View Full Version : Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
Melonie
07-07-2013, 05:14 PM
^^ Also keep in mind that in order to actually file 1099's the DJ / Housemom / Bouncers must be willing to provide you with their real names / LLC names, real addresses / LLC addresses, and SS#'s / TIN ! Without those the 1099 can't be filed.
There might be some good news on this front, though. While the 1099 requirement was already postponed from taking effect in 2012 until taking effect in 2013, right now in Washington tons of business lobbyists are campaigning to postpone ObamaCare provisions affecting businesses until 2014 ... and are having good success. But even assuming that the 1099 reporting requirement for independent contractor dancers 'disappears' for 2013 ( or better yet forever ) which will allow independent contractor dancers to continue 'undocumented' deduction of payments to DJ / Housemom / Bouncers as legitimate business expenses, this still does nothing to change the situation regarding non-deductibility of money paid by EMPLOYEE dancers to DJ / Housemom / Bouncers.
arielbriel
07-07-2013, 08:43 PM
Let's just hope this employee status doesn't spread all over the country...
GlamourRouge
07-08-2013, 12:04 AM
Let's just hope this employee status doesn't spread all over the country...
It would not surprise me if that happened. But I know it would take awhile. It would be a good solution (for the clubs, NOT the girls I don't think), since soooo many girls want to dance these days and there is not enough customers and enough money. It would force the girls who REALLY enjoy doing dancing and REALLY want to be there, to succumb to becoming an employee, and it would eliminate all the girls who would not do so.
arielbriel
07-08-2013, 12:16 AM
The whole point of dancing is to not be an employee. Well maybe not everyone shares my viewpoint but I always thought that was the general consensus.
charlotte.
07-08-2013, 12:25 AM
The whole point of dancing is to not be an employee. Well maybe not everyone shares my viewpoint but I always thought that was the general consensus.
agreed, if I wanted to be an employee I would waitress or bartend.
2 tons of fun
07-08-2013, 01:50 AM
.......
Melonie
07-08-2013, 03:45 AM
^^^ actually, the drug tests etc. stem from an employer's vulnerability to being held legally liable for actions of employees ... both in the workplace, and in some circumstances outside the workplace. by 3rd parties. The weight / physical appearance standards stem from a Disney World and Bellagio defense against wrongful dismissal lawsuits brought by fired employees who held jobs where physical appearance was a major job qualification. SR is not inventing this stuff ... but they are undoubtedly being advised by their HR attorneys to 'cover their corporate a$$' regarding the establishment of employee dancer corporate policy.
As far as motivation, my guess is that it is state courts, state DOL's, and state tax agencies that are pushing for employee dancer status much harder than the clubowners are. They want full reporting of dancer income to collect maximum tax revenues. They want worker's comp and unemployment insurance premiums to be paid by the clubs into the state's insurance funds.
charlotte.
07-08-2013, 03:49 AM
Them having so much more control is the scary part. Like weight already being a issue. In the new contract is says no more than 10lbs more than your current hire date. The hire date since your a employee. The contract has so many more rules that were unwritten but now will be enforced with termination hanging over your head. It says you will be drug tested, and cannot do drugs outside of work. Not that in against or for them but that is crazy.
clubs have been firing girls for being fat forever. not news. as far as drug testing, thats not outrageous either, there are laws that prevent employers from doing them too often etc. club paradise in lv breathalyzes their girls every night, thats a much bigger invasion of privacy and they arent employees there.
2 tons of fun
07-08-2013, 06:31 AM
Doing a breathalyzer is not a invasion of privacy IMO. It is for their safety and to cover their ass. Not unreasonable with what happened with shauna miller.
Melonie
07-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Independent contractor dancers being fired for just about any reason is not news. Legally speaking, clubs engaging independent contractor dancers need not give a reason for terminating that engagement at any time. And independent contractor dancers have little available in the way of legal recourse aside from bringing major lawsuits in state courts.
However, once dancers become EMPLOYEES a whole set of legal protections come into play re 'employee' rights. One such 'right' is implied seniority, which means that employee dancers with a long work history should never be fired before other employee dancers with a shorter work history. Another such 'right' is explicit, that an employer cannot fire an employee solely on the basis of age. Another such 'right' is implicit, that an employer cannot fire an employee who has shown poor 'productivity' as long as that employee has not broken the law or violated employee workplace rules. Thus without creating a physical appearance standard / mimimum 'productivity' standard in the employer club's contract / workplace rules, SR would be leaving themselves wide open to 'wrongful dismissal' lawsuits from older, not very productive, overweight dancers !!!
Similar employee 'rights' exist regarding the firing of employee dancers who don't show up for their scheduled shifts. The 'employees with disabilities' act makes it extremely difficult for an employer to fire someone who has any sort of chronic health problem as a result of not showing up for scheduled work shifts ... disabilities which the gov't defines as anything from anxiety syndrome to substance abuse as well as conventional physical illness or injury. Thus without creating a minimum 30 hour per week workplace rule, SR would be leaving themselves wide open to 'wrongful dismissal' lawsuits along these lines. And unlike independent contractor dancers having to hire lawyers to bring lawsuits in state courts at great personal expense , employee dancers can effectively bring lawsuits via the state DOL ... which costs the employee dancer next to nothing, and also provides 'free' de-facto legal representation.
Starling
07-08-2013, 01:27 PM
It would be a good solution (for the clubs, NOT the girls I don't think), since soooo many girls want to dance these days and there is not enough customers and enough money. It would force the girls who REALLY enjoy doing dancing and REALLY want to be there, to succumb to becoming an employee, and it would eliminate all the girls who would not do so.
Although see your point in this, I think it could be detrimental if lets say a girl who works as an employee at the SR decides to sample a shift here and there at another club. If SR finds out about this, they could fire her. I don't know what SR's rules are in regards to this now, but I know there are clubs out there that don't like it if a girl works at another club and would fire her if they found out.
nantiabrown
07-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Is there a special policy in the us about strippers? Here in Europe, in countries where strip clubs are legal, the stripper get the same legal aid as any other employee but much higher payments/ commissions. The fact is that here in the EU most of the clubs prefer to employ part time their dancers just to avoid paying the legal aid. :(
Melonie
07-09-2013, 03:08 AM
^^^ yes in the USA there are basically two different 'legal' and tax setups for dancers. Independent contractor ( self-employed ) dancers get no benefits, but also pay less in taxes. Admittedly, part of those tax savings may stem from a lack of reporting of how much total income the independent contractor dancer actually earned. Another part of those tax savings stems from a much broader array business expenses which can be legally deducted from their reported income.
Employee dancers get benefits, but they as well as their 'employer' club pay more taxes. This also probably leads to independent contractor clubs allowing dancers to 'keep' a higher percentage of the money those independent contractor dancers have earned, whereas 'employer' clubs must 'siphon off' money earned by employee dancers to pay for the unemployment, disability and health insurance coverage that 'employee' dancers get ( via paying out a lower percentage of customer dollars to the employee dancers ). Employee dancers also have ALL of their incomes reported to the gov't through their 'employer' club's payroll system, thus ALL of that income is taxed.
2 tons of fun
07-09-2013, 03:34 AM
Thank you so much melonie. Do you think this will start a new trend with most clubs making dancers become employees.
simone87
07-09-2013, 10:12 AM
every single year at the beginning of the year my club tries to tell us that all these new fines and dance-cuts are because they are making us employees..and it NEVER happens! 3 years in a row now, or more. its just too expensive for them. im sure a lot of clubs will make their dancers employees or worse 1099 them, but i think there will always be "outlaw" culbs who never will.
charlotte.
07-09-2013, 02:15 PM
how is a 1099 worse? the most a club has reported on their 1099 was only 1/4 of what I actually made, usually its closer to 1/10th. 1099s have helped me get nicer apartments in competitive cities like la, ny, and sf, because some landlords just dont like the idea of not having any verifiable income. bank statements alone often dont cut it, 100% cash deposits scream prostitute or drug dealer, having a 1099 saying I was a consultant for 40k last year combined with additional deposits looks a lot more legit. I honestly don't know if ive worked at a club that doesn't 1099, ive gotten 1099s from most but im assuming the rest got lost in the mail or something.
Melonie
07-09-2013, 03:28 PM
How come some club are having that option? How are we to claim negative $$ at the end of the night if it happens? It does happen especially in las vegas and I would be worried to have that written down at the end of our shift.
By the letter of the law, this can no longer happen. 'Employer' clubs are obligated to pay employee dancers $2.95 per hour for every hour they work. At the end of the week, 'employer' clubs are also obligated to pay each employee dancer enough 'other' money to bring their hourly average earnings for the week up to the $7.50 or whatever minimum wage. Even if a given employee dancer hasn't sold enough private dances or received enough tips to meet the $7.50 per hour average, the club still has to pay that much !
simone87
07-09-2013, 03:46 PM
how is a 1099 worse? the most a club has reported on their 1099 was only 1/4 of what I actually made, usually its closer to 1/10th. 1099s have helped me get nicer apartments in competitive cities like la, ny, and sf, because some landlords just dont like the idea of not having any verifiable income. bank statements alone often dont cut it, 100% cash deposits scream prostitute or drug dealer, having a 1099 saying I was a consultant for 40k last year combined with additional deposits looks a lot more legit. I honestly don't know if ive worked at a club that doesn't 1099, ive gotten 1099s from most but im assuming the rest got lost in the mail or something.
it really depends on the club, some put down everything you make besides stage money and tips guys give you after dances.which, for me, aren't a lot compared to the champagne rooms and dances i get. i wouldn't be worried if they didn't count dance money, but that's what would suck. plus my club acts like we are employees already without any benefits :(
gingerstripper
07-09-2013, 04:32 PM
The situation sucks because there is more girls than there is money than what it use to be...
but i dont think 1099's are that bad, you had a choice before to 1099 or not and smaller clubs are probably not going to 1099 you.
im sure it will all get figured out when 2014 rolls around. ^.^
what kind of makes me wonder is...if theyre going to have a limit on girls dancing for a club?
charlotte.
07-09-2013, 05:52 PM
it really depends on the club, some put down everything you make besides stage money and tips guys give you after dances.which, for me, aren't a lot compared to the champagne rooms and dances i get. i wouldn't be worried if they didn't count dance money, but that's what would suck. plus my club acts like we are employees already without any benefits :(
have you ever worked at a club that reported that much? I thought you said youve never gotten a 1099. they are very common all over the country and like I said before, ive gotten then from so many clubs and theyve never reported even half of what I actually made. I also worked at clubs that did it by vip dances (which were usually 50% of what we made) but if you asked the manager he would set you up on a flat rate system where only $30/day got reported. I have yet to have an issue with 1099s, I think they are a positive thing for us.
simone87
07-09-2013, 05:57 PM
have you ever worked at a club that reported that much? I thought you said youve never gotten a 1099. they are very common all over the country and like I said before, ive gotten then from so many clubs and theyve never reported even half of what I actually made. I also worked at clubs that did it by vip dances (which were usually 50% of what we made) but if you asked the manager he would set you up on a flat rate system where only $30/day got reported. I have yet to have an issue with 1099s, I think they are a positive thing for us.
nooo i haven't, i would hate to be 1099ed or made an employee i think..i've just heard from others on here ( melonie i believe) that they CAN or legally SHOULD report every dance you do, every VIP, and then let you declare the stage tips. its its made a law or whatever. as employees, they would have to pay you the 2 bucks an hour, and then let you delcare everything else you made ( the bulk of your earnings from dances/stage/champagne) right?
charlotte.
07-09-2013, 06:12 PM
nooo i haven't, i would hate to be 1099ed or made an employee i think..i've just heard from others on here ( melonie i believe) that they CAN or legally SHOULD report every dance you do, every VIP, and then let you declare the stage tips. its its made a law or whatever. as employees, they would have to pay you the 2 bucks an hour, and then let you delcare everything else you made ( the bulk of your earnings from dances/stage/champagne) right?
no, they are only legally obligated to report money they paid you, so this usually translates to only funny money. every club does it differently, but like I said, ive never gotten a 1099 for more than 1/4 of the money I earned there.
Melonie
07-10-2013, 03:23 AM
^^^ that situation may change for 'employee' dancers. Under an employee payroll system where every customer dollar spent on private dances / VIP is supposed to be run through the club's cash register ( so that the employee dancer's share of private dances / VIP can be included in the dancer's weekly paycheck thus the $7.50 per hour minimum wage calculation ) , and where employee dancers are supposed to turn over every dollar they earn in stage tips to the club ( so those tip dollars can also be included in the dancer's weekly paycheck thus the $7.50 per hour minimum wage calculation ), a much higher percentage of the total dollars the employee dancer is earning are going to be reported and taxed.
As Charlotte points out, in the case of independent contractor dancers, the club is only obligated to report via 1099 money which the club itself pays to the dancer directly. This typically means customer money charged to a credit card, customer money used to purchase 'funny money' that the club later redeems for cash, etc. Also, for independent contractor dancers, the club doesn't care a bit how much or how little an individual dancer earns. But for employee dancers, the employer club has a legal obligation to make sure that individual dancers are earning a $7.50 per hour minimum wage when their W2 is eventually issued. Also, the employer club and employee dancers are required by law to report dancers' tip income through the club's payroll system.
Of the handful of club's I'm familiar with that use the employee dancer structure, the 'favorite' earnings method for dancers has wound up being direct payments from customers to dancers in exchange for 'extras' performed in VIP. This is about the only customer money which the employer club doesn't account for / include in weekly paychecks / report to the IRS.
lokikola
07-10-2013, 03:52 AM
The hire packet includes 10 items. This is the packet given to all the dancers to complete.
1. Employment Application
2. Photocopies of all required cards (Drivers License, SSC, Sheriff Card, Tam Card, Health Card)
3. New Hire Sheet
4. W-4
5. I-9
6. Drug Testing Form
7. Unauthorized Hours Form
8. Scope Background Check
9. 401K Booklet
10. Acceptance of Employee Handbook
Melonie
07-10-2013, 01:41 PM
^^^ well, the I9 citizenship / green card check will probably cut out a few competing dancers. Depending on where SR 'draws the line', the SCOPE background check will probably cut out more competing dancers.
I'm not sure what's up with the 'unauthorized hours' form. I assume that it is tied to the fact that the 'employer' club must pay minimum wage + worker's comp and unemployment insurance premiums for every hour worked by an employee dancer, and probably amounts to employee dancers NOT being allowed to work unscheduled days, not being allowed to keep working beyond the end of their scheduled shift, etc.
Also, if they are including an 'acceptance of employee handbook' form, it means that they intend to enforce whatever rules are included in that employee handbook.
NatalyIrene
07-17-2013, 02:19 AM
I work at Rhino & its true !!!! Health, dental & all=_)
Melonie
07-17-2013, 02:55 AM
^^^ now it will be interesting to see how SR winds up paying for the costs of that employee dancer health / dental insurance, as well as paying for the costs of 1/2 of the employee dancer's Social Security tax, as well as paying for the costs of the employee dancer's unemployment and disability insurance premiums. At the bottom line, the same number of club customers are bringing the same number of total dollars into the club. If a fair portion of that customer money must now be diverted towards employer insurance premiums and employer taxes, it remains to be seen how the club's income and/or the employee dancers' incomes are reduced as a result.
keepitclassy
07-17-2013, 08:09 AM
memo from SR vegas
Melonie
07-17-2013, 09:57 AM
^^^ ok this announcement answers a few questions but creates new questions. For example, the statement about 'entertainers' being required to sell 2-4 dances per shift does NOT state that those 'entertainers' will actually get to keep / be paid a portion of the customer money the club charges customers for those dances.
The announcement states that dancers will be able to leave with cash every night ... but implies that this cash will ONLY come from cashed in tip funny money.
Tourdefranzia
07-17-2013, 10:06 AM
The same thing happened in Oregon in the late 90's. The clubs then had the dancers sign contracts agreeing to either be a compensated Employee or an Independent contractor. The compensated employees were paid minimum wage and had a minimum dance sales requirement for every shift. I can't remember what the exact number was, but it was pretty high. The dance sales were paid to the dancer in the form of commission of 30% or something. The dancers also got to keep all their stage tips, but had to claim them on their payroll.
So, pretty much no one went the employee route. Nothing has changed in the industry.
I'm pretty sure the employee/IC model is based on the construction industry. There are both employees and sub contractors. Sub contractors contract directly with the customer or the general contractor and are responsible for their own taxes and insurance ect. Employees can only work for general contractors and are not permitted to work directly for customers unless they are licensed sub contractors as well. Most general contractors will not hire an employee who also has his/her sub contractor's license.
Y'all just will become sub contractors. You'll probably need to get a business license (Las Vegas already requires this), but aside from that nothing will change.
CamQueen
07-17-2013, 01:13 PM
If they are required to pay 50% of every girl who is working 30+ hours premiums do you think they will stop hiring girls and or if that hurts their money let girls go??? Also the leaving with cash when received from Rhino Chips confuses me a bit. I'm looking into Rhino but never dealt with a "funny money" club. Are most your earnings in Rhino chips or cash???
magggs
07-17-2013, 01:25 PM
Cam queen ,it just depends . I always encourage the customer to pay with cash and the hosts do too. Less work for them. However some customers of course just don't have it or didn't bring it so will pay with their credit card hence the funny money. I don't think they will stop hiring girls, no. I haven't been back to work since th changes happened but i am upst to see thy are taking 25 percent of funny money instead of the 10 percent it used to be. I have a customer once a month who does a bunch of hours but only uses his credit card and cannot be convincd to pay cash .... So sounds like I will lose 25 percent of that plus my tip out to the hosts. That sucks
Melonie
07-17-2013, 02:08 PM
If they are required to pay 50% of every girl who is working 30+ hours premiums do you think they will stop hiring girls and or if that hurts their money let girls go???
I'll give you 3 guesses regarding the answer to that question about the club's cost of health insurance premium subsidies having to be paid for 'full time' employees. Also factor in the fact that the club must now start paying disability insurance premiums and unemployment insurance premiums to state insurance funds ONLY for 'full time' dancers, which ObamaCare has now redefined as those working 30 or more hours per week. In dollar terms, limiting a dancer to 28 hour per week part time status will likely save the club $2,000+ per year in 50% 'qualified' coverage health insurance premium subsidies, as well as saving the club something like $500 per year in unemployment insurance premiums plus some additional amount for disability Insurance premiums, PER employee dancer.
I always encourage the customer to pay with cash and the hosts do too. Less work for them. However some customers of course just don't have it or didn't bring it so will pay with their credit card hence the funny money.
Since the law requires that ALL employee dancer income be run through the employer club's payroll system, it's highly probable that employee dancers will not be allowed to deal directly with customers for routine cash transactions. The forced use of funny money provides the employer club with a way to perform the necessary employee dancer tip income documentation.
Also note that the 25% is 'estimated tax withholding' ... which the employer club pays to the IRS and credits to the employee dancer. In essence this is no different than an independent contractor dancer setting aside 25% of her income and in turn making quarterly estimated tax payments on her own.
2 tons of fun
07-18-2013, 03:04 AM
The dancers won 12 million in the lawsuit. How does that divide up? Is every rhino club?
Melonie
07-18-2013, 03:51 AM
^^^ I believe that the court decision was against a single club location. Thus SR will take a one time hit to nationwide corporate profits, and will continue operating ... but under new 'rules' that will prevent future lawsuits brought on similar legal grounds. Indeed had such a judgement been made against a privately owned single location club instead of a nationwide chain, it would have resulted in bankruptcy and a settlement totaling far less than 12 million.
Of course the $12 million is nothing to 'sneeze at', meaning that other nationwide chain clubs are undoubtedly watching closely in regard to the changes that SR is implementing ... with a strong possibility that the other chain clubs may implement similar changes before THEY are sued for another $12 million !!!
2 tons of fun
07-18-2013, 04:15 AM
...........
NatalyIrene
07-18-2013, 11:14 AM
I was told it was because of Obamacare (and the lawsuit) .But yea we still have housefees of 80 dollars at night so they're still getting their $. & instead of taking 10% of our rhino chips they now take 25%. I usually make mostly cash anyway tho unless I'm making SICK $ and then ask for a tip anyway. A lot of the foreign girl had to go work at sapphires tho because they didn't have proper papers.
Melonie
07-18-2013, 11:42 AM
According to my own accountant, these 'employee status' lawsuits have become more dangerous because of ObamaCare laws. In the past, a court decision finding that a club had improperly treated supposed independent contractor dancers who were working under 'employee' level club rules, schedules and work requirements, as owing the dancers 'employee' compensation ( i.e. unpaid minimum wage etc. ), a similar future finding would now also add a potential $3000 per dancer per year IRS penalty being charged to the club for failure to provide said 'employee' dancers with qualified health insurance coverage. This additional potential ObamaCare penalty could turn former lawsuits forcing clubs to pay out $1-2-3,000 each to dancers as settlements into not only the $1-2-3,000 settlement but also another $3-6-9,000 per dancer in IRS penalties ( not counting interest charges and other IRS penalty charges ).
Again, the 25% being 'taken' from your rhino chip cash-ins is not going to the club. It is going to the IRS, in the form of 'estimated tax' payments that will eventually be credited back to you when you file your annual tax return reporting the 'tip income' you earned that will also be reported via the W2 the club will issue to the IRS next January.
As to clubs 'giving' dancers the option of independent contractor treatment, in reality this is not an option that the clubowners have the authority to give. Federal and state labor laws, plus a body of federal and state DOL court decisions, versus the club rules / scheduling requirements / working conditions provided by the club, actually determine whether a dancer is working in an 'employee' capacity or not ... no matter what the clubowner decides. This in turn makes the clubowner liable for the 'wrong' treatment of dancers. And the advent of new ObamaCare related employer mandates adds significantly to the clubowners' potential future liability if the independent contractor treatment they have chosen ( which avoids the new ObamaCare health insurance mandates as well as 'employee' related mandates such as minimum wage and unemployment insurance coverage ) is, in a future court case, ruled to be 'wrong'.
Look at it from the perspective of the clubowner of a single location club with a total of 50 dancers. You choose to continue treating your dancers as independent contractors. Next year a group of dancers sue you over employee status. After 3 years worth of court calendar delays and legal gyrations, the court rules in the dancer's favor. Formerly you the clubowner would have been required to pay out something like $3,000 * 50 dancers = $150k in settlement money for unpaid minimum wage etc. ... which would probably wipe out the club's profits for the year but probably not result in bankruptcy. But now with ObamaCare penalties factored in the required payout could be the $3,000 * 50 dancers = $150,000 in settlement money to dancers for unpaid minimum wage etc. but also another $9,000 * 50 dancers = $450k in IRS penalties for failure to provide said dancers with health insurance coverage for the 3 years the court case dragged on. $600,000 in potential instantly due settlement and IRS penalty money WOULD bankrupt most clubs. So THIS is the future risk factor that many clubs will probably be 'hedging' against by transitioning dancers to 'employee' status ahead of ObamaCare's employer mandates taking effect. And in all probability, along with the transition to 'employee' status will be a weekly limit of 28 working hours to make sure that those 'employee' dancers meet the IRS penalty free / unemployment insurance premium free loophole of 'part time employee' status.
lynn2009
07-18-2013, 06:19 PM
I feel like i am missing something big here...If dancers are suing over being treated as employees with schedules and etc., why doesn't the club just start treating them as independent contractors properly? Seems like none of the girls want to be employees and its going to be a giant pain in the ass for the club too.
Climber
07-18-2013, 07:30 PM
Yes, that is my question, also. This is all very strange.
But it wouldn't be so bad to report. I mean, I do my taxes anyways...but the thing that really scares me is the scheduel. I mean, why the hell isn't there a part-time option? Where I work in LV you can come in when you want to, any day u want...So this makes it very easy to work other jobs and attend school, etc. One of the great things about dancing out here...so does anyone know if they will change that for ALL clubs? Or is it just for SR because of the lawsuit.
from what I understand, (and I really do not understand much about this, lol) the lawsuit at the Rhino is a seperate thing than what is happening to strip clubs with taxes and 1099's being issued....Can someone clarify this?
Melonie
07-19-2013, 03:33 AM
why doesn't the club just start treating them as independent contractors properly
this is a fair question. The answer should be fairly obvious though given the following realities about independent contractor status ...
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstance, clubs cannot impose set price levels that dancers must charge customers for a particular service. Thus one independent contractor dancer would be free to charge $10 per private dance while others charged $20.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose set working days or hours for dancers. Thus a club could have 2 dancers working on Monday and 100 dancers working on Friday.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot collect / retain a 'percentage' of customer money charged by dancers. The club can / must levee a fixed charge to dancers and customers for 'rent' of club facilities. This could translate into dancers being charged a relatively high fixed dollar amount nightly 'rental' fee ( where it then becomes possible for dancers who didn't sell many private dances to leave the club 'in the hole' at the end of the night ), as well as customers being charged a 'rental' fee by the club for VIP rooms etc. that is independent of amounts charged to customers by dancers for time in VIP ( i.e. the VIP customer would have to make two separate payments, one to the dancer and the other to the club ).
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose rules limiting the types of costumes dancers wear, rules limiting the types of music dancers play, rules requiring / limiting the type and number of stage dances that dancers must / can perform, rules REQUIRING that dancers 'contribute' a portion of their earnings to DJ / housemom / bouncers etc.
Putting yourself in the place of a clubowner, try to imagine just how difficult it might be to successfully operate a club ... let alone operate a CHAIN of clubs ... under the above circumstances.
lynn2009
07-19-2013, 04:35 AM
Thanks melonie...that does all make sense. though if independent contractors are really supposed to be treated that freely...wow.
Melonie
07-19-2013, 09:47 AM
^^^ well that is an amalgamation of independent contractor versus 'employee' treatment legal points which have been previously ruled on in prior state Dept of Labor cases.
Also, besides those 'black and white' issues, there are additional issues that fall into gray areas. Consider this ... if the club is 'renting' the VIP room to private parties with no direct 'employment' relationship existing between those private parties and the club, the club may not have legal responsibility, or even a legal right, to surveil / monitor what is taking place between those private parties and/or to take action should something 'illegal' be taking place in the privacy of that rented VIP room. Also consider this ... since independent contractor dancers are not 'employees' of the club, a gray area exists as to whether the club has any legal responsibility to verify that said independent contractor dancers have legal US work status or not ( with that legal responsibility instead lying with the self-employed 'business entity' that the private contractor dancer works for ).
Bottom line regarding the whole topic is this. Up until the ObamaCare law introduced major new clubowner IRS 'fines' for failure to provide health insurance coverage for 'full time employee' dancers, clubowners attempting to mis-classify dancers as independent contractors, and at the same time clubowners attempting to enforce 'employee' level club rules, scheduling, etc., provided a lot of 'benefits' to the clubowner versus comparatively minor consequences if and when the mis-classification was challenged in court ( by dancer lawsuits ) - basically amounting to having to pay out $2.95 per hour * perhaps 1000 hours in settlement money for mis-classified dancers.
The advent of ( retroactive ) ObamaCare IRS penalties if a clubowner fails to provide health insurance coverage for 'full time employee' dancers now raises the potential consequences if mis-classification is challenged in court ( by dancers, by state DOL's, by the IRS ??? ) to instant bankruptcy levels. Where privately owned clubs or chain clubs are concerned, the potential penalties for losing a future independent contractor versus 'employee' dancer lawsuit could / would now bring with it a $3000 per dancer per year IRS penalty that is retroactive from whatever future year the dancer lawsuit is actually ruled on all the way back to the year when the ObamaCare law originally takes effect ( or the date the dancer was first 'hired', if after the ObamaCare law has taken effect ). And if the IRS is unwilling to 'settle' in regard to the ObamaCare penalties owed, even if the dancers ARE willing to 'settle', the $2.95 per hour owed to 'employee' dancers could then extend to actual hours the dancers worked i.e. 2000 hours per year * 3 years that the lawsuit drags on (or whatever).
Chain clubs obviously have attorneys and accountants who have worked through all of the 'what if' scenarios regarding the possible negative financial consequences of future 'employee' mis-classification lawsuits. It is highly probable that other chain clubs will adopt changes similar to those that SR has instituted. Privately owned clubs have probably not yet worked through all of the 'what if' scenarios, though, so we may see a LARGE number of 'employee' mis-classification lawsuits being brought by dancers during the next couple of years ( since those suing dancers would stand to receive FAR more money if the IRS blocks the possibility of a settlement ), as well as a LARGE number of privately owned club closures / bankruptcies.
My gut tells me that the 'down the road' result of these changes will be this. Chain clubs will treat dancers as 'employees', enforce rules and schedules, and come to dominate the 'upscale' segment of the strip club business. Certain privately owned clubs will continue to treat dancers as independent contractors, will ( illegally ) attempt to enforce 'employee' level rules and schedules and dancer fees / tipouts / percentages, and will attempt to otherwise maximize club income ( allowing 'extras' etc. ), with the clear knowledge that, sooner or later, they will be 'caught' and the club will wind up being closed ( after all a clubowner allowing 'extras' now essentially carries no additional penalty for the clubowner, and probably does not increase the risk that the club will eventually be closed down versus the risk of future dancer lawsuits, the DOL, or the IRS closing the club down by bankruptcy ).
charlotte.
07-19-2013, 03:28 PM
this is a fair question. The answer should be fairly obvious though given the following realities about independent contractor status ...
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstance, clubs cannot impose set price levels that dancers must charge customers for a particular service. Thus one independent contractor dancer would be free to charge $10 per private dance while others charged $20.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose set working days or hours for dancers. Thus a club could have 2 dancers working on Monday and 100 dancers working on Friday.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot collect / retain a 'percentage' of customer money charged by dancers. The club can / must levee a fixed charge to dancers and customers for 'rent' of club facilities. This could translate into dancers being charged a relatively high fixed dollar amount nightly 'rental' fee ( where it then becomes possible for dancers who didn't sell many private dances to leave the club 'in the hole' at the end of the night ), as well as customers being charged a 'rental' fee by the club for VIP rooms etc. that is independent of amounts charged to customers by dancers for time in VIP ( i.e. the VIP customer would have to make two separate payments, one to the dancer and the other to the club ).
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose rules limiting the types of costumes dancers wear, rules limiting the types of music dancers play, rules requiring / limiting the type and number of stage dances that dancers must / can perform, rules REQUIRING that dancers 'contribute' a portion of their earnings to DJ / housemom / bouncers etc.
Putting yourself in the place of a clubowner, try to imagine just how difficult it might be to successfully operate a club ... let alone operate a CHAIN of clubs ... under the above circumstances.
aside from the set prices, thats how sr lv operated before the change.
Climber
07-20-2013, 03:07 AM
Why not give a choice between employee and contractor like Hustler, and give girls a choice? Not all of us want the benefits. I personally am a vet and have VA benefits. But if other girls want it, can't they choose? I also LOVE being my own boss and setting my own hours. And I do my taxes. This whole thing just makes me sick.
How the hell are they gonna force ppl to work 30 hours a week? Some of us are trying to transition into other businesses or travel to other places to dance. I really wouldn't mind the reporting and such tax-wise on the forms...it's just being treated like and employee doing this makes it not worth it. It may be riskier to be self-employed, but that is the beauty of freedom. The more you put in, the more u get out of it. A girl who doesn't take care of herself tends to make less than a girl who does, etc. It is like putting more into your own business. It is competition and keeps us all working hard to please the custies. If everyone got the same hourly...well guys, get ready for a DMV experience at the strip club. Have fun.
I like free enterprise. And I am sick and tired of the government punishing small businesses and rewarding large ones.
I'm just glad this has not happened where I dance. And when it does I just hope the hours will stay the same and we just need to report more...not too many other changes
Melonie
07-20-2013, 03:48 AM
aside from the set prices, thats how sr lv operated before the change.
So you weren't required to pay tip-outs to djays / bouncers ??? So you could go onstage wearing Dominatrix gear and dance to country-western music if you wanted to ... or were free to decide that you simply didn't feel like going on stage at all ( without being penalized ) ???
Admittedly SR's club rules and dancer treatment is much closer to independent contractor standards than many other clubs that enforce dancer schedules, that collect a percentage of dancer earnings, etc. However, as the SR lawsuit progressed, the judge published 'opinions' that indicated SR still fell short of true independent contractor treatment. This resulted in SR accepting a settlement offer which classified SR dancers as 'employees', which would NOT have been accepted if there was a reasonable chance the judge would rule that SR's dancers were being treated with the required level of freedom to truly be classified as independent contractors.
And this in turn means that other clubs / chains now know that they have essentially zero chance of a judge finding that their even stricter treatment of dancers warrants independent contractor classification versus dancers being 'employees'. So, as I mentioned earlier, this now leads to a dilemma. Clubs can start treating dancers as 'employees' now, or they can continue to operate mis-classifying dancers as independent contractors and accept the risk that a future dancer lawsuit, DOL investigation, IRS investigation etc. will eventually bankrupt the club by triggering 'employee' health insurance IRS fines, 'employee' minimum wage back payments to dancers, etc. Privately owned clubs may be in a position to accept such risk, but for sure corporate chain clubs with fiduciary duties to stockholders are not !!!
Unfortunately for the 'rest of us', a condition of the SR settlement was that neither party could publicly discuss settlement details for a period of time after the settlement was signed. I think that this 'gag order' provision expires this coming November. At that point, other clubs will have a lot more 'facts' available upon which to base their own future courses.
Climber
07-20-2013, 04:14 AM
what if they came up with a special class of contractor for entertainers? Is there anywhere we can send petitions or something? Asking the IRS to make some sort of classification for us as contractors but having to still operate under certain club rules like we do? Just for the future in case this stuff spreads
charlotte.
07-20-2013, 04:24 AM
no, there were no mandatory tip outs. mandatory tip outs are more of a east coast thing, I don't think ive worked at any here that have them. they play all genres of music and do their best to play what you want within reason. maybe a specific song isnt okay but ive heard country rock played. they also play a lot more rap than other vegas clubs which is rare in general for a high class club. you can choose to pay beforehand to go offstage. some nights I don't get called at all tho since there are so many girls and vip takes you off. girls wear everything here. ive seen dominatrix, see thru (technically against the rules/law but they allow it), ugly micro outfits, super urban outfits, pants, full body suits, all sorts of shoes including granny wedges and flats, you get my drift. I wish they had more rules about outfits because a lot of the girls bring the quality of the club down. their "independent contractor freedoms" that ppl seem to love so much make the club look trashy and hurt everyones money.
but this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two. those of us who are left can stick together and get to know each other a little better which will help everyone. everyone who wants to come here for a weekend to get drunk, undercut us, treat the staff like shit and leave early with customers can go to sapphire!!!
Melonie
07-20-2013, 04:26 AM
what if they came up with a special class of contractor for entertainers? Is there anywhere we can send petitions or something?
yeah Washington DC plus every state capital - and good luck - because nobody else is likely to support such a position.
Fact #1 is that the new ObamaCare law relies on strict classifications of 'full time employees', 'part time employees', self-employed persons etc., as these different classifications affect eligibility for subsidized health insurance coverage, affect who gets assessed with new IRS penalties for failure to purchase / provide health insurance coverage etc.
Fact #2 is that the federal and state gov't tax agencies, labor unions etc. all have a vested interest in seeing dancers treated as employees, since this will result in greater tax collections, greater contributions to social security, greater contributions to unemployment and disability insurance funds, potential new source of union dues, etc. See .
this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two
Ultimately, you'll find out around next April 15th when you are actually able to see how much after-tax income you still have left. Yes employee status is not without some benefits. But when it goes back to basics, with club customers spending the same amount of money, and money now being 'diverted' for the first time to unemployment insurance premiums, payroll processing services, health insurance premium subsidies etc. the math says that employee dancer earnings can only decline.
Also, by next April 15th you'll also be able to see how a club having the 'same' group of employee dancers ... and no longer having a steady stream of 'new girls' popping in and out ... affects customer attendance / customer spending. This probably won't be much of a factor given that the Vegas club customer base has a high percentage of tourists. However, it could be a huge factor at sister clubs located in cities with much lower levels of tourism that rely on a local customer base.
Climber
07-20-2013, 04:35 AM
no, there were no mandatory tip outs. mandatory tip outs are more of a east coast thing, I don't think ive worked at any here that have them. they play all genres of music and do their best to play what you want within reason. maybe a specific song isnt okay but ive heard country rock played. they also play a lot more rap than other vegas clubs which is rare in general for a high class club. you can choose to pay beforehand to go offstage. some nights I don't get called at all tho since there are so many girls and vip takes you off. girls wear everything here. ive seen dominatrix, see thru (technically against the rules/law but they allow it), ugly micro outfits, super urban outfits, pants, full body suits, all sorts of shoes including granny wedges and flats, you get my drift. I wish they had more rules about outfits because a lot of the girls bring the quality of the club down. their "independent contractor freedoms" that ppl seem to love so much make the club look trashy and hurt everyones money.
but this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two. those of us who are left can stick together and get to know each other a little better which will help everyone. everyone who wants to come here for a weekend to get drunk, undercut us, treat the staff like shit and leave early with customers can go to sapphire!!!
Okay. I'm glad to hear it has worked out well for you. If I may ask, has it effected your money much? Are you still able to hustle and earn like before?