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Eric Stoner
09-11-2013, 10:23 AM
It is my understanding the opposite is true. I read an interesting book on the subject call, "Lies my Teacher Told Me".

I think that depends WHERE we are talking about. Some states like Texas , which is STILL infected by the ignorance and bias of the Gablers ( who are both long dead , Thank God ! - just read the Wikipedia bio of Mel Gabler and be prepared to cringe ! ) are probably likely to pass over how badly we treated Native Americans. You can throw in a lot of the South , Arizona and some conservative hot beds. In most "blue" states at least , they often go too far in the opposite direction e.g. " Native Americans were peaceful and peace loving until the white man came along ." Almost every history textbook used in elementary , middle and high school is not worthy of the term "history ". Although the one we used in my AP History class wasn't bad but that was a COLLEGE textbook used in a senior H.S. class. It's no secret that I LOVE history and nothing makes me sadder than the historical illiteracy of the average high schooler in the U.S. Afaic facts are facts. If it happened it happened. Unpleasant facts ( many Founding Fathers owned slaves; FDR did nothing to help European Jews during W.W. II , the U.S. committed war crimes during W.W. II etc. ) can sometimes be explained but they shouldn't be avoided altogether.

Kellydancer
09-11-2013, 12:23 PM
Very true. I was reading recently a book about the Japanese Americans who were interned during WW2 and was horrified by what they dealt with. Yes we were at war with Japan but many of these Japanese were American born and had as much in common with Japan as a white person who had a long dead ancestor from another country.

eagle2
09-11-2013, 12:38 PM
and some of those Japanese in internment camps had sons fighting against the Nazis in Europe.

Kellydancer
09-11-2013, 12:40 PM
Very true Eagle. In fact I remember hearing about a couple who lost two sons in battle and had a third also fighting. It was pure racism because then why weren't German or Italian Americans interned? I think we all know why.

lestat1
09-11-2013, 01:35 PM
I like this idea!

1) That electrons "jump" from valence ring to valence ring. Wrong: they "teleport" by appearing and reappearing. Blew my mind.
2) That feminism had achieved equality already and for all purposes men and women were already equal citizens.
3) That we live in a "democracy".
4) That knowledge/intelligence is more important than money.
5) That capitalism "is the system that benefits the most people worldwide".

For (3) I think you mean to say "direct democracy." The US is a representative democracy, a republic, and a federation. The terms refer to different aspects of government and are not mutually exclusive.

lestat1
09-11-2013, 03:56 PM
ok, there is your faith then. It isn't provable or there wouldn't be speculation about how many dimensions there are.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

^ I love that site. It saves me a lot of time. Anyway, that's a false dichotomy. Of course something can be proven and there can still be speculation about it. That 5 divided by 2 equals 2.5 is as proven as anything can be proven, but I've had people argue with me over it (side note: I'm so glad I don't work retail anymore).

jjk
09-11-2013, 06:24 PM
String theorist can explore the world view that there are 11 or more dimensions because they know that nobody can prove they are wrong. They are aware of the assumptions that everyone else do not even notice.

They can be proven wrong by showing Loop quantum gravity ,which doesn't need those extra dimensions, is correct or if we never find evidence for extra dimensions then that is evidence that they don't exist

Its like the aether theories. They spent years trying to find it and failed then tried to say it exists but it is impossible to find then one day Einstein shows up with said the real reason why we cant find it is because it doesn't exist

Eric Stoner
09-12-2013, 07:07 AM
lestat1 I think we are on the same side of the argument. The lie that schools perpetuate is the implication that science does not require faith. I am restricting my argument to one branch of philosophy (science) and say it is based upon assumptions. You are taking it even further and saying all of reality requires faith. We are on the same side, we just have a different scope.

jjk - 2 years and this is your fourth post? So you have been waiting for a discussion on the fabric of the universe? lol, ok if they ever prove LQG I admit we will be much closer to eliminating 'faith' from science but it will still be required. Assumptions are at the edges of knowledge, they will always be around.

Moving on from this topic.....

Eric, you like history. This isn't exactly a school lie but in school when they discussed Nazi blitzkrieg they emphasized the tactic (wasn't actually an innovation) but did not mention that the German troops were fast because they were cranked up on Methamphetamine. No wonder the government got so interested in drug research after WWII.

That is true - German troops who invaded France , Holland and Belgium in W.W. II were issued Benzedrine. Many later recounted that they didn't sleep for 2 and 3 days at a time. It was one reason why they were able to advance so far and so fast.

Eric Stoner
09-12-2013, 07:15 AM
Very true Eagle. In fact I remember hearing about a couple who lost two sons in battle and had a third also fighting. It was pure racism because then why weren't German or Italian Americans interned? I think we all know why.

German and Italian American CITIZENS were not interned in the U.S. Japanese American citizens were interned.
German and Italian Aliens were interned.
There was one exception. About 50 members of the German American Bund were arrested and confined during the war. A few had their citizenship revoked and were deported to Germany after the war.
Almost all the Italian interns were released by the end of 1943. Italy had surrendered and was a co-belligerent by then.

Kellydancer
09-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Right, the citizens of German and Italian descent were not interned, which to me was wrong. It seemed like Japanese Americans were singled out.

Eric Stoner
09-12-2013, 12:57 PM
Right, the citizens of German and Italian descent were not interned, which to me was wrong. It seemed like Japanese Americans were singled out.

They were. Roosevelt knew better but ordered their internment anyway based on national politics , not military necessity.

Kellydancer
09-12-2013, 01:30 PM
Speaking of which, schools were taught FDR was such a great guy when he had a lot of negative aspects of him. Also, related to that school children are probably not taught that when Hitler came to power many Americans were happy with him and many American businesses worked with him.

Melonie
09-12-2013, 01:40 PM
circling back to the 'lies' aspect ... including 'lies of omission'


(snip)One half of employed Japanese-Americans on the West Coast were in agriculture. They were the largest force in California's fruit and vegetable markets; agricultural experts expected thirty-five percent of California's 1942 truck crops to come from Japanese-Americans.1 Japanese-American farms in 1940 were worth $72 million plus $6 million in equipment. Per acre their farms were worth $279.96, in contrast to the average value of $37.94 for all California farms. "I find no popular demand for the efforts to drive the so-called alien enemies from California," said one indignant attorney. "The clamor seems to come from chambers of commerce, Associated Farmers, and the newspapers notorious as spokesmen for reactionary interests. In view of this fact, effort should be made to determine whether there is any connection between the clamor for the dispossession of the Japanese farmers and the desire of these clamoring interests to get possession of the Japanese farms and the elimination of the Japanese competition."2 The attorney's analysis was shared by others. "The great cry of 'Kick the Japanese out of the Yakima Valley' is not due to fear of sabotage, it is due to economic reasons. As one person naively explained to me, 'The white farmer would have more land and more water if he could get rid of the Japanese, and he could demand a higher price for his farm produce.'"3

An editorial in Christian Century warned against "action whose real end is the destruction of Japanese competitors of American firms."4 The Japanese-American Citizens League in Seattle reported "agitation being conducted by interests which would profit from removal of Japanese."5 The Grower-Shipper Vegetable Association was frank on this point: "If all the Japs were removed tomorrow, we'd never miss them in two weeks, because the white farmers can take over and produce everything the Jap grows. And we don't want them back when the war ends, either."6 Attorney General Francis Biddle told President Roosevelt, "Various special interests would welcome their [Japanese-American] removal from good farm land and the elimination of their competition."7 Said one Monterey County farmer about the exodus of Japanese-Americans, "We can go out to our American farmers and from a patriotic standpoint, if nothing else, get them to take up any part of the acreage that the canners deem sufficient or necessary to maintain California's position in the production of canned tomatos."8 The California Evacuated Farms Association of the U.S. Farm Security Administration helped farmers acquire property of Japanese-American competitors. This help apparently included "special loans."9 A victim described how such loans could work. "Negotiations were made through the Farm Security Administration to then sell the crop and all farm equipment to a Caucasian. A loan was secured by this Caucasian to pay Manhichi for the agreed price. Before the loan arrived, Manhichi was sent to the Walerga Assembly Center [a minimum security prison]. The Caucasian . . . returned the loan to the Farm Security Administration, clearing himself of his debt. . . . To this day, my dad never received a penny from that particular sale." (snip)

from


Given the fact that it took 50+ years worth of tireless legal and lobbying efforts by interned Japanese American citizens and their families to reach the point where the actual circumstances were at least partially made public, thus finally forcing the 'truth' to be at least partially acknowledged and taught, one can only imagine what other 'truths' continue to be obscured and/or ignored in today's public school curricula.

Eric Stoner
09-13-2013, 08:10 AM
Speaking of which, schools were taught FDR was such a great guy when he had a lot of negative aspects of him. Also, related to that school children are probably not taught that when Hitler came to power many Americans were happy with him and many American businesses worked with him.

What President was perfect ? All had their flaws and made mistakes. For me, FDR was a great politician and a fair to middling President. I think too many historians overrate him as a President. As a war leader he was better than he was in peacetime.
Most of his Depression policies failed. Most , not all.
Before the U.S. officially entered the war he did what was necessary to help Britain when she stood alone against the Nazis.
As a war leader he went along with illegal and unconstitutional internment of citizens. But he kept up morale and MOST of his domestic policies during W.W. II worked.
He was gutless on integration of the armed services but he did go along with integrating war industries.
For the most part he picked excellent leaders like Marshall , King , Leahy , Nimitz and Eisenhower and let them do their jobs with minimal interference.
He listened to Churchill too much and went along with too many of his wacky ideas - invading Italy being first among them.
He was fixated on China and let Chiang and the China Lobby bamboozle him into wasting men and material that Chiang mostly stockpiled to fight the Commies rather than use against the Japanese. Nobody did less with more during W.W. II than Chiang and the Nationalists. One reason "Market-Garden" failed in 1944 was the Allies were short of transport aircraft and pilots. A lot of them crashed in the Himalayas trying to supply Chiang.
A great book on this very subject is Persico's "Roosevelt's Centurions ". He goes into these and other issues and has done a very good analysis of FDR as a war leader. On balance I give FDR a B+ for his leadership during W.W. II and a C for everything else.

Kellydancer
09-13-2013, 10:45 AM
That's the problem, there will never be a perfect president because there is no such thing as a perfect president. I actually do admire FDR and Eleanor is one of my favorite first ladies but while he is seen as a liberal icon (and rightfully so)other aspects aren't that admirable. I have read interesting studies on him and one of the things that struck me is the fact that he never intended the welfare system to be what it has become. I found that somewhat interesting because he started all these programs during the Great Depression to save people yet many of them took a different turn. Not saying that's good or bad (and that will become heavily political)just different.

Eric Stoner
09-13-2013, 10:53 AM
That's the problem, there will never be a perfect president because there is no such thing as a perfect president. I actually do admire FDR and Eleanor is one of my favorite first ladies but while he is seen as a liberal icon (and rightfully so)other aspects aren't that admirable. I have read interesting studies on him and one of the things that struck me is the fact that he never intended the welfare system to be what it has become. I found that somewhat interesting because he started all these programs during the Great Depression to save people yet many of them took a different turn. Not saying that's good or bad (and that will become heavily political)just different.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is very fickle in its application. It is hard to blame FDR for some of what happened after he tried to help a prostrate economy. The Fed was just as responsible as he was for the long term effects of certain policies.

Kellydancer
09-13-2013, 11:32 AM
True but as president FDR will be blamed just as any president will be for things that happened during their administration. I'm forgetting right now, but was it FDR or Truman who integrated the military? for some reason I believe even during WW2 there were white and black boot camps and things like that. That integration happened was a good thing of course.

Eric Stoner
09-13-2013, 12:32 PM
^^^ There WAS a small amount of integration toward the end of W.W. II, no thanks to FDR. Combat necessity during the Battle of the Bulge and on Okinawa caused black troops to be used as emergency replacement infantrymen and they served alongside white soldiers. Eisenhower's Deputy Commander at SHAEF , a General Lee ironically , was a strong proponent of integration and won out over Ike's Chief of Staff , Bedell Smith , to force some minor integration.

But overall we treated German POW's better than we did black soldiers. Especially in the South.

Truman officially integrated the Armed Services by Executive Order around 1947.

Kellydancer
09-13-2013, 12:43 PM
Very true but sad how the POW's were treated better. I read about one of the Tuskegee Airman and how he came back after being a hero was an severely discriminated against. That always bothered me because they served their country but then were treated like trash. I'm glad many of these guys are now getting the recognition they deserve.

LilyAnderson
09-14-2013, 07:45 PM
The biggest lie I was taught in school:
"You can be whatever you want to be."

SURE, I want to be an artist. How can I do that when I can't even draw a decent stick figure.

Selina M
09-15-2013, 03:11 PM
The biggest lie I was taught in school:
"You can be whatever you want to be."

SURE, I want to be an artist. How can I do that when I can't even draw a decent stick figure.

Haha! Basically! I wanted to be a musician but I'm a visual person, not auditory... wasn't gonna happen, haha.

Never mind that you can't be whatever you want unless it makes a decent salary or you've got a trust fund... nobody ever told us about money in childhood!

Flickdreams
09-16-2013, 01:59 AM
^ I didn't pay enough attention to learn any lies...

BlkSharpie
09-16-2013, 02:19 AM
That Im going to be someones boss one day :D

I was such a hokey awkward nerdy kid, always got picked on and up through middle school even my teachers would warn kids to be nice to me cause its kids like me who will grow up to sign their paychecks. And I would be thinking...oh gawd I hope not, I dont want to have to spend the rest of my life dealing with these idiots..I just want to be left alone lol

The other lie...the Food Pyramid. EAT MOAR CARBS! Actually Im still totally down with the food pyramid if only the alcohol wasnt at the very top. That needs to be moved down a bit.

Hrmmm..what else, its already been mentioned but that whole, do good in school and go to college so you can get a good job thing. Yeah, of all my friends who busted their butts, only one of them got a rediculously amazing job. Most of my friends with awesome jobs either dropped out of college or didnt go at all. Im the only one of my uber nerdy friends who didnt go to college...and the only one who doesnt have debt that will follow me for the rest of my life because of it. My best friend, in her mid 30's, is at peace with it that she will die of old age and still carry a balance on her college loans.

Sorry I cant think of any of the intellectual lies I was told...I studied to pass my tests then forgot it all.
The only classes I actually paid any attention in were art, math and english / english lit.

!TheOne
09-16-2013, 10:40 AM
Lie: "There is no 'I' in 'team'"
Reality: Every team has one person who leads (and takes the fall).

Lie: "Answer the question you were asked!"
Reality: Answer the question you wish you were asked.

Lie: "Don't ignore people / Pay attention"
Reality: Ignore anyone you want to.

Lie: "Don't be rude to people!"
Reality: Stop worrying about how others perceive you.

Lie: "Don't show off / Play down your achievements"
Reality: Standout and be conspicuous.

Lie: "Nice guys prosper/win / get the girl etc..."
Reality: The guy who knows WHEN to be nice, and when not to be nice is the one who prospers.

I'm not sure why, but in the UK they teach you Religious Studies for the first couple of years of high school. Not sure how many lies in total that counts for since I made sure not to take it in.

!TheOne

Money_Worshipper
09-16-2013, 11:06 AM
LIES:

"Be good. God is always watching you."

"Always be nice to people so they will like you" Be a doormat and people will take advantage. just be yourself

"If you don't go to college, you will be a beggar on the streets"

"A real lady plays hard to get with men"

Melonie
09-20-2013, 03:22 AM
this 'lie' now being widely taught has just hit the news ...


(snip)"The authors of "United States History: Preparing for the Advanced Placement Examination" have taken it upon themselves to change the Constitution of the United States. The high school textbook contains a summary of each Amendment that alters the initial intent in which they were created.

The textbook notes the Second Amendment as, "The people have a right to keep and bear arms in a state militia."(snip)

from

Eric Stoner
09-20-2013, 08:07 AM
Must we ? While you are correct that the authors have reworded the text of the Second Amendment , arguing over the wording of that Amendment tends to generate smoke and heat but little light. Gun control advocates will never agree with the historical underpinnings and background of that Amendment. Which leads to a whole discussion of "original intent' vs. flexible interpretation to fit changing times which will quickly lead to discussion of varying political philosophies. Before you know it , this thread will be forced to wear the Scarlet "P" for politics and will be shut down. Which is the long way of saying : Let's not go there.

Melonie
09-20-2013, 09:33 AM
Where gov't mandates regarding public school curricula are concerned, yes we must !!! From


(snip)"New national science standards that make the teaching of global warming part of the public school curriculum are slated to be released this month, potentially ending an era in which climate skepticism has been allowed to seep into the nation's classrooms.

The Next Generation Science Standards were developed by the National Research Council, the National Science Teachers Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the nonprofit Achieve and more than two dozen states. The latest draft recommends that educators teach the evidence for man-made climate change starting as early as elementary school and incorporate it into all science classes, ranging from earth science to chemistry"(snip)


Please understand that I'm not trying to turn this thread political. I am merely pointing out that 'the whole truth' is often lacking from gov't approved textbooks and curricula !

Eric Stoner
09-20-2013, 11:19 AM
We KNOW That Mel ! Anybody with a brain and anything resembling an open mind knows full well how education has been polluted by politics. As I have repeatedly pointed out , just as much mischief has been perpetrated by so - called conservatives like the late ( and unlamented , at least by me ) Gablers in Texas. The ignorance and bias the Gablers imposed on Texas was not limited to that state. Because Texas buys textbooks state -wide and is a huge market for publishers , the clout of those two poorly educated nit-wits was far greater than any influence they were otherwise entitled to. By objecting to various things they didn't like in history and science texts the Gablers helped promote a national "dumb -down " in school textbooks. While initially sympathetic to some of their complaints , Bill Buckley recognized how stupid and ignorant they were and realized how much damage they were doing to public education. Cal Thomas used to love to trot around and complain that bookstores were hiding his books ; that they weren't displayed as prominently as other more secular works. What he DIDN'T say was how many books he sold altogether . Even with the help of evangelical churches etc. , his sales sucked. Contrast that to the sales success of the "Left Behind " Christers, Tim LaHaye and Larry Jenkins who have been laughing all the way to the bank for over a decade. Lack of "prominent display" at Borders and Barnes & Noble never affected their sales. Mark Levin's books never get reviewed by the N.Y. Times but they are perennial best-sellers. But I digress.

It is a rare course , a rare teacher, a rare curriculum that includes "the whole truth " ; that does not advocate ; that does not try to indoctrinate ; that promotes a balance of views. I was exposed to that sort of pedagogy throughout public school and to a lesser degree in college and grad school. I turned out all right. So have a lot of other people.
I look back now and can't help reflect on how ignorant some of my teachers were. So what ? A big difference maker was my mother who encouraged me to R E A D !

As for Climate Change, the deniers and skeptics have their work cut out for them , don't they ?

Melonie
09-20-2013, 11:45 AM
^^^ if your question refers to climate skeptics being able to have their position discussed side by side with the new officially gov't sanctioned National Science Standards edict to teach human induced carbon dioxide emissions 'theory' as fact in public school classrooms, then indeed they have their work cut out for them. If, however, your question refers to climate skeptics being able to make a factual case in support of their position outside of US public schools ... a la ... that is a different matter entirely - and one that is arguably beyond the scope of this thread.



It is a rare course , a rare teacher, a rare curriculum that includes "the whole truth " ; that does not advocate ; that does not try to indoctrinate ; that promotes a balance of views. I was exposed to that sort of pedagogy throughout public school and to a lesser degree in college and grad school. I turned out all right. So have a lot of other people.

Yes, but ... an increasing share of future US voters are dropping out of public high school, graduating from public high school, graduating from gov't run colleges, etc. with a large share of 'indoctrination' and little motivation from parents or from within themselves to perform independent research which might separate 'indoctrination' from 'the whole truth'. Apparently, there is far less 'indoctrination in Australia than in the USA ... see

Eric Stoner
09-20-2013, 12:13 PM
Regarding "climate change" I was referring to BOTH.

As for your second point, we might be able to add scientific ignorance to historical illiteracy. Both are certainly lamentable.

Kellydancer
09-20-2013, 01:34 PM
This is getting too political and while I agree with both of you, I think that that is the problem with public schools. I posted earlier about my experiences going to school in Cook County and how biased it really is. I didn't post everything I saw in school because it would really get political but that's the problem with public schooling. Private schooling though is often biased depending on why it's private such as religious or artistic.

Djoser
09-20-2013, 02:02 PM
The role of the French in the winning of the Revolutionary war, which has been blithely ignored. Specifically the much maligned French Navy's role. The Battle of Chesapeake Bay was certainly not a brilliant victory, or even decisive in a tactical sense--but it sealed the fate of the British in Yorktown, allowed substantial French land forces to aid the rebels; and thus it basically won the war.

So the next time some idiot laughs at the French & goes on about what cowards they have been, you can laugh a little harder at their historical ignorance and lack of appreciation for their own freedom.

Not even getting into the battle of Tours won by Charles Martel (the Hammer) when no one else could stop the Moslems, Charlemagne, the role of the French in the only really successful Crusade (the first), or of course La Grande Armee of Napoleon.

While it's true the French didn't do so well in the last century's wars, it was no lack of bravery. They were up against the vastly superior German artillery in WW I, and the vastly superior use of combined arms in WW II. The German tanks were no better than the French, they just knew how to use what they had in coordination with airpower and the amazingly effective German infantry.

r2468
09-20-2013, 05:57 PM
I remember my primary school teacher telling us

1. we are heading to an ice age
2. you pay taxes while you work and then the government looks after you when you're old

Djoser
09-20-2013, 06:21 PM
Well the fact of the matter is that the Earth naturally goes through periodic 'Ice Ages', so that is no lie. Another Ice Age is in fact inevitable--it's just a matter of how many thousands or millions of years. If we are even around anymore at that point, which is questionable given the history of the various species of animals on Earth.

Unless of course Mankind fucks that all up with the incredible amount of pollution we have been releasing, which is entirely likely. I don't think it's political at all to say that is undeniable (the release of disgusting amounts of pollution, not the exact effect) to anyone sane.

And if that stirs up any controversy, I will certainly apologize, take the blame myself, and close this fucking thread immediately.

BlkSharpie
09-20-2013, 08:25 PM
I remember my primary school teacher telling us

1. we are heading to an ice age
2. you pay taxes while you work and then the government looks after you when you're old

Wooow you must be really old! :D I jest...seriously, even when I was in middle school 20yrs ago, my teachers were all, there will be no SS left for you, so you better start figuring out how to pay for your own old age when the time comes. That I can say is something that I grew up with.

eagle2
09-20-2013, 08:39 PM
The role of the French in the winning of the Revolutionary war, which has been blithely ignored. Specifically the much maligned French Navy's role. The Battle of Chesapeake Bay was certainly not a brilliant victory, or even decisive in a tactical sense--but it sealed the fate of the British in Yorktown, allowed substantial French land forces to aid the rebels; and thus it basically won the war.


The French also supplied the colonists with a significant amount of weapons and gunpowder.

Djoser
09-20-2013, 09:05 PM
^^^Yeah I was aware of that but didn't want to get carried away with the post. But thanks!

They also provided John Paul Jones with the Bonhomme Richard, in which he made such magnificent history. But that was a dubious favor lol--the ship was not in such great shape and one of the only few bigger cannon on her blew up immediately, doing a lot of damage and causing many casualties. The Serapis was a much more powerful ship, and anyone else but Jones probably wouldn't even have fought her--much less had the will to win the fight.


Another historical fact which is blithely ignored in most schools is that the Russians took on a much greater proportion of the German army in World War II than the US. Since they were communist apparently that looks bad, I don't know--plus maybe excessive nationalist pride going on there. Though we did supply the Russians with the majority of their trucks, so they could build thousands of tanks and overwhelm the Germans at their own game of mechanized warfare. Not to mention we gave them untold thousands of aircraft, boots, rations, raw materials for war production, etc. The Germans didn't really think much of the US soldiers (other than the Airborne), though they did respect Patton, and the amazing resources the US Army had, like many, many thousands more tanks, artillery, shells to fire, etc.

They also don't like to talk about the fact that our allies the Russians had actually been allied with Hitler (until he stabbed them in the back), and invaded Poland from the other side.

Kellydancer
09-20-2013, 09:30 PM
Very true. Had the Nazis had stabbed them in the back I wonder what would have happened. Reminds me of the fact that many people admired Hitler when he came to power in the USA.

Melonie
09-21-2013, 01:11 AM
“History is written by the victors.”

― Winston Churchill


"We will go down in history either as the world's greatest statesmen or its worst villains."

- Hermann Goring



Private schooling though is often biased depending on why it's private such as religious or artistic.

Ironically, this observation brings us full circle. However, I am still of the opinion that certain private schools ... with the best example probably being the Ivy League and associated prep schools ... do in fact teach more of 'the whole truth' regarding how the world really works. This of course is due to the fact that the graduates of these private schools will in fact play a large part in 'running the world' of the future !!!

Djoser
09-21-2013, 02:41 AM
Yeah the college I went to had a whole bunch of those prep school grads. They were very well educated compared to the public school grads. And they were destined for the Power Elite.

Djoser
09-21-2013, 02:46 AM
Very true. Had the Nazis had stabbed them in the back I wonder what would have happened. Reminds me of the fact that many people admired Hitler when he came to power in the USA.

Henry Ford was one of them. I recently read a book about it. Also Charles Lindbergh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hermann_Goering_gives_Charles_Lindbergh_a_Naz i_medal.jpg

As far as the Russo-German alliance in the first year or two of WW II, it was not destined to last--and both sides knew it. They were both building their strength for the inevitable clash. However Stalin was taken very much by surprise at the timing and refused to believe the many warning signs he was about to be attacked.

Melonie
09-21-2013, 03:16 AM
actually, a number of facts point to a conclusion that certain influential Americans were responsible for helping to bring Hitler to power !!! Also, a number of the basic principles behind Hitler's most heinous policies were arguably of American origin !



We'll NEVER see this material in a public school curriculum !!!


And, ironically, a Lindbergh quote from the link above again brings us back to the topic of this thread ...

Lindbergh wrote Davison. "Are we deluding ourselves when we attempt to run our governments by counting the number of heads, without a thought of what lies within them?"

Djoser
09-21-2013, 08:38 AM
Eh, I don't think we can blame the US for Hitler's genocidal program. Even if there was some possible inspiration from outside, he would have come up with it on his own anyway.

FasaCorp
09-21-2013, 09:21 AM
One of the lies I was taught? That the Axis powers (specifically Germany) were stopped because they were "evil". Wrong. They were stopped because they were too overtly Fascist. They were not subtle enough for modern Western civilization standards. The West, basically, was Authoritarian/Fascist using the guise of "Free Trade" to promote its legitimacy. In other words we are a "benevolent fascist society". Nazi Germany was simply "too fascist" because that kind of overt fascism was already outdated.

Melonie
09-21-2013, 10:43 AM
^^^ in terms of 'the whole truth' , it arguably boils down to one single decision which decided the fate of WW2. That decision wasn't even made by Germany, but by Japan ... who decided to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th 1941 instead of (re)attacking the Russians in Manchuria in the summer of 1941 ( see Nomonhan Incident a.k.a. battle of Khalkhin Gol ). Had Russia faced a war on two fronts in 1941, and had the entry of the USA into WW2 been delayed by just a few more months ...

Djoser
09-21-2013, 01:29 PM
^^^Ah yes, Zhukov's training ground...

Flickdreams
09-21-2013, 11:17 PM
^^^Yeah I was aware of that but didn't want to get carried away with the post. But thanks!

They also provided John Paul Jones with the Bonhomme Richard, in which he made such magnificent history. But that was a dubious favor lol--the ship was not in such great shape and one of the only few bigger cannon on her blew up immediately, doing a lot of damage and causing many casualties. The Serapis was a much more powerful ship, and anyone else but Jones probably wouldn't even have fought her--much less had the will to win the fight.
Another historical fact which is blithely ignored in most schools is that the Russians took on a much greater proportion of the German army in World War II than the US. Since they were communist apparently that looks bad, I don't know--plus maybe excessive nationalist pride going on there. Though we did supply the Russians with the majority of their trucks, so they could build thousands of tanks and overwhelm the Germans at their own game of mechanized warfare. Not to mention we gave them untold thousands of aircraft, boots, rations, raw materials for war production, etc. The Germans didn't really think much of the US soldiers (other than the Airborne), though they did respect Patton, and the amazing resources the US Army had, like many, many thousands more tanks, artillery, shells to fire, etc.

They also don't like to talk about the fact that our allies the Russians had actually been allied with Hitler (until he stabbed them in the back), and invaded Poland from the other side.

What?! Those Cheese Eatin' Surrender Monkeys! ;)

Melonie
09-21-2013, 11:31 PM
trying to circle back on topic re 'lies' being taught in school ...

The most important victory in WW2 for the USA didn't happen at the Normandy beaches or at the Ardennes forest. In fact it didn't occur on the battlefield at all. The most important US victory took place at a resort in Bretton Woods, New Hampshire. However, outside of a handful of private schools, little if anything is taught about the HUGE significance of the Bretton Woods 'system' being established ... some aspects of which are still working to America's benefit to this day !

eagle2
09-22-2013, 12:00 AM
The Bretton Woods 'system' would not have been very significant if the Allies didn't win World War II.