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Melonie
06-17-2012, 07:45 AM
from


(snip)"Young illegal immigrants’ amnesty could tighten competition for jobs, college

opponents of illegal immigration warned that the policy could create significant new competition for jobs and university slots at a time of nationwide recession and numerous states’ efforts to curb public spending.

“I see a tidal wave coming,” said Brad Botwin, president of Help Save Maryland, a group that opposes legalization for undocumented immigrants. “Half of our college graduates today can’t find jobs, and the unemployment rate for high-school-aged Americans is extremely high. This is unfair to U.S. citizens and legal immigrants who are out there struggling to get ahead.”(snip)


(snip)The most significant and contentious aspect of the new policy is that it automatically grants hundreds of thousands of people in their teens and 20s — most of them from Mexico and Central America — the right to work in the United States. Many may have already been working, but as undocumented laborers they often had to accept low wages and poor conditions.

“For hundreds of thousands of young people, the immediate effect will be that they can exhale and go out and look for a job,” said Gustavo Andrade, an official of the pro-immigrant group CASA of Maryland.

Effect on low-wage jobs?

But Steven Camarota, a researcher with the nonprofit Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said that the Obama administration was not taking into account the new measure’s probable impact on competition for jobs at the low end of the economic scale, where chronic unemployment is highest. Among Americans with less than a high school education, he said, the jobless rate is 13 percent.

“It doesn’t seem the administration is considering the cascading consequences,” Camarota said. “What does this mean for unemployed Americans who will be competing for jobs with a million-plus people who can now apply for work authorization?(snip)


One obvious impact will be several hundred thousand illegal immigrants being legally able to apply for a fixed number of college admissions slots, for scholarships, grants etc. But some guesswork math would indicate that, out of the total pool of US citizen and legal immigrant college applications, the addition of illegal immigrants covered under the new Presidential Order would add 5% or less to the total pool.

Another obvious consequence, and probably of greater overall significance to SW readers, will be that law abiding US strip clubs can now 'legally' hire from a pool of several hundred thousand illegal immigrant girls between the ages of 18 and 30. This will likely have the greatest impact on corporate chain clubs and 'upscale' clubs, who were in the past reluctant to hire illegal immigrant dancers for fear of bad publicity / ICE enforcement / actions against corporate management etc.

It's unknown at this point how many girls covered under the new Presidential Order would seek work as dancers, or for that matter how many girls covered under the new Presidential Order are already working illegally at smaller, privately owned strip clubs who would use this opportunity to migrate to corporate chain clubs and 'upscale' clubs. But in states / cities with comparatively large illegal immigrant communities ( thinking California to Texas to Florida ) the amount of new dancer 'competition' could be very significant ( potentially something like 20% instead of the 5% above ).

michele11
06-17-2012, 09:13 AM
^ Florida strip clubs are already filled with half foreign dancers now. Key west, miami, west palm are places were they have over half foreign dancers as it is as well as a bunch of other states and it's been this way for years and those girls weren't going anywhere soon. I don't think it's going to effect strip clubs in those areas any.

Trem
06-17-2012, 09:22 AM
Isn't it enough to have turned one forum into a right wing cesspool already?

bem401
06-17-2012, 10:42 AM
^^^ So, we should just ignore stuff we disagree with?

This purely politically-motivated move by Obama is actually bad for every American citizen and legal immigrant, people who followed the rules to get where they are at. Rewarding someone who is in fact in violation of the law is just not the way to go. On top of that, Obama is throwing the presently unemployed in America under the bus, creating what will undoubtedly be even more reliance on public assistance. This only makes it harder for someone to find a job because it increases the pool of potential employees. The unemployment rate for young Blacks is 40% and now Obama is throwing them un der the bus too. It's just the act of a desperate candidate who doesn't like seeing the way his campaign is trending.

It should also be noted this will only lead to an even greater influx of illegals.

tempest666
06-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Has anyone watched the Goobacks episode of South Park? It does bring up some good points.....

Jay12
06-17-2012, 04:13 PM
^ I had seen that episode.

Back to the original topic: the only good thing in here I see is giving temporal permits to people who were brought up here illegally by their parents, but those parents should be deported and should be prosecuted for bringing their children in here and not doing anything to make them legal in their first place.

Kellydancer
06-17-2012, 05:45 PM
Bem is right and yes that is exactly what will happen. In Illinois we already widening the gap between the middle class citizens and those who take advantage of welfare, many of whom are illegals. Meanwhile those who really need the assistance can't get it because of them.

Tempest that is a great episode.

Melonie
06-18-2012, 08:46 AM
Isn't it enough to have turned one forum into a right wing cesspool already?

My post had absolutely nothing to do with politics. I merely cited a significant new dancing business related fact i.e. a new Presidential Order which ... among other things ... will now legally allow clubs such as DejaVu, Scores, Ricks and a host of other upscale / 'corporate' clubs who actually respect US immigration and other laws ... to legally hire new dancers from the pool of several hundred thousand illegal immigrant 'children' ages 18 to 30 who fall under the Presidential Order.

Readers are obviously free to ignore this new development. However, it is extremely doubtful that present 'legal' dancers at upscale strip clubs will be able to ignore it !!!



Florida strip clubs are already filled with half foreign dancers now.

Indeed, a large number of illegal immigrant dancers have been allowed to work in certain strip clubs in Florida, along with Texas, California and many other states. Generally speaking, the clubs which were willing to flaunt US immigration law by hiring illegal immigrant dancers also tended to flount other laws involving such other 'minor sticking points' as prostitution, drugs, theft etc. But illegal immigrant dancers were typically not knowingly allowed to work at upscale / 'corporate' strip clubs due to management reluctance to flount the law, to deal with potential charges being brought against club management, to endure negative publicity effects on stock share prices, to endure negative publicity effects on their upscale customer base etc. This will now officially change !!!

It would also not be beyond the realm of realistic possibility to note that, with the de-facto hiring restrictions against illegal immigrant dancers removed by the Presidential Order, that they will now attempt to improve their earnings potential by moving to upscale / 'corporate' clubs ... which is likely to 'unofficially' change the business model of those clubs.

And, as speculated by the author in my original posted link, ICE policy changes announced in conjunction with the Presidential Order also create the realistic possibility that additional numbers of illegal immigrant dancers not technically meeting the requirements of the Presidential Order will also now be able to obtain 'working papers' based on a GED plus unverifiable statements by 'family members' etc. This development would potentially expand the pool of 'newly hire-able' immigrant dancers well beyond the numbers technically allowed already under the guidelines of the Presidential Order.

michele11
06-18-2012, 11:38 AM
^ Not true racels in west palm is extremely upscale and half the girls there are illegal. Also ricks in new york also tons of illegals. If you have a social they'll hire you and my friend whose been here 10 years illegally from austria has a social and doesn't dance anymore but has a straight job.

Trem
06-18-2012, 11:39 AM
My post had absolutely nothing to do with politics.

That's hilarious.

strippername
06-18-2012, 12:05 PM
You can easily keep to yourself and not say anything, Trem. We read bleeding heart posts all the time without making childish comments. If you don't like what Melonie has to say don't open her threads. Personally, I enjoy them.


That's hilarious.

Think!
06-18-2012, 12:11 PM
^^^ So, we should just ignore stuff we disagree with?

No, you should not ignore 'stuff' you disagree with at all. But if your mission is to incite xenophobia by cutting and pasting articles instead of summarizing and making informed opinions about a subject, then it is problematic for many reasons. Melonie has a habit of cutting and pasting articles from other sources and presenting them as her opinions. Sometimes when I read her posts, I am not sure if they are her opinions, or if they are merely quotes from other sources. There is something called 'paraphrasing;' a skill that is worth developing and acquiring if your intention is to engage in a debate over a topic that you are passionate about. But from what I gather, Melonie is less interested in a debate than she is about presenting a one-sided view of an issue. Terms such as "immigrants" used as the heading of an article or a post are intended to exploit deep-seated fears and insecurities of people especially during an economic recession. Frankly, I find it morally and ethically repugnant. After all, aren't we all immigrants?

Trem
06-18-2012, 12:21 PM
You can easily keep to yourself and not say anything, Trem. We read bleeding heart posts all the time without making childish comments. If you don't like what Melonie has to say don't open her threads. Personally, I enjoy them.

You ignore her and you end up with a forum filled with moronic right wing "news" quotes, it's bad enough what she's done to the dollar den to let her do it here too.

Kellydancer
06-18-2012, 12:26 PM
No, you should not ignore 'stuff' you disagree with at all. But if your mission is to incite xenophobia by cutting and pasting articles instead of summarizing and making informed opinions about a subject, then it is problematic for many reasons. Melonie has a habit of cutting and pasting articles from other sources and presenting them as her opinions. Sometimes when I read her posts, I am not sure if they are her opinions, or if they are merely quotes from other sources. There is something called 'paraphrasing;' a skill that is worthwhile developing and acquiring. After all, aren't we all immigrants?

Yes Cyril we are all immigrants, however not all of us came here illegally. In addition, most of us who are descended from immigrants learned English and worked hard. My great grandparents who came here LEGALLY made sure their kids learned English and guess what? most of my great grandparents lost kids in WW2. My paternal grandmother was never an American citizen (she was British)but never sponged off the system. She could have though since she was married to an American serviceman.

The fact is many of these illegals ignore our laws, refuse to learn English and either don't work or take jobs under the table. In Illinois something like 75% of all illegals are on Medicaid. The public aid departments now require caseworkers to speak Spanish before being hired because such a huge percentage are on welfare. In addition, most of these illegals are unskilled and taking unskilled jobs from American citizens, namely poor people and these people can not find jobs.

I worked downtown when the immigration rally of 2006 was taking place and so many didn't know English. Many others were carrying Mexican flags and saying they were proud to be Mexican (In Spanish). My employer was asking all people who speak Spanish to work overtime to cater to them (and incidentally since I speak Spanish I was asked to stay but I had to leave work early). If they like this country so much why not learn English? the reason is because they are too uneducated to learn English since they can barely speak Spanish, or they choose not to because "Americans should learn Spanish". Do you want people like them living here and coming here ILLEGALLY? I don't.

Think!
06-18-2012, 12:58 PM
Yes Cyril we are all immigrants, however not all of us came here illegally. In addition, most of us who are descended from immigrants learned English and worked hard. My great grandparents who came here LEGALLY made sure their kids learned English and guess what? most of my great grandparents lost kids in WW2. My paternal grandmother was never an American citizen (she was Bristish)but never sponged off the system. She could have though since she was married to an American serviceman.


The fact is many of these illegals ignore our laws, refuse to learn English and either don't work or take jobs under the table. In Illinois something like 75% of all illegals are on Medicaid. The public aid departments now require caseworkers to speak Spanish before being hired because such a huge percentage are on welfare. In addition, most of these illegals are unskilled and taking unskilled jobs from American citizens, namely poor people and these people can not find jobs.

I worked downtown when the immigration rally of 2006 was taking place and so many didn't know English. Many others were carrying Mexican flags and saying they were proud to be Mexican (In Spanish). My employer was asking all people who speak Spanish to work overtime to cater to them (and incidentally since I speak Spanish I was asked to stay but I had to leave work early). If they like this country so much why not learn English? the reason is because they are too uneducated to learn English since they can barely speak Spanish, or they choose not to because "Americans should learn Spanish". Do you want people like them living here and coming here ILLEGALLY? I don't.

You have been watching reruns of Tim Burton's Mars Attacks! too many times. None of 'us' came her illegally? Really? The plundering and the killings of Native Americans over the centuries were administrated through 'legal' means? Why is it every time you respond to a post you couch your arguments within a discourse that involves WWII? Flashing your patriotic credentials I presume as a tactic to validate your points while devaluing the counter-arguments presents by others who might otherwise disagree with you? Or, even worse, accuse them of signing up with "alt handles" as you did with me when I innocently replied to your comments about a topic similar to this one that is being debated? Perhaps we should place those immigrants who refuse to learn English in internment camps like we did with the Asian Americans because they too may be a threat to our national security and our American way of life, right? In fact, after the September 11 attacks, we deported a few American citizens because we suspected that they did not look or sound 'American.' How dare these immigrants take away our jobs and at the same time refuse to speak or learn English, right? Is this your perception of them? Have you ever taken the initiative to ask these so called 'illegal immigrants' why they refuse to learn English? As long as we have educated people like you, I am hopeful we can and we will educate these uneducated 'illegal immigrants,' who refuse to learn English. And while we are at it, let's make sure no 'illegal' strippers are contracted to dance in strip clubs unless they speak 'standard English.'

Kellydancer
06-18-2012, 01:11 PM
They should learn English, simple as that, not expect us to learn Spanish (which btw I do know). We can't afford anymore unskilled immigrants, especially unskilled ILLEGAL immigrants. It is not my job to train unskilled immigrants, they don't belong here.

Here's a website with facts about this problem. I have linked one but there are several other sources.

And for your information I am not the first one to know you are Cyril. Others have said this too.

Think!
06-18-2012, 01:22 PM
And for your information I am not the first one to know you are Cyril. Others have said this too.

Administrators can compare IP addresses to whomever Cyril is, someone who I have no knowledge about. But if this is your tactic of silencing your critics, then why not just label me as an 'infidel?'

Yes, immigrants should learn English. See if companies they work for pay for them to attend Adult Education classes. I am sure many illegal immigrants would take advantage of that opportunity.

Also, you have been reported for accusing a board member of being someone who he is not. You have been warned once before not to do that, but for some odd reason you failed to heed to the advice of the moderators.

Kellydancer
06-18-2012, 01:25 PM
Whatever I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just wait for you to be banned like it always happens. Hmm, everytime Cyril gets mad he reports the other person.

It is not the responsibility of any employer to offer English classes. That's just too bizarre to even respond to.

Melonie
06-18-2012, 01:39 PM
by cutting and pasting articles instead of summarizing and making informed opinions about a subject

There is something called 'paraphrasing;' a skill that is worth developing


Sorry, this is the direct result of countless past challenges' by 'left wing' readers to my past paraphrased news posts where the underlying facts apparently did not agree with their ideology. Rather than dealing with allegations of my 'making up' those facts, I now simply snip post an original source. You can't have it both ways !!! And in this thread I even went so far as to selectively leave out a great deal of the original source material that was more political than factual in nature, in an attempt to concentrate on the factual.

However, ALL of these political aspects are both off topic and in arguable violation of the SW 'politics ban'. I sought no debate on the issue of immigration. I made no personal commentary outside the factual and the probable. I simply pointed out that a legal change has just occurred as the result of a newly issued Presidential Order which will affect US exotic dancers significantly ... and may doubly affect US dancers who are also thinking of becoming college students.



If you have a social they'll hire you

This is of course a different topic i.e. clubs hiring dancers in good faith based on 'forged documents' provided by those dancers. This is not the same thing as a club knowingly hiring 'illegal immigrant' dancers. And although there may be many 'illegal immigrant' dancers who were willing to take the risk of going the 'forged document' route to be hired, to keep things in perspective there will be 100+ times as many 'illegal immigrant' dancers who can now legally obtain 'working papers' under the new Presidential Order.

Think!
06-18-2012, 01:47 PM
Whatever I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just wait for you to be banned like it always happens. Hmm, everytime Cyril gets mad he reports the other person.

It is not the responsibility of any employer to offer English classes. That's just too bizarre to even respond to.

Listen. When I joined this board last month, and after our short back and forth argument on another thread, and your accusations of me being someone else, we agreed not to engage in any discussions until today when you began quoting me again. This is my handle on other boards as well, and if the mods/admins wish to look into it, I will be more than happy to assist them simply to alleviate your paranoia about me being someone who was banned. You break the board rules by accusing a board member of being someone else, and then expect them not to report you?

Kellydancer
06-18-2012, 01:57 PM
Oh please, I never agreed to anything with you. Your first post was about this topic and you claimed you were a "new poster". Yeah right a new poster who right away posts in this section. That is my last comment to you as I will now ignore you because I know all about your schtick to try an online argument. And I'm not the first person to accuse you of being Cyril but with you keep bringing it up it's looking more and more likely.

Melonie
06-18-2012, 01:58 PM
^^^ and, yet again, another topic of significant importance to exotic dancers / college students is apparently headed for the 'trash heap' because some aspect of that topic involves politics. Well, these days, every important legal and economic topic involves some measure of politics !!! As I clearly stated when I 'resigned' as moderator of Dollar Den, if every topic that touches on politics in any way must be avoided, no matter how significant that topic might potentially be for dancers / camgirls from an economic / business model standpoint, then I'm wasting my time here at SW.

Think!
06-18-2012, 02:00 PM
However, ALL of these political aspects are both off topic and in arguable violation of the SW 'politics ban'. I sought no debate on the issue of immigration. I made no personal commentary outside the factual and the probable. I simply pointed out that a legal change has just occurred as the result of a newly issued Presidential Order which will potentially affect US exotic dancers significantly ... and may doubly affect US dancers who are also thinking of becoming college students.


Melonie,

You post an article about a topic that is hotly contested and debated in both the political and cultural arena, and then you claim all political debates on SW are in violation of board rules and that you are simply presenting this article as factual evidence of a growing national trend. Well, I am assuming your intentions in posting this article is to involve board members in a genuine and lively debate on this topic that is certainly political in nature. But then if we cannot engage in political discussion on this board, why post an article that covers a topic such as immigration that is certainly and without a doubt political?

Melonie
06-18-2012, 02:21 PM
^^^ wrong ... I presented snippets from the article as factual evidence of a REAL LEGAL CHANGE which has ALREADY been put into effect that WILL have a direct future impact on dancers and college students. Hell, I was even careful to use a Washington Post story in an attempt to side-step allegations of a biased 'right wing' source !!!



I am assuming your intentions in posting this article is to involve board members in a genuine and lively debate on this topic

As previously mentioned, and which is quite clear if my original and subsequent posts are read absent a political axe to grind, I did NOT seek to start a debate on the top of immigration. This is not a hypothetical. This is not a maybe yes maybe no possibility depending on future vote results. This is a 'Fait Accompli' based on an already issued Presidential Order and an already announced ICE policy change ... the consequences of which dancers / college students WILL have to deal with.

Think!
06-18-2012, 04:34 PM
Oh please, I never agreed to anything with you. Your first post was about this topic and you claimed you were a "new poster". Yeah right a new poster who right away posts in this section. That is my last comment to you as I will now ignore you because I know all about your schtick to try an online argument. And I'm not the first person to accuse you of being Cyril but with you keep bringing it up it's looking more and more likely.

First, if you recall, my first post was not about immigration. It was about college admissions and preparedness. Second, board rules do not state in which discussion thread a new member should post first (besides the ones that are for dancers only). I suppose anyone who disagrees with your political point of views is summarily accused and labeled as being your imaginary arch-nemesis 'cyril.'

Now, I welcome any debate, whether they are from the right or the left of the political spectrum as long as the arguments presented are rational and logical, and void of hatred, bigotry, finger-pointing or xenophobic remarks. Now if political debates are prohibited on SW, then this thread should be closed and board members should find other venues to vent off their frustrations about the economy, or who should or should not be admitted to college instead of posting discussion threads on SW that demonizes one of the most vulnerable and unprotected groups in society, namely, immigrants.

bem401
06-18-2012, 04:54 PM
After all, aren't we all immigrants?

I am not an immigrant. I am 4th or 5th generation offspring of people who came here according to the rules, never applied for or got government assistance, and AFAIK never traveled out of the country. FWIW, other than a week in Bermuda, I've never left the country. The problem is these people are here in contradiction of the law. If I break the law, I will rightfully be held accountable, as well they should. In this case, they are being rewarded for breaking the law because Obama is pandering for Hispanic support.

On top of which, he does not have the authority to do this. It is lawless and flat-out unconstitutional. He cannot order certain laws be selectively enforced.

Think!
06-18-2012, 06:06 PM
I am not an immigrant. I am 4th or 5th generation offspring of people who came here according to the rules, never applied for or got government assistance, and AFAIK never traveled out of the country.


I was speaking figuratively, not literally. However, whether you like it or not, your forefathers and foremothers were immigrants. That you don't dispute, do you? Well, unless you are a Native American, then it is a different matter. I guess the federally funded GI Bill of Rights, which helped returning war veterans who served their country to attend school among other things, was also a mistake too? That was considered 'government assistance' too, wasn't it?

bem401
06-18-2012, 06:13 PM
I was figuratively speaking, not literally. However, whether you like it or not, your forefathers and foremothers were immigrants. That you don't dispute, do you? Well, unless you are a Native American, then it is a different matter. I guess the federally funded GI Bill of Rights, which helped returning war veterans who served their country to attend school among other things, was also a mistake too? That was considered 'government assistance' too, wasn't it?

My ancestors immigrated here LEGALLY. They followed the laws in effect at the time 125 years ago. They went through Ellis Island. They had jobs waiting for them. They received no government assistance.

What has the GI Bill of Rights got to do with illegal aliens? A bill assisting military veterans in finishing their education after having fought in WWII should not be compared to Obama refusing to follow his Oath of Office and uphold laws already in effect so he can pander to the Hispanics in this country.

Think!
06-18-2012, 08:19 PM
What has the GI Bill of Rights got to do with illegal aliens?

You tell me. You are the one who brought up the topic of "government assistance.' I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander.::)

cherryblossomsinspring
06-19-2012, 12:36 AM
Well just wanted to add there's a new bill that has just passed that will be covering undocumented illegal immigrant's college tuition. I believe its called the Dream Act. It stands for Developmental Relief and Education for Alien Minors.

Now I'm not sure how after school these educated workers can get employed without an SSN. Or how will they pay taxes once they get their degree. Or is it to send them home with an American College Education? I don't know. One thing that's sad is that the American people can't even afford to send their children to college even after paying into the system for so long. I guess we're just telling our youth to sell their asses with all of those sugar daddy advertisements you see popping up on google when a struggling student searches " college funding".

Way to go US!

So free healthcare, benefits, free housing and now free college education? What country can I go run to get all of this??

bem401
06-19-2012, 03:16 AM
You tell me. You are the one who brought up the topic of "government assistance.' I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander.::)

Now you're on to geese and gander? You keep avoiding the topic. You dragged war veterans into the debate after declaring us all immigrants. Stick to the issue at hand. These people sneaked into the country to try to take advantage of the all-too-generous nanny state that presently exists here. You are doing everything possible to avoid discussing the fact that they are here illegally and should not be rewarded for being so.

And regarding the DREAM Act.............it did not pass, but what Obama is attempting here is an end-around Congress to implement something similar for his own political gain at the expense of American citizens and legal immigrants. Prfesidents do not have the authority to act in such a manner.

cherryblossomsinspring
06-19-2012, 03:42 AM
Now you're on to geese and gander? You keep avoiding the topic. You dragged war veterans into the debate after declaring us all immigrants. Stick to the issue at hand. These people sneaked into the country to try to take advantage of the all-too-generous nanny state that presently exists here. You are doing everything possible to avoid discussing the fact that they are here illegally and should not be rewarded for being so.

And regarding the DREAM Act.............it did not pass, but what Obama is attempting here is an end-around Congress to implement something similar for his own political gain at the expense of American citizens and legal immigrants. Prfesidents do not have the authority to act in such a manner.

IT DID: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/obama-basically-passed-the-dream-act-himself.html

Presidents all do whatever they feel they need to for a re-election or to keep themselves in office working for who ever funds their latest campaign. Another move for some extra votes. Nothing new.

bem401
06-19-2012, 04:13 AM
^^^ The Dream Act failed in Congress. Obama is now trying to force something similar (but not identical) on Americans in violation of a President's Constitutional authority.

Melonie
06-19-2012, 04:32 AM
Actually, while proposed multiple times by the US Senate, the DREAM act was voted down repeatedly by the US House of Representatives.

However, via Presidential Order, court ruling, announced federal agency enforcement ( or non-enforcement ) policies etc., the following de-facto situation appears to exist ...

Illegal aliens are entitled to 'free' emergency medical treatment
Illegal aliens are entitled to discount state college tuition rates
Illegal alien parents of a US born baby are entitled to food stamps / medicaid etc. as well as exempt from deportation
Illegal aliens age 18 to 30 who can show they have resided in the USA for 5 years plus meet other criteria are now eligible to work legally and are exempt from deportation

michele11
06-19-2012, 08:23 AM
^That's fucken sickening since I pay 400 a month for heath insurance for me and my daughter and it doesn't even cover everything 100%!

Sophia_Starina
06-19-2012, 09:14 AM
^That's fucken sickening since I pay 400 a month for heath insurance for me and my daughter and it doesn't even cover everything 100%!

Everyone can get emergency medical treatment.

The thing is that some people don't pay. Illegal or otherwise.


In my humble opinion, comprehensive medical care should be a right regardless of whether a person is wealthy or poor. So many countries have this provision. It seems damn near barbaric that, in the USA, healthcare is a privilege.

Eric Stoner
06-19-2012, 09:38 AM
No, you should not ignore 'stuff' you disagree with at all. But if your mission is to incite xenophobia by cutting and pasting articles instead of summarizing and making informed opinions about a subject, then it is problematic for many reasons. Melonie has a habit of cutting and pasting articles from other sources and presenting them as her opinions. Sometimes when I read her posts, I am not sure if they are her opinions, or if they are merely quotes from other sources. There is something called 'paraphrasing;' a skill that is worth developing and acquiring if your intention is to engage in a debate over a topic that you are passionate about. But from what I gather, Melonie is less interested in a debate than she is about presenting a one-sided view of an issue. Terms such as "immigrants" used as the heading of an article or a post are intended to exploit deep-seated fears and insecurities of people especially during an economic recession. Frankly, I find it morally and ethically repugnant. After all, aren't we all immigrants?

This is incredibly off base and unfair. Melonie makes it clear which are her opinions and what she has posted just to provide food for thought.

I am NOT an immigrant. I was born here. My father was born here. His ancestors immigrated LEGALLY. My mother and her family immigrated LEGALLY.

One of many problems with this latest Obama program is how to tell who is here through " no fault of their own " . There is no way to tell or verify who "qualifies" for this amnesty program. We have millions of phony I.D.'s being used now. Now we will see thousands of phony GED's and other stuff. Just how are we going to tell which is genuine ? How many more DHS workers are going to have to be hired to check out the bona fides of those seeking amnesty ?

michele11
06-19-2012, 10:12 AM
Everyone can get emergency medical treatment.

The thing is that some people don't pay. Illegal or otherwise.


In my humble opinion, comprehensive medical care should be a right regardless of whether a person is wealthy or poor. So many countries have this provision. It seems damn near barbaric that, in the USA, healthcare is a privilege.

They're getting it FREE and I agree with your other statement very poor countries have socialized medicine.

Think!
06-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Now you're on to geese and gander? You keep avoiding the topic. You dragged war veterans into the debate after declaring us all immigrants. Stick to the issue at hand. These people sneaked into the country to try to take advantage of the all-too-generous nanny state that presently exists here. You are doing everything possible to avoid discussing the fact that they are here illegally and should not be rewarded for being so.

Not at all. "Dragged?" Hardly. My point was quite clear. You made it as if 'government assistance' is bad in all cases and under all circumstances. I simply pointed out that it worked quite well for War Veterans as it should have. Note that I italicized the word 'government.' Most of you folks bash the government for being too big, inefficient, and unfair. And some from within the Tea Party take it even farther and accuse the government of being socialist. This is simply not true. Terms such as 'nanny state,' 'big government,' and 'illegal' are politically loaded terms that are deliberately used to draw attention away from the main causes of the economic downturn.

Think!
06-19-2012, 10:20 AM
This is incredibly off base and unfair. Melonie makes it clear which are her opinions and what she has posted just to provide food for thought.

I beg to differ. I don't consider being bombarded by one article after another, mostly from sources such as the Washington Post, as 'food for thought.'

Sophia_Starina
06-19-2012, 10:20 AM
They're getting it FREE and I agree with your other statement very poor countries have socialized medicine.

Yes.


and.... No.


"DREAM Act students and their families are not immediately eligible for Supplemental Security Income, food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid (other than emergency care), and numerous other federal benefit programs."
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/dispelling-dream-act-myths

So technically, unless it is some emergency, free medical care isn't a given. Illegal immigrants have been utilizing that particular opportunity for a while. So in reality, it isn't much of a difference.


I just wanted to clarify that.

bem401
06-19-2012, 10:24 AM
They're getting it FREE and I agree with your other statement very poor countries have socialized medicine.

Those "very poor countries" you refer to are supplying inferior healthcare to that provided in America. Government involvement in healthcare will only decrease its quality. Outside of national defense, name one thing the federal government does very well. Do you really want your health care system run the way the DMV or school departments are? I would think not.

michele11
06-19-2012, 10:33 AM
Yes.


and.... No.


"DREAM Act students and their families are not immediately eligible for Supplemental Security Income, food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid (other than emergency care), and numerous other federal benefit programs."


So technically, unless it is some emergency, free medical care isn't a given. Illegal immigrants have been utilizing that particular opportunity for a while. So in reality, it isn't much of a difference.


I just wanted to clarify that.

Oh melonie stated it was free.......

Think!
06-19-2012, 10:34 AM
Those "very poor countries" you refer to are supplying inferior healthcare to that provided in America. Government involvement in healthcare will only decrease its quality. Outside of national defense, name one thing the federal government does very well. Do you really want your health care system run the way the DMV or school departments are? I would think not.


Seriously? Cuba has had a long history of providing high quality healthcare. But you are right. Let's keep healthcare out of the hands of big government. God forbid we offer the forty million American who don't have health insurance, some that include dancers, healthcare coverage. That would be socialized medicine! And we don't want that now, do we? :O

Sophia_Starina
06-19-2012, 10:35 AM
Those "very poor countries" you refer to are supplying inferior healthcare to that provided in America. Government involvement in healthcare will only decrease its quality. Outside of national defense, name one thing the federal government does very well. Do you really want your health care system run the way the DMV or school departments are? I would think not.

Give me a break, bem401.

I'm not even going to address the fallacy of government + medicine = DMV... or something along those lines.

Police, Fire, Library, Public Education entities do a pretty effective job. The DMV is a pain in the ass but it's better to deal with them on occasion than forego getting a license or ID.

Just like in medicine/healthcare... it's probably better to get treated for some awful injury than just "walk it off". Something is better than nothing. And NOTHING is what far too many Americans have. I'm talking about bonafide, legal, working class AMERICANS. That is Bull$#!%.


Here is a reddit thread discussing government run healthcare.... please, take a peek. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jm7a7/to_all_nonamericans_how_is_universal_healthcare/

bem401
06-19-2012, 10:36 AM
I beg to differ. I don't consider being bombarded by one article after another, mostly from sources such as the Washington Post, as 'food for thought.'

Well at least we agree the Washington Post is hardly "food for thought", though seem to generally sing along with them.

Melonie
06-19-2012, 10:39 AM
Oh melonie stated it was free.......


more factual clarifications -

The implication of my (quote) 'free' ( unquote ) reference is that it is impossible for a hospital / clinic to collect an unpaid bill for medical treatment from an illegal alien who gives a false name, false address etc. Thus the medical care is 'free' to said illegal alien. It is not free to Americans who must subsidize these unpaid medical expenses via paying higher than necessary hospital / clinic bills for their own treatment, via paying higher than necessary health insurance premium costs etc.



"DREAM Act students and their families are not immediately eligible for Supplemental Security Income, food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid (other than emergency care), and numerous other federal benefit programs."

They are if they become parents of a newborn child who is automatically a US citizen !

bem401
06-19-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm not even going to address the fallacy of government + medicine = DMV... or something along those lines.

Police, Fire, Library, Public Education entities do a pretty effective job.

Do you really want to cite the efficient operations of police, fire, and education systems as good reason to let the government control healthcare? I teach public school. The system is an unmitigated disaster for the students. What about the mail service? Look how efficiently that runs. The government does nothing as well as private industry. Nothing (national defense excluded obviously).

Sophia_Starina
06-19-2012, 10:45 AM
Seriously? Cuba has had a long history of providing high quality healthcare. But you are right. Let's keep healthcare out of the hands of big government. God forbid we offer the forty million American who don't have health insurance, some that include dancers, healthcare coverage. That would be socialized medicine! And we don't want that now, do we? :O

Fucking aye! Pinko Communist CUBA! Arrrrrrgh! (sarcasm alert) j/k j/k j/k

They are actually training AMERICAN medical students.... for.... FREE!

Imagine that.

As long as the student is fluent in Spanish, qualifies for the requirements, and agrees to work with the poor (in their native country or elsewhere for a set period of time)... they get a full scholarship to the med school. After the student-turned-doctor pays their dues working with the poor or pro-bono, they are free to pursue what ever other path they choose.

I feel that bem401's assertion that "other countries supply inferior healthcare" is ridiculous.

There has been plenty of discussion regarding the nurse/doctor shortage in recent threads. I wonder why that could be the case? Maybe because we don't have a program similar to (I still giggle every time I say it) CUBA???


I urge bem401 to beware... your general practitioner may very well have studied medicine through one of these programs. Just keep that in mind.

jekka
06-19-2012, 10:50 AM
How can we compare Cuba with approx. 11 million population with our 300 + million population. Add in a sprawling and inefficient government and it would be a complete disaster. What's wrong with allowing the states to handle public option healthcare?