traveled all the way from Zimmerman's potential course back to his car to a grassy area between two neigbors' houses? What is the likelihood of that?



4. Zimmerman's comments are hear-say? Do you know the definition of hear-say? Hear-say is when you repeat what someone else told you, not when you answer a question about your actions.

The assumption that what Zimmerman said is true is hear-say, because you hear/see that it said it and believe it. That's hear-say, because there is absolutely NO evidence to back up Zimmerman's claims.


5. Whether he called him a "goon" or a "coon" has nothing to do with whether he committed murder.
You are right, but it certainly DOES matter what he called him when people are trying to figure out whether or not his actions were race-motivated. Come on, PLEASE stop acting like this is rocket science.


6. Hoodies are worn to project a certain "thug" image. I'm an inner-city school teacher. I see it all the time. Its an attempt to appear intimidating.
No it is not. This is getting ridiculous. Hoodies are an article of clothing that people of all demographic backgrouns wear; they are comfortable and keep you warm. I wear hoodies and I am not a thug; the girl sitting next to me right now at my school's library is wearing a hoodie and I don't think it's because she wants to commit a crime. If someone is wearing an Abercrombie & Fitch hoodie, I don't think it is to create a thug image. Do you?


7. He was not a residenty of the complex. He was a guest there but he did have a right to be there.
WTF? Where are you getting your info? He was staying at his dad's house for an extended period of time. That means he was residing there. Why are you saying he didn't belong in the neighborhood when he was STAYING there with his dad? Even if he was just a "guest" there, I've never heard of someone being called a guest in a place where they "don't belong."


8. You're not convicting Zimmerman but you are saying he should be convicted. Of course you haven't the authority to convict, but you are declaring him guilty before he's even been tried.
Because when you stalk and pursue someone who is unarmed, then murder them, you should go to prison. By your logic, when I become licensed to carry a gun, I should be able to go around with my gun looking for fights, then start fights just because I know I can kill the person afterwards. Sounds pretty illogical and unethical to me, but by your logic, anyone with a gun should be able to initiate fights and then kill the person they started the fight with.


9. There has been no conclusive forensic voice analysis testified to yet, so we don't know who's on the tape.
We do know who's on the tape, because two forensice voice experts have already concluded that it was not Zimmerman crying for help, and I guarantee you that both of these experts will testify. Here is a link to an article that says, "FORENSIC EXPERTS SAY SCREAMS ON 911 CALL ARE NOT ZIMMERMAN'S" (which proves that Zimmerman lied about him being the one who was screaming for help. http://gawker.com/5898132/forensic-experts-say-screams-on-911-call-are-not-george-zimmermans Read it! You may learn something about a case you apparently have little knowledge about.



10. The Sanford PD's history is not relevant to whether or not this was murder.
I never said it was, please don't put words in my mouth for the sake of your flawed argument; The Sanford police's history IS relevant to the fact they certainly should have immediately arrested and charged Zimmerman but didn't. The Sanford police's history shows that they have little concern for homicides in which the victim is black.

Any other fallacies you'd like me to refute for you?

Raider
04-19-2012, 10:52 AM
You are completely and 100% wrong! Please learn the facts before you say things that aren't true; the voice analysts did NOT say that it was 48% likely that is was not Zimmerman. What they said was that when they tested Zimmerman's voice to see if it was him screaming, they only came up with a 48% match, and they need at least a 90% match for it to have been Zimmerman's voice. They concluded that is MOST CERTAINLY WAS NOT ZIMMERMAN CRYING FOR HELP. Please learn the facts of this case.

Yes....you are correct and I ''mispoke'' and was commenting from memory. Not intentionally which somewhat reinforces that inaccurate information tends to come out. Apologies ....

Sophia_Starina
04-19-2012, 10:53 AM
A young man wore a hoodie in the rain and walked through an apartment complex.
A grown man thought it was suspicious. He called 911.
The man stated that the teenager was running away from him on the 911 call.
The 911 operated directed the man to stop pursuing the teenager.
The man didn't follow the instructions that the 911 operator provided.
..........

This is all from the transcript. ^^^^



The man shoots the teenager.
The teenager dies.





Chasing someone against official orders, accosting them then and using deadly force doesn't make for a very strong self defense case.

I think the outrage stems from the fact that Zimmerman wasn't charged initially. Which is ridiculous (!!!) since Zimmerman's own words on the 911 call attest to the fact that he himself was in no danger... and the claim of self defense (when he was the one who initiated the confrontation and he was the one with a deadly weapon on his person) is preposterous.

The DA, the police, and what ever other entities had their hands in this case are responsible for the damning media/public response. They fucked up. Big time.

Raider
04-19-2012, 11:17 AM
^ and an unofficial release of the transcript continues with Zimmerman telling the dispatch that he wants the responding officers to meet him where his truck is parked near the mail boxes. Now...of course this doesn't mean that he did start to head back to his truck....and didn't start following again. Yet, it does raise the question of if that is not what he was doing, why would he tell dispatch to have the officers meet him back by his truck??

Also, a question ....did not the young man's girlfriend make a statement that the first she heard of contact between the two before the phone went dead was the young man asking Zimmerman why he was following him? Does that not indicate that it was the young man that at minimum initiated actual contact between the two taking away from the concept of ''continued to flee'' and somewhat reinforcing Zimmerman's claim that he was walking back to his truck when confronted???|

While it was still a ''legal right to be there'' my understanding was he was staying at his father's fiance residense....not at his dad's after his mom sent him to be with his dad due to his school suspension. Merely, a point as to how easy it is sometimes for inaccurate information to get out.

loveshooks
04-19-2012, 11:36 AM
A young man wore a hoodie in the rain and walked through an apartment complex.
A grown man thought it was suspicious. He called 911.
The man stated that the teenager was running away from him on the 911 call.
The 911 operated directed the man to stop pursuing the teenager.
The man didn't follow the instructions that the 911 operator provided.
..........

This is all from the transcript. ^^^^



The man shoots the teenager.
The teenager dies

The entire post was fantastic, but I'm quoting and emphasizing the portion that pertains to something we in North America are very uncomfortable talking about, namely the issue of race.

I'm baffled by statements that infer that in discussing the details of this case, one is 'playing the race card'. The entire incident would have not occurred if Martin had not embodied Zimmerman's conceptualization of a 'criminal'. The trope of young Black male criminality is deeply entrenched, reproduced over generations, and we are socialized into a society that teaches us these tropes. Here in Toronto, even the Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers openly discusses the scrutiny and over-policing its members experience out of uniform, and this phenomenon is hardly unique across the continent.

Martin did not fit Zimmerman's conception of who belonged within that space, and he fit Zimmerman's heuristic of criminality simply by being a young Black male. Everything that followed is a consequence of Zimmerman's appraisal of Martin as a suspicious threat based solely on that. That's why the issue of race is pertinent. The issue won't be solved within the confines of this case, regardless of the penalty (if any) that Zimmerman receives for his actions. That said, discussing race when it is a pertinent factor in an event is not 'playing the race card'. I'd argue the opposite serves only to entrench the status quo.

Sophia_Starina
04-19-2012, 11:36 AM
^ and an unofficial release of the transcript continues with Zimmerman telling the dispatch that he wants the responding officers to meet him where his truck is parked near the mail boxes. Now...of course this doesn't mean that he did start to head back to his truck....and didn't start following again. Yet, it does raise the question of if that is not what he was doing, why would he tell dispatch to have the officers meet him back by his truck??

Also, a question ....did not the young man's girlfriend make a statement that the first she heard of contact between the two before the phone went dead was the young man asking Zimmerman why he was following him? Does that not indicate that it was the young man that at minimum initiated actual contact between the two taking away from the concept of ''continued to flee'' and somewhat reinforcing Zimmerman's claim that he was walking back to his truck when confronted???|

While it was still a ''legal right to be there'' my understanding was he was staying at his father's fiance residense....not at his dad's after his mom sent him to be with his dad due to his school suspension. Merely, a point as to how easy it is sometimes for inaccurate information to get out.



Meh. This could all have been avoided if Zimmerman waited for the authorities in his truck... with the doors locked.

Reasonable people (at least as far as I know) wouldn't leave the safety of a car/house/room/etc. to confront someone that they felt was so threatening that they called 911.

The whole scenario is a mess.

Nina_
04-19-2012, 11:38 AM
^ and an unofficial release of the transcript continues with Zimmerman telling the dispatch that he wants the responding officers to meet him where his truck is parked near the mail boxes. Now...of course this doesn't mean that he did start to head back to his truck....and didn't start following again. Yet, it does raise the question of if that is not what he was doing, why would he tell dispatch to have the officers meet him back by his truck??
Hmm... I would sure like to see these transcipts. Can you provide me with a link? If so, I will provide you with a refutation.


Also, a question ....did not the young man's girlfriend make a statement that the first she heard of contact between the two before the phone went dead was the young man asking Zimmerman why he was following him? Does that not indicate that it was the young man that at minimum initiated actual contact between the two taking away from the concept of ''continued to flee'' and somewhat reinforcing Zimmerman's claim that he was walking back to his truck when confronted???|
No, his girlfriend made a statement that Trayvon was on the phone with her and told her that someone was following. She told him to run, and he said, "I'll just walk fast." Her version of what happened goes along with the FACT that Zimmerman was following Travyon. Zimmerman himself even stated that he was following Trayvon and that Trayvon appeared to be running. If Zimmerman claims that Trayvon initially attacked him, this contradicts his actions of following and pursuing Trayvon, who was trying to get away from Zimmerman, as Zimmerman even stated in his 911 call.


While it was still a ''legal right to be there'' my understanding was he was staying at his father's fiance residense....not at his dad's after his mom sent him to be with his dad due to his school suspension. Merely, a point as to how easy it is sometimes for inaccurate information to get out.
I fail to see your point with this; what is your point, anyway? Trayvon was still residing at the home of his father's fiance. You do not have to be permanently living somewhere to be residing there and/or belonging there. Trayvon had every right to be where he was. He was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

"Second-degree murder [and I quote this from http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/apr/11/official-zimmerman-be-charged-trayvon-martin-shoot/] is typically brought in cases when there is a fight or other confrontation that results in death but involves no premeditation to kill. It carries a mandatory minimum of 25 years behind bars when a gun is used."
Hmm... sounds like Zimm is guilty to me!

It is also important to note that even if Zimmerman had minor injuries (they WERE minor, if they were injuries at all, seeing as how he opted not to get EMS services, seeing as how he did not need them), that does not prove that he was acting in self-defence. If you are acting in self-defense because someone is beating you up, you must be on the verge of dying; your life must be in danger. Zimmerman was able to walk into the police station with no apparent serious injuries. He was not struggling for his life.

A mortician at the funeral home who examined Trayvon's corpse said he showed no signs of a fight, just a gunshot wound to the chest. I wonder how he was able to supposedly beat Zimmerman up so badly that Zimm had to shoot Trayvon, without Trayvon having any bruised/cut knuckles (etc) which is generally the outcome of someone beating another person to a pulp.

I think it's funny how people who are defending Zimmerman fail to acknowledge the Trayvon was BEGGING FOR HELP and screaming for his life right before Zimmerman shot the gun that killed him. This has been determined by forensic voice experts; if Trayvon was crying for his life right before Zimmerman shot him, how on earth can Zimmerman's self defense claim have any validity whatsoever?

These facts alone scream that Zimmerman is guilty, and they are FACTS. If you still think otherwise, that's laughable. It is also extremely disrespectul and outrageous that people are actually blaming Trayvon for his own murder, when all he was doing was walking home from the store. Pitiful.

Nina_
04-19-2012, 11:53 AM
This whole case, tragic while it may be, is nothing but a ploy by the racists on the Left....Sharpton, Jackson, apparently Obama, the New Black Panthers, and NBC.... to try playing the race card. If the guy is guilty, he ought to be convicted. If he was defending himself, he ought to be acquitted. Either way, those five racist clowns ought to step back and let the justice system do its job without running their mouths and trying to skew perceptions. Any he appears to have been overcharged as far as Murder 2 is concerned.
It is quite hilarious that, to you, anyone who stands up for blacks rights is a racist. I'm not even going to get into the NBP because they're completely radical, but seriously, Obama is "racist" to you just because he commented on the case and said he hopes we can reach justice? He didn't say anything biased at all. And FYI he is half white. Did you know that?

Chgojoe
04-19-2012, 12:10 PM
Nina would you please provide links to all of the statments you have made to prove that they are facts?

eagle2
04-19-2012, 12:49 PM
^ and an unofficial release of the transcript continues with Zimmerman telling the dispatch that he wants the responding officers to meet him where his truck is parked near the mail boxes. Now...of course this doesn't mean that he did start to head back to his truck....and didn't start following again. Yet, it does raise the question of if that is not what he was doing, why would he tell dispatch to have the officers meet him back by his truck??


Here is a link to the transcript:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Zimmerman did not say he wants the officers to meet him near the mailboxes. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he wanted the officers to meet him there. Zimmerman told the dispatcher to have the police call him when they got there and he would tell them where he's at.

bem401
04-19-2012, 01:17 PM
It is quite hilarious that, to you, anyone who stands up for blacks rights is a racist. I'm not even going to get into the NBP because they're completely radical, but seriously, Obama is "racist" to you just because he commented on the case and said he hopes we can reach justice? He didn't say anything biased at all. And FYI he is half white. Did you know that?

All 5 parties mentioned in my post played the race card. Sharpton, Jackson, and Obama are in the positions they're in because they (and their people) eagerly play the race card whenever it benefits them. You yourself admit the NBP is racist and NBC is nothing but a liberal propaganda vehicle. If the men in question are so concerned about the welfare of black folks, why have they been so conspicuously quiet about the nearly 1000 young black men nationwide murdered overwhelmingly by other young black men since Trayvon was killed? The reason is they are all about turning this to their advantage.

Nobody here has defended Zimmerman but we criticize those arrogant and foolish enough to think they're qualified to dictate justice themselves.

You need to learn what hearsay is. Hearsay means secondhand information and nothing else. Nothing Zimmerman says in this case is hearsay. BTW your response to item 10 in the list is amusing. You accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then turn around and say exactly what I said you said.

Oh, and wearing a hoodie in Central FL in a gated community with a recent rash of break-ins and acting suspiciously is different than wearing a hoodie in Detroit.

Raider
04-19-2012, 01:32 PM
I am computer stupid as far as pasting a link....I know...lame. I searched for 'Zimmerman 911 transcript" and it was under a source of phoeb53.wordpress. Sorry....yet it does seem like your statement of ''you will refute'' indicates your predetermination that the transcript is somehow inaccurate or doesn't reflect at very minimum his intent to return to the vehicle prior to your even reading the transcript.

Did not the same link that you provided to clarify the screams for help also indicate that it could not be determined that it was Martin's voice??

There have been comments made that Zimmerman was overcharged. True? If so, was it done to scare him into pleading to a lesser charge knowing they really dont have a case? The law also states the act described to include ''envincing a depraved mind regardless of human life'' yet IF he was being beaten there was no depraved mind regardless of human life. and the ''act imminently dangerous to another'' would be justified as self defense.

The phone call with his girlfriend was as you described and supported by Zimmerman saying he is running. That, according to the transcript, is when Zimmerman said he was returning to his vehicle. So...did he start back..and was confronted by Martin...or did he spot Martin and start following him again? Yet even though as you described I thought there was more to the statement by the girlfriend. I know I read...that his girl friend stated initial contact she heard was Martin saying...''Why are you following me?" ...which was after both ''sides'' say Martin was running away. So....who found whom??? Who started initial verbal confrontation? I have no clue....and don't think anyone does either.

My only point in clarifying where he was staying is how easy it is for inaccurate information to be put out there. I even stated...it doesnt change his right to be there. inaccurate; as the example also where I was inaccurate about the voice on the tape. i have heard everything you can imagine. Gun not confiscated. Gun in police possession. Scene not taped off....Scened taped off. Zimmerman showed no signs of injury...Zimmerman received first aid at the scene. Zimmerman had 40 some 911 calls in previous two months....or was it over two years as also reported? Zimmerman was a racist...nope...Zimmerman mentored black children thru the church. Martin's mom said she knew it was an accident...Martin's mom claims she meant them crossing paths....Martin's fist would be bruised if hit him....Martin's fist wouldn't have had time to bruise before death. Martin's mom says it was his voice....witness says it wasn't. Witness claims saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Some claim no signs of injury...claims neighbors reported Zimmerman bandaged and swollen nose the next day.....No sign of Zimmerman being held on ground....back of clothes stained and wet from the grass. Zimmerman 240 lbs...nope 5'8'' and 185. Zimmerman's past of assault claims relevant....Martin's possibly assaulting bus driver not relevant. Martin suspended from school for drug remnants in baggie. ....Martin suspended for being in unathorized area. Hell...I don't know which is accurate on some (all?) of this stuff.

Honestly...not trying to defend him yet tired of the way it has been reported and commented on. Use of the out dated picture to create sympathy...use of mug shot for Zimmerman ....phrases of pursued...chased...confronted....provoked...assaul ted...murdered. Even if initial conversation between the two was actually Zimmerman ''confronting'' him it does not mean provoked or assaulted. Zimmerman had the right to investigate a strange person in his neighborhood where there had been previous break ins. Was Zimmerman told to stop...or was he told ''we don't need you to do that''. One is a suggestion...one is an order which would bring to question if ordered...does a dispatcher have the authority?

Yes....all would have been avoided if Zimmerman had called and stayed in his vehicle and waited. Yet, I can also understand following from a distance in order to keep the individual in sight. Don't think that despite any verdict or court case...we will ever know for sure who ''closed the distance'' between the two to the point that a physical confrontation was even possible.

And depite a possible past history of racism....my understanding is the police wanted to charge but the DA stated didn't have sufficient grounds to do so.

Sophia_Starina
04-19-2012, 04:36 PM
Loveshooks... I'll be the first to tell you that racism is alive and well in America. Big time.

But race aside.... and trust me we can make an educated guess of what was going through Zimmermans mind.... the bare-bones of the scenario SCREAM of further investigation.

Zimmerman pursued someone he felt was "suspicious", that word is very subjective.
He's entitled to call the authorities.
Zimmerman called the authorities and they advised him to cease and desist.
He was armed, he was in a car (or near a car), he had advised law enforcement of the "suspicious" person in his midst.

He could have stayed in his vehicle. He could have stayed near his vehicle. He could have taken a photo of the "suspicious" person with his phone. He could have waited for the police. He could have gone home. He could have done about a thousand different things.

Zimmerman, however, pursued a course of egregious vigilantism and took the law into his own hands.

Zimmerman acted as judge, jury and executioner based on a premise. He needs to be held accountable for those actions.

Kellydancer
04-19-2012, 08:58 PM
He called him a coon. Yes coon is a very deeply racist word. You can clearly hear it on the audio... plus, it wouldn't make sense for Zimmerman to call him a goon. How would he have to act to be acting like a goon? When Zimmerman made the racial slur was when he had gotten out of the car to approach Trayvon, who was trying to get away from Zimmerman at the time (as noted in the 911 call where Zimmerman said Trayvon was running away).

Well this is a new thing I hadn't heard before but I will look for the tapes. Yes coon is a racist term but seems rather odd that he would use an outdated term.



You may be a white person who doesn't appreciate being called racist names, but at least you weren't the black kid who got followed, stalked, and murdered while trying to walk home.

Never-the-less, what on earth do the New Black Panthers have to do with the case at hand? Nothing. They do not matter. They were not involved in the incident and thus bringing up whatever slurs they have made is only an attempt at straying away from the case at hand: Trayvon was murdered and innocent. The New Black Panthers have NOTHING to do with that.

No I haven't been murdered obviously but I was stalked and harassed several times by black men who were throwing rocks at me and calling me names. No I don't think most black men are bad, in fact many are friends but the ones who are bad are awful and attacking someone because of race is never right.

I mentioned the New Black Panthers because of the comments. I don't feel making racist comments is appropriate. Not to mention this guy was Hispanic not white.

Kellydancer
04-19-2012, 09:18 PM
The entire post was fantastic, but I'm quoting and emphasizing the portion that pertains to something we in North America are very uncomfortable talking about, namely the issue of race.

I'm baffled by statements that infer that in discussing the details of this case, one is 'playing the race card'. The entire incident would have not occurred if Martin had not embodied Zimmerman's conceptualization of a 'criminal'. The trope of young Black male criminality is deeply entrenched, reproduced over generations, and we are socialized into a society that teaches us these tropes. Here in Toronto, even the Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers openly discusses the scrutiny and over-policing its members experience out of uniform, and this phenomenon is hardly unique across the continent.

Martin did not fit Zimmerman's conception of who belonged within that space, and he fit Zimmerman's heuristic of criminality simply by being a young Black male. Everything that followed is a consequence of Zimmerman's appraisal of Martin as a suspicious threat based solely on that. That's why the issue of race is pertinent. The issue won't be solved within the confines of this case, regardless of the penalty (if any) that Zimmerman receives for his actions. That said, discussing race when it is a pertinent factor in an event is not 'playing the race card'. I'd argue the opposite serves only to entrench the status quo.

I will be the first to admit there is still racism. I have been places with a guy I was dating (black man)and we were followed by cops, and have heard racist terms thrown at black people I have known. However, the fact remains that Jackson, Sharpton and the others often use the race excuse. I have had black people blame me for slavery, though my family never owned slaves and in fact most weren't over here and the others that were likely weren't white.

I am from Chicago and at one time lived in a low income area that was high income and the ones who caused trouble were all black gang members. This doesn't mean all black men are in gangs, in fact most I know are great people but a black man is more likely to be a gang member than a white guy. Black gangs have ruined a lot of neighborhoods and I have had black middle class tell me they were ashamed to be the same race as these thugs. Now someone could say these guys didn't have the same opportunities and I would agree, except that many of them did have options but chose not to help themselves so my sympathy ends.

However even though he wasn't as far as I know in a gang, so that doesn't apply to him.

Melonie
04-20-2012, 02:02 AM
trying to circle back to the original limited discussion on media reporting of Trayvon/Zimmerman ...

(snip)"The CNN report that Zimmerman, on the call to the cops, used a racial slur, "(bleeping) coon," has been withdrawn. What Zimmerman said was that it was "(bleeping) cold" outside.(snip)

bem401
04-20-2012, 04:20 AM
Zimmerman, however, pursued a course of egregious vigilantism and took the law into his own hands.

Zimmerman acted as judge, jury and executioner based on a premise. He needs to be held accountable for those actions.

Yeah, but you (and plenty of others) are acting as judge, jury, and executioner when declaring Zimmerman guilty of acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Try to look objectively at things.........the media doctored audio tapes, only showed us old pictures of a very young Trayvon, showed an old booking photo for Zimmerman, avoided showing the wound on Zimmerman's head, now have been shown to have also misreported the 'coon" thing and on top of all that, Sharpton and Jackson, two of the most reprehensible characters in this country, are leading the charge. These two are noted for scamming the American public.

Chgojoe
04-20-2012, 05:27 AM
Here is a link to the transcript:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Zimmerman did not say he wants the officers to meet him near the mailboxes. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he wanted the officers to meet him there. Zimmerman told the dispatcher to have the police call him when they got there and he would tell them where he's at.


In that transcript Zimmerman told the dispatcher the kid had ran away and there is no indication that Zimmerman was or was about to chase him. It seems implausable that with a head start running away and the 28yo showing no inclination to give chase that he could have suddenly gave chase and ran the 17yo down.

Chgojoe
04-20-2012, 05:36 AM
trying to circle back to the original limited discussion on media reporting of Trayvon/Zimmerman ...

(snip)"The CNN report that Zimmerman, on the call to the cops, used a racial slur, "(bleeping) coon," has been withdrawn. What Zimmerman said was that it was "(bleeping) cold" outside.(snip)

I gave a link to that earlier in the thread. I don't know how accurate that interperation is as it may have been doctored. Its really pathetic that so many things have been reported in the media, retracted, and posted in this thread as facts. The media gets to make their headlines, manipulate the story, misrepresent facts, make a small retraction and the momentum they created has people holding to disproven reports as they are the gospel truth.

Raider
04-20-2012, 05:38 AM
^^ And right before the statement of ''have the officers call when they got there'' he is asked do you want them to meet you at the mail box and he says yeh, that's fine......and states he doesn't know where Martin is. Seems more like a scenario of confusion as to where the mailboxes are as opposed to confusion as to where Zimmerman plans to be expecially seeing he has no idea where the young man is.

Sophia_Starina
04-20-2012, 07:27 AM
Yeah, but you (and plenty of others) are acting as judge, jury, and executioner when declaring Zimmerman guilty of acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Try to look objectively at things.........the media doctored audio tapes, only showed us old pictures of a very young Trayvon, showed an old booking photo for Zimmerman, avoided showing the wound on Zimmerman's head, now have been shown to have also misreported the 'coon" thing and on top of all that, Sharpton and Jackson, two of the most reprehensible characters in this country, are leading the charge. These two are noted for scamming the American public.

The media, various public figures, and special interest groups have hyped and sensationalized this case, no doubt! That has no bearing on my perception of the case as it stands.

If there is truth that needs to come out... by all means... have Zimmerman & Sanford Florida Attorneys reveal that truth in a court of law.

The events that took place on February 26th warrant further investigation and examination.

Vigilantism isn't appropriate. Especially when there was no threat posed to anyone in the community... nor to Zimmerman until he chose to confront an unarmed teenage boy just passing through a housing complex.

Zimmerman's preconceived notions about a young man in a hoodie don't grant Zimmerman the authority to kill him with impunity.

The fact that Zimmerman was initially let off the hook is absurd. That's what people are pissed about.

Sophia_Starina
04-20-2012, 08:10 AM
I'm watching the court footage. Zimmerman is going to be bonded out for $150,000.

roast
04-20-2012, 08:45 AM
the bare-bones of the scenario SCREAM of further investigation.

yea, uh Im not even sure among rational people how this could even be debate. Anywhere? I mean, I completely understand why it is sociologically which is fucking depressing.

A child was shot and killed. The circumstances should be reviewed in court but nothing was thoroughly investigated initially and the shooter was let go. The parents issued a call for it to be looked into again, which is the right of any victim's families. People are allowed to ask for second opinions, human error is real, that is why appeals exist. If you believe in the principles of democracy (aka populism) - the people spoke? The public responded by the tens of thousands calling for it to be investigated. So it is now being investigated. What is so threatening about that that people are scrambling to justify the shooters actions? Shouldnt uh it just be, ya know, investigated?

The question is rhetorical.

Focusing on groups like the Black Panther Party when white supremacists sites are saying incredibly shitty things (but with much less press attention) is a complete derail from the facts: someone was killed and the case was asked to be reviewed. So now it is being reviewed.

The total lack of selfawareness while being mad at people for even invoking racism (example: "urban" youth wear hoodies to appear intimidating) is incredible. Healthy skepticism is only healthy if youre not as hysterical as the people youre accusing of being hysterical. You cant accuse people of people 'judge, jury, and executioner'* when your very clearly having one.

(*someone was murdered? can we not forget that that this case has a fair amount to do with vigilantism - which is premised on someone making themselves judge, jury, and executioner to begin with)

Like I get tired of this debate before it even starts. People are incapable of having a conversation about hard conversations. You cant talk about the justice system without discussing sociology (which is why in academia and even in technical training schools, theyre often taught hand in hand) -- and conversations about systemic problems with our society cant happen on a large scale bc people dont know how to speak or listen to each other's broken hearts. I say broken hearts because that is what systemic oppressions are. Unfortunately even saying that raises ppl's heckles bc is how deeply and institutionally fractured our society is - so it needs to be reduced into the simplest terms: someone was murdered, there was a request for it to be investigated which is legally the family (and the state's) right, so it being done. George Z has the right to defend himself and probably due to the media attention and his own lack of funding he'd rather not go with a public defender, so he is appealing to the public for funding. He's allowed.

Which also goes to say that George Zimmerman will (and has?) receive a lot of financial backing, there are many many many people enraged about his case being investigated - to the point of even the Martin family and family associates receiving death threats (?!). He isnt this tarred and fathered victim with no resources and no one on his side. Like I get sometimes people like to be the "healthy skeptic" (see two paragraphs up as that doesnt really apply in how most conversations about this case goes) but it isnt edgy or contrarian to be in his corner. He just got bonded, he wasnt remanded. Like him being painted as a victim from one "side" is silly - he's getting his due process.


Hoodies (http://ladydeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/paris-with-are-you-lamb-enough-fade-fleece-hoodie.jpg)are (http://copcop.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/fafckim-kardashian-300.jpg)worn (http://uploads.kidzworld.com/article/24856/a9321i0_gwen-185.gif)by (http://www.straw.com/cpy/patterns/baby-child/images/puffin-hoodie4.jpg)urban (http://www.sugarscape.com/userfiles/Olsen.jpg)youth (http://photosbyallison.com/images/categories/babies/toddler_blue_hoodie.jpg)to (http://www.celebitchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/angelina_jolie_02_wenn5459244.jpg) be (http://www.whudat.com/news/images/lenny-kravitz-thanks-teena-marie.jpg)intimidating (http://www.oddonion.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/ff00b_120327040258-mark-zuckerberg-famous-hoodies-horizontal-gallery.jpg). fuck the weather and widespread fashion culture, amirite? hahaha. What a relevant ad totally self-aware comment by a deep thinker who is being very fair and balanced and detached from bias.

This case is stirring up emotions for everyone (even, or Id say especially, those calling for 'reason')- and there are important reasons for it that wont just... go away because conversations about racism, class, age, and location make you personally uncomfortable. Theyre coming up for reason. It wont just vanish.

However I hope that as much fact can be determined remains king in this case. For justice's sake. Which is kind of the point as someone was killed.

Sophia_Starina
04-20-2012, 08:54 AM
Yea, uh Im not even sure among rational people how this could even be debate.

A child was shot and killed. The circumstances should be reviewed in court but nothing was thoroughly investigated initially and the shooter was let go.

This! ^^^ Exactly.