Log in

View Full Version : offering advice to dancers



Pages : 1 [2]

SweetJulia
05-19-2014, 06:10 AM
Let me further clarify my question then. Hypothetically, if someone on the other side were capable of offering applicable advice would you listen to it, or would you rather not?
Only if they were paying me to listen.

Hopper
05-19-2014, 06:18 AM
wanna preface this off saying nobody likes being told how to do their job but do you have custies who try to offer genuine advice to help w sales? And no I'm not talking about "extras" or more contact ect. I'm talking bout the actual sale whether its the approach, the close, the phrase, or w/e.

The reason I ask is one of my faves always asks after each dance "would you like another?" But if changed to "we should do another" or similar could do more and not to mention transitioning to an upsale. Kinda basic sales 101, harder to turn down a statement than a question.

What I did was playfully mock her and told her what and how I thought she should say in an non-critical way/tone. So do you have customers give genuine advice to help you out and how would they or you do it?

To me your "statement" approach seems obviously pushy and salesperson-like. Being in the business of fantasy, a dancer probably should avoid looking like she is a salesperson. If a dancer dressed in lingerie sitting close beside a customer and heavily flirting with him needs to use pressure then it's probably not going to happen anyway.

Aurora_Sunset
05-19-2014, 06:25 AM
Let me further clarify my question then. Hypothetically, if someone on the other side were capable of offering applicable advice would you listen to it, or would you rather not?

"My side of the fence" means fellow dancers who have actually worked in a SC, selling lapdances to all kinds of personalities and demographics. I read tons of useful advice here on SW - from other dancers - and apply or don't apply it accordingly if I think it fits with my personality and situation.

So, unless you've danced in a SC and sold lapdances to men, I would keep it to yourself. Sometimes, even fellow dancers give "advice" that isn't applicable to another girl or is just their opinion on what would make some other girl money, even though the girl in question already knows what works and doesn't for her through her own experience and trial and error. Customers tend to give advice that's either along those lines - maybe good advice in general or what they think would work, but doesn't apply to every girl, including the one they're talking to - all the way down to outright idiotic and obviously intended just to give customers more "bang for their buck." Or anything in between.

Even in the example you gave here, I specifically told you why I wouldn't be comfortable with a customer wanting me to not say anything between dances and just keep going until he said stop. I don't care how noble you know you are about your intentions to pay, I don't trust customers to keep track without some sort of verbal reminder from me. I will even stop every $100 in if they're doing a string of dances, and make them pay that chunk before continuing. You may have just read that and cringed, but I really don't care. That's my money I'm gambling with, and I'm not going to screw around, trusting some stranger's morals in the sense that he will fairly pay a large sum of money at the end of it all. Customers get into it, they lose track of just how much they're spending, and then they have buyer's remorse and try to wiggle out of it. You personally may not be like that, but you can't expect dancers to know that. So, even if I could technically "keep the fantasy going" and sell more dances if I didn't implement that policy, the risk isn't worth it when you've seen and experienced time and time again how sleazy people can treat the "lowly strippers" in a SC. (And especially if you have managers who specifically tell you they won't back you up if you're stupid enough to get stiffed by a customer. There's another thing customers wouldn't know - how, exactly, management will, or will not, back us up if certain things happen.)

You think it would help her sell more dances and that this is great advice - I'm telling you that most dancers would instinctively not trust that sort of interaction. In an ideal world, where all customers were trustworthy and all dancers were trustworthy and everyone could trust everyone to count properly and pay the right amount, your advice would be good. But IRL, that's not how a good chunk of people behave in strip clubs and why it's not always a "logical" sales decision. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say "my side of the fence" advice, borne of experience working in a club, vs. the small percentage of things customers see and think about the club when forming advice.

yoda57us
05-19-2014, 07:08 AM
Let me further clarify my question then. Hypothetically, if someone on the other side were capable of offering applicable advice would you listen to it, or would you rather not?

You are not clarifying anything here BA. All you are doing is rephrasing and, at this point, nitpicking. It's been made pretty clear that you can give dancers as much free advice in the club as you like as long as you are paying them to listen to you. Seriously, that should be enough for you since, from the beginning, this thread has been about the satisfaction you get from trying to "help". You are coming dangerously close to putting yourself in the same category as every other guy in the club who want's to "save" dancers be it with advice, money, job offers, drugs, sex or whatever. Don't be that guy.

azaleanola
05-19-2014, 07:37 AM
Let me further clarify my question then. Hypothetically, if someone on the other side were capable of offering applicable advice would you listen to it, or would you rather not?

Depends on which bank he uses. If I'm confident that a renewal will go through, why not listen to him?

starlily
05-19-2014, 12:24 PM
Hypothetically, if someone on the other side were capable of offering applicable advice would you listen to it, or would you rather not?

Hypothetical questions are only useful when you're talking about something that might happen under certain circumstances. An "if" implies a "could happen." This is not one of those situations. There is no "if someone could offer useful advice" because it's never going to happen. Now you're thinking "yeah but if it could happen-" No, we don't want to go there because you'll just use it as a way to convince yourself you could have useful advice under certain circumstances. You can't.

You've kind of set this question up for your ego, not for us. If we say "No" you'll think to yourself, "Well, my advice can still be good, they're just not willing to listen! That's their loss." But if we say "Yes," you'll say to yourself, "So they do want to hear it, I'll just have to be extra sure it's something useful to them." In both cases you've got it set up so that your advice can still be useful. But it really can't.

I don't know how anyone can put it more simply. You can't offer us any advice that would actually be useful. Ever. "But surely there's something-" No. Maybe you don't want to believe that and you're going to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that you're the one guy who DOES offer good advice no matter what anyone here says, but that's just the truth. We've told you how it is, and now you can either swallow it or keep finding ways to convince yourself your advice is somehow different and special, but there's absolutely no way we can make it any clearer.

If you want to help a dancer out you can still be VERY helpful by tipping generously, and she will appreciate it instead of finding it useless at best. But, you already tip well, so yay.

Hopper
05-19-2014, 04:26 PM
Hypothetical questions are only useful when you're talking about something that might happen under certain circumstances. An "if" implies a "could happen." This is not one of those situations. There is no "if someone could offer useful advice" because it's never going to happen. Now you're thinking "yeah but if it could happen-" No, we don't want to go there because you'll just use it as a way to convince yourself you could have useful advice under certain circumstances. You can't.

You've kind of set this question up for your ego, not for us. If we say "No" you'll think to yourself, "Well, my advice can still be good, they're just not willing to listen! That's their loss." But if we say "Yes," you'll say to yourself, "So they do want to hear it, I'll just have to be extra sure it's something useful to them." In both cases you've got it set up so that your advice can still be useful. But it really can't.

I don't know how anyone can put it more simply. You can't offer us any advice that would actually be useful. Ever. "But surely there's something-" No. Maybe you don't want to believe that and you're going to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that you're the one guy who DOES offer good advice no matter what anyone here says, but that's just the truth. We've told you how it is, and now you can either swallow it or keep finding ways to convince yourself your advice is somehow different and special, but there's absolutely no way we can make it any clearer.

If you want to help a dancer out you can still be VERY helpful by tipping generously, and she will appreciate it instead of finding it useless at best. But, you already tip well, so yay.

Well there is one situation where a customer might give helpful advice: a new dancer. Also maybe a dancer who just isn't as smart as the average and needs a clue.

Dancers have often started threads in CC asking customers their opinion on what technique works better or surveying what customer like. So although experienced dancers probably don't want, need or appreciate getting lectured about how to do their job by customers, there are probably times when we could offer something useful. We are, after all, customers.

That said, I can't recall ever offering advice to dancers. Either I liked them and was only thinking about their bodies or I didn't like them and I wanted them to go away. Many times, however, I have thought that dancers were going about their job the wrong way with regard to getting sales. We have all seen obvious cases of that.

LexiConn
05-19-2014, 04:37 PM
There is a house regular who I'm pretty sure is a long-time strip club aficionado and he actually *does* give helpful tips, not advice, but "hey you should pull the chair out for him/her" when I'm on stage beckoning someone to come to the rail. I think he's honestly repeating things he's seen his old faves do that have worked, rather than ideas he just pulls out of his ass.

Nobody else could pull it off like he does, either.

starlily
05-19-2014, 04:44 PM
Well there is one situation where a customer might give helpful advice: a new dancer. Also maybe a dancer who just isn't as smart as the average and needs a clue.

That's why getting advice is so annoying. It's like they think they're smarter than us by default.


Dancers have often started threads in CC asking customers their opinion on what technique works better or surveying what customer like. So although experienced dancers probably don't want, need or appreciate getting lectured about how to do their job by customers, there are probably times when we could offer something useful. We are, after all, customers.

Yes, the key difference being that they asked. And even the dancers that want to ask customers anything are in the minority I think, for the same reasons Aurora_Sunset talked about. OP is talking about magnanimously doling out unsolicited advice. He's asking if there's ever a situation where he could initiate giving us advice without us finding it useless or annoying. There is no such situation.

MarvelGirl
05-19-2014, 04:56 PM
That's why getting advice is so annoying. It's like they think they're smarter than us by default.



Yeah exactly. Derp, we're all just so damn stupid. It's like obviously I don't approach every customer because I'm a dummy and don't know how to do my job. It couldn't possibly because that guy tried to stick his fingers inside me, that other creeper was waxing poetic earlier about how much he'd love to fuck young children, that asshole over there stiffed me once, the guy in the corner is seriously fucked up on drugs and I'm afraid he might become violent and that dude over there smells strongly of shit.

Nope, can't be any of those reasons. I is just an dummy cuz the customer is always right.

Ugh.

Hopper
05-19-2014, 05:38 PM
That's why getting advice is so annoying. It's like they think they're smarter than us by default.

I was thinking if it was pretty obvious that the dancer isn't experienced or just isn't smart about her job. I don't mean trying to be a sales guru either, I mean just trying to help out with some obvious clues.


Yes, the key difference being that they asked. And even the dancers that want to ask customers anything are in the minority I think, for the same reasons Aurora_Sunset talked about. OP is talking about magnanimously doling out unsolicited advice. He's asking if there's ever a situation where he could initiate giving us advice without us finding it useless or annoying. There is no such situation.

The only unsolicited advice I've given a dancer is "Move that thing baby I'm paying you for this".

Well there was this one dancer who sat with me for two hours just chatting. She was the hottest girl in the club and it was full. I was not the best dressed customer there either. So I could not help asking her why, when she could easily be spending all that time in VIP. She said she just didn't feel like working.

audrey_k
05-19-2014, 11:13 PM
Dancers have often started threads in CC asking customers their opinion on what technique works better or surveying what customer like. So although experienced dancers probably don't want, need or appreciate getting lectured about how to do their job by customers, there are probably times when we could offer something useful. We are, after all, customers.

That said, I can't recall ever offering advice to dancers. Either I liked them and was only thinking about their bodies or I didn't like them and I wanted them to go away. Many times, however, I have thought that dancers were going about their job the wrong way with regard to getting sales. We have all seen obvious cases of that.

No, this that is a totally different situation. If I have a question and I ask someone, they're not giving me advice, they're giving me feedback to my question. I posted a thread a few months back asking customers how they feel about dancers wearing glitter. All you guys said you hate glitter it's terrible and evil and you run away at the sight of it because it might as well be the ebola virus. Well, I changed my hair up so I've been experimenting with different make up, but I just make way more money when I wear glitter on my eyes. But I still appreciate the advice that customers gave here BECAUSE I asked for it. And I did tone down the glitter and have noticed an improvement in money. I also sometimes read through customer threads here to see what you guys say you like and don't like, but once again, I'm LOOKING for feedback. Banished avatar is talking about giving unsolicited advice that no one is asking for and that is just annoying.

Radius
05-20-2014, 09:38 AM
I never really offered dancers general advice (even if I had great advice, which this thread has convinced me I don't, I selfishly like it when she's more available for me), but I do give advice that's centered on my favorite subject -- me. E.g., "I love when you wear that outfit", "Damn you smell good!" "You know how, when I tell you I'll be there at 7, you make sure you're alone so you can grab me right away? I realize you don't have to do that, but I love it that you do", "Remember when you did that move in the back, with the wiggle and the twirly thing? Well if you did that more often, I'd be putty in your hands. Or not putty. Ha ha! Not putty! Get it? Get it?" Etc.

yoda57us
05-20-2014, 10:12 AM
^ The point of your entire post is that she already knew what to do to get your money. It' nice to compliment her and tell her it works but, seriously, she already knew...

I compliment my faves all the time. That's not really advice since they have already done something totally NOT at my behest to earn that compliment.

Do we see where this keeps going folks? The ladies know what to do. While I agree that they may occasionally ask us what we like that is not nearly the same as us telling them what they should do.

IHearVoices
05-20-2014, 10:30 AM
The only type of advice I offer is that which comes via cash flow. I tell her what I like by tipping more. I tell her what I don't like by tipping less. This is especially true in places where there's no set "per song" price and she's simply dancing for tips. As one can imagine, at those types of places the girls get the message very quickly.

yoda57us
05-20-2014, 11:40 AM
This is especially true in places where there's no set "per song" price and she's simply dancing for tips.

Clubs like this exist? Hmmm....I've been to clubs where the dancers would set their own prices but I've never been to a club where a girl did private dances without knowing how much she was going to get paid for them.

Radius
05-20-2014, 11:48 AM
^ The point of your entire post is that she already knew what to do to get your money. It' nice to compliment her and tell her it works but, seriously, she already knew...

I compliment my faves all the time. That's not really advice since they have already done something totally NOT at my behest to earn that compliment.

To me this is a bit of semantics. Yes, it's a compliment, and sometimes that's all it is, but often a compliment is just how I phrase my advice for how to delight me as a customer, and the girls absolutely change their behavior based on it -- so call it what you want, I tell her what I liked, and she does more of it. And there are plenty of times I'll say, "After you did X, if you'd also done Y, that would have lit me up" (that is, she hadn't ever done it before).

REgardless of the semantics -- to me, I'm clearly offering advice for what I personally like, couched as compliments, but whatever -- I certainly agree it's clear about the general case of customer advice and the wisdom of giving it. Actually, even in the case of what works for me, on some level some of the strippers understand that better than I do :)

IHearVoices
05-20-2014, 02:32 PM
Clubs like this exist? Hmmm....I've been to clubs where the dancers would set their own prices but I've never been to a club where a girl did private dances without knowing how much she was going to get paid for them.

I've gone to a few places like this. Now that I think about it, all of them were divey black clubs. Some in Tampa, some in Atlanta, some in Miami. I'm sure there's an expectation as to how much one is supposed to tip, but there's no "official" price. To that end, I've seen girls tell guys "hey, you need to tip more" and I've also seen them stop dancing if they didn't feel they were being tipped properly (sometimes with the warning, sometimes not). In a way, you could say they set their own prices.

Radius
05-20-2014, 04:33 PM
I've seen that a couple of times in REALLY divey bikini bars

Aggro Crag
05-20-2014, 07:00 PM
Typically, I hate it when people dismiss advice (or opinions, or ideas, or whatever) based on who is giving the advice (or opinion, or idea). Good advice is good advice regardless of WHO is saying it.

That said...

I work in an industry where I interact with the public a lot. It's a job that all of us have some experience with, so anyone - who is so inclined - could consider themselves as an "expert."

As you could imagine, many of my customers routinely offer me advice on how to do my job. Now, I've been doing my job for well over a decade now. To that end, I can safely say I've performed my job more times than my customers. I've thought about my job much more than my customers. I've fucked up my job more times, been successful more time...etc.etc.

99% of the time, the advice my customer offers is utter BS. It literally hurts my brain to think about their "advice". BUT once in a great while a customer will come up with something novel, and I will be better off for it.

Here's the thing. It's very hard for me to find those little hidden nuggets of advice when the rest of it makes my ears bleed.

So I tune it out...all of it.

To the OP: Just because you have advice doesn't mean it's good. And if you have no experience in the area you're dispensing your advice, chances are it's not.

amberlly
05-20-2014, 07:09 PM
Its hard to take in good advice on the main floor - too much noise and distractions.

Take your students to VIP and teach away.

charlie61
05-20-2014, 09:08 PM
When a customer gives advice, they're basically revealing that they're no longer enraptured by you; they've fallen out of the fantasy you're trying to weave for them. So I find it to be a complete and utter turn-off for the interaction and (in-club) relationship.

jekka
05-21-2014, 08:02 AM
Why are you so intent on giving advice to strippers? Is this a new business model that you are trying out? If so, it's been done.

What is in it for you? Are you attempting to create value for yourself in the strip club outside of spending money? You can't really care about her. Do you like it when you see a girl doing what you suggested?

There is usually some ulterior motive behind giving unsolicited advice to girls in a strip club:
a. Diverts attention away from doing dances, getting paid for her time
b. Likes feeling of being in control of a woman, fatherly guidance type or mini pimp
c. Wants to gain their trust and confidence, to become more like a friend than a customer
d. Likes to feel smart

None of this makes you a bad guy, just making it clear that the advice giving is more for your benefit than hers.

SweetJulia
05-21-2014, 10:22 AM
Ok, in retrospect, when I worked at dives I did have a bunch of customers tell me to go somewhere nicer. I did, eventually, but just like I told them, it wasn't going to happen until my body, stage presence, and hustle were perfect. When I'd tell them that, they said to just learn at the nicer club. They didn't get that I'd be losing out on money at the fancier places by looking unrefined. I did eventually go to nicer places and bank, so it wasn't awful advice, just premature advice, I guess?

kirakonstantin
05-21-2014, 12:27 PM
When customers try to give me advice... I usually listen and then provide a rebuttal. Because, you know... I work there. I know the regulars, I know who's there for who/ what. Also, my mom was the VP of a large corporation and she was in sales most of my life. She doesn't give me advice on how to do my job anymore, because it became very obvious that selling widgets is a LOT different than selling VIP dances. I guarantee that my mom is better at sales than most SC customers. If she can't give good advice, you really have no clue.

I had a customer give me pointers on giving a good table dance... while he was paying for said dance. I took his very good advice, because I was relatively new, they were good idea and using them kept him buying dances. He's now a semi regular of mine and his tips have really paid off... with certain customers. They'd piss other customers off, but I was grateful to have more in my arsenal.

Other than that, just enjoy the show and save the advice for people who give a fuck.

banished avatar
05-21-2014, 07:56 PM
snip
Fair enough. Valid points that I didn't take into consideration. And no, I would not cringe, I support you doing what's best for yourself. As long as your kind and friendly when you do it which I know you would be. Now if I were a regular I might start to get a bit annoyed. More due to the lack of trust than the action itself.


You are coming dangerously close to putting yourself in the same category as every other guy in the club who want's to "save" dancers be it with advice, money, job offers, drugs, sex or whatever. Don't be that guy.

Your'e 100 percent right about that. As much as I logically tell myself there's the part of me that wants otherwise. A few weeks ago I was at the bar and my favorite was on a satellite surrounded by a bunch of drunks hassling her obviously annoyed by it. I know it happens all the time, but right or wrong I didn't want it happening when I was there so I intervened. Not by being a macho man and telling them to get lost but by walking straight to her, talking to her the entire set, acting as a distraction, and tipping accordingly.

So maybe I am that guy, or a least a part of me is. For me, I can't see myself being detached and it being strictly business. I think the day that I am is the day that I leave.


When a customer gives advice, they're basically revealing that they're no longer enraptured by you; they've fallen out of the fantasy you're trying to weave for them. So I find it to be a complete and utter turn-off for the interaction and (in-club) relationship.

Totally off topic, but one of my friends recently said something similar to me almost word for word. The biggest difference is she's totally asexual. Haha


Why are you so intent on giving advice to strippers? Is this a new business model that you are trying out? If so, it's been done.

What is in it for you? Are you attempting to create value for yourself in the strip club outside of spending money? You can't really care about her. Do you like it when you see a girl doing what you suggested?

There is usually some ulterior motive behind giving unsolicited advice to girls in a strip club:
a. Diverts attention away from doing dances, getting paid for her time
b. Likes feeling of being in control of a woman, fatherly guidance type or mini pimp
c. Wants to gain their trust and confidence, to become more like a friend than a customer
d. Likes to feel smart

None of this makes you a bad guy, just making it clear that the advice giving is more for your benefit than hers.

Some combination of the above. My benefit and her benefit(supposed) aren't mutually exclusive. And no I don't do to try to add value, if anything I'll do when I have value. Which you could say is after spending vs before.

charlie61
05-21-2014, 08:43 PM
Totally off topic, but one of my friends recently said something similar to me almost word for word. The biggest difference is she's totally asexual. Haha


Interesting...I am also asexual. What an odd coincidence!

Almost Jaded
05-25-2014, 05:33 PM
As a customer, I try to keep it light. As a regular that all the girls know, I sometimes dispense advice - sales tips and training type stuff - frequently. Some girls get upset, so I stop. Others blow it off. Some listen and take it to heart. The ones on the latter group ALWAYS come back within a couple days to tell me they're making more money.

Selling widgets is different than selling lapdances - but the psychology of the sale is the same everywhere, all the time, period. Lots of dancers have it DOWN, lots of them are naturals. But little things like how you present the VIP options and pricing when a customer asks is the difference between getting a couple $20 dances and getting a 30 minute VIP. And when I see a good dancer failing to make money regularly, I'll offer something like that if she'll listen.

People who take advice as criticism are in for a long and difficult life.

rickdugan
05-25-2014, 05:46 PM
Selling widgets is different than selling lapdances - but the psychology of the sale is the same everywhere, all the time, period.

Idk AJ, it seems like you're first saying that selling widgets is different than selling lapdances, but then saying that it really isn't. Perhaps I'm missing some of the nuance in what you said, but that's how it reads to me.

Hmm though...I wonder if I could increase my chances of selling my company's professional services by wearing a thong and nibbling on a guy's ear? Maybe he would be more likely to buy my services if I "accidentally" showed him a little nipple as I sat with him? Some things to think about... :thinking:

yoda57us
05-25-2014, 06:03 PM
People who take advice as criticism are in for a long and difficult life.


Good point but people who dispense advice as criticism are as well. That's what most of this thread is about.

Almost Jaded
05-25-2014, 06:16 PM
@Rick - ROFLMAO - try it. Who knows..?

When you try to tell a stripper that "sales is sales", they get mad. They'll tell you that as a man, you can't know what it's like. They'll tell you that selling yourself and a fantasy is different than selling a car or a cell phone. And they're right.

Except when they aren't.

Lots of what they do is VERY different. I wouldn't dare try to tell them how to do their JOB. But things like the takeaway, perceived value, value-added sales, the assumptive close... These things DO NOT CHANGE EVER, NO MATTER WHAT. They are the same for car sales and a drug dealer, a televangilist or a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman, a realtor or a Radio Shack employee. The psychology of the sale, the mind games behind the close, are always the same. For this reason, a stripper can learn just as much from Zig's classic Steps of the Sale as anyone else and make more money.

A perfect example, I've been trying to tell this to MM since we started dating. She - and the other girls we know - always rolled their eyes and told me to quit telling them how to do their jobs. I would drop it, because the first few times I didn't, it turned into an argument and the same old "stripping is different, it's not like other sales" bklah blah. I left it alone. A few months ago, she says out of the blue "I don't know why I'm struggling at the new club, and I think I should listen to you about sales". Surprised the HELL out of me. So I said - well, give me an example of where you need help. "when a guy asks me what the VIP prices are, how should I handle that?" I role=played it with her, and got her to say to me what she says to guys. I immediately understood why she was having such a hard time selling VIP rooms - and I told her how to change it. Not how to do her job, just how to say the same thing differently in order to turn a question into a buying scenario. The very next night, she sold 3 VIP's. Her average closing rate for VIP rooms has tripled since that conversation.

The psychology of the sale doesn't change. Stripping may be different, but closing the deal is closing the deal.

Does that help?

@Yoda - excellent point. Presentation and interpretation matter a lot on both sides, as does intent. Separating advice from criticism is the job of the recipient however - willing or not. Unwanted advice is never welcome, anymore than unwanted criticism. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing!

audrey_k
05-25-2014, 06:38 PM
Yeah, but that's not what this thread is about, AJ. She clearly wanted advice, or to vent at the least. If you hadn't given her some kind of advice it would have been a pretty awkward convo! The OP is talking about just blurting out random advice during a lap dance. I don't think the general consensus is that customers have NOTHING valid to say when it comes to advice, but if I wanted advice I wouldn't just ask any customer. I would ask a customer who goes to strip clubs routinely, has been going for years, has money to spend, and isn't looking for extras, because that's the kind of customer I want. And it's also the type of customer who actually knows what they're talking about. Some random guy I'm dancing for blurting out advice is, 99% of the time, completely un-useful. The kind of customer I just described isn't going to offer random advice.

And I have to really disagree with you that they're the same... I mean, one of the biggest reasons I manage to close and keep guys in VIP is body language. Something as simple as touching someone's thigh, rubbing their back, taking their arm and wrapping it around my shoulders/stomach (that's my best VIP move because it's a total gf/wife bf/husband move) can make the difference between a no and a yes or a half hour and two hours. The best advice I've ever gotten from another stripper was not to let a second of VIP go by without some kind of physical contact. If a salesperson did that to me in a store I would be very disturbed and probably run away.

yoda57us
05-25-2014, 06:40 PM
Unwanted advice is never welcome, anymore than unwanted criticism. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing!

I have the pleasure of having absolutely no background or interest in sales so, aside from the one instance I mentioned back at the start of this thread, I've never had to worry about how my advice was received by the person I was offering it to. That being said, no matter how sincere the attempt, the advice giver really has very little control over how the recipient (willing or unwilling) takes the advice. Advice vs. criticism? Same thing or not is only relevant in the mind of the person you are offering it to at the time.

kirakonstantin
05-25-2014, 07:25 PM
Selling dances is different. I'm not going to sell a car by straddling a customer and going into detail about what I wish they could do to me in the back of it. I'm also not going to introduce myself by putting their face between my G cups. There are some bits that are similar, but selling dances is done is such a different way that it's just totally different.

Hopper
05-26-2014, 06:20 AM
Selling dances is different. I'm not going to sell a car by straddling a customer and going into detail about what I wish they could do to me in the back of it. I'm also not going to introduce myself by putting their face between my G cups. There are some bits that are similar, but selling dances is done is such a different way that it's just totally different.

What you are describing is giving the customer an experience of the merchandise. You can do that with cars too - e.g. test driving. Aside from this aspects of sales, doesn't the way you talk with the customer also make a difference? When you put the customers face between your G-cups, the way you talk when you do it should make a difference. Otherwise he's just staring at a pair of G-cups. The car dealer doesn't just throw the customer the keys as he walks in and tell him see you in ten minutes.

kirakonstantin
05-26-2014, 12:17 PM
Not at all, Hopper. The point of shoving my boobs in their face is to catch them off guard, give them a little shock and get their heart rate slightly elevated. Selling lapdances is less sales and more high speed seduction. Speed dating on steriods.

Because a dancer isn't just the salesperson... she's also the product. And we have no idea why a customer decides to walk through the door or what he/she is interested in. It's like a car lot where people sometimes go to buy a car, but sometimes show up to hang out with the cars or have a meeting on the sales floor. And, the cars get up and explain their features, rather than a salesperson doing it. And, you can't normally take the cars off the lot either. There's also the fact that a lot of the customers already have a car and want to drive something else, often completely different than their daily driver.

Most salespeople have several options, so if the customer isnt interested in a Chevy Cobalt, because they want something sporty, the salesperson can easily shift them over to a Camaro. I only have one option for them. If they like small boobs, or Asian girls, I either have the option to try to convince them that they DO want what I have or move on to a different, possibly more receptive customer.

Also, the car has to be interested in the driver. If he wants to drive faster then the car wants to go, is planning a road trip, rather than a spin around the lot or he's a rough driver, maybe the car just isn't into it. There have been quite a few instances where I've declined a dance, stopped a dance in progress or ignored a customer that I've danced for previously, because of inappropriate behavior or forceful demands for it.

There's also a much shorter timeframe involved. The last time I bought a car, I spent several hours finding the car I wanted, hammering out the terms and making the deal. ITC, I spend an average of 9 minutes hustling for a dance. High pressure, emotional sales doesn't even begin to describe it.

Selling dances is seriously nothing like selling widgets. I've sold widgets before. It's a very different animal.

yoda57us
05-26-2014, 12:44 PM
Not at all, Hopper. The point of shoving my boobs in their face is to catch them off guard, give them a little shock and get their heart rate slightly elevated. Selling lapdances is less sales and more high speed seduction. Speed dating on steriods.

Exactly...

No dancer has ever "sold" me a dance. The only way they "sell" me on a CR is to make the individual dances so good that I want to buy in bulk. Fact is, any dancer who plops her butt down and starts the conversation off by running options by me is pretty much doomed to getting no money from me. When I go to a club I've generally already made up my mind if I'm buying dances or not. If my faves are there they are getting my LD budget and there is nothing any other dancer is going to be able to say or do to me that will change that. If my faves are not there I'm going to find a girl that interests me and buy some dances....or leave and go someplace else. I'm just fine with going home with a full wallet. It's a lap dance, not food or water or blood pressure medication. I want it but I don't NEED it to survive. Any girl who has a chance to get my money is going to do it with a smile from the stage, a seductive wink as she walks by my table....and a great ass certainly doesn't hurt! If it's gong to happen it's going to happen quickly. High speed seduction is exactly what it is.

kirakonstantin
05-26-2014, 01:10 PM
Exactly, Yoda. You have your pattern and it's my job to read that, to suss you out through conversation, body language and verbal/ physical reactions. Other customers have different patterns, different wants/ needs and to be frank, some walk in the door not really knowing why they came in. Every customer has a different trigger and I use a different technique to pull it... or determine if we're going to be compatible enough to bother trying.

A pick up artist would probably have some decent advice, if they weren't so busy trying in vain to get me to leave the club with them.

Hopper
05-26-2014, 08:36 PM
Not at all, Hopper. The point of shoving my boobs in their face is to catch them off guard, give them a little shock and get their heart rate slightly elevated. Selling lapdances is less sales and more high speed seduction. Speed dating on steriods.

Seduction is sales. Dating is sales. Salesmen use the same kinds of psychological tricks, just not with boobs, because in other industries, the product is not boobs.


Because a dancer isn't just the salesperson... she's also the product. And we have no idea why a customer decides to walk through the door or what he/she is interested in. It's like a car lot where people sometimes go to buy a car, but sometimes show up to hang out with the cars or have a meeting on the sales floor. And, the cars get up and explain their features, rather than a salesperson doing it. And, you can't normally take the cars off the lot either. There's also the fact that a lot of the customers already have a car and want to drive something else, often completely different than their daily driver.

Selling your own body doesn't make it not a sale. Of course you have to explain your own features if you are the also product. Cars need someone else to do it because they can't talk.

Your product is not yourself, it's your dances.

Whether people go there to just drink or not, it's still your salesroom, just like any other kind. The drinks are there to bring customers in and provide the right setting for you to interact with them in, i.e for you to sell your particular service, as well as to make money for the club.

Can you take a dancer out of the club? You mean as an escort? Well only after you pay her, so yes you can take the car home if you buy it. And who ever buys from only one dancer at a strip club?


Most salespeople have several options, so if the customer isnt interested in a Chevy Cobalt, because they want something sporty, the salesperson can easily shift them over to a Camaro. I only have one option for them. If they like small boobs, or Asian girls, I either have the option to try to convince them that they DO want what I have or move on to a different, possibly more receptive customer.

You have one product, but you can still tailor it for different options. Your product is not really your body, it's dances. You can change how you do them.


Also, the car has to be interested in the driver. If he wants to drive faster then the car wants to go, is planning a road trip, rather than a spin around the lot or he's a rough driver, maybe the car just isn't into it. There have been quite a few instances where I've declined a dance, stopped a dance in progress or ignored a customer that I've danced for previously, because of inappropriate behavior or forceful demands for it.

Well there are some things no car will do and some things no car dealer will do.


There's also a much shorter timeframe involved. The last time I bought a car, I spent several hours finding the car I wanted, hammering out the terms and making the deal. ITC, I spend an average of 9 minutes hustling for a dance. High pressure, emotional sales doesn't even begin to describe it.

And then there's McDonald's, average three minutes.

It takes you nine minutes to shove your boobs in a customer's face? No, you spend some of that time talking to him as well.

Also, your sales techniques don't begin when you approach the customer, they include all the preparation. Marketing a car begins with design of the car. It doesn't begin in the showroom. The product is manufactured in a way that will sell it.


Selling dances is seriously nothing like selling widgets. I've sold widgets before. It's a very different animal.

Yes they are different.


Exactly...

No dancer has ever "sold" me a dance. The only way they "sell" me on a CR is to make the individual dances so good that I want to buy in bulk. Fact is, any dancer who plops her butt down and starts the conversation off by running options by me is pretty much doomed to getting no money from me. When I go to a club I've generally already made up my mind if I'm buying dances or not. If my faves are there they are getting my LD budget and there is nothing any other dancer is going to be able to say or do to me that will change that. If my faves are not there I'm going to find a girl that interests me and buy some dances....or leave and go someplace else. I'm just fine with going home with a full wallet. It's a lap dance, not food or water or blood pressure medication. I want it but I don't NEED it to survive. Any girl who has a chance to get my money is going to do it with a smile from the stage, a seductive wink as she walks by my table....and a great ass certainly doesn't hurt! If it's gong to happen it's going to happen quickly. High speed seduction is exactly what it is.

The dancer's physical attributes and the way she dances are what do it for me too. But they are the product for sale. The way a dancer interacts with me also makes a big difference. And in the case of dancers, the sales is part of the dance, i.e. there is interaction during the dance which determines whether or not I'll buy more.

Not long ago I bought a dance from a gorgeous dancer who danced great on stage. Her interaction with me during the hustle was not so great - I guess she thought it didn't have to be considering how attractive she was, though she wasn't the only attractive dancer in the room out of the twenty others. The dance itself was pretty lame as well as the interaction.

Like Kirakonstantin said, her business is seduction. To me, that equates to salesmanship. Some dancers have the boobs and the ass and all the sex appeal of a road accident.


Exactly, Yoda. You have your pattern and it's my job to read that, to suss you out through conversation, body language and verbal/ physical reactions. Other customers have different patterns, different wants/ needs and to be frank, some walk in the door not really knowing why they came in. Every customer has a different trigger and I use a different technique to pull it... or determine if we're going to be compatible enough to bother trying.

A pick up artist would probably have some decent advice, if they weren't so busy trying in vain to get me to leave the club with them.

Again, you are describing sales.

kirakonstantin
05-26-2014, 09:32 PM
Hopper, you're making a lot of assumptions and, given the nature of them, it's very clear that you're only considering your own narrow perspective on things, as a customer.

Many customers are only there for one dancer or a select few favorites. Nobody else is ever going to sell them a dance, because they know exactly what they want before they get there.

Then there are the test drivers. They'll get one table dance from each girl they find attractive, pick the one they want and take her to VIP.

There are the guys who come in with a budget, pick the dancer they want from the stage show and drop it all on her.

There are groups who come in because one guy wants to buy dances, while the rest drink a little and dont even bother to watch the stage.

In short, it takes all kinds and, in the SC, we certainly get them. All of them. And we have to figure out in a matter of seconds how to approach that customer, all while trying to stay away from the rapey guys, the drink spikers and other varieties of asshole.

And, contrary to your opinion, an overwhelming majority of thr customers that I dance for would lose interest immediately if we didn't click personality wise. Its not just about the physical act of dancing. It's about both an emotional and physical connection for them.

For some, It really is about a fantasy and if their fantasy girl is a petite Asian girl, a 6 foot tall blonde Swede or a Hispanic girl isn't going to fulfill it.

For you and for your own personal needs, it may very well be like selling a car. But, you have to understand that you alone are not representative of every customer that walks into every SC ever. Every customer is a unique individual with unique needs. Some want to feel like they're romancing the dancer. Others want to feel like they're picking up a girl in a bar and making out in the car. Others just want boobs in their face.

Im not denying that sales is a part of what a dancer does. We're part saleswomen, part psychologist, part seductress, part athlete, part psychic... you get the picture, or at least I'd hope so by now.

Someone in widget sales does part of what we do. But I highly doubt that they can read strip club customers well enough to give a seasoned dancer any useful advice on how to do it. Because we look for very different things. We have to consider pitfalls that are unique to our profession.

It takes a rare breed of woman who can even do this job, much less be successful at it. For someone who has never even tried to do anything similar, much less have success with it, to insist that they're more of an authority than those who do it and succeed at it... it reeks of condescension.

Almost Jaded
05-26-2014, 09:36 PM
And this conversation is exactly why I stopped trying to have that conversation, LMAO. Dancers will always expound on why it's different, no matter how you try to explain that while much of the JOB and the APPROACH are different - the psychology of teh sale DOES NOT CHANGE. Until a dancer WANTS to hear it, they won't, and nobody can say anything, ever, to change that, lol.

Hopper
05-26-2014, 09:54 PM
And this conversation is exactly why I stopped trying to have that conversation, LMAO. Dancers will always expound on why it's different, no matter how you try to explain that while much of the JOB and the APPROACH are different - the psychology of teh sale DOES NOT CHANGE. Until a dancer WANTS to hear it, they won't, and nobody can say anything, ever, to change that, lol.

That I do see.

ushar85
05-26-2014, 10:00 PM
...it's very clear that you're only considering your own narrow perspective on things....

Something I've found the majority of this board is really good at. XD

kirakonstantin
05-26-2014, 10:04 PM
And this conversation is exactly why I stopped trying to have that conversation, LMAO. Dancers will always expound on why it's different, no matter how you try to explain that while much of the JOB and the APPROACH are different - the psychology of teh sale DOES NOT CHANGE. Until a dancer WANTS to hear it, they won't, and nobody can say anything, ever, to change that, lol.

And customers will always assume that they know more than dancers because theyre older, smarter, think they make more money, have a penis etc. Or they have a white knight complex.

Just sit back and enjoy the show already.

yoda57us
05-26-2014, 10:17 PM
and......