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Djoser
02-12-2014, 01:27 AM
A lot of my industry friends have been psyched about the opening of E11even in Miami. The advertising graphics were the best I have seen yet for a stripclub (OK not saying much considering the shitty ads for so many clubs, but this stuff was REALLY good), the interior and exterior design is excellent, as far as I can tell from the many pictures I've seen. Clearly they spent a hell of a lot on making it as good as it can be. And the auditions for DJs were very tough I heard.

Then you have the new Vivid stripclub, 30,000 square feet on 2 1/2 acres and a fucking swimming pool coming soon, supposedly.

Also in Miami you have Tootsies which is enormous, seems more like a mall than a stripclub almost--except of course there are a lot of half naked women running around.

In principle I like the idea, and I also like--again in principle--the idea of fusing traditional nightclubs with the stripclubs somehow. Just so long as it is done in a way to ensure the dancers can still make good money. I.E. find a way to eliminate the confusion of some customers that it IS A STRIPCLUB, though there imight also be a dance club and/or lounge club in the same complex, or after 4 AM or whatever.


But truthfully, when I go out, I usually much prefer a smaller, more comfortable club where I know the bartenders and waitstaff, and a fair number of the dancers.

Melonie
02-13-2014, 01:09 AM
^^^ a logical step to try and tap the 'top 10%' earners customer base.

Selina M
02-13-2014, 09:05 AM
I haven't had the privilege of seeing one of these places. The girls at E11even were saying it was confusing for the customers with the civilian women running around, and were concerned it would impact their money.
How is it set up inside? Are there separate rooms, any kind of distinction of "Here's the room where you pay for fantasy women" and "Here's the room where you hit on regular women" ?

michele11
02-13-2014, 04:31 PM
The reviews in club chat don't look promising for this club. We already have enough couples and women coming in now a days that I just think it's a recipe for disaster. I have had luck in clubs that have after hours clubs. Like clubs that close at a certain time and open an after hours set up. Diamond in Denver has this, mens club in Raleigh and Hilton head. I'm sure there are more of I don't know of. I've had nights were since the clubs in Denver close at 2 were I went in after dark and made in a few hours what I made in the regular club because it was guys in for the conventions tat didn't get out until late and it was full of white collar guys. I also had nights were I went in and it was a waste( just high couples or guys in general on drugs) so it's always a crap shoot and you have to pay to go in so you never really know until your in there what you'll end up with.

Vyanka
02-13-2014, 07:36 PM
The strip club night club mash is a terrible idea. The club i was at started doing this with promoters bringing night club patrons (lots of female patrons too acting like girls gone wild) & the club has gone to shit. The manager is stressing out and he wonders why. Shit well, they're doing everything wrong for an upscale gentlemen's club.

It's a strip club. Treat it as such. Not a place to sit and chill with your crew while not spending on dancers. Customers have come in not knowing it was a strip club and thought lap dances were free. Lol...fkn comical.

Terrible terrible terrible. I fkn hate the idea with a passion.

Also, porn star features drag in some weird fucks that just sit there. Taking up space, while spenders should be sitting there. Grrr... gtfo of here.

michele11
02-13-2014, 08:20 PM
^Haha!

ytqclys
02-15-2014, 01:51 AM
My fav is always fighting with the manager when he wants her to work Friday or Saturday. She says that on those nights the club fills up with people who gawk at the stage show, but don't buy dances and don't even tip. Clubs with this business pattern need to get real, and go back to paying the dancers for dancing on stage, like in the pre-table-dance days.

knightwish
02-15-2014, 06:06 AM
As Minnow pointed out I'm pointing to these sorts of clubs in the African American community as bring back good stage shows and I think they are healthy for the white community as well.

There are dance clubs where there were women on staff who dance with men for money. These were really popular in the 40-60s, but I suspect there are still some today. The basic gist is guy is paying a party girl for her time. I could see this working in a more modern club. Guy goes to the club, strikes out and then turns towards the professional who soothes the damaged ego. He gets to have a night of dancing, flirting and kissing; improves his club game for the next time, and what could have been a bad night turns into a great night.

Also think about regular bars where escorts intermix with girls possibly looking to get picked up. There the pitch is pretty simple. You get a girl who is younger, prettier and less junk for $200-300 vs. having to sit all night, take your chances and then deal with possible after issues.

To pick a totally different context where I've seen this work well... in BDSM parties there are often prodoms. Prodoms will often play at these clubs. They get a couple advantages
They get marketing, being seen to play by prospective clients. They often are doing this sort of play with regular clients and this is a rewards for them (which builds loyalty).
If they play with new people, they can get to meet and be tried out by prospective clients
Some will do paid sessions at a reduced rate, they can often have a fairly good hourly earn because of the frequency example: 4.5 hrs worked during an 7 hour party.


I'm not sure how applicable this is because BDSM clubs are exhibitionistic. In general in dance clubs and strip clubs people want to go private. You still have the same dynamic. Middle aged non-pro women into femdom don't like having to compete with prodoms but prodoms bring in lots of single middle aged men who are marriage / dating material for the middle aged women so while there is some competition there is also some very good support for each other's ecosystems. They kinda get each other's respective roles. They also can create gender balance because they just add more women to the mix which makes it more comfortable for the social play women than having a 3::1 ratio would be.

knightwish
02-15-2014, 09:06 AM
My fav is always fighting with the manager when he wants her to work Friday or Saturday. She says that on those nights the club fills up with people who gawk at the stage show, but don't buy dances and don't even tip. Clubs with this business pattern need to get real, and go back to paying the dancers for dancing on stage, like in the pre-table-dance days.

Really? I've met dancers who like day shift more than nights but I don't think I've ever met a dancer who likes say Tuesday night more than Friday night! That's a new one. The club has got to be way overbooking the number of women on Friday or Saturday night to create that effect. If you don't mind me asking which club?

As far as newbies in a club who don't know what to do. Look every dancer would rather have experienced men who walk in the door planning to drop hundreds or (in select cities) thousands. Part of being in any service industry is training the customer base. My customers want me to work for free too. 12 guys buying 1.5 LDs an hour average and tipping 20% on top of that is a table spending $432/hr. If 2 dancers are working that table they are having a good time. Men love to buy dances for each other if the dancer creates the dynamic. That's not a spend rate that average guys can't maintain. If I remember there was a thread years back where Rebecca Avalon (who posts here still a bit) as part of her training course teaches dancers how to sell tables all night long rather easily.

But if 5 dancers are working that table its only going to be a so-so night. While if 10 dancers are working that table it is going to suck. So if the club is just overbook weekends then there isn't much to be done unless your friend is way better than the other dancers.

michele11
02-15-2014, 09:51 AM
Are you in the business? Your info is wayyy outdated! Most clubs have open schedules, hence you never know how many dancers will be there on any given night. I also sometimes( depending what club and city I'm in) prefer weekdays to weekends because weekends are a younger partier crowd mixed with lots of couples( young couples) and weekdays are more business clientele.

knightwish
02-15-2014, 10:08 AM
Are you in the business?

Nope.


Your info is wayyy outdated! Most clubs have open schedules, hence you never know how many dancers will be there on any given night.

Most of the clubs I know of schedule dancers and use weekends as an inducement for bad shifts. Friday & Saturday night are when most of the dancers I know often make the majority or just short of their income for the entire week.


I also sometimes( depending what club and city I'm in) prefer weekdays to weekends because weekends are a younger partier crowd mixed with lots of couples( young couples) and weekdays are more business clientele.

Well that's good. I've been in clubs where majority of the club was younger and poorer. If that's the case I can have a great time on weekends. But so far my local clubs aren't like that. I avoid clubs on weekend nights mostly but if the dancers start getting annoyed by the partiers that could create a best of all possible worlds where I get to pay for a reasonable price and the club is so busy that whatever we do doesn't draw attention.

ytqclys
02-15-2014, 01:09 PM
Seem like at my fav's club, a dancer who isn't scheduled can just show up and work, so maybe that's part of the problem.

There is another dancer at her club that she envies. This girl can earn big with the guys who want a fantasy relationship, without having to see them outside the club. I am the crude, easy type custy. She is very beautiful, she aims to please within her boundaries, and I'm a happy camper. She has the usual black dancer problem -- no $$$ from tight-assed white guys and self-hating black guys.

minnow
02-15-2014, 07:46 PM
http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoS-MCnTPtQ

Knightwish, you're looking more like the tail chasing dog in the above video link. Hey just because a Bentley or Lambo dealer does well in Hollywood or West Palm, does that mean that they should open shop in cities like Marquette MI, Salina KS, Charleston (WV or SC), or a multitude of other "flyover states" cities ? Several dancers have already expressed their wishes NOT to work in proposed club. Several blue posters have already said that they don't go to clubs for the stage show, yet you continue to beat the same drum over and over. I'm finding this thread and other CC thread to be as entertaining as watching the dog chase its own tail video.

Vyanka
02-15-2014, 07:56 PM
As usual.... what's going on here? Lol.

knightwish
02-16-2014, 01:28 PM
As usual.... what's going on here? Lol.

Hi Vyanka. Well mostly this is a discussion of superclubs which I think is healthy for the industry though the way dancers raise monty shifts somewhat, and probably the type of dancer shifts. Minnow is bringing another thread in customer corner about what drove down attendance. I listed 8 reasons and in the long discussion about one of them (drop in quality of dancing) the subject of (primarily black) superclubs has come up because these clubs emphasize dancing quality / large stage tips and VIP dancing over selling LDs. So it is somewhat related. The latest response doesn't make any sense but as far as I can make out Minnow is I think arguing he doesn't like these clubs therefore they don't exist and aren't successful.

yoda57us
02-16-2014, 02:00 PM
12 guys buying 1.5 LDs an hour average and tipping 20% on top of that is a table spending $432/hr. If 2 dancers are working that table they are having a good time. Men love to buy dances for each other if the dancer creates the dynamic. That's not a spend rate that average guys can't maintain. If I remember there was a thread years back where Rebecca Avalon (who posts here still a bit) as part of her training course teaches dancers who to sell tables all night long rather easily.

But if 5 dancers are working that table its only going to be a so-so night. While if 10 dancers are working that table it is going to suck. So if the club is just overbook weekends then there isn't much to be done unless your friend is way better than the other dancers.

I do so love strip club math...especially when it's being explained by a customer...

It's good to see you waving the "Better stage dances will save the industry" flag through multiple threads and multiple sections of the site KW. I wouldn't want to hog all of the fun over in Customer Convo. You are still however glossing over the most important aspect of this: better stage dances and non dance-buying "customers" don't help a dancer's bottom line. You are never going to get groundswell of support for this silliness on a site populated by dancers and a core group of long-time customers who understand how a dancer earns a living.

arielbriel
02-17-2014, 03:21 AM
LOLLLL, cause flipping upside down on a pole is going to earn me 6 figures. Never selling lap dances is going to make me what I want a year..right. KW, please just stop with this ridiculous argument.

knightwish
02-17-2014, 06:18 AM
I do so love strip club math...especially when it's being explained by a customer...

It's good to see you waving the "Better stage dances will save the industry" flag through multiple threads and multiple sections of the site KW. I wouldn't want to hog all of the fun over in Customer Convo. You are still however glossing over the most important aspect of this: better stage dances and non dance-buying "customers" don't help a dancer's bottom line. You are never going to get groundswell of support for this silliness on a site populated by dancers and a core group of long-time customers who understand how a dancer earns a living.

Of course they make money.

1) Dancers sell time. They hang out with guys or groups of guys between sets. The guys they are hanging out with are the ones who throw a stack ($100 in singles) or more on stage .
2) Girls sell bottles. $300 bottle dancer makes $100. Back to the more old fashioned dancer make money selling drinks
3) They sell VIP rooms and take a percentage of the room.

LDs aren't the only way dancers can make money. This model is proven. This isn't some argument in theory about whether it might work, it does work in what is arguably the most successful strip club in the world.

knightwish
02-17-2014, 06:48 AM
LOLLLL, cause flipping upside down on a pole is going to earn me 6 figures. Never selling lap dances is going to make me what I want a year..right. KW, please just stop with this ridiculous argument.

Ariel I have no idea if the girls make $100-300k / year. If including dead times, they are averaging more like $60 / hr they probably are falling short of six figures or just barely crossing over. They don't have to hustle as hard, they don't have to deal with emotional needy nonsense of middle aged customers, they don't have to deal with heavy physical contact (at least outside of VIP). Heck I know a dancer whose main income stream is hustling pool. I suspect if she could was allowed to not sell LDs she'd jump at the chance. Grinding up against random guys in the LD room is something she hates about her job, though $20/4 min is pretty good money so she'll do it, but because she hates it she doesn't end up having to do much of it. Using her sexual whiles to make a guy lose his focus and beat his ass at pool and take his money that way is why she does her job.

On the other hand I know dancers at go-go rama who are fine with tons of grinding they just hate the talking / hustling part of the job. Different people have different preferences in working conditions. That's life.

And please don't judge my argument by Yoda's misleading statements. He's quoting me as saying things I've said precisely the opposite of.

yoda57us
02-17-2014, 10:29 AM
And please don't judge my argument by Yoda's misleading statements. He's quoting me as saying things I've said precisely the opposite of.

Eeeeeasy there sonny boy, I haven't "QUOTED" you as saying anything other than your exact words via use of this site's quote feature. If you don't agree with my opinions or interpretations of what you are posting here that's fine but they are my opinions and I have a right to them same as you. Don't accuse me of misquoting you when all I am doing is disagreeing with you.

Starling
02-17-2014, 12:37 PM
It's a strip club. Treat it as such. Not a place to sit and chill with your crew while not spending on dancers. Customers have come in not knowing it was a strip club and thought lap dances were free.

This sums it up well. I have worked in a club with that mash-up nightclub theme and honestly I felt more like a go-go dancer if anything. :shrug: It was as if the strippers were glorified go-go dancers, instead of being covered they were topless, and instead of being paid to work the strippers had to pay. I may as well be a go-go dancer if I want to work in a night club setting.

knightwish
02-17-2014, 12:44 PM
Eeeeeasy there sonny boy, I haven't "QUOTED" you as saying anything other than your exact words via use of this site's quote feature. If you don't agree with my opinions or interpretations of what you are posting here that's fine but they are my opinions and I have a right to them same as you. Don't accuse me of misquoting you when all I am doing is disagreeing with you.

Yoda I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, absolutely feel free. But no you aren't entitled to your own interpretations of my meaning. I do have a problem with you attributing to me opinions I've explicitly indicated I don't hold. If I say X is likely to increase Y and decrease Z, then a post saying I said that X would increase Z isn't disagreeing it is misrepresenting.

yoda57us
02-17-2014, 02:03 PM
Yoda I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, absolutely feel free.
Cool, thanks.

But no you aren't entitled to your own interpretations of my meaning.
Actually I am. That's called an opinion.

I do have a problem with you attributing to me opinions I've explicitly indicated I don't hold. If I say X is likely to increase Y and decrease Z, then a post saying I said that X would increase Z isn't disagreeing it is misrepresenting.
Again, these are my responses to the words you are typing. If you want to blog about this stuff that's fine but if you post it on an open message board you have to accept the fact that people will contribute alternate opinions. In a perfect world the participants here read all of the posts and form their own opinion. It's not about word games KW. Opinion/interpretation/tomato/tomato blah blah blah! Say whatever you want but I get to do the same. So does everyone else.

Sorry KW, I can't help it if no one seems to be agreeing with you here but your pontification on the subject at hand continues to almost completely ignore the concerns of the primary membership here on Stripper web-women who earn a living in strip clubs. If there was an opening in Washington DC for strip club owner's association lobbyist you would be a shoe-in for the gig but that's not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary focus of this site. To be blunt, you are basically prattling on to a group of dancers about how an enterprising faction of strip club owners have figured out a way to bring people into their clubs who don't spend money on dancers. To be fair I take no issue with your comments about dancers getting cuts of bottle sales, VIP sales or anything of that sort but selling dances is still the primary stock in trade for the majority of dancers in the vast majority of clubs all over the country. You can make all the claims you want about large tables full of men buying multiple dances from multiple dancers but if you actually read what dancers have been posting on this site for years that just doesn't ring true.

Let's review: Dancers know what works for dancers. This is a site primarily for dancers.

This doesn't mean that no one gets a differing opinion but it pretty much guarantees that differing opinions won't find a lot of support.

The vast majority of dancers are still independent contractors and even those who are employees still derive most of their income from selling dances. Customers who spend money on dancers, not by way of kick-back incentives from the club but actual money going directly from the customer to the dancer, is what the dancing membership here is concerned about.

michele11
02-17-2014, 03:50 PM
Of course they make money.

1) Dancers sell time. They hang out with guys or groups of guys between sets. The guys they are hanging out with are the ones who throw a stack ($100 in singles) or more on stage .
2) Girls sell bottles. $300 bottle dancer makes $100. Back to the more old fashioned dancer make money selling drinks
3) They sell VIP rooms and take a percentage of the room.

LDs aren't the only way dancers can make money. This model is proven. This isn't some argument in theory about whether it might work, it does work in what is arguably the most successful strip club in the world.
Though my mothers husband and my sister whom I use to work with coin me" the dancer who doesn't do dances", I have to laugh at this. As a dancer who rarely goes on stage unless I have to( I'm not one of those girls who really makes anything from the stage because I don't go on it and I'm not the jump in the air into a split, hang upside down in a split from the ceiling anymore) so when I do and since I work in clubs that aren't stage centric I may make 20 bucks. I strive to do vip all night so I don't have to go on stage and I mostly can just talk and make money. Though most clubs across the U.S this is impossible every night, all night unfortunately. Also selling time. What planet are you from? Maybe if a guy isn't interested they may and you a 20 or you may get the occasional guy who doesn't want dances and just wants to talk who hands you a hundred every know and again but that's not common. There are also clubs that don't have vip ( I just worked in one) and had to do dances( if I wanted to make any money and stage on the nights there wasn't enough girls to skip me) they do have an upstairs area were it's 25 to go up and you try to sell blocks of time and I did a few times but it's not the norn since the club has 20 dances. You can make money here but 4-5 hours feels like 7 to me at any other club. Also please tell me this most successful club in the world where this model works so well I must know...LOL.

yoda57us
02-17-2014, 05:15 PM
Of course they make money.

1) Dancers sell time. They hang out with guys or groups of guys between sets. The guys they are hanging out with are the ones who throw a stack ($100 in singles) or more on stage .
2) Girls sell bottles. $300 bottle dancer makes $100. Back to the more old fashioned dancer make money selling drinks
3) They sell VIP rooms and take a percentage of the room.

LDs aren't the only way dancers can make money. This model is proven. This isn't some argument in theory about whether it might work, it does work in what is arguably the most successful strip club in the world.

I'm lost here. Which club is this again? Also, I'm assuming that you've seen some sort of financial report on this place. Could you please post a link to it?

yoda57us
02-17-2014, 05:16 PM
Of course they make money.

1) Dancers sell time. They hang out with guys or groups of guys between sets. The guys they are hanging out with are the ones who throw a stack ($100 in singles) or more on stage .
2) Girls sell bottles. $300 bottle dancer makes $100. Back to the more old fashioned dancer make money selling drinks
3) They sell VIP rooms and take a percentage of the room.

LDs aren't the only way dancers can make money. This model is proven. This isn't some argument in theory about whether it might work, it does work in what is arguably the most successful strip club in the world.

I'm lost here. Which club is this again? Also, I'm assuming that you've seen some sort of financial report on this place. Could you please post a link to it?

knightwish
02-17-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm lost here. Which club is this again? Also, I'm assuming that you've seen some sort of financial report on this place. Could you please post a link to it?

The one I posted images from in the other thread KoD Miami: http://officialkod.com

In terms of financials. I wish I had them, would make my argument a lot easier, but it is privately held. OTOH consider the tip out $50+$10/half-hour till midnight and $20/half-hour after midnight. So for example on weekend night for the 10pm-6am shift that with an average of 60 dancers over the course of shift they would pull in $20k in tip outs on any given weekend night. I don't know of any club that comes close to those numbers for base tip out. Then you add on that most weekend nights $40-50 admission. Even on weekdays I think the low for admission is $20. For special events they have had a table charge of $1k-$2k (i.e. what you have to pay to reserve a table for the night). $100 parking fee on premium nights Having a truckload of Moet (sells for $450 on premium nights) sell out. A giveaway 2 years back of a $2.4m car. Having a rapper get a cash delivery directly from Brinks from his posse (supposedly $1m in cash).

How much do they make? No clue. But there is no way that club isn't mind boggling successful.

yoda57us
02-17-2014, 06:54 PM
Right, OK, and what does the average dancer make on a good weekend shift?

knightwish
02-17-2014, 09:30 PM
Right, OK, and what does the average dancer make on a good weekend shift?

First off remember I never asserted this was better for dancer's average earn, just an example about headcount.

But for dancers KoD from what I've read seems much more uneven than most strip clubs. Of course the ultimate prize in terms of earn is to get introduced to a NFL, NBA, rapper... and get married. How do you want to average in the many dancers who pulled in something like 1/2 of $25m for 3 years work in terms of average shift not even counting all the other money during those 3 years?

Dropping down from those there are star dancers. Skrawberry who is a star and has a rich client base indicates she consistently makes more tan $3k a shift. Tip Drill (another x-star) says she makes $8k / week and $12k / wk for her birthday week. From what I understand we have good figures on Tip Drill's earning (audited and deposed oath) because she was seriously injured at the club and either sued or was going to. No one seems to dispute there is a small group of dancers making multiple hundreds of thousands off this KoD system. Let's assume that level is the absolute top, I'll say there are 10 earning what would definitely at the very high end for a New York stripper whose regularly getting pulled into VIP.

Make It Rain (the HBO show) and newspaper estimates are that below star but still successful dancers probably are making $150k / yr. And that's off some VIPs, alcohol, and big stage tips. Which ain't bad at all for a low milage club. So lets say in addition to the 10 stars at any given time there are 100 of these women who can work the system.

At the low end it is hard to know. There are frequent very large tippers. But the girls who can't really sell VIPs, and can't sell to the tables willing to buy expensive bottles mostly have to rely on stage tips. Stage tips at KoD come from people tossing money on everyone and selling time to middle class large tippers. And here I just can't estimate very well. I gotta figure average dancers does 2-3x times for a set what the dancer do in a traditional club for a set so say $60 for a stage set or around $60 / hr or so want me to take a WAG. I could see a conservative estimate that could be lower. By definition these girls aren't the top 100 dancers from the other group. And the stage dancers aren't high touch like in many of the clubs where girls get tipped on stage. So if it is worse let's say $40. Throw in $5/hr because even if they aren't selling VIPs often they are selling them some, even if they aren't selling $300 often they are selling them some.

Then you have to add to that some huge spikes from very big tippers. For an extreme example the WorldStarHipHop's sixth anniversary party they made it rain $250k on the dancers. If we assume there were at most 100 of them on the floor and likely less, that's not bad even for a week. Those kind of large tippers are going to influence the average. Finally while KoD discourages LDs they do still have them. I gotta figure the dancers who can't court the bigger tippers, can't sell VIPs and can't sell alcohol may find some people who want a low milage dance and make an extra dollars $10 an hour on LDs and tableside dances (they have brought these back too). So continuing to pile speculation on speculation let's say the next few hundred dancers are making $75 / hr before tipping the club and likely $40 / hr after for their weekend shift. We can also assume the girls who can't dance well and can't hustle aren't the ones who land rappers and NBA stars so we won't count the marriage bonus.

What do bad strippers make at most clubs?

knightwish
02-17-2014, 09:40 PM
To be fair I take no issue with your comments about dancers getting cuts of bottle sales, VIP sales or anything of that sort but selling dances is still the primary stock in trade for the majority of dancers in the vast majority of clubs all over the country.

I agree it is the primary stock and trade for the majority of dancers because the majority of clubs are structured on that. The question was whether other structures are possible. There never was any dispute about which structure is far and away the most popular.

charlotte.
02-18-2014, 12:24 AM
you can have a huge sc without it being a nightclub. pretty much every semi decent sc in lv is massive and even tho they have a high energy party vibe it never becomes a nightclub. sapphire has a pool and is the biggest club in the us and every time I've worked there it feels like a sc. men dressed sharply getting bottles, drinks, and rooms

the rest of this thread makes no sense to me. I've worked in many major cities and none of them have a set up close to what has been said and stage money is never the primary source of income for girls.

and its really fucking insulting to say that the ultimate goal for us is to get married to some athlete.

shasta
02-18-2014, 01:58 AM
Oh god. This is one of those customers that tells girls how to do their job. I walk away after the first or second word out of theirs mouths.

yoda57us
02-18-2014, 02:16 AM
I agree it is the primary stock and trade for the majority of dancers because the majority of clubs are structured on that. The question was whether other structures are possible. There never was any dispute about which structure is far and away the most popular.
Exactly...

yoda57us
02-18-2014, 02:20 AM
Right, OK, and what does the average dancer make on a good weekend shift?


First off remember I never asserted this was better for dancer's average earn, just an example about headcount.

But for dancers KoD from what I've read seems much more uneven than most strip clubs. Of course the ultimate prize in terms of earn is to get introduced to a NFL, NBA, rapper... and get married. How do you want to average in the many dancers who pulled in something like 1/2 of $25m for 3 years work in terms of average shift not even counting all the other money during those 3 years?

Dropping down from those there are star dancers. Skrawberry who is a star and has a rich client base indicates she consistently makes more tan $3k a shift. Tip Drill (another x-star) says she makes $8k / week and $12k / wk for her birthday week. From what I understand we have good figures on Tip Drill's earning (audited and deposed oath) because she was seriously injured at the club and either sued or was going to. No one seems to dispute there is a small group of dancers making multiple hundreds of thousands off this KoD system. Let's assume that level is the absolute top, I'll say there are 10 earning what would definitely at the very high end for a New York stripper whose regularly getting pulled into VIP.

Make It Rain (the HBO show) and newspaper estimates are that below star but still successful dancers probably are making $150k / yr. And that's off some VIPs, alcohol, and big stage tips. Which ain't bad at all for a low milage club. So lets say in addition to the 10 stars at any given time there are 100 of these women who can work the system.

At the low end it is hard to know. There are frequent very large tippers. But the girls who can't really sell VIPs, and can't sell to the tables willing to buy expensive bottles mostly have to rely on stage tips. Stage tips at KoD come from people tossing money on everyone and selling time to middle class large tippers. And here I just can't estimate very well. I gotta figure average dancers does 2-3x times for a set what the dancer do in a traditional club for a set so say $60 for a stage set or around $60 / hr or so want me to take a WAG. I could see a conservative estimate that could be lower. By definition these girls aren't the top 100 dancers from the other group. And the stage dancers aren't high touch like in many of the clubs where girls get tipped on stage. So if it is worse let's say $40. Throw in $5/hr because even if they aren't selling VIPs often they are selling them some, even if they aren't selling $300 often they are selling them some.

Then you have to add to that some huge spikes from very big tippers. For an extreme example the WorldStarHipHop's sixth anniversary party they made it rain $250k on the dancers. If we assume there were at most 100 of them on the floor and likely less, that's not bad even for a week. Those kind of large tippers are going to influence the average. Finally while KoD discourages LDs they do still have them. I gotta figure the dancers who can't court the bigger tippers, can't sell VIPs and can't sell alcohol may find some people who want a low milage dance and make a few extra dollars an hour on LDs. So continuing to pile speculation on speculation let's say the next few hundred dancers are making $75 / hr before tipping the club and likely $40 / hr after for their weekend shift. We can also assume the girls who can't dance well and can't hustle aren't the ones who land rappers and NBA stars so we won't count the marriage bonus.

What do bad strippers make at most clubs?

lol, You could have just said "I don't know"

knightwish
02-18-2014, 05:33 AM
you can have a huge sc without it being a nightclub. pretty much every semi decent sc in lv is massive and even tho they have a high energy party vibe it never becomes a nightclub. sapphire has a pool and is the biggest club in the us and every time I've worked there it feels like a sc. men dressed sharply getting bottles, drinks, and rooms

I agree with you on both. If you read the original thread I talked about Vegas clubs as an example as well. This was another example.


the rest of this thread makes no sense to me. I've worked in many major cities and none of them have a set up close to what has been said and stage money is never the primary source of income for girls.

That's what a lot of dancers said in the original thread which is why I started to give examples of clubs where LDs were not a large percentage of the money. Another model BTW is DC clubs where the club acts as a launching pad for OTC and that's the primary income source.


and its really fucking insulting to say that the ultimate goal for us is to get married to some athlete.

I didn't say that. I didn't say anything remotely like that. How exactly do you think it helps the conversation to free associate with what I did say and then respond to stuff that's entirely different? The only "should" statement that I've made generally is that people shouldn't categorically deny that a model that's proven itself successful is possible. It is obviously possible because it exists and it does work. I don't know how you go from X is a factor that either needs to be deliberately included or excluded in an accounting to X is an activity that I think is someone's ultimate goal.

knightwish
02-18-2014, 05:39 AM
lol, You could have just said "I don't know"

Well yeah but a I did know enough to form some sort of estimate. But let's stop with one fact. Among physically suitable strippers in the Miami area they get their choice of dancers over the many more traditional clubs. So obviously the total package: very high income potential, low milage, glamour, very high customer to dancer ratio... is appealing to dancers. Similarly in my local market Onyx gets their choice of dancers among physically suitable dancers.

yoda57us
02-18-2014, 06:45 AM
and its really fucking insulting to say that the ultimate goal for us is to get married to some athlete.



I didn't say that. I didn't say anything remotely like that.


Of course the ultimate prize in terms of earn is to get introduced to a NFL, NBA, rapper... and get married.


We can also assume the girls who can't dance well and can't hustle aren't the ones who land rappers and NBA stars so we won't count the marriage bonus.


Um, yeah you did...not once but twice in the same post.

yoda57us
02-18-2014, 07:03 AM
Well yeah but a I did know enough to form some sort of estimate. But let's stop with one fact. Among physically suitable strippers in the Miami area they get their choice of dancers over the many more traditional clubs. So obviously the total package: very high income potential, low milage, glamour, very high customer to dancer ratio... is appealing to dancers. Similarly in my local market Onyx gets their choice of dancers among physically suitable dancers.

We could stop there if that was actually a "fact" but it's not. Some girls may audition and get hired but others will decide that the club is not their cup of tea. Making a statement that you can not back with any sort of proof does not make it a fact. I'm not denying that these clubs are very popular with their targeted customer base. That's the only part of your argument that I'm in agreement with.

michele11
02-18-2014, 07:08 AM
The one I posted images from in the other thread KoD Miami:

In terms of financials. I wish I had them, would make my argument a lot easier, but it is privately held. OTOH consider the tip out $50+$10/half-hour till midnight and $20/half-hour after midnight. So for example on weekend night for the 10pm-6am shift that with an average of 60 dancers over the course of shift they would pull in $20k in tip outs on any given weekend night. I don't know of any club that comes close to those numbers for base tip out. Then you add on that most weekend nights $40-50 admission. Even on weekdays I think the low for admission is $20. For special events they have had a table charge of $1k-$2k (i.e. what you have to pay to reserve a table for the night). $100 parking fee on premium nights Having a truckload of Moet (sells for $450 on premium nights) sell out. A giveaway 2 years back of a $2.4m car. Having a rapper get a cash delivery directly from Brinks from his posse (supposedly $1m in cash).

How much do they make? No clue. But there is no way that club isn't mind boggling successful.
This is an urban club which debunks your whole argument! They are completely different. The rappers come in and like to show off throwing dollar bills around and the urban club culture is completely different in that the girls know how to throw down on stage and black men go for this more than they do for the girlfriend experience or vip time. It's not the same so you can't compare say a high end club in the city were girls make zero on stage( yes in say NY ) your lucky if you walk with 5 dollars and it's a highly based vip environment. No comparision. The average club would never be like any club in Miami , clubs there are a whole nother breed.

knightwish
02-18-2014, 07:10 AM
Um, yeah you did...not once but twice in the same post.

No I didn't. Both times I said the marriage bonus financially was large. That's unavoidably true, a simple statement of fact.

What people want their marriage to be about love or money or trust or friendship... I said nothing about any of that. Let me show you the difference because I am going to say something about that topic. I actually think marrying for money is often a bad idea. The inequality in the marriage bleeds through forever and the neither person gets to have the trust and interplay that I think is vital for a successful marriage. I tend to lean towards trust and love being vastly more important than money for a successful and happy life. In this and in many other ways I don't think people should build their lives around money.

That doesn't change the fact that marrying for money works as a way to make money. And it doesn't change the fact that KoD's celebrity culture is a key component in analyzing how this club operates. And if you want to keep focusing on dancer income, impacts dancer income in a variety of ways.

knightwish
02-18-2014, 08:08 AM
This is an urban club which debunks your whole argument!

How does that debunk my whole argument? My argument is these clubs exist and are popular.


They are completely different. The rappers come in and like to show off throwing dollar bills around and the urban club culture is completely different in that the girls know how to throw down on stage and black men go for this more than they do for the girlfriend experience or vip time.

Exactly! We aren't disagreeing. The argument being made against me was this model doesn't exist. That there are no men that are willing to throw dollar bills around at the stage for girls who like to throw down. Once you agree such people exist, exist in large numbers and are able to support multiple clubs all over the country like this we aren't disagreeing. From there the question becomes what percentage of the men are they? Or what percentage of the potential strip club economy could this be if it developed: 5,10, 50, 95? The argument so far has been if it is a number higher than 0.

As far as this being black men only, I'm not sure that's true. There are a lot of variables at work in Las Vegas driving up strip club attendance and spending but one of them is far better than average stage shows. There is a thread about Vivid in NYC where we seeing something like KoD cross over to a more mixed environment. KoD itself has a club in Minneapolis which is aimed white where they've been somewhat successful in creating a dance centric, high beauty, good dancing (though nothing like Miami) low milage strip club environment where the focus is not on selling LDs. So it worked there. KoD Minneapolis has been able to bring back air-dances successfully where guys like a drinking experience in an environment where all around them there are hot naked girls dancing.


It's not the same so you can't compare say a high end club in the city were girls make zero on stage( yes in say NY ) your lucky if you walk with 5 dollars and it's a highly based vip environment. No comparision.

I agree with your description of the Manhattan strip club scene but I'm not sure what comparison you are seeing me make.


The average club would never be like any club in Miami , clubs there are a whole nother breed.

Heck that's true of most states. When I was in NOLA I was talking to the dancer about the NYC strip club scene and she couldn't believe you could have a large number of customers with 7 figure incomes, that a women could have regulars for VIP and it wouldn't be just a one off splurge that the guy often regrets when he sobers up. I have to admit, when I'm in NOLA a bit put off by the amount of drinking from both patrons and dancers in NOLA clubs. Most women find the idea of the Philadelphia dollar parade (girl walks around the bar after her dance getting felt up a bit for 30 seconds earning around $2 / patron) could be a huge percentage of earnings completely weird. The dollar parade works really well to get guys who are mainly "time wasters there to drink" to end up spending $30+ on dancers every time they are there. And it help sell lap dances. I don't know why more cities don't do it as it often makes Philly a good city to dance in. In that environment Onyx (http://www.onyxclubs.com/Philadelphia ) a rap style urban club has become one of the top 3 clubs in the city.

I don't know the Miami scene well at all, and I'm not the right demographic for urban hiphop clubs. Miami is obviously expanding with: Bella’s Cabaret, Vivid Live, Stiletto, Club 54 and Black Diamonds all opening in the last year when in most of the country the industry is contracting. So no question there are some major differences about Miami. But I don't think Miami come from a different planet, I do think that other city's club owners and managers can learn from Miami and while compensating for regional differences try and develop similar markets in their own cities using their own clubs.

This isn't something a dancer can individually do. They have to function within the economic model of their club. They can, only to a very limited extent adjust the customer base.

minnow
02-18-2014, 10:13 AM
[QUOTE=knightwish;2594014]Hi Vyanka. Well mostly this is a discussion of superclubs which I think is healthy for the industry though the way dancers raise monty shifts somewhat, and probably the type of dancer shifts. Minnow is bringing another thread in customer corner about what drove down attendance. I listed 8 reasons and in the long discussion about one of them (drop in quality of dancing) the subject of (primarily black) superclubs has come up because these clubs emphasize dancing quality / large stage tips and VIP dancing over selling LDs. So it is somewhat related. The latest response doesn't make any sense but as far as I can make out Minnow is I think arguing he doesn't like these clubs therefore they don't exist and aren't successful.[/QUOTE
************************************************** ******************************************

kw: Just to set the record straight
1) I am one of those (many) customers who don't go to stripclubs for the stage show, but for LD's/VIP/Other
2) I DO know that "these" clubs (less ld oriented ones) exist.
3) I got bored watching those dog chase their own tail vids, so I decided to re-enter this thread.

Fwiw, I happen to think that subject club in post will do well in Miami area, because it can draw from the type of demographic that will support it. How long it will do so is open to speculation, because I recall that a "Chipendales" opened up in the Ft Lauderdale area, moving into a property that was formerly occupied by a "clip joint". It seemed to be viable at first glance, but driving by there a few years later was no more Chipendales. I can think of several unique niche type of businesses that became defunct in a short period of time. Occupying a unique niche doesn't automatically confer success, much less be a positive transfer for other similar businesses to emulate.

Lastly, I take issue with your quote in post #54 in CC thread that states in part- "many white (emphasis mine) clubowners are doing themselves a disservice in creating an incentive structure for women to spend their time on stage selling LD's". If you can't (won't) comprehend the idea that a significant (even majority) of spending customers go for the LD's, and that dancers/owners have figured this out, then I'll just go back to watching the funny dog chase its own tail on YT.

yoda57us
02-18-2014, 11:22 AM
No I didn't. Both times I said the marriage bonus financially was large. That's unavoidably true, a simple statement of fact.

What people want their marriage to be about love or money or trust or friendship... I said nothing about any of that. Let me show you the difference because I am going to say something about that topic. I actually think marrying for money is often a bad idea. The inequality in the marriage bleeds through forever and the neither person gets to have the trust and interplay that I think is vital for a successful marriage. I tend to lean towards trust and love being vastly more important than money for a successful and happy life. In this and in many other ways I don't think people should build their lives around money.

That doesn't change the fact that marrying for money works as a way to make money. And it doesn't change the fact that KoD's celebrity culture is a key component in analyzing how this club operates. And if you want to keep focusing on dancer income, impacts dancer income in a variety of ways.

LOL, that was a lot of double talk even for you KW. The words are there in black and white. We read posts here, not minds.

michele11
02-18-2014, 12:20 PM
How does that debunk my whole argument? My argument is these clubs exist and are popular.



Exactly! We aren't disagreeing. The argument being made against me was this model doesn't exist. That there are no men that are willing to throw dollar bills around at the stage for girls who like to throw down. Once you agree such people exist, exist in large numbers and are able to support multiple clubs all over the country like this we aren't disagreeing. From there the question becomes what percentage of the men are they? Or what percentage of the potential strip club economy could this be if it developed: 5,10, 50, 95? The argument so far has been if it is a number higher than 0.

As far as this being black men only, I'm not sure that's true. There are a lot of variables at work in Las Vegas driving up strip club attendance and spending but one of them is far better than average stage shows. There is a thread about Vivid in NYC where we seeing something like KoD cross over to a more mixed environment. KoD itself has a club in Minneapolis which is aimed white where they've been somewhat successful in creating a dance centric, high beauty, good dancing (though nothing like Miami) low milage strip club environment where the focus is not on selling LDs. So it worked there. KoD Minneapolis has been able to bring back air-dances successfully where guys like a drinking experience in an environment where all around them there are hot naked girls dancing.



I agree with your description of the Manhattan strip club scene but I'm not sure what comparison you are seeing me make.



Heck that's true of most states. When I was in NOLA I was talking to the dancer about the NYC strip club scene and she couldn't believe you could have a large number of customers with 7 figure incomes, that a women could have regulars for VIP and it wouldn't be just a one off splurge that the guy often regrets when he sobers up. I have to admit, when I'm in NOLA a bit put off by the amount of drinking from both patrons and dancers in NOLA clubs. Most women find the idea of the Philadelphia dollar parade (girl walks around the bar after her dance getting felt up a bit for 30 seconds earning around $2 / patron) could be a huge percentage of earnings completely weird. The dollar parade works really well to get guys who are mainly "time wasters there to drink" to end up spending $30+ on dancers every time they are there. And it help sell lap dances. I don't know why more cities don't do it as it often makes Philly a good city to dance in. In that environment Onyx ( ) a rap style urban club has become one of the top 3 clubs in the city.

I don't know the Miami scene well at all, and I'm not the right demographic for urban hiphop clubs. Miami is obviously expanding with: Bella’s Cabaret, Vivid Live, Stiletto, Club 54 and Black Diamonds all opening in the last year when in most of the country the industry is contracting. So no question there are some major differences about Miami. But I don't think Miami come from a different planet, I do think that other city's club owners and managers can learn from Miami and while compensating for regional differences try and develop similar markets in their own cities using their own clubs.

This isn't something a dancer can individually do. They have to function within the economic model of their club. They can, only to a very limited extent adjust the customer base.
I am disagreeing that there are not enogh people like this to support clubs all over the country. I work all over the country, I'm the most seasoned traveler here and can pretty much gurantee I've worked in almost every top club in the country. I've worked in Vegas, Ny, Dallas, Reno, New Orleans, Chicago, St. Louis, Conn, clubs around Mass, clubs all over florida, Houston, Myrtle bch, other areas in the Carolinas, Denver, Indiana and I'm sure I'm forgetting areas. Also I had plenty of more high dollar nights in Nola. I sold 8000 in vip rooms in one night and this happened multiple times. I had way more consistent high dollar nights in Nola vs Ny. You must have talked to a meager earner or someone working at one of the lower end clubs there. My gf I travel with has worked at kod in Mineapolis and it is wayyyy different business model than the one in Miami. But you the strip club expert, you should try marketing your pwn version of strip and grow rich. Lol. The way you talk all these numbers and so seriously about something your not involved in lead me to believe maybe you were a manager or bouncer or something other than a customer who wandered over here from the blue site...

Djoser
02-19-2014, 03:35 AM
I've seen high rollers spend a shitload of money without getting dances. I'm not a millionaire, but I've spent a lot myself in my hangout many times and never gotten a dance. But it is pretty rare in a lot of clubs.

Actually I would love to get rid of lapdances and go back to table dances & no contact, because that's where way more than half the trouble with customers comes from--they are getting blueballs all night. Except of course the guys that bust a nut in their drawers right there in the club, had a guy do that tonight haha.

But yeah guys getting their dicks rubbed tend to grab for shit & try way more to get more & get aggressive. And also of course it doesn't help that in some areas, many or most of the girls are blowing the guys, etc.

Sadly it's way too late to go back to table dances.

I think if the superclub/fusion were done exactly in the right way, it could maybe be pulled off in a big partytown like Vegas, Miami, etc. BUT the only way it would ever work is if everyone entering the club were made aware that they were entering a stripclub, the dancers were not trying to fuck the boyfriends of the women there, lapdances were not free, tipping was expected, and so forth. That's a tall order with drunk tourists sometimes.

:D

I do know that in a lot of clubs in certain areas, the stage show IS crucial to the success of the night, though I am sure it is different in NYC and other clubs. Typically the bigger the club, the less important stage is and private rooms dance areas are correspondingly more so, but not always.

I have seen this untold thousands of times. Guys walk in the door, find out what the cover is, look at the stage and surrounding floor if the club lets them (most don't for reasons which will become apparent). If they can see the scene in the club, and they don't see enough guys there, they will leave! No shit.

You can have a bunch of very hot girls sitting around bored on a slow night who would probably have to sit there talking to the guys before the dances, way more than usual on a slamming night. Doesn't matter. If the guys don't see enough dick in the building, they will go somewhere else.

:O

Plus it helps if the club has higher hiring standards, if the emphasis is more on stage than some of the other clubs.

Vyanka
02-19-2014, 04:43 AM
Typical female customers are a HUGE pain in the ass. I've had 2 give me shit this year. Both incidents where they called me to the table. I hate approaching tables with women... drama and they control their man's money.

No, to a bunch of females rolling in to dance in the middle of the floor(tables removed to make it a dance floor), groping or standing around talking shit. It's a nightmare I experienced already.

Party crowd has no intentions to relax and spend money on entertainment (us). They just wanna party and look for ppl to take home. I'd like that out of where I work. Thanks

Vyanka
02-19-2014, 05:50 AM
This sums it up well. I have worked in a club with that mash-up nightclub theme and honestly I felt more like a go-go dancer if anything. :shrug: It was as if the strippers were glorified go-go dancers, instead of being covered they were topless, and instead of being paid to work the strippers had to pay. I may as well be a go-go dancer if I want to work in a night club setting.

Yes. The worst part is paying house fee/tip out to deal with that and walk out with nothing. I love how ppl think clubs pay us. We pay a shit load to work. If they only knew.

knightwish
02-19-2014, 08:01 AM
I am disagreeing that there are not enogh people like this to support clubs all over the country.

Well they are spreading all over the country rather quickly. There are over 100 cities in the United States with populations higher than 200k.


Also I had plenty of more high dollar nights in Nola. I sold 8000 in vip rooms in one night and this happened multiple times. I had way more consistent high dollar nights in Nola vs Ny. You must have talked to a meager earner or someone working at one of the lower end clubs there.

It wasn't a particularly low end club it was one of the well known Bourbon street clubs. Where I saw plenty of the young drunks and all the stripclub with door people outside hawking their clubs to passerbys. With the possible exception of Penthouse none of the clubs in NOLA are classy. It is comments like that regarding a meager earner that make me have some trouble with your version of events. The woman I was with was probably an above average earner. I talked to her partner who did 3 VIPs that night which was a good night for her to pull down about $1500/day and she was unquestionably in the clubs 15% top earners. The cocktail waitress made comments fully consistent with the idea that extended VIP didn't exist for their club. Since CFS was more or less expected in VIPs, the prices were comparable to Penthouse which to the best of my knowledge has the highest rollers among the bigger clubs.

I don't know how you do $8k in a NOLA VIP under any circumstances. The rates just aren't that high even at the highest end NOLA clubs. But I'll take your word for it. That being said for the overwhelming majority of dancers in NOLA, NOLA is a great example of a successful middle class strip club environment where a large number of clubs congregate yet still are able to maintain reasonable crowds by pulling people in. They dancers sell dances and some VIPS they pull down a good earn but they aren't making $8k / night which would translate into over $1m a year.

So I'm not buying that I should be ashamed for not seeing NOLA as an upperclass strip club environment like say Manhattan where you do hae a substantial number of dancers who can target a small percentage of high spenders. Incidentally that targeting the high end rather than serving the mass population is what you see at a place like KoD. You want to say you make insane money in NOLA fine, I can buy that. You want to say the money in NOLA at the top is anywhere like Manhattan, no darling I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.


The way you talk all these numbers and so seriously about something your not involved in lead me to believe maybe you were a manager or bouncer or something other than a customer who wandered over here from the blue site...

If there were experts in your industry how they would be talking: Lap dance sales are up 13.7% YoY in clubs with over 200 average patrons, while stage tipping is depressed 4.1%. This continues a trend for the last 7 years as you can see by this graph... Alcohol sales are up 6.3% with a 8.4% increase in average price per drink and 2.1% decrease in quantity of drinks ordered... The experts in telco finance are not the people who lay cable, nor the people who design phones, nor the people that work in individual stores and sell plans. The people who know the most about the Telco industry's financials are people who are quite often breathtakingly ignorant about the detailed mechanics of what telcos do. Doing the work doesn't give you much insight at all into aggregate data, and aggregate data what industry expertise requires. Your industry doesn't have good quality public aggregate data because everyone is trying to avoid paying taxes so it is a lot harder to come by.

My configured routers or working out where to lay fiber or helping to transfer towers doesn't teach me dick about telco financials. What I know about their financials I've learned from reading Wall Street industry analysts who are in the aggregate data business. Some jerkoff CFO who doesn't know what a router looks like does in fact know more about the industry's finances than some guy whose spent his life at the ground level making communication possible.

knightwish
02-19-2014, 09:21 AM
Party crowd has no intentions to relax and spend money on entertainment (us). They just wanna party and look for ppl to take home. I'd like that out of where I work. Thanks

As a kinda related anecdote, one of the clubs I'm kinda regular at is starting to develop a semi-large swinger contingent. Couple goes to the club, plays with the dancers, get worked up sometimes does a VIP and during often want to have sex with each. Big complaint there from the dancers regarding these couples is they have no clue what club rules are on patrons having sex with each other in VIP. Is this fine, can they get fired, are they allowed to object if it makes them uncomfortable, can they / should they leave the couple alone in VIP...? And they can't get clear answers from management.

The other analogy I think is interesting where this model is older is social BDSM parties and prodoms. Some of the parties are totally prodom friendly or are centered around prodoms. But if you exclude those there can be a weird dynamic between the women who are at these parties looking to hookup or do social play and the women who are scouting for clients even if they aren't looking to pay-for-play at the time. 40 something year old man might normally lavish attention and affection on 50 something year old social-dom but not if there is a 28 year old with much better skills and clothing trying to get his attention. BDSM play parties are a great place for a middle aged women to get dates, assuming she's into the scene. It would be interesting if in these dance social clubs as the men get older and more able to pay the social women looking to hookup begin to start viewing the strippers as unfair competition. That happens now but at least it doesn't happen in the club.

Vyanka
02-19-2014, 10:26 AM
As a kinda related anecdote, one of the clubs I'm kinda regular at is starting to develop a semi-large swinger contingent. Couple goes to the club, plays with the dancers, get worked up sometimes does a VIP and during often want to have sex with each. Big complaint there from the dancers regarding these couples is they have no clue what club rules are on patrons having sex with each other in VIP. Is this fine, can they get fired, are they allowed to object if it makes them uncomfortable, can they / should they leave the couple alone in VIP...? And they can't get clear answers from management.

Most strippers do not condone couples to fuck in vip and they absolutely CANNOT be left alone to fuck in vip either. It's not a hotel room. Go back home a fuck each other there.

You can't compare strip clubs with fetish parties. Two totally different things.