View Full Version : Now and then
oldster
02-08-2014, 03:41 PM
While the recession is certainly big, also:
circa 1998 high speed internet[and access to all the good porn] was not as high as now
I suspect while alcohol sales are stable, I would bet that pure bar sales are down, IOW Applebees has killed Ed's Bar
'Gilded Age' issues: you need a middle class to remain profitable, I see girls here talking about 1000 CR, while that is great for them, from a business perspective that is a very limited market.
Of the 4 clubs north of Boston I have visited in the last year, not one of them had more people in them than a bar without naked women would have. It aint the girl's fault. A new generation of management is needed. literally the same people have owned some of these places for 40 years, and they have not learned any new tricks
yoda57us
02-08-2014, 04:03 PM
Of the 4 clubs north of Boston I have visited in the last year, not one of them had more people in them than a bar without naked women would have. It aint the girl's fault. A new generation of management is needed. literally the same people have owned some of these places for 40 years, and they have not learned any new tricks
lol, actually most of the clubs north of Boston are under relatively new ownership (withing the last five to ten years) but I still agree with you, not much has changed since I started visiting them back in the early 80's.
FWIW, I think that this is most often the case just about everywhere. Outside of the national chains most folks that own strip clubs view them as bars that sell booze and feature naked women as the entertainment. Back in the 70's and 80's it was common to find some of these places featuring comedians, bands, dance parties and male reviews on a regular basis. It wasn't all T&A all the time. There really are very few "Aha" moments in strip club management. Things move along and change occurs slowly. In the case of strip clubs change is usually a shift in the power struggle between management and talent. The last real sea change in the industry was the gradual shift from dancers being paid a meager wage and keeping all of their tips to dancers paying the club a shift fee and being required pay or tip other service employees as part of that employee's wage. Granted that was a pretty big change but it was gradual and coincided with the overwhelming shift in dancer income from stage tips to private dances. Once the private dance was ensconced as the primary source of dancer income the issue of contact came to the forefront. Once contact-any amount of contact- became more and more common in the private dance arena the value of a good stage show began a very rapid decline.
rickdugan
02-08-2014, 04:09 PM
KW, I was just getting ready to post something very similar to what yoda just posted, so in the interest of not being repetitive I'm just going to say please see above.
In the one-off example that you're using, the new management took an under-utilized club and targeted what was, in that area, an under-served demographic. Good for them. They saw an opportunity and they took it. But that is a very unique type of club serving a targeted demographic. Try dropping that club in Charleston, SC, for example, or many of the numerous other areas where clubs exist and it would not work. You also have no idea whether that club would have done even better if the economy was better - I'm guessing yes, but we have no year over year comparison to draw upon.
knightwish
02-09-2014, 05:40 AM
I certainly wouldn't debate whatever changes you have seen in your regular clubs KW but you are trying to espouse some sort of national trend here and I just don't see it.
In the one-off example that you're using, the new management took an under-utilized club and targeted what was, in that area, an under-served demographic. Good for them.
Well remember the first example was Las Vegas which has always had strong stage shows. Philadelphia is I think you both would agree a well served strip club market. An example of a city that has too many clubs. Success there does mean something. And let me just add since we are talking a black clientele, Philadelphia has a boatload of semi-underground strip clubs with sky high milage also serving the african American market so there are more clubs than TUSCL lists. The fact that Onyx is far and away the most successful black club and the real differentiating feature is the dancing / gymnastics. I think is at least a good anecdote, but you are both right to object it might just be an anecdote.
Dallas, Charlotte. Onyx originated in Dallas. Dallas is of course a tough town to do well in and the Dallas club earned enough to spread to more cities. I've never been to a strip club in Charlotte but reading the reviews of Onyx their patrons are warning each other about when during the weekends the line to get in can get excessive, so on that piece of evidence alone I'm gonna assume that one is doing well.
Houston is an interesting case for Onyx where the the club was incredibly successful '04-7 and then business kept dropping off driving down dancer quality driving down business.... it failed. Here the body type issues seemed to play a role. Watching a girl go from standing to jumping into a handstand to pushing off the floor with their hands to the pole they've never seen. But since the women have asses (i.e. they aren't your typical gymnastics body type) the degree of musculature the women have to have to be strong enough to do those moves seems to be a turn off to the locals so Onyx seems to have only been semi-succesful in that environment. It also faced really strong opposition from the local mayor starting in '07. If we look at '04-'07 I'd say this is another piece of proof of success, if we look at '07-'13 I'd say we are looking at a gradual fail. I'd love to hear more from locals about how much these two factors mattered from afar it is hard to get a good read on which was more important.
In terms of spreading to white people let me point out: Vivid cabaret in NYC (http://www.vividcabaretny.com) as an example. This club opened last month and is being managed by the Onyx and Rick's people while cross promoting with Vivid video. Vivid is a huge club at 61 West 37th Street. Ricks is a large club at 50 West 33rd so as the crow flies they are less than a 1/2 mile from each other. The management of Ricks is seeing the need. Vivid isn't a black club but rather is going for a mixed appeal. But it has the Onyx like emphasis on dancing / gymnastic with a 25' foot stripper pole, poles located all throughout the club, a huge emphasis on stage tipping, going for a nightclub atmosphere, aiming at both men and women as customers.... It is too soon to tell if this club will work out, but that fact it opened in midtown Manhattan says something. I've heard complaints (including on here) that the club is great for customers and dancers except it is too crowded and that's annoying.
There are chains other than Onyx and independent clubs. Let's pick the absolute extreme. King of Diamonds is the #1 strip club in Miami right now. Miami and the surrounding area is something like 40 clubs and quite good ones at that so getting the #1 slot is saying something. I've never been there (again I'm not in the target market) but a club that has 3 separate VIP areas with 41 VIP rooms (and sometimes a wait to get one), 12 skyboxes, car detailing, celebrity performers (and tons and tons of celebrity guests)... In terms of dancing, if you read the comments from strippers at this point serious pole skills are mandatory to get hired at KoD. At the same time while this is the #1 club, reviews seem to uniformally indicate that LDs often suck at KoD. Many of the dancers like making their money selling expensive bottles in champagne rooms and skyboxes, and also of course make money getting the hundreds to thousands in dollar tips the club is famous for from their wild stage shows. The dancers often don't want to rub against the cock of some man they don't know for $25. So the dancers mostly don't try to sell LDs and sort of begrudgingly give them if the customer approaches them. The club keeps shrinking the LD area and evidently making the couches less comfortable to discourage long stretches of multiple LDs. I have no idea what people do in VIPs for multi-hour stretches with prudish dancers but there is no denying this club sells tons of VIPS. I think we can all agree based on the photo of what a good night looks like this club ain't failing:36356
I can keep giving more examples from more cities but this post is getting long. We all agree that dancers going from employees selling door and drinks to contractors selling LDs and VIPs was a huge shift. I think the Onyx type clubs managed to figure out a way to get the best of both systems. But getting back to the point about dancing I think the obvious success of these dancing heavy clubs are demonstrating a truly underserved market for good stage shows. The men (and apparently straight women) do care, that dancing does matter in building up the door. I think this is evidence that white clubs in letting the stage get boring helped to drive down club attendance and thus total spend considerably.
Just for clarity: I think many of the white club owners are doing themselves a disservice in creating an incentive structure for women to spend their time on stage selling LDs rather than selling the club. That doesn't mean I don't understand that's the current incentive structure in these clubs.
oldster
02-09-2014, 06:44 AM
lol, actually most of the clubs north of Boston are under relatively new ownership (withing the last five to ten years)
But there is really no new blood. We shall see with the latest 'sale' although that club is apparently still 'managed' by the previous owner.
They do seem to be people that were not involved in the business before, so that could be good or bad.
It would just seem like they make so little effort to get people in the door.
yoda57us
02-09-2014, 09:08 AM
And let me just add since we are talking a black clientele, Philadelphia has a boatload of semi-underground strip clubs with sky high milage also serving the african American market so there are more clubs than TUSCL lists. The fact that Onyx is far and away the most successful black club and the real differentiating feature is the dancing / gymnastics. I think is at least a good anecdote, but you are both right to object it might just be an anecdote.
Well, actually, YOU are talking about black clubs. I'm not. While I'm not going to allow this thread to become overly racially motivated I think you are, once again, drastically over-reaching by assuming that what may work in a specific urban setting (a far as putting asses in seats at least) will work everywhere else. I would also add that the photograph you posted may show a very crowded club but there is no way to determine how many of those guys are actually spending money on the girls. There are several clubs I visit regularly that are packed on Friday and Saturday nights but the customers are not spending money beyond the cover charge and drinks. The dancers in these clubs that have been around for a while will tell you that a high body count may increase your odds of selling more dances but it does not guarantee it. All it does is put more money in ownership's pockets. Nothing wrong with that of course but, since we are on a dancer support site, I like to bring that perspective to the forefront.
It still comes around to the same issue for me. When guys who like strippers have money to spend they will spend it.
audrey_k
02-09-2014, 09:11 AM
^YEP! What he said...
rickdugan
02-09-2014, 01:46 PM
KW, first, how does any of this support your original argument that strip club patronage is down because of a loss of support of the arts? Putting aside all of the other points that utterly debunk that theory anyway, I've been in more than a few urban hip hop clubs and what those girls are doing most definitely isn't going to be found in most dance studios.
Second, using your example to measure "then vs. now" would only make sense if you took an existing urban hip hop club and measured its patronage during the good times vs. today. Rick's Cabaret, the public company that owns Onyx clubs that you like so much, took a beating when the economy tanked (in terms of revenues and share price), so I'm guessing that the Onyx clubs were not immune to the impact of a bad economy.
Third, what yoda said. The overwhelming majority of strip clubs in the U.S. are NOT urban hip hop clubs and there is a very good reason for that, which is that their local pools of prospective patrons would not support it. The owners of Onyx saw an opportunity in a particular market and took it, which is the only lesson to be learned from your story.
Maybe you really have visited 170 clubs, but did you do so when they were open? ;) I don't mean to be snarky here, but I'm really sensing a disconnect between your theories and how most clubs fill rosters and attract patrons. I'm not claiming to be any irrefutable expert on the matter, but I do visit a lot of clubs and your posts have really had me scratching my head. Maybe we just visit different clubs...:shrug:
yoda57us
02-09-2014, 02:04 PM
K
Maybe you really have visited 170 clubs, but did you do so when they were open? ;) I don't mean to be snarky here, but I'm really sensing a disconnect between your theories and how most clubs fill rosters and attract patrons. I'm not claiming to be any irrefutable expert on the matter, but I do visit a lot of clubs and your posts have really had me scratching my head. Maybe we just visit different clubs...:shrug:
You're hitting the nail squarely on the head here rick. All we are getting here from KW are theories. The reality is there is very little hard financial information available to strip club patrons about how much revenue a club actually generates. What we do know as guys who have actually been inside clubs and talked to dancers is that dancers hear the word "no" a lot more than they hear the word "yes" in an average night. I know I keep,harping on what the girls make vs. what the club makes but this thread was started by a guy asking dancers what effect the shrinking customer base has had on their business.
knightwish
02-10-2014, 06:32 AM
KW, first, how does any of this support your original argument that strip club patronage is down because of a loss of support of the arts?
The counter point being made was that men don't care about dancing and that a club that emphasized the stage could not be successful. Reread the first page or two of this thread. So I gave the example of Las Vegas, where a strong dancing economy leads to much stronger stage performances and strong strip club attendance. Well then that there was something unique to Las Vegas and wouldn't be replica table in other areas if they had strong dancing. So then I gave the example of Onyx Philadelphia where a unsuccessful club through two ownership was made successful by moving from an emphasis on LDs to an emphasis on stage. Then that was argued that was only local and didn't show a national trend. So then I starting giving examples of the fact that this very phenomena is visible in cities all over the United States. If something happens again and again and again that's not a one off that's experimental evidence.
Putting aside all of the other points that utterly debunk that theory anyway, I've been in more than a few urban hip hop clubs and what those girls are doing most definitely isn't going to be found in most dance studios.
They are talented gymnasts. That's what I've said about them. They prove that large numbers of men will go to a club to see good dancing, or naked gymnastics if you prefer.
Second, using your example to measure "then vs. now" would only make sense if you took an existing urban hip hop club and measured its patronage during the good times vs. today. Rick's Cabaret, the public company that owns Onyx clubs that you like so much, took a beating when the economy tanked (in terms of revenues and share price), so I'm guessing that the Onyx clubs were not immune to the impact of a bad economy.
The hip hop clubs expanded during the last 5 years while we both agree that the LD heavy clubs were closing. Those clubs are crowded now. The club I was at last night was pretty dead about 1.2 patrons per girl. Whatever economic effects are happening are happening to both. I'm sure the hip hop clubs were hurt by the economy, but I don't think the economy is what is devastating white strip clubs.
Third, what yoda said. The overwhelming majority of strip clubs in the U.S. are NOT urban hip hop clubs and there is a very good reason for that, which is that their local pools of prospective patrons would not support it. The owners of Onyx saw an opportunity in a particular market and took it, which is the only lesson to be learned from your story.
I agree they wouldn't support it. I admire Onyx, I don't spend there. The club I went to last night has a better than average stage but girls had to do lots of flashing to get LDs because it is an LD club. The two club I went to before that the stage existed solely and openly to sell LDs, the stage was high contact low quality dancing.
Maybe you really have visited 170 clubs, but did you do so when they were open? ;) I don't mean to be snarky here, but I'm really sensing a disconnect between your theories and how most clubs fill rosters and attract patrons. I'm not claiming to be any irrefutable expert on the matter, but I do visit a lot of clubs and your posts have really had me scratching my head. Maybe we just visit different clubs...:shrug:
You do mean to be snarky but that's OK. The clubs I go to are mostly examples in the other direction where boring and tedious drives down attendance. From my perspective that's useful: if the club is dead I have more fun for less money. I don't like crowded clubs. The club I was at last night is packed on weekends and dead during the week. Yesterday was a Sunday night with snow. 1.2 patrons per girl and I had constant attention at a low hourly burn. And I wasn't trying to save. The situation with clubs being underutilized is a net positive for me, I benefit.
What I see in the clubs I frequent when it comes to getting people in the door, the ownership frequently lacks creativity. They let their clubs become stagnant. They are quite often terrible business people. They don't focus on building their brand. The club I was at last night has decent support from the swinger population during weeknights. Why aren't they holding regular swing events and starting to reorganize the club to encourage this. Why don't the girls have a good idea what the policy are regarding patrons having sex with each other in the club? Why not take advantage of that in a crowded market like Philadelphia? Or alternative, the girl/girl shows are incredibly popular. Why the heck aren't they doing one of those every 2 hours rather than once a week?
What the clubs I go try is a little advertising and promotional work. Advertising is expensive and controversial so there is less of it now than there was. Promotional work requires focus and quality management and the clubs I go to mainly skimp on manager quality. They lack the focus. The black clubs are far better managed than the average white club. That's why the two strip club reality shows I know of focused on a Vegas club and a black club, because there the management is awake.
rickdugan
02-10-2014, 08:33 AM
OK KW, precisely which clubs in Vegas are putting on especially elaborate stage shows? And which hip hop clubs did you visit that you saw actual gymnastics performed? Be specific now, because I have clubbed in Vegas and in urban hip hop clubs in a few different cities and I don't remember seeing those things, truth be told.
And to repeat, as mentioned previously, you are talking about different options available to large urban clubs. The vast majority of the clubs in the U.S. are neither large nor urban, so broad sweeping statements about what will work in all areas don't really hold. In most places, the customer base that supports clubs and dancers has an average age well north of 30, and that is not because the club owners are stupid, but rather because those are the people in those areas who have the discretionary income to burn.
Btw, some of the most elaborate pole performances I have seen in recent years were not in large urban clubs, but rather were in mid-sized clubs in places like Topeka, KS; Fort Worth, TX; and even Little Rock, AK. Indeed, I saw stuff in these places that I haven't seen in a decade in my normal haunts and they even host some fairly serious pole competitions, but they were still pretty dead during the weekdays that I visited and most of the guys in them were over 30.
IMO the reason that urban hip hop clubs get busy is that they: (1) are large enough to accommodate big crowds; (2) have large population bases to draw upon; and (3) have successfully branded themselves as party spots, NOT because they have elaborate stage performances per se. Sin City in the Bronx and Perfection in Queens both come to mind, but those girls are sure as fuck not performing gymnastics on the stage, lol.
And this phenomenon is not limited to so-called black clubs. Another example of a club that has really pulled this off well is Sam's Hofbrau in Los Angeles. By all reports, the place is often packed. When I was leaving during a recent visit, there was even a line of young people waiting outside behind a velvet rope - on a Sunday night - and cars lined up for valet parking. But those girls are also not doing handstands on stage. Indeed, a few of the girls were brand new and could barely dance at all.
This is the last response I am making to "throw enough shit against the wall and maybe something will stick" theories about how clubs operate and what would work in them.
whirlerz
02-10-2014, 09:33 AM
*observes RD & Yoda have everything locked down, so not much gets past 'em :)
knightwish
02-14-2014, 06:05 AM
OK KW, precisely which clubs in Vegas are putting on especially elaborate stage shows?
First off you can see the difference between the dancing experiencing in Vegas most dancers in most clubs. Well over 1/2 the girls do more elaborate work that wouldn't be possible for a dancer without dance experience. All of them I've ever been to are somewhat more elaborate. Little Darlings a decade ago would be the ultimate, costumes and real routines. 3/4s of the time I go there when I'm in Vegas I'm doing that one because it is such a treat. They still have those kinds of routines on Fridays. I'd like to catch the Saturday wet show which while dancing oriented is at least something different than the tedious bad dancing aimed at selling LDs.
And which hip hop clubs did you visit that you saw actual gymnastics performed?
Onyx. But I don't go to hip hop clubs except as a "I wonder what this club does that's so special" for an hour. Frequently at clubs I do regularly frequent I see African American dancers do moves that require gymnastics. So Sunday I saw leverage off the pole into handstand (against the pole) with a split. Not great gymnastics but definitely required strength. And that's a change in the last decade in black dancing culture.
And to repeat, as mentioned previously, you are talking about different options available to large urban clubs. The vast majority of the clubs in the U.S. are neither large nor urban, so broad sweeping statements about what will work in all areas don't really hold. In most places, the customer base that supports clubs and dancers has an average age well north of 30, and that is not because the club owners are stupid, but rather because those are the people in those areas who have the discretionary income to burn.
The vast majority of clubs are urban. Look at most states on TUSCL urban and suburban areas are a huge percentage.
Btw, some of the most elaborate pole performances I have seen in recent years were not in large urban clubs, but rather were in mid-sized clubs in places like Topeka, KS; Fort Worth, TX; and even Little Rock, AK.
Those are all cities. By "urban" do you mean black clubs?
IMO the reason that urban hip hop clubs get busy is that they: (1) are large enough to accommodate big crowds; (2) have large population bases to draw upon; and (3) have successfully branded themselves as party spots,
I agree, especially #3. They have created the party fun atmosphere for a strip club. That's something to be emulated. And I think the fun stage shows are absolutely part of how they create that. Even non-strip dance clubs frequently have sexy and exciting dance clubs not dancers selling LDs.
And this phenomenon is not limited to so-called black clubs. Another example of a club that has really pulled this off well is Sam's Hofbrau in Los Angeles. By all reports, the place is often packed. When I was leaving during a recent visit, there was even a line of young people waiting outside behind a velvet rope - on a Sunday night - and cars lined up for valet parking.
Haven't been there but I'm glad to hear it. And I didn't say the only way to create a fun atmosphere is having quality dancing skills.
rickdugan
02-15-2014, 10:04 AM
KW, you are all over the place now. I'm not going to sit here and parse through the definition or urban with you and I am certainly not talking about black clubs per se. The point is that most clubs are not located in the super high density population centers. Further, most of the ones that are located in those areas are too small to accommodate very large crowds.
Also, you have yet to say anything which supports your theory that the loss of government funding of the arts is impacting strip club experiences. Yes there are plenty of clubs out there that still have a range of pole tricks and other maneuvers - nobody is claiming otherwise. But they have nothing to do with training in the classic arts, in most cases, and the benefits of doing these types of tricks are not the same for all girls in all types of clubs in all locations. You are taking your personal preferences, from specific types of clubs located in high density population centers, and trying to sell them as the ideal model for all clubs. Maybe there is more room for these types of clubs in some areas, but a lot of conditions have to be right in order for a club like this to fly (population base, income demographics, manageable cost of real estate, zoning, etc., etc). What might work for a few clubs in Vegas, L.A. or the boroughs of NYC is not necessarily a model that translates to the almost 3,000 other clubs nationwide, for all of the reasons that we have discussed ad nauseum now.
If you disagree, feel free to say so, but please do so with specificity. For example, if you believe that the girls who work in the clubs in Vegas have had classic arts training, a response relating to which clubs you are talking about and precisely what you are seeing might go a bit further in supporting your statements. We have a lot of girls on here who have worked in Vegas at one point or another, so they might also be able to chime in. And even were this the case, if you believe that this would translate to a small Southern city, or in one of the other smaller cities that you are obviously classifying as urban, or the myriad of suburban and rural clubs nationwide, please share why you think so. I'm not trying to be snarky now, but I feel like I'm trying to pin jelly to the wall in having a focused back and forth discussion about these concepts with you.
knightwish
02-15-2014, 11:45 AM
@Rick
The construction is pretty clear cut.
Men like good quality stage shows
They like good quality stage shows that clubs with good shows will boost their attendance
Boosting attendance boosts the total spend for strip club economy. This economy could potentially be much larger.
However... individually dancers frequently don't benefit in the short term from good quality shows and as a result the quality of dancing has declined.
To put on a good show a women needs actual skills and these are not rapidly acquired.
Institutional support for women achieving these skills had declined in the last generation. There are a variety of reasons for this but one big one has been government cuts in support for artistic performances. That's led to a drop off in the population size of both the professional and amateur dancers.
That's pretty much the entire case. The evidence has been pointing to good quality experiments that have been conducted all over the country where clubs have brought up the quality of their dancing and had a rather profound effect on attendance and spend in environments where clubs that retained mediocre dancing saw a falloff in attendance and spend. Vegas is a secondary experimental data point because it acts as a broad what-if regarding what the country's strip clubs economy would look like if lots of women had skills. The large number of Vegas shows creates an environment where large numbers of dancers are available. If you can't see the difference between how women dance in Vegas, in virtually all the clubs and what you see in most other cities I'm not sure what to say. The women in Vegas are on average spectacular on the pole. They quite often treat their time on stage as a time to entertain. The clubs maintain higher standards and Vegas clubs, and dancers make good money.
Maybe there is more room for these types of clubs in some areas, but a lot of conditions have to be right in order for a club like this to fly (population base, income demographics, manageable cost of real estate, zoning, etc., etc). What might work for a few clubs in Vegas, L.A. or the boroughs of NYC is not necessarily a model that translates to the almost 3,000 other clubs nationwide, for all of the reasons that we have discussed ad nauseum now.
I don't buy that. I don't think there is any reason that a small rural club that brought up the quality of their stage routines wouldn't see over say a period of a year or two a substantial increase in total spend. They obviously have to build around their own community's demographics but appreciation for dance and beauty have been part of human culture for thousands of years. Now... the problem for settling this argument simply is that there are very few clubs in more rural areas that have tried good quality stage shows. But at least originally in this thread the counter argument was raised that better dancing wouldn't work anywhere under any circumstances at all. Those counter examples disprove that. Moreover, there are over 111 population centers in the United States with over 200k people in them. And of course a lot of them are next to other population centers like NJ, Philadelphia, NY. There are also much smaller cities that have a very active strip club population like Niagra Falls NY.
I don't see any reason to assume this only applied to urban population centers and better dancing would have no impact on the more rural ones. You are just asserting that. To prove it you would need to show some southern clubs that did focus on dancing and it had no effect on attendance. But even if it were true, I'm not sure how this disproves the change in dancing skills having damaged the strip club economy. The issue is not the number of clubs but total spend. And I'm rather sure that the clubs in areas with 200k+ people and the nearby areas represent an overwhelming majority of the total spend like they do for the total spend on most other activities.
If you disagree, feel free to say so, but please do so with specificity. For example, if you believe that the girls who work in the clubs in Vegas have had classic arts training, a response relating to which clubs you are talking about and precisely what you are seeing might go a bit further in supporting your statements.
Stuff on the pole or stage that requires well above average (even for a stripper) strength, balance, timing and grace. Doing an entire routine that works well together shows some level of skill at choreography. Those skills didn't fall off the dancing tree, those were hard acquired skills. I'll stick with Little Darlings as an example club. Watch any 3 dancers in a row, at any time and you are essentially guaranteed to see one of them doing something that demonstrates their training. We'd have to be at a club to point this out... but if a dancer holds the pole arms outstretched and goes into a air split she has balance and strength. She didn't get that magically one day it came with hard work. Dancers at Little Darlings (especially a decade ago) go well beyond a few simple pole tricks. Those costumes and routines didn't appear magically they planned them. Which means they don't walk on stage trying to do as little as humanly possible while working the crowd to sell LDs.
They aren't women who dislike dancing. They are women who love dancing and would quite often rather be fully supporting themselves doing Vegas shows. And that's reflected in the quality of their stage routines. Las Vegas has a huge successful strip club culture. Certainly other things play a part in building that culture, it is party town. But I don't think it is unreasonable to assert that quality stage shows play a big part.
yoda57us
02-15-2014, 12:33 PM
KW, as soon as ONE dancer posts here that she has worked in one of these "urban" super clubs of which you speak, done ballet moves on stage and banked that night without still having to sell a ton of private dances I will begin to consider that your thought process mite have some merit.
I don't see much chance of that since this thread probably drove them all from Customer Convo days ago...
You are, as rick has pointed out extremely well, just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping that something sticks. You may like elaborate stage shows but I've been around long enough to have watched the deconstruction of the stage show first hand. Men stopped tipping and caring about them as soon as there was an available option that would put them in a private room one-on-one with a dancer. Guys sit at the stage in most of the clubs I go to and tip simply to get a dancer's attention and get her over to his table after her stage show. There is a lot of room for chicken vs. egg debate when it comes to contact, extras, sex in the CR or many other SC topics but the bottom line is that when a guy has a lot of money to spend in a strip club he will spend it like it's going out of style. When he only has few bucks he will pay a cover, nurse a drink for hours and stare at naked women all night without tipping or buying dances. That looks to me to be exactly what is going on in the picture you posted a while back. As long as you have women circulating the club wearing nothing but high heels and a smile you don't need ballet or acrobatics on stage. You could put Henny Youngman on stage and the club would still be packed with guys who have no intention of spending any money on the girls all night. They are just soaking in the free T&A. Regardless of what is going on on the stage or on the floor the dancers are only making money from the guys who actually buy private dances. The circus atmosphere does not help dancers make bank.
Your Walter Mitty complex is getting a bit tiresome at this point. You say yourself that you prefer slow clubs on slow nights for your own entertainment yet you have burned three or four pages of cyber note pad paper arguing in favor of a type of club that you have no real experience in.
FasaCorp
02-15-2014, 04:17 PM
[LIST=1]
Men like good quality stage shows
The first bullet point you make is mostly false. YOU may like "good quality stage shows", but you cannot speak for all men. Which renders the rest of the points false as well, and highly suspect at best. When I go into a strip club (and I mean EVERY time I go), I never hear a customer say how great the stage dance was. What I DO see, however, are very few customers walking up to the stage to tip. As for myself, the only reason I walk up to a dancer on stage to tip them is when I have assessed how they interact with customers, not by the "quality of the stage show". This is the kind of tip that entices them to come see me at my booth/table when they are done with those annoying "stage shows".
safado
02-15-2014, 06:23 PM
I just want to set the record straight, I do not go to the strip club for the stage shows, and I do not read Playboy for the articles.
Vyanka
02-15-2014, 08:35 PM
Yes. The economy is shitty...waddaya gonna do? Just don't be that fkn customer coming inside the club asking for shit. I will remind this type of guy that he isn't at the bunny ranch and tell him to gtfo of my face.
Considering how shit the economy is and working like a real stripper, I can't complain.
knightwish
02-16-2014, 08:19 AM
KW, as soon as ONE dancer posts here that she has worked in one of these "urban" super clubs of which you speak, done ballet moves on stage and banked that night without still having to sell a ton of private dances I will begin to consider that your thought process mite have some merit.
Yoda in this thread I have at length and multiple times indicated that I'm not predicting any such thing. I've been unequivocal that good dancing on stage won't help a dancer's earning much and might likely hurt them. The interests of the dancers, interests of the club and the interests of customers aren't in harmony on this, the same way they aren't in harmony on many other issues. The question in this thread is why aren't clubs crowded not what is the best strategy for dancers to maximize their individual earnings. Those are two entirely different, somewhat unrelated and often quite contradictory questions.
yoda57us
02-16-2014, 08:50 AM
Just to refresh you memory KW, this was the original post...
I have been going to strip clubs for a while now (about 20 years). It seems like there are now fewer men visiting the clubs than there used to be. I was wondering if any long time dancers have noticed that their incomes are down from what they used to be, or if it is just my area or my imagination. And is having fewer guys in the club related to the higher occurrence in my area of girls offering so-called extras. I have heard more tales of friends who were offered/received extras and I have been offered them more lately myself. Is this tied to their being fewer guys or is this merely a club culture change from the 90s and early 2000s?
The actual question is quite a bit different, and totally unrelated, to what you have been going on about. Furthermore, if you read the responses here from the ladies, you know, the people that this site exists for and the people to whom the original question was addressed, they revolve around income, not body counts. Now, to be fair, this thread veering of course was a group effort but, if I'm going to leave this thread open, we need to move away from this particular circular argument and forge ahead...
arielbriel
02-17-2014, 03:27 AM
This ^. I also want to add that Vivid Cabaret is nowhere near a "super club". It's actually quite small and cozy. KW, have you ever even been to it ??
knightwish
02-17-2014, 08:20 AM
This ^. I also want to add that Vivid Cabaret is nowhere near a "super club". It's actually quite small and cozy. KW, have you ever even been to it ??
I agree, its a good example of the concept of the hip-hop club moving towards a white crowd. I've heard it is small but after all it is NYC so the lease might be more than a huge club would cost in most other places. Anyway, if I don't end up with a client dinner, I'm going to try and hit it on the 27th to take a look for myself.
rickdugan
02-17-2014, 08:35 PM
KW, I wish I had been able to respond to your latest thoughts sooner, but what yoda said is right on the money. We keep going in circles with these various theories of yours, but at the end of the day there is a reason why clubs are the way that they are now and it is not because the dancers and club owners are all dumber than you are. Guys simply don't spend the type of money that they used to on stage performances anymore. Like yoda, I too saw the tail end of the stage performance era, when LDs were new and still kinda' lame and most of the dancers were accustomed to using costumes. poll tricks and other gimmicks to loosen up wallets. As LDs became more mainstream and contact starting increasing, however, the pole tricks became less and less important to customers. The calculus behind it is simple: Every 20 dollar bill broken for tips is one less lapdance that the guy can purchase.
You can theorize all you want, and your personal preferences can be what they are, but none of that is going to change this reality. So for these reasons, many dancers have never felt the need to learn and execute the types of daredevil tricks that used to be so common back then, nevermind invest in elaborate and expensive stage costumes. It is about ROI dude.
With that I am done with this discussion as I feel like I'm getting bogged down in quicksand.
arielbriel
02-18-2014, 04:54 AM
I should be there the 27th. Have fun!
knightwish
02-24-2014, 05:00 AM
I'm going to cross link this. This discussion ended up getting pulled into Superclubs vs traditional stripclubs (https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?190878-Superclubs-vs-traditional-stripclubs)