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rickdugan
02-02-2013, 02:37 PM
Anyway, I was hoping some people here could help give me some perspective or advice. I want to support her and definitely don't want her to feel badly about her choices (she has told me she does not feel great about having danced). Any thoughts?

Yes. Suck it up and get over it.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I don't really see the point in all of this drama when it happened so long ago. Even if you struggle with the notion of being with a dancer, it was 13+ years ago and she couldn't have been older than her early to mid 20s. Might she have done some things that you would find objectionable? Only she really knows and anything is possible, but it is also ancient history. Continuing to speculate and pick at it is pointless. Love her for who she is today and let go of all the needless drama already.

summerbre
02-02-2013, 02:45 PM
"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of a hell, a hell of heaven."

Don't go to the club when you already feel negatively about the situation. Spare yourself, and the dancers. Maybe even spare yourself the need to understand why you dislike the fact that your fiancé used to dance, and focus on why you love her instead! I second Sophia's last post. :)

Sophia_Starina
02-02-2013, 02:49 PM
there is something about a relatively benign job my fiance did ten or so years ago (she quit in the early 2000s; some people here probably know her) that bothers me.


Why does it bother you, though?

wyo
02-02-2013, 03:30 PM
Ha, Sophia. That is the thing I wish I knew. The more I think about it, the more I think it is jealousy. It isn't insecurity. I have complete trust in her. Nor do I have any question about what she did and did not do back then. And I'm really not worried that she had better lovers, certainly not from the club. So that just doesn't ring true. I've never in my life been a jealous guy. But then I've never been so thoroughly hung up on someone. So I think that your basic thought earlier was right -- I'm just really in love and that is causing reactions that I'm not used to dealing with. And maybe that is tinted a bit with some kind of "damaged goods" issue; or more likely a sense of exploitation.

There is a backstory to why she herself felt exploited in various ways; we'll just leave it by nodding at the creepiness of some guys. And once her experience got colored that way, she realized that all those offers of sex for pay, regardless of how flattering the sums, were making a presupposition about her b/c of what she was doing -- it sent a message. As did the restrictions from "mainstream" entertainment about working at the club; clearly they viewed it negatively, damaged goods. There was a story somewhere recently about some classically trained ballerina in NY who had ditched the tutus for the strip club and how empowering she thought this was. I think there is a difference between someone who makes that choice and someone who is stripping b/c it is how they keep their hopes alive elsewhere, but who otherwise wouldn't be doing it.

rusdancer
02-02-2013, 06:49 PM
In the 90s... Are you kidding?
Ive been around that long (mid) and worked at times in Manhattan back then too. If anything, you should be proud of her, those were truly the golden years that we will probably never see again. Dancers were treated like celebrities.

unbeleavable
02-02-2013, 07:06 PM
Are you happy wyo, look at it as a strength. There is something to be said for that...she was part of something & made it past, with you.

wyo
02-02-2013, 11:59 PM
rusdancer - my fiance is exactly the same age as you (from your profile). If you were in the city at that time, you would know each other, I guess (I don't really know how that works...).

I hope to do more than just "suck it up" and instead find a way to let it go. I expected to get some blow back when I posted intitially, because the question presupposes that working as a dancer is different from other types of employment in such a way that it might cause problems. But let me just say that it was different than I expected. My approach to the issue is this: It is obvious that, taken at face value, a person having worked in the sex industry is going generate some problems. And some of the comments above suggest that this is "conventional wisdom". So one approach to a question such as mine is rusdancer's and unbeleavable's last comment (as well as some others before that): "think of it this way".

A different response, and the dominant one, is defensive. It seeks to locate the problem as a negative characteristic of me. *I* must be insecure or really jealous or whiny or moralistic or close-minded, or a drama queen, or whatever. (Of course, to some extent we all are that way.) Because in the end, if the difficulties can always be written off to the badness of others, no self-reflection is necessary. And I am not suggesting by that comment that there is anything wrong with the profession. But it does no good denying that people you might some day care about deeply will have trouble with it -- and not just because they are jerks. Summerbre took exception to my calling sexuality a quagmire. But it is. A beautiful and wonderful, and hot and heavy, as it gets -- it is also just a pit of intense emotions. Just sayin'.

And for what its worth unbeleavable -- I am happy. You?

Kessler
02-03-2013, 01:28 AM
Wyo - regarding your response to my post, I'm glad you're looking inward. And it's interesting that you see her as a type of 'victim' and are a bit upset that she (and her friends) put herself in that situation.

But think of it this way: you love her now, yes? You're crazy about the woman she is today - all of her. Being a psychology major, you know that those years she spent dancing, her positive and negative experiences during that time period, has helped shape her into the person she is today. Without those experiences, without that path in her life's journey, a) she might have grown into a very different person and b) you may have never met her. So the sum-total, the culmination of all her experiences, including her dancing years, has not only led to your meeting, but also your falling in love. Dancing may not have been a positive experience overall, but it was necessary for the existence of your current relationship today. Accepting her and the relationship you share also means accepting all that came before it. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but hopefully that brings you some small measure of peace.

summerbre
02-03-2013, 03:26 AM
Most of what I've been trying to illustrate is that it doesn't *have* to be a "quagmire" (since we've taken to using that term) if you don't *view* it as one! Lighten your load by lightening your perception of things, and respecting your experience, not trying too hard to make value judgements as "good" or "bad" -- but just IS! It wouldn't be causing you so much agony if it weren't a reflection of your own jealousy/insecurities/whatever you want to call it. I'm sorry. It just wouldn't.

wyo
02-03-2013, 06:57 AM
summerbre - I really enjoy your thoughtfulness and comments. I agree that sexuality in some sense doesn't have to be a quagmire. For me, personally, it isn't much of one usually. That is why these feelings were confusing to me. If I just thought, "Dang stripping is bad; only a complete slut would do that (Or whatever people think)" it wouldn't have been hard to figure out why I was responding this way. But then it turns out that I apparently have certain issues (insecurities/jealosies/whatever) that I didn't know were there and don't really understand. But even if we, ourselves, manage to work out all our own issues (unlikely in my opinion); the truth is that we will most likely have to deal with those of others. Sure it would be great if one day you meet someone who you love and who doesn't give a hoot about your past; I'm sure my fiance thought the same. But that guy, as great as he may be, might simply end up struggling with it a little or a lot.

Kessler - I think this is right. But I'd also like to think more positively -- even than her -- about this part of her life.

flyguy29
02-04-2013, 01:13 AM
If you built a Life together without any hitch or doubt, then it is all in your mind. If she had a fiancé who tore her heart apart, I would be more worried about THAT past. Something tells me that there is a part of her that you don't quite understand or she is not letting you in on...

vivianbear
02-04-2013, 02:15 AM
Dude, it's simple: you obviously have a stupid "Madonna vs. Whore" complex. You need to stop putting her up like you think she's "better" than stripping or "worse" for having done it and just deal with her on her terms, TODAY. This isn't nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be. In fact, it's just making you sound all the more self-absorbed. This obviously isn't about her or her past, at all. This it all about YOU and what you want to imagine her life as (incomplete and wanting) before you stepped in and swept her off her feet. The truth is, she was living and being herself and she's the exact same person today, and probably more confident and competitive due to her experiences. This is entirely your problem. If you were my man, I would absolutely tell you to shut it and quit your crying. I can't believe you're going on about this, ten years later.

This also reminds me of a Dr. Phil question I read one time about the woman who found out her husband (of many years) had visited a strip club nearly a decade before they had been married. She was livid that he would have even been in such a place! Normally, I can't stand Dr Phil but at least he had the clarity of telling her that she was becoming er own worst enemy. He responded that she was at risk of losing her marriage by creating this false sense of urgency around a single experience that was entirely outside of her own control. Why would you bother arguing with someone you've made a commitment ot love unconditionally about something as stupid as where they were TEN years ago?

Stop being a control freak. Stop being an egomaniac. Be lucky she hasn't left you already (I'm sure someone in her camp is suggesting it, right now) and if you do end up marrying her, NEVER bring this up for discussion/debate again. You'll be joining the ranks of the staggering divorce statistics before you hit year five.

___________________________

Just adding: I, TOO, would totally use a time-machine to go to NYC and dance in the stripper-hayday that was the 90's! How cool would that be?! I'd feel kind of silly using all that stellar technology to just go to work, though.

wyo
02-04-2013, 08:19 AM
flyguy: I totally agree with that. Thanks. I do think that there is something I don't understand (I think she has been super honest). I don't want to talk too much about her so there is info which I haven't mentioned which comes into play here.
vivianbear: Ah, the madonna v. whore complex. Yes, we have talked about this. I certainly think my own sexuality plays into the issue. One thing is this: The abstract idea of her dancing has a certain kind of sexual appeal. So there is a kind of sexualization of her past in my head. But it is fantasy; the reality of her dancing (I mean like tomorrrow) is not something I would be ok with. And I certainly think that this colors my response.
As for her friends and leaving me. Nah. Her friends like me quite a bit. Most of her friends have no idea about her past work. Her friends remaining from the club have had experiences that are pretty bad with bfs/spouses on this very topic and my sense is that they get it. These are all women who are no longer in the industry in any way. I have read around on this site where people give advice saying, "If some guy can't deal with you dancing or your having danced in the past, then he is an ass and you should dump him." Her friends regard that as a whole lot of silly. For one thing, many of them have dealt with the SO who is really *into* the fact that they were strippers and they regard that as a huge red flag. For another, some of them have dealt with the SO who responded really badly to the news and whose treatment of them changed in noticeable ways -- another huge red flag. So my understanding from discussions is that it would be great if guys could just have a kind of benign acceptance, but that it is sort of understandable if they have a few hang ups to work out. Let me try to explain from my perspective why it can be hard to navigate the issue even if it was something she did 10 years ago. Most guys don't really think about strippers or stripping all that much; it just isn't something you think about except when it somehow "pops" in a sitcom or something. So you have some kind of vague societal impression of dancers. And like a lot of guys, my experience in clubs is pretty limited. (My response both times was something like this: She is pretty cute. If I met her somewhere else, I might like to get to know her. But that is not what this is about. I don't really see the point of sitting here spending a bunch of money on expensive drinks getting hard in front of my friends. I'd rather just go home and jerk off.) But then someone you are involved with tells you that they used to be a stripper. Now my first response was, "That's cool. What was it like?" Then you hear some stories. But have you ever noticed how things you never noticed before start to show up everywhere when somebody brings it up. Well that happens. All of a sudden, there are comments about strippers everywhere in your life and they become oddly personal. And as you probably know, a lot of those comments are less than flattering. So now all of a sudden you've got your boss or somebody talking about how they went to a strip club and how the girls in the private room were doing this and that and offerring this and that. Or whatever else kind of stuff you hear. And now you are like, "Crap! Is that what was going on?" I know guys well enough to know talk is cheap, but still there is this little question in your head. And so you ask. And a little bit more info comes up -- not necessarily about her, but just about the scene and also about how people think and talk about the scene. So even though you are ok with whatever your SO was doing, you end up trying to find a way to process. And so you end up thinking about this stuff. And so it goes until you get perspective.
Also, my fiance and I are really close. As I've said above, she isn't totally ok with her years dancing and the truth is she likes that we talk about this. I think it matters to her that I love her and accept her regardless. And she is sensible enough to know that this will involve me coming to my own understanding of it and that this won't necessarily be easy. There is a presupposition in your comment that *I* am always the one bringing it up. This isn't so. Sometimes she gets down on herself and wants to talk. And I am there for her to talk to. It seems to me that the kind of relationship you are advocating for would be a pretty crappy one, one that was headed for divorce. So no, it isn't all about me. But yes, this particular thread is all about me.

Sophia_Starina
02-04-2013, 08:31 AM
^^^ tl;dr

wyo
02-04-2013, 09:34 AM
Shorter version:
flyguy: I totally agree with that. Thanks.

vivianbear: Madonna v. whore complex. Yes, we have talked about this. I certainly think my own sexuality plays into the issue. I'm a guy -- my sexuality plays into which smoothie flavor I choose.

As for her friends and leaving me. Nah. Her friends like me quite a bit. They have had experiences with this stuff. These are all women who are no longer in the industry. I have read around on this site where people give advice saying, "If some guy can't deal with you dancing or your having danced in the past, then he is an ass and you should dump him." Her friends regard that as a whole lot of silly.

For one thing, many of them have dealt with the SO who is really *into* the fact that they were strippers and regard that as a huge red flag. For another, some of them have dealt with the SO who responded really badly and whose treatment of them changed in noticeable ways -- another huge red flag. My understanding is that they think it would be great if guys could just have a kind of benign acceptance, but that it is sort of understandable if they have a few hang ups to work out.

Let me try to explain from my perspective why it can be hard to navigate the issue even if it was something she did 10 years ago. Most guys don't really think about strippers or stripping all that much. And like a lot of guys, my experience in clubs is pretty limited. But then someone you are involved with tells you that they used to be a stripper. First response: "That's cool. What was it like?" Then you hear some stories. But now stripping is "on your radar". All of a sudden, there are comments about strippers everywhere and they become oddly personal. And as you know a lot of those comments are often less than flattering. So now all of a sudden you've got your boss talking about how they went to a strip club and how the girls in the private room were doing this and that and offerring this and that. And now you are like, "Crap! Is that what was going on?" I know guys well enough to know talk is cheap, but still there is this little question in your head. And so you ask. And a little bit more info comes up -- not necessarily about her, but just about the scene and also about how people think and talk about the scene. So even though you are ok with whatever your SO was doing, you end up trying to find a way to process. And so you end up thinking about this stuff. And so it goes until you get perspective.

Also, my fiance and I are really close. As I've said above, she isn't totally ok with her years dancing and the truth is she likes that we talk about this. I think it matters to her that I love her and accept her regardless. And she is sensible enough to know that this will involve me coming to my own understanding of it and that this won't necessarily be easy. There is a presupposition in your comment that *I* am always the one bringing it up. This isn't so. Sometimes she gets down on herself and wants to talk. And I am there for her to talk to. It seems to me that the kind of relationship you are advocating for would be a pretty crappy one, one that was headed for divorce. So no, it isn't all about me. But yes, this particular thread is all about me.

invibe
02-04-2013, 07:24 PM
This is going to come off a little self righteous so apologies in advance...

I'm a combat veteran, there is no way the girl crazy enough to fall in love with me will ever hear about any of the shit I have done. The problem I'm guessing is that you are visualizing the male fantasy of what a stripper represents as who your fiancé was as a person. You need to internalize that she got a clean slate on day 1 of your relationship. She did right?

wyo
02-05-2013, 04:24 AM
Thanks, invibe. I can see the points you are making and wll think about them.

A couple of thoughts: First, from what I gather, different people feel differently about their pasts (or presents) as strippers. My fiance happens to be one of those people with a very conflicted sense of the situation. (This is not only b/c of stripping; hard youth.) I suppose it would be her decision to talk about this stuff or not. But it would also be hard as her SO not to know about these things, have some understanding of them, b/c they help to understand problems she currently has. Nothing in her past may be as crazy as what you dealt with and there may be a point beyond which things should just be left to die. But knowing about her past certainly helps me understand her present in ways that, if I didn't know, might cause serious problems.

On the clean slate bit: Yes, sure -- in theory. I don't have a problem with people dancing or porn or any other feature of the sex industry. So some of my *feelings* surprised me. One example was a night when she started to give a little (not even serious) dance for me. In some way it just made things vivid and took me completely out of the mood. I was completely caught by surprise. I still don't quite know what it was that caused that reaction. It wasn't really the internalizing of a sexual fantasy of a stripper. First off, as I've said, I kind of think that strip clubs aren't that interesting. It felt more like a kind of loss of intimacy. Beats me.

Tiabambina
02-05-2013, 11:04 AM
Dancing probably has made your fiance into the great woman she is today. We've all had our experiences that shape us, dancing has made me stronger and more confident (as before I was meek and insecure) and I would like to know the man I am marrying loves that person that I am. I'm sure some of the qualities you love in your fiance have been shaped by her experiences. Also, might I add: I find that people who have this negative feelings towards the industry tend not to know very much about it. Their thoughts and feelings about strip clubs have been constructed to think "bad", "lewd", "evil" or what have you. Any one who has spent any amount of time around the industry wouldn't have these feelings. Maybe your inner feelings might be coming from a bit of ignorance?

I don't think I could marry someone who didn't accept my past, since it's such a huge part of who I am today. I couldn't share memories or funny stories and therefore would be hiding part of me...and I couldn't deal with that. My advice is that maybe you learn a little more about it, ask her for some *good* memories of dancing (friends, memories etc). Also if you do resolve your negative feelings make sure that you have really resolved them, don't be that guy who is completely fine with it 90% of the time but as soon as you get into a fight, her stripping past becomes your "go to".

Good Luck

loveshooks
02-05-2013, 12:21 PM
Also, my fiance and I are really close. As I've said above, she isn't totally ok with her years dancing and the truth is she likes that we talk about this. I think it matters to her that I love her and accept her regardless.

I'm going to respectfully suggest that those words do not mean what you think they mean. In all sincerity, I'm confused as to what you expect to accomplish with this thread?

You have an issue with your girlfriend's past. It's your issue. You are choosing to allow random comments and social judgements to color how you perceive the woman you love. You are choosing to make an issue out of something that is not at all relevant to who she is today or what you claim the two of you share together. All of the talking you two are doing doesn't seem to be accomplishing much if you're seeking advice from strangers on the internet. Seeking either validation or a wake-up call on an internet forum instead of talking this through with the woman you love isn't going to accomplish much.

For real, you have two choices. Either really accept this and move on or realize that you're not yet ready for this (or probably any) deep relationship. There's more to love and unconditional acceptance than just saying "I still love you even though...".
The worries and issues you have presented here suggest that this really isn't about her dancing two decades ago. It's ok to feel trepidation about entering a deep relationship, it's scary as hell. That said, tying your natural fears to her actions in the 1990's isn't fair to her or to the relationship. Since you seem to recognize on some level that this is about you, work on you. Leave her past choices out of it.



I don't think I could marry someone who didn't accept my past, since it's such a huge part of who I am today. I couldn't share memories or funny stories and therefore would be hiding part of me...and I couldn't deal with that. My advice is that maybe you learn a little more about it, ask her for some *good* memories of dancing (friends, memories etc). Also if you do resolve your negative feelings make sure that you have really resolved them, don't be that guy who is completely fine with it 90% of the time but as soon as you get into a fight, her stripping past becomes your "go to"

^^^really well put
I think most of us can see this coming a mile away

Sophia_Starina
02-05-2013, 12:33 PM
I'm going to take a creative approach and liberally sprinkle this post with some serious poetic-license/glitter...

Wyo, have you considered looking at the situation from this angle?:

Your fiance was a stripper.
In Manhattan.
During the "Golden Age" of stripping.
She wore gorgeous gowns.
Her nights were a swirl of luxuries.
She was surrounded by champagne, affluence, beauty, glamour.
She was something akin to a celebrity.
She was desired by hundreds of men nightly.
She flirted with the creme de la creme.
She danced for famous, powerful, wealthy and influential types.
She made incredible money.
Everyone that saw her, wanted her.
They lusted for her.
They were smitten with her.
They would hand over untold sums of money and (figuratively) lay them at her perfect feet in the hopes that she would grace them with a smile, a dance, a moment of her time.
She had the world in her hand.
She could have anything. Any man.
She wasn't a stripper.
She wasn't a princess.
She was a goddess.


Your fiance is a goddess.
She lights your world.
She rules your heart.
Oh yeah, and did I mention, your goddess is smart.
She knew that her job was superficial.
She knew that one day, she would meet someone who was special enough to deserve her, all of her, every last molecule of her brilliance.
She turned down sheiks, ceo's, and stars of all sorts... because they weren't you.
This goddess left her club behind and materialized in your life because you are her soulmate.
Compared to you, every other individual was of no consequence.
A fading shadow in a rear view mirror.


It's destiny.


Without her work in the 90's...
Your lives may have taken different paths.
Paths that may never have crossed...
Love never found...

Were it not for both of your pasts, every single action, every single decision, all of the history in your lives and the choices that were made by countless generations and all of your ancestors... you wouldn't be blissfully in love.

If you ever falter in your understanding of the situation, keep these things in mind:
You're the lucky recipient of a winning cosmic lottery ticket.
Congratulations.
Don't dwell on the losers.
Don't fret about the past.
Enjoy her affection, her sensuality...
It belongs to only you two, now.
It's something private that no one else can have.
The only thing you need to "deal with" is your future together.
I wish you both the best.

wyo
02-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the insight. I do want to make a couple of things clear. I have not and never would "throw stripping in her face" or whatever. The issues are far more subtle than that and never come up when we fight. Its really more that I sometimes end up in a kind of funk. I don't usually say anything, but she reads me a little too well and asks what's up; this is generally true regardless of what is bothering me. What precipitated this thread was an episode in which my boss had gone to her former place of work and was talking smack about the girls and the services. And it wasn't as if I thought that anything he was talking about was something she did. But it initially pissed me off -- his attitude -- and then later I just kinda got down. Maybe part of it is that I just haven't learned to have a thick enough skin about things that you all deal with all the time.

I also want to try to say something about my attitudes toward stripping. I don't (I insist on this) have any holier-than-thou negative feeling about stripping. I do think it is lewd (in the straightforward sense of sexually titillating) or is at least intended to be. And I don't really believe the idea that it is generally or universally empowering of women and non-exploitative, though I acknowledge that for some (maybe even many) women this may be true. I do think that neither my fiance nor any of her friends feel this way about it. Instead, it was more like a cost benefit analysis: is it worth dealing with these schmucks for the money and flexibility to pursue my goals? And I think that to some extent it bothers them that they answered "yes". I have certainly spent plenty of time trying to convince her that it wasn't a big deal and there was a lot of good that came out of it. But obviously that message gets clouded when I end up getting in a funk over it.... As someone pointed out above, its about individual limits. But the temptation to push those limits seems to be (from my admittedly limited perspective) pretty prevalent and I think for some, just the temptation to perform at all already has pushed them passed their limits.

wyo
02-05-2013, 01:49 PM
I freaking love that Sophia!! Made my day.

summerbre
02-05-2013, 02:07 PM
I do think that neither my fiance nor any of her friends feel this way about it. Instead, it was more like a cost benefit analysis: is it worth dealing with these schmucks for the money and flexibility to pursue my goals? And I think that to some extent it bothers them that they answered "yes". I have certainly spent plenty of time trying to convince her that it wasn't a big deal and there was a lot of good that came out of it. But obviously that message gets clouded when I end up getting in a funk over it.... As someone pointed out above, its about individual limits. But the temptation to push those limits seems to be (from my admittedly limited perspective) pretty prevalent and I think for some, just the temptation to perform at all already has pushed them passed their limits.

The more you reveal in your posts, the more it's starting to sound like it's not your perception of the industry but hers that is making this an issue for you! I'm sorry to hear she regrets it. Admittedly, it's not for everybody. I don't view it as a "cost/benefit" thing at all -- I actually enjoy the company of most of the so-called "schmucks" that I dance for, and if I don't (at least a LITTLE BIT) like someone, I don't do business with them.

It saddens me that you know five or six former dancers that ALL regret their experiences working in strip clubs. Particularly because I've had my low times in this business, and they were indeed very painful! But far from regretting them NOW, I am SO grateful! I used those experiences to self-actualize and was able to realize that my proclivity towards crossing my boundaries in my baby stripper days was derived from my own personal baggage from my childhood/relationship history that needed addressing, and I've never felt stronger or happier in my life -- I wish the same for EVERYBODY in this business! In fact, I'm in the tedious process of trying to build an internet presence/e-book/eventually course addressing how to maintain precisely this level of emotional stability in the sex industry, because it is NOT a natural or easy thing to do -- but it IS possible.

How do you expect that YOU can somehow feel OK with it if SHE doesn't feel OK with it?

Meh, then again, either way... I keep coming back to the fact that it was fifteen(?) years ago!!! Anyone who buries regrets for this long probably has deeper problems to address, and she's lucky that she has someone who cares enough to help her (hint hint!).

Maybe have her read Sophia's lovely poem and see if that changes her perspective of her own history at all. Lol.

Sophia_Starina
02-05-2013, 02:12 PM
Maybe have her read Sophia's lovely poem and see if that changes her perspective of her own history at all. Lol.


I wouldn't call that a poem. Just a lazy response. Fuck grammar. Stream of consciousness... something-something.
But hey, YOU saying that it was a poem made MY day. Hur hur hur hur hur..... :party:

unbeleavable
02-05-2013, 04:23 PM
Lets have a wedding....:)

wyo
02-05-2013, 07:12 PM
@loveshooks. I appreciate your taking the time to put your ideas out there. But frankly, I just don't find them useful. I realize that you are just filling in the blanks about me, but I don't have any commitment issues at all. No I've never been married, but I've also generally been in committed relationships, long term; they just didn't didn't work out. I'm definitely not any kind of hardcore bachelor guy. I'm serious -- probably overly serious. Sensitive -- probably overly sensitive. And I'm kind of a loner. I mean, I have a few close friends and I'd say I'm very widely liked -- but I just like being in my own company. I'd rather write poetry than go to the bar.
I don't really know what I hoped to get from this thread, but I think I've gotten it. My intention was more to understand how dancers balance their work and their relationships and what they have done to help their partners understand that -- not so much to diagnose and/or defend myself -- in order to get a different perspective on the situation. As you may know, it is often hard get perspective on a relationship when you are interacting with that person. So while we have great communication, I wanted to get a sense of how others think about these issues. As I've said, it didn't seem right to start talking about this stuff to my close friends, who wouldn't necessarily have any real insight into it anyway. Anonymous people on the internet can be pretty useful and pretty insightful.
@summerbre: I think you are right that her baggage, which definitely runs deeper than just dancing, is complicating things. But I wouldn't want to just slough it off on her, either. I definitely have some issue and maybe the two things are feeding each other a bit -- hence the "ramp up" over time. I do find it interesting how people here think ten (or even twenty) years is a long time. Things that happened to me ten years ago, seem like they just happened. And when issues are both chronic and compounded, they can really stick with you a long time -- a lifetime.

unbeleavable
02-05-2013, 07:27 PM
wyo, how old are you?

wyo
02-05-2013, 07:34 PM
truth be told, 44 unbeleavable.

roast
02-05-2013, 07:36 PM
if she has trauma from being in the industry then encourage her to seek counseling? so youre not the bearer of it. Im unclear if it is you taking on the burden of her baggage or it is your baggage of her baggage or just your baggage.

Since you have a pink ribbon (are female? right?), Im curious if this has anything to do with bits of biphobia (http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk/why-do-lesbians-hate-bisexuals/#ixzz1HH2qc94w)on your part? Which, if it is, this forum probably isnt the best for you to work things out.

If that's not the case, idk what to tell ya but there is a ton of advice here. I think honoring that she chose to share it with you is important as Im certain she was well aware of your own issues with strippers, the industry, and customers etc before she told you... so even while knowing the intolerant landscape she was entering she told you anyway. Which is something that I think is quite brave of her to do and Id hope you acknowledged that openly to her.

We cant singlehandedly undo your (or her) stigma about the industry in relation to someone youre about to marry (or not). Nor can her history can extracted from her life or your memory of her telling you about it. There is so configuration of words that can create that magic. So, idk :shrug:.

Except understand that workers in this industry have to deal with stigma of their own, like their internalized sense of stigma - we're all awashed in the same society. If she had a shitty experience dancing then that's really tough to deal with - she is dealing with that in addition to your issues with it, her own issues with it, and society's issues with it. What Im getting at is her position is a lot more vulnerable than yours currently is and I hope youre really aware of that when you two discuss this.

unbeleavable
02-05-2013, 07:38 PM
& you are going to tell me, you are the same person as in the 90's? She's to good for you....

unbeleavable
02-05-2013, 07:39 PM
This is not a female..

summerbre
02-05-2013, 07:42 PM
Wyo... Please don't take this the wrong way... But I'm beginning to think that you're kind of a melancholy Eeyore. I could be wrong because this is only based upon a few posts on an internet forum!!

You say you meditate and do yoga, but you seem to have an obsessively negative perspective about things, which I find very uncommon amongst people who have committed to that kind of lifestyle! Have you ever truly committed to trying to change your though patterns and think positively? I understand "chronic, compounded" issues can be difficult to deal with, I myself and many people close to me have struggled through coming to terms with an early lifetime of abuse.

But it seems instead of looking for real solutions you are continually trying to justify why this is a "bad" situation for both you and your fiance. Trying to understand the industry may help a little bit, but I think the really beneficial solutions involve dismissing that need for perspective at all and instead focusing on what is positive in your life and your relationship!



Except understand that workers in this industry have to deal with stigma of their own, like their internalized sense of stigma - we're all awashed in the same society. If she had a shitty experience dancing then that's really tough to deal with - she is dealing with that in addition to your issues with it, her own issues with it, and society's issues with it. What Im getting at is her position is a lot more vulnerable than yours currently is and I hope youre really aware of that when you two discuss this.

^ This is excellent advice!

wyo
02-05-2013, 08:03 PM
Thanks roast. Sorry for the confusion, but I am a guy -- user error signing up.

Both she and I are deeply skeptical of counseling. She has gone -- thought it screwed her up more.

On sharing: I hate to repeat this, but I'm really not intolerant of stripping. It can be hard to convey these things in this format. My comments above reflect, primarily, just my reading around in academic journals on the industry and from conversations I've had with her and her friends. (I also had a friend who was a stripper in college. She and her son stayed with me for a semester. They slept in the bedroom, me on the couch. Entirely Platonic. She hated stripping beyond belief, but couldn't get out. That would have been in like '88.) The picture isn't great. But I do understand that it is great for some people and all the more power to them. I knew she had stripped before we were an item. And until relatively recently, there was just no obvious problem. And it isn't as if there is now some major problem. It can, perhaps, seem like I am really focused on the issue. But that is b/c it is the only reason I am here and I am currently trying to focus on it so that it doesn't become a major problem. (At the moment, btw, she is traveling -- so I have some free time.) I don't think that there is any question that she knows I support her.

wyo
02-05-2013, 08:08 PM
Unbeleavable. Look, you seem to think very highly of yourself and how enlightened you are. I don't share your opinion.

unbeleavable
02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
^Thank you for the compliment...as I said, lets have a wedding :)

wyo
02-05-2013, 09:22 PM
@summerbre: Thanks for noticin' me .... ;). I won't take it the wrong way, it is a perceptive comment. I am definitely a little bit down at the moment and that is surely coming through (even yogis get the blues); but I am also definitely not your typical yogi either. Like the Buddha, I believe in finding my own path. I am dealing with a number of fairly major personal issues at the moment and that, too, may be playing a role in how I am feeling. Actually, getting beaten up on this board probably didn't help that -- I was a little naive in posting. But I don't think I have been trying to justify why this is a bad situation for us. I feel like I have been trying to defend myself and the idea that you don't have to be some sort of ass to have this problem. But I also maybe take more of what is said to heart than you think. For instance, I have been really trying to focus on detachment in my morning meditation and just enjoying pranayama mid-day. Still, I'm a very cerebral guy and those approaches by themselves are never adequate; I have to understand things to deal with them. A bad yogi in that way, I guess.

I really wish you the best on your projects -- you have a great sense of people.

invibe
02-05-2013, 10:33 PM
I read your responses and think you are far too sensitive and in your head turning things over thinking too much. Really I don't think her past is the issue for you, it's not being able to deal with it one way or another and move past it. That might be something for you to work on if that is at all accurate. Not trying to be a dick with that response either, I couldn't handle thinking this much about anything it would drive me crazy :)

wyo
02-05-2013, 10:56 PM
invibe: you are not being a dick at all -- you seem like a good guy. I probably do think too much. I write for a living, so it is an occupational hazard. I'm always wondering what is at the heart of the matter? At the end of the day, though, it will all go away. She and I will get in bed, snuggle, spoon, BE with each other and everything else will fade. At least for a while.

BTW, thanks for your service. I wish I could give you more than that.

simone87
02-06-2013, 12:01 AM
im kind of surprised you've met so many women who profess to "hate" and are miserable in an occupation which is obviously giving them tons of freedom,money, and other benefits that they can't seem to rip themselves away from. every stripper i've met professes to love it, and gets more depressed at the thought of having to quit one day more than going to work with "schmucks".
i almost feel pity for them, but at the same time i really don't. its their choice, nobody is twisting their arm..if they hate it, them leaving would benefit their mental health, and the industry as a whole. this is not generally something you can be successful at, and absoutely loath. it kind of shows in your work and turns people off unless you are an exceptional actress. maybe they reached burn out and should have taken a break, or maybe they are coloring it a bit for somebody they don't think would be accepting?? you said it was no big deal until recently..a big deal to you or her? maybe something happend there she isn't ready to talk about..i'd say just be VERY understanding..
so did you have a problem with her stripping before she made it clear to you that she hated it? or was it, you had a problem and then she told you she didn't like it? im kinda confused.but then im a little tired, maybe i missed something

wyo
02-06-2013, 07:12 AM
@simone: I'm sure it is confusing, in part b/c I haven't told you everything about the situation. Let me just say that she professed to hate the job before we were a couple and before I expressed any negative attitude toward it at all. The few times I've met her friends (we have to travel to visit them), they expressed similar attitudes -- though differently and in different degrees. I don't know exactly what you mean by successful, but from what I understand they were among the top earners at that time: little dancing, mostly paid to sit and talk and drink Dom. Also from what I understand, there were women in the club that didn't feel that way. So there is probably some self-selection as to who her friends are. But knowing some of the events from that time, it is clear to me that this is an attitude that they always had. Maybe I have overstated the extent of dislike. There is certainly some sense in which they liked it -- easy money, flexible schedule. But, as I said, it was more like a cost/benefit analysis and eventually each of them decided the costs to their self-esteem were greater than the benefits. And each of them certainly understands that it was a means to where they ended up in life.

I don't think that there is anything she hasn't told me. We have talked a lot about her past b/c there are other issues and she has been very open. But knowing her in general, her attitude doesn't surprise me and certainly her attitude toward her customers doesn't surprise me. It would be nice if all of what Sophia said in her poem were true -- some of it was. But I certainly don't think she saw it as glamorous or thought of her customers as the creme de la creme. Rather, I think she understood it as a kind of exchange: they were using her, she was using them. Neither one respected the other.

rickdugan
02-06-2013, 08:07 AM
*I* must be insecure or really jealous or whiny or moralistic or close-minded, or a drama queen, or whatever.

You said it, not us. Could even be some combination thereof. ;)

Seriously though, IMHO you really need to get out of your own head and simplify your thought process. Either you love her enough to look past what might have happened 15+ years ago, and to support her through whatever she needs, or you don't. Simple. All the rest of the countless paragraphs you have written about your situation are just dramatic noise IMHO.

You mentioned that you are struggling with other personal issues and that these may be playing a role here. Look, at the end of the day, you are either going to be strong enough to give someone your undivided love and support or you are not. If you are so messed up with your own issues that you don't think that you can be a strong functioning partner for her, then I suppose that using an excuse that you cannot get over her past is a convenient escape hatch. However, that would also be a pretty cruel way to go about it.

Did you go through all of these mental gymnastics with all of your other relationships? Idk, but as a 44 year old man who has never been married and is childless, you might want to carefully consider just how many more bites you are going to get at the love apple in this lifetime. Just some food for thought.

I am really not trying to attack you, but IMHO you are going down the wrong path here. Sometimes less thinking and more doing is in order. If you truly love her then this may be one of those times.

Anyway, just my :twocents:

Tiabambina
02-06-2013, 08:37 AM
I'm wondering if your fiance and friends only allow you to have the impression they have regrets about it because they know how you really feel. I mean, I can't see myself or friends (who are all students/professionals who got where we are by stripping for a number of years) saying that we regret it all the time. I'm starting to think it's purely for your benefit. I really doubt they hated it that much if they kept doing it, stripping is NOT the type of job where you can continue for years with that much distaste for it. Honestly, you've been given some excellent advice on how to deal with this and if you can't find the answer in any of these posts than the issue is most definitely you and your coping skills.

Just be thankful your not marrying some prude Pamela and learn to be happy. There are so many other worse problems you guys could have really. Out of all her awesome experiences, out of all the CEOs, athletes and whoever-the-hell-else she met in her time, SHE CHOSE YOU. If you can't see how that might make you special then you really are just insecure looking for problems where there are none.

No one if going to hold your hand through this, at this point get over it or get on with it already.

vivianbear
02-06-2013, 09:33 AM
OMG, you're 44-years old, unmarried and this is what your biggest concern is? This really is your problem. What a man-baby she has on her hands. I feel more sorry for her, honestly.

unbeleavable
02-06-2013, 10:53 AM
^this

wyo
02-06-2013, 11:17 AM
First, I *really* appreciate the thoughtful comments above. It appears that in the world of stripping, as in the rest of life, there are really great and thoughtful people and really ... um ... not-so thoughtful people.

On the CEOs and athletes: Look, call me insecure, but I wouldn't think that there are many in either camp that are in my league. Conversely, I wouldn't be at all interested in a woman who was remotely interested in a person b/c they were a CEO or athlete. Although I am flattered that she loves me, I am not particularly flattered to be chosen *over* those guys. I'm impressed by personal character, compassion, respect. I'm impressed by high order intelligence and thoughtfulness; creativity and passion. Not so much by money or celebrity. Others might feel differently, but those are just people with whom I have no common ground.

@Rick: I agree that I do need to get out of my head. But I am certainly not worried about my chances at a relationship. I don't know how to judge these things, but I'm told that I am very good looking. At 40, I was still getting carded when I bought booze (in the last few years I've gotten a little more pronounced crows feet around my eyes and the carding has dropped off). I am in excellent shape, better than most 20 year olds. I am very successful internationally in a highly competitive feild. If I wanted to get married, I could have done so many times. But I've seen too many people settle for companionship over love and end up with a messed up life. No, I was ready to go to my grave alone if I couldn't find the one. My fiance is the one. This thread was not about me getting out of this relationship; it was about dealing with something which I myself took to be a screwed up emotional reaction, one which was unfair to her and unhealthy for us. I'm only making these claims because there seems to be some presumption that a person having such a response must be some ugly, fat Walgreens clerk. It just ain't true. You can believe these boasts or not, doesn't matter to me, I'm uncomfortable making them.

Finally, I have plenty of perspective on the difference between big problems, and little ones. One of the problems I am dealing with is a very sick kid (yes, I have a kid). That situation is stabilized at the moment, but I have perspective in spades -- more than I would ever wish on anyone here. But I also know that when you ignore small problems and push them aside, they come back as big problems.

I was asking a sincere question. I was genuinely looking for some perspective from people who might know a hell of a lot more about the situation than me. I wasn't making judgments about anyone here or my fiance. The only person I judged was myself.

Tiabambina
02-06-2013, 11:21 AM
We get it, you're not judging. But I think if your really so "in your head" about this one issue in your relationship then you need to break up so that she can find someone who wouldn't bat an eye over where she worked 15 years ago. There are a million other "thoughtful, intelligent, passionate and creative" men out there who would love a chance to be with her. So maybe just move on and let her be with one of those guys.... Sorry

rickdugan
02-06-2013, 12:08 PM
@Rick: I agree that I do need to get out of my head. But I am certainly not worried about my chances at a relationship. I don't know how to judge these things, but I'm told that I am very good looking. At 40, I was still getting carded when I bought booze (in the last few years I've gotten a little more pronounced crows feet around my eyes and the carding has dropped off). I am in excellent shape, better than most 20 year olds. I am very successful internationally in a highly competitive feild. If I wanted to get married, I could have done so many times. But I've seen too many people settle for companionship over love and end up with a messed up life. No, I was ready to go to my grave alone if I couldn't find the one. My fiance is the one. This thread was not about me getting out of this relationship; it was about dealing with something which I myself took to be a screwed up emotional reaction, one which was unfair to her and unhealthy for us. I'm only making these claims because there seems to be some presumption that a person having such a response must be some ugly, fat Walgreens clerk. It just ain't true. You can believe these boasts or not, doesn't matter to me, I'm uncomfortable making them.

Finally, I have plenty of perspective on the difference between big problems, and little ones. One of the problems I am dealing with is a very sick kid (yes, I have a kid). That situation is stabilized at the moment, but I have perspective in spades -- more than I would ever wish on anyone here. But I also know that when you ignore small problems and push them aside, they come back as big problems.

I said "bite at the love apple", not whether you could find someone to warm your bed. There is a difference. The older we get, the harder it is for us to experience those types of feelings with someone new. Also, the old expression that "the best ones are taken" has some foundation in truth as many of the best women in their mid 30s and up are married and raising families.

And since she "is the one" in any event, then the rest is academic. Why the great search for understanding? My humble advice to you would be to do one or all of the following:

1. Suck it up.
2. Shake it off.
3. Let it go.
4. Walk it off.
5. Any other similar cliche that you can think up.

Obviously you can do what you want, but I find that life throws enough challenges that I don't need to generate excess drama over things that no longer matter.

wyo
02-06-2013, 01:53 PM
yes, tiabambina, maybe that is the answer. i'll let her know immediately. thanks.

@rickdugan: Sorry if I got testy -- I see your point. Believe me that I am not trying to generate drama. I find it interesting that some people here think that it is possible to turn emotions on and off like a faucet. I mean, I can push things aside for long periods of time, I have plenty of self control. But that is different from actually turning off the emotion, it is surpressing it. Which seems bad. The great search for understanding is based on a pretty solid basis: that fear, worry, doubt, concern are more intense when we are ignorant than we are knowledgable.

invibe
02-06-2013, 02:54 PM
It isn't about turning emotions on and off, that would be a neat trick if it is even possible. There is a big gulf between accepting things for what they are and trying to work through your feelings about them. If something pisses you off fine, accept it get pissed and then let it go. We live in a time when people are encouraged to coddle their hurt feelings too much and that just keeps them close to the surface. There has been some pretty compelling feedback for why you should be proud of her and feel special that she is with you. Shit I'm jealous lol. Have you considered that it is okay to let yourself be brutally honest about how you feel for 5 minutes in your internal monologue instead of apologizing for it? Own it and if you still love her (hopefully yes) then it's done and you can move on. She doesn't need to know, and I think trying to talk through things like this is very overrated anyway it just doesn't work. As has been repeated several times though, a persons past is a bad thing to get insecure about, who can even do something about it if they wanted to? What if they wouldn't have changed a thing.. That's what I meant by clean slate in my first reply to you btw.

wyo
02-06-2013, 07:41 PM
Hey invibe. Thanks for the post. It really made a lot of sense to me. I will take it to heart. I don't agree that thinking through or talking out issues makes them worse -- though it depends on *how* that is done. Leonardo da Vinci once said, "Nothing is either hated nor loved unless it is understood." Cheers