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Kellydancer
05-27-2014, 04:48 PM
It's the secret many don't want to admit. To you it might make no sense but to me it does. If parents all loved their kids we wouldn't have abused kids or kids in foster care. The reality is only healthy, financially stable people should have kids but that is not the reality.

lynn2009
05-27-2014, 05:02 PM
The reality is only healthy, financially stable people should have kids but that is not the reality.

My parents are a drain on society.

charlie61
05-27-2014, 09:15 PM
well to say " i don't love you unless you grow up to cure cancer or become rich and famous" that isn't love to begin with. as a woman who is actually a mother, i can tell you that it is NOT normal or ok to HATE your child. if you do, you are either a raging sociopath or severely emotionally damaged yourself, and should not be bringing an innocent human life into this world and fucking it up with your issues. i've read a lot of crazy shit online, but since this probably tops it all i'm gonna bow out

I completely agree. I think some parents resent (i.e. "hate") the loss of free time / money / selfishness that comes with having a child...but it is not common for parents to hate their children. That's completely ridiculous.

ANYWAY. Back to the OP.

Jay12
05-28-2014, 12:00 AM
The reality is only healthy, financially stable people should have kids but that is not the reality.

Financially stable=/=wealthy.

My parents (they divorced when I was eight) were lower middle class/borderline poor, but were super responsible with us. They provided for us, and still love is. They were in their TEENS when I was born. They worked hard and stayed in college: it took them longer, but by the time I was in my teens they were settled in their careers (but not together as a couple).

My aunt (dad's little sister) is a wealthy professional who waited "until the time was right", "until she was settled down" and all that shit...and she's an irresponsible and neglectful parent. She's buried in debt, too (has an insane house with pool, expensive SUV, wears nothing but labels, etc.).

Money is not the only ingredient to successfully raise kids.

Kellydancer
05-28-2014, 12:09 AM
Financially stable doesn't mean wealthy, but rather can afford kids. There are many who can afford kids but aren't wealthy. Basically if they can support the kids without assistance from others (parents, welfare)then they are financially stable. Having kids when one can't afford them is not wise.

Trem
05-28-2014, 06:10 AM
I doubt many parents actually hate their children, but hating having kids and hating the kid itself are two very different things.

Optimist
05-28-2014, 11:31 AM
^ ummm, no, i can't imagine anybody saying it because i can't imagine how any parent could possibly feel that way, not because i think its oh-so-naughty and taboo. where are you getting that people without kids are actually happier? because i've been without a kid, and with a kid, and i am far and away MUCH happier with one. but like i said, its all about what "happiness" is to you i suppose.. its just a ridiculous assumption. its like me saying that people without kids are somehow lonely miserable losers. its just not true! do you have any children may i ask?

Check this out :
Abandoned Babies:

Unfortunately, the problem of new mothers abandoning their babies, typically in unsafe places where they may not be found, is not uncommon. Although the exact numbers are not known, a survey of the HHS Administration for Children and Families found that 65 babies were abandoned in public places in 1991 and 105 in 1998. They also found that 8 of those infants were found dead in 1991, which increased to 33 in 1998.
In response to these abandonment cases and a group of 13 abandoned babies in Houston in 1999, Texas lawmakers adopted a safe haven law so that mothers could leave a baby in a safe place without having to worry that they would be prosecuted.

Nationwide Safe Haven Laws:

Now nationwide, all 50 states have safe haven laws, with Alaska and Nebraska enacting their own safe haven laws in 2008. You should look at your own state's Safe Haven Law for more details, as they do vary from state to state.

Safe Haven Law Basics:

In general, Safe Haven Laws allow a parent to anonymously leave an unwanted newborn baby in a safe place, such as a hospital, emergency medical services, police station, or fire station, and not have to worry about getting in trouble. The baby will then be given to the state's child welfare department.
Do Safe Haven Laws Work?:

Unfortunately, so far, they don't seem to be having much of an impact on babies being abandoned in unsafe places. That may be because many Safe Haven Laws are not very well publicized and few people, especially the very young mothers who typically abandon babies, seem to know about them.

Nebraska's Safe Haven Law:

Nebraska's safe haven has received the most publicity out of all safe haven programs, however, it is not because of all of the babies they were saving. Nebraska's safe haven law did not specify an age limit for which children could be dropped off, which resulted in 35 children being left for safe haven protection, most kids over age 10. Nebraska's safe haven law has since been revised to place an age limitation to protect only newborns, so that children over age 30 days old can not be dropped off.

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/newbornsandbabies/p/06_safe_haven.htm

According to NCANDS whose latest statistics are for 2005 an estimated 3.3 million referrals of child abuse or neglect were received by public social service or CPS agencies. Of these referrals, 899,000 children were confirmed to be victims of abuse or neglect (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2007). That means about 12 out of every 1,000 children up to age 18 in the United States were found to be victims of maltreatment in 2005 (USDHHS, 2007).

Approximately 10 percent of the children in this country have a disability or chronic illness. The incidence of abuse and neglect among these children is twice as high as it is among average children (Child Welfare Information Gateway, 2006).

Child victims who were reported with disabilities accounted for almost 8 percent of all victims of child abuse and neglect in the 39 states that reported this type of data (USDHHS, 2007). For NCANDS’ purposes, children with the following disabilities were considered disabled: mental retardation, emotional disturbances, visual impairment, learning disabilities, physical disabilities, behavioral problems or other medical problems. It is believed that while children with disabilities are maltreated more frequently, these cases are less likely to be reported for several reasons. Most CPS agencies’ data collection on maltreatment cases does not involve questions regarding a child’s disability. Children with disabilities are less likely to be believed or viewed as credible when they attempt to report.

Who Are the Perpetrators?

Perpetrators of child abuse or neglect are most often the child’s own parents. According to NCANDS, in 2005, 79.4 percent of perpetrators were parents and 6.8 percent were other relatives.....Approximately 40 percent of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone; another 18.3 percent were maltreated by their fathers acting alone; 17.3 percent were abused by both parents (USDHHS, 2007).
Children Die Every Day From Abuse or Neglect

In 2005, an estimated 1,460 children died as a result of abuse or neglect (USDHHS, 2007). The majority almost 76.6 percent of these children were 3 years of age or younger. Most child fatalities (76.6 percent) happened at the hands of parents (USDHHS, 2007). Not all fatalities were the result of the physical trauma of abuse. Neglect accounted for almost half (32.2 percent) of all fatality cases.


http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-abuse-and-neglect-statistics.html

That's just a snapshot of the reality that some parents secretly regret parenthood. Judging them as sick doesn't change the fact that they are honestly of a different point of view. They are no more sick than the odd woman willing to simulate sex for pay. Different but hardly sick or rare.

Kellydancer
05-28-2014, 11:35 AM
That's creepy. I can't help but wonder if these cases happen more in states where abortion is restricted.

simone87
05-28-2014, 11:50 AM
^ that's what i'm thinking too, or very religious regions where a woman would be shamed, thrown out, disowned, stoned for having a baby out of wedlock.i can totally imagine being in a position where you know you can't have a baby and it could set you back a whole lot..although i would hope they would just give it up for adoption, instead of just abandoning it.
i woudn't call somebody sick for knowing they cannot have a baby, or being scared and getting an abortion/giving it up at birth, i was referring to people who keep and then HATE their own children.

Kellydancer
05-28-2014, 12:17 PM
That's possible as well. I would imagine most of these are young girls forced into a pregnancy. Very tragic.

countcrabula
05-28-2014, 01:14 PM
this has definitely been a interesting topic of discussion. for right now, unless i get bit by the "baby bug," my answer is a resounding NO. :) do any of you have stories of being pressured into having children? what did you do about it?

Kellydancer
05-28-2014, 01:20 PM
A couple of men I dated tried to pressure me but I knew I didn't want any lasting connection to them. I don't remember this but my mom tells me I told her when I was a kid I was never having kids so she assumed I never would. I do get pressure to date dads though but that is something I avoid and another topic. I like kids but not sure I would make a good mom because I am so independent.

Aniela
05-28-2014, 01:21 PM
^^^^ again, PMing you on this.

thisunrest
06-06-2014, 11:56 AM
Hi guys,

I'm in this situation where I've met the guy of my dreams. He's absolutely wonderful. We've been together for about a year and half, and have gone through some serious stuff together. The thing is, he's pretty sure he wants kids, and I'm, well... not so sure. I feel like if I'm going to commit and marry anyone, he would most likely be the guy (and he has already stated that this is a likely possibility), but I know it would be really bad to do that if we end up disagreeing on something this important, especially since we're getting older (almost in our thirties) and babymaking time seems to be best before 35 (which still seems too soon for me!) for health reasons.

I'm afraid to have kids. This world is crazy. What if they grow up to be assholes, or criminals? What if they die before me? The thought of having a small human completely, utterly depend on my judgement is horrifying, and I'm astonished how many people just... dive right into it.

Has anyone else been in this situation? If you were unsure about having children, and did, what changed your mind, and how long did it take to change it? Do any of you regret having/NOT having them? Why or why not? I guess I'm just looking for other people's opinions/experiences so I can reflect on them, and hopefully come up with a decision.


I just mutually ended the relationship with the man I consider my love-story because he wants kids and I don't. I love them but the responsibility doesn't appeal to me. Like you, I feel overwhelmed and not fully interested in raising a helpless infant into healthy, stable adulthood and if you aren't 100% into that! I wouldn't.

We tried to make it work and it hurt to lose him and he'll always be the one that got away. You are absolutely not alone,our experiences sound like twins.

Believe it or not, there are many,many women who hate motherhood 90% of the time while still loving their kids. And then there are lots of them that HATE their lives and themselves and resent their husbands because the husband wanted children, so the woman "had one for him." It's never a good idea to do that.

My advice, research the childfree lifestyle and see if it resonates to you. Thechildfreelife.com has a sub forum for people still deciding whether to have kids or not, it might help you to check it out.

hugs and best wishes.

thisunrest
06-06-2014, 12:21 PM
better how? not trying to be an asshole, but as a mother i really can't imagine anybody actually saying that. yeah, you would be able to take more vacations, have more money, go out to parties, and bring home any guy you wanted, but... i guess its where your priorities are. now i can definitely imagine saying " i wish i had my kid at a different time/with a different man/when i knew how to parent better/when i had more money/ etc. i've definitely felt those things, but the thing is..its never going to be a perfect time, because life isn't perfect. i actually feel its the opposite, being childless is much more revered. can't even tell you how many people i've had talking down to me& feeling sorry for me because i was a young mother.i don't feel bad for myself one bit though

Better for THEM. It's not about money and freedom ( okay, a small percent of it can be) but having kids changes everything and some women's lives would be better if they hadn't.

One of my dearest friends lost her health, lost her career, nearly lost her life several times during her high-risk pregnancy and though she does LOVE her son, she's not happier having him than she was with just one child. And she considered all of this while deciding whether or not to keep the pregnancy.

That in no way reflects on her character nor on her toddler's value as a little person. It's just facts.

thisunrest
06-06-2014, 12:28 PM
Changing, sure. But IMO child-rearing is more often seen as the mom's job. I know there are single fathers and dads who love to help out, it's just in my own experience the woman always does the grunt work and sometimes even the men that WANTED the children leave, let alone those that were ambivalent.

simone87
06-06-2014, 12:28 PM
^ well then it was obviously worth it to her if she decided to keep him?? there are huge sacrifices you have to make to be a mom..i understand that just as much as any other mother. its about what's most important to you in your life.

thisunrest
06-06-2014, 12:44 PM
Well, I don't know if she thinks it's worth it right now. That's something IMO you don't know until you get there,so to speak. She does love him, she does right by him, and he's a very difficult child but she doesn't dislike him either.

All I can go by is what I see and what we talk about between ourselves. I live with her so I see more than bits and pieces. She truly IS less happy than she was before.

thisunrest
06-06-2014, 12:45 PM
Well, I don't know if she thinks it's worth it right now. That's something IMO you don't know until you get there,so to speak. She does love him, she does right by him, and he's a very difficult child but she doesn't dislike him either.

All I can go by is what I see and what we talk about between ourselves. I live with her so I see more than bits and pieces. She truly IS less happy than she was before.

Kellydancer
06-06-2014, 01:05 PM
Changing, sure. But IMO child-rearing is more often seen as the mom's job. I know there are single fathers and dads who love to help out, it's just in my own experience the woman always does the grunt work and sometimes even the men that WANTED the children leave, let alone those that were ambivalent.

Agreed. One of the reasons I was ambivalent about having kids was this. I know many men who wanted babies but once they had them left the day to day care to the wife. Many others left the family.

simone87
06-06-2014, 02:07 PM
it is considered "women's work" and that's fucked up. when do you ever hear of "paternity leave" or somebody asking the guy when he's coming back after the baby? its a cross-cultural bullshit point of view too.
the united states is the only developed country to have such pitiful "maternity leave" and where the most women die from chilbirth and complications, or are rendered very ill. a lot of places can will fire a woman for getting pregnant or not hire her despite what the law says. we really need to step it up here.
you also need to have lots of support and help to be a mom. you need to be able to take a break and have some "me" time or you'll go crazy.

SaintSlutface
06-06-2014, 02:10 PM
I come from the "no children" camp. I like dogs and a million extra dollars to travel and enjoy life. There are just so many people in this world. If you're an American the generations being born now are predicted to live shorter lives than their parents because of the food and lifestyle. The education system is crap. Health care in this country is abysmal.
Yeah yeah, kids are a blessing and all, but if you really want one I suggest adoption. Maybe adopt a toddler (because they never get adopted and spend their whole lives in the foster care system).

rickdugan
06-06-2014, 08:28 PM
this has definitely been a interesting topic of discussion. for right now, unless i get bit by the "baby bug," my answer is a resounding NO. :) do any of you have stories of being pressured into having children? what did you do about it?

I'm not sure I would look at it this way. Rather, some women choose to have children because it is very important to their SOs and they do not want to lose them. Having said that, IMHO it is better to lose an SO than to have a child that you are neither able nor willing to care for. There are too many kids in bad situations as it is - the world doesn't need more of them.

It is most definitely a big deal for a man to ask a woman to have his child. I have 3 children and my wife works her ass off, often thanklessly as the children are too young to appreciate everything she does for them. We also have far less freedom, and most especially her, with children. They own you for a long time and to be a good mother requires a fuckload of patience, energy and time. And, whether right or wrong, the mother always bears the brunt of it. I know very few instances, in the circles in which we travel, where the mothers do not bear primary responsibility for day-to-day child care. I won't get into the right and wrong of it, but it almost always seems to work out this way.

Also keep in mind, though, that it is also a big deal to ask a man never to have kids of his own. When I was 30, I broke up with a girl, who I loved a great deal, over this issue. She was adamant that she did not want any more children (she had 2 from a previous marriage). I could not imagine going through life childless, dying without children to continue my bloodline and mourning me, not having my own family around me as I grew older, etc. I also could not bear the thought of never having a son, or even just the chance to try for one, to carry my name and legacy forward.

I don't agree with the posters who said you should just wing it and see what happens. You've already been with him for quite some time and neither of you are getting any younger. If you are sure that you do not want kids, then you need to sit down with him and have a candid conversation about how you feel. If this is a deal-breaker for him, then you may need to think about whether you share the same long-term hopes and dreams and whether you are really a good fit for each other.

In any event, good luck!

zerpa
06-06-2014, 10:34 PM
Late to the party, it happens!

I think I have a unique perspective on this, since I have no kids of my own but I worked as an L&D nurse and certified doula(birth coach) for several years, I have way too much experience with kids and parents, and I currently live with kids that I love with all my heart. Not mine. I'm a damnfool.

You know, there's a lot I could say about choosing to have kids, choosing to not have kids. I think ultimately, though, you will need to stop listening to us and listen to yourself. I really, really value the time I've spent with these kids that I live with, who I would give my life for, who are frequently assholes and crazy, and who have really shown me what day to day parenting friggin' looks like sometimes. I don't have any of the (amazing!) hormones that make parenting so much easier in some ways, but I'll tell you what my mom told me: taking care of a kid is what makes you love it. She had some really bad birth experiences, no bonding with her babies whatsoever, but she always said that taking care of the kid makes you love it.

Obviously that's not always true. Some people are abusive- they're terrible people, terrible parents. And that's something I struggled with when I was figuring out if I was safe to have kids, too, because we have anger issues in my family, and I really didn't want to be a babyshaker. But you can know if you'll be an abuser. How do you treat the people you care about? Can you practice dealing with your emotions in healthy ways? And, are you up for learning new skills? Because parenting is largely a skill. It's not fucking magic. It doesn't just come to you in the night like the Blue Fucking Fairy. (Sorry, I'm a little bitter about how we talk about parenting!)

You don't have to be perfect to be a good parent. You don't have to be sure. You can be really, really unsure and still turn in a perfectly good performance. Also, I can guarantee you that your children will, at some point, be assholes. No, let me be clearer. For large swathes of their and your lives, they will be assholes. Cute, dumb, sly, selfish assholes. They will be baby assholes. They will do things like shit on you the instant they have a clean butt and diaper, or better, shit on your boss in a nice dress. They will be child assholes. They will push other children down and then laugh, and make you ashamed of the person you're attempting to raise. They will be teenage assholes. They will try to cheat on tests and ridicule their grandmother and do deeply, deeply embarrassing things that are not just public but viral on the internet. You will still love them, but maybe not like them a lot, and possibly yell more than you knew you physically could. And that is all totally normal, it's the name of the game, and you will probably look back and think they were totally worth it, even if you still roll your eyes. Most of the parents I know think their kids are some of the coolest people they know, and that's probably because most of the parents I know waited till they were in their 30s to have kids.

I'm not trying to convince you that you should do anything one way or the other. I'm just trying to give you a different view of parenthood, from someone who has been paying a whole hell of a lot of attention. You didn't talk about anything except things being uncertain and life being hard, so I'm gonna be upfront with you here: kids change literally nothing about either of those factors. Things are uncertain. Life is hard. Yeah, babies and toddlers make life really shitty(literally), but it's just for a few years. (I'm toilet training a toddler myself at the moment. So much poop! Why can't he respect the Superman underoos?) What if the kids are horrible and you suck at parenting? Well, I dunno. Could be. Probably not. What if the kids are awesome, and you miss it? What if it's somewhere in the middle, like everything else in the world? And what if you just took some time to enjoy your relationship, to think about it, to get more life experience with kids yourself, and keep your ears open?

I didn't expect to love these kids I live with. I just wanted to have a reasonable relationship with them. It was really the worst possible situation for me, and them too- I was insanely depressed, in fact I was hospitalized for psychosis while living with them, and they were super traumatized because their mom basically ditched them for all of last year- no visits, no calls, no letters, no nothing... despite living 10 minutes away. When I moved in, every time the door opened, they would run to it screaming "Mommy, Mommy!" But despite being just normal little kids, that is, loud and annoying and crazy, and me being in bed all day every day, and irritable when I was around, we really bonded- and I'm so fortunate. We watch movies over and over together. I take them to school/daycare in the morning, and we have Important Conversations in the car, or listen to crucial music together. We laugh and joke and talk and yell and discipline and fuss and it is awesome. I love them, even when they drive me nuts. I smooth things over between them and their mom, or sweet talk their dad into things for them. I hold them to high standards and show them a different way of living. And they love me, more than I could ever deserve. They never got confused about who I was, but they opened up their hearts, and that was really special.

For me, I would love to have kids of my own. I'm a chump for loving another woman's children. But I'm not ready for a relationship, and I'm in no place to take care of myself financially, let alone babies. I was worried, but I realized I had to let it go: I can't control this. I just have to be happy with what I have, and move upward in my life. There will be no place in my life where I won't be loving these kids, though!

Anyway, this is way longer than I intended it to be, because the gist of what I had to say is this: I know you want to be able to be able to make decisions here with some level of foresight. But that's just not possible. It's scary, but it's also okay, because kids are not the end of the world. They're just not. It might feel like it on the drive home from the hospital, but then you'll get home and you'll find that all you need to do is feed the squirt and find something to sleep to on Netflix. Not having kids is also not the end of the world. I'm really happy that you're happy with dude, but if you're not a kid person, that is fine. Go! Be free! No need for second-guessing! Be really sad about him but also happy that you didn't subvert your priorities and live a falsehood for him! <3 Good luck, beautiful. I can't judge your parenting potential from your postings on a forum, but from one overthinker to another, ya got this, kid.

charlie61
06-08-2014, 12:13 PM
What if the kids are awesome, and you miss it? What if it's somewhere in the middle, like everything else in the world? And what if you just took some time to enjoy your relationship, to think about it, to get more life experience with kids yourself, and keep your ears open?


One of the longer posts I've ever seen on SW, but well worth reading! Quoted for truth.