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ManyRoses
10-01-2012, 12:18 PM
I agree with you, SaraTime - Porn isn't going anywhere, it's just a great platform to appeal to the extreme rights.

Fighting porn just builds up Romney's image as a man "for the family", wholesome, traditional, etc etc etc. That's an image that he wants to have because it helps him gain voters who see themselves that way.

Should Romney get in, I'm guessing that he will have much higher priorities than following through on these things - the economy is number one priority right now, not porn. And he would have to be seriously stupid to do something that would put thousands of women out of work.

Not to mention that (as SOPA brought to light) a lot of these law suggestions are not that practical....

The porn filter, for example - I can see the possibility of computers being produced with a filter that can be turned on and off (like standard child filters on web browsers)...but attempting to make all computers unable to view porn? How would that even WORK? And you would have to find a way to prevent imports as well...I just don't see it happening. He would basically have to make porn illegal in order to get away with that kind of restriction, and even then, piracy is illegal, but how many of us still stream and download movies, tv shows and music?

Trying to enforce obscenity laws? Give me a break. Courts just don't have the time or inclination - in a country where the budget is all kinds of screwed up and the economy is in a bad state, who would bother spending the money that it would take to monitor and prosecute everyone who does anything obscene?

I just don't think that this is going to be a major issue - it's just a way to garner votes.

ManyRoses
10-01-2012, 12:23 PM
Oh - and in the interest of disclosure, I don't consider myself republican or democrat. For one thing, I am not in the US, and can't vote.....

But I also strongly agree/disagree with policies on both sides - I am clearly democrat when it comes to porn, abortion, gay marriage....but then when it comes to the child support debate, I find myself more republican. I don't agree with any one party on all major issues.

But Sarah - please don't feel like you should have to hide your political opinions!!! I think that we can still discuss some aspects of politics as it relates to camming without all having to be on the same side - I'd be really disappointed if we couldn't!

Zell Axis
10-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Okay, if I can put my two cents in, a porn filter is not that big of a deal. However, it's also unlikely. Congress has to agree to this law, they'll probably put up a good show of trying to pass it (tops) and end up not passing it.
However, let's say it does get passed. People are not going to be stopped by a porn filter. Chances are that the filter will be just some extra crud on your computer and anyone can figure out how to disable it by simply uninstalling it. Most people are tech savvy enough that this won't stop them. The people that aren't are usually good at googling stuff so they can find out from people who do know how to disable it.
However, let's say, somehow, it's a hardware thing (not sure how that would work), what guy that pays hundreds of dollars on cam girls is going to be stopped by a computer chip? He can either a. get it removed by himself or a friend, or b. get it removed by a professional. Granted he'd have to ask that they be discreet, but I'm pretty sure that online porn is the single most popular thing on the net, whether it be free or not. I think the only online competitor to porn is pictures of cute animals in adorable poses and situations. Seriously, people love that.

Even so, I think the chances of this working through is low. Especially since Romney is so anti-women's rights. Those guys are throwing huge fits over his wanting to mess with pro-choicers.

Granted I got a little political, but I think it's valid.

CalliopeQuinn
10-01-2012, 04:09 PM
I agree with you guys that porn isn't going anywhere...but the medium of it may change and has in the past. I mean, imagine trying to explain camming to Hugh Hefner in 1965. He'd be saying print porn will never go away...and he's right it hasn't, but it doesn't mean it's the powerhouse it once was. I think camming is kind of a "Gold Rush" industry. As more and more girls go indy, because the money is just out there to be made, the big box companies will have more reason to try to corner the market. So In a sense, I think camming will always be around, but the big porn producers, who are losing out on more and more profit because of it, will eventually find a reason to shut down the indy girls and small boxes so they can once again control the industry...and the easiest likely way to do it will be obscenity laws.

I don't think either presidential candidate is better or worse on the porn front, and obscenity laws are more likely to be imposed and/or enforced at a more local level. Personally, I am more conflicted about my vote this year than ever before, but it has nothing to do with camming, it has to do with really really really liking a third party candidate and living in a swing state and having to think long and hard about what I'm going to do...

I think any trouble is more likely to come from the big porn producers, and I have no doubt they'll try to use the legislative process to improve their chances. Hmm.....I wonder how many porn producers are members of ALEC?

Mark my words...the battle ground for this will be state by state, and the big gestures will be from governors and city councils, not the president.

That being said, i think camming will always be around....but the days when you could just cam from your house and decide whether to be indy or work a site, and all the variety of how to work your hustle... that may not always be around......because that's what WE want.....not what the INDUSTRY wants....and we're not exactly a unified workforce.

temptingmodel
10-01-2012, 04:34 PM
MY view of politics I mean really left or right the fact you put any value in what either party days at this point only makes you a bigger idiot than they perceive you to be, the only thing real I can believe in is a struggling family trying there hardest to survive while our politicians who are sapossed to represent us volley back and forth with lies and agendas both sides,I have an idea why don't we fire all the pretentious pencil pushing , lie while smiling in your face , lazy get. Nothing accomplished politicians and replace them with war vets atleast they have my respect and gratitude and have fought for our freedom and rights and have earned there position to be there.I'm a little cynical when we as society place aside our common sense of what's right and wrong what's truth and untruth and place our confidence in a person or political party and accept the open faced deceptions that we gladly follow because there's not a better system that exemplify how we as humans take care and treat each other
All said and done~ We are the oldest profession we are here during wars, poverty, Alcohol and Porn keep the peace ;)

SarahTime
10-01-2012, 05:16 PM
I wonder how many congressmen view webcams.... heh ;) You KNOW a lot of them surf porn!!!

I'm telling you... under the fit and proper image, they're all probably freaks!

SarahTime
10-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Especially since Romney is so anti-women's rights. Those guys are throwing huge fits over his wanting to mess with pro-choicers.


Why do I keep hearing that Romney is "anti women" or about "what he's doing to women"? It's come up a few times lately and I don't get it. When someone says this are they referring to the abortion debate? Because otherwise... I don't see how he is doing anything to hurt women or their rights at all... including by being pro life...

Jessica1001
10-01-2012, 05:23 PM
I wonder how many congressmen view webcams.... heh ;)

They're the ones who never show face on cam2cam. You've probably seen more congressman cock than you'll ever know. :-P

Kellydancer
10-01-2012, 08:04 PM
Why do I keep hearing that Romney is "anti women" or about "what he's doing to women"? It's come up a few times lately and I don't get it. When someone says this are they referring to the abortion debate? Because otherwise... I don't see how he is doing anything to hurt women or their rights at all... including by being pro life...

Because so many issues become "womens issues" when they really aren't. For instance the abortion issue. That is is more complex than being pro or against women and there are the issues like is it life, what about the man and so many other ones. Then there is the welfare issue which has become a womans issue but I don't think so either. To me issues like fair pay are womens issues but not as much the other issues which can also be religious issues and so much more. I will admit I definitely have mixed feelings on the abortion issue and see many aspects.

Smurfette
10-01-2012, 08:06 PM
Why do I keep hearing that Romney is "anti women" or about "what he's doing to women"? It's come up a few times lately and I don't get it. When someone says this are they referring to the abortion debate? Because otherwise... I don't see how he is doing anything to hurt women or their rights at all... including by being pro life...

He's not only pro-life but also supports amendments to the constitution which would give 'personhood' status at the moment of conception/fertilization. If a fertilized egg is considered a fully formed citizen with all legal/constitutional rights, then abortion would obviously be illegal in ALL cases including rape/incest. In-vitro fertilization would be banned. The morning after pill would be banned, and MANY other forms of contraceptives including the regular monthly oral pill and IUDs. It also becomes a slippery slope in regards to miscarriage... how could you prove that a woman didn't make herself miscarry? What if a woman does drugs and then has a miscarriage, should she be sentenced with manslaughter? What if she ate sushi, got sick and then had a miscarriage? Should she go to jail? There was already a young woman in Mississippi sent to prison because she had a stillborn, and it was found she had used drugs during her pregnancy.

Ultimately, these extreme pro-life views are about protecting a bundle of cells at ALL costs, even when if it means pain/suffering/loss of rights for women. Republicans are all about small government except when it comes to vaginas and uteruses apparently.

Romney also won't answer whether or not he'd support the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, Violence Against Women Act, or the Fair Pay Act.... but Republicans in general seem to be opposed to that kind of stuff. Why, I don't know.

SarahTime
10-01-2012, 11:42 PM
I was typing a whole response... but I'm so tired of politics lol :) Maybe tomorrow. Going to think about this a bit before I reply.

Classy_Katy
10-01-2012, 11:45 PM
Why do I keep hearing that Romney is "anti women" or about "what he's doing to women"? It's come up a few times lately and I don't get it. When someone says this are they referring to the abortion debate? Because otherwise... I don't see how he is doing anything to hurt women or their rights at all... including by being pro life...

If only you had the facebook friends that I have...there is so much! I can't understand why any woman would vote for them, it's putting women back into the 1950's. An unnecessary internal ultrasound scan would be one thing, when a woman is seeking an abortion...it doesn't matter what her age is or whether or not she was raped, she has to have a transvaginal ultrasound in some states and be shown by the Dr where all the limbs and organs are on the screen. It's aimed at trying to put the woman off having an abortion...imagine a 12 year old who was raped being forced to have this probe put inside her! This is not a comfortable form of scan in the best of circumstances.

For more info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Women

Zell Axis
10-02-2012, 12:18 AM
Oh ow, I started an angle of politics without meaning to. Sorry about that. However I still think that whatever filter is put on the computers will be easy to bypass or get rid of. Also an option is buying your computers online from the U.K. Then again I'm assuming that it would pass, which I really don't think it would.

Crustyz
10-02-2012, 11:34 AM
Guess I'm moving to Canada.

Lovelyme
10-02-2012, 11:58 AM
Why do I keep hearing that Romney is "anti women" or about "what he's doing to women"? It's come up a few times lately and I don't get it. When someone says this are they referring to the abortion debate? Because otherwise... I don't see how he is doing anything to hurt women or their rights at all... including by being pro life...


He showed he didn't give a shit about women by picking Paul Ryan as his running mate

Paul Ryan's views..

:

1. ) Ryan voted to end funding for Planned Parenthood, which could jeopardize access to cancer screenings, birth control, and other preventive care that nearly three million Americans rely on each year.

2.) He wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, ending safe and legal abortion with no exceptions for rape, incest, or when a woman’s life is at risk.

3.) He co-sponsored an extreme and dangerous “personhood” bill which could ban some forms of birth control and fertility treatments.

4.) The Ryan budget plan, his signature piece of legislation, would dismantle Medicaid, jeopardizing basic health care for millions of women and families. For many, this could mean the difference between getting cancer screenings and birth control or going without.

5). Repeatedly, he has tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act, which would restrict women’s access to birth control and preventive health care services, and allow insurance companies to discriminate against women and charge more for coverage than men.

loveshooks
10-02-2012, 12:33 PM
brief threadjack...

I'd actually like to keep this thread open

I know we're not supposed to talk about politics here, but the reason for that is it's pretty much par for the course that these debates get heated and turn ugly pretty quickly

I get why, I'm mean this election you Americans are having is a pretty big deal. Quite frankly I don't understand people who aren't passionate about politics.

That said, over the past two days I've edited several posts that have included low blows and thinly-veiled insults directed towards those that do not share the poster's political perspective

From now on, anyone who does this will be pointed. I really think it's possible to have a rational discussion about this issue without insuinuating that one's political opponents are stupid (or evil and make no $$$$, as in posts I edited yesterday) and so far the vast majority of the posts in this thread are proving that to be correct.

/end threadjack

peace and a wicked $$$$ day y'all :goodvibes

twistedprincess
10-02-2012, 12:57 PM
. Most people are tech savvy enough that this won't stop them. The people that aren't are usually good at googling stuff so they can find out from people who do know how to disable it.

I work in IT at my vanilla job. Most people are NOT tech savvy enough to bypass things like that. However, I believe a porn filter is just as likely as abolishing women's right to vote or banning alternative religions; it just isn't going to happen.

Melonie
10-02-2012, 01:20 PM
Here's the thing, the US does not control the internet. It would be harder, but most cam companies aren't even American, so we'd be one proxy away from camming as usual.


That is true. And under the last proposed SOPA / PIPA bills, access to foreign websites would not be restricted for US web surfers.

However, MasterCard and Visa are US based companies. SOPA / PIPA bills proposed that foreign websites accused of copyright violations be 'blacklisted' by MasterCard and Visa unless and until they 'prove their innocence'. 'Blacklisting' by MasterCard and Visa would mean that online credit card transactions attempting to transfer funds to a 'blacklisted' foreign website would be forcibly declined by MasterCard and Visa.

So the end result is that you would still be able to provide an 'adult' webcam stream via a foreign webcam host site ... i.e. your right to 'free speech' would remain unaffected. But you would no longer have any way to collect webcam customer payments to view your 'adult' webcam stream which involve charging customer MasterCard or Visa accounts.

Adult webmaster speculation on the topic of SOPA / PIPA is that, once accused of copyright violation and effectively cut off from customer spending via MasterCard and Visa, and in turn faced with the high litigation costs plus court calendar delays to bring a US federal lawsuit challenging the accusations and seeking to have the MasterCard and Visa 'blacklisting' lifted, the vast majority of foreign websites will simply cease operations before ongoing web hosting costs, ongoing internet backbone bandwidth costs etc. bankrupt them altogether. The financial reasoning follows along the lines that US customers constitute some 75% of all 'adult' webcam customer spending, that some 95% of that 'adult' webcam customer spending involves customers with MasterCard or Visa accounts, and that in the absence of this MasterCard and Visa based webcam host income, the 'fixed costs' to the foreign webcam host for web server hosting services and internet backbone bandwidth will significantly exceed the remaining small amount of customer spending income not involving MasterCard or Visa accounts.

I would add that 'end runs' involving proxy servers etc. will accomplish nothing in a scenario of being 'blacklisted' by MasterCard and Visa. The reason of course is that in order to establish a new business and obtain a new credit card 'merchant account' for the new business to receive MasterCard and Visa funds transfers, a fairly thorough investigation of that new business is now required.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 01:47 PM
Ok so essentially it's all about abortion as to why people think Republicans want to put women back into the 1950s lol ;) Well, abortion is one debate I refuse to get into because quite frankly no one will change my opinion and I know I won't change yours.... so why bother? All I will say is that I am passionately pro life and a FRACTION of abortions are sought by 12 year old rape victims... or any rape victims for that matter. Only 1% of abortions are due to rape and or incest, so it's not even a valid argument at this point. There are ideas out there to reduce the number of "birth control abortions" while still making them available to victims of rape and instances where a mothers life is on the line.

As far as being forced to have a transvaginal ultrasound, how can you make the educated choice to have an abortion if you do not have all of the information at your disposal to make an informed decision?

If you want to be pro choice.... choose a condom. Choose birth control. Choose not to have sex unless you are prepared to have a child. The CHOICE is there as to what you want to do with your body. You choose to have unprotected sex, you choose to possibly have a child - it really is that simple.

As far as Planned Parenthood, I think largely the argument there is that Republican tax payers do not want their money to fund abortions. Same for Obamacare. Business owners do not want to be forced to pay for health care including access to abortions when their fundamental values are adamantly against it. And as private companies, that should be their right to choose. Even more issue that Republicans take with Obamacare is the sheer fact that I, as a self employed individual, will be forced to buy my own health care or else face a heavy tax because of it. Government should not have the ability to force any person to purchase anything. If you are pro CHOICE, let me have the CHOICE to buy health insurance or not, right?

Either way, thank you for explaining that. I still don't see the logic behind it, but I understand where it's coming from now.

Classy_Katy
10-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Sarah...I don't think you read the link or all the posts.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 01:55 PM
Sarah...I don't think you read the link or all the posts.

I did read all the posts... and I most definitely did not read the wikipedia article. Anyone can contribute to wikipedia and so it hardly holds any credibility among serious discussions. If you have any other credible links, I would be happy to read them.

Classy_Katy
10-02-2012, 01:59 PM
It was a succinct summary, others have made very informative posts too. Huffington Post is a good resource.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 02:01 PM
It was a succinct summary, others have made very informative posts too. Huffington Post is a good resource.

I've read all the posts in this thread before every reply I've made. I also am not unfamiliar with the "War on Women". The problem here is that we do not view the issues in the same light, and that is ok in my book. :)

Classy_Katy
10-02-2012, 02:04 PM
I hope you never find those policies/laws working against you Sarah.

Lovelyme
10-02-2012, 03:05 PM
I've read all the posts in this thread before every reply I've made. I also am not unfamiliar with the "War on Women". The problem here is that we do not view the issues in the same light, and that is ok in my book. :)

I'm sorry. No offense but you did not read the post nor did you read the article.
It's not just about abortions.


I hope you never find those policies/laws working against you Sarah.

Agreed.

Smurfette
10-02-2012, 03:50 PM
Ok so essentially it's all about abortion as to why people think Republicans want to put women back into the 1950s lol ;) Well, abortion is one debate I refuse to get into because quite frankly no one will change my opinion and I know I won't change yours.... so why bother? All I will say is that I am passionately pro life and a FRACTION of abortions are sought by 12 year old rape victims... or any rape victims for that matter. Only 1% of abortions are due to rape and or incest, so it's not even a valid argument at this point. There are ideas out there to reduce the number of "birth control abortions" while still making them available to victims of rape and instances where a mothers life is on the line.

It may be a small percentage, but it still happens so it can't be ignored or brushed off. I definitely don't like abortion. I think it should be used only as a last resort after carefully weighing all options. Using abortion as a form of birth control is definitely distasteful, although I'm skeptical of the amount of women who actually use it as such, considering just how painful and invasive abortions can be. I'm all for reducing the number of abortions, and the best way to do that is to properly educate men & women about sex (and not just push 'abstinence', which is completely useless) and to make sure women have access to many forms of birth control for little (or no) cost.



As far as being forced to have a transvaginal ultrasound, how can you make the educated choice to have an abortion if you do not have all of the information at your disposal to make an informed decision?

And what information would a transvaginal ultrasound give you? These types of procedures are only performed for one reason... to make the woman feel guilty about her choice. Imagine a young rape victim being forced to do a transvaginal exam... now she has ANOTHER foreign body inside her, probing her not long after she experienced her traumatic event. Don't you find that kind of sick and twisted? Especially because it's the government forcing her to be penetrated, for no legitimate medical reason?


If you want to be pro choice.... choose a condom. Choose birth control. Choose not to have sex unless you are prepared to have a child. The CHOICE is there as to what you want to do with your body. You choose to have unprotected sex, you choose to possibly have a child - it really is that simple.

Condoms break and other birth control methods fail from time to time. I had a friend who got pregnant while on the pill. And my parents had TWO, not one but TWO children after my dad got a vasectomy... :O Don't know what happened there, but yeah. So it's not always your 'choice' to get pregnant. You can do everything right to the best of your ability and still get pregnant.

Getting pregnant and having children impacts women's lives dramatically and can mean the difference between going to college and having a career or being stuck in a cycle of poverty, working minimum wage jobs and having to rely on government to survive.



As far as Planned Parenthood, I think largely the argument there is that Republican tax payers do not want their money to fund abortions. Same for Obamacare. Business owners do not want to be forced to pay for health care including access to abortions when their fundamental values are adamantly against it. And as private companies, that should be their right to choose.

Taxpayers do not fund abortions. PP is not allowed to use its federal funds to provide abortion services... it uses the funds for other purposes. Abortions comprise less than 10% of everything that PP does... including pap smears, cancer screening tests, HIV tests, and access to birth control. All GOOD things that help women.

I guess what particularly bugs me about all of this is just how unfair it makes things for women specifically. Both men and women engage in sex, it takes two to tango. But other than condoms, it's the woman's responsibility to take birth control. What if she can't afford it? Maybe she has health insurance, but it won't cover the cost of birth control because we must protect her employer's precious 'beliefs' about the issue at all costs, when really it's none of their business.

So it's the woman who gets pregnant. It's the woman who must bear carrying a child inside her for 9 months, potentially putting her life at risk, and going through excrutiating pain during childbirth. It's the woman who must compromise her employment because of it, since she'll have to take time off. Her employer can easily fire her simply because it's too much trouble dealing with pregnant women at work and offering maternity leave. If she has a career or is in college she'll likely have to put it on hold, etc. The man who got her pregnant can easily disappear from her life, wipe his hands of the whole thing and move on, leaving her to deal with it all on her own. Even if they stay together, he can continue his career/school with little interruption, while it's her who must sacrifice most.

Abortion services and affordable access to birth control serves to 'level the playing field' for women IMO. Having control of your body means having control of the direction your life takes and your future.



Even more issue that Republicans take with Obamacare is the sheer fact that I, as a self employed individual, will be forced to buy my own health care or else face a heavy tax because of it. Government should not have the ability to force any person to purchase anything. If you are pro CHOICE, let me have the CHOICE to buy health insurance or not, right?

So you would rather go without health insurance? The government already forces you to buy car insurance. BTW, in the 90's the Republicans came up with a plan that was extremely similar to Obamacare, the only reason they are against it NOW is because they hate Obama. lol. Here's a good article about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/why-obamacare-is-a-conservatives-dream.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Smurfette
10-02-2012, 04:14 PM
You can argue that people should take responsibility for themselves, and I agree wholeheartedly. Certainly a lot of women get pregnant because they're irresponsible. Including me. I got pregnant at 19 because I was a dumbass and had unprotected sex. I didn't want to have a baby but ultimately decided to keep it. I'm happy I did, but I definitely appreciated having the OPTION of abortion available to me. Not having the option would feel like I was being 'punished' by society for my mistake, which I think a lot of it is all about. It's not about protecting life, it's about punishing people (largely women) for making mistakes.

I think it's important to look at the larger picture. You can say "well you shouldn't be having sex!" but face it, people WILL have sex. Always and forever. No matter what you tell them, people are gonna hump like rabbits. Maybe it's because they're immature or irresponsible. But it's going to happen regardless. So it's best to provide them with really good sex education so they know what they're getting into. And make sure that women everywhere have affordable access to contraceptives.

Unfortunately, conservatives not only want to outlaw abortion but they also seek to minimize sex education in schools AND make it difficult for women to obtain contraceptives. Because of those factors, more women are going to have unplanned pregnancies and more women are going to seek abortions. If they can't get an abortion, they'll be forced to endure a pregnancy and give birth to an unwanted child. If the child is given up for adoption, then it's one more child to add to the 214 million orphans living in the world. IF the woman keeps the child, guess what? Conservatives also want to slash welfare and other benefits that help to keep single mothers out of poverty. It honestly seems like conservatives care about the child in the womb but don't give a crap what happens to it once it's out.

EVEN if the mothers are irresponsible and you don't like the government giving them money... what about the children? Surely you can't punish an innocent child for the behaviour of his/her parents? And welfare, food stamps, etc. mostly go towards helping feed and care for children.

SarahTime, you also didn't respond to the whole 'Personhood' thing... would you be fine with the government outlawing common contraceptives like the pill or the IUD?

(I'm not trying to pick on you BTW I'm just a bleeding heart liberal and sometimes I like to debate, lol)

camgirl917
10-02-2012, 04:26 PM
So you would rather go without health insurance? The government already forces you to buy car insurance. BTW, in the 90's the Republicans came up with a plan that was extremely similar to Obamacare, the only reason they are against it NOW is because they hate Obama. lol. Here's a good article about it:

There are logical reasons for mandantory auto insurance. Such as to protect other drivers on the road, passengers, and expensive bank loans. Healthcare should be one's own decision. It is cheaper for a healthy individual to pay for visits and medication as needed. Doctors often milk insurance companies for whatever they can get. In my opinion, Obamacare is a scam.

Smurfette
10-02-2012, 04:31 PM
There are logical reasons for mandantory auto insurance. Such as to protect other drivers on the road, passengers, and expensive bank loans. Healthcare should be one's own decision. It is cheaper for a healthy individual to pay for visits and medication as needed. When someone has medical insurance, the insurance company is often milked by doctors for whatever they can get. In my opinion, Obamacare is a scam.

Cheaper for a 'healthy individual'? Maybe. But what if you're not healthy? What if you get cancer? You're cool with going into debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm sorry. No offense but you did not read the post nor did you read the article.
It's not just about abortions.



Agreed.

Okay, you are both sitting here with me and can see that I actually did not read any of the posts.

Are you kidding me? I read EVERY SINGLE POST in this thread. I already stated that I did not read the wikipedia article because using wikipedia as a source of credible information is a joke. Just because I do not agree with you, does not mean that I did not read what has been said here. Here is where it turns into you guys being rude to me for no reason other than the sheer fact that you disagree with me. If that's how you choose to be, fine.

I summed it up to being basically, MOSTLY about abortion which IT IS.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 04:54 PM
It may be a small percentage, but it still happens so it can't be ignored or brushed off. I definitely don't like abortion. I think it should be used only as a last resort after carefully weighing all options. Using abortion as a form of birth control is definitely distasteful, although I'm skeptical of the amount of women who actually use it as such, considering just how painful and invasive abortions can be. I'm all for reducing the number of abortions, and the best way to do that is to properly educate men & women about sex (and not just push 'abstinence', which is completely useless) and to make sure women have access to many forms of birth control for little (or no) cost.



And what information would a transvaginal ultrasound give you? These types of procedures are only performed for one reason... to make the woman feel guilty about her choice. Imagine a young rape victim being forced to do a transvaginal exam... now she has ANOTHER foreign body inside her, probing her not long after she experienced her traumatic event. Don't you find that kind of sick and twisted? Especially because it's the government forcing her to be penetrated, for no legitimate medical reason?



Condoms break and other birth control methods fail from time to time. I had a friend who got pregnant while on the pill. And my parents had TWO, not one but TWO children after my dad got a vasectomy... :O Don't know what happened there, but yeah. So it's not always your 'choice' to get pregnant. You can do everything right to the best of your ability and still get pregnant.

Getting pregnant and having children impacts women's lives dramatically and can mean the difference between going to college and having a career or being stuck in a cycle of poverty, working minimum wage jobs and having to rely on government to survive.



Taxpayers do not fund abortions. PP is not allowed to use its federal funds to provide abortion services... it uses the funds for other purposes. Abortions comprise less than 10% of everything that PP does... including pap smears, cancer screening tests, HIV tests, and access to birth control. All GOOD things that help women.

I guess what particularly bugs me about all of this is just how unfair it makes things for women specifically. Both men and women engage in sex, it takes two to tango. But other than condoms, it's the woman's responsibility to take birth control. What if she can't afford it? Maybe she has health insurance, but it won't cover the cost of birth control because we must protect her employer's precious 'beliefs' about the issue at all costs, when really it's none of their business.

So it's the woman who gets pregnant. It's the woman who must bear carrying a child inside her for 9 months, potentially putting her life at risk, and going through excrutiating pain during childbirth. It's the woman who must compromise her employment because of it, since she'll have to take time off. Her employer can easily fire her simply because it's too much trouble dealing with pregnant women at work and offering maternity leave. If she has a career or is in college she'll likely have to put it on hold, etc. The man who got her pregnant can easily disappear from her life, wipe his hands of the whole thing and move on, leaving her to deal with it all on her own. Even if they stay together, he can continue his career/school with little interruption, while it's her who must sacrifice most.

Abortion services and affordable access to birth control serves to 'level the playing field' for women IMO. Having control of your body means having control of the direction your life takes and your future.



So you would rather go without health insurance? The government already forces you to buy car insurance. BTW, in the 90's the Republicans came up with a plan that was extremely similar to Obamacare, the only reason they are against it NOW is because they hate Obama. lol. Here's a good article about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/why-obamacare-is-a-conservatives-dream.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

I appreicate that you can explain your side without being rude. You bring up very valid points.

The only thing I will say in regards to your points is that it still is quite simple... if you cannot afford birth control, don't have sex. If you cannot afford to have a child or do not want to have a child, don't have sex. It is your choice. In terms of rape, I think that does't even fit into the same discussion considering how small the percentage is.

If you DO take birth control, or use other responsible methods to avoid pregnancy, you are STILL making the choice to POSSIBLY get pregnant. Therefore, it is still your choice. I actually had my son while I was on birth control, I certainly was not hoping or planning to get pregnant, but I did and so I assumed responsibility for my choice, I assumed the risk of sex, and I had my son. And he's one of the best things that has ever happened to my family. The only way to not have a child, is to not have sex. Plain and simple.

However, at the risk of being pointed I'm going to just agree to disagree with everyone else. Like I said, my mind won't be changed, as I'm sure no one else's will either, so I'd rather not be pointed over something like this.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 05:03 PM
SarahTime, you also didn't respond to the whole 'Personhood' thing... would you be fine with the government outlawing common contraceptives like the pill or the IUD?

(I'm not trying to pick on you BTW I'm just a bleeding heart liberal and sometimes I like to debate, lol)

I believe that life begins at conception. Therefore, I have absolutely no issue with birth control pills or IUD's or similar preventative measures. Preventing yourself from ovulation is not harming another human life. I think anything that would flat out outlaw contraceptives or IVF would be senseless. I also believe that it's not about punishing women, but about holding people in general accountable for their own actions and consequences. This belief applies to many things that I have opinions on, not just abortion.

Also, I would add that I think many liberals tend to assume that all Republicans are bible humping religious fanatics. That is certainly not the case, and although I am a Christian in the basic sense of the definition, I do not apply religious beliefs to my political views. Everything I am against regarding abortion for example, comes from what I would consider to be common sense, rather than any bigger picture religious reasoning. I am all for MORE sex education in schools, which a lot of religious Republicans are against. I support gay rights, which a lot of religious Republicans do not.

I guess my point is that I would encourage everyone to look at the individual beliefs of the person they are speaking with rather than apply all these often incorrect assumptions to everyone they disagree with. It helps to keep the discussion civil rather than hateful.

Jessica1001
10-02-2012, 05:11 PM
^^^ I believe that if the republicans had their way, IVF would be affected. Strictly speaking, the IVF process creates excess embryos, some of which are ultimately destroyed. I believe the republicans find this unacceptable.

Not that I think any such law will pass anytime soon... just wanted to point that out.

I think this is a fascinating discussion, and both sides of the argument have merits. Thanks for hashing out this controversial topic in such a civil manner, btw. <3

camgirl917
10-02-2012, 05:28 PM
Cheaper for a 'healthy individual'? Maybe. But what if you're not healthy? What if you get cancer? You're cool with going into debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

That is exactly they way they want you to think. There are natural prevention methods and cures for everything, including cancer. These methods are frowned upon as the government is in favor of keeping much of the population sick and unhealthy, due to the multi-billion dollar industry that illness generates.

Jessica1001
10-02-2012, 05:46 PM
There are natural prevention methods and cures for everything, including cancer.

Oh really? Care to enlighten us? I'd love to know what the 'natural' cure for cancer is.

How very selfish of you to keep these things to yourself, btw, when millions of people are dying from (apparently preventable and curable) diseases all over the world.

Smh.

SarahTime
10-02-2012, 05:50 PM
Oh really? Care to enlighten us? I'd love to know what the 'natural' cure for cancer is.

How very selfish of you to keep these things to yourself, btw, when millions of people are dying from (apparently preventable and curable) diseases all over the world.

Smh.

LOL :) I think she makes a good point in the second part. If she tells us all the natural cure for cancer, we can all rush to see who can get rich off it first! :D

Peachesxo
10-02-2012, 05:59 PM
Ahem.
http://www.mbschachter.com/dangers_of_fluoride_and_fluorida.htm

*whistles and walks away*

temptingmodel
10-02-2012, 06:10 PM
My thoughts for YEARS
Guess I'm moving to Canada.

camgirl917
10-02-2012, 06:11 PM
Oh really? Care to enlighten us? I'd love to know what the 'natural' cure for cancer is.

How very selfish of you to keep these things to yourself, btw, when millions of people are dying from (apparently preventable and curable) diseases all over the world.

Smh.

Juicing, Laetrile, Noni Juice, among other things. It is no secret.

Smurfette
10-02-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm sorry Sarah, I know being the minority opinion in a political discussion is no fun. :)


The only thing I will say in regards to your points is that it still is quite simple... if you cannot afford birth control, don't have sex. If you cannot afford to have a child or do not want to have a child, don't have sex. It is your choice. In terms of rape, I think that does't even fit into the same discussion considering how small the percentage is.

If you DO take birth control, or use other responsible methods to avoid pregnancy, you are STILL making the choice to POSSIBLY get pregnant. Therefore, it is still your choice. I actually had my son while I was on birth control, I certainly was not hoping or planning to get pregnant, but I did and so I assumed responsibility for my choice, I assumed the risk of sex, and I had my son. And he's one of the best things that has ever happened to my family. The only way to not have a child, is to not have sex. Plain and simple.

That was essentially what I did too. I took responsibility and decided to adapt to the situation rather than getting an abortion. That's what felt right for me at the time. However, I don't feel entitled to make that choice for other women. And I don't necessarily believe that women are avoiding responsibility by getting an abortion either. In some cases, it might be the most responsible way of dealing with it. If the woman is addicted to drugs, or mentally ill, or for whatever reason deems herself unfit to be a mother, it might be the best decision. Or it might not be. I don't know, I can judge from afar but I'm in no position of authority to tell other women what to do.


I believe that life begins at conception. Therefore, I have absolutely no issue with birth control pills or IUD's or similar preventative measures. Preventing yourself from ovulation is not harming another human life. I think anything that would flat out outlaw contraceptives or IVF would be senseless. I also believe that it's not about punishing women, but about holding people in general accountable for their own actions and consequences. This belief applies to many things that I have opinions on, not just abortion.

Well technically, I'm not sure about the pill but IUDs work by preventing *implantation*. So the egg may become fertilized by the sperm, but the IUD prevents it from being implanted in the uterine wall. This is why they want it banned, because technically, the egg and the sperm join together, meeting the definition of 'Personhood'.



Also, I would add that I think many liberals tend to assume that all Republicans are bible humping religious fanatics. That is certainly not the case, and although I am a Christian in the basic sense of the definition, I do not apply religious beliefs to my political views. Everything I am against regarding abortion for example, comes from what I would consider to be common sense, rather than any bigger picture religious reasoning. I am all for MORE sex education in schools, which a lot of religious Republicans are against. I support gay rights, which a lot of religious Republicans do not.

I agree with you there, and I'm sorry if I may have assumed things about you that you don't actually believe. Our two-party system has somehow created only two sets of beliefs we're supposed to adhere to, but the reality is often much more complicated and nuanced than that.


Juicing, Laetrile, Noni Juice, among other things. It is no secret.

LOL.

Lovelyme
10-02-2012, 06:22 PM
It may be a small percentage, but it still happens so it can't be ignored or brushed off. I definitely don't like abortion. I think it should be used only as a last resort after carefully weighing all options. Using abortion as a form of birth control is definitely distasteful, although I'm skeptical of the amount of women who actually use it as such, considering just how painful and invasive abortions can be. I'm all for reducing the number of abortions, and the best way to do that is to properly educate men & women about sex (and not just push 'abstinence', which is completely useless) and to make sure women have access to many forms of birth control for little (or no) cost.



And what information would a transvaginal ultrasound give you? These types of procedures are only performed for one reason... to make the woman feel guilty about her choice. Imagine a young rape victim being forced to do a transvaginal exam... now she has ANOTHER foreign body inside her, probing her not long after she experienced her traumatic event. Don't you find that kind of sick and twisted? Especially because it's the government forcing her to be penetrated, for no legitimate medical reason?



Condoms break and other birth control methods fail from time to time. I had a friend who got pregnant while on the pill. And my parents had TWO, not one but TWO children after my dad got a vasectomy... :O Don't know what happened there, but yeah. So it's not always your 'choice' to get pregnant. You can do everything right to the best of your ability and still get pregnant.

Getting pregnant and having children impacts women's lives dramatically and can mean the difference between going to college and having a career or being stuck in a cycle of poverty, working minimum wage jobs and having to rely on government to survive.



Taxpayers do not fund abortions. PP is not allowed to use its federal funds to provide abortion services... it uses the funds for other purposes. Abortions comprise less than 10% of everything that PP does... including pap smears, cancer screening tests, HIV tests, and access to birth control. All GOOD things that help women.

I guess what particularly bugs me about all of this is just how unfair it makes things for women specifically. Both men and women engage in sex, it takes two to tango. But other than condoms, it's the woman's responsibility to take birth control. What if she can't afford it? Maybe she has health insurance, but it won't cover the cost of birth control because we must protect her employer's precious 'beliefs' about the issue at all costs, when really it's none of their business.

So it's the woman who gets pregnant. It's the woman who must bear carrying a child inside her for 9 months, potentially putting her life at risk, and going through excrutiating pain during childbirth. It's the woman who must compromise her employment because of it, since she'll have to take time off. Her employer can easily fire her simply because it's too much trouble dealing with pregnant women at work and offering maternity leave. If she has a career or is in college she'll likely have to put it on hold, etc. The man who got her pregnant can easily disappear from her life, wipe his hands of the whole thing and move on, leaving her to deal with it all on her own. Even if they stay together, he can continue his career/school with little interruption, while it's her who must sacrifice most.

Abortion services and affordable access to birth control serves to 'level the playing field' for women IMO. Having control of your body means having control of the direction your life takes and your future.



So you would rather go without health insurance? The government already forces you to buy car insurance. BTW, in the 90's the Republicans came up with a plan that was extremely similar to Obamacare, the only reason they are against it NOW is because they hate Obama. lol. Here's a good article about it:


You can argue that people should take responsibility for themselves, and I agree wholeheartedly. Certainly a lot of women get pregnant because they're irresponsible. Including me. I got pregnant at 19 because I was a dumbass and had unprotected sex. I didn't want to have a baby but ultimately decided to keep it. I'm happy I did, but I definitely appreciated having the OPTION of abortion available to me. Not having the option would feel like I was being 'punished' by society for my mistake, which I think a lot of it is all about. It's not about protecting life, it's about punishing people (largely women) for making mistakes.

I think it's important to look at the larger picture. You can say "well you shouldn't be having sex!" but face it, people WILL have sex. Always and forever. No matter what you tell them, people are gonna hump like rabbits. Maybe it's because they're immature or irresponsible. But it's going to happen regardless. So it's best to provide them with really good sex education so they know what they're getting into. And make sure that women everywhere have affordable access to contraceptives.

Unfortunately, conservatives not only want to outlaw abortion but they also seek to minimize sex education in schools AND make it difficult for women to obtain contraceptives. Because of those factors, more women are going to have unplanned pregnancies and more women are going to seek abortions. If they can't get an abortion, they'll be forced to endure a pregnancy and give birth to an unwanted child. If the child is given up for adoption, then it's one more child to add to the 214 million orphans living in the world. IF the woman keeps the child, guess what? Conservatives also want to slash welfare and other benefits that help to keep single mothers out of poverty. It honestly seems like conservatives care about the child in the womb but don't give a crap what happens to it once it's out.

EVEN if the mothers are irresponsible and you don't like the government giving them money... what about the children? Surely you can't punish an innocent child for the behaviour of his/her parents? And welfare, food stamps, etc. mostly go towards helping feed and care for children.

SarahTime, you also didn't respond to the whole 'Personhood' thing... would you be fine with the government outlawing common contraceptives like the pill or the IUD?

(I'm not trying to pick on you BTW I'm just a bleeding heart liberal and sometimes I like to debate, lol)

I'm in total agreement with EVERYTHING said here. Very well said, Smurfette.

As for abortion, I honestly don't care what a woman chooses to do with her body. Her body. Her choice.
I'm not an extremist when it comes to that stuff. Some have very extreme abortion views.
It's a personal decision and that's that.

camgirl917
10-02-2012, 06:25 PM
LOL.

Obamacare is equally laughable. :) Good luck with your debate everyone.

ManyRoses
10-02-2012, 08:55 PM
Whew! This got really interesting, really quickly.....and I am SO impressed with how civilized everyone is being! One of the many reasons I love you gals - I just wish I could produce threads like this when people assume that sex workers are uninformed or stupid.

Anyway - I am going to try to condense my views as much as possible here...

1. On the filter thing - I think that it underestimates the tech savvy of people to assume that "most" people wouldn't be able to bypass something like this. This is similar to pirating music or films - there are very few people that don't know how to do this themselves, or know someone that could do it for them. And you KNOW that if this passed, you could just google "how to disable porn filter" - if you can use the internet to find out how to build a pipe bomb or butcher a human, you can bet your ass that people will be posting how to disable the filter! And in the same way that you can go and get phones unlocked at illegal kiosks, I bet that a whole slew of filter-removers would pop up! People would get past it.

2. On the Obamacare thing - all I can say is that I have lived in the US, the UK, and Canada, and medical care in the US scares the bejeezus out of me. Its all very well and good to say that people should be able to choose their healthcare, but a huge section of the American public cannot afford to buy medical insurance - should they just be left to die? I honestly think that the biggest issue has been how this is presented - as mandatory "insurance". People get very scared of the "mandatory" part, and the idea that insurance is being chosen for them....but everywhere that has free healthcare very simply allows you to buy private insurance on top of it. On a practical basis, it wouldn't affect the lives of people who can afford private insurance, it would just mean that people without insurance would be able to be treated. Oh, and all the crap I hear about how "awful" it is in the UK or Canada - well, I never had a problem. I feel like the anti-obamacare people have done a great job of turning people against it.

3. Finally (whew)! Onto the abortion thing....I feel that the only way to be sure of not becoming pregnant is not to have sex, but I feel that that is a very unfair thing to expect of anyone - I actually consider life long celibacy to be seriously damaging. While I am all for personal responsibility, I feel like that has to be moderated with a certain amount of sense - expecting people to only have sex for the purposes of procreation doesn't seem reasonable to me. As has been pointed out, contraception is not 100% effective, no matter what form. And if all of these bills come to pass, contraception would be (for the most part) illegal as well - so we are back to requiring celibacy for anyone who doesn't want a child. I feel that simply making abortion illegal wouldn't solve anything, but would just increase the rate of dangerous back-room abortions, travelling for abortion, and parents having children that they do not want/can't afford, leading to neglect and emotional damage. I would also feel that many abortion services provide vital counselling to women who have had abortions, and that isn't something that we should lose. I feel like there has to be a more measured middle ground - a way to make abortion something that is harder to get, so that it doesn't become a form of birth control, but that is still available for those who have been as careful as possible, or who were raped, etc etc. I would also like to put in a word for people like myself - I was told that I am able to become pregnant, but that for various reasons, me body wouldn't be able to handle the stress of pregnancy, and I would most likely not survive it. I hope to GOD that they were wrong (they got a few other things wrong), but should I become pregnant, there will be some serious thought put into it - whether an existing life is more important than a potential life.

LilRedRidinGood
10-02-2012, 09:55 PM
WORD. Never happen.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x311/melaniamai/tumblr_ma7qe0iqc41r99q40.gif

HaydenBlue
10-02-2012, 10:53 PM
Juicing, Laetrile, Noni Juice, among other things. It is no secret.

Agreed. Cancer IS cureable. So is Heart Disease, diabetes etc Are reverse-able. We are told it's just a death sentence, to give up, suffer through expensive treatments, drugs and then we're eventually going to die. Why fix us when the healthcare system makes a shitload on keeping us sick?

Go read 'The China Study'. China did an entire study on the relation to animal based products and the correlation to heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.

100% Plant Based-Whole Foods/Organic diet doesn't feed cancer (processed foods, meat and dairy do). And can reverse it. Among many other things.

Meat and Diary rots you from the inside out. Why do they push dairy products on us to "build strong bones" and we as a country have a super high rate for bone disease, bone marrow loss, and a TON of surgurys for broken hips. The facts say theirs nothing strong about it.

Rats/Mice (whichever it was) were fed dairy/then fed plant based and it was shown to turn on/off cancer. Fed dairy, cancer came back. Got off dairy, cancer growth stopped and deceased.

The government has a smart cycle. Feed us cheap, shitty food, push the food pyramid and we follow off it like sheep - keep us sick. They profit as we begin get sicker and sicker and then we die off.

Forks Over Knives has the entire documentary on it.

I think it's hilarious that people don't want to see that you literally "are what you eat" - So if you want to live, eat living things.

/end threadjack

Classy_Katy
10-03-2012, 12:46 AM
Unfortunately a healthy diet is not a cheap one, and processed "bad" food tends to be cheaper...also the anti-cancer health foods are very expensive. They can't afford health care but they're expected to be able afford an organic diet and drink Noni Juice?

HaydenBlue
10-03-2012, 01:12 AM
Unfortunately a healthy diet is not a cheap one, and processed "bad" food tends to be cheaper...also the anti-cancer health foods are very expensive. They can't afford health care but they're expected to be able afford an organic diet and drink Noni Juice?

Right. That's what the cycle. Is - healthy food is priced high.

The sick thing is that it's not really in high demand anymore. Chips and soda and meat are in demand. Processed food. Quick, unhealthy food is in demand. People are wanting Twinkies more than a cucumber.

On the 'Food Inc' documentary - There was a couple with two children - they worked full time. Dad had heart disease or diabetes (one of those) and they said even with their pay they either had to sacrifice his pills, or buy healthy food. Because it's ridiculously expensive. Most Middle/Lower class families can't afford to eat healthy and live comfortably.

So yeah, basically you're fucked either way if you don't have $$$ for it. And most don't. And that's just the way the government likes it.

Lovelyme
10-03-2012, 05:44 AM
I find it amazing that two/three of you have came forward saying you know the cure to cancer and other health issues but you're still here posting on sw.

camgirl917
10-03-2012, 08:34 AM
I find it amazing that two/three of you have came forward saying you know the cure to cancer and other health issues but you're still here posting on sw.

LOL. The natural medicine, conspiracy theoretical segments of this thread blew way over everyone's heads anyway. I completely understand that now, so no worries.

Kellydancer
10-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Here's the thing though and that's the fact that the increase in most diseases is because of obesity. We can hide this fact but obesity should scare everyone because they are one of the reasons Obamacare is a bad idea. The plan doesn't even include things like preventative care and this would cut down obesity. Also, another reason to oppose Obamacare is that what it will do is require people to pay more in taxes and in many states they will not even be included in healthcare. In Illinois only women with kids basically can get Medicaid so what will likely happen is people without insurance and can't afford it and don't qualify for Medicaid will be screwed. Let's not forget the religious angle of trying to require religious organizations to offer birth control whether they oppose it or not. I don't feel it is right to tell religious organizations how to live and work nor do I feel birth control is a right. Not against birth control at all, just looking at it from this angle.

Btw, today I got an email from a womans group trying to push 6 months paid maternity leave and free childcare saying it's a woman's right. Sorry but neither are rights. I shouldn't have to pay for someone's choice.