View Full Version : UCSB shooting- thoughts?
Almost Jaded
06-03-2014, 12:39 AM
^what he said.
The internet is still evolving, and much as this forum provides a place for sex workers to vent and discuss and support one another - a HUGE percentage of the internet is a collection of people who can't socialize effectively. Is it a surprise that disenfranchised assholes like these create forums and groups too? There are forums where racists gather. There are forums and sites for anything and everything. Misogyny is a problem. It needs to be worked on. It probably does' deserve the attention that this case is drawing to it.
LibraSnake
06-03-2014, 03:01 PM
What happened here is a bizarre case of what you get when you combine misogyny with severe mental illness. Honestly though, what frightens me more is the other guys who post on that bodybuilding forum, PUAs, MRAs, etc. Guys who DON'T have mental problems, who interact with women on a daily basis, and STILL see them as objects to be used and thrown away, objects that they 'deserve' to own... nothing more than living "real dolls" with holes to fuck, whose only purpose in life is to act as their arm candy, give them blowjobs and make them sandwiches and clean their house. This is literally what a LOT of guys on the internet apparently believe. Like browsing "The Red Pill" just fucking blows my mind for instance. I just don't get it.
Sometimes I feel cursed to be born a woman. :(
domina
06-03-2014, 04:13 PM
Sometimes I feel cursed to be born a woman. :(
Don't say that! You are blessed as you are! Show them how it's done right!
Djoser
06-03-2014, 05:29 PM
Frankly, a lot of them believe that women are just sex toys for their enjoyment. You can not deny that fact!
Agreed 100%
And we can all agree that this sick fuck--and any other sick fuck who kills women because they aren't throwing themselves at him, or whatever other bizarre reasons--deserves to die.
However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree.
Within a week's time I have had to sit & watch three close female friends crying and in anguish because the dipshits they threw themselves at, who blatantly treat women like dogshit, dumped or otherwise mistreated them. At least one of them regularly beats the woman in question--and she is crying because he dumped her again??? And it ain't just this week. For the last fifteen years in particular (since I started working the clubs), I have seen this happen innumerable times.
Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
simone87
06-03-2014, 07:19 PM
^ i think its a real problem that a lot of females have, i'll definitely give you that. but i wouldn't say it excuses the men any.
Djoser
06-03-2014, 07:49 PM
Absolutely not.
I abhor abusive men & have gotten into some nasty situations stopping it, or dealing with it after the fact.
Almost Jaded
06-03-2014, 11:26 PM
I'm going to catch some flak for this, but...
GADDAMN IT DJ THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT.
Just had to get that out.
sierra.
06-03-2014, 11:57 PM
Agreed 100%
And we can all agree that this sick fuck--and any other sick fuck who kills women because they aren't throwing themselves at him, or whatever other bizarre reasons--deserves to die.
However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree.
Within a week's time I have had to sit & watch three close female friends crying and in anguish because the dipshits they threw themselves at, who blatantly treat women like dogshit, dumped or otherwise mistreated them. At least one of them regularly beats the woman in question--and she is crying because he dumped her again??? And it ain't just this week. For the last fifteen years in particular (since I started working the clubs), I have seen this happen innumerable times.
Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!
Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.
Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?
Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!
Kellydancer
06-03-2014, 11:57 PM
I have known many women (sadly most were dancers or in the sex industry)with those kinds of shitty men. One dancer I worked with had a husband who beat her if she made less than $200 a night while he sat on his ass. There have been posts here (especially in Ladies Only or Life Support)from women with either cheating or abusive men (or both). In my opinion the only women who stick with these guys have a few screws loose. I am not excusing these assholes but women giving them attention is not smart.
Djoser
06-04-2014, 09:35 AM
Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!
Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.
Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?
Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!
Yeah if you keep picking guys who beat shit out of you, take all your money, fuck your friends...it's not anything at all wrong with you, it's all on the men, including all the guys you never even considered because they were actually polite to you instead of smacking you around.
Don't even think about giving me that kind of shit. I've put my ass on the line to defend women from abusive men many times, and I'll do it again.
I am saying it's a two way street because it is. Blaming men for all the evil that goes on between men & women is no more productive than the idiotic men blaming the women for everything, which is equally tiresome and delusional.
Aniela
06-04-2014, 09:42 AM
Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!
Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.
Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?
Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!
I am mostly in agreement w/ this ^^^^, but I think part of what Djoser was getting at is, PUAs & their ilk continue to behave in these ways bc, for whatever reason(s), their behaviour gets results.
I have commented in other threads (& I am probably not the only one who has) on how sad it is that women tend to be fed from birth the idea that it is basically better to be in SM relationship than no relationship. Did I ever put up w/ being hit, myself -- fk no -- but for yrs I put up w/ a lot of crap in relationships bc I did not understand that I did actually deserve better. There were a number of factors that influenced this, but those are for another thread & plenty of strong :cheers: Point is, in a way, I WAS rewarding the bad behaviour I received by sticking around.
I think this is what Djoser was getting at, not saying that women(or men for that matter) in this situation inherently deserve to be there.
Djoser
06-04-2014, 09:58 AM
Thanks, Aniela. You hit the nail on the head.
NO ONE deserves to be abused, for whatever reason.
The PUA stuff persists only because it works on the dumb ones--the same ones who think that The Rules will actually work, and bring them a good man instead of a little fuckin doggie boy lol.
Mating rituals for idiots of both sexes, and there are untold millions of them.
sierra.
06-04-2014, 11:02 AM
Yeah if you keep picking guys who beat shit out of you, take all your money, fuck your friends...it's not anything at all wrong with you, it's all on the men, including all the guys you never even considered because they were actually polite to you instead of smacking you around.
Don't even think about giving me that kind of shit. I've put my ass on the line to defend women from abusive men many times, and I'll do it again.
I am saying it's a two way street because it is. Blaming men for all the evil that goes on between men & women is no more productive than the idiotic men blaming the women for everything, which is equally tiresome and delusional.
In your first sentence, you really sarcastically low-key blame me for the abusive committed against me (interesting how part of my problem was overlooking nice guys!), and in the second you act offended I would DARE call you out on the bullshit you posted earlier, because you care about abuse victims so much you've put yourself on the line for them. I'm sure this is true, but things you are posting here are not in defense of abuse victims or women, they are downright victim-blaming and misogynistic.
It is not a two-way street. When men commit violence towards women MEN are to blame.
Thanks, Aniela. You hit the nail on the head.
NO ONE deserves to be abused, for whatever reason.
The PUA stuff persists only because it works on the dumb ones--the same ones who think that The Rules will actually work, and bring them a good man instead of a little fuckin doggie boy lol.
Mating rituals for idiots of both sexes, and there are untold millions of them.
No one deserves to be abused, but if you stay with an abuser (even though the nature of abuse makes it hard to escape) then you are to blame for men's misogynistic behavior?
Men shouldn't manipulate women, but if they succeed, she is just one of the "dumb ones"?
Jesus fucking christ.
Men should not abuse women FULL STOP
Men should not manipulate women FULL STOP
Stop shifting the blame onto women, because it is not our fault. And besides that, it's a flawed argument. Do you think if no woman stayed after the first punch, abusers would stop abusing? No, I doubt that would make any difference at all. There is a lot that has to change, and it starts with men in more ways than one.
However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree
...
Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
"We can't blame this violence on the toxic ways men view "the dispensation of sexual favors by women", even though the killer himself cited these same toxic views. We need to blame women, for the way they dispense their sexual favors."
WTF????????
As long as you are posting garbage like that I'm sorry but yes, I will think about giving you that kind of shit.
Aniela
06-04-2014, 11:32 AM
Sierra., you are correct in saying that if no woman stayed after the first punch, the abuse will still continue toward sm1. Again, I am in agreement on what you're saying -- I just disagree w/ you going to town on Djoser here bc there is another point that he is making -- he is talking specifically abt the ppl who, for whatever reason, stay in an abusive relationship.
We are not saying 'fk you stupid bitch you deserve to get the shit beaten out of you if you stay w/ that mofo!' Quite the opposite. We are pointing to a cause-effect where, if you stay w/ sm1 who you know treats you like shit, you can't expect anything else from them.
What he pointed out, & what I agree w/ bc I have seen it myself in sm of my own relationships, is that a person who stays in that situation is simply doing themselves no favours by staying. It is hard as fk to break out of that, I have been there myself, but the fact alone that I stayed was feeding the monster, so to speak. I did not deserve that treatment, but staying would result in nothing but more of the same, bc my abusers took my continued presence as a reinforcement that their behaviour 'couldn't possibly be THAT bad!'. It's the equivalent of :banghead: bc your own (in)action is part of what is allowing the abuse to continue.
Djoser
06-04-2014, 10:10 PM
...it's a flawed argument. Do you think if no woman stayed after the first punch, abusers would stop abusing? No, I doubt that would make any difference at all. There is a lot that has to change, and it starts with men...
Jesus Christ, talk about a flawed argument. If the girl stays away, the abuser HAS to stop abusing her because SHE ISN'T THERE. Of course he will try it with other women, but if those other women have learned to spot these guys--usually I can spot them a mile away--they will have an increasingly difficult time finding victims.
It absolutely is a two way street...'It' being the way men & women relate to each other. If we want to end the violence, we have to start with everyone. Starting when we raise the males and females alike from infancy, to respect each other.
I'm not blaming the women. I'm just tired of seeing women blame ALL the men...then in many cases run right back to the beaters.
Saying women should quit running back to men who beat or otherwise abuse them is misogynistic? Bullshit.
I'd say that is the time for those women to do the FULL STOP.
Curiously enough, the first time I ever choked a guy out he started screaming for his girlfriend to help him, that he was trying to kick the shit out of a few minutes before. While he still could anyway. Cops hate domestic violence calls most of all due to the frequency with which the women will attack them when they try to arrest the husband.
Nine times out of ten, the fights I have been in were either to protect women from guys out of control, or dealing with the aftermath of guys getting out of control.
But I'm tired of arguing about this. It's not going to help the 6 victims of the piece of shit murderer from the OP, or the very real problem of abuse.
Maybe we should do this...I can now go back and delete my post that got you going, and all other references to it, which will end this pointlessly divisive argument. Or I can leave it up and we can agree to disagree about semantics, letting the thread get back on course.
oldster
06-05-2014, 06:12 AM
I think the both of you are focusing too much on where you disagree.
Sierra,
Men are a lot of things, Men are murderers rapists, con artists, wife beaters, drug dealers, pimps, thieves, cheaters, losers....
You see, when you say 'Men are' or 'Men should' it takes the power away from your words, primarily because I can say, 'well, that is not true about me, so it is not true, thus your thesis is false'.
Yes, to say 'Men suck' feels good viscerally, but is it a useful statement?
The world you live in is the world you think you live in. It kills me to think that any one of the beautiful women here lives in this guys world, cause it just aint so.
invibe
06-05-2014, 08:45 PM
The heart of what the PUA people teach is basically that women are only happy when they are chasing. When women are being chased they tend to be indecisive and erratic.
In my experience this is mostly true. Unfortunately some men are raised to do exactly the thing that repulses many women, with the best intentions. Meanwhile asshats do what makes many women go to stage five clinger mode by just being deadbeat losers. Biology is a bitch lol.
I don't think this signals any kind of growing disdain for women. Some deseve it, we all know who they are. I am not going to even speculate why this guy did what he did beyond mental illness. There is no rarionale for it.
I find it hilarious the same men stating that bringing up misogyny is completely missing the point about this shooting BUT then they jump thru hoops to bring up women who choose abusive men. Even though, once again, the guy said his hate for women is why he did it. Oh the irony.
Blaming women for men's actions IS misogyny. When a man is murdered people dont talk on and on about the personal responsibility of victim for what happened. Victims of abuse should not be treated any differently. Just like the shooter who blamed women for all the horrible things in his life; abusers AND misogynists blame women for their problems. Women are scapegoats. While men whine and cry about women. Men need to start with personal responsibility for themselves.
If a woman is too confident she is a bitch; if she is too insecure she is playing the victim.
If she has alot of money she slept he way to the top; if she doesnt have much money she must be a gold digger.
If she has an opinion she is "over complicating" the issue; if she doesnt have an opinion she is just an air head.
It gets extremely tiring.
Women can be misogynists too and do the above to each other as well.
The greatest way for both genders to empower women is to stop scapegoating women. Instead of judging them, listening to them.
Djoser
06-06-2014, 03:14 PM
I find it hilarious the same men stating that bringing up misogyny is completely missing the point about this shooting BUT then they jump thru hoops to bring up women who choose abusive men.
...While men whine and cry about women. Men need to start with personal responsibility for themselves.
What fucking hoops? I'd be a blind idiot to miss it, working in the clubs all these years.
No one is absolving the shooter. No one is absolving violent men who abuse women.
But the subject turned from this one sick fuck who used misogyny as an excuse to kill FOUR MEN and two women, to the subject of men abusing women in general.
I do think it was more than typical misogynistic thinking motivating this sick fuck. But in saying so I get these shrill hysterical cries that I am the fucking misogynist??
Then we hear that ALL abuse of women is ALWAYS the fault of ALL men, and this one sick fuck's actions are used to verify the logic--oh and if you disagree or maybe suggest self-protective measures, you are no better than the rapists or the fucking PUA dipshits. Say fucking what?
What I am saying is that women ALSO need to start taking some personal responsibility for themselves. And 'STOP picking abusive men' is right up there on the list.
I don't find it hilarious at all that I have known literally hundreds of women who continuously seek out abusive men, and keep going back to the same ones or ones just like them every fucking time. Over and over again. And it is far more common in this business than outside of it.
There's no jumping through any hoops going on here--no man with any real perception could possibly miss seeing the amazing frequency with which women throw themselves at abusive assholes. But in pointing this out, I am told I am a fucking misogynist?? Despite putting my ass on the line repeatedly to protect them.
I'm trying to tell the women to STOP putting themselves in a subservient position to abusers. They don't have to pick sniveling little crybabies instead, but there are more different kinds of men out there besides the two.
Christ go take a look in Life Support, for years now half the threads are all about how the woman can't seem to stay away from the douchebag. The cherry bright stove burner looks pretty, but it fucking burns like hell. We are supposed to stop putting our fingers on it, not make a habit of it.
If I was a misogynist I would just laugh at them like so many assholes I know do. I certainly would not put my own ass on the line over & over again to defend them from these fuckers--only to watch them go running back to them after things settle down.
I'm not whining or crying about jackshit--I wouldn't have survived a month of my 15 years in the business if I were whining about anything having to do with the women in the clubs. Being a smarmy little pussyboy will get you squashed instantly. :D
It's not all black & white...
Djoser
06-06-2014, 03:44 PM
That being said, I was in the wrong to reply to anyone here 'You are doing this or that (wrong)', or saying 'Don't even think about starting that shit with me.' I would warn myself for that, actually.
I was annoyed at the moment, having just read an anguished FB thread started by a woman who has been running back to the same guy beating her, time & time again--like I've seen happen with so many others. Odds are very good I will have to go up against this guy soon, & he is a monster.
So hearing I am exactly the same as those fucking PUA dipshits, because I advocate self-protective measures, pissed me off.
oldster
06-06-2014, 03:52 PM
Vamp
Do you think that because i disagree with you I am not listening to you?
Is it mutually exclusive to say, 'look both ways before you step off of the curb' and 'hey there are people crossing the street here,slow down?'
Smurfette
06-06-2014, 04:47 PM
I think where it gets frustrating is this: All I ever hear about is how women need to STOP chasing these guys. They need to LEAVE, or stop putting up with it, stop being a victim, stand up for themselves, or otherwise change their behavior to fix their situation. Why is it always the WOMEN who need to change? Why can't the message be directed towards the men instead? The MEN are the ones who need to stop their behavior. Of course, the women DO need to take action and responsibility for themselves as well. However, the ROOT of the problem is in the violence and abuse COMING FROM MEN. Regardless of whether women shun them for their behavior, or "reward" their punches with sex and blowjobs, doesn't really matter because it doesn't address the ROOT PROBLEM, the abuse, that will continue regardless of what women do, unless the man is able to learn, become educated and change his behavior.
As long as people don't talk about it, as long as it's just something that society brushes over with "well some guys are just assholes, can't do anything about that", the more this will continue. There is nothing wrong with bringing the topic up and talking about the misogyny that exists in society and how it contributes to abuse & violence of women. It doesn't always have to circle around to "b-b-b-but WOMEN do bad dumb things too!" because that's not the point.
It's similar to the emphasis being on "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape". So don't get/stay together with an abusive guy? Sure but the real emphasis should be on DON'T ABUSE.
Also, it's telling that in this crime where the killer literally spelled out EXACTLY why he did it, in fact he wrote a really long detailed manifesto about it, revealing his exact motive, and STILL people are like "why is everyone making this about misogyny??" lol really? Because that's what drove him to do it? (of course he was mentally ill, I'm not glossing over that aspect but his hatred of women was still his motive). His intention was to go into a sorority house and shoot everyone inside, but he gave up on that because the door was locked. Otherwise there would be a lot more female victims.
Aniela
06-06-2014, 04:58 PM
Djoser's comparison to the hot stove is a fitting one here. A person who repeatedly touches that red-hot burner can expect what, exactly?
Same w/ a person (MALE OR FEMALE) who keeps going back to an abusive SO. You've been w/ them long enough to know exactly what will happen when they think you overcooked their dinner, or spent too much time getting home from work, or there's a stubborn-ass stain that didn't all come out in the first run thru the laundry, or they just think you looked at them sideways. You(& I mean the general 'you', no one in particular, so just chill for a sec) know what the person will do to you, bc they have done it b4, repeatedly. Is it your fault they are a sodding POS who gets off on abusing others? No it is not. But if you don't stick around, they can't abuse you. Kinda like how walking away from that burner significantly decreases one's chances of getting burnt.
Djoser is not defending abusive ppl at all, or trying to shift the blame soley onto women. Nobody here is, from what I have read. How many threads can you count in Life Support & Ladies Only abt these situations? Too many, & that point is what sm of the guys here were getting at.
My other thought here is that when you strip away everything else, the guy who committed these crimes was a stone-cold whacko. While he came out & broadcasted his misogynistic motives for all the world to hear, I think an important thing to consider is that mental illness is smtg one is born w/, while misogyny & related attitudes are typically learnt. If it hadn't been that, it would have been smtg else. I think a lot of the problem w/ this case was not just his anger at women, but the fact that no effort seems to have been made to lock him up b4 he could cause so much damage. For that, I actually place a lot of the blame on his shrink, who should have committed him & didn't.
simone87
06-06-2014, 05:19 PM
yes women should not continue to date douchebags..but unfortunately its easier said than done. its always easier to see things from a 3rd party perspective. i think every female out there has had that one guy who hasn't treated us the way they should have, that we continued to cling to..sometimes girls grew up with misogynistic fathers or were abused..some are just lonely or insecure. often times sociopathic misogynists are extremely charming, manipulative, and are great lovers until they are certain they've reeled you in. its always frustrating when you can see somebody being fucked around with . i've been dealing with my best friend going through that crap.
but the biggest issue is the men that are abusing. that needs to stop first. that is the root problem. they are the way they are NOT because they are being rewarded. the blame needs to be placed where its due. i find this whole thing to be very uncomfortably close to victim blaming
Aniela
06-06-2014, 05:30 PM
^^^^ So telling a person 'Stop putting your hands on that hot stove!' is victim blaming?
Smurfette
06-06-2014, 05:31 PM
People who are abused are actively being emotionally manipulated and tortured... it's not super easy for them to just up and decide "oh he's mean, time to cut and run". And even if they do, it can be difficult. Abusers CAN be very charming, and reel them back in with sweet talk and whatever else. And people generally want to believe that there is a GOOD man underneath all the abuse so they keep clinging on, hoping that their love will make things better. It's twisted but it is what it is, and these women who are affected by it are VICTIMS above anything else. The abuse will make them act irrational, even though it appears the solution is OBVIOUS to everyone else. Plus many of them are probably afraid that if they leave, they will be beaten or killed. It's very complex and sad, and it's not a black and white issue with an easy answer.
Smurfette
06-06-2014, 05:35 PM
^^^^ So telling a person 'Stop putting your hands on that hot stove!' is victim blaming?
It's about as useful as telling an alcoholic, "Just stop drinking!"
simone87
06-06-2014, 05:40 PM
the stove and the hand are just a lot different than actual human interactions..plus the stove is not in the wrong for being hot. men are in the wrong for being abusive, and until that stops there will always be victims. a lot of them specifically choose girls who are insecure and emotionally broken. the victims think they will change them, and believe them that it will never happen again. even if they don't have a specific victim, in my experience they will lash out or specifically put themselves in positions where they can hurt and punish women.
do i believe that women should stop staying with abusive assholes? yes, it can be infuriating and third party perspective is 20/20. but they aren't to blame for misogynistic abusive men.
Djoser
06-06-2014, 05:40 PM
...it's not a black and white issue with an easy answer.
It sure isn't.
And I absolutely never meant to say that men are free from responsibility. I loathe and abhor abusive men and have fought several of them as a direct result of their abusive behavior.
There are also plenty of weak men who fall for manipulative deceitful, abusive women--though the abuse isn't generally physical but mental. Some of them never learn either & keep going back to the same types.
What fucking hoops? I'd be a blind idiot to miss it, working in the clubs all these years.
No one is absolving the shooter. No one is absolving violent men who abuse women.
But the subject turned from this one sick fuck who used misogyny as an excuse to kill FOUR MEN and two women, to the subject of men abusing women in general.
.
We feel the same kind of frustration because every time a woman is raped or murdered people scream SHE SHOULD OF DONE THIS, SHE SHOULDNT OF WORN THAT, ETC. That never happens when something bad happens to a man. I am so sick of it I could puke.
What you are seeing as a cause is actually a symptom of misogyny. When I talk about misogyny i am talking about it from a cultural and societal perspective. When girls grow up in abusive environments and then society tells them their ONLY value is their looks and relationships it creates a vacuum in a woman's life. Women being attracted to men who arent worth their time is because they really dont believe they are worth more or they think that is what love is. Their value becomes based on how much they will endure for their man. I grew up surrounded by these women and learned the hard way.
The other issue being missed is... a woman can do everything right.. she can dress modestly, she can date healthy men who support her, etc... and still get raped, verbally abused, etc.
I know some women who live in cities that literally travel gauntlets of street harassment just to get to work. One girl recently got killed because she declined to go to prom with some boy.
Good guys have no damn clue how much bullshit women go thru. The reason why they dont know is because they refuse to listen. They just scream it isnt them and women shoulda, coulda, woulda.
Vamp
Do you think that because i disagree with you I am not listening to you?
Is it mutually exclusive to say, 'look both ways before you step off of the curb' and 'hey there are people crossing the street here,slow down?'
If someone is saying "you should of looked both ways" after someone has been run over, laying bloody in the street...... no they arent paying attention or listening to that person's suffering. It means that person's ego is more important that the others suffering.
If I am walking with someone and they grab my arm before I step down and says to me "you should look both ways"... they are looking out for me.
There is a HUGE difference between the two.
I also think alot of miscommunication between the sexes is because of the assholes ALL women endure.
One of my good male friends and I talk about this alot. For example, he gets pissed off because women dont respond to his emails on dating sites. He thinks they are being stuck up bitches.
I explain to him the reason why women do this. If a woman emails back she isnt interested many men become overly persistent, insanely aggressive, or even start online stalking. They cant accept a no. But for some reason if you ignore them it diffuses the situation. More often then not they let it go.
I told him the best thing to do is try to start a conversation about something on her profile instead of asking her out, her phone number, etc.
That is just one example of the endless tactics we use to avoid bullshit by assholes.
Djoser
06-06-2014, 07:18 PM
Good guys have no damn clue how much bullshit women go thru. The reason why they dont know is because they refuse to listen. They just scream it isnt them and women shoulda, coulda, woulda.
I'm not a 'good guy'. Nowhere near it, by the definition of the majority of society.
I DO see how much bullshit they go through, the bruises, the tears, the police reports, my having to fight their dipshit loser men...
But hearing in this thread how absolutely vital it is that I (and all other men) change my thinking...while the poor girls who just couldn't stay away from the guys that beat shit out of them...because they are great in bed, they actually do have a good side, & they are just so irresistible...its not the women's fault at all, but rather the fault of all men everywhere?? I don't buy it, sorry.
It's about as useful as telling an alcoholic, "Just stop drinking!"
Nonetheless, the alcoholic MUST stop drinking, because otherwise their life will be destroyed. In Drug Dependence terms, what is going on here is 'Enabling' on a massive scale. By this logic, it's not the alcoholic's responsibility to resist drinking, he just cannot help himself. Apparently it's never the woman's fault that anything bad ever happened to her, even if she picks nothing but felons and guys she knows has been kicking the shit out of other women. She just cannot resist the cherry red burner.
I have known so damned many of those women, because there are so many working the clubs that it makes me ill. I will still defend them from the assholes, in & out of work, but I hate the fact that they find it so goddamned easy to get into these situations.
It's NOT just the men who have to change their way of thinking, in order to stop the violence...
Djoser
06-06-2014, 07:33 PM
Men and women both need to change their thinking.
simone87
06-06-2014, 07:41 PM
how is not just the men who need to stop the violence is they are the one perpetrating it?? totally confused. like i said, even if these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, you think they'd stop their violence and misogyny? not a chance. and i agree that both men and women need to change..the patriarchy is harmful to both. it teaches men that they should always want sex and look at women as objects and that only pussies don't degrade women..and it teaches women that their highest calling is to find a man and not to be an "old maid" whatever the cost.
Yes because if every man on earth never abused another women ever again...... it would never change anything .....
Kellydancer
06-06-2014, 10:30 PM
I see both sides but from the perspective of a former victim. I had been in an emotionally abusive relationship in my 20's and knew it was destructive. I have no doubt it would have become physical had I stayed. The reason I stayed to begin with was this idea that without a man I was worthless. Eventually I did leave, once I realized it was causing me pain. Because I saw what was happening I have avoided any relationships like this. However I knew I deserved better so I left. Right now I have a friend having an alcoholic issue and he knew he needed to change his life otherwise it would kill him.
I don't blame the victim but it can be exasperating trying to help someone leave an abusive partner only to have her return because he apologized. This happened where I tried to help my former best friend leave her abusive partner, only to have her defend him against me in court.
charlotte.
06-07-2014, 12:53 AM
I totally agree with simone.
Here in Missouri, a man who was a known neo nazi killed a group of people. None of these people were jewish. He was shouting racial slurs when he carried out the murder. It is being treated like a hate crime.
Here is a guy who hated women, wrote about it, made videos about it, even wrote that he was going to kill people because of his hatred of women YET people will scream mental illness. I have seen some get so upset when you say it is hatred of women they almost defend him. All murders are mentally ill. All murders still have different motives.
On twitter there has been a hashtag #yesallwomen. It was from a statement he said "i hate women, yes all women". The hashtag is where women share how they have been harassed, raped, or disbelieved because of misogyny.
Men feel entitled to women because of the shit they are fed in the media and the fact they the law doesnt hold them accountable. The victims become shamed and blamed.
It is the same type of mentality the guy who bit SwanPrincess's nipple during a lap dance so bad it got infected. What kind of sick fuck feels so entitled that he just bits someone randomly? I dont care how aroused he is! He was an entitled prick who didnt care what happened to her or what he was even doing.
Just because assholes piss me off does not mean I think all men are this way. Why is that always mentioned? Yet when men bitch about gold diggers people just agree with him....
this is just one of the spot on posts you have made throughout this thread. i wish i could piece them all together and stick them on top of this thread.
this thread was specifically framed with those links to bring about a discussion of misogyny, gender relations, and violence. so for all the ppl saying that everyone is getting off track with their hysterical emotional responses or w/e, um, thats the point of this thread. if ppl want to talk about the victims families, the local businesses affected, the caliber of the handgun or whatever you think is more relevant, then maybe a separate thread or threads can be made.
i just read through this thread all at once and its shocking how typical it played out. there are 2 separate views arguing against each other amongst the minimal background noise. not surprising one is all female and the other is all male.
heres a gender studies (what should be real life studies) 101 concept: mansplaining.
men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.
which segues into another 101 concept thats a little more direct: check your privilege. everyone has privelege in some areas and lacks in others. men(particularly white men) obviously have privelege none of us women have but it extends further than that. socioecomic status, race, education, history, all play into your relative privelege. so plz, white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,
i wish i could contribute more but the mra level is just out of control and i dont have the ability to explain the entire history of flawed gender relations. thankfully vamps doing a.really good fucking job here so i just wanted to say thanks again for restoring some sanity.
charlotte.
06-07-2014, 12:56 AM
also how fucking bizarre is it that we can still be slut shamed on a site exclusively for strippers? wtf??
oldster
06-07-2014, 05:23 AM
i
men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.
Yes, I shall proceed to sit down shut up and move to the back of the bus
seriously?
I don't see where any man is trying to tell you what your experiences are.
What I do see is actually a little more of a nuanced conversation than you are seeing
Having a conversation usually involves multiple perspectives, and saying that the one true perspective is the only one and that everyone should sit and listen seems a bit, well, patriarchal doesn't it?
I don't happen to agree with all of what DJ is posting, but I think he has a point, and it is not the only point, just as you have a point, but it is not the only one.
Part of the reason to have a conversation is to convince and persuade someone who has an alternative point of view the validity of your own view, and perhaps on occasion to be convinced yourself.
For one of the parties to 'be quiet,listen' is not a conversation,it is a lecture.
oldster
06-07-2014, 05:34 AM
If someone is saying "you should of looked both ways" after someone has been run over, laying bloody in the street...... no they arent paying attention or listening to that person's suffering. It means that person's ego is more important that the others suffering.
If I am walking with someone and they grab my arm before I step down and says to me "you should look both ways"... they are looking out for me.
There is a HUGE difference between the two.
So I happen to tell a few women[who happen to be under 4 feet tall] to look both ways pretty much every damn day, and they don't always listen, and you bet your ass if they get hit I will give them a lecture about it.
ANd yes there is a HUGE difference, and DJ was particularly talking about getting women to avoid the situation in advance[look both ways] because he is frequently the one cleaning the blood off of the street after the accident.
Djoser
06-07-2014, 06:48 AM
if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.
...white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,
...restoring some sanity.
I am not a hobbyist, I am a man who has spent 15 years dealing directly with the violence towards women, which is much more common in the stripping industry than out of it. I have gone up against guys that would have your average dude pissing himself, in order to protect the women.
Advising women to stop falling for violent woman beating felons is neither being a 'bad ally', nor is it insanity. Insanity is far more likely to be defined as going back time & time again to the same beater, or worse yet one sadistic fuck after another. But in either case the word is not appropriate.
This is not slut shaming. This is saying 'Don't think with your pussy, especially if that gets you beaten regularly.' Same as with the guys who always pick manipulative bitches who take all their money & fuck their friends. They could simply blame the women, & some do--but they are dead wrong--it's a two way street.
I really dislike arguing with Vamp in particular, you have always been one of my favorites.
But there is no way I can sit for fifteen years, sometimes laying my ass on the line for the women, then watching them run back to these same kinds of sadistic guys. And then hear how it's only the men who need to change their thinking?
Not without trying to persuade them to protect themselves.
If no woman ever again rewarded the patriarchal male dominance behavior patterns, how long do you think they would last?
These sick woman beating fucks infuriate me, or you wouldn't find me going up against a guy a woman has run back to 6-7 times. I am sure as shit not trying to excuse anything in their behavior, if I am fighting the fucking guys. :D
Ordinarily I try to stay out of these threads, but it just so happened I have been dealing with three girls in a fucking week running back to dominant, abusive men.
:O
how is not just the men who need to stop the violence is they are the one perpetrating it?? totally confused. like i said, even if these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, you think they'd stop their violence and misogyny? not a chance. and i agree that both men and women need to change..the patriarchy is harmful to both. it teaches men that they should always want sex and look at women as objects and that only pussies don't degrade women..and it teaches women that their highest calling is to find a man and not to be an "old maid" whatever the cost.
You answered your own question. The patriarchy would not last another day if no woman anywhere bought into this bullshit anymore. If these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, hell fucking no they couldn't beat their own girlfriends!
Women raise children as much as or more than the men. Behavior patterns begin in infancy, and are then encouraged to a tremendous extent by the media--especially television--and peer pressure. Women have as much power to change the behavior patterns as the men do.
Djoser
06-07-2014, 06:57 AM
Maybe this will help defuse the needless back & forth. I fucking love this scene. It's better in the book (of course). I have read all three and they are all excellent. The original title of 'Girl With The Dragon Tattoo' was 'Men Who Hate Women'. Stieg Larsson's SO says he would have hated the American title, and I'm inclined to agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu8_ttXT4J8
Smurfette
06-07-2014, 07:20 AM
Elliot Rodgers couldn't find a girlfriend, and look what happened. If these abusive guys couldn't find girlfriends or get laid, they would likely take out their anger on the women who reject them.
Elliot Rodgers couldn't find a girlfriend, and look what happened. If these abusive guys couldn't find girlfriends or get laid, they would likely take out their anger on the women who reject them.
^^^^^ This this and more this
I really dislike arguing with Vamp in particular, you have always been one of my favorites.
These sick woman beating fucks infuriate me, or you wouldn't find me going up against a guy a woman has run back to 6-7 times. I am sure as shit not trying to excuse anything in their behavior, if I am fighting the fucking guys. :D
Ordinarily I try to stay out of these threads, but it just so happened I have been dealing with three girls in a fucking week running back to dominant, abusive men.
DJ I am not arguing with you. You are one of my favs as well :) But I am just pointing out what my perspective.
I grew up in an abusive family. My one aunt has been in an abusive marriage for 40 years. She screams, she cries, she leaves, and she goes back. I have watched it a thousand times. It took ALOT of work on my part not to go down that road. Hard hard grueling soul wrenching work. But I did it. I am sure this issue is personal to all of us answering it for many different reasons. It is a trigger for alot of us.
37794
men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.
check your privilege. everyone has privelege in some areas and lacks in others. men(particularly white men) obviously have privilege none of us women have but it extends further than that. socioecomic status, race, education, history, all play into your relative privelege. so plz, white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,
i wish i could contribute more but the mra level is just out of control and i dont have the ability to explain the entire history of flawed gender relations. thankfully vamps doing a.really good fucking job here so i just wanted to say thanks again for restoring some sanity.
Thanks but you added alot too. It takes all women raising their voice in this discussion.
In case you dont know how to check your privilege ........ CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE LEVEL WITH THIS EASY TEST (http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/)
37796
simone87
06-07-2014, 10:58 AM
You answered your own question. The patriarchy would not last another day if no woman anywhere bought into this bullshit anymore. If these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, hell fucking no they couldn't beat their own girlfriends!
Women raise children as much as or more than the men. Behavior patterns begin in infancy, and are then encouraged to a tremendous extent by the media--especially television--and peer pressure. Women have as much power to change the behavior patterns as the men do.
they wouldn't beat their own girlfriends but like i've said before..it wouldnt change their mindsets. they'd still harass, rape, and put themselves in positions where they could talk down to and abuse women. my boss is one of them.
we are in agreement that women need to change their mindsets too , especially with how a lot of them are misogynistic as well! but it won't stop women-hating men from , well .....hating women.
eagle2
06-07-2014, 10:55 PM
Here's one take on how modern men are trained to hate women:
www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html
charlotte.
06-08-2014, 03:16 AM
Yes, I shall proceed to sit down shut up and move to the back of the bus
seriously?
I just love it when men compare themselves to black civil rights activists while they mansplain. without fail, they always do it!!!
thanks vamp for that amazing not all drivers pic. completely made up for all of the icky posts before yours. im saving it to my phone.