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rickdugan
08-24-2012, 06:38 AM
An on again, off again semi-fave has been hitting me up for the last couple of months to take her to Vegas for her birthday, which is coming up fairly soon.

Now in setting the table here, the first obvious question is whether this is a scam designed to keep me coming to see her at the club. Anything is possible I suppose, but I don't think so. She is a young local gal who is not prone to running games or lying to close a sale. I've been dealing with her for a couple of years and she has always been a straight shooter. I really think that she is tired of the local scene and wants to check out Vegas, but lacks the means to do so. She has been hitting me up for this because she knows that I travel a lot and have both the cash and scheduling flexibility to take her if I want to, which is obviously not the case with a lot of guys for a variety of reasons (no cover to get away from the family, 9 to 5 jobs with limited vacation time, cash restrictions, etc.). Net-net, I believe that she is serious, or at least I believe that SHE believes that she is serious.

The problem is that I have no OTC history with her. We have danced around the edges a few times, but she hasn't been willing to do it to date. In fact, based on conversations that I've had with her over time, I believe that she feels badly simply for dancing and struggles to get herself to go to work. She has tried to quit a couple of times to work at local restaurants, until the money sucked her back in each time, and now she is getting baked just to keep herself going.

So, in a nutshell, do I think that she is serious? Yes I do. But do I think that she will actually be able to go through with it when the time comes? I really don't know. I've already communicated my expectations, which she seems fine with, but when the rubber meets the road I have no idea what will happen. I am not eager to get stuck with two unused plane tickets or to have to go through the hassle of booking and then canceling hotels, many of which would also whack me with surcharges if she pulled a last minute no-show. I'm also not thrilled about the thought that we might make it out there just to have her become skittish.

Now why am I even considering this? Because she is fun to hang with and hot as hell. LOL. If all cylinders fired right, I have no doubt that the trip would be an utter blast.

Right now I'm leaning away from doing this unless we breach the OTC barrier before then. In fact, this may just be the lever needed to finally coax her out of the club. ;) I have told her that I would love nothing more, but hat I'm struggling with the thought of laying out that kind of capital for a trip with someone with whom I have no history, so we shall see. IMHO if she is indeed serious, she will find a way to overcome her internal misgivings enough to participate in at least one OTC encounter before then.

Asian Sensation
08-24-2012, 07:11 AM
I suppose my question would be how disappointed would you be if you went on the trip and she was skittish? That is to say, you go out there and have a blast because she's fun to hang with but keep things purely PG?

From reading your other posts, it looks like you have definitely dropped thousands during a single weekend of clubbing before. So this LV trip would be double the cost of a local NYC weekend. The cancellation fees for hotels are reasonable, especially with 24 hours notice.

I'm guessing that you end up going.

richdummy
08-24-2012, 09:29 AM
You have to look out for you. She has no history of keeping her commitments so don't make any for her. :) Think like a poker hand for example - she keeps folding, and your about to bluff her even though she's never bet a hand. Betting large doesn't make people want to ante up! it makes them want to fold!. She's knows you got it (the money,time,schedule) she can come play when she is ready.

rickdugan
08-24-2012, 10:21 AM
Not knowing what exactly your expectations are, I'd say that if it's something she's been unwilling to do before... If you've been spending good money... I don't see a trip to Vegas (which, even out of someone's general financial means... is NOT that pricey a trip.) being enough to push her over the edge into willing... even if she thinks she might be.
I think your idea that she BELIEVES this is what she wants but is likely to back out at the last minute is spot on.

Well, I'll say that my expectations are not PG in nature. I also think that this trip could actually become pricey, particularly when I add up not only airfare, other transportation, lodging (2 rooms of course in a nice place), and meals, but also factor in entertainment. She wants to check out some of the strip clubs in Vegas and I would not be surprised if she also wants to visit some of the higher end night clubs and even see one of the more popular shows, all of which will no doubt add a decent chunk of change onto the total tab.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about how things would likely go when theory turns into reality. If something happens to change my mind about where her head is at, then I might reconsider, but as it currently stands I see a lot more downside than upside in doing this.

rockie
08-24-2012, 01:00 PM
That's too big a leap of faith on your part without a local test run! I'm only saying what you already know.

yoda57us
08-24-2012, 01:17 PM
Last fall I had a very similar situation. An ITC fav that I've known for years but never done anything even platonic OTC with wanted to go to Cancun with me during my off time in January. We talked about it, even looked at resorts together and talked about travel dates etc. My one sticking point was that I wanted to see her OTC a time or two before we went off to spend a week together. She agreed but said she didn't want my money, just a fun time with a guy that she liked and trusted. Now, she's a very sweet lady but, same as you, I had my doubts as to whether she would be able to go through with it or not. She's beautiful and she knows that I do P4P. She could have gotten thousands out of me over the last five years if she wanted it and she knows it. As flattered as I was something kept telling me that she wants to do it but she wouldn't be able to go through with it.

Well, fall and winter came and went. We never did get together OTC as plans fell through several times. We also didn't go away together. She took most of the winter off from dancing but is back at a new club now and we are toying with the idea of trying again...

I wouldn't agree to it until she actually has an OTC date or two with you rick. I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't think it's a scam but I also don't think she's sure if she can go through with it or not. Good luck...

iDontGoPrivate
08-24-2012, 02:41 PM
Right now I'm leaning away from doing this unless we breach the OTC barrier before then.

I hope you follow your own good advice.

rickdugan
08-25-2012, 10:29 AM
I hope you follow your own good advice.

Well, this ain't exactly my first time at the rodeo, but I do appreciate the concern. ;)

threlayer
08-31-2012, 08:37 PM
You need to do OTC for another reason - to see how you two get along together. Tell her that and see what happens.

JoeUnCool
09-24-2012, 05:36 AM
I'm interested to hear what happened here.

Personally, I'm getting pushed to take my fb to Vegas. In fact, she just asked about this again.

JoeUnCool
09-24-2012, 05:37 AM
I'm interested to hear what happened here.

Personally, I'm getting pushed to take my fb to Vegas. In fact, she just asked about this again.

rickdugan
09-24-2012, 08:56 AM
I'm interested to hear what happened here.

Nothing really. I was temporarily intrigued by the notion simply because she is hot and a lot of fun, but I'm not really interested in burning time and brain matter trying to figure this girl out. I have enough good club hookups that, if I really wanted to go on a trip with a stripper companion, there are already a couple that I deal with who would probably say yes.

rickdugan
10-17-2012, 01:31 PM
I wouldn't agree to it until she actually has an OTC date or two with you rick. I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't think it's a scam but I also don't think she's sure if she can go through with it or not. Good luck...

It seems that she was far more serious than I gave her credit for. ;) In fact, we've met up several times since I last posted and our OTC meetings have ranked among the best that I've ever had.

I'm really starting to believe that taking her out there would be a lot of fun...:thinking:

rickdugan
10-20-2012, 03:53 PM
For a number of reasons, including some that have been discussed here and others that have not, I have become absolutely convinced that she is serious. We finalized the dates last night and today I purchased the tickets. :D

We shall see. A few weeks can be a lifetime away in these types of situations. But if she does have a change of heart then at least I am only out the cost of the tickets, which do have some salvage value if things go sideways.

I almost cannot believe that I am doing this, but there it is.

Kessler
10-22-2012, 10:59 AM
Holy smokes - good luck to you, Rick. May the next few weeks pass by swiftly and without change. Could be an epic weekend, sir.

rickdugan
10-27-2012, 04:37 PM
Could be an epic weekend, sir.

More like an epic week, but in principle I agree. :)

All Good Things
10-28-2012, 11:33 PM
Rick, a few words of caution for you. I'm sure everything will probably go swimmingly, but there's value in planning for the worse case.

I've taken dancers on trips all over the world for many years and it's surprising how much fun controlled chaos can actually be. And the smart, crazy, fun ones from SW, my home club and one Baltimore club in particular have been among the best. But please be aware that you are at substantially greater risk when taking a dancer with you on the road, so here are a few suggestions to make your trip potentially safer for you.

When you are OTC in your own city, or if you meet a dancer in any given city, you can separate yourself if things take a turn for the worse at the dancer's hands. You cannot do this if she is traveling with you. As you know, it sometimes takes a great deal of time to learn what any given dancer is really thinking and unfortunately there exist the (thankfully rare) cases when a dancer will confuse the acceptable house-of-mirrors deception in the club (where we all know the rules and accept them) with an open license to rip you off or try to fuck you over or do serious damage to you in the real world for the same purpose, e.g. to use deception or fraud or lies to get even more money out of you. So in the spirit of preventing a disaster, here are some suggestions.

Always, always, always make sure that you are seen together by other people, by cameras and by people in authority (police, security guards and transit police). Make a point of meeting the club manager and having the CR cameras record everything that happens in the club. Make sure housekeeping staff see how well you get along for the entire period, that hotel managers know where you are and what you're doing, and that everything, EVERYTHING is recorded by cameras. There are even hidden cameras in the higher-end hotel suites, and of course all of the hallways and casinos and public areas, although many people do not know this. I don't need to tell you that those cameras -- especially in the hotel suite -- can be a life-saver if you ever need the hotel to rewind and play them back.

This runs counter to what you might think is a sound strategy when cavorting around Vegas or any city with a woman who you flew in with you, which is to be discreet and not visible, but since the woman's motives are not always clear to you, especially when the woman is a dancer who works in a job that requires deception and manipulation (not a criticism, but a reality), and you are married which is the case for you, which makes you vulnerable on a whole other level, it's an unfortunate fact that you need to protect yourself until those motives become clear on their own.

Sorry to cast a shadow on this for you, but these precautions can only protect you. Good luck and I hope you both have a great time!

rickdugan
10-29-2012, 08:32 AM
Wow AGT. I do appreciate your perspectives, but in this particular case I'm not overly concerned about a con or scam. This is simply a young local dancer who doesn't have much travel experience, or the resources to pay for the trip, and is willing to spend time with me in order to explore Vegas. I've been dealing with her for two years now, most recently including a string of p4p OTC meetups, and she has always been a (relatively) straight shooter. Now she certainly had enough skills to coax me into taking her to Vegas, but I just don't see her trying to rob me or running some type of sophisticated extortion scam. If I had any reservations whatsoever, I would never have agreed to take her in the first place.

In all candor, I think that your particular gig makes you a little more prone to being targeted in this manner. I'll never be the guy taking up residence for the evening in the CR of the nicest club in town, nor will I be the guy using Benjamins as stage tips, nor will any dancer ever view me as a potential source of material assistance. I am in no way criticizing what you do - all power to you. But with your elevated levels of spending, along with your deeper involvement in the lives of some of these dancers, increased drama and, yes, exposure to games and claims, are almost inevitable.

I keep my gig simple with relatively controlled spending in mid-tier clubs. The girls that work in these clubs are usually a little "earthier" in nature and often have as many reasons as I do to keep their mouths shut about extracurricular p4p activities (family and community exposures, immigration issues, past legal troubles, potential grief from other dancers if OTC was exposed, etc.). They are also not accustomed to seeing any one customer as a potential gold mine. And if I am spending enough on any one girl to be a serious % of her income, it is because we have an established OTC p4p relationship with several hotel excursions already under our belts, which (1) most of them would never want known (for the reasons already discussed); and (2) makes it tougher for them to make false claims later on.

All Good Things
10-29-2012, 09:05 AM
^Yes, agreed, but we all buy insurance for extremely rare events that we never expect to actually happen.

She's already surprised you once to the upside just in the course of this thread -- in your original post you describe her avoiding P4P for two years and your being unsure she would ever do it, and then more recently you've described a decidedly different and new reality with her. This is a good thing from your perspective, but it is a surprise.

Anyway, I'm sure you have a good handle on this situation and in all likelihood will be fine and have a great time. I'm just encouraging you to consider that the instinct to keep a low profile is actually not the best approach on the road. That is a bit counterintuitive, and hence worth mentioning.

rickdugan
10-29-2012, 09:38 AM
AGT, fair enough on the cautionary note and I agree with you in principle that one must be sensitive to the potential motivational forces at play. I source a fair amount of p4p from clubs each year and my own exposures do indeed always sit at the back of my mind. I also agree that one must always analyze surprises of this type.

In order to provide a little more context, the possibility of the Vegas trip was the final catalyst for her change of heart. A few months back, after she first brought it up, I let her know that I would love to plan a trip like that, but that I just didn't have enough history with her to make that type of commitment. I also let her know, kindly of course, that I really didn't have an interest in planning that type of a trip with a girl if my bed was going to be cold each night. Thereafter, each time she started pushing the idea of the Vegas trip, I gently teased her for being all talk and challenged her to prove me wrong. Finally, she did. :)

rickdugan
11-06-2012, 05:26 PM
For a number of reasons, including some that have been discussed here and others that have not, I have become absolutely convinced that she is serious. We finalized the dates last night and today I purchased the tickets. :D

We shall see. A few weeks can be a lifetime away in these types of situations. But if she does have a change of heart then at least I am only out the cost of the tickets, which do have some salvage value if things go sideways.

I almost cannot believe that I am doing this, but there it is.

As an update to this post of 10-20-12, for the past week I have had nothing but radio silence re: this trip, despite a couple of attempts to confirm that we are still set. I was considering booking prepayed rooms in order to take advantage of better hotel rates, but I don't think that it would be wise at this moment.

She knows that the plane tickets have been purchased and previously seemed to be excited, but it seems that the winds have shifted. Now in all fairness, this last week was a junk week as I had to relocate my family and was not able to visit the club, but she has texted me on other matters, yet goes silent when I broach this. Needless to say, I am starting to have my doubts now.

The irritating part of this is not that I purchased the plane tickets, some of which I can salvage anyway, but that I am sitting here in limbo with only a week to go. It is fine if she changed her mind, but this non-response stuff is a pain in the ass. She might have the freedom to move about as she sees fit, but this type of trip takes a fair amount of advance planning on my part and I would like to avoid wasting any more time if it is going to be for naught.

I don't think that she has been stringing me along to this point as she has had no reason to. I have been visiting her more, but most of my spending on her has been OTC, which I would have eagerly done irrespective of whether she ever asked for a trip. What I do believe is that she is now having second thoughts, so she is holding me in stasis while she makes up her mind.

Fuck. I would rather have to unravel one of the Great Mysteries than to try to figure out what goes on in the minds of some these girls. ;)

rockie
11-06-2012, 06:42 PM
RD: So "Sandy" is not the waitress you've been seeing, but was a mother of a storm! Sorry for the impact of the storm to your family and our NY/NJ neighbors.

Kessler
11-07-2012, 12:04 PM
Rick, sounds like you're exactly right - it's either a) she's unsure herself or b) she doesn't like confrontation and is putting off telling you the trip's off. Feels more of the former than the latter if she's been texting you back on other matters. Limbo sucks since making plans takes time and effort, both of which could be used doing other things.

If it helps, last I checked Vegas rooms via Expedia, their bookings came with "free cancellation". Not sure how high-roller you get, but they had most hotel/room options, including suites.

Good luck!

rickdugan
11-07-2012, 01:27 PM
And last night I received a firm confirmation that the trip is indeed still on - LOL. In fact, what happened last night thoroughly convinced me that she is still quite interested in going. ;)

In my eagerness today, I even pre-payed for the room. :P In fact, I got a great deal on a centrally located 4-star hotel.

My decisions to book the tickets and room the way I did are going to prove to be either very wise or extremely dumb. We shall see. I got great flights at a reasonable cost and a very nice hotel on the cheap, but very little of the money already spent is recoverable if she bails.

Fuck it - in my mind it is worth the risk. I am not getting any younger and opportunities to party for several days with a fun and ridiculously hot young woman don't exactly fall off of trees. I have no doubt that I will have a blast if I get her out there and, if not, then at least I took the shot. :)

Djoser
11-07-2012, 01:34 PM
Glad to hear it looks like a go, Rick.

Even if she bails last minute, you might still have some fun in Vegas with that pre-paid room. There's a lot of hot, friendly girls in Vegas from what I hear. }:D

Even after working 13 years in the business, I am still often surprised at how unpredictable some of the women in it can be. Often disappointing, but once in a while the surprise can be very pleasant indeed lol. Best policy is always to expect the unexpected, never count on anything until it's in your lap, and roll with it. But I suspect I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. :D

Kessler
11-08-2012, 12:28 PM
Best policy is always to expect the unexpected, never count on anything until it's in your lap, and roll with it.

Great quote! And yes, good luck, Rick! Glad to hear it's on and all good!!

yoda57us
11-08-2012, 06:22 PM
Seriously, if she bails just go out there anyway and see what happens!

rickdugan
11-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Even if she bails last minute, you might still have some fun in Vegas with that pre-paid room. There's a lot of hot, friendly girls in Vegas from what I hear. }:D


Seriously, if she bails just go out there anyway and see what happens!

LOL. I hear you both and appreciate the sentiments, but I've been to Vegas several times and I don't really have an interest in another solo trip out there. The whole town is really just one big, high octane hustle, and that most definitely includes the SCs in my historical experiences. In fact, the last time I was out there, which was about 4 years ago, I didn't really bother to visit the clubs at all.

The lure for me in all of this was in taking someone else out there and enjoying my time with her. Taking pleasure in her enjoyment of the experience is definitely part of that as I know my way around Vegas fairly well and have no doubt that I could steer her towards a lot of cool stuff. And yes, I was also looking forward to visiting the clubs with her.

Anyway, we shall see. I received a text today that leads me to believe that all lights are still green, but the real test will be if she shows up at the appointed time and spot next week.

rickdugan
11-09-2012, 10:22 PM
Yup, it has officially fallen apart. I'll spare readers the details of the convoluted explanation, but along with the trip it looks like my OTC hookup has unraveled as well. In fact, issues that surfaced around this may force me to avoid this club for a while altogether.

59
11-10-2012, 06:48 AM
Yup, it has officially fallen apart. I'll spare readers the details of the convoluted explanation, but along with the trip it looks like my OTC hookup has unraveled as well. In fact, issues that surfaced around this may force me to avoid this club for a while altogether.


That sucks. At the 11th+ hour. What a rollercoaster.

This would be my luck if I ever went down this path.

At least Vegas should get your mind off the turn of events. Move forward, don't look back.

rickdugan
11-13-2012, 07:36 AM
I decided not to go. I have too much going on with my business right now to be hanging out solo in Vegas. I would have bitten the bullet for the chance to take her out there, but I'm not going to hang out in Vegas for several days by myself. Vegas had been her choice, not mine. If I was going to take a solo vacation, I could think of many places that I'd rather visit than the home of false promises and broken dreams.

In any event, in an interesting turn of events, it seems that my OTC hookup with her is still solid. It took a promise of a trip to finally get her out OTC, but now she is willing to continue seeing me OTC even though she bailed on the vacation. As much as I would like to believe that it is my prowess in bed that keeps this alive - LOL - a more reasonable explanation is that she likes the money and has found a way to justify it in her own mind.

She continues to be extremely sensitive about her reputation at the club. After all, she (in her own words) is not a whore and does not want the club management to view her in the same light as the girls who are known to be such. I, of course, put on my most understanding look, nod and assure her that I understand completely. ;) In fact, she bailed on the trip because, supposedly, club management got wind of something going on. I think that I was played a little bit, but I really don't care as the OTC was really one of my primary purposes in dealing with her and meetups continue to happen.

Why is everything so complicated in this little local club? LOL. I have now slept with 3 dancers in this place and converting each one into an OTC connection took a lot of time and effort, including several false starts. I travel all over the place and engage in p4p activities in several cities in any given year, often after only meeting the girls once or twice, but in this place making what I call a "friend" is like a subtle courtship ritual. Too funny.

yoda57us
11-13-2012, 08:00 AM
Why is everything so complicated in this little local club? LOL. I have now slept with 3 dancers in this place and converting each one into an OTC connection took a lot of time and effort, including several false starts. I travel all over the place and engage in p4p activities in several cities in any given year, often after only meeting the girls once or twice, but in this place making what I call a "friend" is like a subtle courtship ritual. Too funny.

I'm wondering if your status as a local regular makes it harder for you to get OTC in a club full of dancers who seem to be very reluctant, or at least selective, about who they do OTC with. When you are on the road the ladies who see you OTC know that you won't be a regular visitor to the club. This also lessens the chance of you becoming a topic of conversation among the dancers-which, in turn, lessons the chance of discussion about outside activities coming up among the dancers. I would be curious as to whether guys from out of town have better luck with OTC than local guys.

In my experience there are most definitely girls who, while they may see some guy OTC, work very hard to maintain the rep inside the club of not being an OTC girl. Now, it may seem silly from the outside looking in but reputation is everything for some of these girls not only with other dancers but with management as well. Of course, all of these girls trying so hard to hide their activities from other dancers and management are, very often, not fooling anyone.

Any way, just a thought from a guy who doesn't really go looking for OTC but has certainly tripped over it a few times and taken full advantage...

rickdugan
11-13-2012, 09:31 AM
Yoda, I agree with a lot of your thinking on this. I definitely concur with your assessment that, in many of my travel locations, being an out of town businessman helps a great deal in greasing the skids.

In this particular place, however, I'm not really sure that this is the issue. Culturally, this particular club falls more in line with some of the locals clubs I have visited in places like Mobile, Little Rock and Topeka, among others, where the girls play things very close to the vest and where casual OTC is not really an option. It is a small clean club, yet with good earning potential, and with an owner that gives a shit, all of which has led to a lot of girls gravitating to this club from other areas. A small, out of the way club like this simply should not have a roster so rich in beautiful women, but it does and many of these girls have been dancing in this club for years.

Now I do not want to overly romanticize this club, but with all of the time I have spent there and with all of my interactions with multiple dancers, I have trouble believing that any of the girls currently in its roster are prone to jump for casual p4p. I can say this with certainty of the Russians, who not only travel to and from work together but police themselves and know each others' business. But even the American girls, each of whom is a long time veteran of the club, are careful and also quick to police what they view as unacceptable behavior. Shit, even the bartenders have been known to squeal to the owner if they hear something unsavory being planned.

Also, I hate to say it this way, but IME the girls in this club are of a higher caliber than most that are prone to quickly jump for OTC. In this club, there is barely a girl below an 8 and many would qualify as a 9+, due both to their beauty and elegance, and these girls generally know their value. Look at what it took for me to get both Anne (big nights out in Manhattan) and Young Lithe Hottie (a planned vacation to Vegas) OTC - LOL. Shit, even Sexy Italian, who is arguably the least attractive of the 3, took several months to land and, I suspect, finally took the plunge only because customer spending was tanking around that time and she needed the cash badly (she is a single mom).

It cuts both ways I suppose. I have been sleeping with dancers who are more beautiful, and generally brighter, than any that I have played with before, but it has come with additional costs and complications.

yoda57us
11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
It sounds like we pretty much agree on this rick. I know a couple of clubs that are very much the way you describe this one to be. In this day and age, over time, any club that affords a girl a chance to make good money without having to resort to extras or OTC will attract a loyal core group of attractive dancers. I don't see you as over-romanticizing it at all. To be honest, I really prefer this sort of environment myself.

Just as with ITC extras, I agree that easy OTC is more likely with less attractive dancers. It's simply harder for them to make money in the club and the need to earn lowers their boundaries. That being said, clearly OTC is never off the table with some of the more attractive girls-they just set their tipping point a bit higher. I think that has as much to do with trust and the need for discretion as it does with dollar amounts.

yoda57us
11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
It sounds like we pretty much agree on this rick. I know a couple of clubs that are very much the way you describe this one to be. In this day and age, over time, any club that affords a girl a chance to make good money without having to resort to extras or OTC will attract a loyal core group of attractive dancers. I don't see you as over-romanticizing it at all. To be honest, I really prefer this sort of environment myself.

Just as with ITC extras, I agree that easy OTC is more likely with less attractive dancers. It's simply harder for them to make money in the club and the need to earn lowers their boundaries. That being said, clearly OTC is never off the table with some of the more attractive girls-they just set their tipping point a bit higher. I think that has as much to do with trust and the need for discretion as it does with dollar amounts.