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Dirty Ernie
04-29-2012, 08:00 AM
... For all we know, he spotted a suspicious character, began following him, called 911, and stood down when told he didn't need to pursue Martin. Maybe that teen-aged boy is dead because he then confronted and assaulted an armed man who might have done nothing more than defend himself in accordance with FL law..

For all we know, Zimmerman could have ambushed Martin and slipped in the pool of blood and cracked his own head. Point being, wild speculation in an effort to bolster one's point of view is rather useless.

I certainly do not believe Zimmerman got out of his vehicle with the intention to kill Martin. Regardless of how the confrontation occurred, we do know from the 911 call and the statement from Martin's girlfriend, Zimmerman lost visual contact and left his vehicle to prevent Martin from getting away because "they always do" and Martin was aware he was being followed. Whether Martin confronted his pursuer or Zimmerman approached Martin with the intent to hold him, it's likely Martin was unaware Zimmerman was armed. And since Martin had not done anything to warrant being detained by neither the police nor some citizen watchman with zero authority to do so, things escalated to a physical confrontation, of which Martin apparently got the upper hand and Zimmerman felt justified in shooting him.

I contend it was Martin who had the right to the Stand Your Ground law and if he had known Zimmerman was armed, would have been better off to continue to beat Zimmerman's head into the ground until he was dead. But I doubt Martin would have been allowed to go free in those circumstances.

luscious sadie
04-29-2012, 08:19 AM
Completely agreed. I don't know if Martin was a good kid or not but am tired of people talking how an "innocent" 17 year old was killed. If he was a gang member I have no qualms about him being killed. I despise gang members and they destroyed an area I grew up in so screw each and every one of them. Yes, most of them appear to be "innocent" teenagers but they aren't. I don't know if he was into a gang but on the other hand none of us really know how good of a kid he was either. Want to read about a truly good kid who lost his life (and who was a black teen to boot), read about Blair Holt. This was an innocent kid killed by a gang member. Yet because it was a black kid killed by a black kid it didn't get the attention this did.

are you for real? This kid was walking home, minding his own business. Zimmerman called 911 on him and then despite what the operator said followed and started a confrontation with Martin. Regardless of Martin's past, he was doing NOTHING wrong. Regardless of whether or not he managed to bloody Zimmerman up, Zimmerman had no right to have even followed him or started a confrontation. It doesn't matter if Martin was a thug. He should not be dead or guilty based on his past when Zimmerman acted the way that he did.

Raider
04-29-2012, 08:20 AM
For all we know, Zimmerman could have ambushed Martin and slipped in the pool of blood and cracked his own head. Point being, wild speculation in an effort to bolster one's point of view is rather useless.

I contend it was Martin who had the right to the Stand Your Ground law......

I am going to go with wild speculation on my part and guess you were being a little sarcastic in your comment about slipping in the blood and cracking his own head seeing after cracking the back of his head he would have had to get up...slip again....and this time smack his nose into the cement and that theory isn't supported by the eye witness who say Martin on top of Zimmerman. Point taken though. You shoot down 'wild speculation' yet then turn and speculate that Zimmerman was actually attempting to detain Martin as opposed to merely observing. There is nothing to support this speculation.

Martin certainly had rights ...the right to confront Zimmerman and ask why he was being followed. He had the right to be offended if he felt it was based on race. But Martin had no right to feel threatened by Zimmerman with Zimmerman only following from a distance as all indications were Martin was ''running away'' and certainly had no right to claim ''stand your ground'' when any perceived threat from being followed was eliminated by his running away.

Raider
04-29-2012, 08:28 AM
are you for real? This kid was walking home, minding his own business. Zimmerman called 911 on him and then despite what the operator said followed and started a confrontation with Martin. Regardless of Martin's past, he was doing NOTHING wrong. Regardless of whether or not he managed to bloody Zimmerman up, Zimmerman had no right to have even followed him or started a confrontation. It doesn't matter if Martin was a thug. He should not be dead or guilty based on his past when Zimmerman acted the way that he did.


Once again...911 transcript indicates he was not walking home minding his business...according to the call (yes, from Zimmerman) he was ''just walking around, looking about. He's just staring looking at all the houses.'' So..he was merely walking about...with no obvious destination looking at residences where there had been numerous burglaries and recent breakins. Zimmeman had every right to follow and observe and to call 911. There is absolutely no evidence ( case investigator) as to which of the two initiated the confrontation.

Dirty Ernie
04-29-2012, 08:40 AM
There is a difference between wild speculation and reasonable inferences. Martin stated to his gf he would not run. He was walking fast. And not to flee capture, but to escape possible danger. State of mind is relevant. We are left with inferences because of the 2 principals involved, one is unlikely to ever testify and the other is dead. And actually I provided the option of either approaching the other, hence my use of the word "whether".

bem401
04-29-2012, 09:26 AM
For all we know, Zimmerman could have ambushed Martin and slipped in the pool of blood and cracked his own head. Point being, wild speculation in an effort to bolster one's point of view is rather useless.

I certainly do not believe Zimmerman got out of his vehicle with the intention to kill Martin. Regardless of how the confrontation occurred, we do know from the 911 call and the statement from Martin's girlfriend, Zimmerman lost visual contact and left his vehicle to prevent Martin from getting away because "they always do" and Martin was aware he was being followed. Whether Martin confronted his pursuer or Zimmerman approached Martin with the intent to hold him, it's likely Martin was unaware Zimmerman was armed. And since Martin had not done anything to warrant being detained by neither the police nor some citizen watchman with zero authority to do so, things escalated to a physical confrontation, of which Martin apparently got the upper hand and Zimmerman felt justified in shooting him.

I contend it was Martin who had the right to the Stand Your Ground law and if he had known Zimmerman was armed, would have been better off to continue to beat Zimmerman's head into the ground until he was dead. But I doubt Martin would have been allowed to go free in those circumstances.

Where's the "wild speculation" on my part? IMO, if it was in self-defense, Zimmerman's off the hook, and if it wasn't self defense, he wouldn't have called 911.

Raider
04-29-2012, 09:43 AM
There are actually two separate versions being presented as to the incident.

First, Zimmerman is in truck and notices Martin hanging out around the clubhouse and watches as Martin is looking at the houses and in Zimmerman's mind acting suspiciously. By this time Zimmerman has called 911. Martin walks by truck and at 2:08 into call starts to run. Seconds later, Zimmerman gets out to follow. Zimmerman heads east following Martin who he has lost sight of as Martin runs behind the second building in the direction of the townhouse where he is staying. At a casual jog..the 70 yards to the townhouse could easily be reached in 30 seconds. Zimmerman proceeds beyond area between the two rows of houses and finishes 911 call just past the third row of houses....during this time..he agrees to stop following. His location at this time is confirmed by GPS. Zimmerman heads back to his truck...as he passes the opening between row two and row three of houses he is confronted by Martin who despite having approx two minutes to run away from Zimmerman and reach safety is now near the front area of the two buildings. Either he doubled back after reaching the safety of his townhouse....or for some unknown reason despite his fear....he stopped running and stayed at the front area....where the confrontation took place.

Scenarion two.....pick it up from scenario one where Martin has run away and has two minutes to get away based on timeline on 911 call. Zimmerman has hung up the phone with 911 at 7:13:41. Zimmerman proceeds to and reaches his truck. Within the next minute...Martin approaches truck and asks Zimmerman ''why are you following me'' (words confirmed by Martins girlfriend who hears him ask). Zimmerman responds...'I'm not' Martin takes off running again and heads between buiding two and three once again. Having already lost Martin once, Zimmerman gets out and follows again. Turning the corner between buildings one and two...he is comes upon Martin (stopped fleeing?) approximately a minute after leaving truck. Once again...being only approx 100 yards from the truck to the residence...Martin had time ( one minute) to reach the safety of the townhouse. Seconds later the physical confrontion begins. According to Zimmerman ....it started when he attempted to use his cell phone to once again call 911. 7:16:11 the first 911 call comes in and the shot is heard slightly over a minute after the fighting began.

NOTE: The second one is the scenario that Martin's dad was given by the police the following day when they attempted to explain what events took place. Now...there are TWO POINTS this scenario brings up. This scenario explains the two minutes thirty seconds from when the 911 call ends to the start of the confrontation....thirty seconds to return to truck...conversation within a minute and a minute to reach area where confrontation took place. The first one offers no explanation other than Zimmerman stayed behind building three for two minutes and Martin stayed where he was....the entrance to the area between buildings 2 and 3. Does not make sense to have them both merely hanging around for two minutes...doing nothing. The two MAIN points are as follows.....if Martin was concerned for his safety.....had over two minutes to reach the safety of his dad while Zimmerman completed his call from behind building three.....why would he double back and confront Zimmerman at the truck if he was concerned for his safety?? Why initiate contact with someone you were afraid of as opposed to fleeing to safety when you obviously had time to?? Point two.....Zimmerman...despite after telling dispatch ''ok'' when told they don't need for him to follow....he returned to his truck and then proceeded to follow Martin again after the conversation at the truck. Turning the corner...Martin is there and the confrontation starts. Now.....not only did Zimmerman follow after agreeing not to..looking at it from Martin's view....he is now following Martin after telling Martin he isn't when Martin asked him. If Zimmerman had merely told Martin he was neighborhood watch when Martin confronted him at the truck...would it have defused the situation??

The problem now becomes who initiated the physical confrontation. Case investigator stated at the bail hearing there wasn't evidence that could clearly define who started the struggle. THIS testimony by the investigator could cause a problem in the case as the affadavit in the second degree murder charge stated the probable cause was that Zimmerman indeed confronted Martin and the struggle ensued. The two statements by the state...completely contradict each other.

If the second scenario is accurate...it certainly appears both parties used extremely poor judgement which resulted in the opportunity for the situation to escalate. Martin had more than ample opportunity and time to reach safety and Zimmerman should have realized that the police would soon be there...and just like he wouldn't call 911 if initially intended to cause Martin harm....Martin wouldn't approach him if he had intent to break into a house.

What a mess.....

bem401
04-29-2012, 09:45 AM
are you for real? This kid was walking home, minding his own business. Zimmerman called 911 on him and then despite what the operator said followed and started a confrontation with Martin. Regardless of Martin's past, he was doing NOTHING wrong. Regardless of whether or not he managed to bloody Zimmerman up, Zimmerman had no right to have even followed him or started a confrontation. It doesn't matter if Martin was a thug. He should not be dead or guilty based on his past when Zimmerman acted the way that he did.

In your first sentence, how do you KNOW Martin was walking home minding his own business?
In sentence 2, how do you KNOW Zimmerman continued following him when told it wasn't necessary?
In sentence 2, how do you KNOW Zimmerman started the confrontation?
In sentence 3, how do you KNOW Martin "was doing NOTHING wrong"?
In sentence 4, why wouldn't a neighborhood watchman not have a right to follow a suspicious person?
In sentence 5, where did anyone say whether or not Martin was a thug had anything to do with this case?
in the final sentence, who said Martin was "dead or guilty based on his past"?

The people jumping to conclusions here are the people who've allowed themselves to get manipulated by the characters I've mentioned previously when they have no facts supporting their side as things the media have cited as evidence (recordings and pictures) have been shown to be false or doctored.

eagle2
04-29-2012, 03:47 PM
Wasn't there a thread a few days ago a girl posted about seeing some creepy guy in her window, and being ticked her boyfriend didnt go confront him? Everyone called him a pussy for not charging out there and confronting the guy.

That seems to be the hypocrisy of people at large. When crime goes on, we get mad at people who just sit idly by, and wish they would "do something" other than just wait for cops.

Then, when people do, we're outraged.


Please try re-reading the thread you were referring to, or even just the title.

http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?172797-Prowler-in-your-yard-conforont-him-or-close-curtains

The prowler was in her yard, not on the public sidewalk.




I live about 20 minutes away from where this happened. That neighborhood has been wrecked with crime. It's not uncommon to drive by that exact community and see 15 teenagers (of every race) selling drugs and breaking into houses. The cops simply have too much to do to get anywhere quickly. Waiting for the cops to come is essentially letting the crime happen, because they'll never make it in time.


This wasn't a teenager selling drugs or breaking into a house. He was walking home from the convenience store.

bem401
04-29-2012, 04:02 PM
This wasn't a teenager selling drugs or breaking into a house. He was walking home from the convenience store.

And you know this because??? It was a 6'2" male reportedly seeming to be looking at buildings with a recent history of having been broken into. When spotted by a neighborhood watchman, he reportedly behaved exactly the was someone up to no good would, concealing his identity and trying to elude the watchman by cutting through backyards (in other words, leaving the public sidewalk you mentioned above). Unfortunately for everyone, especially Martin. He was either unsuccessful eluding Zimmerman or decided to confront him.

Nina_
04-30-2012, 11:15 AM
Once again...911 transcript indicates he was not walking home minding his business...according to the call (yes, from Zimmerman) he was ''just walking around, looking about. He's just staring looking at all the houses.'' So..he was merely walking about...with no obvious destination looking at residences where there had been numerous burglaries and recent breakins. Zimmeman had every right to follow and observe and to call 911. There is absolutely no evidence ( case investigator) as to which of the two initiated the confrontation.

That is simply not true. He was walking from the store with Iced Tea and Skittles. Where can you assume he was taking these snacks after just leaving his house prior to going to the store? Also, he was walking in the direction of his home when spotted by Zimmerman. There is no justifiable reason to assume he wasn't walking home. He obviously was, there's NO reason to assume otherwise.

Nina_
04-30-2012, 11:33 AM
Funny, he comments here but remains silent regarding the white guy in Mobile AL attacked and hospitalized in critical condition by a group of blacks chanting "Justice for Trayvon" as they did it. He also fails to comment on the NBP bounty on Zimmerman's head and hasn't commented on the thousand or so other young black men murdered nationwide since Martin died. But he's not playing a race card by weighing in on this one? And "executively active"? Don't you mean "unconstitutionally active"?
Like I've already stated, Obama doesn't have time to make statements on every single aspect of this case. He is staying uninvolved. He spoke about it briefly and unbiasly when asked. The white guy in AL who was attacked is a non-factor because the people who attacked him were arrested and charged. Since you seem incapable of comprehending this, I will reiterate it to you: the reason the case got so much attention is because nothing was being done about the Trayvon's murder. George Zimmerman was free and there was no investigation. Is it that hard for you to understand? People get beat up. People get murdered. Their attackers get arrested. Since this didn't initially happen in the Trayvon case, the public was outraged. Since the public was outraged, Obama was asked to make a statement, which he provided. He did not expand on it and has remained uninvolved. If he commented on every aspect of the case, that would make him involved. Get it?




Who says neighborhood watchmen aren't supposed to keep suspicious characters under surveillance? I have confronted characters in my neighborhood i deemed suspicious. I don't recall whether they wore hoodies or what their race was, but I found them suspicious and approached them.You obviously think you know what Zimmerman was thinking, what Martin was thinking, who confronted whom, who assaulted whom first, how Martin got shot, and how he fell.
(^^Bolded for emphasis) Who says Trayvon was suspicious? Zimmerman? The fact that he was walking while black? I fail to see how walking home with Icea Tea and Skittles is suspicious.

The Sanford Neighorhood Watch rules state that "What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency," therefore Zimmerman's actions where wrong, did not follow the guidelines, and place other people's lives in danger (Trayvon's). Nowhere does it say that it is OK to pursue the "suspect." Zimmerman's "job" as neighborhood watch volunteer was to notify authorities. If the suspect were to get away, Zimmerman's job would have been to provide notes and a description. He was not supposed to play policeman.


If Zimmerman was really interested in confronting and shooting martin, why did he first call the cops
Why did Zimmerman call the cops? Zimmerman has always called the cops. He was especially known for calling the police to report "suspicious black males." Please stop treating this like it's rocket science.


and why did he allow Martin to get close enough to attack him?
You have no evidence at all to justify that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; stop stating it as if it's a well-known truth, you have given no evidence to support this claim yet you're repeating it constantly. Of course you have to constantly repeat fallacies in order to support your flawed claim, I should know better.

We're going in circles now here. I've provided you with plenty of evidence to support that Zimmerman is guilty and refuse to acknowledge ANY OF IT. This is not rocket science, nor is it advanced statistics. It's a very simply matter that you choose to twist and turn into whatever you'd like it to be. Ridiculous.

Nina_
04-30-2012, 11:49 AM
I am going to go with wild speculation on my part and guess you were being a little sarcastic in your comment about slipping in the blood and cracking his own head seeing after cracking the back of his head he would have had to get up...slip again....and this time smack his nose into the cement and that theory isn't supported by the eye witness who say Martin on top of Zimmerman. Point taken though. You shoot down 'wild speculation' yet then turn and speculate that Zimmerman was actually attempting to detain Martin as opposed to merely observing. There is nothing to support this speculation.
The majority of the eye-witnesses say Zimmermas was on top of Trayvon when he killed him; one witness even had the police "correct her" when she was making her statement supporting that Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense. It quite appropriate to speculate that Zimmerman was attempting to detain Martin, seeing as how he said "these assholes always get away," and chased him on-foot. An observer would not get out of his car and chase someone; that's when it becomes pursuing and not just observing.

If his nose were broken and his head so damaged, there would have been EMS reports backing up those claims; since there are not, we needn't act like Zimmerman's injuries were major. In a murder case, if there is no documented police evidence to EMS/major injuries, you cannot just pretend that the injuries were major. As far as his bloody head is concerned, it's common knowledge that heads bleed a lot even if the injury is very minor. Superficial cuts on the head often bleed heavily because there are so many blood vessels near the scalp, but the superficial cut is still a minor injury that will heal properly with home treatment. Considering the fact that although his head was bleeding, he had no trouble walking properly, you can assume that the head injury was minor. In the surveillance video his nose appears to be fine. Since there is nothing to indicate that his injuries directly following the incident were major, you can't just go around saying they were.


Martin certainly had rights ...the right to confront Zimmerman and ask why he was being followed. He had the right to be offended if he felt it was based on race. But Martin had no right to feel threatened by Zimmerman with Zimmerman only following from a distance as all indications were Martin was ''running away'' and certainly had no right to claim ''stand your ground'' when any perceived threat from being followed was eliminated by his running away.
If Zimmerman were only "following from a distance," why was Martin running away with Zimmerman running after him? The fact that Martin was running away supports the claim that Zimmerman was the aggressor. We know that at one point Trayvon was trying to get away from Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was escalating the incident. We do not have any evidence to support the claim that Trayvon someone managed to attacked Zimmerman. Like I previously mentioned, it's hard to believe Zimmerman when he says he got out of his car to look for addresses and then was attacked by Trayvon; the scuffle happened behind the condos. Addresses are posted at the front of houses, not the back. The scuffle also happened 150 feet away from Zimmerman's car, in an area where his car is not even visible. In other words, Zimmerman's lies do not check out.

bem401
04-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Once again, here we go.....

Like I've already stated, Obama doesn't have time to make statements on every single aspect of this case. He is staying uninvolved. He spoke about it briefly and unbiasly when asked. The white guy in AL who was attacked is a non-factor because the people who attacked him were arrested and charged. Since you seem incapable of comprehending this, I will reiterate it to you: the reason the case got so much attention is because nothing was being done about the Trayvon's murder. George Zimmerman was free and there was no investigation. Is it that hard for you to understand? People get beat up. People get murdered. Their attackers get arrested. Since this didn't initially happen in the Trayvon case, the public was outraged. Since the public was outraged, Obama was asked to make a statement, which he provided. He did not expand on it and has remained uninvolved. If he commented on every aspect of the case, that would make him involved. Get it?

1. one more time, "unbiasly" is not a word.
2. the president only spoke because FL is a critical state in the upcoming election . and he needs to galvanize the African-American and liberal vote in that state. That's all he cares about. He hasn't spoken about anything else because there is no political hay for him to make in those cases. Got it? He should have kept his mouth shut. Forty years ago, Nixon made the same mistake when speaking on the Manson case, something he similarly had no inside knowledge of.


(^^Bolded for emphasis) Who says Trayvon was suspicious? Zimmerman? The fact that he was walking while black? I fail to see how walking home with Icea Tea and Skittles is suspicious.

The Sanford Neighorhood Watch rules state that "What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency," therefore Zimmerman's actions where wrong, did not follow the guidelines, and place other people's lives in danger (Trayvon's). Nowhere does it say that it is OK to pursue the "suspect." Zimmerman's "job" as neighborhood watch volunteer was to notify authorities. If the suspect were to get away, Zimmerman's job would have been to provide notes and a description. He was not supposed to play policeman.

Once again, Zimmerman reportedly didn't even realize Martin was black, let alone that he had Skittles and iced tea on him, when he called 911. Read the transcript (not the NBC one), the operator asked him and he offered a guess. What he saw was a 6'2' male walking through the neighborhood, apparently looking at properties in a burglary-prone area, who then reportedly tried to conceal his identity (by pulling up the hoodie) and tried to elude him. In other words, Martin did exactly what a suspicious character would be expected to do.

Regarding the language in the Watch manual, where is there any indication Zimmerman initiated physical involvement or apprehension? The fact that that an armed guy got the crap beat out of him by an unarmed guy would seem to indicate that the unarmed guy somehow or other got the drop on the armed guy. Its the only thing that makes sense.



"suspicious black males."[/b] Please stop treating this like it's rocket science.


You have no evidence at all to justify that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; stop stating it as if it's a well-known truth, you have given no evidence to support this claim yet you're repeating it constantly. Of course you have to constantly repeat fallacies in order to support your flawed claim, I should know better.

We're going in circles now here. I've provided you with plenty of evidence to support that Zimmerman is guilty and refuse to acknowledge ANY OF IT. This is not rocket science, nor is it advanced statistics. It's a very simply matter that you choose to twist and turn into whatever you'd like it to be. Ridiculous.

Whether or not Zimmerman had a history of reporting "suspicious black males" only matters if those males were found to be innocent and nobody has said that was the case. In fact, this is the first time I've heard that. If he'd reported on a bunch of innocent African-American guys in the past, somehow I think we'd have been hearing all about it.

We are going in circles here. You have not provided a single piece of irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman is guilty. I haven't produced a single piece of irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman is not guility. The difference is I admit it and you don't.

Finally, he has to be proven "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and there is no way on Earth that threshold is being reached. You've just been manipulated by the Left into seeing everything in a racist light when there is no conclusive evidence race had anything to do with this case.

Raider
04-30-2012, 12:51 PM
That is simply not true. He was walking from the store with Iced Tea and Skittles. Where can you assume he was taking these snacks after just leaving his house prior to going to the store? Also, he was walking in the direction of his home when spotted by Zimmerman. There is no justifiable reason to assume he wasn't walking home. He obviously was, there's NO reason to assume otherwise.

Really? You refer me to the 911 transcript that eagle posted....tell me to read and then when I take a comment from it indicating that Martin 'was just walking around, looking about and staring at all the houses ' you dismiss it and claim it is not true. I am suppose to take parts of the 911 transcript you feel support your opinion and ignore those statements that don't?? Ultimate destination and the direction he was headed is not relevant to the behavior he is alleged to have portrayed while walking toward the residence.... which justified Zimmemman to have concerns of his intent. No reason to assume otherwise as far as doing anything other than walking home..... His behavior????

Raider
04-30-2012, 01:58 PM
The majority of the eye-witnesses say Zimmermas was on top of Trayvon when he killed him; one witness even had the police "correct her" when she was making her statement supporting that Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense. It quite appropriate to speculate that Zimmerman was attempting to detain Martin, seeing as how he said "these assholes always get away," and chased him on-foot. An observer would not get out of his car and chase someone; that's when it becomes pursuing and not just observing.

If his nose were broken and his head so damaged, there would have been EMS reports backing up those claims; since there are not, we needn't act like Zimmerman's injuries were major. In a murder case, if there is no documented police evidence to EMS/major injuries, you cannot just pretend that the injuries were major. As far as his bloody head is concerned, it's common knowledge that heads bleed a lot even if the injury is very minor. Superficial cuts on the head often bleed heavily because there are so many blood vessels near the scalp, but the superficial cut is still a minor injury that will heal properly with home treatment. Considering the fact that although his head was bleeding, he had no trouble walking properly, you can assume that the head injury was minor. In the surveillance video his nose appears to be fine. Since there is nothing to indicate that his injuries directly following the incident were major, you can't just go around saying they were.


If Zimmerman were only "following from a distance," why was Martin running away with Zimmerman running after him? The fact that Martin was running away supports the claim that Zimmerman was the aggressor. We know that at one point Trayvon was trying to get away from Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was escalating the incident. We do not have any evidence to support the claim that Trayvon someone managed to attacked Zimmerman. Like I previously mentioned, it's hard to believe Zimmerman when he says he got out of his car to look for addresses and then was attacked by Trayvon; the scuffle happened behind the condos. Addresses are posted at the front of houses, not the back. The scuffle also happened 150 feet away from Zimmerman's car, in an area where his car is not even visible. In other words, Zimmerman's lies do not check out.

Nope....there is an eye witness 'John' who made report to the police. ''The guy on ther bottom who had a red sweater on; was yelling to me 'help-help' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911.'' Martin was in a hoodie....Zimmerman in red. His statements to police are intrumental as they back up Zimmerman's claims. 'John' further stated that after calling 911 he got upstairs and looked down and the guy who had been on top beating on the other guy was the one laying in the grass and he believed he was dead at that point. "John's" residence is directly next to where the altercation took place. An observer would indeed get out of his vehicle to follow and keep the person in sight. Getting out of his vehicle and following to observe while does constitute pursuing....it does not in the negative context that you present it here.

Where did I say the injuries to Zimmerman was major? How would Zimmerman know the extent of the injuries he was sustaining as his head was being beat into the cement? Repeated references to ''major'' yet it is well known he was treated at the scene by EMS and a picture taken at the scene moments after the incident. Police said he was bleeding from the nose and the back of the headed and was treated at the scene. Can medical records even be released to the public with the medical privacy act? I will go with the picture and the statement by police of what they observed and that he was treated. Saying the injuries were minor and could be treated at home ...even if true...is nothing more than hindsight that Zimmerman didn't have the advantage of while in the middle of being beaten. The Rodriguez family who live there stated that they saw Zimmerman the next day and his nose was swollen with bandages on the back of his head...and on his nose. A THIRD neighbor confirm this as what she saw also. This confirms defense claims that he sought further treatment the next day.

NO evidence that Zimmerman was ''running'' after him. This allegation merely support your version. Nothing on the 911 tape indicates Martin was running such as shortness of breath whiile talking. You repeatedly use provactive phrases when presenting your version of the events. "...while Zimmerman was escalating the incident" ...''with Zimmerman running after him'' ''Zimmerman's lies''. Only way you can say he 'escalated' the incident is by saying his following was an escalation. The timeline backs up Zimmerman's alleged ''lies''. The witness 'John' back up Zimmerman's alleged 'lies'. The neighbors back up his alleged 'lies' about the injuries.

You keep mentioning looking for addresses. No indication that was his purpose for getting out of the vehicle. I understand your comment that the defense mentioned it yet your comment is the only place I have heard it. Could be.....yet ...look where Z's vehicle is parked..look at your bird's eye view.....if true...could he see the addresses on the building from there?? Doubt it , yet actual belief is that he left to follow and observe. It is repeatedly mentioned Martin ''running away.....running away''. Martin was running away in fear. Zimmeman physical location was placed past the area where the incident took place ...past the last building...placed there by GPS. All this time..that Zimmerman was in one place...confirmed by GPS....finishing his call ...what was Martin doing????? While he was in fear?? It was first reported he was running away at 7:11:42 . The townhouse was 70 yards from where Martin started running. He could reach this easily in thirty seconds at a slow jog..let alone a 'run away in fear'pace. 7:13:41 Zimmerman finishes call from BEHIND the far row of townhouses. This gave Martin TWO minutes to go 70 yards while in fear for his safety. Obviously, he either stopped running ...not in fear...or he doubled back after reaching the safety of his townhouse...once again, obviously not in fear. Martin's dad has stated he was told by police that the timeline and Zimmerman's statement indicate Martin followed Z back to his truck and confronted him there after once running away from and losing Zimmerman. This is where Martin's girlfriend heard him confront Zimmerman asking why he was following him. Please note.....Martin's own words were following...NOT CHASING. Time line supports Zimmerman's version that he again left his truck as Martin ran away once again and he followed in an effort to keep him in sight. Ran? No one knows. Zimmerman following..running ...pursuing...not relevant..... turns the corner between the two rows of houses and Martin is there waiting. As testifed to by the state investigator..no evidence as to who started the physical confrontation.

If it is not to be believed that Zimmerman returned to his truck and was confronted by Martin and that Martin took off again with Zimmerman after him asecond time...then a reasonable explanation is needed for the time between Zimmerman ending his call and the confrontation starting....two minutes and thirty seconds.

Zimmerman's lies? He was questioned by police without representation. If lying...why not at least have an attorney there? He was given a voice stress test....similar to a polygraph. Used by over 1800 state and federal agencies ....along with the U.S. military. Tests came out clean....no additional stress while being questioned and giving his version of events...indicating......truth.

Raider
04-30-2012, 02:30 PM
We are going in circles here. You have not provided a single piece of irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman is guilty. I haven't produced a single piece of irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman is not guility.

Nor have I........either way.

firemaiden04
04-30-2012, 02:35 PM
Wow, look at all the lawyers in this thread!

Djoser
05-01-2012, 12:05 AM
Only two people really know what happened that night, and one of them is dead now. There was a witness who saw them fighting, but he apparently didn't know who started it or why. We don't know what connection, if any, Martin had with the string of burglaries. And we really don't know for a fact that he had no connection with the burglaries.

We just don't know.

So fighting about it incessantly here in the Stripperweb Lounge won't do any good for Martin, or zimmerman if he is really innocent.