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Lone_Wolf
12-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Okay, I think we all can agree this needs to be pursued.

I think a good non-scientific meaningless sample size would be three customers. A volunteer dancer from SW can loan each trusted custie $100 cash each and report back with the results.

I predict all the money will quickly be repaid with tangible payback in increased business to the dancer.

So...which one of you SW dancers are willing to step up to the plate and help with the research?

missykrissy
12-13-2012, 12:59 AM
Honey if you really want to pursue this I'm sure there is some kind of work YOU can do with the promise of future payment for a sample size of however many people you want. Show some enterprising spirit I'm sure you can conduct this experiment.

bem401
12-13-2012, 06:28 AM
A dancer is at work to sell her time Bem. Dancing and not getting paid for it is lost income. Period. She is "out" whatever the dances she did would have cost.

And if she trusts a particular regular customer (not some stranger) enough to extend him credit for dances she would not otherwise have sold, you maintain she's losing something? Are you telling me that were one of your faves to convince you to do an extra half hour or so, for which she agreed to wait till next visit to be paid, she's actually losing something, especially if she had no potential customers when she offered you the half-hour?

I never said it was a wise general strategy but in certain circumstances it is a smart move. The less a "roll of the dice " it is for her, the more consideration it deserves.

The morning following the extension of credit to me I woke up feeling like it was me that made the mistake, not her.

I look at it this way.....she could have left the club with, say $500, or as she did with $500 and $200 owed her by a regular she trusted. I don't see how you maintain the latter represents a loss in this case since she knew she'd get the extra $200 soon enough versus not getting it at all..

shanna dior
12-13-2012, 09:00 AM
I look at it this way.....she could have left the club with, say $500, or as she did with $500 and $200 owed her by a regular she trusted. I don't see how you maintain the latter represents a loss in this case since she knew she'd get the extra $200 soon enough versus not getting it at all..

You're looking at it wrong. If she loans $200 and makes $500, she leaves the club with $300 because her TIME is worth MONEY and she gave away a big chunk of it for nothing. She also has no way of knowing there were no other customers willing to ACTUALLY spend money on her because she spent a half hour off the floor, not seeing or hustling customers with real money. Until the cash is in her hand (which is not guaranteed, so no, she doesn't KNOW she'd get the extra $200 soon versus not getting it at all, no matter how good of a regular she is loaning to) it does represent a lost.

Why are you so dead-set on convincing us that loaning regulars money is a good idea? It's not. We know better.

rickdugan
12-13-2012, 09:00 AM
...a known and reliable regular...

There is no such thing.

Cocotte
12-13-2012, 09:15 AM
Sometimes it's difficult getting a regular to pay for dances he agreed to buy not 15 minutes earlier. Why the hell would you make it even easier for him to cheat you? Also, Lone Wolf, most of the time we're not dealing with honest, considerate, sober men. Usually, they are drunk (meaning they might not even remember the deal next time they're in), take us for granted ("It's just her time! I don't owe her anything!"), and, honestly, kind of judgemental (thinking we'll do anything for money, or we're stupid or guillible). No. HELL no. If you want to see so badly how likely this is, let's reverse it. Could you please loan me $200 online through an Amazon gift card? I've posted here before, so I'm a regular. I'll DEFINITELY pay you back! ;)

bem401
12-13-2012, 01:41 PM
You're looking at it wrong. If she loans $200 and makes $500, she leaves the club with $300 because her TIME is worth MONEY and she gave away a big chunk of it for nothing. She also has no way of knowing there were no other customers willing to ACTUALLY spend money on her because she spent a half hour off the floor, not seeing or hustling customers with real money. Until the cash is in her hand (which is not guaranteed, so no, she doesn't KNOW she'd get the extra $200 soon versus not getting it at all, no matter how good of a regular she is loaning to) it does represent a lost.

Why are you so dead-set on convincing us that loaning regulars money is a good idea? It's not. We know better.

I don't think you read what i wrote. Nowhere did I say loaning money should be common practice and I don't know how you worked $300 somehow or other into the scenario. The girl made $500 (for sake of argument) irrespective of the deal she made with me and extended $200 credit to me. She never took a nickel out of her pocket to do it. She worked 4 or 5 nights a week at the club and had a circle of regulars. She was a hard-core savvy veteran dancer. She chose to extend me credit and it put an extra $200 in her pocket. I am assuming she'd decided she wasn't going to get it on the spot from someone else that night. I said that extending credit in general is a bad idea but in certain situations, it does serve a purpose for the dancer. I never asked for it....it was her idea because she saw me as worth the risk. Was she taking a chance? Absolutely. Did she profit financially for taking that risk? Yes, she did. Would I advise her to do it again or with others? No, I would not.

bem401
12-13-2012, 01:42 PM
more double posting

bem401
12-13-2012, 01:44 PM
There is no such thing.

Known and reliable regulars are rare, but they do exist.

shanna dior
12-13-2012, 02:15 PM
I don't think you read what i wrote. Nowhere did I say loaning money should be common practice and I don't know how you worked $300 somehow or other into the scenario. The girl made $500 (for sake of argument) irrespective of the deal she made with me and extended $200 credit to me. She never took a nickel out of her pocket to do it.

No, you just don't get the fact that a dancer's time = money. You say she made $500, but she only has $300 cash despite doing $500 worth of work because of her $200 "loan", meaning she only made $300. Not $500. She may not have physically handed you $200, but she gave you $200 worth of services for free (at least until you potentially pay it back), which essentially sets her back $200.

bem401
12-13-2012, 02:58 PM
No, you just don't get the fact that a dancer's time = money. You say she made $500, but she only has $300 cash despite doing $500 worth of work because of her $200 "loan", meaning she only made $300. Not $500. She may not have physically handed you $200, but she gave you $200 worth of services for free (at least until you potentially pay it back), which essentially sets her back $200.

You are still not reading what I wrote. She made $500 separate and apart from offering to let me run a tab. The $200 credit she extended me had absolutely nothing to do with the $500 she made, some of which she'd made off me. Her credit offer had nothing to do with anything other than her deciding I was worth the risk of having to wait to collect her pay. She sold $200 worth of dances she she didn't expect to otherwise sell. She just had to wait a few days till we ran into each other again. She'd probably have spent that half hour just sitting with me till i left anyhow. it was a smart move on her part in this case to do what she did. Could it have "backfired" on her? Sure. Did it? No. And I'm not and never have said this was a smart way to do business generally but in this case it was a good move by her.

rickdugan
12-13-2012, 06:41 PM
Known and reliable regulars are rare, but they do exist.

Even were that true, a girl has no way of knowing whether any particular guy IS one of these almost mythical creatures. The odds heavily favor a dancer being left empty handed once a so-called regular comes to a point where he needs credit. There is a word for a regular who can no longer pay his tab: BROKE. If he is so busted that he cannot take money from an ATM and has nothing left on his credit cards then he is a lousy credit risk.

We've all seen and heard stories about steady regulars who spend beyond their means in strip clubs. It often starts with them draining their cash reserves over time and then, when the cash is gone, starting into their credit cards for bar tabs, rooms and funny money (which some girls consider to be a first warning sign). Finally, when the party is almost over, they start coming to the club with little or nothing to spend and some even look for credit, at which point alarm bells should be ringing.

Now I don't see the extension of credit to club customers ever becoming a trend anyway. ;) But in the few cases where I have seen it happen, it has never led to a repayment. Ever seen a strip club bouncer do door to door collections? I have. The debtor who was being solicited for payment even ended up listing the club as a creditor in his bankruptcy filing - LOL. And in two lesser cases that I've seen (one involving a modest bar tab and the other a few dances), the guys involved never showed up again. When a club customer is so fucked up that he goes to a club even when he cannot pay for it, then he just shouldn't be there and any dancer that extends credit to him is taking a huge risk.

yoda57us
12-13-2012, 06:54 PM
If the guy turns out to be an idiot, all she's really out is the time she spent with him.

There is a reason why I pasted this section of your post Bem....


And if she trusts a particular regular customer (not some stranger) enough to extend him credit for dances she would not otherwise have sold, you maintain she's losing something?

That's not what I said and it's not what you said either in the section of your post that I am taking issue with. It's pretty clear from your quote that, regardless of your personal experiences with dancers that you know well, you don't seem to think that getting welched on by a customer costs the dancer anything of value.

Once again, time=money. A dancer's time is the commodity that she uses to make a living.

bem401
12-13-2012, 07:24 PM
We seem to be arguing here over minutae. If a dancer offers credit to a reliable regular customer (assuming one exists) when a club is slow, she is only 'risking" down time she most likely would not be making money during. If she can convince a regular she trusts to run a tab and the guy pays her for the time, she has profited from doing that. She should not do it when the club is busy. She shouldn't do it with anybody but a regular she trusts to pay her back either. In my case, she decided that was the case and she made a couple hundred she otherwise would not have made. I woke up the next day and kicked myself for letting her talk me into it.

roast
12-13-2012, 07:27 PM
There is a word for a regular who can no longer pay his tab: BROKE. If he is so busted that he cannot take money from an ATM and has nothing left on his credit cards then he is a lousy credit risk.

-drops mic?-

If the person doesnt have the selfcontrol to just go home once theyre emptied out then their impulse control is too out of wack for any sober or rational or moneyminded person to rely on them paying it back 2fold. Id guess he's living paycheck to paycheck if he cant use an ATM at that point - so she'd have to wait until he gets paid again to get paid back.

Or let's say he isnt truly short on funds just budgets a certain amount for clubs and he went over his limit and just refuses to go to the ATM? If he accepts a loan he is still going over some kind of budget he refuses to readjust to accordance to the funds he has. That means he isnt realistic about either the time he is taking up or how much he should be spending - which doesnt bode well for later.

But, let's say he pays it back. OK.

Then what does she do when his payday is again a few days away and his rent or mortgage or car payment is due or he went over his SC budget yet again... but for some reason he's at the club and he asks for a loan or coyly hints that he'd love one and would TOTALLY get her back? Theyre such good friends right? She established this flexible boundary where he is super special and is an exception, and she did it before so of course he'll ask. Bc of course it is no biggie, it is just her time and theyre so close anyway so no problem! :D :D :D We can do this dance in another month and again and again until she slowly starts avoiding him and hating herself for breaking rank.

Once you break a boundary the gate cant close again. Your dynamic is perma altered in a way that she will always take the hit for. I mean Lone Wolf declined and his mind is still blown?

The original dancer offered because she knew he'd decline or she was wasted. That's it. It was a good faith kind of bluff. He did decline. He then tried asking another random dancer for a loan and she quietly walked away. Im impressed... this is still even a debate.

Credit card default rates are already ridiculous - and in those instances pretty heavy penalties are attached but people accept credit and default anyway. Here is an entertainment possibly alcohol blurry debt where there is no enforcement except some degree of social stigma (if the dancer has the chutzpah to warn others) at that club, but he can just go to another one? Or do the "uh oh Ill avoid this club or certain nights for awhile" dance until the heat is off.





.........Just pay the girl and have fun, I mean DAMN lol

yoda57us
12-13-2012, 07:56 PM
We seem to be arguing here over minutae.


No Bem, we are arguing over your statement that if a dancer does dances for a customer and he doesn't pay her she has lost nothing but her time. That simply isn't true. If she did three dances and didn't get paid she is out the cost of those three dances. One more time, with feeling, time=money!


I don't care about, nor am I discussing, trusted regulars or the crisis of conscience you suffered when you woke up and realized that you had borrowed money from a dancer. Who cares? You knew you were gong to pay it back so it has nothing to do with the topic here no matter how many times you bring it up.

Lone_Wolf
12-13-2012, 09:02 PM
A couple points here:

-- Most banks/ATM's have daily withdraw limits. So, a custie could have money just not have access to the cash at the time.
-- All a dancer would have to do if asked for an additional loan is say "No, I don't have the money".

Point is, it's a hustle which creates the illusion of a connection with the gullible custie. When I see those Dancers again, I'm going to tip them like they are my best friends. Hell, they may not even remember me. Their offer is going to pay off for them big time.

I suspect it would, on average, be a very good hustle for the ladies.

yoda57us
12-14-2012, 12:54 PM
I suspect it would, on average, be a very good hustle for the ladies.

Let's get real here LW. There is no good hustle that hasn't already been tried and perfected by the ladies. The fact that no one here who makes a living as a dancer thinks that it's a good idea is proof enough that it's not a good idea. Of course, there is nothing stopping you from hitting the clubs and trying to find someone, anyone, who will sell you dances on credit. By all means report back here with your results. This is all mildly entertaining. It's always cute when customers try to tell dancers how they should try to make a living....

Lone_Wolf
12-14-2012, 02:42 PM
Let's get real here LW. There is no good hustle that hasn't already been tried and perfected by the ladies. The fact that no one here who makes a living as a dancer thinks that it's a good idea is proof enough that it's not a good idea. Of course, there is nothing stopping you from hitting the clubs and trying to find someone, anyone, who will sell you dances on credit. By all means report back here with your results. This is all mildly entertaining. It's always cute when customers try to tell dancers how they should try to make a living....

The "Loan the Customer Money" hustle is being worked. The Dancers worked it on me and it is going to pay off for them big time. The Dancers that offered me the loan appeared to be top earners so I assume they know what they are doing.

As for telling a dancer how to make a living - what good entrepreneur wouldn't listen to their customers when offered advice on how to fleece them? I'm half the team, been hustled by the best and I know what works. Besides, this is a forum designed to discuss such topics. To be clear though, I would never suggest this to a dancer in person.

As for trying to conduct the analysis on my own. I would try but I'm sure the Dancers I would ask to conduct the experiment would simply hustle me out of the money thus skewing the results. That's why I was hoping one of the dancers on SW would be up for the challenge.

yoda57us
12-14-2012, 03:26 PM
The "Loan the Customer Money" hustle is being worked. The Dancers worked it on me and it is going to pay off for them big time. The Dancers that offered me the loan appeared to be top earners so I assume they know what they are doing.

Two girls in one club don't count LW. I will believe that the "hey stranger, want to buy now and pay later" hustle is even somewhat universally accepted by dancers as a good hustle just as soon as a few ladies here start agreeing with you.

Kessler
12-14-2012, 04:12 PM
This is ridiculous. Pay for play. PAY for play.

Okay, LW, I'll humor you...

If you take a loan from a bank, then default on that loan, there are actions the bank can take to punish you AND recoup some of what's owed.

Conversely, if a stripper gives dances on credit and the customer never pays up, there is no recourse for the dancer. Even if it's a trusted regular, who's to say this isn't his last hurrah or a vindictive act to 'get back' at the woman of dreams for not being real?

The worst downside is considerable: loss of permanent revenue with no legal or monetary recourse.

To make the proposition even worse, the upside is negligible. Stay with me. Best case scenario, she'll make a regular who will tip more. If she makes a regular, he WILL come back regardless of credit or no credit. If he doesn't have the money, then credit is useless - he can't pay her back anyway and he won't come back. If he does have the money, he'll be back later, money in hand, no credit needed, eager to spend.

The best upside is even money.

Downside = $ lost. Upside = 0 gain. In technical terms, that's known as a shitty bet.

Lone_Wolf
12-14-2012, 04:26 PM
This is ridiculous. Pay for play. PAY for play.

Okay, LW, I'll humor you...

If you take a loan from a bank, then default on that loan, there are actions the bank can take to punish you AND recoup some of what's owed.

Conversely, if a stripper gives dances on credit and the customer never pays up, there is no recourse for the dancer. Even if it's a trusted regular, who's to say this isn't his last hurrah or a vindictive act to 'get back' at the woman of dreams for not being real?

The worst downside is considerable: loss of permanent revenue with no legal or monetary recourse.

To make the proposition even worse, the upside is negligible. Stay with me. Best case scenario, she'll make a regular who will tip more. If she makes a regular, he WILL come back regardless of credit or no credit. If he doesn't have the money, then credit is useless - he can't pay her back anyway and he won't come back. If he does have the money, he'll be back later, money in hand, no credit needed, eager to spend.

The best upside is even money.

Downside = $ lost. Upside = 0 gain. In technical terms, that's known as a shitty bet.

Good points but you lost me on the upside opportunity. After the offer of a loan, the custie would feel a connection to the dancer. He would, potentially, tip her well on stage as well as getting the obligatory BFF dance each time he comes into the club.

This isn't about the extension of credit, it is more about creating the illusion of trust and connection. Plus, the dancer could eventually reverse it and ask to borrow twice the amount during a future visit for which the, now enamored, custie would almost be obligated to loan. Seems to me the upside is limitless and the downside is only what the Dancer was willing to loan during the first encounter.

Look, this is a mess. There is only one way to prove or disprove this theory, one of the SW dancers is going to have to step up and see if this works.

Kessler
12-14-2012, 04:33 PM
Okay, let's review:

What a normal regular would do WITHOUT a loan:

1) Tip her well on stage. Check.
2) Getting the obligatory BFF dance each time he comes to the club. Check.
3) Loaning the dancer money. Check.
4) Feel a sense of trust and connection. Check.

Why do dancers hustle? For all the reason above. Because it works. It works WITHOUT the risk of losing money to achieve the same results.
That's not opinion, that's cold hard fact.

But just for shits and giggles, let's say the dancer tries your method. How many guys will bail on her versus how many guys will she hook? And of those guys that she hooks, how many would she have hooked regardless of the loan? I'll bet all of them. But how many guys will be back if she keeps giving dances on credit? I'll bet not many of them.

So there's MORE risk for the same reward.

Lone_Wolf
12-14-2012, 04:44 PM
But just for shits and giggles, let's say the dancer tries your method. How many guys will bail on her versus how many guys will she hook? And of those guys that she hooks, how many would she have hooked regardless of the loan? I'll bet all of them. But how many guys will be back if she keeps giving dances on credit? I'll bet not many of them.


That's why I'm advocating empirical data the trial custies. My theory is the dancer will make bank using the "Loan the Customer Money (AKA Loan_Wolf)" hustle.

bem401
12-14-2012, 04:51 PM
No Bem, we are arguing over your statement that if a dancer does dances for a customer and he doesn't pay her she has lost nothing but her time. That simply isn't true. If she did three dances and didn't get paid she is out the cost of those three dances. One more time, with feeling, time=money!


I don't care about, nor am I discussing, trusted regulars or the crisis of conscience you suffered when you woke up and realized that you had borrowed money from a dancer. Who cares? You knew you were gong to pay it back so it has nothing to do with the topic here no matter how many times you bring it up.

My point was the following...a smart dancer with no other prospective clients in the house would be wise to consider doing what she did with me. If there were other potential customers there, she shouldn't. If i asked for the credit, she should say no. In this case, she had a choice, ask a regular if he wanted a couple of dances fronted to him or sit there any make nothing. Seems an easy choice to me, the same faced by aby person who provides a service for cash (like i do with golf or math lessons). If i can make money on the spot, I'm not gonna give credit, but if there are no paying customers around, I might give someone i knew and trusted the opportunity to pay me later.

And BTW, my crisis of conscience had less to do (essentially nothing) with owing a dancer money than it did with the fact i wasted almost twice the amount I budgeted for the evening.

Bottom-line is this was a profitable move for this dancer to make under these specific circumstances. She made money she would not otherwise have made. Unfortunately, I spent money I would not otherwise have spent and I declined any subsequent credit offers from her and other dancers for the rest of my dance-buying days.

yoda57us
12-14-2012, 05:51 PM
Bottom-line is this was a profitable move for this dancer to make under these specific circumstances.

No Bem, the bottom line is that I am not talking about you and your dancer. There was no risk involved since you knew each other. The op's case is entirely different.

bem401
12-14-2012, 06:10 PM
No Bem, the bottom line is that I am not talking about you and your dancer. There was no risk involved since you knew each other. The op's case is entirely different.

I qualified my original post accordingly, saying we didn't know his relationship with the girls in question, but he spoke like they were well acquainted with each other. Its what led me to recall my similar experiences in that area.

yoda57us
12-14-2012, 06:23 PM
I qualified my original post accordingly, saying we didn't know his relationship with the girls in question, but he spoke like they were well acquainted with each other. Its what led me to recall my similar experiences in that area.

Really? This was the first complete sentence in his original post....


Recently I was in a favorite club sitting with two beautiful dancers that I really did not know very well.

Case closed. We are moving on now Bem....

bem401
12-14-2012, 06:48 PM
And he also said....


To be clear though, I do frequent the club and have had several dances from the ladies

yoda57us
12-14-2012, 07:38 PM
^Let's be clear Bem. When I say we are moving on it means you are going to stop arguing in circles. I allowed you to basically repeat the same post four times in this thread while you kept ignoring the responses from others in favor of telling your story...over and over. I'm not going to allow your argumentative circular debates here Bem. It is, in fact, a violation of board policy.

So, we are moving on now Bem.

Kessler
12-15-2012, 03:27 AM
LW, I have an idea. Proposition a dancer in your club. Tell her to try out your theory for a week. She can give dances on credit all week long. But YOU will pay her back for every 'loan' who doesn't return.

If you're so convinced your theory works, bankroll it - just don't ask a dancer to put her livelihood on the line to test your theory. Not really fair, is it?

Lone_Wolf
12-15-2012, 05:51 AM
LW, I have an idea. Proposition a dancer in your club. Tell her to try out your theory for a week. She can give dances on credit all week long. But YOU will pay her back for every 'loan' who doesn't return.

If you're so convinced your theory works, bankroll it - just don't ask a dancer to put her livelihood on the line to test your theory. Not really fair, is it?

I would have no problem bankrolling the hustle. Its just that I'm likely to get hustled out of my bankroll money which would make any returned data meaningless.

Oh well. I'm about ready to give up on the "Loan the Customer Money (AKA Loan_Wolf)" hustle.

I was in a club last night and was tempted to ask for a loan I didn't really need for research purposes only. The dancer was so amazingly sweet and beautiful I just couldn't risk coming across as such a loser.

Great conversation everyone. I appreciate the discussion.

LW

JustineSexton
12-15-2012, 12:02 PM
In two years of stripping, I never heard or saw such a thing.. unless it was some sort of hustle involving a robbery or extortion by organized crime, the entire scenario seems impossible. When guys didn't have money, and we knew it, we'd bolt. It's a job, and if there isn't a guarantee of money to be made, we move on to where the money is good.

Queen Jewel
12-30-2012, 11:01 AM
If it was 11:30pm and the guy wanted dances but couldn't get $$ out of the ATM until after midnight, then MAYBE I would do some dances for him "on credit"- like if he was a regular or seemed cool/trustworthy. Other than that, HELL NO.

Doc Holliday
12-31-2012, 11:07 AM
I've gotten free drinks, free smokes, free blow, and free dances, but never free money from a dancer. I did leave my wallet behind in a club three times and all three times a dancer did wave me down and return it with the cash I had in it. That's like free money.

Doc Holliday
12-31-2012, 11:32 AM
A couple times, another jolly customer whom I never met would give me a few $1s to tip with -- when I first arrived, flush with cash, and being a known tipper. I paid them back in beer.

But yeah, never money from a stripper.

rusdancer
01-04-2013, 10:15 AM
This is very odd, loaning a customer money, they must have thought they would get it back with a nice interest, or just inexperienced in a customer service/sales industry. On the other hand maybe it was a known regular. Hope they got it back.