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knightwish
02-19-2014, 12:23 PM
Most strippers do not condone couples to fuck in vip and they absolutely CANNOT be left alone to fuck in vip either. It's not a hotel room. Go back home a fuck each other there.

No way for me to know their real thoughts if they weren't being honest, about their opinion. FWIW I don't swing in the vanilla sense so they had no reason for them to lie to me, but YMMV. My impression from what the dancers say to me is for most of the dancers they were embarrassed (which I found surprising) but given the other options of what's expected in VIP are mostly fine with it if they had a handle on what was allowed or not allowed by the club. I know that if I owned that club I would probably be cultivating a weekday customer that differentiates the club and is willing to spend and ride that baby wherever it went.

For me public play is a huge turn on so if I were a dancer I suspect I'd be totally into it. But its harder for me to put myself in their shoes since I haven't had that sort of experience. Tempest puts it so snappily, "civilian vagina upsets the delicate strip club ecosystem" and certainly having people having full on sex in the club might do that.


You can't compare strip clubs with fetish parties. Two totally different things.

True there are big differences. But you gotta compare stripclubs to something if you are going to draw analogies. I compared SCs to telco construction above so at the very least I obvious like analogies. :)

charlotte.
02-19-2014, 01:25 PM
if you are a customer we will lie about everything even if there is no specific motivation, especially if it involves the club. nobody likes a negative person so we will put on a happy face and lie about everything.

"I love watching ppl fuck in vip!"
"all of the girls here are so great!"
"the management here is the best ever, they really take care of us here!"
"I love meeting new interesting guys like you everyday here!"
"the bouncers here are really chill and wont bother us in vip!"

all lies, all excitement faked. nobody wants to hear a stripper complain about gross customers or a toxic work environment and we know it so we lie to keep the mood positive and you happy.

Gia2608
02-19-2014, 01:46 PM
This started as a good thread.... The superclub thing is apparently very popular here in Miami. I would imagine in NYC and other large cities but I haven't been to a SC in NYC in a decade. I think the fact that it is happening in Miami which is a world class nightclub mecca, means it will likely spread to other areas as well. We will all have to learn (management, owners and dancers alike) to capitalize on this trend, as the entire point of opening these behemoths is to make more money than either a stripclub or a nightclub respectfully would make. I would say that the biggest piece of the puzzle in ensuring customers understand the concept. I am basing this opinion on the fact I have read the reviews of E11ven and also a guy friend of mine (who has NO idea I used to dance) went to Scarletts the night Ellven opened and proceeded to tell me how busy it was as they were giving away liquor. I said "Geez, the dancers must not have made any money" he replied "they had to- there was thousands of people there"... I get the impression they did not . People go to certain clubs expecting to drop a lot of money (here in MIA) Liv, and Nikki Beach would be good examples. Translating that to money spent on the dancers and not just overpriced bottles and VIP access is the key.

yoda57us
02-19-2014, 02:16 PM
True there are big differences. But you gotta compare stripclubs to something if you are going to draw analogies. I compared SCs to telco construction above so at the very least I obvious like analogies. :)

You may like them but they simply don't hold up. Dancers make their living by selling a luxury item-a non-essential. In other parts of the sex business the customer has already made up his mind to buy in most cases. Escorts, BDSM, Fetish-you have to book an appointment to even see these women. The sale is already made. Guys can walk into a strip club, buy drinks and spend all night staring at the T&A without ever spending a dime on the ladies. Indeed, we have several new arrivals here with blue ribbons who appear to be bragging about it! Now we have clubs that encourage it! Call me skeptical but non SC types will never be "trained" to act like regular strip club customers. I go to a strip club-alone-to look for my favs and spend money on them. That's the MO of a good customer. It's painfully well known among dancers that bachelor parties are cheap and Feature dancer crowds are cheap. How can anyone realistically expect any group of men or men and women to actually spend significantly on dancers when you are bringing them into a club that is based on being a celebrity hang out. People are going to see and be seen, not to by LD's...

As far as any other analogies go it doesn't matter how you slice it. Dancing is a unique occupation and strip clubs are a unique industry. You can keep trying to reinvent the wheel if you like but it will always come down to the same bottom line for dancers: Money talks and BS walks.

Vyanka
02-19-2014, 04:23 PM
Call me skeptical but non SC types will never be "trained" to act like regular strip club customers

That's a fact

michele11
02-19-2014, 04:55 PM
Well they are spreading all over the country rather quickly. There are over 100 cities in the United States with populations higher than 200k.



It wasn't a particularly low end club it was one of the well known Bourbon street clubs. Where I saw plenty of the young drunks and all the stripclub with door people outside hawking their clubs to passerbys. With the possible exception of Penthouse none of the clubs in NOLA are classy. It is comments like that regarding a meager earner that make me have some trouble with your version of events. The woman I was with was probably an above average earner. I talked to her partner who did 3 VIPs that night which was a good night for her to pull down about $1500/day and she was unquestionably in the clubs 15% top earners. The cocktail waitress made comments fully consistent with the idea that extended VIP didn't exist for their club. Since CFS was more or less expected in VIPs, the prices were comparable to Penthouse which to the best of my knowledge has the highest rollers among the bigger clubs.

I don't know how you do $8k in a NOLA VIP under any circumstances. The rates just aren't that high even at the highest end NOLA clubs. But I'll take your word for it. That being said for the overwhelming majority of dancers in NOLA, NOLA is a great example of a successful middle class strip club environment where a large number of clubs congregate yet still are able to maintain reasonable crowds by pulling people in. They dancers sell dances and some VIPS they pull down a good earn but they aren't making $8k / night which would translate into over $1m a year.

So I'm not buying that I should be ashamed for not seeing NOLA as an upperclass strip club environment like say Manhattan where you do hae a substantial number of dancers who can target a small percentage of high spenders. Incidentally that targeting the high end rather than serving the mass population is what you see at a place like KoD. You want to say you make insane money in NOLA fine, I can buy that. You want to say the money in NOLA at the top is anywhere like Manhattan, no darling I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.



If there were experts in your industry how they would be talking: Lap dance sales are up 13.7% YoY in clubs with over 200 average patrons, while stage tipping is depressed 4.1%. This continues a trend for the last 7 years as you can see by this graph... Alcohol sales are up 6.3% with a 8.4% increase in average price per drink and 2.1% decrease in quantity of drinks ordered... The experts in telco finance are not the people who lay cable, nor the people who design phones, nor the people that work in individual stores and sell plans. The people who know the most about the Telco industry's financials are people who are quite often breathtakingly ignorant about the detailed mechanics of what telcos do. Doing the work doesn't give you much insight at all into aggregate data, and aggregate data what industry expertise requires. Your industry doesn't have good quality public aggregate data because everyone is trying to avoid paying taxes so it is a lot harder to come by.

My configured routers or working out where to lay fiber or helping to transfer towers doesn't teach me dick about telco financials. What I know about their financials I've learned from reading Wall Street industry analysts who are in the aggregate data business. Some jerkoff CFO who doesn't know what a router looks like does in fact know more about the industry's finances than some guy whose spent his life at the ground level making communication possible. Please stop the insanity! You are going to tell a entertainer who's worked in almost every top club in the country how it works! Lol. Ok get the facts straight! Penthouse is not the top club in Nola. I'm hired there and don't even bother to ever go....Ricks the vip is1000 an hour and 500 for a half and ....guess what dances are 60. My girlfriend who also posts here that I travel with had a guy come in 2 nights and get 6 hors in vip with her. So she can attest to the super high earnings to be had in Nola. My 8000 vip was at hustler that has a 5900 room. I sold 4 770 an hour rooms with the gentlemen the night before and the night before that he spent 5000 in the club so they let him reserve me for 5 hours for 8000. I didn't get all that lol, it's hustler , deja vu corp but I don't go for mardi gras which brings in cheap idiots. I go for sugar bowl and large conventions. I'm not going to go back and forth with you anymore because you don't know what your talking about. If you think you know more than a woman who's been in the business 17 years and has worked at just about every top club in every city/ state then I can't be bothered...

michele11
02-19-2014, 05:16 PM
Most strippers do not condone couples to fuck in vip and they absolutely CANNOT be left alone to fuck in vip either. It's not a hotel room. Go back home a fuck each other there.

You can't compare strip clubs with fetish parties. Two totally different things.
Please stop the madness! This guy is getting his info from I have no idea were and arguing with girls who actually do this for a living telling use we are wrong. I'm pretty sure his analogy about the pipe layer knowing more than whomever was his way of trying to say he knows more than all of us who are ACTUALY in the business. I can't even read his novel long posts anymore. I'm not getting paid for this bullshit. It's worse than the know it alls in the clubs. I wonder does he spew all this lovely info to girls he meets in the clubs. Lol.

michele11
02-19-2014, 05:26 PM
You may like them but they simply don't hold up. Dancers make their living by selling a luxury item-a non-essential. In other parts of the sex business the customer has already made up his mind to buy in most cases. Escorts, BDSM, Fetish-you have to book an appointment to even see these women. The sale is already made. Guys can walk into a strip club, buy drinks and spend all night staring at the T&A without ever spending a dime on the ladies. Indeed, we have several new arrivals here with blue ribbons who appear to be bragging about it! Now we have clubs that encourage it! Call me skeptical but non SC types will never be "trained" to act like regular strip club customers. I go to a strip club-alone-to look for my favs and spend money on them. That's the MO of a good customer. It's painfully well known among dancers that bachelor parties are cheap and Feature dancer crowds are cheap. How can anyone realistically expect any group of men or men and women to actually spend significantly on dancers when you are bringing them into a club that is based on being a celebrity hang out. People are going to see and be seen, not to by LD's...

As far as any other analogies go it doesn't matter how you slice it. Dancing is a unique occupation and strip clubs are a unique industry. You can keep trying to reinvent the wheel if you like but it will always come down to the same bottom line for dancers: Money talks and BS walks.

You are on of the few customers( I don't wander over here or customer chat much)who seems to have a real understanding and grasp of how these clubs work and how to behave in a club. I always appreciate your input and agree with it.:)

yoda57us
02-19-2014, 07:24 PM
Well they are spreading all over the country rather quickly. There are over 100 cities in the United States with populations higher than 200k.

This is another statement that, by itself means nothing. Spreading rather quickly? How quickly? How many? How many now compared to five years ago? How many different cities have these hybrid super clubs actually opened in? Have any failed?

Also, I know it's fun to post factoids from the internet but just blurting out that there are "over 100 cities in the United States with populations higher than 200k" means nothing. Where are these cities? What is the economic climate in each of these cities? What is the local political climate towards adult entertainment in these large cities?

A few things worth noting...

Manchester-Nashua, N.H. one of your 100 cities has a population of over 400,000 people in the area. Lots of shopping malls, no strip clubs. There is a club within about 30 minutes. There used to be one closer but it closed down after it was bombed. I'm guessing there won't be any super strip clubs opening in this "urban area" in the near future.

Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, Calif. population of about 800,000 in the region. 3 strip clubs, about 30 AMPS. Again, lots of shopping-mostly small strip malls, many with AMPS in them. This is an old Navy town and, clearly, when the fleet is in, they want happy endings. Of the three clubs only the Spearmint Rhino could be considered even remotely upscale and it's TINY.
Good location for a super club? I don't see it but I'm often accused of being skeptical. At least, given all the AMPS, the city fathers seem open to the idea of T&A.

Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, Mass.-N.H. Population just north of 450,000. Boston has two strip clubs and it took the last one that opened (10 years ago) a year to get an entertainment license. While there are a bunch more small clubs in the suburbs the city of Boston itself is very anti adult entertainment since they shut down the old "Combat Zone" back in the mid 90's. I actually think a super club on some level would do OK in Boston. The downtown hotels and convention centers do a very good business almost year round. The city is not however currently granting adult entertainment licenses. Most local guys who want a good SC experience drive to Providence.

Anchorage, Alaska. Population just under 400,000. The entire state of Alaska only seems to have about seven strip clubs. Four of them are in Anchorage. I could be wrong but I don't see Anchorage as an urban party mecca.

That's four out of your 100 + cities with a high population base that probably will not be hosting a super strip club. Now, maybe dozens of other cities will, maybe dozens won't. The point is just posting a stat from a wiki page means nothing when you are trying to support an argument. The data doesn't exist to support your argument. That's the only reality here.

michele11
02-19-2014, 08:38 PM
Nothing exists to support anything he says.

knightwish
02-21-2014, 08:30 AM
if you are a customer we will lie about everything even if there is no specific motivation, especially if it involves the club. nobody likes a negative person so we will put on a happy face and lie about everything.

"I love watching ppl fuck in vip!"
"all of the girls here are so great!"
"the management here is the best ever, they really take care of us here!"
"I love meeting new interesting guys like you everyday here!"
"the bouncers here are really chill and wont bother us in vip!"

all lies, all excitement faked. nobody wants to hear a stripper complain about gross customers or a toxic work environment and we know it so we lie to keep the mood positive and you happy.

Charlotte I get that its all an act... The problem is this version of events doesn't fit. She did the opposite of what you are talking about. If the dancer were to start talking about a couple doing it in VIP with lots of explicit kinkyness and then her joining in. Assuming she could fake this well, I'd get all hot and bothered and want to hear more about it with her rubbing against me in the LD/VIP room. I'll totally pay for Penthouse Forum style dirty talk with grinding. So if they were playing to me, what you describe is what they would have done.

The two dancers being embarrassed didn't come from my head. I was genuinely surprised that women who have a job getting naked in public nightly and working in a place where all their coworkers get naked would be embarrassed from watching a couple have sex. Call me naive or whatever but it never even occurred to me that would have been their reaction. I find watching public sex arousing or tedious, but I'm comfortable with it and they are likely much more experienced than I with the swinger scene. And of course they were complaining about management being inconsistent, which I read as incompetent and not cultivating a business opportunity. Finally in that club the bounders (in this club the manager) aren't chill, will bother us in VIP, I know that and they know I know that.

So, I get the SW "it's all an act" but their version has the ring of truth precisely because it is not what makes the most sense for just ginning up dollars and was out of character.

knightwish
02-21-2014, 08:33 AM
In other parts of the sex business the customer has already made up his mind to buy in most cases. Escorts, BDSM, Fetish-you have to book an appointment to even see these women.

In context the context of your post this made sense and is true. But just for clarity in the above discussion of prodoms / footmodels and fetish parties those are BDSM/Fetish things where there is selling either there or cultivating a relationship for future sales. There is definitely a sales process.

knightwish
02-21-2014, 08:48 AM
Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, Calif. population of about 800,000 in the region. 3 strip clubs, about 30 AMPS. Again, lots of shopping-mostly small strip malls, many with AMPS in them. This is an old Navy town and, clearly, when the fleet is in, they want happy endings. Of the three clubs only the Spearmint Rhino could be considered even remotely upscale and it's TINY.
Good location for a super club? I don't see it but I'm often accused of being skeptical. At least, given all the AMPS, the city fathers seem open to the idea of T&A.

I'm going to pick your second example because I know the scene. Outside of rush hour Oxnard is very near COI, LA, Hollywood, Van Nuys there are a ton of clubs in the area. The Oxnard area has some of the best of these go-go area style clubs. For one thing possibly the best Burlesque culture in the USA. I don't know of any in Oxnard proper but certainly the people in Oxnard have easy access to a ton of clubs that are trying different economic models successfully. DBA comes immediately to mind. I haven't been there for the current incarnation but in previous incarnations: $15 parking, $20 cover, no LDs / VIP, overpriced weak drinks, erotic stage shows involving complex bondage (often suspensions which do require skills to not hurt the dancers) and then erotic posing, glass R rated go-go booths... Oh and on weekends often lines down the block where they reject patrons who aren't cool enough. BTW there is an example where the dancers range from pretty+ to mega hot and make terrible money. Which I assume they are OK with because of the low contact, and enjoyable work conditions. Plus the ability to meet some very wealthy clients for takeout, getting roles and longer term sugarbabe relationships.

yoda57us
02-21-2014, 02:39 PM
In context the context of your post this made sense and is true. But just for clarity in the above discussion of prodoms / footmodels and fetish parties those are BDSM/Fetish things where there is selling either there or cultivating a relationship for future sales. There is definitely a sales process.

You may be right about the parties, I have no experience with that sort of thing but I can see how that would be more like a strip club environment. My reference is to women who advertise their services on line and accept bookings that way. Once you book, unless the customer is a no-show or a thief, the lady knows that she is getting paid and how much.

yoda57us
02-21-2014, 02:47 PM
I'm going to pick your second example because I know the scene. Outside of rush hour Oxnard is very near COI, LA, Hollywood, Van Nuys there are a ton of clubs in the area. The Oxnard area has some of the best of these go-go area style clubs. For one thing possibly the best Burlesque culture in the USA. I don't know of any in Oxnard proper but certainly the people in Oxnard have easy access to a ton of clubs that are trying different economic models successfully. DBA comes immediately to mind. I haven't been there for the current incarnation but in previous incarnations: $15 parking, $20 cover, no LDs / VIP, overpriced weak drinks, erotic stage shows involving complex bondage (often suspensions which do require skills to not hurt the dancers) and then erotic posing, glass R rated go-go booths... Oh and on weekends often lines down the block where they reject patrons who aren't cool enough. BTW there is an example where the dancers range from pretty+ to mega hot and make terrible money. Which I assume they are OK with because of the low contact, and enjoyable work conditions. Plus the ability to meet some very wealthy clients for takeout, getting roles and longer term sugarbabe relationships.

DBA? No idea what you are talking about. Is it a strip club? Also, examples of clubs where dancers make terrible money don't help your cause here. Dancers dance. They go to the club to earn a living. Cultivating takeout is generally an endeavor that leads to prostitution and, while I have no problem at all with that, it's not something that most dancers are interested in doing to earn a living. if they were they wouldn't have to waste time in a club to get business.

knightwish
02-22-2014, 02:12 PM
DBA? No idea what you are talking about. Is it a strip club? Also, examples of clubs where dancers make terrible money don't help your cause here. Dancers dance. They go to the club to earn a living. Cultivating takeout is generally an endeavor that leads to prostitution and, while I have no problem at all with that, it's not something that most dancers are interested in doing to earn a living. if they were they wouldn't have to waste time in a club to get business.

DBA (several years back, haven't been there recently) has/had women mostly naked posing and engaging in erotica stage shows as part of the decor. If you consider the clean dancing oriented clubs with poles in the 1980s to be strip clubs then DBA is one.

As for dancers making bad money not helping my case, how does that not help my case? I've never said much about dancer earnings, that's been your focus. These girls are clearly hot enough to work in the local clubs and would rather the low (essentially no) milage option of DBA because of the advantages it offers. Read the threads here about how much women don't like high milage expectations or being groped. Just imagine a club where instead of having to argue the guy owes the dancer a few bucks for groping a dancer the patron might well get arrested. A club where management actually cares about keeping things ultra clean and respectful so would side with the dancer. DBA means a stripper never has an expectation of doing anything with anyone ever including LDs. When she has to touch a guy at all intimately, she's getting paid (in service or cash) a lot. She gets to work with really engaging and artistic women and men. She gets to meet clients whom she aspires to know. And in exchange the money sucks (excluding takeout). Some really hot strippers say "deal". Most strippers wouldn't want that deal, but if 5% do that's plenty to keep the club operating. I don't have any trouble seeing why some some women pick DBA over other Oxnard/LA area clubs. Take the arguments about dives vs. luxury clubs and just push them to an extreme. Read the LA threads about what the dancers in most clubs are dealing with.

But whether you do or don't see it, my argument has been that these clubs exist and are growing. You were giving Oxnard as a place where these clubs don't exist, DBA is one of many examples that they certainly do exist and are available to the people who club in Oxnard. And more importantly DBA provides an example that isn't urban hip-hop, but aims upper class white.

yoda57us
02-22-2014, 10:06 PM
But whether you do or don't see it, my argument has been that these clubs exist and are growing. You were giving Oxnard as a place where these clubs don't exist, DBA is one of many examples that they certainly do exist and are available to the people who club in Oxnard. And more importantly DBA provides an example that isn't urban hip-hop, but aims upper class white.

You're gonna have to help me out here KW. There are three strip clubs listed on TUSCL for Oxnard but none are called DBA. I actually don't see a strip club in the entire state of California called DBA.

https://www.tuscl.net/c.php?CID=399

Could you please post a link to this club's website?

charlotte.
02-22-2014, 11:07 PM
You're gonna have to help me out here KW. There are three strip clubs listed on TUSCL for Oxnard but none are called DBA. I actually don't see a strip club in the entire state of California called DBA.

https://www.tuscl.net/c.php?CID=399

Could you please post a link to this club's website?

I don't think he's talking about a real club. there are a lot of goddamn shitholes in that area both strip clubs and non strip clubs. lots of sex trafficking in that area too. id bet he's talking about something that's more in line with aamps/naked cafes/whatever. its a really depressing area to be in. no girl chooses to be there.

of course, he could just be making this up too, considering everything in this thread seems to be about make believe clubs that only exist in movies.

knightwish
02-23-2014, 12:01 AM
Could you please post a link to this club's website?

http://www.dbahollywood.com

When I went there was more of an S&M theme. The current incarnation I've heard described as a "naked druggy Marie Antoinette theme" or "a transexual Moulin Rouge-infused playground”:
36463

A photo gallery from LA Weekly: http://www.laweekly.com/slideshow/lina-in-la-exclusive-look-at-dba-4311483

Gia2608
02-23-2014, 12:19 AM
^^^^ Looks just like the ads the OP was talking about for E11ven. How weird. They may in fact be some of the same images.

Gia2608
02-23-2014, 12:24 AM
How is it set up inside? Are there separate rooms, any kind of distinction of "Here's the room where you pay for fantasy women" and "Here's the room where you hit on regular women" ?

Its Miami. There are vey few 'regular" women unless they are tourists. Boob and nose jobs here are the norm for bartenders, real estate agents, even school teachers.

I went to Vivid today with a friend to check it out. Gorgeous building and they have the potential to be the best club in Miami however they need to figure out what they are trying to do with the place and they have very little seating inside of the main part of the club.

knightwish
02-23-2014, 01:20 AM
^^^^ Looks just like the ads the OP was talking about for E11ven. How weird. They may in fact be some of the same images.

Gia, my opinion is that Miami is way ahead of the curve. I've never done E11 (though I would totally love to, and will the next time I'm in Miami). E11 is bigger, I'm gonna ballpark about 4x the floorspace. E11 is 24/7 DBA aims for an experience 5x a week. The both aim to class the whole thing up. So they both use euphemisms.
DBA is a "cabaret" with "erotic performance art in a social setting"
At E11 bouncers are "VIP service valets" who work in the "conversation rooms"
There are no LDs at DBA but there are "interactive theatrical performances"

I don't think E11 has gone quite so retro as DBA's current show. But I see what you mean in terms of style. DBA is based on The Box in London. The owner is Simon Hammerstein, I think grandson of the Rogers and Hammerstein; Hammerstreins. Anyway YouTube has a cool video for the The Box (since it is YouTube everyone is dressed), which has a selection of some of the shows from DBA's older sibling:


http://youtu.be/v0_rpdHz7ks

The E11Even video feels pretty similar. (posted here):

http://www.11miami.com/videos/Eleven_Web_Version_2.mp4

Good comparison with DBA! I agree with you.

yoda57us
02-23-2014, 08:35 AM
When I went there was more of an S&M theme. The current incarnation I've heard described as a "naked druggy Marie Antoinette theme" or "a transexual Moulin Rouge-infused playground”:

OK, so, to be clear, It's not actually a strip club, it's not in Oxnard and you just threw this BS into the thread to try and support your argument. OK, thanks, got it!

knightwish
02-23-2014, 09:25 AM
OK, so, to be clear, It's not actually a strip club, it's not in Oxnard and you just threw this BS into the tread to try and support your argument. OK, thanks, got it!

Right, because your argument that these places can't possibly exist, no scratch that they do exist but they are rare, no scratch that they are common but only in select areas to select communities (i.e. blacks) and not to the general demographics...

Yoda, cut the crap. DBA isn't in Oxnard but it is as I said from the very first post it is within easy driving distance of Oxnard. There are no strip clubs in Princeton that doesn't mean I don't go to any regularly. Strip club patrons in the LA area have cars and are comfortable using them. Oxnard to DBA is a 50 minutes drive during non-rush hour traffic, that's nothing by LA standards. DBA is a place accessible to Oxnard patrons where men pay to see erotic dancing with no expectation of getting lap-dances which is something you've been arguing for two weeks can't possibly happen and pointed to Oxnard as an example of where it couldn't happen. On top of that DBA it isn't aimed at the urban hip-hop crowd. But if you want to go back to urban hip-hop there is also a KoD spin off in the area called Secret Sundayz.

As for it not being a strip club. Your argument has been that men won't pay for erotic dancing and entertainment. Women who work at DBA get on stage and strip. Men pay. DBA is a licensed erotic cabaret which is the same designation as strip clubs are in that area.

So it is a strip club and it is for Oxnard. How about trying a response of: OK you are right. There are these kinds of clubs all over the country. It is a type of club growing and expanding during a period where the rest of the industry has been contracting. Obviously there is a market for it, and a fairly large one at that.

Wow do you ever have a shitty attitude when the facts contradict your theories about how everyone on the planet has the same taste you do.

yoda57us
02-23-2014, 10:31 AM
The only crap here is coming from you and your ever-growing desperation in trying to be the harbinger of some sort of game changing evolution in strip club entertainment. The bottom line remains that these super clubs (the ones that actually DO exist and actually ARE strip clubs) are a hybrid that, while they do draw crowds and make money (at least for the owners) are only practical and will only be profitable in urban areas with the appropriate economic and cultural demographic to support them. It simply is not going to play in Peoria.

LOL, if by "shitty attitude" you mean that I refuse to let you just make stuff up here, well, I can totally live with that. That being said, I haven't seen you post any actual facts for quite a while now...

I think I've made my point here KW, you have your fun though....I'm out on this one.

Djoser
02-23-2014, 06:11 PM
...men pay to see erotic dancing with no expectation of getting lap-dances...

That would be me. I never, ever get lapdances--though I do like buying them for women friends or other dancers in the club who genuinely appreciate them.

I'd really like to see less focus on grinding lapdances in private rooms or booths with all the concomitant increase in extras/demands for BJs, HJs, etc.

I don't think I am alone, and as I have said i have seen quite a few high rollers who avoid the whole lapdance thing. But I'm not sure how viable the concept is anymore:


It simply is not going to play in Peoria.

Exactly the problem. Too many guys want lapdances in the clubs in most areas, and too many dancers are now dependent on them as their primary source of income, despite having to deal with all the guys trying to finger them and so forth.


It remains to be seen how well clubs like E11even and Vivid will go over, in areas that just might be able to support them if they are managed correctly--i.e. every effort s made to cater to the dancers and make sure they make as much money as possible.

knightwish
02-23-2014, 08:11 PM
This idea of constantly debating whether a model that's been proven for multiple very successful clubs all over the United States is a viable one if frankly stupid.

That being said I do have some insight on E11even. While finding articles on E11even I noted the financial backers, 11USA Group, was saying Miami was the first of 7-9 E11even clubs. NY, SF, LV are in the next round and in the works with the other venues not announced yet. E11even costs $40m, which means these guys plus their debt partners are in something like $100m already with a $1/4b commitment in the near future. So I wanted to figure out who 11USA Group since that's a rather considerable commitment to this model. Turns out it is: Dennis DeGori, Gino LoPinto, Ken DeGori, Derick Henry and Daniel Solomon. michele11, you want people who are experts, some of those names I recognize and those guys are experts. For example Dennis DeGori. DeGori has been running successful clubs since the mid 1980s with Flash Dance, then he helped turn the NYC scene around in the late 1980s, Chicago and finally turned Jaguar/Scores LV around as owner not just manager. A 3 decade track record of successful and profitable operations with a strong return on investment.

Anyway getting to the main point, by 2016 or so we should have at least a half dozen of these classy stage oriented mega clubs targeting the white community, with an economic model similar to the hip-hop clubs targeting the black community. So the subtext of this thread has been what works in clubs. I think it makes sense to close with a quote from a few years ago from DeGori which indicate where his thinking is:

The first thing that's interesting is why he the believes the clubs he bought / took over had failed under the previous ownership:



Good money to be made in adult entertainment and a lot of people aren’t that sophisticated and they figure if they open a club with a couple of girls, and they make a couple of dollars, they’re happy. No one was doing that creatively. The only club close was Club Paradise...I had a management contract. I operated it. We did the shows—we did the nice big shows. I tried to make it nightcluby, which I think I was pretty successful in doing—high energy, a good meeting place even without the girls. Did some shows on stage, some theatrical things, did some cool things—it made it a little more nightcluby. I still didn’t have the facility to make it what I wanted it to be....


What I found a little surprising is he's opposed to the dancer being the primary hustler, he thinks that damages the experience. A lot of this runs very contrary to what you see on hustle hut for example. He's aware of the financial incentives but so far hasn't switched back to a pure employment model to really fix it:



First of all I go with family, people with good chemistry. I get a management team, a floor team, and a service team, and they have to treat each other with respect. If the respect thing doesn’t happen, then you can’t be part of the thing. Entertainers, we treat them with respect and everyone who works with me treats them with respect. They don’t find that everywhere. They work together as a team. The team’s job is to match good girls with guys. The guys at the door, you find him a table, make sure the bartender is taking care of him, find out what he’s looking for, and put them together. So we work very hard at putting girls with the guys cause that’s what guys come here for. Job #1 is: I force that issue. I don’t let them stand around. I don’t let them fend for themselves. It’s the responsibility of everyone for matchmaking; put them together to make money.

A couple of waitresses, a floor host, they work together as a team to make sure the service and “experience” is as good as possible, and put the girl with the guy. If the girls don’t make money they’re not gonna stay. But for me, I like ladies. I like quality things. I like quality girls. It takes some time to build a roster. I try not to leave the girls unattended to their own vices. ...

The most important thing to me with entertainers is their adaptability—their ability to sit with a customer and have a conversation, and have some social etiquette. Because it’s not just about dancing. It’s the “whole experience.” An entertainer has to be multi-dimensional. I don’t care if a girl is a ten is she doesn’t have respect for my guests. If all she wants to do is dance and go home and not spend time and not be respectful, and not create an “experience” for the guests, then it’s not gonna work for me. Do I want to lose a 10? No! I need a girl who, when you talk to her regularly you get the feeling that she’s paying attention and is interested. She’s not looking away and thinking about gee, I can tell he’s not going to spend money. I want them to try, and that’s what we teach them—that you’re an entertainer. In a lot of places they just open their doors. Guys pour in, that’s it and they shove them a drink and they’ve done their job. It’s difficult to compete with because it makes it very, very easy for the entertainers to just come and go. I have to compete with that. A lot of girls like this environment, a beautiful environment. They’re treated with a lot of respect, and they have better customers. Some nights we have 7, 8, 9, 10 Platinum American Express customers. We have a very good quality of guests and quality entertainers. It’s a big club, and we really have something for everyone.


There is no single quote that is understandable out of context but he does explain the low milage. Selling milage leads to prostitution. Systemized prostitution forces managers / owners to get involved in systemized bribery. Bribery is where the massive fines and shutdowns come in that break even successful clubs.

charlotte.
02-23-2014, 08:59 PM
I've worked in miami, lv, ny, and sf. one of those cities is not like the other.

for starters, no new clubs can even open in sf because no new adult permits are being issued.

2nd, aren't these guys the same mobsters who ruined several clubs in lv? they brought more prostitution. jaguar/scores no longer exist but now that I think about it they did just open a new nightclub featuring dancers just like you described. it brought almost no clientel, i think there was a shooting, there was cheap prostitution, and I'm pretty sure it had to close due to making no money. the dancers were butt ugly btw.

this won't work in manhattan either. even if there was a demand for this, the rent in manhattan is way too high to have a club that doesn't have income coming from vip sales. and outer borough clubs are definitely not high class.

anyway. strip clubs are about the dancers. you can't put a club like this in any of those cities because no good dancers will work there. all 3 cities are about big money from rooms and no dancer would voluntarily turn down that to work her ass off for dollars.

knightwish
02-23-2014, 09:04 PM
Exactly the problem. Too many guys want lapdances in the clubs in most areas, and too many dancers are now dependent on them as their primary source of income, despite having to deal with all the guys trying to finger them and so forth.

It remains to be seen how well clubs like E11even and Vivid will go over, in areas that just might be able to support them if they are managed correctly--i.e. every effort s made to cater to the dancers and make sure they make as much money as possible.

There is no way to tell but KoD may be rather indicative of what happens. The low milage cuts everyone's earnings but hurts the less talented and the less beautiful much more. The large crowds boost everyone's earnings some but still unequally. So while women can all make at least pretty good money you end up with a much wider spread inside the clubs than exist today. IMHO milage is an equalizing factor. There might only be a factor of 2 or 3 for what the average guy is willing to pay to have sex with a 6 vs having sex with a 10. There might very well be a factor of 20-100 between what he's willing to pay for airdances from a 6 vs. a 10.

There is also another factor which compounds this from the supply side, job satisfaction. As the clubs get classier and milage decreases stripping goes back from being sex work to being show business. Women (and men) are willing to earn less as artists than they would in vanilla jobs while they generally demand earning more than vanilla jobs for sex work. Burlesque performers earn way less than LD oriented strippers. Excluding takeout the women at DBA get paid what they would get paid a bit more than a typical stage actress makes, far far less than what they would make at a more normal area strip club for women of their beauty and talent. OTOH assuming that the NYC burlesque scene is normative for the rest of the country job satisfaction in burlesque is way higher.

Which is why I suspect what really has to happen is much more diversification of clubs. Clubs start targeting more narrow segments of the market more directly than they do today. Strip club become more like restaurants where pricing structures, what's on the menu, and service levels vary wildly. That change IMHO is what really does boost the total size of the strip club economy.

michele11
02-23-2014, 09:18 PM
This idea of constantly debating whether a model that's been proven for multiple very successful clubs all over the United States is a viable one if frankly stupid.

That being said I do have some insight on E11even. While finding articles on E11even I noted the financial backers, 11USA Group, was saying Miami was the first of 7-9 E11even clubs. NY, SF, LV are in the next round and in the works with the other venues not announced yet. E11even costs $40m, which means these guys plus their debt partners are in something like $100m already with a $1/4b commitment in the near future. So I wanted to figure out who 11USA Group since that's a rather considerable commitment to this model. Turns out it is: Dennis DeGori, Gino LoPinto, Ken DeGori, Derick Henry and Daniel Solomon. michele11, you want people who are experts, some of those names I recognize and those guys are experts. For example Dennis DeGori. DeGori has been running successful clubs since the mid 1980s with Flash Dance, then he helped turn the NYC scene around in the late 1980s, Chicago and finally turned Jaguar/Scores LV around as owner not just manager. A 3 decade track record of successful and profitable operations with a strong return on investment.

Anyway getting to the main point, by 2016 or so we should have at least a half dozen of these classy stage oriented mega clubs targeting the white community, with an economic model similar to the hip-hop clubs targeting the black community. So the subtext of this thread has been what works in clubs. I think it makes sense to close with a quote from a few years ago from DeGori which indicate where his thinking is:

The first thing that's interesting is why he the believes the clubs he bought / took over had failed under the previous ownership:



Good money to be made in adult entertainment and a lot of people aren’t that sophisticated and they figure if they open a club with a couple of girls, and they make a couple of dollars, they’re happy. No one was doing that creatively. The only club close was Club Paradise...I had a management contract. I operated it. We did the shows—we did the nice big shows. I tried to make it nightcluby, which I think I was pretty successful in doing—high energy, a good meeting place even without the girls. Did some shows on stage, some theatrical things, did some cool things—it made it a little more nightcluby. I still didn’t have the facility to make it what I wanted it to be....


What I found a little surprising is he's opposed to the dancer being the primary hustler, he thinks that damages the experience. A lot of this runs very contrary to what you see on hustle hut for example. He's aware of the financial incentives but so far hasn't switched back to a pure employment model to really fix it:



First of all I go with family, people with good chemistry. I get a management team, a floor team, and a service team, and they have to treat each other with respect. If the respect thing doesn’t happen, then you can’t be part of the thing. Entertainers, we treat them with respect and everyone who works with me treats them with respect. They don’t find that everywhere. They work together as a team. The team’s job is to match good girls with guys. The guys at the door, you find him a table, make sure the bartender is taking care of him, find out what he’s looking for, and put them together. So we work very hard at putting girls with the guys cause that’s what guys come here for. Job #1 is: I force that issue. I don’t let them stand around. I don’t let them fend for themselves. It’s the responsibility of everyone for matchmaking; put them together to make money.

A couple of waitresses, a floor host, they work together as a team to make sure the service and “experience” is as good as possible, and put the girl with the guy. If the girls don’t make money they’re not gonna stay. But for me, I like ladies. I like quality things. I like quality girls. It takes some time to build a roster. I try not to leave the girls unattended to their own vices. ...

The most important thing to me with entertainers is their adaptability—their ability to sit with a customer and have a conversation, and have some social etiquette. Because it’s not just about dancing. It’s the “whole experience.” An entertainer has to be multi-dimensional. I don’t care if a girl is a ten is she doesn’t have respect for my guests. If all she wants to do is dance and go home and not spend time and not be respectful, and not create an “experience” for the guests, then it’s not gonna work for me. Do I want to lose a 10? No! I need a girl who, when you talk to her regularly you get the feeling that she’s paying attention and is interested. She’s not looking away and thinking about gee, I can tell he’s not going to spend money. I want them to try, and that’s what we teach them—that you’re an entertainer. In a lot of places they just open their doors. Guys pour in, that’s it and they shove them a drink and they’ve done their job. It’s difficult to compete with because it makes it very, very easy for the entertainers to just come and go. I have to compete with that. A lot of girls like this environment, a beautiful environment. They’re treated with a lot of respect, and they have better customers. Some nights we have 7, 8, 9, 10 Platinum American Express customers. We have a very good quality of guests and quality entertainers. It’s a big club, and we really have something for everyone.


There is no single quote that is understandable out of context but he does explain the low milage. Selling milage leads to prostitution. Systemized prostitution forces managers / owners to get involved in systemized bribery. Bribery is where the massive fines and shutdowns come in that break even successful clubs.
I never asked you that. I asked you to not respond to my posts! Also I know Dennis extremely well and Michael J peters( you may want to google him too as he is a pioneer as he started the whole gentlemens club model and franchised clubs all over the country. I know pretty much every big player in this business....

knightwish
02-23-2014, 09:55 PM
I've worked in miami, lv, ny, and sf. one of those cities is not like the other.
for starters, no new clubs can even open in sf because no new adult permits are being issued.

Charlotte, don't know what to tell you. That list came from DeGori, I don't think he's lying. He's making these statements publicly and repeatedly for example: http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/crossfade/2014/01/e11even_miami_interview_new-york_vegas_san-francisco.php?page=2


2nd, aren't these guys the same mobsters who ruined several clubs in lv?

No those are the guys who bought the club in 2005 from those mobsters. The club (at that time Jaguar) was raided over bribery in 2003. DeGori turned it into Scores, made it profitable and then made a lot of money selling it for $21m to the Ricks guys. Ricks removed the distinctives and sort of floundered first trying to compete with Safire and then tried turning it into a locals club, failed and closed it in 2011. I went to Jaguar but never went under any of the other two incarnations so I can't comment on quality of the talent after the Jaguar days. From what I've heard Rick's never really found their footing. The club has a bad location.

With Jaguars there was blatant prostitution so the club was able to attract clients.

With DeGori the club focused on entertainment. So one week someone comes in and spends the night with stripper magicians. The next there is a complex stage show... so the club was able to attract clients who wanted an experience. Scores did well.

With Ricks it became more traditional and business crashed. To be a successful locals club they would have had to slash prices ($6 beer, $10 LDs, $100 / 15 min VIP...) and a price war would have damaged the Rick's name. The managers felt it would do better as an independent club but at 25k sq ft it is too big and too expensive for most independents to buy.


this won't work in manhattan either. even if there was a demand for this, the rent in manhattan is way too high to have a club that doesn't have income coming from vip sales. and outer borough clubs are definitely not high class.

E11even has very pricey VIPs. DBA (the one I was talking about in LA) doesn't have VIPs. DBA is even more in the artsy erotic cabaret direction than E11even: no LDs, no VIPs.


anyway. strip clubs are about the dancers. you can't put a club like this in any of those cities because no good dancers will work there. all 3 cities are about big money from rooms and no dancer would voluntarily turn down that to work her ass off for dollars.

I'd be happy to put money on him having no problem getting dancers. But assuming he isn't lying about those locations we'll know in a few years. Either those clubs go up or they don't. DeGori was big player in revitalizing the NYC strip scene and creating the high end clubs you are talking about. My feeling is he knows the market, he at least in part created the NYC market.

Djoser
02-24-2014, 04:28 AM
Too tired from work tonight to read all this, but I did see a little.

It must be said, from all reports DeGori knows his shit, and if anyone can make a club like E11even work, he's the guy to do it. The future remains to be seen. I want to take a road trip up there soon & check it out.

SubSpace666
07-03-2019, 03:59 AM
Too tired from work tonight to read all this, but I did see a little.

It must be said, from all reports DeGori knows his shit, and if anyone can make a club like E11even work, he's the guy to do it. The future remains to be seen. I want to take a road trip up there soon & check it out.

Seems like e11even is is doing well in 2019

OmegaWest
07-03-2019, 02:20 PM
well since this was brought back from the dead of 5 years ago.

Lets enlighten the famous Knightwish.

His fantasy dream most famous perfect club in the world, King of Diamonds, flamed out in grand fashion. Not only in 2014 when the actual records were found, to the present empty shell, KOD was a fraud, from the night they opened. Years of unpaid taxes, loans, and vendors. They had to bring in alcohol from non state sources to stay open as long as they did, because the business method they used (ie pay their own lifestyle before the bills) was a huge failure. No matter how many stacks were tossed, or brinks trucks arrived, it was nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Knightwish, you trying to compare this incredible Urban failure to a normal business run SC, shows two things. Your math is needing a new education, and you really have no clue about clubs in general.

Survey says to the greatest successful strip club super club model ever designed? Failure in everyway. Rappers and (porn stars no offense to the ones i know in the industry) and whatever else, are not business people, and have now proven do not belong beyond the investor stage.

oh and your $300 bottle giving away $100 theory is more bullshit. $300 to 30 if your lucky, since you have to pay for the bottle to begin with therefor if you have a brain you recoup your cost first, before you go giving all profit margin away after that. But then again you work under the KOD system, so it works for you.

E11even under DeGori is run not only by Business minds, but Industry Proven Business minds. It has tweaked itself since opening, and as such with its multiple venues in one style, works with a varied dynamic. They ebb and flow and because they do so it still works.

However, it does have its issues, and they try to deal with them as they come. Doubtful they will try to open more locations, because simply Miami it is possible, maybe Vegas, but imo nowhere else.

Djoser
07-16-2019, 01:00 PM
well since this was brought back from the dead of 5 years ago.

E11even under DeGori is run not only by Business minds, but Industry Proven Business minds. It has tweaked itself since opening, and as such with its multiple venues in one style, works with a varied dynamic. They ebb and flow and because they do so it still works.



Ha I've got a running bet with the GM there, about what happens in 2020. Winner gets a fifth of his choice. He's a great guy.

OmegaWest
07-16-2019, 01:12 PM
Ha I've got a running bet with the GM there, about what happens in 2020. Winner gets a fifth of his choice. He's a great guy.

Hes like MJP, forgotten more than most people will ever learn about the business